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Battle takes place in U2's tour bus

Force sabers all out

What has Vandar done besides be the leader of the Dantooine Jedi Council and survive the razing of the temple?

However, he still should be safely above the incredibly weak Kanan Jarrus, so yeah.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/11122/111220339/4807203-star_wars_kanan_9_cover.png

Originally posted by Jmanghan
However, he still should be safely above the incredibly weak Kanan Jarrus, so yeah.

"Incredibly weak"?



He's got some great force feats in AND and he has defeated the Grand Inquisitor in a duel.

Kanan was able to move that big rock spiral in Rebels and also TK'd some AT-ST's. Although Vandar should beat him.

Vandar Tokare have not been depicted in combat situations so it is difficult to infer about his combat prowess. He is officially strong in the Force, capable of impressive feats and became the Grand Jedi Master of the Order in an era when Jedi were renowned for their competence. He is depicted conjuring a storm while meditating mid-air. Nothing much else.

He conjured up a storm?

Nope. Just lifted some pebbles.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/b7/Vandar_Tokare_CG.jpg

I had a feeling he was referring to that. Eh it doesn't matter, Vandar should have power-scaling going for him. Well, that's assuming Jedi/Sith of the KOTOR era did stuff like what Kanan did.

Vandar should be at least equal if not greater than Lucien Draay, Kanan gets schooled.

Originally posted by ares834
"Incredibly weak"?



He's got some great force feats in AND and he has defeated the Grand Inquisitor in a duel. He's still not even close to the top tier's.

Vader manhandled him and Ezra effortlessly, it was hilarious watching them trying to put up a fight.

I was kinda surprised when they pushed him back... till I remembered he was COMPLETELY distracted, and they didn't even push him that far.

He beat the Grand Inquisitor because of a few things, Jar'Kai, and circumstance.

The Inquisitor was literally a single step from dying, had he stepped back, he would've died, he had no room to move, what was he supposed to do? Jump over Kanan and risk getting sliced in half?

Secondly, everytime a combatant gets a hold of a second lightsaber, they SOMEHOW have this epic dueling skill, Sidious and Padawan Anakin, Ahsoka, and many others.

So what makes him "incredibly weak"? Or were you just talking out your ass like usual?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vandar should be at least equal if not greater than Lucien Draay,.

Why?

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Just lifted some pebbles.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/b7/Vandar_Tokare_CG.jpg


You can see the winds blowing and a large number of rocks being lifted in the back. The photo presents a distorted view of things.

Maybe storm is a strong word but it is something.

Originally posted by ares834
So what makes him "incredibly weak"? Or were you just talking out your ass like usual?



Why? What has Kanan done that is impressive besides moving some rocks, and beating the inquisitor?

Both these feats don't put him above Tokare.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vandar Tokare have not been depicted in combat situations so it is difficult to infer about his combat prowess. He is officially strong in the Force, capable of impressive feats and became the Grand Jedi Master of the Order in an era when Jedi were renowned for their competence. He is depicted conjuring a storm while meditating mid-air. Nothing much else.

He's not confirmed as the Order's Grand Master, but he's confirmed as one of the Order's most powerful beings and he's more powerful than Vrook etc.

On top of that, he knows Sever Force, so he probably wins via that here lol

Originally posted by ares834
Why?

Being called one of the most renowned and venerable Masters in the entire Jedi Order. Coupled with Bastila calling him and the others the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and even his own Council members calling him their wisest.

He's clearly the most knowledgeable and wisest in the Order to boot, Lucien Draay whilst having been a Jedi High Council member once still deferred to his betters.

There is also the fact Master Vandar not only survived the Sith attack on Dantooine but escaped and led the Order from that point onwards.

Lucien Draay is the most solid depiction of any KOTOR Jedi Master and so he is for me a good benchmark to rank the others by.

Quite simply, none of that indicates Vandar is Lucein's equal in battle. Wiser sure, but more powerful... Eh.

I also find it curious that you use Lucien as the benchmark for KotOR Jedi Masters rather than any of the other members in the Taris Enclave.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Being called one of the most renowned and venerable Masters in the entire Jedi Order. Coupled with Bastila calling him and the others the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and even his own Council members calling him their wisest.

Where do they call him the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy?

Bastila calls all of the Dantooine enclave masters some of the most powerful in the galaxy.

Ah, I misread it.

Do you have a video link so I don't have to find this myself?

Originally posted by ares834
Quite simply, none of that indicates Vandar is Lucein's equal in battle. Wiser sure, but more powerful... Eh.

I also find it curious that you use Lucien as the benchmark for KotOR Jedi Masters rather than any of the other members in the Taris Enclave.

I never said it did but the obvious portrayal of him being the Order's leader implies he is the top amongst them all.

Eh, he's a good enough indication.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ah, I misread it.

Do you have a video link so I don't have to find this myself?

I don't have a link but I am 99% sure that she says it on the way to Dantooine.

Alright. I'll find it later.

And Vandar's confirmed to be above Vrook, Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell in power.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Eh, he's a good enough indication.

I just have no clue how you are assuming that he can serve as the benchmark. Frankly, Lucien seems to be high tier considering how badly he humiliated other Jedi in practice duels.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Alright. I'll find it later.

And Vandar's confirmed to be above Vrook, Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell in power.

The exact quote:

"Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place." - Bastila

Originally posted by ares834
I just have no clue how you are assuming that he can serve as the benchmark. Frankly, Lucien seems to be high tier considering how badly he humiliated other Jedi in practice duels.

I mean that he serves as great indication for the likes of Vandar and Atris.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The exact quote:

"Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place." - Bastila

Thanks.

Vandar should take it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Alright. I'll find it later.

And Vandar's confirmed to be above Vrook, Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell in power.

Wait when is this stated?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Wait when is this stated?

It's stated that only the most powerful Jedi went to Katarr, including Vandar.

Then again, logically, that's pretty stupid, since I doubt those no-namers who went to Katarr were above the likes of Vrook, who is already confirmed as one of the most powerful Jedi of his time.

Still, just based on portrayals in KotOR alone, Vandar seems to be at least equal to Vrook in raw power. Also, I believe he's the highest opponent in the training arena mod? I know it's not canon, but it's probably somewhat indicative of combat skill.

Either way, Vandar probably wins via telekinetic domination or Severing Kanan's connection to the Force. And if it came to a duel, I'd still support Vandar, probably with ease.

Bump

Vandar is in the top 5 Jedi of his time honestly, and if one of the bove claims is true (Vandar being GM of the order) that would indicate that he's incredibly powerful. I would back Vandar.

Vandar wins. He's more powerful than the likes of Vrook, who would easily manhandle Kanan with the Force.

Kanan easily.

EU Jedi Masters are noted for knowing/being more powerful than few Jedi Knights can even dream of comprehending. That, plus Vandar's accolades of being one of the greatest Jedi of the era, extreme versatility, other hype and implied power, etc. should all put him above diet-Rahm Kota.

Cool. Give me one of his accomplishments that rival Kanan's.

Diet-Rahm Kota lmfao

But yeah, Vandar's canonically more powerful than Vrook, who's hurled DS Exile + 2 DS companions (potentially the Force sensitive ones, who are each more powerful than Kanan if they've absorbed Freedon Nadd's power). Vandar pretty much curbs with the Force.

Quote for Vandar being more powerful then Vrook.

Also DS exile? Meaning Darkside Exile and thus a non canon scene?

Also what feats have the force sensitive companions accomplished that puts them on level with Kanan?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Quote for Vandar being more powerful then Vrook.

Here:



Vandar went, Vrook didn't. Ergo, Vandar fits the bill as the most powerful Jedi, and Vrook apparently doesn't.

That, and the fact that Vandar's essentially analogous to Yoda for the KotOR era and is a stated leader of the Council. Not that either inherently mean he's more powerful than the others, but based on holistic portrayal, that's easily inferred.



Non-canon in that it doesn't happen in the official timeline, not that it's outside of Vrook's powers. In fact, the only difference in DS in terms of power is that the Exile and whoever her two companions are (assuming they're Force-sensitive and not Kreia) get stronger.

And if we're using Canon, Vrook places the Exile in Stasis during her second visit to Dantooine, even if she tries to resist.



Well, Visas incapacitates the Exile's entire crew with the Force before she fights the Exile, and she would've only grown exponentially since joining the Exile. There's also her fighting through armies of Dark Jedi/Sith on Dxun with two other companions, before striking down 3 Sith Lords and absorbing the power of Freedon Nadd which had been extracted by a ritual (the ritual was so powerful that breaking it instantly killed a fourth Sith Lord).

And that's just one of them. Provided that there's another of roughly the same power level, and then the Exile herself, Vrook hurling them all into a wall with enough force to stun them long enough for him to escape is pretty good.

That seems like a highly suspect base for your assumption. Isn't it possible Vrook was on a mission at the time or was otherwise occupied or that not all of the powerful Jedi were on planet at the time?

If it didn't happen within the official timeline it's not usable. That's Vrook's feat, correct? We're discussing Vandar meaning unless you buy into the reasoning for Vandar being more powerful then Vrook because Vandar was not on Katarr it doesn't have any bearing on Vandar's capabilities.

Given its a non canon scene it doesn't really matter though even if it wasn't we couldn't assume it was her two force sensitive companions anyways.

So aside from non canon cutscenes and wonky power scaling logic does Vandar actually have anything?

Originally posted by SunRazer
That, and the fact that Vandar's essentially analogous to Yoda for the KotOR era and is a stated leader of the Council. Not that either inherently mean he's more powerful than the others, but based on holistic portrayal, that's easily inferred.

Actually, being the leader of the Council, and through that the Order, does require you to be the greatest amongst the Jedi.

Now granted this isn't always the case -- Barsen'Thor/Hero of Tython and Satele Shan are two exceptions -- but judging the rule by the exception would be an anecdotal fallacy, so it shouldn't apply to Vandar.

Isn't that also the case with the Jedi leadership during the Russaan War? I mean, Raskta and Hoth were likely the best Jedi combatants of their era correct? IIRC Hoth was just the general of the Jedi forces and I don't really Raskta having any special position in the Jedi Order other then being a battle master and former lightsaber instructor.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That seems like a highly suspect base for your assumption. Isn't it possible Vrook was on a mission at the time or was otherwise occupied or that not all of the powerful Jedi were on planet at the time?

I don't think any mission would take precedence over trying to find out where the Sith threat came from.



It is if it's an accurate reflection of the character's abilities. Vrook doesn't magically grow in power because of some storyline changes, lol.



Whether it's a holistic approach or that quote, Vandar looks to be more powerful than Vrook. Vandar's leadership of the Council only adds more credence to that approach. There's a couple of indications of Vandar's supremacy - you can argue that each of these indications isn't concrete, but given just how many there are, I think it makes a solid case overall.



No, but unless there's something directly stopping us from doing so, we can assume that it was two Force sensitives. This isn't about what actually happened, this is about what can happen. So we can assume the best scenario in this event unless there's something prohibiting it (for instance, I wouldn't assume that Kreia was in the party since she utterly curbs Vrook with the Force later on). Barring that, there's no evidential upper limit to Vrook's power, so he could well have done it to two Jedi companions as much as he could've done it to two non-Force sensitives. I'm taking the upper feat because he can do it, not because he canonically did it.

And considering your counterargument to my first point was to rely on speculation for the benefit of your own argument, that you're disallowing me to do so here is a double standard.

But if we're using LS, then once again, Vrook's placed the Exile in Stasis, even if she tried to resist.



Well, he has "vast telekinetic powers", is one of the most powerful Jedi of the time, is called "legendary", and has Force knowledge/mastery that's well out of Kanan's league.

Grandmaster vs Shit Padawan. Toughie.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't think any mission would take precedence over trying to find out where the Sith threat came from.



It is if it's an accurate reflection of the character's abilities. Vrook doesn't magically grow in power because of some storyline changes, lol.



Whether it's a holistic approach or that quote, Vandar looks to be more powerful than Vrook. Vandar's leadership of the Council only adds more credence to that approach. There's a couple of indications of Vandar's supremacy - you can argue that each of these indications isn't concrete, but given just how many there are, I think it makes a solid case overall.



No, but unless there's something directly stopping us from doing so, we can assume that it was two Force sensitives. This isn't about what actually happened, this is about what can happen. So we can assume the best scenario in this event unless there's something prohibiting it (for instance, I wouldn't assume that Kreia was in the party since she utterly curbs Vrook with the Force later on). Barring that, there's no evidential upper limit to Vrook's power, so he could well have done it to two Jedi companions as much as he could've done it to two non-Force sensitives. I'm taking the upper feat because he can do it, not because he canonically did it.

And considering your counterargument to my first point was to rely on speculation for the benefit of your own argument, that you're disallowing me to do so here is a double standard.

But if we're using LS, then once again, Vrook's placed the Exile in Stasis, even if she tried to resist.



Well, he has "vast telekinetic powers", is one of the most powerful Jedi of the time, is called "legendary", and has Force knowledge/mastery that's well out of Kanan's league.

Not saying it takes precedence but if it would have been an impossibility for Vrook to be there say similar to Yoda having been on Kashyyyk when Mace was gathering a strike team of Jedi to face Sidious then his missing presence would have made sense. Even if that wasn't the case though it seems unlikely that every single powerful Jedi in the Order had gathered there. Again harkening back to RotS Mace left powerful Jedi like Shaak back at the temple to help defend it in case he and the other Jedi were to fail in their objective.

You could try to logically assume he'd be capable of such based his other feats but not on the basis that it occurred in a non canon cutscene that has no bearing on the canon timeline.

I can respect your position but I ultimately have to disagree based on the level that would be scaling him to which is unsupported by any of his other showings.

I'm not questioning your stance as I understand it and use similar reasoning for certain views I myself possess. I'm simply explaining why I don't agree with it.

Can I get the quote for "one of the most powerful Jedi of all time?"

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Isn't that also the case with the Jedi leadership during the Russaan War? I mean, Raskta and Hoth were likely the best Jedi combatants of their era correct? IIRC Hoth was just the general of the Jedi forces and I don't really Raskta having any special position in the Jedi Order other then being a battle master and former lightsaber instructor.

No, because Hoth was a general, not a Grandmaster. To be a general, you need to be a better tactitian. To be a Grandmaster/leader of the Order, you need to be the wisest and most powerful.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Grandmaster vs Shit Padawan. Toughie.

Excuse me? How is Kanan shit when his feats are better then half the named characters in Star Wars? :/

Originally posted by MythLord
No, because Hoth was a general, not a Grandmaster. To be a general, you need to be a better tactitian. To be a Grandmaster/leader of the Order, you need to be the wisest and most powerful.

I believe PoD notes that nearly all the Jedi and Sith gathered on Russan to settle the conflict once and for all. It seems like something the Grandmaster of the Order would be present for. Kaan always mentions Hoth as being his counterpart and main adversary whenever musing about the Jedi forces. You'd think if the GM had been a more powerful individual ( and thus logically a greater threat to Kaan and the Brotherhood ) that's who Kaan's thoughts would have been focused on and that he would have been mentioned by Kaan or one of the Sith during the Broterhood meetings. Then in RoT a team of the most powerful and skilled Jedi are sent to permanently end the Sith by destroying Bane and Zannah. None of the members are noted as having possessed any special rank within the Order.

Except the Bane era is full of some of the shittest Jedi and Sith in the entire mythos, when Kotor is canonically the height of Jedi combat prowess.

This was simply about how rank in the Jedi Order doesn't nessecarily beget power.

Can I get the quote for KOTOR being the height of combat prowess for its time?

If the Grandmaster was present on the Battle of Ruusan, then he's probably not the best tactitian as Hoth was the general.

Not that battlefield tactics equal your strength in the Force...

Originally posted by Selenial
mythos, when Kotor is canonically the height of Jedi combat prowess.

Originally posted by MythLord
If the Grandmaster was present on the Battle of Ruusan, then he's probably not the best tactitian as Hoth was the general.

Not that battlefield tactics equal your strength in the Force...

I'm saying that if the GM was as great a threat to Kaan and the rest of the Brotherhood as Hoth you think he would have been mentioned or gone on the mission to defeat Bane and Zannah.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Can I get the quote for KOTOR being the height of combat prowess for its time?

"Even more so than the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

"The many wars of the era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and force related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists capable of taking on Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat. "

"During this time, the Jedi Order is at the height of it's power and self confidence"

Which is why KOTOR has tons of amazing swordsmen, oh wait

Originally posted by Selenial
"Even more so than the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

"The many wars of the era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and force related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists capable of taking on Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat. "

"During this time, the Jedi Order is at the height of it's power and self confidence"

Source?

Originally posted by carthage
Which is why KOTOR has tons of amazing swordsmen, oh wait

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Your debating is farcical, as always.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Source?

Kotor CG.

Fair enough then.

Originally posted by Selenial
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Your debating is farcical, as always.



Kotor CG.

And you're using a game quote against Lucas who already established the PT was the prime of the Jedi. Which is why numerous quotes refer to even mid tier swordsmen as the best of the Orders History, and why the higher ups like Mace, Anakin, Yoda, Kenobi, Dooku would stomp the shitty KOTOR Jedi with ease. The whole council could probably solo the entire era of awful Jedi, when the best they could give was Meetra Surik

Lol @ the KOTOR era being full of shitty duelists and Surik being the best they could offer. Revan>>>>>>>>Surik, or did you forget about Revan?

Ah, nope.