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Morals on

Fight takes place in the forest where Iron Man and Thor fought in A1, but its day time.

20 meters distance between each combatant

All out

Who wins?

HoT is outclassed. Anakin vs. Dooku depends on the day. If it's prime RotS in best mindset then Anakin wins.

Originally posted by JKBart
HoT is outclassed. I thought you were cool

Anakin wins

Anakin destroys, lel.

Originally posted by Sinious
I thought you were cool

I have Hitler portrait above my bed

Anakin wins. HoT in particular gets steamrolled.

Originally posted by JKBart
I have Hitler portrait above my bed this just supports my point :/

If Anakin taps into dark side he wins

Originally posted by Sinious
this just supports my point :/

Hitler pulled Germany out of the greatest depression of it's history and turned it into one of the world's top military powers in the span of a few years. A great leader, to be sure.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hitler pulled Germany out of the greatest depression of it's history and turned it into one of the world's top military powers in the span of a few years. A great leader, to be sure. that and he just killed whoever he disliked and people kept on digging his vibe. I think that's hard to top. Not to mention, he didn't even start anti-semitism in Germany, it was there like 50 years before his rule. Also, you guys should give HoT some more credit. Vitiate was still extremely powerful when HoT killed him.

HoT didn't even kill him.

Hero of Tython, IMO.

Originally posted by JKBart
HoT is outclassed.
No

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
HoT didn't even kill him. His victory was decisive enough to stop the ritual and kill Vitaite's Voice, forcing his essence to go into hiding until Revan brings him back. I'd call that a solid win.

Tbh not sure here. I'm assuming prime incarnations for all (so pre Fallen Empire HoT since it's not the Outlander) so it's close. Really torn, don't see any huge arguments for any besting the others. Since it's morals on then HoT and Anakin probably team up against Dooku and shit on him.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hitler pulled Germany out of the greatest depression of it's history and turned it into one of the world's top military powers in the span of a few years. A great leader, to be sure.

He also killed Hitler. Great guy

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hitler pulled Germany out of the greatest depression of it's history and turned it into one of the world's top military powers in the span of a few years. Not to mention the fact that he personally killed one of the most infamous tyrants of the last few centuries. A great leader, to be sure.

Fixed.

Originally posted by Sinious
His victory was decisive enough to stop the ritual and kill Vitaite's Voice, forcing his essence to go into hiding until Revan brings him back. I'd call that a solid win.
Given KotFE is a thing, along with Ziost, I seriously doubt just about everything involving Vitiate and anyone combating him directly. The HoT can't even face his children, so Vitiate obviously wasn't uber-powerful in the Dark Temple.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Given KotFE is a thing, along with Ziost, I seriously doubt just about everything involving Vitiate and anyone combating him directly. The HoT can't even face his children, so Vitiate obviously wasn't uber-powerful in the Dark Temple. He was factually powerful enough to bring down a huge portion of the dark temple, even after he was struck down, which tells us Vitiate was at least that powerful when HoT faced him. Not to mention Vitiate was indeed trying to successfully finalize that ritual, so I'm sure he everything in his arsenal to stop the guy who was there to ruin something Vitty prepped for more than a thousand years. HoT still defeated him despite Vitiate's display of raw power under even shittier circumstances right after the fight.

HoT

Originally posted by Sinious
He was factually powerful enough to bring down a huge portion of the dark temple, even after he was struck down, which tells us Vitiate was at least that powerful when HoT faced him. Not to mention Vitiate was indeed trying to successfully finalize that ritual, so I'm sure he everything in his arsenal to stop the guy who was there to ruin something Vitty prepped for more than a thousand years. HoT still defeated him despite Vitiate's display of raw power under even shittier circumstances right after the fight.

Yet he needed 6 more people to beat a Vader level opponent...

Vitiate is factually powerful, Zoltan.

Originally posted by Sinious
He was factually powerful enough to bring down a huge portion of the dark temple, even after he was struck down, which tells us Vitiate was at least that powerful when HoT faced him.
Not only does it not meant that, you'd also have to show Vitiate actually was bringing that full power against the HoT. But considering we already know the HoT can't face opponents in Anakin's tier on his own, not matching up in strength and being casually TK'd, the point is moot anyway.

That ritual he already failed, that we have no idea what it would actually do? I'm guessing it's not kill the galaxy since that would be counterproductive to ruling it with his Eternal Empire.

Which would be cool if the HoT overpowered Vitiate in the Force instead of just letting him walking into his lightsaber. And considering how Vitiate feels no pain, and he was being released from his body, I'm wondering what these shittier circumstances are.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yet he needed 6 more people to beat a Vader level opponent... So no matter what feats HoT has, you still lowball him cause you think Revan and Vader must be on the same level? Sounds legit.

Nah but really, what credentials, other than defeating an incarnation of Vitiate of unquantifiable strength, does the HoT have that puts him above Dooku or Anakin?

Being the strongest Jedi in TOR for most of the game for one, and continually getting more and more powerful. The HoT has more or less the best credentials out of all the protags, when all of the Force using ones measure up to Anakin and Dooku.

Also the Outlander gives Arcann a decent fight, despite the carbonite damage and it's not suggested that Arcann can casually TK them.

I never said he is above them. I just disagreed with people saying he is outclassed or doesn't even belong in this fight. HoT was considered the order's finest way before his prime. Now we know HoT and Wrath are both melee focused combatants where Nox and Thor are more force oriented. So despite the fact that his best insceen showings are defensive force powers, one can logically understand that HoT is more of a duelist, as supported by swtor.com and the game itself of course "combining the foresight of the Force with unrivaled reflexes and practiced physical precision, the Knight turns combat into an art form, gracefully executing acrobatic feats in tandem with elegant lightsaber tactics". Add in the fact that he also finished mastering all lightsaber forms shortly after chp. 3 finale, it shouldn't be surprising that he relies more on dueling than force powers. Yet, he is still powerful enough to not get overwhelmed by someone with superior showings of raw power to anyone in this fight. And if you want to be reminded of the people he defeated throughout the game, you can check Neph's RT.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not only does it not meant that, you'd also have to show Vitiate actually was bringing that full power against the HoT. But considering we already know the HoT can't face opponents in Anakin's tier on his own, not matching up in strength and being casually TK'd, the point is moot anyway.

I already explained why Vitiate wouldn't hold his power, also I don't have to show shit. HoT still defeated a Vitiate with better force feats than both Anakin and Dooku in a dark side nexus. You need to prove the feat is not usable but all I hear is lowballing based on speculations.




So what if it failed? "The Emperor is determined to destroy the galaxy. It's him, or us." - Scourge after Vitiate's first attempted ritual. It doesn't in anyway mean that Vitiate no longer cared about it.

This has nothing to with what I said since Vitiate himself was sincere about his attempts to devour the galaxy. And of course none of this actually disproves the fact that Vitiate prepped for a 1000 years for that and still kept on having that drain ritual as his main priority. After all, he did still think he could pull it off which is made clear by the dialogue and literally the whole dialogue is about how Vitiate will devour the galaxy during the last missions. And Vitiate believes he will definitely be able to defeat HoT "Your striving is insignificant. Let your death be the same" pretty much makes that clear. So we also know he didn't have to lie to HoT to hide his alternative plans, which cancels out the "Vitiate was lying" stupidity.

Maybe he wanted the new empire as a backup and still wanted to kill the galaxy until he surpassed his fear of death with Ziost? Your speculations are no more valid than this tbh.


He managed to defend against his force attacks and then struck him down when near enough. Its a solid feat.

I said shittier because the way he left his body wasn't a non harmful one for Vitiate. He clearly suffered for being struck down there that way. One would have to be blind to not see Vitiate was actually trying to win there and it was very important for him to achieve his plans at that point.

I think the shitty explanation was something like: "Zakuul exists outside of the galaxy"

Zakuul exists in Wild Space, which is inside the galaxy.
Originally posted by Sinious
I already explained why Vitiate wouldn't hold his power, also I don't have to show shit. HoT still defeated a Vitiate with better force feats than both Anakin and Dooku in a dark side nexus. You need to prove the feat is not usable but all I hear is lowballing based on speculations.

No. No it isn't. Cutting someone who's powerful isn't a Force feat. So, yeah, you kind of do have to show shit. Like how the HoT won't be blitzed as soon as he goes into sabers.

Well besides Vitiate saying he no longer cared about it, no one, including Scourge, actually knew what the Emperor was planning. We still don't.

With evidence of Scourge said so, it's pretty air-tight, I guess.

Including himself and his children, and his entire Empire, yeah? I mean

The what? I mean Valkorion says, "I have never been your enemy." Therefore he never really tried to kill the Hero of the Tython. I mean he said it!

He was already immortal to begin with, and apparently has had Valkorion around for centuries, so that doesn't make any sense at all.

And none of that Lightning would have collapsed the Dark Temple. Esepcially when the Hero of Tython can't deal with much weaker TK.

Or you know, we have hindsight to actually know what happened. Vitiate wasn't harmed in anyway, some of his power went to Yavin, and his mind back to Zakuul. It wasn't like he could physically feel anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Being the strongest Jedi in TOR for most of the game for one, and continually getting more and more powerful. The HoT has more or less the best credentials out of all the protags, when all of the Force using ones measure up to Anakin and Dooku.The HoT has the best credentials out of the Jedi protags but even then is only stated to be the Jedi's "finest" or "greatest warrior" - this doesn't not necessarily imply the HoT is the most powerful in the Force, merely the best overall as a combatant, which as martial focused makes sense.

So that method of powerscaling doesn't work, frankly as a Force user I'd put both Nox and the Barsenthor above the HoT (and Wrath), and as the Force-orientated classes I think that is what is intended.

Nor does being a better duelist than any one TOR Jedi put him above Anakin or Dooku in skill.Because Anakin and Dooku could not do the same? Frankly I'd question whether Arcann could defeat either full stop.Originally posted by Sinious
I never said he is above them. I just disagreed with people saying he is outclassed or doesn't even belong in this fight. HoT was considered the order's finest way before his prime. Now we know HoT and Wrath are both melee focused combatants where Nox and Thor are more force oriented. So despite the fact that his best insceen showings are defensive force powers, one can logically understand that HoT is more of a duelist, as supported by swtor.com and the game itself of course "combining the foresight of the Force with unrivaled reflexes and practiced physical precision, the Knight turns combat into an art form, gracefully executing acrobatic feats in tandem with elegant lightsaber tactics". Add in the fact that he also finished mastering all lightsaber forms shortly after chp. 3 finale, it shouldn't be surprising that he relies more on dueling than force powers. Yet, he is still powerful enough to not get overwhelmed by someone with superior showings of raw power to anyone in this fight. And if you want to be reminded of the people he defeated throughout the game, you can check Neph's RT. I completely agree with you there, neither Anakin or Dooku have sufficient strength in the Force to overwhelm the HoT, but neither does he. And
though I wouldn't say he is outclassed, he has zero advantages against them, not in skill, physicals or offensive Force powers.

He wins 0/10 even if he puts up a great fight.

I'd usually say Anakin but adding in another fighter might make the match favor Dooku as he's capable of combating every style better then Anakin would be.

Dooku would also be the best at conserving energy here, and is a very capable at fighting multiple adversaries.

Not sure.

Pretty sure the HoT is said to be the most powerful Beni, though I agree that doesn't mean they can apply it as well as the Barsen'thor or Nox.

Well besides the fact that they are given the usual, "Strongest in generations" speech, Satele also called you the "greatest weapon against the Darkness" who would determine the fate of the entire Order, and blah, and blah, Knights of the Fallen Empire also calls them the "Champion of the Force," and Scourge stating them being the only one powerful enough to resist Vitiate lends me to believe the HoT is supposed to be the more powerful of the two. Lightsaber skills will only take you so far. There's also the Barsen'thor struggling with the First Son more than the HoT ever would, but that's more of an opinion than anything.

Personally, without taking Vitikorion into account, the powerhouse besides HoT in the SWToR universe is Nox.

Not really. All the Force using classes in the SWTOR are around the same level in power. The Wrath is stated to have legendary skill and power, for instance. The Barsen'thor is a prodigy.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Well besides the fact that they are given the usual, "Strongest in generations" speech, Satele also called you the "greatest weapon against the Darkness" who would determine the fate of the entire Order, and blah, and blah, Knights of the Fallen Empire also calls them the "Champion of the Force," and Scourge stating them being the only one powerful enough to resist Vitiate lends me to believe the HoT is supposed to be the more powerful of the two. Lightsaber skills will only take you so far. There's also the Barsen'thor struggling with the First Son more than the HoT ever would, but that's more of an opinion than anything. Fair enough, and no its not just about pure skill, but the physical and spiritual mastery necessary to apply those skills as well - in that respect the HoT might be superior, however I would still argue that as far as offensive displays of the Force or Alter goes the Barsen'thor is better.

If I were to make a comparison I'd say the Hero of Tython can be likened to Jaina Solo, while the Barsen'thor is like Kyp Durron. Kyp may have more raw power and offensive Force ability, but Jaina was made the Sword of the Jedi and chosen to kill Darth Caedus, she's a superior weapon.

It doesn't really matter at this point. There's only the Outlander now, so we'll never know, as they get defaulted to being the best in their Orders.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not really. All the Force using classes in the SWTOR are around the same level in power. The Wrath is stated to have legendary skill and power, for instance. The Barsen'thor is a prodigy.

Except that Nox, besides being a powerful individual, has the power of Sith spirits which are bound to him. That display of dominance over Thanaton is enough to put him above Wrath, at least.

The Wrath would kill Thanaton just as easily, considering s/he defeats the much more powerful Baras. Nox needed augmentation to make up for his/her general lack of training as a youth, and thus knowledge of more arcane Sith practices.

When is it stated/demonstrated/proven Baras is 'much more powerful' than Thanaton?

I seriously doubt any other Council member would kill Thanaton with the relative ease Nox did it. There's a reason he was there, after all.

Thanaton has much better showings than Baras tbh, he seemed more the political type.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
When is it stated/demonstrated/proven Baras is 'much more powerful' than Thanaton?

When Baras is stated to be the most powerful Sith in the galaxy while Thanaton is sitting right there? Or when he bowed to him as the Voice of the Emperor, for whatever reason? One of those.

Nox was there because Thanaton challenged him/her to a duel where the winner took all, and Thanaton ran away. Otherwise, they would have been killed on the spot for interrupting the Dark Council. Similarly, the Wrath could only be there on the Emperor's authority. Both of which, at the time, were likely weaker than Marr going by the codex. It's not like someone had to kill Thanaton, and only Nox could do it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
When Baras is stated to be the most powerful Sith in the galaxy while Thanaton is sitting right there? Or when he bowed to him as the Voice of the Emperor, for whatever reason? One of those.

What? Baras was never stated to be the most powerful Sith in the galaxy. Not by a credible source, anyway. And since when does bowing to someone = being inferior? If they never believed he was the Voice, not one in the Council would've vowed or considered him a threat.
I need more than this. Thanaton has actual displays of power. We get none from Baras.



I never said only Nox could kill him, I said I doubt anyone present at the killing would have defeated Thanaton with such ease. Seriously, Nox didn't even break a sweat. He owned him. And Thanaton has good displays of power.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Anakin destroys, lel.

Originally posted by Sinious
So no matter what feats HoT has, you still lowball him cause you think Revan and Vader must be on the same level? Sounds legit.

Or you wank him...

Winud has better accolades and better circumstantial feat than the HoT. So no, he is not gona get even a single round against the likes of Anakin or Dooku.

Anakin ragdolls HOT and uses his corpse to kill Dooku.

No. :tehee:

Quote function stopped working, but you know it's you, Sinious.

How do you know this? I mean clearly when Vitiate wants to kill something it ends up dead. Every single time. A weakened Vitiate is killing hundreds of people at once, but he can't deal with this one Jedi Knight he's clearly more powerful than? M'kay.
He uses a lightsaber in this one, so point?
You keep wanking this one feat to show how amazeballs Vitiate must have been during the duel, even though nothing like that is ever presented in cutscene.
And he was using that bamf TK, am I right? I mean the Outlander, who is above Act III HoT can't even take casual TK on a good day, and never has for that matter getting TK'd by Braga a week tops prior, but he can withstand a Temple smashing force?

I'm actually waiting for you to make an argument that isn't "Vitiate is amazing. And the HoT is amazing. So since they're both amazing, y'all don't understand."

Uh, no. He wants evolution to bring life back and he'll just repeat this process several times, is the way he put it, which is not only the single most retarded thing said outside of Final Fantasy, it's not exactly the airtight evidence you keep trying to imply it is, esepcially given what we know now.

The entire story? You mean like the last 50 minutes of it, the last 5 specifically, where Scourge tells you the Emperor is going to do something, and you just go, "Okay." I mean not only does this not overwrite even a majority of the story, it definitely would be okay given how retarded the story was anyway, but that's getting off track.

To name a few:

Arcann
Tol Braga
Kira while ironically possesed by the Emperor
Revan
Senya

And no, none of those showings would remotely do anything to the Dark Temple.

Given you can't actually prove a single thing Vitiate has ever wanted to do, period, I can deny plenty, actually. You also aren't showing why him having a weakened body, which is already dead, is somehow a hinderence to him, when it obviously isn't. Scourge saw the Hero of Tython strike the Emperor down and take his power which has nothing to do with the JK's story at this point, and everything to do with the Outlander now, and given that takes off a good two years or so after Chapter III, it's hardly a point in his favor as of now. Apparently those futures weren't that important since he let's him live everytime he encounters him, but hey, maybe Vitiate's just that shitty a combatant or possibly mentally retarded. That's actually much more likely.

The twist of KotFE kind of does. That's how stories work. They progress, they don't stay static. Lore changes.

Huh, I guess Scourges vision does heavily indicate that the HoT is the canon Outlander.

I also get the impression that HoT is the Outlander. BioWare's promotional material depicts a Jedi Knight.

Anakin stomps here.

I was actually arguing that Vitiate never wanted to kill the HoT, but since LeGenD so kindly replied to my conversation with Sinious, I'm highly convinced he's just shit now.

Vitiate states that he "see's futures in you that I cannot allow" at the end of Act I. In Act II Scourge states that the Hero is Vitiate's "most hated enemy". During Doomsday, Vitiate flat out states that he wants to kill you.

The quest text for the mission states: "Realizing you are too powerful to be dominated by his twisted will, the Emperor has resorted to more conventional means to destroy you."

And: "The Emperor lies beaten at your feet. For all his power, he was no match for you. Now you must decide his ultimate fate."

Furthermore, at the end of Ziost he states that he's changed his mind about killing you, indicating that he was trying to do so before.

So basically, like, no.

I mean you can just repeat what Sinious already said. And you can just read what I said. It's not like I'm going to write that reply up again.

You said "you can't actually prove a single thing Vitiate has ever wanted to do, period," except the quest text stating that Vitiate was trying to "destroy you" does exactly that.

If HoT is indeed the Outlander, I think his power and skills need to be reassessed positively.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You said "you can't actually prove a single thing Vitiate has ever wanted to do, period," except the quest text stating that Vitiate was trying to "destroy you" does exactly that.
Those are all written from your perspective where as the man himself says he never was your enemy. It matters very little to me over all. That one showing isn't why the HoT would lose here.

@ Freshest,

Sorry for not replying earlier. After the pms (where Freshest kindly shared the patch files), I understand why he suspects Vitiate was in control the whole time. However, I still believe that we need the story of KOTFE to progress more before being certain about the possibility of these major changes considering how Scourge's vision, and the entire dialogue of the game still heavily suggests the opposite of what Freshest is saying. So for now, I'll wait till we know more before making anymore comments.

I'm completely okay with the entirety of the JK's story being thrown out the window myself. It's awful.

I agree that it should've been better even though its a simple MMO class story. Still, what you're suggesting wanks the s*** out of Valkorion and utterly shits on the HoT, which isn't really stupid given how we were actually disappointed by Vitiate's showings considering his ridiculously OP backstory. If it is indeed true that they are overwriting shit to make him commensurate with his backstory, I don't even know what to expect. I do need to see more than the clues we get from patch files, however.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Those are all written from your perspective where as the man himself says he never was your enemy. It matters very little to me over all. That one showing isn't why the HoT would lose here. Yeah duh Neph those diary entires aren't canon.

No, but it does mean that they aren't an end all be all and can be taken with a grain of salt. But considering you think even them telling to do button presses happens in universe, I shouldn't find your leap in logic here that surprising.
Originally posted by Sinious
I agree that it should've been better even though its a simple MMO class story. Still, what you're suggesting wanks the s*** out of Valkorion and utterly shits on the HoT, which isn't really stupid given how we were actually disappointed by Vitiate's showings considering his ridiculously OP backstory. If it is indeed true that they are overwriting shit to make him commensurate with his backstory, I don't even know what to expect. I do need to see more than the clues we get from patch files, however.
I'm find either way really. I'm just here for the keks at this point. Valkorion having control over literally everything can be just as annoying as stupid villain if done wrong. It makes the entire story seem pointless then; he'll just win anyway.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, but it does mean that they aren't an end all be all and can be taken with a grain of salt. But considering you think even them telling to do button presses happens in universe, I shouldn't find your leap in logic here that surprising.
No, I consider the obvious in-universe entries to be in-universe. On the other hand you continue to assume them diary entries on no basis.