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Round 1: SABERS

Round 2: ALL OUT

TOR Scourge wins after a good fight, Revan Scourge loses.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
TOR Scourge wins after a good fight, Revan Scourge loses.

I'd think Scourge wins both fights tbh

You find Revan!Scourge capable of beating AOTC Kenobi?

He seems comparable enough with Meetra to do so.

^ he's not, though, IIRC. He doesn't contribute nearly as much to the fight with Nyriss as Meetra does, even though it's a dark side nexus, Meetra hasn't eaten or slept in days and just had a panic attack from Nathema.

Along with being drained from being on a DS nexus.

****ing all of Meetra's best feats are on a greater DS nexus LOL

I don't see how that offsets the comparison.

The eating and Nathema crap potentially does if anyone can provide evidence for it.

And it stands to reason she'd be even better off nexus. :>

Originally posted by Syndicate
And it stands to reason she'd be even better off nexus. :>
Well when looking at her best feat, ie. taking down multiple Sith at a time, she was on a DS nexus more potent than Dromund Kaas, so she would've experienced similar weakening and her opponents similar ampage as Scourge, so I don't really see how Dromund Kaas offsets things so drastically Scourge can go from fighting similarly to someone who takes down scores of Sith at once to dropping to AOTC Kenobi level.

If that's the case you either have a very great respect for AOTC Kenobi, or you wank nexuses as if they were actual characters you're a fan of (which has happened quite a bit on these forums.)

Meetra wasn't even connected to the Force then, and grew stronger with every death, so that's probably not a good argument to make, DMB.

Tbh. ^

There's a quote from the Revan novel confirming she was still negatively harmed by Malachor's effects is there not?

No. It actually says Malachor is better than Nathema. Either way, Meetra drew her power through Kreia, so Malachor wouldn't be harming her. The mass-shadows affected her more than anything.

Don't believe so. It's been a while since I've read it though.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well when looking at her best feat, ie. taking down multiple Sith at a time, she was on a DS nexus more potent than Dromund Kaas, so she would've experienced similar weakening and her opponents similar ampage as Scourge, so I don't really see how Dromund Kaas offsets things so drastically Scourge can go from fighting similarly to someone who takes down scores of Sith at once to dropping to AOTC Kenobi level.

If that's the case you either have a very great respect for AOTC Kenobi, or you wank nexuses as if they were actual characters you're a fan of (which has happened quite a bit on these forums.) If taking down "multiple Sith" is meant to be beyond AotC Kenobi, how do you reconcile Jango Fett wiping the floor with multiple Jedi with his bare hands, the same guy who Kenobi matched without his lightsaber?

Kenobi also had to contend with the Slave I's presence which effectively restricted his movement, and he was fighting Jango with his full arsenal, not just Jango's bare hands.

Meetra on Nathema had her mind nearly torn apart and then spent several days after that without rest or sustenance until arriving on Dromund Kaas where she was incapable of meditating and finding enlightenment, which is what she'd been doing to offset fatigue in the previous days.

The Citadel of Dromund Kaas was stated to be powerful enough to amplify Scourge from the edges of the city and furthermore Nyriss' 'ferocity' was available for Scourge to feed off and empower himself, he still spends most of that battle on his rear-end. Meetra carried him completely.

When they fight the Imperial Guards, in the aforementioned Citadel which is itself a dark side nexus, Meetra solos four with no noted injuries sustained whereas Lord Scourge needed an amp to kill the captain, who tagged him twice, and one guard in the same amount of time.

No comparison at all favours Lord Scourge between the two.

Scourge estimated that Meetra would be his equal on Dromund Kaas. That amounts to Surik being his unquestionable superior - and she'd beat him every time on neutral ground.

And on-topic, Kenobi wins. Scourge'd be hard-pressed to defeat TPM Kenobi. Ten years later, Obi-Wan defeats him each and every time.

Scourge was wrong.

Yeah, that just makes it worse for him.

She's probably a tier above him in a neutral setting.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And on-topic, Kenobi wins. Scourge'd be hard-pressed to defeat TPM Kenobi. Ten years later, Obi-Wan defeats him each and every time.
This is absurd.

Episode I Obi-Wan Kenobi is not in the league of Lord Scourge, not even close.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is absurd.

TPM! Kenobi is not in the league of Lord Scourge, not even close.

Revan Scourge? He sure is. He was a near-equal to Qui-Gon by this point, who is canonically one of the most skilled Jedi in history, who has outsparred Anoon Bondara (someone who is reputably the most skilled Jedi of the time) and who has contended with Maul, who is easily Scourge's superior. Scourge being better than Academy instructors, Xedrix's apprentices and some Imperial Guards, all of whom are practical fodder, doesn't put him out of Obi-Wan's league.

Shit. I've never seen you go full savage nigga Sun. It a little scary.

Originally posted by ILS
If taking down "multiple Sith" is meant to be beyond AotC Kenobi, how do you reconcile Jango Fett wiping the floor with multiple Jedi with his bare hands, the same guy who Kenobi matched without his lightsaber?

I think he means multiple Sith as in Kreia and Sion. The Sith in the Trayas Academy were also the best of them and don't forget that they possess the ability to grow in strength compared to their opponents. So it's basically impossible for them to have been fodder like the guys Jango took out.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Revan Scourge? He sure is. He was a near-equal to Qui-Gon by this point, who is canonically one of the most skilled Jedi in history, who has outsparred Anoon Bondara (someone who is reputably the most skilled Jedi of the time) and who has contended with Maul, who is easily Scourge's superior. Scourge being better than Academy instructors, Xedrix's apprentices and some Imperial Guards, all of whom are practical fodder, doesn't put him out of Obi-Wan's league.

Lol @ Imperial Guards being fodder. They're stated to be so terrifying that "the most powerful of Sith Lords lay down their weapons and surrender to the certain death" at their hands. And Scourge defeated their leader and a guard at the same time, without using any Force powers.

lmao at "the most powerful sith lords". That could mean Sirak.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think he means multiple Sith as in Kreia and Sion. The Sith in the Trayas Academy were also the best of them and don't forget that they possess the ability to grow in strength compared to their opponents. So it's basically impossible for them to have been fodder like the guys Jango took out.



Lol @ Imperial Guards being fodder. They're stated to be so terrifying that "the most powerful of Sith Lords lay down their weapons and surrender to the certain death" at their hands. And Scourge defeated their leader and a guard at the same time, without using any Force powers.

To be fair tho, Meetra is unquestionably Revan Scourge's superior, at least.

As for the fight, Revan Scourge dies, SWTOR Scourge stalemates or maybe wins.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Kenobi also had to contend with the Slave I's presence which effectively restricted his movement, and he was fighting Jango with his full arsenal, not just Jango's bare hands.

That and Obi-Wan was trying to capture, not kill, much harder to do that to a guy who has no qualms about killing you.

Also I'd hardly call those Jedi who Jango killed 'fodder' as they cut through Jango's Mandalorians and just being Padawans are still highly trained swordmasters. What did the Sith do at the Academy? Study books?

The term fodder is thrown around too loosely, which in most cases isn't applicable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They're stated to be so terrifying that "the most powerful of Sith Lords lay down their weapons and surrender to the certain death" at their hands. And Scourge defeated their leader and a guard at the same time, without using any Force powers.

I think that basically proves that quote is bullshit level over 9000.

Originally posted by Trocity
I think that basically proves that quote is bullshit level over 9000.

With only months of training too.


Either that or the Sith in the SE aren't all they are cracked up to be.

..or, the most logical answer, Karpy is an incompetent idiot.

So if I don't like something in SW, I can just ignore it and have it be ok?

"Months" could be two or seventy two. Nice lowball attempt though.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Also I'd hardly call those Jedi who Jango killed 'fodder' as they cut through Jango's Mandalorians and just being Padawans are still highly trained swordmasters. What did the Sith do at the Academy? Study books.

"Padawans are legit expert swordsman, bro. Sith Lords experienced in murdering Jedi? Pffft, scrubs."

Like, seriously man? Seriously?

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Months" could be two or seventy two. Nice lowball attempt though.



"Padawans are legit expert swordsman, bro. Sith Lords experienced in murdering Jedi? Pffft, scrubs."

Like, seriously man? Seriously?

Hey you were the one, bringing up the fact the Jedi Jango killed were just fodder, so I just merely returned favor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Months" could be two or seventy two. Nice lowball attempt though.

lol? The quote is stressing how brutal their training is, if it was 12+ months, they'd convert it to years.

Like what the hell?

Because the quote makes so much sense in the first place?

Regardless, the IG's are stated to be the ultimate non-force sensitive force in the Empire, above even the Mando's and "unmatched in martial skill." Their cred is solid.

Even Darth Nyriss doesn't believe she could defeat the Guards sent to her compound, stating she knew she was already dead.

The Imperial Guards defending the Sith Emperor were directly amplified by him and were stated to be the most elite of the lot.

Scourge couldn't even take Captain Yarri 1 vs 1, he spends almost the entire fight struggling to best her and she tags him twice rendering his right arm inoperable. Then Scourge amplifies himself off of the death of the single Guard that comes to aid Yarri and then Scourge wins.

Meanwhile Meetra was fighting five at once until one left to intervene in Scourge's fight, so she killed the remaining four single-handedly in the same amount of time it took Lord Scourge to kill his own. Furthermore Meetra hadn't been tagged once, because if she had one of her limbs would be numbed by the blow and that evidently wasn't the case once she charged to face the Emperor and save Revan.

See I don't have a problem with multiple Guards doing so, because there were a great many of them that were laying seige to Nyriss' stronghold, the defenders unprepared and not organized.

Problem I have however, is 1 Guard being able to kill a full Sith Lord, because this would be ignoring that Force Advantage the Sith Lord has over them, they aren't Jedi....they won't play nice and just stick with strict bladework. It doesn't really help that said Guards just ran head long into blaster fire and just died, now how stupid is that?



This would be something I'd expect from like Sith Troopers, not Guardsmen.


Heck even against Scourge, Yarri knew she couldn't win and had to have a 2nd Guard come aid her and he was only struck because he was distracted with visions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol @ Imperial Guards being fodder. They're stated to be so terrifying that "the most powerful of Sith Lords lay down their weapons and surrender to the certain death" at their hands.

Obviously exaggerated. Moreover, the novel itself contradicts this by saying that even the Captain was no match for a trained Sith Lord.

And by fodder, I mean no-name soldiers - which they are. Elite fodder, but fodder nonetheless.

In groups they are effective, the Protag struggles with three in SoR and one was half-mad.

Yarri by herself couldn't kill Scourge, but they aren't meant to fight by themselves. They're an elite anti-Force user group.

And Scourge didn't fight them in groups, really. He took on Yarri and one other, so the quote doesn't exactly apply anyway.

He faces Captain Yarri and one other who interrupts, Meetra faces five including the aforementioned one and kills the remaining four.

There were seven in total, the Emperor's personal attachment, and they are stated to be capable of amplifying themselves through the Emperor.

Darth Xedrix was no match for Lord Scourge either, might I add.

What Meetra faced doesn't make Scourge more impressive. Considering the environment was friendly to Scourge and hostile to Meetra.

IIRC Xedrix was so weak that he was disarmed as soon as they clashed blades. TPM Kenobi would chop him in half as well.

Well yeh, TPM Kenobi slaughters him in a duel, just saying Scourge would get the same treatment from Meetra, nevermind on neutral ground.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Scourge couldn't even take Captain Yarri 1 vs 1, he spends almost the entire fight struggling to best her and she tags him twice rendering his right arm inoperable. Then Scourge amplifies himself off of the death of the single Guard that comes to aid Yarri and then Scourge wins.

Meanwhile Meetra was fighting five at once until one left to intervene in Scourge's fight, so she killed the remaining four single-handedly in the same amount of time it took Lord Scourge to kill his own. Furthermore Meetra hadn't been tagged once, because if she had one of her limbs would be numbed by the blow and that evidently wasn't the case once she charged to face the Emperor and save Revan.
Here:

Captain Yarri's skill with her electrostaff was impressive, but ultimately she was no match for a Sith Lord. Knowing this, she had wisely adopted a defensive style to hold off the first few flurries of Scourge's attack, her focus on stalling him long enough for one of her companions to join the fray before switching to a more aggressive form.

Now Scourge was forced to defend himself on two fronts as he backed into the throne room. In his peripheral vision he saw that Meetra was in a
similar situation, retreating while battling a pair of enemies.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik contended with 2 Imperial Guards at a time. Lord Scourge, in particular, was up against more formidable opposition because the leader of Imperial Guards (i.e. Captain Yarri) was contending with him.

Your entire argument is flawed and disingenuous.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Revan Scourge? He sure is. He was a near-equal to Qui-Gon by this point, who is canonically one of the most skilled Jedi in history, who has outsparred Anoon Bondara (someone who is reputably the most skilled Jedi of the time) and who has contended with Maul, who is easily Scourge's superior. Scourge being better than Academy instructors, Xedrix's apprentices and some Imperial Guards, all of whom are practical fodder, doesn't put him out of Obi-Wan's league.
On what grounds you are asserting that Obi-Wan Kenobi was near-equal to Qui-Gon Jinn during Episode I?

Imperial Guards are not fodder FYI.

Can you actually count?



Lord Scourge faces only Captain Yarri until they were exiting the hallway:



Revan had already killed his own, leaving the other three to face Meetra Surik who is next to the door with two of her own already engaging her. One of them then goes to aid Yarri against Scourge.

Meetra killed four by herself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
On what grounds you are asserting that Obi-Wan Kenobi was near-equal to Qui-Gon Jinn during Episode I?

Imperial Guards are not fodder FYI.

1. The fact that it's stated in the TPM novel? The novel also states that Obi-Wan's faster than Qui-Gon, who is at least as fast as Scourge as per showings.

2. They are. They're high-tier, accoladed, elite fodder, but fodder nonetheless.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
See I don't have a problem with multiple Guards doing so, because there were a great many of them that were laying seige to Nyriss' stronghold, the defenders unprepared and not organized.

Problem I have however, is 1 Guard being able to kill a full Sith Lord, because this would be ignoring that Force Advantage the Sith Lord has over them, they aren't Jedi....they won't play nice and just stick with strict bladework. It doesn't really help that said Guards just ran head long into blaster fire and just died, now how stupid is that?



This would be something I'd expect from like Sith Troopers, not Guardsmen.


Heck even against Scourge, Yarri knew she couldn't win and had to have a 2nd Guard come aid her and he was only struck because he was distracted with visions.

Theres a Guardsman in TOR was was stated in his codex entry to have killed over a dozen Sith.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Can you actually count?
Yes.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lord Scourge faces only Captain Yarri until they were exiting the hallway:

Revan had already killed his own, leaving the other three to face Meetra Surik who is next to the door with two of her own already engaging her. One of them then goes to aid Yarri against Scourge.

Meetra killed four by herself.
You got this wrong.

Revan and T3-M4 kill one initially.

Meetra Surik attacks two Imperial Guards but one of them breaks off to confront Revan - Revan kills him as well.

Two down. Four left.

Now, Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik face two each. Among them, Captain Yarri confronts Lord Scourge. The former to manage to kill both.

In the nutshell, Lord Scourge demonstrates superior skill then Meetra Surik.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The fact that it's stated in the TPM novel? The novel also states that Obi-Wan's faster than Qui-Gon, who is at least as fast as Scourge as per showings.
Then Qui-Gon isn't that impressive.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. They are. They're high-tier, accoladed, elite fodder, but fodder nonetheless.
Just like Anoon Bondara.

Revan kicks one whilst T3 shoots him, but doesn't kill him, the Guard just falls over. It even says that three others besides the two Surik initially engages at the door, are present:



Then Revan blasts the doors open and slays the one intercepting him, he percieves another six Imperial Guards on the far side of the hallway and drops an arch on them.

Lord Scourge continues to face Captain Yarri until they move towards the throne room, so unless you're claiming that the other three Guards simply ceased to exist, they attacked Meetra before one split off to face Lord Scourge. Once they enter the throne room Meetra had evidently killed two others and then Scourge observes her slaying the last two as he finishes Yarri.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Then Qui-Gon isn't that impressive.

So because you have a preconceived notion of where Obi-Wan lies, then get proven wrong on it, you now put Qui-Gon lower just because Obi-Wan's near him? How about cutting your losses and putting them both higher? Because Qui-Gon's better than novel Scourge in every facet - feats, accolades, the whole nine yards. Obi-Wan being his near-equal means that it's not as outrageous as you're suggesting for him to be in Scourge's league, if not his equal.

It's things like this that make you get called out for being biased. As Temp would say, you're relying entirely on me being charitable towards your arguments but you're not willing to extend that same charity to me - or in this case, you're not willing to extend the same logic to TOR characters.



Nah. If the Guards can't beat an average joe Sith Lord on their own, then any noted Jedi/Sith warrior's above them, let alone somebody with unquestionably superior accolades and showings like Anoon Bondara. Bondara performed against Maul about as well as the top Guard did against Scourge, and Maul's way better than Scourge. So Bondara kicks in an average Imperial Guard's shit.

They need to be in big numbers to be as effective as their hype suggests. On their own, or in paltry groups, they're not that impressive.

I just told you about a Guard who'd killed over a dozen Sith Lords.

Sirak God tier confirmed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because the quote makes so much sense in the first place?

Regardless, the IG's are stated to be the ultimate non-force sensitive force in the Empire, above even the Mando's and "unmatched in martial skill." Their cred is solid. Look at this quote! Its sense making and proves my point!

This quote makes no sense, obviously utter dumb!

Lmao Neph.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I just told you about a Guard who'd killed over a dozen Sith Lords.

Yeah, it's a one-off mentioned in some obscure entry that BioWare won't even remember about because they threw it in recklessly to make the IG's look good. I'm inclined to take what we have on paper, which is Yarri being no match for a trained Sith Lord as per the novel.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Revan kicks one whilst T3 shoots him, but doesn't kill him, the Guard just falls over.
T3-M4's shooting killed him. The author didn't bother to highlight it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It even says that three others besides the two Surik initially engages at the door, are present:

Then Revan blasts the doors open and slays the one intercepting him, he percieves another six Imperial Guards on the far side of the hallway and drops an arch on them.
Meetra Surik attacked two Imperial Guards:

T3-M4, his electrical circuits instantly processing the situation, reacted by firing off his built-in blaster; the beam struck the soldier square in the chest. At the same time, Meetra threw herself at the two guards standing in front of the doors to the throne room, her lightsaber materializing in her hand.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Then;

One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Revan killed this guard.

Two down! Four remaining.

Then;

It wasn't enough to block the passage, but it did buy Scourge and Meetra a few precious seconds to complete their retreat into the chamber. They crossed the threshold, still engaged with Captain Yarri and the three surviving Imperial Guard that had escorted them to the throne room.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

And this was the situation afterwards:

Captain Yarri's skill with her electrostaff was impressive, but ultimately she was no match for a Sith Lord. Knowing this, she had wisely adopted a defensive style to hold off the first few flurries of Scourge's attack, her focus on stalling him long enough for one of her companions to join the fray before switching to a more aggressive form.

Now Scourge was forced to defend himself on two fronts as he backed into the throne room. In his peripheral vision he saw that Meetra was in a similar situation, retreating while battling a pair of enemies.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lord Scourge continues to face Captain Yarri until they move towards the throne room, so unless you're claiming that the other three Guards simply ceased to exist, they attacked Meetra before one split off to face Lord Scourge. Once they enter the throne room Meetra had evidently killed two others and then Scourge observes her slaying the last two as he finishes Yarri.
See above.

The puzzle is that there were seven in total. However, Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik fought two Imperial Guards each while retreating into the throne room. Reminder:

It wasn't enough to block the passage, but it did buy Scourge and Meetra a few precious seconds to complete their retreat into the chamber. They crossed the threshold, still engaged with Captain Yarri and the three surviving Imperial Guard that had escorted them to the throne room.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

One is missing in the count.

Among the two Imperial Guards that Meetra Surik initially confronted, one broke-off to face Revan and was killed by him. Therefore, it can be inferred that Meetra Surik killed the lone Imperial Guard. And she faced two more afterwards.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So because you have a preconceived notion of where Obi-Wan lies, then get proven wrong on it, you now put Qui-Gon lower just because Obi-Wan's near him? How about cutting your losses and putting them both higher? Because Qui-Gon's better than novel Scourge in every facet - feats, accolades, the whole nine yards. Obi-Wan being his near-equal means that it's not as outrageous as you're suggesting for him to be in Scourge's league, if not his equal.
Qui-Gon is better than Lord Scourge in every facet? Any individual of note he had killed earlier aside from sparring with Anoon Bondara?

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's things like this that make you get called out for being biased. As Temp would say, you're relying entirely on me being charitable towards your arguments but you're not willing to extend that same charity to me - or in this case, you're not willing to extend the same logic to TOR characters.
I restore balance in the debates here with my alternate point-of-view. If me and a few others had not become heralds of TOR campaign, people would be assuming that every character in TOR era with the exception of Valkorion and Revan is a mook. A few continue to underestimate Valkorion and Revan as well.

Look at some of the recent threads:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t625981.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t625728.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t625974.html

Some of the most ridiculous assumptions have been made in them in a while and you are among the guilty. But I am biased...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah. If the Guards can't beat an average joe Sith Lord on their own, then any noted Jedi/Sith warrior's above them, let alone somebody with unquestionably superior accolades and showings like Anoon Bondara. Bondara performed against Maul about as well as the top Guard did against Scourge, and Maul's way better than Scourge. So Bondara kicks in an average Imperial Guard's shit.

They need to be in big numbers to be as effective as their hype suggests. On their own, or in paltry groups, they're not that impressive.
Here:

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Ordinary soldiers do not even register to Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik.

Lord Scourge, in particular, killed two bounty hunters in a confrontation and also killed Darth Xedrix (along with his apprentices) in another confrontation earlier.

But Lord Scourge lost to Darth Nyriss, he must be terrible.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Look at this quote! Its sense making and proves my point!

This quote makes no sense, obviously utter dumb!

Lmao Neph.

One could always play Neph's card for quotes he doesn't like:

"I refuse to acknowledge this quote."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Qui-Gon is better than Lord Scourge in every facet? Any individual of note he had killed earlier aside from sparring with Anoon Bondara?

Firstly, given how easily you subscribe to hype, the fact that Anoon Bondara was reputably the most skilled Jedi in the Order should put him pretty high on your list, and Qui-Gon beating him is above any feat Scourge has to bear. The same goes for contending with Maul - Scourge has nothing on that.



Blatant fanboyism to the point of repeated double standards is not restoring balance, that's hilarious.



Uh, you're biased beyond the comparison of any user here, except Carthage/Elli when it comes to Bane. The whole forum knows that, lol. Don't try to roll your eyes or play innocent.

And who are you to call people out for making ridiculous assumptions? I mean, everybody's been laughed at for posting their opinion before, but you've literally made memes out of yourself.



Beautiful. What does that have to do with anything?



I didn't say they were ordinary soldiers. Ordinary soldiers would be low-tier fodder, not elite fodder.

And you think that's something to write home about? Qui-Gon's dodged a fodder's attack and disarmed him before anyone could even take a breath. Anyone worth mentioning can move imperceptibly fast/blitz fodder.



I've read the novel, lol. That's not as good as any of Qui-Gon's showings - by a long shot.



If there's a part of my post where I even remotely insinuated that, please, quote it, because right now, you're just humiliating yourself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Firstly, given how easily you subscribe to hype, the fact that Anoon Bondara was reputably the most skilled Jedi in the Order should put him pretty high on your list, and Qui-Gon beating him is above any feat Scourge has to bear. The same goes for contending with Maul - Scourge has nothing on that.
Anoon Bondara was the most skilled Jedi in the Order according to whom? Start substantiating your claims.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Blatant fanboyism to the point of repeated double standards is not restoring balance, that's hilarious.
So what constitutes as being fair and balanced in your opinion? When somebody agrees with your perspective only?

Everybody is biased here (including you).

Originally posted by SunRazer
Uh, you're biased beyond the comparison of any user here, except Carthage/Elli when it comes to Bane. The whole forum knows that, lol. Don't try to roll your eyes or play innocent.

And who are you to call people out for making ridiculous assumptions? I mean, everybody's been laughed at for posting their opinion before, but you've literally made memes out of yourself.
Calling them biased is an understatement.

Now, I will elaborate with an example that how fair a judge you really are.

A member recently asserted that Count Dooku would smoke Darth Angral, Darth Baras and Darth Lachris combined:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lel, Dooku schools these clowns.

Such statements are fair and balanced, right?

I don't see you calling him out on his extremely objective observation.

You are not a fair judge and you don't have the right to call me biased in the light of your own double-standards. Keep your petty judgments to yourself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Beautiful. What does that have to do with anything?
Imperial Guards are not fodder?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say they were ordinary soldiers. Ordinary soldiers would be low-tier fodder, not elite fodder.
There is not such thing as elite fodder.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And you think that's something to write home about? Qui-Gon's dodged a fodder's attack and disarmed him before anyone could even take a breath. Anyone worth mentioning can move imperceptibly fast/blitz fodder.
And this showing puts him in the TIER of Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik at maximum.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I've read the novel, lol. That's not as good as any of Qui-Gon's showings - by a long shot.
Guess what? You 'opinion' matters little.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If there's a part of my post where I even remotely insinuated that, please, quote it, because right now, you're just humiliating yourself.
So on what grounds you are assuming that Lord Scourge is inferior to even Episode 1 Obi-Wan Kenobi?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A member recently asserted that Count Dooku would smoke Darth Angral, Darth Baras and Darth Lachris combined:



Such statements are fair and balanced, right?

I don't see you calling him out on his extremely objective observation. Why would Nova call me out on a reasonable and justified assertion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anoon Bondara was the most skilled Jedi in the Order according to whom? Start substantiating your claims.

"Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable."

-- Jedi Academy Training Manual




Hardly. Sounds more like something to attribute to you, to be honest. I have debates with people all the time without calling them biased. It's usually a pretty extreme case when I call them out for that.



Of course. Some are more biased than others, though.



It's not like I called someone out in that thread after he posted it and then ignored it completely. I didn't post anything in the thread afterwards. But if that's what you want, Dooku destroying them all is ridiculous.



This isn't a double standard, and as you requested, I "condemned" Beni's post. Are you happy now?

And please, please, please never call somebody out for double standards. Except to say that you do it better than them.



Relative to some they are, but regardless, a random IG on his own isn't much compared to any of the greats.




There is to me, because I don't see all no-namers as equal.



What are you talking about? You gave me a quote about how Scourge and Surik could blitz fodder - I responded by saying Qui-Gon could do the same and cited an instance to support that.



If only you applied that to yourself. Time to start taking less of the drugs and more of your own advice.



Yet again you humiliate yourself by failing to keep up with the discussion. You said it was nonsense that Obi-Wan was even in the same league as Scourge - I argued otherwise and that's still where we're at. This is what I said:



Which, if you need clarification, just means that it's not ridiculous for Scourge and Obi-Wan to be in their same tier. The furthest I've gone is say that Obi-Wan might be his equal. I never said Scourge is inferior to Obi-Wan. And the "grounds" I've based my argument on are entirely clear - that he's a near-equal to Qui-Gon Jinn, who is Scourge's better as per his superior feats and accolades. You didn't even address that - you just said "your opinion matters little", which sounds like a half-baked concession to me considering that we're in a debate and that this is a contest of opinions.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why would Nova call me out on a reasonable and justified assertion.

To cut off his increasingly few escape routes

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Look at this quote! Its sense making and proves my point!

This quote makes no sense, obviously utter dumb!

Lmao Neph.

Everyone knows that SF writers, or writers in general, have no sense of scale or time. No one takes Travis' quote about 3 million clones seriously. Everyone also knows that Karpyshan is an incompetent.

The statement that they have months of training doesn't directly contradict them possessing unmatched martial skill in the Empire or that they are it's premier fighting force. It's reinforced repeatedly in TOR in the codex, the encyclopedia and their appearances in the game.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, it's a one-off mentioned in some obscure entry that BioWare won't even remember about because they threw it in recklessly to make the IG's look good. I'm inclined to take what we have on paper, which is Yarri being no match for a trained Sith Lord as per the novel.

TOR is the primary source. Karpyshans novel is just a supporting source for the game, after all. TOR also came out afterwards and so can revise things that Drew was mistaken about in favor of their more solid vision. Their statements are also a lot more reliable than Drew "I wrote a entire chapter with Carth in it but oops, I forgot to put it in the book" and "People are concluding that Bane won the duel of wills at the end? Whaa??? How could people possibly come to that view just because Zannah starts acting like him afterwards" Karpyshan. Also are you just trying to flat out deny that the guy was that good? Because lol, he canonically killed over two dozen Sith Lords (and 6 Jedi).

That's just Scourges opinion, bro. Not a solid statement.

Originally posted by Nephthys

TOR is the primary source.

They're both C-Canon in the old hierarchy, but any difference in TOR would be considered a retcon of Karpyshyn's account of things anyway. Which does happen a fair bit, since, you know, BioWare doesn't have any coherence with itself and keeps contradicting its own writers.



Sure, but I'd take something on-panel over some dubious accolade.



True, Drew contradicts himself as well. Which is why he sucks.



No, I'm saying something on-panel takes precedence, as always. And just because one guy did this doesn't mean every Imperial Guard can do it.



Well, it was clearly substantiated by Yarri not being a match for Scourge even when drawing on the Emperor's power and with a fellow Guard by her side and with Scourge distracting himself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They're both C-Canon in the old hierarchy, but any difference in TOR would be considered a retcon of Karpyshyn's account of things anyway. Which does happen a fair bit, since, you know, BioWare doesn't have any coherence with itself and keeps contradicting its own writers.

Which is their prerogative, since the Empire was their creation. With Drew just going off of their cliff-notes for the novel.


Originally posted by SunRazer
Sure, but I'd take something on-panel over some dubious accolade.

Accolades. Lassicar's statement is supported by the codex entry on the Imperial Guard, the encyclopedia entry on them and their in-game hype. All of which support the idea that they are Mando-tier and beyond in their abilities and can hang with Jedi and Sith. Even in the book they were noted to be fast enough to keep up with Meetra in terms of speed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
True, Drew contradicts himself as well. Which is why he sucks.



Originally posted by SunRazer
No, I'm saying something on-panel takes precedence, as always. And just because one guy did this doesn't mean every Imperial Guard can do it.

Naturally. But the other statements saying that they can hang with powerful Jedi and Sith do mean it. It's not like Lassicar was the leader of the Guard either, like Yarri was. And I was responding primarily to your assertion that the Guard is no match for a Sith Lord. This random member was a match for over 2 dozen of them.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, it was clearly substantiated by Yarri not being a match for Scourge even when drawing on the Emperor's power and with a fellow Guard by her side and with Scourge distracting himself.

Which only indicates how impressive Scourge is. Which was the original point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is their prerogative, since the Empire was their creation. With Drew just going off of their cliff-notes for the novel.

Actually, the Empire was created when Obsidian referenced them in KotOR II. That set up TOR.



We finally agree on something. Then again, Drew's more or less second to Denning and Traviss in stupidity.







Is this all of them at once, or over time?



Actually, the quote's from a third-person analysis of the situation. So yeah, it applies.

No, Bioware already established the Sith existance in Kotor 1. Canderous states they pushed the Mando's into war. Obsidian fleshed out the idea of a True Sith threat, unseen at that point. Bioware then took the idea and created the actual details about who they were and what they were. So it's their idea's that form concepts like the Imperial Guard. So they get to establish shit about them.

I'm not sure any Non-Force sensitive could take out over 2 dozen Sith Lords at once, lmao.

And nah, the whole thing is from Scourges perspective. It's a limited third-person's statement.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable."

-- Jedi Academy Training Manual
Every Jedi Master (and his mom) during PT era is perceived to be one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in history by his peers. This tells us nothing.

Lord Scourge have relatively superior hype:

SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Lord Scourge's peers/superiors were reluctant to even spar with him because of his skills.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Hardly. Sounds more like something to attribute to you, to be honest. I have debates with people all the time without calling them biased. It's usually a pretty extreme case when I call them out for that.
I don't find you a fair judge. So I don't care about how you perceive me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Of course. Some are more biased than others, though.
So you admit that you are biased as well? Good.

Next time you accuse me of being biased, I'll remind you this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not like I called someone out in that thread after he posted it and then ignored it completely. I didn't post anything in the thread afterwards. But if that's what you want, Dooku destroying them all is ridiculous.
Good.

Kindly declare Beniboybling biased as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Relative to some they are, but regardless, a random IG on his own isn't much compared to any of the greats.
Imperial Guards are considered to be peers of Jedi and Sith in combat.

Yes, a few Sith and Jedi will nearly stomp a lone Imperial Guard but some would loose to one as well. On average, an Imperial Guard is on par with a well-trained Jedi and/or Sith.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What are you talking about? You gave me a quote about how Scourge and Surik could blitz fodder - I responded by saying Qui-Gon could do the same and cited an instance to support that.
And what am I supposed to make of it? It doesn't establishes Qui-Gon Jinn's superiority over Lord Scourge in the slightest.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If only you applied that to yourself. Time to start taking less of the drugs and more of your own advice.



Yet again you humiliate yourself by failing to keep up with the discussion. You said it was nonsense that Obi-Wan was even in the same league as Scourge - I argued otherwise and that's still where we're at. This is what I said:



Which, if you need clarification, just means that it's not ridiculous for Scourge and Obi-Wan to be in their same tier. The furthest I've gone is say that Obi-Wan might be his equal. I never said Scourge is inferior to Obi-Wan. And the "grounds" I've based my argument on are entirely clear - that he's a near-equal to Qui-Gon Jinn, who is Scourge's better as per his superior feats and accolades. You didn't even address that - you just said "your opinion matters little", which sounds like a half-baked concession to me considering that we're in a debate and that this is a contest of opinions.
Your argument is that Qui-Gon Jinn is superior to Anoon Bondara (whose hype is nothing above norm for his time) and by virtue of this, he is superior to Lord Scourge. Your argument is subjective and weak.

@Legend - I was about to respond, but I skimmed the first point and it already gave me cancer. Read the freaking quote. It says "unmatched in the Order". That's not something every Jedi joe in the PT era has. "One of the best" and "the best" aren't the same - get it through your head.

And you asked me who perceived Bondara as the best in the Order, and I answered you with the quote. You then underline "perceived" like I had no idea what I was talking about. I know who's factually the most skilled Jedi of the time - Yoda. I'm saying that some consider Bondara to be the most skilled Jedi of his time, which is a really good accolade as far as reputation's concerned. Academy instructors being reluctant to face Scourge doesn't mean the square root of jack shit in comparison.

As for all the bias crap - of course everyone's biased. Some are simply more biased, like you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Bioware already established the Sith existance in Kotor 1. Canderous states they pushed the Mando's into war. Obsidian fleshed out the idea of a True Sith threat, unseen at that point. Bioware then took the idea and created the actual details about who they were and what they were. So it's their idea's that form concepts like the Imperial Guard. So they get to establish shit about them.

As far as I know, there was no hidden Sith Empire identity in the original KotOR, just that there were Sith. The first time it was actually mentioned was in KotOR II.



Precisely. Him killing them individually over time in suspect circumstances doesn't make him all that great.



Seems like it switches to Scourge's perspective after the first paragraph, but I'll check again tomorrow. It's past midnight here.

K, go get some rest.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Legend - I was about to respond, but I skimmed the first point and it already gave me cancer. Read the freaking quote. It says "unmatched in the Order". That's not something every Jedi joe in the PT era has. "One of the best" and "the best" aren't the same - get it through your head.

And you asked me who perceived Bondara as the best in the Order, and I answered you with the quote. You then underline "perceived" like I had no idea what I was talking about. I know who's factually the most skilled Jedi of the time - Yoda. I'm saying that some consider Bondara to be the most skilled Jedi of his time, which is a really good accolade as far as reputation's concerned. Academy instructors being reluctant to face Scourge doesn't mean the square root of jack shit in comparison.

As for all the bias crap - of course everyone's biased. Some are simply more biased, like you.
That revelation actually affirms the fallibility of opinion of those Jedi. It doesn't places him even on par with Qui-Gon Jinn. It just tells us that Anoon Bondara have considerable dueling skills. This is not a standout accolade (far from it).

Lord Scourge's accolade is not from the perspective of anybody but authoritative. He is affirmed as an expert swordsman who wields his weapon with such level of expertise it that it appears to be an extension of his will. His skills are such that even his instructors became reluctant to spar with him at some point. This is an impressive accolade (not something you come across very often).

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
To be fair tho, Meetra is unquestionably Revan Scourge's superior, at least.

As for the fight, Revan Scourge dies, SWTOR Scourge stalemates or maybe wins.

SWTOR Scourge would whoop AotC Kenobi.

I don't think he'd whoop, but he'd win. How much does Kenobi improve from AotC to RotS?

A very significant amount.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That revelation actually affirms the fallibility of opinion of those Jedi. It doesn't places him even on par with Qui-Gon Jinn. It just tells us that Anoon Bondara have considerable dueling skills. This is not a standout accolade (far from it).

Lord Scourge's accolade is not from the perspective of anybody but authoritative. He is affirmed as an expert swordsman who wields his weapon with such level of expertise it that it appears to be an extension of his will. His skills are such that even his instructors became reluctant to spar with him at some point. This is an impressive accolade (not something you come across very often).

The level of self contradiction here is beyond staggering, but hardly surprising coming from you. Someone who didn't know better might assume that the first and second paragraph were from two opposing debaters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That revelation actually affirms the fallibility of opinion of those Jedi. It doesn't places him even on par with Qui-Gon Jinn. It just tells us that Anoon Bondara have considerable dueling skills. This is not a standout accolade (far from it).

Lord Scourge's accolade is not from the perspective of anybody but authoritative. He is affirmed as an expert swordsman who wields his weapon with such level of expertise it that it appears to be an extension of his will. His skills are such that even his instructors became reluctant to spar with him at some point. This is an impressive accolade (not something you come across very often).

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/016/729/large.jpg

> being considered good by no-name lightsaber instructors = solid 10/10 accolade
> being considered the best swordsman in the entire Jedi Order = meaningless subjective opinion

0/10 solid Ant tier logic

It's the fact he manages to massively contradict himself in the same frigging post.

Wow. That's cartoonish.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The level of self contradiction here is beyond staggering, but hardly surprising coming from you. Someone who didn't know better might assume that the first and second paragraph were from two opposing debaters.
Care to elaborate the contradiction in my post?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
> being considered good by no-name lightsaber instructors = solid 10/10 accolade
Those instructors perceived Lord Scourge good that they became reluctant to confront him at some point (Their identity was not important for the story by the way).

Your half-truths are not even amusing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
> being considered the best swordsman in the entire Jedi Order = meaningless subjective opinion
Not a single source confirms Anoon Bondara as the best swordsman in the entire Jedi Order. The relevant revelation is that while some peers of Anoon perceived him to be the best swordsman in the Order, Anoon himself disagreed with this assessment. The same revelation then confirmed that Anoon was inferior to Qui-Gon Jinn in skill but had considerable skills nonetheless. Nothing ****ing grand here. Every Jedi Master (and his mom) is stated to have considerable dueling skills during PT era.

Your have comprehension problem, kid. You need to go back to school.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
0/10 solid Ant tier logic
Your falsehood have no limits.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That revelation actually affirms the fallibility of opinion of those Jedi. It doesn't places him even on par with Qui-Gon Jinn. It just tells us that Anoon Bondara have considerable dueling skills. This is not a standout accolade (far from it).

Lord Scourge's accolade is not from the perspective of anybody but authoritative. He is affirmed as an expert swordsman who wields his weapon with such level of expertise it that it appears to be an extension of his will. His skills are such that even his instructors became reluctant to spar with him at some point. This is an impressive accolade (not something you come across very often).

Trying my hardest to move aside the blatant double standards here, but I KNOW that those Jedi were wrong about Bondara being the best. The simple fact of the matter is that if he can get a respectable amount of people to think that he's the best in the Order, he's obviously very good.

Those instructors who were afraid of challenging Scourge have nothing to their name. They could well be fodder. I don't know how you reckon that them being hesitant to face Scourge comes off as better than Bondara being widely regarded as not one of the best, but THE best in the Order. You either fail to comprehend it (hence your "this is not a standout accolade", or you're deliberately trying to undersell it because you're out of options.

By the way, making your lightsaber become an extension of your will is something that every Jedi/Sith is trained to do. That's the objective of you wielding a lightsaber. Any reputable practitioner of a lightsaber can turn his weapon into an extension of his will. I find it mind-numbingly difficult to believe that you can so casually undersell Bondara's accolade yet inject such unrelenting fervor into upholding Scourge's clearly inferior accolades. But of course, that's why you contradicted yourself...

Originally posted by SunRazer
"Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable."

-- Jedi Academy Training Manual

That's hardly Bondara's only hype;

Source: Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

And, of course, Darsha believing she isn't even a tenth of Anoon and she managed to handle Maul for a bit:


Source: Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Why is Qui-Gon VS Scourge even a debate? lol

I like how Legend tries to refute my argument by pointing out something I already made clear in the first...

You know Leg, even by your standards I'm really shocked that you're having such a tough time grasping this, and that instead of feeling embarrassment over your inability, you decide to insult and condescend on others for their jealously superior cognitive faculties. This might actually be worse than your "Vitiate's telepathy is scarier!" argument, and I thought that was going to remain on the throne of your lolfailures for a little longer than that.

Essentially your entire case is that Bondara wasn't actually the best swordsman in the order, so his accolade is inferior to Scourge's. This is sh*t, Ant-tier logic. The fact that Bondara was even considered as a candidate for that position is more impressive than Scourge's intimidating of lightsaber instructors. Analogously, someone who is the runner up for NFL mvp is probably a better football player than someone who is named the best high school football player in his state, even though the latter technically "won" while the former didn't. An Olympic silver medalist is likewise better than a regional high school champion. Do you get the gist? Your grasp of - I guess it's really an intuitive statistical analysis - is pretty wanting.

Dumbed down version: second best in a world tournament > first place in a state tournament. Does that make sense?


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those instructors perceived Lord Scourge good that they became reluctant to confront him at some point (Their identity was not important for the story by the way).

Your half-truths are not even amusing.


I would be reluctant to play a one on one basketball game with my friend Chris. I also think Stephen Curry is the best basketball player in the world. By your logic, the former actually signals more than the latter. Thankfully, most societal systems do not employ your logic.

BTW, their reluctance is derived from their PERCEPTION of Scourge's abilities, which means that your accolade faces the same fallibility weakness that you've trotted on ours for. That I actually have to explain this to you is truly, and utterly astounding.



BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

The self-contradiction here is actually too ridiculous to believe. I feel like I'm watching a character in a sitcom. Or maybe you're secretly the most subtle troll that has ever graced KMC.

--------

In high school, I was able to solve some calculus problems faster than my teacher could. A lot of kids in my class said that I could explain concepts to them better than said teacher.

Many people consider Terence Tao to be the greatest mathematician in the world, but I wouldn't be surprised if Terence would deny it, and it's very possible that there are others who are superior.

By your Ant-tier logic, I must be better at math than Terry Tao.

Now I'm not sure if you can understand analogies very well, so I'll be a little more forthright: yes, Anoon is not actually the best duelist in the era . But the fact that he was even seriously considered is STILL a superior accolade in spite of his losing to Qui-Gon to making some instructors reluctant to face him.

Seriously, everyone else has gotten it. Why can't you?




Given your age and demonstrated debating ability, I somehow doubt that you did very well in school yourself. You shouldn't tempt me to try to go after your personal life.



How many years is it going to take to learn the difference between "has" and "have"?

slaughtered.

I love it when debaters resort to insults such as age, ability, just to shoot them down for having different opinions from gathered info.

*Takes a sip*

Its just funny to read.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You know Leg, even by your standards I'm really shocked that you're having such a tough time grasping this, and that instead of feeling embarrassment over your inability, you decide to insult and condescend on others for their jealously superior cognitive faculties. This might actually be worse than your "Vitiate's telepathy is scarier!" argument, and I thought that was going to remain on the throne of your lolfailures for a little longer than that.
You have superiority complex, my friend. Not cool.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Essentially your entire case is that Bondara wasn't actually the best swordsman in the order, so his accolade is inferior to Scourge's. This is sh*t, Ant-tier logic. The fact that Bondara was even considered as a candidate for that position is more impressive than Scourge's intimidating of lightsaber instructors. Analogously, someone who is the runner up for NFL mvp is probably a better football player than someone who is named the best high school football player in his state, even though the latter technically "won" while the former didn't. An Olympic silver medalist is likewise better than a regional high school champion. Do you get the gist? Your grasp of - I guess it's really an intuitive statistical analysis - is pretty wanting.

Dumbed down version: second best in a world tournament > first place in a state tournament. Does that make sense?

I would be reluctant to play a one on one basketball game with my friend Chris. I also think Stephen Curry is the best basketball player in the world. By your logic, the former actually signals more than the latter. Thankfully, most societal systems do not employ your logic.

BTW, their reluctance is derived from their PERCEPTION of Scourge's abilities, which means that your accolade faces the same fallibility weakness that you've trotted on ours for. That I actually have to explain this to you is truly, and utterly astounding.
Fair enough.

I still don't find Anoon Bondara's revelation more impressive at all. Anoon (himself) disagreed with the opinion of his peers about his skills and the revelation explicitly pointed out that he was inferior to Qui Gon Jinn. The revelation is actually calling a spade a spade.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

The self-contradiction here is actually too ridiculous to believe. I feel like I'm watching a character in a sitcom. Or maybe you're secretly the most subtle troll that has ever graced KMC.

--------

In high school, I was able to solve some calculus problems faster than my teacher could. A lot of kids in my class said that I could explain concepts to them better than said teacher.

Many people consider Terence Tao to be the greatest mathematician in the world, but I wouldn't be surprised if Terence would deny it, and it's very possible that there are others who are superior.

By your Ant-tier logic, I must be better at math than Terry Tao.

Now I'm not sure if you can understand analogies very well, so I'll be a little more forthright: yes, Anoon is not actually the best duelist in the era . But the fact that he was even seriously considered is STILL a superior accolade in spite of his losing to Qui-Gon to making some instructors reluctant to face him.

Seriously, everyone else has gotten it. Why can't you?
Every Jedi Master (and his mom) was held in high regard during PT era. Anoon's hype is similar to that of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin and Sora Bulq. Nothing special.

"I concede" is a lot easier to type.

Originally posted by AncientPower
"I concede" is a lot easier to type.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I still don't find Anoon Bondara's revelation more impressive at all. Anoon (himself) disagreed with the opinion of his peers about his skills and the revelation explicitly pointed out that he was inferior to Qui Gon Jinn. The revelation is actually calling a spade a spade.

So he's a humble guy, like any other Jedi. Not sure how this disproves his skills in combat.

Anoon's example was provided to argue Qui-Gon Jinn's superiority over Lord Scourge in the aspect of dueling. It doesn't, and I am not conceding this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have superiority complex, my friend. Not cool.


I do feel superior to you, yes, and apparently the feeling is mutual. But your ability to partially concede your argument is pretty admirable tbh, at least compared to the likes of Neph and Ant. That's not saying much, but it's a legit plus.



So it turns out that Anoon isn't the best, but as I had said, his accolade is still more impressive in spite of this. Say a bunch of boxing experts really hype this guy and think he's potentially the best in the world, and yet he ends up losing to someone else with a similar reputation. Yes, it's true that he wasn't the best (well, he might have gotten unlucky - but ignore that). But the mere fact that he was considered a candidate by reputable sources is an incredibly impressive decoration. That he happens to be the fifth or sixth instead of the first doesn't change that. It would only change things if we conclude that the experts in question were outright delusional and he was a charlatan, but that's highly unlikely here - Anoon would have sparred with other Jedi, it's not like he was bluffing his way through things.

Meanwhile, this random boxer who intimidates his instructors probably isn't as good as the world champion candidate.



So because Anoon isn't special compared to Fisto, Kolar, Tinn and Bulq, he must not be special compared to Scourge? Where did you draw that link?

By that logic, Adam D'Angelo must not be a more prolific software engineer than I am. After all, he had placed in international coding competitions, but lots of people have. I, meanwhile, sometimes solved problems faster than my high school CS teacher. Therefore I must be better.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anoon's example was provided to argue Qui-Gon Jinn's superiority over Lord Scourge in the aspect of dueling. It doesn't, and I am not conceding this.
Yet it does, Anoon's reputation is infinitely better than Scourge's, and Qui-Gon's ability to "humble him" in a fight and hold off Maul are superior to Scourge fighting fodder and having trouble with someone noted to be no match against a Sith on a substantial Dark Side Nexus.

^ who is that person who is no match for a sith again?

Captain Yarri is stated to be no match for a 'Trained Sith Lord" in Lord Scourge.

I don't recall it being Scourge, just a trained Sith in general:

I thought you were referring to the Emperor's guard, my bad.