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Which is more impressive, and why?

Are we comparing the universe to a single planet?

For this thread let's ignore that.

Sheev can cast multiple storms, and insta-summon them, meaning he can unleash multi-planetery level destruction with a thought, meaning he is still superior

When has he ever cast multiple storms, or "insta summoned" them? I don't remember that happening in Dark Empire. The "threat" of consuming the galaxy is theoretical at best since we haven't see him doing anything approaching that. Vitiate's rituals are much more impressive in terms of their efficiency. Both times he completely exterminated the planet population.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
When has he ever cast multiple storms, or "insta summoned" them? I don't remember that happening in Dark Empire. The "threat" of consuming the galaxy is theoretical at best since we haven't see him doing anything approaching that. Vitiate's rituals are much more impressive in terms of their efficiency. Both times he completely exterminated the planet population.

Vitiate did Ziost while not weakened and he grew from draining the planet as well. Furthermore, Sidious' Storms aren't planetary. A fleet is still minuscule compared to a planet.

I've never seen the quote that says he can incite multiple storms at once, only that multiple storms had been seen in multiple star systems.

That said, Force storms can kill worlds by affecting organic and inorganic life, can overwhelm starfleets, can transport matter across interstellar distances, and can threaten to consume all of space.

They're wayyyyyy superior in pretty much every respect tbh.

Yeah, Force Storms are superior.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I've never seen the quote that says he can incite multiple storms at once, only that multiple storms had been seen in multiple star systems.

That said, Force storms can kill worlds by affecting organic and inorganic life, can overwhelm starfleets, can transport matter across interstellar distances, and can threaten to consume all of space.

They're wayyyyyy superior in pretty much every respect tbh.

It can "kill worlds" similar to how I can wipe out the dirt in my house. It doesn't mean my vacuum's got house-sized suction (thats you), just that I can vacuum up a bit at a time. Sidious has never demonstrated a Storm that's planetary in scale, or close to it.

More versatile perhaps, not necessarily superior. I think that the Drain empowering Vitiate while also destroying all life is more effective than being able to transport stuff. And the Dread Masters can handle fleets, so Vitiate probably can as well.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The "threat" of consuming the galaxy is theoretical at best since we haven't see him doing anything approaching that.

Even if we ignore the universe consuming quote, we still have several that reference the storms' ability to "tear the surfaces off of worlds" or whatever. That far outstrips anything Vitiate's ever done in terms of raw destructive power.

And no, we haven't even seen this happen, but since when are narrative declarations invalid if they aren't specifically corroborated by a visible event? They still stand as accurate descriptions, they're not in-universe speculations as you claim they are.



The energy needed to tear apart a fleet is actually far greater than the energy needed to kill everyone on a planet - the latter can be done by a frigate in a few hours, lol, whereas the former would require a comparatively superior fleet far in excess of what you need to perform a base delta zero. What's more impressive is that Palpatine can summon these storms:

Across galactic distances
From his own raw power
Without rituals or prep
To teleport people lightyears with pinpoint precision

Vitiate's only advantage is the fact that it makes him immortal or whatever - but in terms of destructive potential, it really isn't close.

Nah, he just created a storm that threatened to consume all of space... Which is exponentially greater than mere planetary tier tbh.

The notion that it could only do it a little at a time is unattested. That logic says Force lightning could kill worlds if given sufficient time... But no source ever remotely implies as much, let alone says it.

The logic that because the Dread Masters can do stuff so too can Vitiate means Palp can too, by being the most powerful Sith ever.

A single star destroyer can easily perform a base delta zero and turn a planetary surface to molten lava, which would far exceed what Vitiate's rituals can do. A single star destroyer logically could not destroy a fleet of star destroyers within a reasonable amount of time. Palpatine's storms can.

GG you're better off bragging about the immortality thing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The notion that it could only do it a little at a time is unattested. That logic says Force lightning could kill worlds if given sufficient time... But no source ever remotely implies as much, let alone says it.

The logic that because the Dread Masters can do stuff so too can Vitiate means Palp can too, by being the most powerful Sith ever.

It doesn't need to be said, lol. It's size and destructive ability as has been shown give it that limitation. We don't give people feats beyond what they've shown like we're a charity or something. What it's shown to be capable of is what it's capable of. Force Lightning isn't a large enough attack to destroy much before the wielder died of old age or the world recovered faster than they destroyed it. Sidious' storm has been said to be capable of tearing the surface off of worlds, though I don't believe it says all the surface. But given it's largest shown size and if he could maintain it for long enough, he could sweep it across a planet and destroy it that way. That doesn't make it a planet-busting attack though.

Sidious can destroy fleets, so yeah?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The energy needed to tear apart a fleet is actually far greater than the energy needed to kill everyone on a planet
It took thousands of Sith to pull off a Ziost-like feat. You underestimate planetary-scale feats way too much.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't need to be said, lol. It's size and destructive ability as has been shown give it that limitation. We don't give people feats beyond what they've shown like we're a charity or something. What it's shown to be capable of is what it's capable of. Force Lightning isn't a large enough attack to destroy much before the wielder died of old age or the world recovered faster than they destroyed it. Sidious' storm has been said to be capable of tearing the surface off of worlds, though I don't believe it says all the surface. But given it's largest shown size and if he could maintain it for long enough, he could sweep it across a planet and destroy it that way. That doesn't make it a planet-busting attack though.

Sidious can destroy fleets, so yeah?

> says we don't give people feats beyond what they've shown
> wants to do that with the Dread Masters/Vitiate

lol

Force storms are said to be able to "kill worlds," "tear the surfaces off worlds," and "threaten to consume all of space." Its ability to destroy planets is consistently affirmed.

Yeah I mean that Sidious can obviously do anything any other Sith can do since he's clearly more powerful than any of them. Same logic.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A single star destroyer can easily perform a base delta zero and turn a planetary surface to molten lava, which would far exceed what Vitiate's rituals can do. A single star destroyer logically could not destroy a fleet of star destroyers within a reasonable amount of time. Palpatine's storms can.
Really?

Can they vaporize oceans? Vaporize living beings? Extensively harm the planet's atmosphere?

You underestimate severity of Vitiate's demonstration way too much.

Palpy's Force storm destroying the Eclipse > planet busting tbh. But as profoundly different powers its difficult to make a comparison between them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Palpy's Force storm destroying the Eclipse > planet busting tbh.
Eclipse is comparable to a planet in size, right.

Nobody cares what the force storm threatened to do. I can threaten to solo a nightmare mode operation, doesn't mean i can follow through. Both of vitiates rituals destroyed the entire planet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Can they vaporize oceans? Vaporize living beings? Extensively harm the planet's atmosphere?


Yep. They can reduce the upper mantle of a planet to molten slag, blast away its atmosphere, and vaporize all oceans (ICSII).

Destroying an Eclipse Super Star Destroyer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vitiate's rituals.

Your mentioning that 8000 sith lords were needed is a mark against Vitiate, not for him, lol. It doesn't tell us about its power independent of the actual effects.

Edit

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Nobody cares what the force storm threatened to do. I can threaten to solo a nightmare mode operation, doesn't mean i can follow through. Both of vitiates rituals destroyed the entire planet.

It didn't destroy the entire planet, given...the planet was still there.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Nobody cares what the force storm threatened to do. I can threaten to solo a nightmare mode operation, doesn't mean i can follow through. Both of vitiates rituals destroyed the entire planet.

You could literally issue that threat via speaking, yeah.

Since Force storms can't talk, pretty sure it refers to a different definition of threaten lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yep. They can reduce the upper mantle of a planet to molten slag, blast away its atmosphere, and vaporize all oceans (ICSII).
Provide solid evidence.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Destroying an Eclipse Super Star Destroyer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vitiate's rituals.
Bullshit.

Eclipse is just a dot in comparison to a solar object like planet.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your mentioning that 8000 sith lords were needed is a mark against Vitiate, not for him, lol. It doesn't tell us about its power independent of the actual effects.
WTF?

I was referring to Nathema. It proves that planetary-scale feats are extremely challenging and demanding tasks for even Force-users.

Nathema tells us how much Vitiate has grown (in a span of over 1000 years since) and how much punch his Ziost-based showing packed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Eclipse is comparable to a planet in size, right. Lol no but it can feasibly tank in excess of planet busting power.Originally posted by The_Tempest
You could literally issue that threat via speaking, yeah.

Since Force storms can't talk, pretty sure it refers to a different definition of threaten lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol no but it can feasibly tank in excess of planet busting power.
This is based on?

Jog your memory maybe? This argument isn't new.

It's superior to the Executor, which shrugged off three ISDs colliding with it as hyperspeed, one cruiser collision of such kind devastating a planet by fracturing its core. Ergo. the Eclipse should be capable of tanking planet-busting impacts and possibly more.

Saxton's Incredible Cross Sections primarily. I'll get you the quotes when I'm not working. Those sources give explicit firepower output ratings - the medium turbolasers of an Acclamator troop transport output 200 gigatons a shot, .ie multiple times the world's nuclear arsenal. An Acclamator can turn the upper mantle of a planet to molten slag in about an hour's bombardment.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's superior to the Executor, which shrugged off three ISDs colliding with it as hyperspeed, a lesser collision of such kind that has fractured a planet. Ergo. the Eclipse should be capable of tanking planet-busting impacts and possibly more.
And which planet was that?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Provide solid evidence.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And which planet was that? Pammant ring any bells?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Saxton's Incredible Cross Sections primarily. I'll get you the quotes when I'm not working. Those sources give explicit firepower output ratings - the medium turbolasers of an Acclamator troop transport output 200 gigatons a shot, .ie multiple times the world's nuclear arsenal. An Acclamator can turn the upper mantle of a planet to molten slag in about an hour's bombardment.
About an hour? Again, you have any example to cite?

A 9.5 richter-scale earthquake released energy equivalent to 0.119E+08 atomic bombs. The Earth is doing fine.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You could literally issue that threat via speaking, yeah.

Since Force storms can't talk, pretty sure it refers to a different definition of threaten lol. the principle applies

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
the principle applies

Not really lol.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
> says we don't give people feats beyond what they've shown
> wants to do that with the Dread Masters/Vitiate

lol

Force storms are said to be able to "kill worlds," "tear the surfaces off worlds," and "threaten to consume all of space." Its ability to destroy planets is consistently affirmed.

Yeah I mean that Sidious can obviously do anything any other Sith can do since he's clearly more powerful than any of them. Same logic.

I said probably for a reason. It's logical to conclude it seeing as Vitiate was their pimp for hundreds of years, has access to their knowledge base and more and is superior to them. Sidious can't be so easily compared to them.

And I said that they could do both of those things. Just not immediately, with a slow process of destruction. The scale of the attack simply isn't great enough to do anything else. Sidious hasn't shown that he can spread his storm over an entire planet like Vitiate's weakened drain could.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Pammant ring any bells?
Pammant was like a gigantic factory with massive man-made openings/tunnels inside the planet's surface. Due to this reason, Pammant was often labelled as "Tunneled planet." Those tunnels would have made it easier for powerful shockwaves to reach and affect its core. Another thing is that we don't know how big this planet is.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really lol. the point is we don't really know what the force storm would have done. We saw what vitiates rituals have done.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Pammant was like a gigantic factory with massive man-made openings/tunnels inside the planet's surface. Due to this reason, Pammant was often labelled as "Tunneled planet." Super shockwaves could easily reach and affect its core. Seriously? As if any of those tunnels went beneath the planet's crust, what proof is there that suggests they affected its stability?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
the point is we don't really know what the force storm would have done. We saw what vitiates rituals have done.

Sure we do. It could consume all of space. Ziost is minor league stuff next to that kinda power.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Seriously? As if any of those tunnels went beneath the planet's crust, what proof is there that suggests they affected its stability?
Those tunnels were so massive that the planet itself was often dubbed as "tunneled planet." This planet had underground Starship manufacturing facilities.

My point is that powerful shockwaves could travel through those tunnels and reach the crust of the planet easily in this manner. We also don't know how big this planet is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It can "kill worlds" similar to how I can wipe out the dirt in my house. It doesn't mean my vacuum's got house-sized suction (thats you), just that I can vacuum up a bit at a time. Sidious has never demonstrated a Storm that's planetary in scale, or close to it.

NGL I like this analogy.

Yeah well you suck almost as much as Neph's hypothetical house-sized Hoover.

Repent, don't encourage the heretic.

You're my hypothetical house-sized Hoover, dear.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those tunnels were so massive that the planet itself was often dubbed as "tunneled planet." Can you provide sources to support this? How 'massive' are these tunnels stated to be exactly?Do you geology? The crust is the outermost layer of a planet, go outside and you are standing on it. These "shockwaves" reached and fractured the planet's core, thousands of kilometers beneath the crust. A bunch of tunnels on the surface are nowhere near that deep.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sure we do. It could consume all of space. Ziost is minor league stuff next to that kinda power. theoretically. We aren't interested what the force storm could theoretically do, we are instructed in what the rituals have done.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're my hypothetical house-sized Hoover, dear.

Doesn't make any sense, I exist. Misfire bro.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Doesn't make any sense, I exist. Misfire bro.

Hey Tempest do you have any commands for me milord?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
theoretically. We aren't interested what the force storm could theoretically do, we are instructed in what the rituals have done.

Since you've historically cited Vitiate's Galaxy slurping ritual as a demonstration of great mastery despite it never actually happening, this seems fishy.

Galaxy slurping ritual? Wha?

Think back to the plot of vanilla TOR.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Hey Tempest do you have any commands for me milord? You really need a life.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Think back to the plot of vanilla TOR. what about it? Did he consume the galaxy? He didn't? Hmm i wonder why i didn't mention it again.

Preeeeeeeettty sure you did. I'll have to search when I'm in front of a full keyboard. mmm

Originally posted by Zenwolf




An imperial star destroyer's heavy turbolasers output teratons a shot. An Eclipse super star destroyer is like a hundred times more powerful (it has the reactor output of a medium star).

Palpatine destroying one with a storm is MASSIVELY superior to Vitiate wiping out life on a planet - that's shit a frigate could do.

This closes the discussion, even if we buy this bizarre argument that sourcebook statements should be taken as "speculation" unless if we see it in a comic panel or novel.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


An imperial star destroyer's heavy turbolasers output teratons a shot. An Eclipse super star destroyer is like a hundred times more powerful (it has the reactor output of a medium star).

Palpatine destroying one with a storm is MASSIVELY superior to Vitiate wiping out life on a planet - that's shit a frigate could do.

This closes the discussion, even if we buy this bizarre argument that sourcebook statements should be taken as "speculation" unless if we see it in a comic panel or novel.

Yea no, 1 star destroyer can't wipe out a planet. That's a terrible argument to make. Comparing a giant force storm is one thing, comparing a star destroyer to a complete annihilation of a planet is really reaching.

An SSD can tank planet-busting impact tho.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
An SSD can tank planet-busting impact tho.

He said a regular star destroyer and have we seen an SSD actually do anything resembling that or is this all a desperate rationalization?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yea no, 1 star destroyer can't wipe out a planet. That's a terrible argument to make.

Wrong. As has been provided to you, base delta zeroes are a thing, and a single star destroyer can do it - heck, a single Acclamator troop transport can. This is both stated by sourcebook narrators and actually detailed in various stories. Star destroyers can wipe out worlds.



It's not reaching, it's canon, lol. Saxton's ICS's were not only explicitly backed by Leland Chee, he said that they were the first sources he'd look at for firepower figures. Saxton gives an Acclamator medium troop transport's medium turbolasers 200 gigatons a shot - that's multiple times the output of the world's nuclear arsenal at the height of the cold war. An imperial star destroyer has dozens of heavy turbolasers several times the size, and each can fire about once every two seconds. Do the math.

(you don't need to do the math, actually, since the existence and ability of base delta zeroes has already been canonized)

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
He said a regular star destroyer and have we seen an SSD actually do anything resembling that or is this all a desperate rationalization? And I said an SSD, as in the Eclipse Star Dreadnought Palpatine destroyed, which can feasibly tank impacts in excess of this:

http://i.imgur.com/nRuT6Nb.png

That's 3 ISD's colliding with the Executor as lightspeed.

Also the Executor canonically has the power output of a "medium star", .ie around 10^26 watts, and presumably can devote at least some of this to its shields, seeing as how the ICSIII states that a Venator can divert almost all of its reactor power to its heavy turbolasers if it wants to.

And the Eclipse possesses a super-laser that can wipe-out continents, so I imagine its reactor output was in considerable excess of that.

From a purely destructive standpoint, force storms see to be "better". Vitiate's Ziost ritual, however, seems far more useful.

I don't really know why we're comparing two abilities that fall under such different areas of the Force. It's essentially like comparing a TK feat to a TP feat.

Ok so the sidious crew is now arguing that one of the imperial ships could PROBABLY destroy a planet if it wanted to. Thats where we are at now with the reaching.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Ok so the sidious crew is now arguing that one of the imperial ships could PROBABLY destroy a planet if it wanted to. Thats where we are at now with the reaching.

No, silly, the "sidious crew" has provided you with authoritative sources depicting imperial ships actually turning planetary surfaces to molten slag (this is literally a standard operation - base delta zero), and other sources telling you that they actually overpower the world's combined nuclear arsenal by six orders of magnitude. This isn't speculation, this is what the literature says.

Now of course, star destroyers can't mass-scatter planets Alderaan style - but neither can Vitiate, so who cares? The important part is that destroying a fleet is infinitely more impressive than wiping out all life on a planet, given that the latter can be accomplished by a troop transport. And Palpatine can do this without a ritual, prep, a nexus or anything but his raw power and will.

Vitiate loses.

I'm starting to think you don't know what "sources" mean. You type a few sentence, say its in some book, and move on. That's not how this works. Then you decide to desperately reduce vitiate's power by screaming , "well uh a ship can do something similar. " This chain of events and throwing darts at a board leads me to believe you don't really think vitiate loses

http://media.hollywood.com/images/l/Emperor-Palpatine.jpg

The Emperor approves of this carnage.

As for its relevance to the thread topic, this has also been explained to you. If a single destroyer can exceed Vitiate's destructive abilities, it obviously isn't as impressive as a Storm that can wipe out an Eclipse super star destroyer, seeing as how we can clearly see that it takes the combined firepower of the entire Rebel fleet to take down a weaker Executor.

Now that the firepower of an ISD and the durability of an SSD have been established beyond reproach, can you succinctly state your position as it pertains to this thread? Closing remarks, if you will.

Ninja'd

Originally posted by The Ellimist
As for its relevance to the thread topic, this has also been explained to you. If a single destroyer can exceed Vitiate's destructive abilities, it obviously isn't as impressive as a Storm that can wipe out an Eclipse super star destroyer, seeing as how we can clearly see that it takes the combined firepower of the entire Rebel fleet to take down a weaker Executor.

It's still more impressive given what one man was able to do vs. trying to compare it to a giant ship. All we have with Palpatine's force storms is what he theoretically could do.

And I hesitate to ask how long it would take to annihilate a planet using one of those ships because it's undoubtedly longer than the time it took Vitiate
to destroy Ziost.

Edit: I'm also trying to see from those quotes if the destruction would be as complete as Vitiate's rituals.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
It's still more impressive given what one man was able to do vs. trying to compare it to a giant ship. All we have with Palpatine's force storms is what he theoretically could do.

And I hesitate to ask how long it would take to annihilate a planet using one of those ships because it's undoubtedly longer than the time it took Vitiate
to destroy Ziost.

Edit: I'm also trying to see from those quotes if the destruction would be as complete as Vitiate's rituals.

Per the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, a BDZ operation reduces a "planet's crust to molten slag." That's in vast excess of Vitiate's Ziost ritual.

As far as how long? The Star Wars Technical Journal says a matter of hours.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
It's still more impressive given what one man was able to do vs. trying to compare it to a giant ship. All we have with Palpatine's force storms is what he theoretically could do.


...no? He actually destroyed an Eclipse super star destroyer. Not to mention that statements of what he could do by official sourcebooks stand as evidence, and cannot be dismissed for being "theoretical".



Nope, seeing as how an Acclamator can divert around e24 watts to its heavy turbolasers, which are orders of magnitude in excess of the most liberal estimates for what would be needed to start a nuclear winter.



It says that it would not only destroy all life, but all resources, factories, minerals, etc. Not to mention it would reduce the planet's surface to molten lava. Did Vitiate reduce Ziost to molten lava?

BTW I'm being really generous to you by being lazy and not digging up Saxton's descriptions, which were backed by Leland Chee as the authoritative source for firepower specifications .

This makes about as much sense as using Vitiate's galaxy wide ritual should he ever complete one, since it's as theoretical as what Sidious "would do", especially since Vitiate was stated that he "could do it" too.

...yes? If a third person omniscient narrator said that, I would take it as true unless if it were contradicted by other sources, in which case we would have to analyze which ones were more reliable, or somehow reconcile them. That's better than your method of just dismissing everything you don't like on face, lol.

BTW, unless if you're planning on editing your post, you have a lot of work to do defending the rest of your argument, since if it fails the theoretical part doesn't matter - what Palpatine actually did is still more impressive.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
This makes about as much sense as using Vitiate's galaxy wide ritual should he ever complete one, since it's as theoretical as what Sidious "would do", especially since Vitiate was stated that he "could do it" too.

The codex says Vitiate "intends" to conduct that kind of ritual. Does it ever actually say that it could be pulled off?

Paging Neph

Oh the irony (another concept you don't appear to understand) Lol.


Based on your debating skills, that would be like me taking basketball pointers from my cat. The theoretical part absolutely makes sense. Just because you keep saying it doesn't, doesn't mean it doesn't. I know you seem to think if you say something enough times that it will become true, but I'm afraid life doesn't work that way


I'm 99% sure various members of the dark council mention that he can and will do it once enough deaths are triggered. So if that IS the case, then we decide to either argue theoretical, or we don't.

lol dude you've literally devolved into deleting arguments. You just dropped the ball on the base delta zero and eclipse star destroyer thing.



How does this continue the conversation of whether OOU narrators are reliable sources?



How is this an actual argument? You literally said nothing of substance here. You said "the theoretical part absolutely makes sense" and then neglected to actually argue anything.


At this point your debating skills have devolved into literally nothing - you just gave up on even saying anything.

Again, no idea what you're talking about. It appears you're really desperately trying to make things up.


Yes I've already said that to you. Repeating me makes you prove my point.

Try to follow along. I said if we're discussing theoretical situations, then Vitiate's galaxy wide ritual can be used in said discussion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The codex says Vitiate "intends" to conduct that kind of ritual. Does it ever actually say that it could be pulled off?

Paging Neph

The codex doesn't, I think. But Swtore and I believe the mission info does say that he could pull it off. The Act III screen might say it too.

The Wrath also has a vision of him pulling it off.

Since we're talking about Ziost, who cares?

1. How do you refute the evidence provided that destroying an Eclipse Super Star Destroyer is significantly more energetic than wiping out life on a planet?

2. How is this "theoretical", when he actually destroyed an eclipse super star destroyer?

3. Why are OOU narrator statements "theoretical" rather than official statements to be taken as a part of the universe in question, when the latter interpretation has been supported by Leland Chee?

4. Why is point 3 relevant when you never bothered to respond to points 1 and 2?

Follow along. We aren't talking about Ziost anymore because if we're introducing theoretical vs. practical, that's pretty stupid and theoretical should be argued vs. theoretical.


Why exactly would I do that? Your argument is "well a machine can do what a man can do". What am I supposed to refute here, lol?


Wtf are you talking about? When did I say statements are theoretical? At this point I'm convinced you just want to keep typing until I stop, rather than having a debate.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Follow along. We aren't talking about Ziost anymore because if we're introducing theoretical vs. practical, that's pretty stupid and theoretical should be argued vs. theoretical.


That's idiotic. The entire point of having theoretical models is to test them against empirical results, lmao.



No, the point here is that it takes more energy to perform a base delta zero than to destroy an Eclipse super star destroyer, and so Sidious's Storms are more destructive.



I said:



And you said:



If you never denied what "I said", then why did you claim it was wrong? LOL

* less energy

You know that a drain isn't actually intended to be destructive, right? Sidious' attack being "more destructive" wouldn't mean its superior or requires more power to achieve. Since it's an actual offensive attack instead of a drain.

That's idiotic. You don't get to take a theoretical power and claim it's better than what we've actually seen. You test that against another theoretical power, especially if said power is comparable. Again, at this point I'm convinced you're just trying to get the last word in instead of adding anything logical.

That would only be true if the goal were to compare Sidious and Vitiate in their totalities. It wasn't; I just wanted to compare Sidious's Storms to a specific ritual of Vitiate's (Ziost). His galaxy ritual require a f*ckton of setup and prep, and so it's hardly of the same scale. If you want to compare the galaxy rituals to Force storms, you can make your own thread, lol.

BTW, you still seem to think that destroying eclipse super star destroyers is theoretical. I'd told you like six times by now that he actually destroyed one. Every time you literally delete this part from your reply. Interesting.

The only interesting thing here is you making things up in the face of failure yet again. I didn't once claim destroying a star destroyer was theoretical. At least if you were strawmanning your way to victory, I could appreciate it a little. The fact that you're strawmanning yourself into defeat is just said. Now are you going to provide something I actually said, or are you going to continue making up my arguments for me?

So if he did destroy a super star destroyer, and you stopped responding to the analysis that it's more impressive than wiping out life on a planet, then Sidious's Force storms are more impressive, no need for the "theoretical" at all.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Ok so the sidious crew is now arguing that one of the imperial ships could PROBABLY destroy a planet if it wanted to. Thats where we are at now with the reaching. Well no that wasn't my argument, rather than Palpatine destroyed a vessel that can tank planet-busting impact, his Force storms are therefore of a planet busting magnitude.

EDIT: Though the fact that using the same reactor output the Eclipse can bust planets certainly reinforces this argument.

Just like Valkorion's lightning, since Marr can tank more than a planetary shield. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1341734200.gif

uhuh

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Just like Valkorion's lightning, since Marr can tank more than a planetary shield. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1341734200.gif

wat

Lighten up, bottom b!tch.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


BTW I'm being really generous to you by being lazy and not digging up Saxton's descriptions, which were backed by Leland Chee as the authoritative source for firepower specifications .

He did? Where?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Can you provide sources to support this? How 'massive' are these tunnels stated to be exactly?
Large enough to house Starship manufacturing facilities inside and the planet itself being labelled as "tunneled" due to them?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do you geology? The crust is the outermost layer of a planet, go outside and you are standing on it. These "shockwaves" reached and fractured the planet's core, thousands of kilometers beneath the crust. A bunch of tunnels on the surface are nowhere near that deep.
I know that.

My point is that tunnels in Pammant are implied to be enormous. Therefore, shockwaves could travel through them and reach the crust .

Also, you are assuming that Pammant is a large planet. We don't really know if its crust was thousands of km beneath the surface. It could be in hundreds.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


An imperial star destroyer's heavy turbolasers output teratons a shot. An Eclipse super star destroyer is like a hundred times more powerful (it has the reactor output of a medium star).

Palpatine destroying one with a storm is MASSIVELY superior to Vitiate wiping out life on a planet - that's shit a frigate could do.

This closes the discussion, even if we buy this bizarre argument that sourcebook statements should be taken as "speculation" unless if we see it in a comic panel or novel.
This is such a pathetic argument. You are not just comparing apples and oranges but also presenting logical fallacies.

Force Storm is a wormhole with blackhole-like properties (wormholes are often dubbed as quantum-entangled blackholes). Should there be no tail at its end, a Force Storm will behave like a blackhole and consume matter in its path for as long as it lasts.

Now, durability of matter/object/machine is meaningless vis-a-vis a blackhole and similar manifestations (should the matter/object/machine be on the receiving-end of such destructive energies) because a blackhole can consume even atoms. And everything comes down to atoms at its tiniest level. Even a micro-blackhole can consume/actually consumes atoms for as long as it lasts.

Your point is that an ISD is like a 'atomic bomb' in motion whose explosion could theoretically wipe out a city. This is all meaningless when an ISD comes into contact with a blackhole or similar manifestation, it will be literally consumed to the last atom. The sheer toughness/power output/destructive power of an ISD will be utterly useless against such manifestations.

---

It took combined might of just dozen (or so) Force-users to push an entire fleet of ISDs outside a Star System. They are not that hard to affect. Force-users are largely hindered by mindset.

Now, do you think that those Force-users could move a planet like that? No, they could not. Not even close. Because a planet is enormous in mass, infinitely larger then any Starship.

Similarly, it takes combined might of a dozen (or so) Force-users to conjure a Force Storm as well, with little practice. Conjuring this power is not a mammoth task; Palpatine learned to do it single-handedly after years of practice.

In contrast, it took 8000 Sith to conjure an expression of Force Drain that would consume all life in the planet and reduce it to a barren wasteland. Reason is that it was too much area to cover and affect. Again, the purpose of Force Drain is entirely different from that of Force Storm; Force Drain powers are intended to affect and/or consume living beings (not matter). However, raw power involved in a planetary-scale attack can be humongous.

Honestly, a fight between Vitiate and Sidious would go something like

https://i.imgflip.com/14808n.gif

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Honestly, a fight between Vitiate and Sidious would go something like

https://i.imgflip.com/14808n.gif


It is impossible to blitz Valkorion because the latter can manipulate space-time continuum as shown in KoTFE. Your argument is moot.

When disembodied yes. Shit works differently when the spirit is disembodied because it doesn't physiologically measure time tbh.

He's... obviously trolling, LeGenD.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is impossible to blitz Valkorion because the latter can manipulate space-time continuum as shown in KoTFE. Your argument is moot.

Huh? What was that? I couldn't hear you over

https://i.imgflip.com/14808n.gif

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. How do you refute the evidence provided that destroying an Eclipse Super Star Destroyer is significantly more energetic than wiping out life on a planet?
Have a good look at the size of Force Storm:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/63715/1719310-1640326_force_storm_1_super.jpg

The Force Storm was much larger than the vessels it consumed. The durability of a vessel is largely irrelevant vis-a-vis a blackhole and similar manifestations because they literally consume atoms. Mass is most important factor.

The same Force Storm would not be able to consume a planet on such a short notice because a planet have infinitely larger mass then a Starship. This is further evident from the fact that that Force Storm destroyed an alliance base on a moon but not the moon itself when it came into contact with the said moon.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
When disembodied yes. Shit works differently when the spirit is disembodied because it doesn't physiologically measure time tbh.
He did that while being housed in the Outlander.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He did that while being housed in the Outlander.
Who he is confirmed to not be possessing, so...
https://i.imgflip.com/1480cv.gif

To further add to the intelligent comment by Freshest,

https://i.imgflip.com/1480ub.gif

These gifs please me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well no that wasn't my argument, rather than Palpatine destroyed a vessel that can tank planet-busting impact, his Force storms are therefore of a planet busting magnitude.

EDIT: Though the fact that using the same reactor output the Eclipse can bust planets certainly reinforces this argument.
You are as much deluded as the other member Ellimist regarding this matter.

Do you even understand the concept of blackholes and similar manifestations? They consume matter by virtue of consuming atoms. The properties of matter are largely irrelevant via-a-vis a blackhole or similar manifestation.

It doesn't matters if an atomic bomb can wipe out a city; should it come into contact with a blackhole or similar manifestation, it will be consumed and its explosive power would be irrelevant.

The most important aspect is mass of the matter. If the Force Storm is much larger then a vessel, it will consume it on short notice. However, same Force Storm would not be able to consume a planet on such a short notice because the planet have infinitely larger mass then any Starship and the Force Storm is more likely to dissipate before it can consume the planet unless it can be sustained for months.

All of the above is apparent even in the example of Palpatine's last Force Storm. It easily consumed vessels in its path because it was much larger then them and it also came into contact with a moon below and destroyed an Alliance Base but not the moon itself. That Force Storm faded before it could consume the moon itself.

Which honestly makes it even more impressive from the standpoint of raw destructive power. And we also know from Luke's account that Force Storms can kill worlds. So really it's got the best of both worlds.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who he is confirmed to not be possessing, so...
https://i.imgflip.com/1480cv.gif
He is not a corporeal being, so...

Another name for a noncorpral being is a spirit.
https://i.imgflip.com/14819o.gif

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Which honestly makes it even more impressive from the standpoint of raw destructive power. And we also know from Luke's account that Force Storms can kill worlds. So really it's got the best of both worlds.
This is subjective.

One consumes atoms. Other consumes only life-forms.

Yes, a Force Storm can kill a world, should it be large enough to do the job. It depends upon the size of the Force Storm. Luke's remark is generic.

It could. It could also depend on how fast hyperspace storms can travel.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is subjective.

One consumes atoms. Other consumes only life-forms.

Uh, hello? Welcome to the thread. Please take this time to look around:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I don't really know why we're comparing two abilities that fall under such different areas of the Force anyway. It's essentially like comparing a TK feat to a TP feat.

Furthermore, I didn't even address the Ziost feat, so I don't really know why you're even bringing it up.

https://i.imgflip.com/1481rc.gif

Legend why are you applying real world physics to literal space magic?

Because Ellimist?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Large enough to house Starship manufacturing facilities inside and the planet itself being labelled as "tunneled" due to them?So a few kilometers deep at best.Then why do you keep describing the crust as if its the core?

Again there is no evidence to suggest there tunnels extend beneath the crust, meaning the shockwaves would have to travel through thousands of kilometers of matter to reach and fracture it's core. And of course its not hundreds of kilometers in diameter, its not a dwarf planet or a moon.

And seeing as the source material makes no mention of these tunnels being a factor in it's devastation, I see no reason to entertain your rather hairbrained theories, especially considering you can't even prove these tunnels were present at the site of impact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Ellimist? Even Eliminists argument are better than this.

Heck in the real-world even a wormhole is an entirely theoretical concept and in Star Wars they are not stated to have any destructive properties. Going on to assume Palpatine's space magic has the properties of a black hole is absurd in the extreme.

I can't tell if you're being serious.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Even Eliminists argument are better than this.

Heck in the real-world even a wormhole is an entirely theoretical concept and in Star Wars they are not stated to have any destructive properties. Going on to assume Palpatine's space magic has the properties of a black hole is absurd in the extreme. I couldn't agree more. But I just meant that Ellimist started this line of thinking, I believe Legend is merely responding to him.

Golden thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Ellimist?

The validity of real world physics to certain domain limits is effectively canonized by Saxton's ICS's, and furthermore can be effectively deduced from the same epistomological assumptions we use for all of these debates. It's actually a pretty regarded sub-group of vs. debating. This has been repeated to you dozens of times by now, but like the brainless loser you are, it still hasn't gotten through.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


BTW I'm being really generous to you by being lazy and not digging up Saxton's descriptions, which were backed by Leland Chee as the authoritative source for firepower specifications .

Ell if you didn't see before, where was this said by him? Source?

https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=155079

I might dig for the primary source when I've time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=155079

I might dig for the primary source when I've time.

Oooo! I like this very much! Awesome. Though would for sure like the primary source, when you have the time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So a few kilometers deep at best.Then why do you keep describing the crust as if its the core?
Those factories were churning out 4 km long Starships (e.g. Malevolence); therefore, those tunnels would be much deeper then a few km to house such facilities and build Starships of such sizes.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Again there is no evidence to suggest there tunnels extend beneath the crust, meaning the shockwaves would have to travel through thousands of kilometers of matter to reach and fracture it's core. And of course its not hundreds of kilometers in diameter, its not a dwarf planet or a moon.

And seeing as the source material makes no mention of these tunnels being a factor in it's devastation, I see no reason to entertain your rather hairbrained theories, especially considering you can't even prove these tunnels were present at the site of impact.
This is Star Wars, my friend! Expect anything in it. This planet is labelled "tunneled planet" for a reason. I don't think that it would earn such a label from standard tunneling.

Moreover, we don't have data about the size of Pammant. It could be a dwarf planet or moon-sized. Planets significantly vary in sizes.

Hairbrained theories? No. Common sense? Yes. A heavily tunneled environment is likely to facilitate shockwaves in reaching deeper parts of the world from a catastrophic events.

---

The Malevolence Starship was also sent crashing into a moon:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/5/5b/Malevolence_boom.png/revision/latest?cb=20120918231137

Nothing significant happened to the moon, I suppose.

Hey Legend. Might I ask you a favor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Also, we don't have data about the size of Pammant. It could be a dwarf planet or moon-sized.

Or it could be five times the size of earth. How big was Ziost, again?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Do you even understand the concept of blackholes and similar manifestations?

LMAO! This is pretty ironic, given your hilarious buffoonery with respect to Luke Skywalker's singularity manipulation. I'm pretty sure you don't really have much of an understanding of black hole physics, kek.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Have a good look at the size of Force Storm:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/63715/1719310-1640326_force_storm_1_super.jpg

The Force Storm was much larger than the vessels it consumed. The durability of a vessel is largely irrelevant vis-a-vis a blackhole and similar manifestations because they literally consume atoms. Mass is most important factor.


A black hole of that size could easily suck up a planet or a star given a amount of time. Thanks for the concession, I guess.



Why would Sidious bother? He wasn't trying to destroy the moon.

BTW, it's not a matter of mass. Two-body problems aside, the mass of the thing being acted on doesn't affect the local gravitational field because the force acting on it increases proportional to the mass and they cancel out on both sides. Galileo proved this several hundred years ago. It only matters when its mass is fairly large and you have to take into account how it accelerates the other body too, but this would actually make it more.

Please don't condescend to people on black holes if you don't know heavy objects fall as fast as lighter ones.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Or it could be five times the size of earth. How big was Ziost, again?
I really doubt that an ISD would fracture core of a planet 5 times as big as Earth while crashing into it at great speeds. I doubt that this kind of incident would do something significant to even an Earth-like planet. In-fact, Earth have taken significant abuse during the course of its existence, FYI.

No data available on the size of Ziost either. But it have 2 moons and dwarf both in size.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I really doubt that an ISD related incident would fracture core of a planet 5 times as big as Earth. I doubt that it would do something significant to even Earth. In-fact, Earth have taken significant abuse during the course of its existence, FYI.


"FYI", this is a nonsensical argument. Just vaguely declaring that the Earth has taken abuse before doesn't demonstrate that an imperial star destroyer, a fictional technological construction capable of massively faster than light travel, couldn't affect it. You'd need to run calculations, or at least give a reasonable framework of a case, lmao.

BTW, you're once again grasping at straws and just dismissing sources you don't like - what's new? The firepower and power generation abilities of imperial warships are officially documented in various literature, some of which has been provided to you. Furthermore, we can calculate it from the films themselves by looking at events like acceleration feats and scaling from the Death Star. This isn't a real question. You should drop it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those factories were churning out 4 km long Starships (e.g. Malevolence); therefore, those tunnels would be much deeper then a few km to house such facilities and build Starships of such sizes.Right, again a handful of kilometers, nothing approaching thousands of even hundreds.And yet you appeal to common sense? What part of common sense suggests this planets has tunnels burrowing beneath the crust and all the way into the core? Even past the planet's immediate layer they'd find viscous lava flows were no facility could feasibly be sustained, there is nothing common sense about it.

It being called a "tunnelled" planet being more likely a matter of quantity than depth.So in the absence of evidence your assuming its a tiny moon with tunnels burrowing all the way to the core? Because that makes sense over assuming an average size, when we're given no reason to believe its anything other than average? And indeed we could just as easily assume the planet was massive by this logic.No its not, as I've explained to you, it defies logic and common sense for these tunnels to even reach beneath the crust. And if that were the case, the source would have explictly said so, it did not, so we should assume it was not a significant factor. Again you can't even prove it hit a tunneled area.You have evidence as to the after effects? As if nothing happened lol.

Legend is hilariously ignorant of elementary physics, which is fine. But then he tries to lecture and condescend to people with it, and that's when it just becomes pathetic.

Tbf, you all sound legit retarded comparing two vastly different things in a pathetic attempt to shamelessly wank.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Hey Legend. Might I ask you a favor.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Tbf, you all sound legit retarded comparing two vastly different things in a pathetic attempt to shamelessly wank. Originally posted by Beniboybling
Palpy's Force storm destroying the Eclipse > planet busting tbh. But as profoundly different powers its difficult to make a comparison between them. I made my stance clear on the first page, not my fault you can't read.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Tbf, you all sound legit retarded comparing two vastly different things in a pathetic attempt to shamelessly wank.

Yeah, comparing different things isn't something anyone does.

In terms of destructive power, yeah, they really aren't comparable. They're meant to accomplish vastly different goals.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I made my stance clear on the first page, not my fault you can't read.
Then I obviously wasn't talking to you, feb. uhuh

Originally posted by The Ellimist
"FYI", this is a nonsensical argument. Just vaguely declaring that the Earth has taken abuse before doesn't demonstrate that an imperial star destroyer, a fictional technological construction capable of massively faster than light travel, couldn't affect it. You'd need to run calculations, or at least give a reasonable framework of a case, lmao.

BTW, you're once again grasping at straws and just dismissing sources you don't like - what's new? The firepower and power generation abilities of imperial warships are officially documented in various literature, some of which has been provided to you. Furthermore, we can calculate it from the films themselves by looking at events like acceleration feats and scaling from the Death Star. This isn't a real question. You should drop it.
The comet that struck Earth about 65 million years ago, released energy equivalent to 100 Trillion Tons of TNT (750 times more powerful then total energy output of entire nuclear arsenal at present).

Another, much larger comet struck Earth about 3.3 billion years ago. It literally produced 11 richter scale Earthquakes. One cannot easily comprehend the energy output of this event.

In-fact, humans have endured a 9.5 richter scale Earthquake not long ago. The most powerful in recorded history whose energy output was equivalent to 0.119E+08 atomic bombs.

Guess what? Earth is doing fine.

Earth is lot more resilient then you imagine it to be.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
One cannot easily comprehend the energy output of this event.


I can. That's around 500 gigatons, or only about twice the per-shot output of a medium turbolaser of an Acclamator transport. An imperial star destroyer is like ten times larger, and has several times as many heavy turbolasers, each of which surpasses that figure with every shot, and can fire about once every other second.

You don't know shit about what you're talking about, and yet you're still trying to lecture me on it! LMAO

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I can. That's around 500 gigatons, or only about twice the per-shot output of a medium turbolaser of an Acclamator transport. An imperial star destroyer is like ten times larger, and has several times as many heavy turbolasers, each of which surpasses that figure with every shot, and can fire about once every other second.

You don't know shit about what you're talking about, and yet you're still trying to lecture me on it! LMAO
1102311310 Tons = 1 Gigaton

499999999999 Tons = 500 Gigatons

100,000,000,000,000 Tons = 90718 Gigatons (Chicxulub event)

The event that I am referring to dwarfs the energy output of Chixculub event.

You said it was an 11 on the richter scale. That's around 500 gigatons.

Even the Chicxulub event is less than the per-second power output of an imperial star destroyer, lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You said it was an 11 on the richter scale. That's around 500 gigatons.


I said that it produced 11 richter scale Earthquakes across the world. The sheer energy output of this event is difficult to comprehend (hell a lot more then that of Chicxulub event).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Even the Chicxulub event is less than the per-second power output of an imperial star destroyer, lol.
Really? Bullshit.

The sheer energy output of Chicxulub event is 90718 gigatons.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I said that it produced 11 richter scale Earthquakes across the world. The actual amount of energy released was much much greater.


Really? Bullshit.

Then why don't you actually tell us what the output was, instead of trying to argue via vague analogies and descriptive language?

Your physics knowledge is sh*t, you think heavier objects fall locally faster than lighter ones, you don't even understand what the numbers you're throwing around actually mean, what are you trying to prove here?

Even the K-T extinction event is nothing next to what a star destroyer's main guns can do.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Really? Bullshit.

The sheer energy output of Chicxulub event is 90718 gigatons.

And a Venator star destroyer's peak reactor is 3.4*10^24 joules. You obviously don't understand what you're coming up against.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Then why don't you actually tell us what the output was, instead of trying to argue via vague analogies and descriptive language?

Your physics knowledge is sh*t, you think heavier objects fall locally faster than lighter ones, you don't even understand what the numbers you're throwing around actually mean, what are you trying to prove here?

Even the K-T extinction event is nothing next to what a star destroyer's main guns can do.
You ****ing piece of shit, recheck my posts. I have posted concrete figures already. Here again:

1102311310 Tons = 1 Gigaton

499999999999 Tons = 500 Gigatons

100,000,000,000,000 Tons = 90718 Gigatons (Chicxulub event)

The event that I am referring to dwarfs the energy output of Chixculub event.

Damn Ell. Your mere posts cause salt.