Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Hopefully the mod allows this:

The war takes place in Kirk's era (new films). Who wins this epic fight? The First Order with leaders like Snoke and Kylo Ren or The Federation with commanders like Kirk and Pike?
https://youtu.be/KLCrAb_ESw8

Nope.



Plus there's not much material for the FO yet, to really put them in battles imo.

Guess you could put it over in the Movies VS tho.

Starkiller base destroys the Sol System, then 3 star destroyers solo the entire Alpha Quadrant (as in Romulans, Klingons, Fed's, etc)

Something tells me you crave my opinion on this matter, boy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fWgUSq-8FY4



The Ot era looks pathetic.

I crave nothing. I only wish you to be enlightened, and cease your foolish idolization of the inferior Star Trek

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I crave nothing. I only wish you to be enlightened, and cease your foolish idolization of the inferior Star Trek Watch the clip. I think Star Wars the idea is far better than Star Trek. I can't stand the original prime timeline. It's awful. I love the new Kelvin timeline though. You can clearly see even with the link though that the prime timeline looks more impressive than the Ot era who I've been on record for saying is weak and overrated. I am objective.


Conversely the Kelvin timeline is a lot more formidable than the Ot era. Leaps and bounds. They'd chew them up and spit them out.

You realize that I'm actually on topic with my points here, right? The difference is you haven't mentioned something on topic beyond comparing special effects from 1980 to that of 2009

Originally posted by Tondemonai
You realize that I'm actually on topic with my points here, right? The difference is you haven't mentioned something on topic beyond comparing special effects from 1980 to that of 2009 So you concede on the link I posted. Excellent. The Trek special effects in the link is on a much lower budget but the damage is clearly more impressive than the Star Wars ships, characters.

Whatever helps you sleep, go ahead and believe it

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Whatever helps you sleep, go ahead and believe it Well it's pretty cut and dry. Not saying it covers the entire spectrum but it is telling. You'll see first hand when the Kelvin gangbang of the Ot era takes place this December.

Lol

Kelvin Timeline should take them with moderate difficulty tbh. The Dreadnought (Admiral Marcus' ship) is more than powerful enough to defeat a couple SDs, and the Kelvin Enterprise is definitely a match for just about anything. Also, if we include ships like the Narada, First Order is absolutely ****ed. Also, was it the Federation at this point? I thought it was still just Star-Fleet.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Lol Do you doubt me ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Do you doubt me ?

I do

Originally posted by darthbane77
Kelvin Timeline should take them with moderate difficulty tbh. The Dreadnought (Admiral Marcus' ship) is more than powerful enough to defeat a couple SDs, and the Kelvin Enterprise is definitely a match for just about anything. Also, if we include ships like the Narada, First Order is absolutely ****ed. Also, was it the Federation at this point? I thought it was still just Star-Fleet.

Since you're sensible and not drowning in Trek-cum, why do you say this?

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I do



Since you're sensible and not drowning in Trek-cum, why do you say this? It is rather amusing you doubt me when I issued this challenge your Star Wars balls shriveled up and were nowhere to be found.

Kelvin timeline>>Ot era.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I do



Since you're sensible and not drowning in Trek-cum, why do you say this? Because the original timeline for Trek is already comparable to the SW ship tech imo, and the Kelvin timeline is actually MORE advanced militarily speaking. The ships in the Kelvin timeline are more powerful than anything from the prime timeline, the Kelvin Enterprise alone is probably equal to the Enterprise-E (prime timeline.) And the Dreadnought raped the Kelvin Enterprise. The fight would be a relatively good one, but I think the Kelvin timeline ships are just more powerful and more advanced.

Again, using a comparison of GCI and such from 1980 to that of 2009 as the basis for your argument is retarded. The reason I refuse to debate with you is the same reason you don't try to tell a Catholic priest that god doesn't exist. They're far too closed-minded and refuse to listen to reason since the dick of Christ is so far down their throat it's too late to try telling them anything else.

Tondemonai knows deep down we are correct about the Kelvin timeline being greater than the Ot era.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Again, using a comparison of GCI and such from 1980 to that of 2009 as the basis for your argument is retarded. The reason I refuse to debate with you is the same reason you don't try to tell a Catholic priest that god doesn't exist. They're far too closed-minded and refuse to listen to reason since the dick of Christ is so far down their throat it's too late to try telling them anything else. Ironic comment since Star Wars is more faith based in the force than Trek which is more science based. You are a dogmatic Star Wars cum drinker who doesn't look at this objectively. Care to at least feign objectivity for my sake ?

Kelvin timeline is better than the OT era, but the OT would still give a fight. But that's irrelevant, as this is the First Order.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Kelvin timeline is better than the OT era, but the OT would still give a fight. But that's irrelevant, as this is the First Order. Both the Kelvin timeline and the First Order would hammer the Ot era. We have at least two more films for the First Order so it's too early to tell. I'd rather debate the Kelvin vs the Ot era.

On a ship to ship basis then the Kelvin timeline does stomp the OT era. If it's a full scale war and we're talking fleet vs fleet battles, the OT wins by virtue of numbers. They far outnumber Star-Fleet, even though Kelvin Starfleeet is more advanced.

Which is common sense, the First Order is a better match because there are far fewer of them than there are of the Empire in the OT.

Originally posted by darthbane77
On a ship to ship basis then the Kelvin timeline does stomp the OT era. If it's a full scale war and we're talking fleet vs fleet battles, the OT wins by virtue of numbers. They far outnumber Star-Fleet, even though Kelvin Starfleeet is more advanced. In a full scale war with every character and ship we see on screen both good and bad guys aligned Kelvin timeline beats the crud off the Ot era. Do you agree ?

Originally posted by darthbane77
Which is common sense, the First Order is a better match because there are far fewer of them than there are of the Empire in the OT. First Order is superior to the Ot era. Better trained troops, better leadership, and better battle station.

You two clearly don't know anything about the Empire's and First Order's naval capabilities. Phasers don't have the power to breach SW shields, and Photon Torpedoes lack the destructive force to reliably damage any Imperial cruiser. Additionally, do you think that Trek shields will last long against a single volley of ion cannon fire? Hell no. Dreadnaught would get oneshot by even an ISD-1. The Executor would solo the Voth.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
You two clearly don't know anything about the Empire's and First Order's naval capabilities. Phasers don't have the power to breach SW shields, and Photon Torpedoes lack the destructive force to reliably damage any Imperial cruiser. Additionally, do you think that Trek shields will last long against a single volley of ion cannon fire? Hell no. Dreadnaught would get oneshot by even an ISD-1. The Executor would solo the Voth. You sound like a completely closed minded tool who is a Star Wars fanatic. Yes, they do based off the evidence whereas smaller rebel ships can break through their shields.

Yes, I definitely believe so. You laughably overrate the Star Wars ships. We have seen Star Wars technology get destroyed by primitive ewoks. Just stop now because you are just making fanboyish claims without anything to back them up. Anyone can just randomly state bullshit.

Originally posted by quanchi112
First Order is superior to the Ot era. Better trained troops, better leadership, and better battle station.

Better leadership? Hardly. I'm not seeing a Veers or Piett or Vader within the FO.

Better troops? Outside of melee combat? Not really no.

Originally posted by quanchi112
First Order is superior to the Ot era. Better trained troops, better leadership, and better battle station. **** no they aren't. The Empire>>>First Order.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In a full scale war with every character and ship we see on screen both good and bad guys aligned Kelvin timeline beats the crud off the Ot era. Do you agree ? **** no.

On a SHIP TO SHIP level, Kelvin timeline is superior, but in a full scale war or in a battle between two fleets; the Empire crushes them.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Better leadership? Hardly. I'm not seeing a Veers or Piett or Vader within the FO.

Better troops? Outside of melee combat? Not really no. Snoke and Kylo.

Vader is overrated.

Yes, we have clearly seen their troops are far more capable in combat than the Stormtroopers of the Ot era. Quit making excuses for the piss poor empire.

Originally posted by darthbane77
**** no they aren't. The Empire>>>First Order. You are out of your mind.

Originally posted by darthbane77
**** no. You are wrong.

Originally posted by darthbane77
On a SHIP TO SHIP level, Kelvin timeline is superior, but in a full scale war or in a battle between two fleets; the Empire crushes them. I said all good and bad guys aligned. You're forgetting about the Khan, Klingons, Narada, Krall, his swarm, etc.

What we see in the films Ot gets hammered.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
You two clearly don't know anything about the Empire's and First Order's naval capabilities. Phasers don't have the power to breach SW shields, and Photon Torpedoes lack the destructive force to reliably damage any Imperial cruiser. Additionally, do you think that Trek shields will last long against a single volley of ion cannon fire? Hell no. Dreadnaught would get oneshot by even an ISD-1. The Executor would solo the Voth. Actually, I do. Kelvin timeline doesn't just use phasers, they also use plasma cannons. I have a growing knowledge of the Trek universe, I'm not extremely knowledgeable but I know more than most (most meaning casual fans.) Star Wars tech is kind of hard to judge tbh, as the in-universe stats and the visual representations don't always seem to agree.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Actually, I do. Kelvin timeline doesn't just use phasers, they also use plasma cannons. I have a growing knowledge of the Trek universe, I'm not extremely knowledgeable but I know more than most (most meaning casual fans.) Star Wars tech is kind of hard to judge tbh, as the in-universe stats and the visual representations don't always seem to agree.

Would you like to share your knowledge then? Because none of the bias, usually baseless bs that Quanchi posts has suaded me in any way to think that the Enterprise could even handle a troop transport, let alone an ISD. This whole time I've been talking in terms of pure naval warfare, ground combat isn't even a conversation worth having since it's so far in SW's favor.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Would you like to share your knowledge then? Because none of the bias, usually baseless bs that Quanchi posts has suaded me in any way to think that the Enterprise could even handle a troop transport, let alone an ISD. This whole time I've been talking in terms of pure naval warfare, ground combat isn't even a conversation worth having since it's so far in SW's favor. Says the guy who hasn't used a shred of evidence to back his baseless claims.

ISD's aren't very maneuverable. You claim they are too powerful for the Trek ships to handle. What is this based off ?

Who needs ground combat when they can take planets out or decimate ground troops with their ships from the air.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Snoke and Kylo.

Vader is overrated.

Yes, we have clearly seen their troops are far more capable in combat than the Stormtroopers of the Ot era. Quit making excuses for the piss poor empire.

Neither Snoke or Kylo haven't done anything as far as tactics go, they haven't led troops nor have they commanded in space battles.

Veers and Piett have done that, Vader has also.

Not really, the FO troops did what exactly? Raid a run down village and a cantina and capture Han, Chewie and Finn right?...Before getting rescued.

Ok...let's compare.

Now the GE Storms, overran a Rebel defended force aboard the Tantive IV, they crushed an entire Rebel base and capture a Rebel Strike Force consisting of Han Solo, Chewie, Leia and a group of SpecForce. Before being saved.

The FO Troops clearly aren't superior as of 1 movie, can they be superior? Sure, but that remains to be seen.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Would you like to share your knowledge then? Because none of the bias, usually baseless bs that Quanchi posts has suaded me in any way to think that the Enterprise could even handle a troop transport, let alone an ISD. This whole time I've been talking in terms of pure naval warfare, ground combat isn't even a conversation worth having since it's so far in SW's favor. The Kelvin timeline ships are designed to be more powerful than the prime timeline ships. TNG era ships would be capable of destroying SDs, and Kelvin era ships are superior to TNG era ships. I'll use the Dreadnought as an example. Created for the sole purpose of combat, it has more powerful weapons and better shields than any other ship in the mythos (aside from maybe the Narada.) SW shields are not terribly strong to be completely honest, they're easily depleted and can hardly even defend against asteroids. A Star-Fleet vessel equipped with phasers, plasma cannons and photon torpedoes should have little problem breaking SW shields. And,if I'm not mistaken, Trek shields cannot be damaged by lasers. Again, I'm only in the fledgling stage of learning my shit about Trek; but I'm coming along.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Neither Snoke or Kylo haven't done anything as far as tactics go, they haven't led troops nor have they commanded in space battles.

Veers and Piett have done that, Vader has also.

Not really, the FO troops did what exactly? Raid a run down village and a cantina and capture Han, Chewie and Finn right?...Before getting rescued.

Ok...let's compare.

Now the GE Storms, overran a Rebel defended force aboard the Tantive IV, they crushed an entire Rebel base and capture a Rebel Strike Force consisting of Han Solo, Chewie, Leia and a group of SpecForce. Before being saved.

The FO Troops clearly aren't superior as of 1 movie, can they be superior? Sure, but that remains to be seen. Kylo has led troops into battle.

Snoke is their leader so he pulls the strings. When did Palpatine lead them into battle ? He gave the orders Vader followed. Same thing goes for Kylo.

Yes, they did so. We also see Finn is capable of handling himself while he was beaten by a stormtrooper.


GE storms were also crushed by ewoks and a few rebels minus Luke. Yes, they have been portrayed as more capable based off their combat feats, beating Finn, Finn grazing an injured Kylo, etc.

Guess what Kylo killed Han. Did anyone in the empire do so ?? **** no !!

Better leadership my ass lol. Palpatine is presumably>Snoke and Vader is >>>>>>Kylo as of now.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Kylo has led troops into battle.

Snoke is their leader so he pulls the strings. When did Palpatine lead them into battle ? He gave the orders Vader followed. Same thing goes for Kylo.

Yes, they did so. We also see Finn is capable of handling himself while he was beaten by a stormtrooper.


GE storms were also crushed by ewoks and a few rebels minus Luke. Yes, they have been portrayed as more capable based off their combat feats, beating Finn, Finn grazing an injured Kylo, etc.

Guess what Kylo killed Han. Did anyone in the empire do so ?? **** no !!

I mean actually lead them in combat, Kylo just arrived after the combat was done or went after Rey, we never really see him fighting alongside his men.

Veers did that, Vader did that with his TIE piloting too.

I didn't bring up Palpatine, bringing up Snoke and Palps is worthless here, they didn't show anything in leading troops in combat nor fighting on battlefields.

In melee combat, I already said the FO Troops shown better melee combat, so not sure why you brought it up. I'm talking about outside of melee, which is what I noted in my first post.

Kylo killing Han is irrelevant, that wasn't in combat and we're talking about the Troopers here.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Better leadership my ass lol. Palpatine is presumably>Snoke and Vader is >>>>>>Kylo as of now. You are out of your ever loving mind if you don't agree Snoke is better than Palpatine. The dumbass handed the empire on a platter to the rebels due to his arrogance. He also completely trusted Vader while he was in the process of killing Luke. Naive and moronic.

Vader is horse shit. He couldn't even be genuine about his own feelings. Kylo resisted the light Vader fell back in head first.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I mean actually lead them in combat, Kylo just arrived after the combat was done or went after Rey, we never really see him fighting alongside his men.

Veers did that, Vader did that with his TIE piloting too.

I didn't bring up Palpatine, bringing up Snoke and Palps is worthless here, they didn't show anything in leading troops in combat nor fighting on battlefields.

In melee combat, I already said the FO Troops shown better melee combat, so not sure why you brought it up. I'm talking about outside of melee, which is what I noted in my first post.

Kylo killing Han is irrelevant, that wasn't in combat and we're talking about the Troopers here. We see him freeze Poe right along side the troopers he was attacked nearby. Quit with your hypocritical double standards here. That's fighting. There goes your biased point.

So the guys giving the orders to their generals isn't important. Oh dear lord what am I to do with someone as naive as yourself who believes the overall leaders do no matter.

One part of the argument you already agree why not go a little further.

No, it is relevant since he did what Vader could not remain on the dark side.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Says the guy who hasn't used a shred of evidence to back his baseless claims.

ISD's aren't very maneuverable. You claim they are too powerful for the Trek ships to handle. What is this based off ?

Who needs ground combat when they can take planets out or decimate ground troops with their ships from the air.

I've cited and referenced all of my arguments, and you have never done anything remotely close to backing up your claims in a single thread.

I don't disagree that it has terrible maneuverability; but it isn't a problem when Trek ships lack the firepower to weaken the shields. The DS9 technical manual says that a photon torpedo has a maximum theoretical output of 62 megatons. If you do the math, the destructive output of a photon torpedo by TNG is ~500 megatons, which is still pretty minimal compared to Star Wars weaponry, given that the destructive output of a turbolaser on an Acclimator as of the Clone Wars has a destructive output of 2.4 million megatons per shot. You can ignorantly say that "numbers don't say everything" all you want, but when the numbers are off by literally two ****ing million, there's no possible way you can dismiss it and still consider yourself open-minded. If you can provide evidence to support your argument, I'd love to see it. You still have yet to do anything of the sort.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are out of your ever loving mind if you don't agree Snoke is better than Palpatine. The dumbass handed the empire on a platter to the rebels due to his arrogance. He also completely trusted Vader while he was in the process of killing Luke. Naive and moronic.

Vader is horse shit. He couldn't even be genuine about his own feelings. Kylo resisted the light Vader fell back in head first. There is NOTHING to suggest that Snoke is > Palpatine, that's idiotic bias due to your hatred of the OT; nothing more. Lol @ Vader being horseshit, because Vader's the one that got his ass handed to him by a completely untrained Rey and an ex-stormtrooper. "Kylo was wounded and that's why he lost", sure he was; but the difference is that wounded Vader is still>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rey and Finn. Your bias is obvious and nobody takes you seriously.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I've cited and referenced all of my arguments, and you have never done anything remotely close to backing up your claims in a single thread.

I don't disagree that it has terrible maneuverability; but it isn't a problem when Trek ships lack the firepower to weaken the shields. The DS9 technical manual says that a photon torpedo has a maximum theoretical output of 62 megatons. If you do the math, the destructive output of a photon torpedo by TNG is ~500 megatons, which is still pretty minimal compared to Star Wars weaponry, given that the destructive output of a turbolaser on an Acclimator as of the Clone Wars has a destructive output of 2.4 million megatons per shot. You can ignorantly say that "numbers don't say everything" all you want, but when the numbers are off by literally two ****ing million, there's no possible way you can dismiss it and still consider yourself open-minded. If you can provide evidence to support your argument, I'd love to see it. You still have yet to do anything of the sort. That is a bold faced lie. I've posted clips to support my claims while you have done no such thing.

So you want to ignore the portrayals and go off some random numbers written down somewhere. It's rather pathetic. What does his have to do with the Kelvin timeline ? We already know their ships are superior to the prime timeline.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is a bold faced lie. I've posted clips to support my claims while you have done no such thing.

So you want to ignore the portrayals and go off some random numbers written down somewhere. It's rather pathetic. What does his have to do with the Kelvin timeline ? We already know their ships are superior to the prime timeline.

The clips being barely on-topic with this thread. There's no reliable data we can pull from the clips you shared, and everything we can is blatant bias.

I'm ignoring them because, as I've said, it's biased, taking the worst of Star Wars and the best of Star Trek. The numbers I've provided are of inferior ships to what are actually being discussed in this thread. If you or Darthbane would like to provide some technical data on the Kelvin ships, please do so, but this is all we have for now. Even if the destructive output of a photon torpedo is five times greater in the Kelvin timeline than in DS9, it's still miniscule compared to that of an Acclimator from the Clone Wars, let alone an ISD.

Originally posted by darthbane77
There is NOTHING to suggest that Snoke is > Palpatine, that's idiotic bias due to your hatred of the OT; nothing more. Lol @ Vader being horseshit, because Vader's the one that got his ass handed to him by a completely untrained Rey and an ex-stormtrooper. "Kylo was wounded and that's why he lost", sure he was; but the difference is that wounded Vader is still>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rey and Finn. Your bias is obvious and nobody takes you seriously. I just told you why. Palpatine handed the rebels the war. He had the resources, the military might, the position of power, etc. Palpatine was the reason they lost the war.

For one we don't know if she's untrained. Secondly, his training isn't complete. Thirdly, Kylo was injured prior to either of those fights.

Let's compare Kylo to Vader after Kylo's training is complete.

If you knew anything about Star Wars then you'd know that the Force wanted the Rebellion to win, hence why the Ewoks beat the Empire.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
The clips being barely on-topic with this thread. There's no reliable data we can pull from the clips you shared, and everything we can is blatant bias.

I'm ignoring them because, as I've said, it's biased, taking the worst of Star Wars and the best of Star Trek. The numbers I've provided are of inferior ships to what are actually being discussed in this thread. If you or Darthbane would like to provide some technical data on the Kelvin ships, please do so, but this is all we have for now. Even if the destructive output of a photon torpedo is five times greater in the Kelvin timeline than in DS9, it's still miniscule compared to that of an Acclimator from the Clone Wars, let alone an ISD. So the clips of both films isn't reliable data ? But a manual for something not Kelvin related is more reliable ? Even you can't believe this.


Do you honestly believe either film director had a manual in front of them for these scenes ? I mean honestly do you really believe this bullshit ? Trek weapons destroy planets but then again so do Wars weapons therefore you'd assume wars weapons are greater, right ? You aren't looking at this with the same lens. You honestly say screw the actual film showings and the obvious i.e. Laser fire hitting humans from the Star Wars ships while instead proclaiming this tech manual says it's more powerful than the sun. Dear lord wipe the bias off your face.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
If you knew anything about Star Wars then you'd know that the Force wanted the Rebellion to win, hence why the Ewoks beat the Empire. So the force is the reason this happened and everything the ewoks did didn't matter since the force wanted this to occur. You're the same guy who says religion is horseshit and use the same laughable reasoning to justify Wars embarrassing showings. You're as bad as a religious fanatic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So the clips of both films isn't reliable data ? But a manual for something not Kelvin related is more reliable ? Even you can't believe this.


Do you honestly believe either film director had a manual in front of them for these scenes ? I mean honestly do you really believe this bullshit ? Trek weapons destroy planets but then again so do Wars weapons therefore you'd assume wars weapons are greater, right ? You aren't looking at this with the same lens. You honestly say screw the actual film showings and the obvious i.e. Laser fire hitting humans from the Star Wars ships while instead proclaiming this tech manual says it's more powerful than the sun. Dear lord wipe the bias off your face.

Again, what material is there that is reliable is completely bias, and you know it, hence why you shared it. Don't try to deny it, all you use is move shit, even though we can barely use them as reference since we don't know how phasers will affect SW shields, and how turbolasers will affect ST shields, but with the information provided from far more in-depth material, we can make EDUCATED statements, rather than looking at something and assuming something that is likely inaccurate. I'm still waiting for something as reliable as what I've provided involving the Kelvin ships, not just assumptions based on comparing two unlike things. You can call me bias all you want, but it won't change the fact that I have the superior argument.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So the force is the reason this happened and everything the ewoks did didn't matter since the force wanted this to occur. You're the same guy who says religion is horseshit and use the same laughable reasoning to justify Wars embarrassing showings. You're as bad as a religious fanatic.

Again, if you understood SW, you would understand. I'm nothing like the religious fanatics, I'm merely stating a fact.

Insult me all you like, It doesn't change that I'm providing a better argument.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
If you knew anything about Star Wars then you'd know that the Force wanted the Rebellion to win, hence why the Ewoks beat the Empire.

Technically, Chewie did by highjacking the AT-ST, the whole battle turned around in the Rebel's favor(the script, the novel and the comic note this). Before that, it was clear in favor of the Empire.

This will go on for over 100 pages.

Originally posted by playa1258
This will go on for over 100 pages. Probably. It's the neverending Geek debate, Star Wars vs Star Trek will go on forever.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Again, what material is there that is reliable is completely bias, and you know it, hence why you shared it. Don't try to deny it, all you use is move shit, even though we can barely use them as reference since we don't know how phasers will affect SW shields, and how turbolasers will affect ST shields, but with the information provided from far more in-depth material, we can make EDUCATED statements, rather than looking at something and assuming something that is likely inaccurate. I'm still waiting for something as reliable as what I've provided involving the Kelvin ships, not just assumptions based on comparing two unlike things. You can call me bias all you want, but it won't change the fact that I have the superior argument.



Again, if you understood SW, you would understand. I'm nothing like the religious fanatics, I'm merely stating a fact. The actual evidence from the films is far more reliable than some hinky guide making a statement based off a completely separate timeline. What do you mean we don't know how these two would affect each other. It's simple both weapons require a certain force and its up to us to figure out based off their showings the impact of said weapons. We do not need a guide describing Hulk's strength to figure out if he hits Superman it is going to hurt or impact him. The hilarious thing is Lucas made inaccurate scientific statements in Star Wars films before and you're acting like it all totally makes sense. The writers and directors aren't in a room crushing numbers based off a guides information despite your insistence.

You believing you have the superior argument is the bitter irony here. With a straight face you're saying ignore the films and hey look at this tech guide which has nothing to do with the Kelvin timeline because it proves Star Wars wins!!!!

No, you made a blanketed statement without proof and acted like I needed to disprove the force aided the ewoks. That isn't how debating works you made the claim which until you provide proof is baseless.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The actual evidence from the films is far more reliable than some hinky guide making a statement based off a completely separate timeline. What do you mean we don't know how these two would affect each other. It's simple both weapons require a certain force and its up to us to figure out based off their showings the impact of said weapons. We do not need a guide describing Hulk's strength to figure out if he hits Superman it is going to hurt or impact him.

It'a hilarious that you think that. We can't just look at something and assume it will have the same affect on something else. To follow your Hulk v Superman example, just because Superman was able to punch a guy and hurt him, doesn't mean Hulk can replicate that. We need detailed data and similar circumstances to draw evidence in order to make an EDUCATED theory, as opposed to an assumption that since Hulk could hurt someone, that Superman could, too. Since there's no way to know how a phaser would react to a SW shield, and a turbolaser to ST shields, we make assumptions based on data we have that is more reliable. I take the movie showings and apply them to things like this with a grain of salt, given that we don't have any real data other than what we see, and just looking at two things and comparing them isn't always reliable since we don't know if we will get the same results if the situation was changed. Do you get what I'm saying now? We can't assume something just because it looks like things will play out in a certain way, we have to use real data, crunch numbers, and analyze everything to find an answer to this question, and until you provide something like that for the Kelvin timeline, all I have to go on is data from the Prime timeline, and scale up given that you claim (I have yet to find anything that supports this) that the Kelvin weapons are more advanced. So, please provide some data and sources supporting your argument, or don't, and leave your argument baseless



Like what? Care to back this up, or leave it baseless like very thing else?



I never implied they were, I'm simply saying that we won't draw an accurate conclusion from just looking at the movies, we have to go deeper, as I've been saying. If you want to debunk my argument, at least do so with some effort, maybe you'll get somewhere



I have the better argument because I'm backing up my statements and arguments, while all you have is a biased video. The movies do have important information in them for settling this argument, but using them as the only source is what the problem is. We can't get an accurate answer from just the movies, but I agree that using examples from the Prime timeline won't either, hence why I would like to see something that supports the Kelvin timeline other than the movies. Since I have yet to find anything on the Kelvin timeline that we can use for this debate other than the movies, I use the examples provided by the Prime timeline.

If what you say is true about the Kelvin timeline having more advanced technology than the Prime timeline (which, as usual, you have yet to back up), then we scale up from there, and even if we multiply the results of number crunching and valid data, it still doesn't compare to the technology of the Clone Wars, most of which became outdated and nearly useless by ANH.



It's hilarious and ironic that you're getting on me for it when you have yet to provide proof for and back up a single of your arguments as accurate. I concede this point, as I remember reading that the "Will of the Force" was for the Empire to fall, and it got specific in discussing how it affected the Battle of Endor, but I can't find it. So, since I can't back it up, I give you a win where. Not that it affects the debate in any way.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
It'a hilarious that you think that. We can't just look at something and assume it will have the same affect on something else. To follow your Hulk v Superman example, just because Superman was able to punch a guy and hurt him, doesn't mean Hulk can replicate that. We need detailed data and similar circumstances to draw evidence in order to make an EDUCATED theory, as opposed to an assumption that since Hulk could hurt someone, that Superman could, too. Since there's no way to know how a phaser would react to a SW shield, and a turbolaser to ST shields, we make assumptions based on data we have that is more reliable. I take the movie showings and apply them to things like this with a grain of salt, given that we don't have any real data other than what we see, and just looking at two things and comparing them isn't always reliable since we don't know if we will get the same results if the situation was changed. Do you get what I'm saying now? We can't assume something just because it looks like things will play out in a certain way, we have to use real data, crunch numbers, and analyze everything to find an answer to this question, and until you provide something like that for the Kelvin timeline, all I have to go on is data from the Prime timeline, and scale up given that you claim (I have yet to find anything that supports this) that the Kelvin weapons are more advanced. So, please provide some data and sources supporting your argument, or don't, and leave your argument baseless I didn't just say that but since you need me to hold your hand throughout this entire debacle you call an arguments let's proceed. Hulk has the collateral damage feats and comparative feats against similar objects, planets, peers, etc. If hulk destroys a planet we don't assume the planet is weaker than the one Superman pushed. We accept certain unknowns to have a fictional debate because we don't have numbers to quantify every single attack. What's even more telling is we know because we are intelligent, rational human beings that the artists, writers, storytellers in general don't give one single **** about the scene other than making it gloriously captivating. They do not have people crunching the goddamn numbers in their fictional universe because that's boring and unnecessary.

What the **** do you mean we have no way to tell how it would react to SW shields ? It's either powerful enough to break through or it will accrue damage until it is breached. We can make reasonable assumptions based off the showings from each set of films to compare. We know Trek ships minus shields can withstand the impact of high speeds into a mountain. That's one showing illustrating the durability of a Star Trek ship minus a shield. We can then come to the conclusions the shields are greater than that since they protect these ships. We see how easily Trek super shields maul the federations Enterprise with their weapons.


The data doesn't sync up with the films and we as intelligent people should have already reached this conclusion. You want to forego the visual and compelling evidence and instead focus on irrelevant data entires for a series completely outside of the Kelvin timeline and you astonishly think this is the best way.

For all of you bastards TL;DR

Tonde believes technical guides outside for the DS9 are more relevant than the visual evidence from the Kelvin trilogy.

You do not have the showings from the films to make the case the Trek ships can't damage the Star Destroyers since much smaller and much less powerful ships have brought down said star destroyers.


If I back this up will you publically concede to being my inferior.


We go deeper by examining the direct evidence. You'd rather ignore the actual movie showings and facts in favor of guides written by people not responsible for the movie itself.
No, you're ignoring the actual evidence in favor of third party numbers. Anyone who says ignore what we see but let's take a look at this guide is wrong. Yes, we can. We know for a fact that the Kelvin timeline is different than the prime timeline so using anything for that reality is inherently wrong.
So much reaching on your end and you've already laid your biased cards out on the table. Your conclusion won't change and despite the possibility I am right your conclusion didn't change. You're a fanatic and the evidence doesn't matter. Didn't matter. Never mattered.

Well it's ridiculous that a small quote in some jackass book to you would definitively say the force allowed the ewoks to win the battle. Essentially you'd undermine all Star Wars battles both won and lost down to whoever the force wills will win making their actions moot.

I'll respond tomorrow afternoon.

As soon as Ellimist can agree to a set date the Ot era will be decimated by the Kelvin era. Those who doubt the sincerity of my words will indeed see the errors of their ways hopefully soon.

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/60qFAF3evUd_2WyNLvHLsg--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9NjExO2g9MjY1/http://67.media.tumblr.com/63d1f21eacb9430ed0ba3f44bcc25ad4/tumblr_inline_o7p7ywfLtj1sypkn8_540.gif

This brawl takes place in the Kelvin era. Haven't been to this forum in a few days.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
This brawl takes place in the Kelvin era. Haven't been to this forum in a few days. I am referring to my Kelvin vs Original Trilogy era. Khan and the Kelvin are superior to Vader and his weak imperial forces.

Nai seems to have retreated from his defense of the Ot era against the superior Kelvin timeline.

Tondemonai, Nai, etc. have all fled.

I've been swamped at school, and have had no time to write a good response. I could respond if you like, but I barely have enough time to write paragraph responses most of the time.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I've been swamped at school, and have had no time to write a good response. I could respond if you like, but I barely have enough time to write paragraph responses most of the time. Just when you get the time.

I don't expect to have much homework this weekend, I will give you my attention then.

Anything to add, Nai ? If not this cements your status as a despicable coward.

..........

Well ?

Tonde ??

The United Federation of Planets . . . effortlessly. Since PIS and CIS is presumably off, they're spam their warp technology to the limit and warp torpedoes into the hulls of every First Order flagship in the galaxy.

Tonde has conceded.

I ended up being rather flooded with shit. I'm going to be typing it up whenever I get solid chances (like right now). When it's done, I'll post it. Until then, you'll have to be patient. I happen to have a life that takes priority over debates on this shitcake

Remember this is the Kelvin timeline vs Ot mini debate. I'll have to take what I can get until Ellimist commits to a date. Make sacrifices and get this shit done. I can't be expected to wait forever.

Ahem

Tonde has thrown in the towel.

Weak.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We accept certain unknowns to have a fictional debate because we don't have numbers to quantify every single attack.

Glad we agree. The thing is, we have numbers to quantify most things in SW, and when applying them to the First Order, we scale up. With ST, we dor have them for Kelvin timeline, but we do for Prime timeline. Since we know they both use phasers, we can assume that their damage output is similar, but if it's true that the Kelvin ships are more advanced (which I don't buy), then we scale up. I understand that the technology is not identical, but it's still similar, and we can draw reasonable conclusions from it.



Thanks for repeating what I've been saying throughout this debate



What I'm saying is, for all we know phasers are able to pass through SW shields without being effected. I say this because we don't know how the energy and matter that composes a phaser will react to the energy and matter that makes up a SW shield. We assume that they will react to eachother the same way they work in their respective universe's for the sake of argument.



For situations like this, I agree. When I say the movies are unreliable, I should specify that it more relates to something where the screenwriters could have taken extensive creative liberties. An example of creative liberties taken in Into Darkness: "In Cinefex 134, visual effects supervisor Roger Guyett remarked that "The Vengeance is about two-and-a-half times the size of the Enterprise." He added: "It was approximately 4,500 feet long, but we sometimes cheated that for dramatic needs, as we did with the Enterprise." This converts to 1,400 meters. According to QMx, their 36-inch replica was developed at a scale of 1:1600, which works out to roughly 4,800 feet (1,500 meters). Finally, digital set designer Tex Kadonaga had created a size chart for the film, showing the vessel at 4,790 feet (1,460 meters) and the Enterprise at half that length."

My point here is we can't always trust what we see on screen because it isn't always accurate. This is why we need concrete data uninfluenced by visual creative liberties.



Arguably. We don't have any data to support this. Since we know kinetic objects can pass through shields, and we can't quantify all the variables without spending extensive time calculating the variables, we can't exactly use this as a reliable point to draw conclusions from.



I don't understand what you're saying here.



Granted, they are not identical. However, they are still phasers and photon torpedoes, any we, as intelligent people, can assume that they are still similar in constitution. However, our data is limited, so this is not the most effective way of going about this. The alternate ways, however, are either ineffective in answering our questions accurately or are overly time consuming.



I forego the visuals because they are intended to look good, and as such are less reliable because of the creative liberties taken.

For all of you bastards TL;DR



When visuals are exaggerated and unreliable and we have no written data to go off of, we must turn to things from the Prime timeline, which is still ST.



If you want a debate based off the movie showings, you're in the wrong thread.

You realize that Slave I has more destructive output than Enterprise D, right? And the feat that I assume you're referring to is the Executor being taken down, right? If so, you should already know that we've explained this to you.



Then by all means, please do.



And when the movie showings are not reliable, we use other sources. It's laughable to think that Lucasfilm and whoever owns ST now didn't regulate what could be put on the sourcebooks.



Funny



They both use the same technology, it is simply animated differently.



My conclusion remains the same because you have yet to provide compelling evidence to persuade me otherwise.

WTF does the UFP do against Starkiller Base?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Tonde has thrown in the towel.

You really gotta stop with this, because then it just makes you look silly when the poster responds.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
You really gotta stop with this, because then it just makes you look silly when the poster responds. I do this to get him to respond quicker. It worked.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Glad we agree. The thing is, we have numbers to quantify most things in SW, and when applying them to the First Order, we scale up. With ST, we dor have them for Kelvin timeline, but we do for Prime timeline. Since we know they both use phasers, we can assume that their damage output is similar, but if it's true that the Kelvin ships are more advanced (which I don't buy), then we scale up. I understand that the technology is not identical, but it's still similar, and we can draw reasonable conclusions from it.

Kelvin ships are more durable and larger so it is true. The narada made the entire timeline superior. Love that Nero.
I agree.


I agree.

Depends on if the showings sync up to match the data. Take for instance in the new film we see the x wing firing on Stormtroopers and it wasn't that powerful considering the damage done to the trooper. If you find some kind of ridiculously powerful mathematical number to address the power of their guns it doesn't add up.

In these instances we'd see who best supported their views since we can't come to an agreement like in any debate,



Typo. Super ships maul the enterprise with their weapons despite the enterprise's shields up.



This is a nerd debate so one shouldn't stress about it. It's just supposed to be fun. I have always been in favor of arguing based off consistently portrayals over stressing mathematical numbers mentioned in a guide somewhere the director obviously didn't know or factor in realistically.


We can't just outright ignore the visual aspect IMO. It doesn't have to be the entire picture but it should still factor into the equation.

Why ? We have enough information from the Kelvin timeline to reach a conclusion.

No, I am not.

I find that highly suspect but I don't care about the enterprise D one bit. What about it being taken down has been explained to me ?


What am I supposed to back up again exactly ?

As long as it jives with the films I don't see a problem. Only if that happens though.

Proof ? We see the ships are bigger and more durable so what makes you say the tech is same across the board since it's an alternate reality.


You're talking about the Ot vs the Kelvin timeline, right ?

Tell you what why don't you accept this battlezone. It's a one on one judged debate with me repping the Kelvin vs the Ot era with judges. Let's see who makes the more compelling case. We can set the date for when you have time over winter break since you're bogged down by college.

Sound good ?

I also keep throwing up challengers because Ellimist doesn't really seem to care about repping the Ot era. I need someone to fully believe in their position and that their side wins. Ellimist was I wrong to think you don't care about this debate ? Do you look forward to this in December ? Or would you rather me try to find someone else in the meantime.

I'll do the debate, sure.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'll do the debate, sure. Can you give me a week or two in December you're targeting ?

Ellimist ??

???

Set a date.

Just PM him?

i don't know

This doesn't have to be this hard. December though, right ?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
WTF does the UFP do against Starkiller Base?


Nothing.

Which is why he specifically wants it to be the OT Only to give Star Trek a chance.

Besides his Hate is specifically for the OT as that's the Trilogy that made the whole franchise infinitely bigger and superior to Star Trek. He's prentending to jump Wagon on the Nu Star Wars because it's making more money than Marvel and Harry Potter.

But He's too dumb to realise the NU Wars is all based on Nostalgia and worship of the OT.

Kylo Ren literally worships Vader

Oh and his latest NUTrek instalment has flopped In fact None of them have made as much as even the least successful of the Prequels from 14years ago

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nothing.

Which is why he specifically wants it to be the OT Only to give Star Trek a chance.

Besides his Hate is specifically for the OT as that's the Trilogy that made the whole franchise infinitely bigger and superior to Star Trek. He's prentending to jump Wagon on the Nu Star Wars because it's making more money than Marvel and Harry Potter.

But He's too dumb to realise the NU Wars is all based on Nostalgia and worship of the OT.

Kylo Ren literally worships Vader

Oh and his latest NUTrek instalment has flopped In fact None of them have made as much as even the least successful of the Prequels from 14years ago You need some therapy after the number I have done on you.

Well let's discuss the reasons it is the Ot and not the First Order. Firstly I want two trilogies so an equal amount of films against one another. We have two more films to come in this trilogy so why do a battlezone with just 1/3 of it complete. Thirdly, most on here believe the Ot is superior to the First Order so again my opinion is my own and I truly believe the Kelvin timeline spanks the Ot timeline. I won't know about the First Order until the evidence is all there. Unlike you I a not biased.

I do not care about what makes more money. If that were true why would I love the Star Trek franchise ? I can't stand the transformers love action franchise thus far because it's boring and repetitive.

I do realize in fact I said that was a reason I liked it more. I didn't care for the old Trek. Hence the reason I love the new films. Abrams gave it that Star Wars touch. I unlike you understand the differences and it makes sense for me to gravitate towards the Nu Trek since I found the old Trek boring and uneventful.

Kylo Ren is obsessive which I love and overcome what destroyed Vader. He has eclipsed him. It's like any athlete growing up with a role model. Take Tom Brady for instance idolizing Montana but now they sit at the same table. Kylo will grow, progress, and his ceiling hasn't been reached. His obsessive behavior will always have a monkey on his back providing inner motivation to never satiate his hunger.


I know the Nu Treks have never made as much so you just negates your own point since I still vehemently support the first two films. They are magic. Thanks for conceding the point.

Ps. I am usually the first to support anything with the passion and unbridled enthusiasm I bring to the table. No one on here save me loved Snoke. I have from the get go made my position clear in my love of the First Order and this new trilogy villains.

^^Guarantee D. Troll won't address any of my points confirming he's a troll.

#quanisrightonceagain

Originally posted by quanchi112
^^Guarantee D. Troll won't address any of my points confirming he's a troll.

#quanisrightonceagain Called it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You need some therapy after the number I have done on you.

Well let's discuss the reasons it is the Ot and not the First Order. Firstly I want two trilogies so an equal amount of films against one another. We have two more films to come in this trilogy so why do a battlezone with just 1/3 of it complete. Thirdly, most on here believe the Ot is superior to the First Order so again my opinion is my own and I truly believe the Kelvin timeline spanks the Ot timeline. I won't know about the First Order until the evidence is all there. Unlike you I a not biased.

I do not care about what makes more money. If that were true why would I love the Star Trek franchise ? I can't stand the transformers love action franchise thus far because it's boring and repetitive.

I do realize in fact I said that was a reason I liked it more. I didn't care for the old Trek. Hence the reason I love the new films. Abrams gave it that Star Wars touch. I unlike you understand the differences and it makes sense for me to gravitate towards the Nu Trek since I found the old Trek boring and uneventful.

Kylo Ren is obsessive which I love and overcome what destroyed Vader. He has eclipsed him. It's like any athlete growing up with a role model. Take Tom Brady for instance idolizing Montana but now they sit at the same table. Kylo will grow, progress, and his ceiling hasn't been reached. His obsessive behavior will always have a monkey on his back providing inner motivation to never satiate his hunger.


I know the Nu Treks have never made as much so you just negates your own point since I still vehemently support the first two films. They are magic. Thanks for conceding the point.

Ps. I am usually the first to support anything with the passion and unbridled enthusiasm I bring to the table. No one on here save me loved Snoke. I have from the get go made my position clear in my love of the First Order and this new trilogy villains.



WTF does the UFP do against the Death Star?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
WTF does the UFP do against the Death Star? You will find out in the battlezone. Tell me the month so I can hold you to this. I say we set it after the premiere weekend of Rogue One. The following week before the holidays.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You will find out in the battlezone. Tell me the month so I can hold you to this. I say we set it after the premiere weekend of Rogue One. The following week before the holidays.

Sure.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sure. I do not want you to fizzle or not care about this matchup. I hope you fully believe in the superiority of the Empire against my Kelvin era. I can't have anyone just going through the motions.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do not want you to fizzle or not care about this matchup. I hope you fully believe in the superiority of the Empire against my Kelvin era. I can't have anyone just going through the motions.

Seeing as how that debate is what got me into these discussions in the first place, I'm obviously sincere. But I do expect you to either respond to my technical analysis, or have a damn well articulated meta-argument for why they don't matter, instead of your typical response which is to say "I don't like numbers...I'm not that good with them...I'll just use my gut..."

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Seeing as how that debate is what got me into these discussions in the first place, I'm obviously sincere. But I do expect you to either respond to my technical analysis, or have a damn well articulated meta-argument for why they don't matter, instead of your typical response which is to say "I don't like numbers...I'm not that good with them...I'll just use my gut..." I will. I have always believed the numbers never matched up with the showings. It's similar to how most view the marvel handbooks. They don't align or make sense at all when you read the comics. To me it's technobabble but I won't just ignore it. I will give a detailed response as to why such and such doesn't make sense based off showing A, B, C.....dependent on relevancy and what's available to illustrate my point.

I just hope your argument isn't 95 percent technical analysis. I hope it encompasses your strategy with your Star Wars universe and how they are best utlized against the Kelvin universe.

Tonde, you blew the opportunity for the greatest Sci Fi debate out there. You had a chance at infamy but you threw it away.

If I end up getting a chance to do a battlezone, I will let you know. At the moment, I have no reason to believe that the opportunity will present itself this year, but I'm hopeful, it would be fun.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
If I end up getting a chance to do a battlezone, I will let you know. At the moment, I have no reason to believe that the opportunity will present itself this year, but I'm hopeful, it would be fun. Ellimist already accepted and set a date after Rogue One. If you behave and continue to impress me with the courage to face me I'll figure out a battlezone with the newer Rogue One film next summer.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ellimist already accepted and set a date after Rogue One. If you behave and continue to impress me with the courage to face me I'll figure out a battlezone with the newer Rogue One film next summer.

Next summer sounds good. Depending on the release date of Episode VIII we could do one after its release

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Next summer sounds good. Depending on the release date of Episode VIII we could do one after its release Some day as long as he gets combat showings to support my Star Wars intuition I'd love to do a Snoke vs Palpatine battlezone. We can revisit the idea of a battlezone this summer after we dissect Rogue One.

Sounds good

Well remember this so I don't want to hear any of this you don't have time over the summer nonsense. D. Thor once accepted a battlezone repping Vader only to back down the day of. I've never seen such cowardice when he pretended he through the Vader won for months. The day of he realized he was screwed and backed down in shame.

The first order

Hmmmmmmmm.