Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Darth Maul

DarthDuelist9

Allright let's try this again, I'll start from their fights in the Clone Wars and work my way up from there. First there is the fight on the Turtle Tanker in the finale of Season 4, in the beginning we see Obi-Wan actually has the advantage, he's anticipating Maul's movements and controlling the fight until the point that he retrieves his lightsaber. From then on they trade blows for a second and Maul kicks Obi-Wan, who then seeks out higher ground, so far so good right? What's actually important from this scene is that while Obi-Wan had the earlier advantage (e.g. kicking Maul against the boxes around them), Maul always came back without any lasting injuries, contrary to Obi-Wan who found it necessary to seek out higher ground after Maul took the edge in the fight again. If anyone's going to come out on top, it was Maul. Sure you can put this on Obi-Wan's apparent injuries in the beginning of the fight (Maul & Savage beating him up) but while there is no evidence or indication for the extent of his injuries, and even if they actually hindered him, we do have the episode guide saying this:

"Maul has been looking forward to killing Kenobi for years, and so he intends to relish his vengeance. but his exquisite moment is cut short by the cackles of Asajj Ventress, who lurks in the shadows of the hold."

"Kenobi and Ventress are overwhelmed by the raw power of Maul and Opress."

The first quote actually indicates that Kenobi did not nearly receive the beating (and suffering) Maul intended and so limiting the extent of his injuries while the second quote straight out confirms Maul's superiority to Obi-Wan.

Secondly Maul and Obi-Wan fought on Florrum in the Season 5 premiere. This fight proceeds with both Brother engaging Obi-Wan & Adi on the rocks above Hondo's base. Maul & Obi-Wan start out by clashing blades a couple times, Obi-Wan slowly giving ground, and then both Jedi decide to run away. Obi-Wan then proceeds to give ground and even seeks out higher ground again, where they continue their duel. Shortly after that the fight is interrupted by Adi's death and Obi-Wan retreats in Hondo's base. What's important from this fight is that Obi-Wan is immediately giving ground and retreating, things most people attribute to Obi-Wan's defensive approach (which in general brings forward the problem that there is no way to seperate Obi-Wan being pushed back and him using Soresu). However, lucky for me, Obi-Wan's fighting style in TCW is quite different then the one he utilizes in Revenge of the Sith. In all his fights, from Grievous to Vizla, he took on a normal approach, not nearly a defensive one, and in general going toe-to-toe with his opponents while in this case he's retreating (and giving ground) almost directly when the fight starts. So I think that the picture is pretty clear right? A fighter who normally goes toe-to-toe with his opponents (or even can be aggresive if necessary -> Grievous on Saleucami) is being pushed back to the point he has to retreat. Maul is the clear victor in this example with as addition the fact that there are no vague circumstances which people can rely on to explain his defeat.

To summarize everything, in both fights in TCW Maul's shown he's superior to Obi-Wan as a duelist and overall combatant. Of course this is RotS Obi-Wan we're using and not his TCW incarnation, however besides that he adapts a more defensive approach in RotS, ther is nothing to suggest that he grew noticeably. Even if we're assuming Obi-Wan did grow in the end of the CW, the idea that he grew more then Maul, who like Obi-Wan has been active during the entire end of TCW and possesses more talent, potential and power then him, is very unlikely. Maul's shown to be his superior in every area over and over again.

Oh yeah, before anyone responds to any of my arguments, begin with explaining why you actually think Obi-Wan is better.

Ziggystardust

Maul dies

Darth Thor

Wow so Maul's not even on par with Kenobi now?

You're all turning into true Filoni followers.

Ziggystardust

Kenobi's a better duelist - especially as of ROTS
He's caught up on Force power - Stalemating a hindered Anakin
He sent Maul and his brother running in TCW even when his back was against the wall.

Maul had no reason to retreat on florrum. He din't know that his own hive of scum and villainy would turn on him. He retreated because he knew that without significant backup, he couldn't win.

MythLord

I doubt Kenobi would get kicked by, and be at the mercy of, Ezra.

He wins.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by MythLord
I doubt Kenobi would get kicked by, and be at the mercy of, Ezra.

He wins.

Really? I mean, it's not as if Maul is trying to seduce Ezra to the Dark Side.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Kenobi's a better duelist - especially as of ROTS
He's caught up on Force power - Stalemating a hindered Anakin
He sent Maul and his brother running in TCW even when his back was against the wall.

Maul had no reason to retreat on florrum. He din't know that his own hive of scum and villainy would turn on him. He retreated because he knew that without significant backup, he couldn't win.

Obi-Wan goes from being outmatched to being superior in a span of months? Not to mention that Maul would logically grow as well in the end of TCW and possibly more since he's more powerul and has actually accolades to back up his power growth contrary to Obi-Wan.

Statlemating a hindered Anakin is not something what is going to put him above Maul, especially since Maul has ragdolled Obi-Wan numerous times in TCW and should have grown in power as well near RotS.

Shadow Conspiracy notes that Obi-Wan managed to hold is own on Florrum because of multiple reasons (the brothers hindering each other, Obi-Wan's sudden aggresiveness, ...) and Savage lost his arm, which is why Maul retreated. Obi-Wan actually had no reason to run away on Florrum when Adi was still alive, despite well being outmatched of course.

DarthDuelist9

Obi-Wan is litteraly the only character in the entire mythos that can get choked out (twice), blasted and gripped while still apparently being comparably powerful. Really, the subjectivity on this forum has reached a new level.

MythLord

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Really? I mean, it's not as if Maul is trying to seduce Ezra to the Dark Side.

By getting floored by him and his blind master?

Face it, at this rate, Maul's low showings are becoming more consistent than his high showings... He is no longer the badass he once was.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by MythLord
By getting floored by him and his blind master?

Face it, at this rate, Maul's low showings are becoming more consistent than his high showings... He is no longer the badass he once was.

Yeah, by letting Ezra give into his anger.

The thing is, his 'low showings' can be explained, both in Kanan's and Ezra's case, so they aren't low showings. I really expected more from you Wollf.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Wow so Maul's not even on par with Kenobi now?

You're all turning into true Filoni followers.

None of them have produced evidence in Kenobi's favor so I wouldn't exactly take their opinions serious.

MythLord

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Yeah, by letting Ezra give into his anger.

The thing is, his 'low showings' can be explained, both in Kanan's and Ezra's case, so they aren't low showings. I really expected more from you Wollf.

And then letting Ezra floor him? I'm sure Sidious, Vader or Dooku let their apprentices floor them in a fit of rage just cuz... Oh no wait; Vader couldn't touch Sidious, Dooku one-shotted Asajj, and Vader brutalized Marek in early spars...

An explanation for why Maul is scared sh!tless to engage Kanan in combat, please.

But, if you want, I'll gladly look at Maul's high showings and still argue his inferiority to prime Obi-Wan.

Jmanghan

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Wasn't Dooku and Asajj's first duel at least a minute?
You mean the 3 vs 1 against an drugged Dooku, when Dooku ragdolled him, or...?

Jmanghan

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You mean the 3 vs 1 against an drugged Dooku, when Dooku ragdolled him, or...? No.

The one in the OCW.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Jmanghan
No.

The one in the OCW.
Dooku didn't seem really serious in that.

Jmanghan

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Dooku didn't seem really serious in that. He wasn't, but it seemed he was trying to test her, and she passed.

He was also I guess trying to teach her a lesson, because she claimed she was a Sith.

Ursumeles

Originally posted by Jmanghan
He wasn't, but it seemed he was trying to test her, and she passed.

He was also I guess trying to teach her a lesson, because she claimed she was a Sith.
And that is your evidence, that Dooku can't ragdoll her erm

cs_zoltan

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Well since you have produced nothing against anything I put forward, it actually is. You can insult me (or my argumentation) whenever you want but as long as you have nothing to back that up, you're just an angry kid kicking around without cuasing any damage.

Actually I have, not my fault that you can't comprehend simple concepts despite repeated attemps of explanations. Which gets tedious after a while.

carthage

Maul dies

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by MythLord
And then letting Ezra floor him? I'm sure Sidious, Vader or Dooku let their apprentices floor them in a fit of rage just cuz... Oh no wait; Vader couldn't touch Sidious, Dooku one-shotted Asajj, and Vader brutalized Marek in early spars...

An explanation for why Maul is scared sh!tless to engage Kanan in combat, please.

But, if you want, I'll gladly look at Maul's high showings and still argue his inferiority to prime Obi-Wan.

The things is, Ezra isn't Maul's apprentice yet, he's still a Light Side user so he still has to fall to the Dark Side. Not to mention that Maul can ragdoll the 7th Sister, who herself is still more powerful then Ezra.

Maul is scared to engage Kanan? Oh please Wollf...

You may very well try that, I wish you good luck since Maul's come out on top before (TCW) so you'll need it.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Actually I have, not my fault that you can't comprehend simple concepts despite repeated attemps of explanations. Which gets tedious after a while.

You mean when you were claiming that Obi-Wan taking two steps back = using Soresu? Yeah, really I'm willing to debate when you actually use evidence but until then I actually got better things to do.

SunRazer

Well, the Obi-Wan supporters have a point. TCW does have a liking for letting Obi-Wan get choked by circumstance. But you'd have to admit, Obi-Wan gets choked by circumstance a lot. What, five or six times in TCW, plus once in RotS by Dooku? That sounds a little... unreasonable.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, the Obi-Wan supporters have a point. TCW does have a liking for letting Obi-Wan get choked by circumstance. But you'd have to admit, Obi-Wan gets choked by circumstance a lot. What, five or six times in TCW, plus once in RotS by Dooku? That sounds a little... unreasonable.

What's your opinion on this fight?

SunRazer

A near-enough stalemate in sabers. Taking into account that this Obi-Wan > S5 TCW Obi-Wan and assuming that Maul and Obi-Wan were dead-even in TCW (which they might not be, since Soresu can minimize any existing disparity), then Obi-Wan might take the slightest of leads.

Maul takes Force and all-out, though.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by SunRazer
A near-enough stalemate in sabers. Taking into account that this Obi-Wan > S5 TCW Obi-Wan and assuming that Maul and Obi-Wan were dead-even in TCW (which they might not be, since Soresu can minimize any existing disparity), then Obi-Wan might take the slightest of leads.

Maul takes Force and all-out, though.

But if Obi-Wan > S5 Obi-Wan (is there any evidence for this?) how is that enough for him to transcend Maul? And I don't quite understand were this "dead-even in sabers" comes from, Obi-Wan was pushed back in both fights and in both cases opted to retreat, that hardly seems like he's dead-even.

SunRazer

Pretty sure you could apply one of those "improved over the war" quotes to this.

Obi-Wan moving back is part of how he fights. Although granted, TCW's approach to characters and their lightsaber forms is incredibly half-baked, so... eh.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by SunRazer
Pretty sure you could apply one of those "improved over the war" quotes to this.

Obi-Wan moving back is part of how he fights. Although granted, TCW's approach to characters and their lightsaber forms is incredibly half-baked, so... eh.

Yeah, 'over the war' is taking into account the entire Clone Wars, we're talking about the very last part of it (e.g. If his growth is noticeable over the CW then his growth in the last part is only going to be a small part of 'noticeable' if you know what I mean). I doubt that this 'improvement' is enough to suddenly be better then Maul.

First, how do you make the difference then between Obi-Wan applying Soresu and him effectively being pushed back? Secondly, like you said, TCW depicts Obi-Wan's fighting style differently then the movies, so why would Obi-Wan go toe-to-toe with Grievous (not showing any kind of defensive approach) and yet do this against Maul?

cs_zoltan

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
You mean when you were claiming that Obi-Wan taking two steps back = using Soresu? Yeah, really I'm willing to debate when you actually use evidence but until then I actually got better things to do.

It was your idea that Kenobi never, ever gives ground. When someone indulges a retard he has to get his hands dirty.

Oh, btw:

In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way.
--Revenge of the Sith

SunRazer

That's still enough for an improvement, however slight.

Because even your beloved Shadow Conspiracy makes note that Obi-Wan's sudden transition to an offensive Ataru surprised Maul/Savage, which indicates that they were used to him fighting defensively. Which is, of course, what he's always done against Maul, except when he was goaded aboard the Turtle Tanker and that "focus" incident on Florrum.

cs_zoltan

TCW left out the most intense, most brutal part of the war, the Outer Rim Sieges. Kenobi and Anakin was so busy fighting they couldn't even go back to Coruscant for several months. In this time period Anakin grew vastly in power. Obviously Kenobi doesn't have Anakin's potential, but they were doing the same thing this time so a proportional power growth is all but guaranteed.

If you want actual examples of his growth, he went from Grievous relative equal during TCW to stomping him in RotS, he went from circumstantially being ragdolled by Maul to likely being able to break out of Dooku's choke.

MythLord

And he went from getting humiliated by the Count in lightsaber combat, to giving him at least a somewhat decent challenge.

Obi's limit is Dooku+ characters, not Maul-tier characters.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's still enough for an improvement, however slight.

Because even your beloved Shadow Conspiracy makes note that Obi-Wan's sudden transition to an offensive Ataru surprised Maul/Savage, which indicates that they were used to him fighting defensively. Which is, of course, what he's always done against Maul, except when he was goaded aboard the Turtle Tanker and that "focus" incident on Florrum.

A slight improvement, sure.

Being not offensive in normal scenarios doesn't mean you're a defensive fighter either and I never claimed that Obi-Wan is an aggresive fighter to begin with, only that he isn't a defensive one (and apparently not an offensive one either) in TCW. My point still kind of stands, there is no reason for Obi-Wan to adopt a different fighting style against Maul (contrary to the rest of his TCW duels) besides that he was forced to do it, which would imply Maul is better (much how Ahsoka was put on a defensive in Rebels against Vader).

Oh yeah, I think that you forgot to answer my first question, how do you seperate Obi-Wan applying Soresu and him being pushed back (effectively being on the losing side)?

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
TCW left out the most intense, most brutal part of the war, the Outer Rim Sieges. Kenobi and Anakin was so busy fighting they couldn't even go back to Coruscant for several months. In this time period Anakin grew vastly in power. Obviously Kenobi doesn't have Anakin's potential, but they were doing the same thing this time so a proportional power growth is all but guaranteed.

If you want actual examples of his growth, he went from Grievous relative equal during TCW to stomping him in RotS, he went from circumstantially being ragdolled by Maul to likely being able to break out of Dooku's choke.

The Outer Rim Sieges aren't canon, so there goes your point.

Obi-Wan never stomped Grievous in RotS, yes he cut off two of his hands but still had to resort to the Force to make him retreat. The (canon) Kanan comic has actually proved the exact opposite, Depa also (much like Obi-Wan) cut off two of Grievous hands but was still defeated afterwards.

RotS JR novel never said Obi-Wan could break out of Dooku's grip.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by MythLord
And he went from getting humiliated by the Count in lightsaber combat, to giving him at least a somewhat decent challenge.

Obi's limit is Dooku+ characters, not Maul-tier characters.

Yeah over the ENTIRE course of TCW, that doens't only apply to the last months of it. If you're talking about the S6 encounter, Dooku never humiliated Obi-Wan, nor do we know how a fight between them would have been in RotS since Anakin was involved.

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Obi-Wan goes from being outmatched to being superior in a span of months?

The first part of this statement is ignorant of Kenobi and Maul's antagonism, the second is ignorant of learning curves and accelerations of growth. Just look at the very contrasting environments they were bread in. Maul was trained to the apex of his career with many observers stating he couldn't exceed beyond that point - comments from both Qui Gon and his master Darth Sidious. He had already had his fair share of victories and training that threatened his life. Kenobi on the other hand, was born of the garden variety diplomacy learned in the Jedi order and only really improves his skills during the War. Months, sometimes weeks can see drastic improvements in fighting. Just look at Savage Opress, Quinlan Vos or Darth Vader for example. The point is that when new information, new fights, new skills become part of the lore, the old material is anachronous. No longer relevant to how characters are judged. You won't tell me that Quinlan Vos gets owned by Cad Bane after his performance in Dark Disciple?

It is? Or is this kind of logic is what's been plaguing the high expectations for Maul in Rebels? The assumption that Maul is competent enough to achieve mastery of the Force on his own accord, without an instructor. Really, the difference between himself in TPM and later incarnations is that he's become older, but perhaps not wiser. He's no longer accepted by the most powerful Sith Lord and the benefits that come with studying under him.

There is little to nothing that suggesting Maul is more powerful than Obi Wan, and the discrepancy in their feats favours the latter, not the former.

Given the amount of hype thrown in Anakin's relative direction, I'd say it does. When you start taking a critical comparison of feats, then you definitely someone that outclasses Maul, perhaps multiple times over.

I'd like to see your definition of 'ragdoll'. Because if Maul could incapacitate Kenobi in the same fashion that Dooku had, he wouldn't be pining for the nearest cybernetic surgeon with his dismembered brother and could spare the extra two seconds it takes to finish the job. So far, Maul's account of rag dolling is this:

- Choking him one occasion while amped by rage
- Force gripping Kenobi when he barely had the energy to stand, much less project a defensive barrier
- Catching Kenobi in a Force grip while the latter was distracted by his brother, but not being able to maintain that grip for more than two seconds

Where does it state they were hindering each other? That's laughable, Kenobi alone is more than a match for Maul, given that he can literally disarm his Brother, while having to defend himself against Maul at the same time. That you have to excuse that by stating the two brothers couldn't handle Kenobi's sudden aggressiveness is equally laughable. One can just say that Kenobi was deviating from his favourite fighting form and still beat the Brothers.

Proof? Lightsaber wounds cauterize themselves, So Savage isn't going to die from bloodloss. Realistically he could remain wounded indefinitely while Maul continues to fight Kenobi. So there must be another reason why he retreated, perhaps because he knew he couldn't win?

SunRazer

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
A slight improvement, sure.

Being not offensive in normal scenarios doesn't mean you're a defensive fighter either and I never claimed that Obi-Wan is an aggresive fighter to begin with, only that he isn't a defensive one (and apparently not an offensive one either) in TCW. My point still kind of stands, there is no reason for Obi-Wan to adopt a different fighting style against Maul (contrary to the rest of his TCW duels) besides that he was forced to do it, which would imply Maul is better (much how Ahsoka was put on a defensive in Rebels against Vader).

Oh yeah, I think that you forgot to answer my first question, how do you seperate Obi-Wan applying Soresu and him being pushed back (effectively being on the losing side)?

As I said, your interpretations of TCW animations doesn't hold in Legends. Shadow Conspiracy sticks to the norm of Obi-Wan being a defensive fighter, hence why his switch to an aggressive style was one of the factors that caught the brothers off guard.

Where do I draw the line towards Soresu and losing? Well, that depends. Given Obi-Wan's mastery of lightsaber combat is right up there with the best, it's safe to say that if he's losing, it's more to do with people penetrating his defenses than him being driven back.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The first part of this statement is ignorant of Kenobi and Maul's antagonism, the second is ignorant of learning curves and accelerations of growth. Just look at the very contrasting environments they were bread in. Maul was trained to the apex of his career with many observers stating he couldn't exceed beyond that point - comments from both Qui Gon and his master Darth Sidious. He had already had his fair share of victories and training that threatened his life. Kenobi on the other hand, was born of the garden variety diplomacy learned in the Jedi order and only really improves his skills during the War. Months, sometimes weeks can see drastic improvements in fighting. Just look at Savage Opress, Quinlan Vos or Darth Vader for example. The point is that when new information, new fights, new skills become part of the lore, the old material is anachronous. No longer relevant to how characters are judged. You won't tell me that Quinlan Vos gets owned by Cad Bane after his performance in Dark Disciple?

You are basing yourself on Qui-Gon's comment, someone who has barely any knowledge on Maul? Your point is actually contradicted by Shadow Conspiracy which litteraly claims that Maul's become more powerful over the course of TCW. I do like how you perphrase it though, enjoyable to read.

Again, Shadow Conspiracy supports the evidence that he's become more powerful by everything he did in TCW, without a master. Obi-Wan's growth between S5 and RotS would come from him fighting in the war but Maul himself also fought in this war to the very end (The Siege of Mandalore is at the same time as RotS).

He's dominated him in the Force multiple times but I will answer that in one of my following responses.

Sure, Anakin is better as Maul but the former was also in a hindered state when fighting (and statlemating) Obi-Wan.

- When was he amplified by rage? Not to mention that he's a Sith (and Dark Side user) who obviously draws power from his darker emotions like rage. There is nothing circumstantial about him choking out Obi-Wan in the comic.
- He actually choked him but I don't use that as a base of my argumentation.
- He wasn't destracted by Savage, he just kicked him and turned to face Maul. Maul then gripped him and threw him against the wall, doesn't mean that he couldn't keep it up for much longer.

I don't make this up, the novel lists it as arguments why Obi-Wan is holding his own against the brothers. IIRC it even says that Obi-Wan would be outmached on open field.

Because Savage was obviously in pain? He collapses to the ground and later on in the ship almost faints. Maul blasted Obi-Wan across the cave, he could definitely win.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by SunRazer
As I said, your interpretations of TCW animations doesn't hold in Legends. Shadow Conspiracy sticks to the norm of Obi-Wan being a defensive fighter, hence why his switch to an aggressive style was one of the factors that caught the brothers off guard.

Where do I draw the line towards Soresu and losing? Well, that depends. Given Obi-Wan's mastery of lightsaber combat is right up there with the best, it's safe to say that if he's losing, it's more to do with people penetrating his defenses than him being driven back.

It doens't matter that it isn't true in Legends, we're using Canon. Shadow Conspiracy never lists Obi-Wan as a defensive fighter though, just not an offensive one.

So if you aren't penetrating Obi-Wan's defenses immediately then your dead-even? It's kind of an easy excuse to just say Obi-Wan is fighting defensively when he could very well be losing. In the end, TCW has never depicted Obi-Wan as defensive, so why he suddenly is exactly that against Maul can only mean one thing, he's losing.

SunRazer

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
It doens't matter that it isn't true in Legends, we're using Canon. Shadow Conspiracy never lists Obi-Wan as a defensive fighter though, just not an offensive one.

So if you aren't penetrating Obi-Wan's defenses immediately then your dead-even? It's kind of an easy excuse to just say Obi-Wan is fighting defensively when he could very well be losing. In the end, TCW has never depicted Obi-Wan as defensive, so why he suddenly is exactly that against Maul can only mean one thing, he's losing.

We're not using Canon. We're using composite. And this is the only explicit definition on it.

I didn't say anything about immediately penetrating his defenses. Maul had ample time. As I said, your interpretation of TCW's animations doesn't surpass the novel's writing. Obi-Wan was a defensive fighter, and using aggressive attacks wasn't his MO in fights against Maul, hence why the latter was surprised when he did.

Just accept it and move on.

DarthDuelist9

The Quote button doesn't work properly so I respond like this.

- That means it can't be used to attribute Obi-Wan's supposed growth between S6 and RotS.

- Again, Depa performed likewise against Grievous but got defeated afterwards. In the movie, Grievous continues to attack Obi-Wan, even after losing two hands so apparently he's still optimistic about it.

- No, it only says that Obi-Wan wasn't fast enough to gather any kind of counter attack, if Obi-Wan could effectively counter Dooku's attack is left in the open. Of course he's going to gather a counter-attack, most Force users do, but that doesn't mean that Dooku couldn't penetrate his defenses either way.

SunRazer

Dooku did penetrate his defenses, it's just a question of whether he simply tore through them or if he exploited a momentary lapse in Obi-Wan's Force defenses, which, according to the Choke apologists, Obi-Wan does a lot.

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by SunRazer
We're not using Canon. We're using composite. And this is the only explicit definition on it.

I didn't say anything about immediately penetrating his defenses. Maul had ample time. As I said, your interpretation of TCW's animations doesn't surpass the novel's writing. Obi-Wan was a defensive fighter, and using aggressive attacks wasn't his MO in fights against Maul, hence why the latter was surprised when he did.

Just accept it and move on.

We are debating Obi-Wan's form in their TCW duels, Legends has nothing to do with it.

Again, the novel never depicts Obi-Wan as defensive, just not an offensive one.

He didn't fight defensively against Grievous on Kamino, he didn't fight defensively against Grievous on Saleucami, he didn't fight defensively against Vizla and he didn't fight defensively against Maul on the Turtle Tanker (the earlier part of the fight at least) -> He's a defenisve fighter. Really, way to go Nova.

cs_zoltan

Lmao @ DD9 deciding what sources we can use when he's losing.

SunRazer

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
We are debating Obi-Wan's form in their TCW duels, Legends has nothing to do with it.

Again, the novel never depicts Obi-Wan as defensive, just not an offensive one.

He didn't fight defensively against Grievous on Kamino, he didn't fight defensively against Grievous on Saleucami, he didn't fight defensively against Vizla and he didn't fight defensively against Maul on the Turtle Tanker (the earlier part of the fight at least) -> He's a defenisve fighter. Really, way to go Nova.

TCW is also part of Legends, and Shadow Conspiracy is exclusively Legends erm

DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by SunRazer
TCW is also part of Legends, and Shadow Conspiracy is exclusively Legends erm

I don't have the novel on-hand, so I can't comment on whether or not it explicitly mentions him being defensive, but one would assume that it's following the Legends timeline. Either way, with regard to Legends, my point stands. Obi-Wan's a defensive fighter and a presumable equal of Maul.

I'm not going to entertain a discussion on this for Canon, since some of my other evidence doesn't function anyway. The only thing we're worrying about is what takes precedence for composite. And given how Legends entirely establishes Obi-Wan as a defensive fighter, not to mention some sources in Canon (with Filoni's animations being the only outlier - surprise), I'd imagine that Obi-Wan's defensive style is the way to go and that he's about equal with Maul. As I said, the gap is negligible anyway. Arguing that Maul is better because Obi-Wan fought defensively is just stretching.

You're honestly comparing a Legends source like (for example) LoE with Shadow Conspiracy (which is based on Canon)?

You're actually saying that you have no evidence that it follows the rest of Legends rather then the Canon TCW which it's based on.

But if you're using Obi-Wan's Legends fighting style then that couldn't possibly apply to their duels in TCW (since it's canon).

I actually think that we aren't going to agree on this, I'm not going to mix Legends and Canon, and I'm just quite tired of debating 4 guys at once.

SunRazer

TCW is, regrettably, Legends as well. The Canon split occurred well after this.

If you don't want to merge the continuities, even better. My point stands for Legends. For Canon, I couldn't care less. Run wild with your conclusions - I'm not going to indulge them today.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Maul is scared to engage Kanan? Oh please Wollf... smile

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
You are basing yourself on Qui-Gon's comment, someone who has barely any knowledge on Maul? Your point is actually contradicted by Shadow Conspiracy which litteraly claims that Maul's become more powerful over the course of TCW. I do like how you perphrase it though, enjoyable to read.

Why shouldn't we take Qui Gon's statement into literal regard? Through the Force, he rightfully served as a device who first discovered the chosen one. He was deeply attuned to the Living Force which enabled him to correctly guess sequences Maul would use in battle - Darth Maul Journals, and he managed to summarise Maul's life very well in a few moments of their fight. Likewise, Sidious also commented that the cadence of Maul's tutelage came before his final send off on Naboo.

Shadow Conspiracy is written in the perspective of characters mentioned in the book, in this case, it would be Darth Maul. It should not be treated as an omniscient source indiscriminative to the limitations of it's writing, more to the point that each passage is characterized from the person commenting. In this case, Maul having grandeur self perceptions of how languishing on Lothor Minor affected his abilties, doesn't have to be taken with literal regard. We know that Maul also thought he would be the eventual successor to Palpatine, which was very far away from Palaptine's true intentions.

As I said before, Obi Wan would experience much higher rates of growth than Maul under these circumstances. The Clone Wars doesn't offer alternative action to the types of adventures Maul faced in his teens. He's already fought through hordes of thugs, anomalies such as the Vong, as well as Jedi and their apprentices - Anoon Bondara and Darhsa Assant. He doesn't have much to gain, if at all. The difference between their lifestyles could be compared to an Israelis combat trainee faced with an aristocrat swilling wine from five star hotel rooms. Kenobi had to adapt to the circumstances, and the finished product is someone who can drive Maul's cowardice packing with his dismembered brother in arm. It simply means that Kenobi is the more resourceful fighter and isn't as incompetent as someone who gets parred by multiple Padawans... is that so hard to believe?

Then you have to prove to me that Maul can fight on par with a hindered Anakin, and eventually beat him. So far his track record of battles hasn't allowed him to defeat anyone near that level.

1) There are times when that rage takes precedent and Sith find themselves performing extraordinarily outside of their capacities. Yes, I'm suggesting that this was one of those times where Maul was extra specially angry at the person he blames for turning his life upside down. If he could just Force choke Kenobi on any occasion, the the former should have been killed on Florumm, it wouldn't have taken more than a minute to crush his capillaries.

2) As I said before, on that occasion, Obi Wan couldn't even muster then energy to stand up correctly, much less project a reliable Force defence

3) It absolutely does. Why drag out the battle when you can maintain a prolonged grip over your adversary? Giving you enough time to simply draw him to your blade or let your murderous brother slay him in the moment. He has nothing to gain by releasing that grip, other than it relieving him from strain, which suggests he could not maintain it. This is simply a case of Kenobi being caught off guard and his opponent not powerful enough to keep him there.

The Novel as characterised from the perspective of Maul gives rationalisations to why they couldn't win. Their inability to adapt to Kenobi fighting aggressively is just that, and the environment restricts the vantage and positioning of everyone involved. One can just day that Obi Wan prevailed under negative circumstances, using a form he doesn't favor.

Your point? The pain and shock clearly wasn't enough to send him under. In fact, it didn't seem to affect him at all when they where running away from Hondo's reclaimed group of misfits. That doesn't excuse Maul's decision to personally retreat, meaning that there must be another - he doesn't want to be cut in half again perhaps?

Beniboybling

Maul isn't accurate source on his own capabilities Ziggy? Kek. Well maybe your boy Obi-Wan will suffice:

Ziggystardust

Fair enough, i didn't know where the source came from. Still, Maul seems to get less competent with time to the point where even fodder tier's like Ashoka can compete. A pretty strong indication that he's gone down hill, or that he was never on top of the hill to begin with.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
even fodder tier's like Ashoka can compete. Lmao.

Also in regards to Maul's decision to retreat on Florrum, it was a calculated risk assessment in which he evidently prioritised the integrity of his plan over killing Kenobi:Not because he was afraid of the guy he'd just TKO'ed. Lol.

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao.

Yep. Anyone who can't stomp Rebels Maul within four seconds of fighting should be classed as a laughing stock.

Indeed. He didn't want to die. Your point? Maul wanting to settle the score later doesn't mean he wants to fight him again. We know of course, how Maul deals with characters that are too strong for him - click

Maul never TKO'd Kenobi in that match. You might know that if you started watching professional fights instead of parading on gay pride marches.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Yep. Anyone who can't stomp Rebels Maul within four seconds of fighting should be classed as a laughing stock.What impressive circular logic. Got anything more substantial?Uh-huh, my point dear is that Maul's intent to kill Kenobi at that moment is obvious, however he restrains himself for the sake of his wider schemes.

Now to put that into greater contexts for those who failed to pick up on them while watching the episode. At the beginning of which are told that the Jedi are "too many" for Maul and Savage to stand against alone, later, when the Jedi find them on Florrum Maul bemoans that "it's too soon, my plan isn't finished yet", then to add insult to injury his brother ends up losing an arm, making them further ill equipped to stand against the looming Jedi threat.

In other words even if Maul had continued to fight and succeeded in killing Kenobi, he'd remain left with an armless brother, an incomplete power base (as well as insufficient man power to secure it) and the inevitable deployment of more Jedi. Under those circumstances retreat was a smart decision.
Homophobic slurs only make you look less intelligent dear, as hard it may be to believe that is still possible. On the other hand:

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4817661-collapse+cave.gif

I'd stick to watching WWE, yeah.

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What impressive circular logic. Got anything more substantial?

Other than telling you to accept the ground realities of Maul?

So it's a concession?

And why does he refrain himself for the sake of wider schemes? Perhaps because those wider scheme's might need a living sentient being to act them out, rather than a headless body left to decompose on a backwater planet? Of course, running away from Obi Wan is sensible, Maul has seen what Kenobi can do to Savage with his brother aiding him, he's also seen what a younger Kenobi can do to Maul by virtue of superior speed - click

So you admit that the fighting Force of Gaila and Kenobi is too much Force Maul? In which case, concession accepted. Or are you making a general statement in regard to the Jedi order, and the type of numbers they could summon for a mission on the scale of the Geonosis invasion, which is completely absent from the episode altogether?

And yet, they still chase after Kenobi, in your opinion, needlessly.

You mean the non existent threat that doesn't show up to aid Kenobi?

That's just pure conjecture, there's nothing indicating that more Jedi were about to be deployed. Leaving Kenobi alive only means he can relay more information to council once he returns, safe and healthily. And this totally contradicts the Idea that Maul can simply ragdoll Obi Wan whenever he wants.

That's a conversation for another day. Also.., I don't see what's homophobic about my comment? Did I say gays were bad or should be executed as per the Koran? Nope, I said that if you spent less time getting a hard on every time you grabbed your dick to piss, and learned what the definition of a TKO is, you might understand why it doesn't fit the description of what Maul did to Kenobi.

A technical knockout occurs when the referee determines that one of the fighters cannot continue the fight, which is not the same as a fighter getting up only moments later to engage in a Force sprint.

http://www.facegarage.com/content/uploads/ytToGIF_gafgaareec988986.gif

All this proves is that Maul can't be compared to real powerhouses who leave Kenobi out cold after a Force push. click me

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Other than telling you to accept the ground realities of Maul?Nothing then.Of what I can't imagine.Savage could have been killed in any number of ways if Maul had decided to stick around, quite.
The latter naturally, so your point is?Needlessly? Hardly. Kenobi's death would have benefitted Maul's plans in a number of ways, however after Savage was crippled he'd begun to hit diminishing returns.Are you familiar with the passage of time?Uh-huh, to begin with you're failing to frame this within the contexts of Maul's perspective. Who has every reason to believe the Jedi, as a body, now know where he is (which if Adi and Kenobi had any sense, they probably did) and will continue to send people to kill him until he is dead - as we are told they have been doing at the beginning of the episode. In which case Maul, his dismembered brother, a half formed power base standing on contested ground and with a powerful Jedi still to eliminate, are hardly a match, and very vulnerable.
I appreciate the backtracking, it's what people like yourself tend to do when called out on their BS. On the other hand yeah he was knocked out, by telekinesis, and I couldn't care less whether that fits with your rulebook definition, when in a fictional duel between space wizards with lazer swords there are no frikken referees lmao.

Anyway, the point is Maul was hardly at his mercy, rather he was able to exert telekinetic domination over him with ease.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by MythLord
I doubt Kenobi would get kicked by, and be at the mercy of, Ezra.

He wins.

Dunno about that. He did get owned by Cad Bane once.

I think people are forgetting how much Filoni used to shit on Kenobi as well during the early seasons of TCW.

He only gave him his worth again when Maul came along. So there's still hope for Maul to be redeemed yet.

Trocity

Yeah, Maul trolling aside, Kenobi wins.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uh-huh, my point dear is that Maul's intent to kill Kenobi at that moment is obvious, however he restrains himself for the sake of his wider schemes.

Now to put that into greater contexts for those who failed to pick up on them while watching the episode. At the beginning of which are told that the Jedi are "too many" for Maul and Savage to stand against alone, later, when the Jedi find them on Florrum Maul bemoans that "it's too soon, my plan isn't finished yet", then to add insult to injury his brother ends up losing an arm, making them further ill equipped to stand against the looming Jedi threat.

In other words even if Maul had continued to fight and succeeded in killing Kenobi, he'd remain left with an armless brother, an incomplete power base (as well as insufficient man power to secure it) and the inevitable deployment of more Jedi. Under those circumstances retreat was a smart decision.
Homophobic slurs only make you look less intelligent dear, as hard it may be to believe that is still possible. On the other hand:

thumb up

Darth Thor

Originally posted by MythLord
And then letting Ezra floor him? I'm sure Sidious, Vader or Dooku let their apprentices floor them in a fit of rage just cuz... Oh no wait; Vader couldn't touch Sidious, Dooku one-shotted Asajj, and Vader brutalized Marek in early spars

Well actually if we go by Filoni (the guy whose shitting all over Maul himself) then Luke was not a match for Vader in any way, shape or form as applied to Saber combat. So Vader must have let Luke floor him.

Luke was the apprentice Vader wanted just as Ezra is the apprentice Maul wants.

Also Palpatine let Galen drop him. And if we go by Witer, then Vader let Starkiller II drop him in TFU II.

So that's certainly a plausible set-up for a potential Master to do.

McP

Sabers - Kenobi, barely. I can see them equals as duelists during TCW. Assuming, that Kenobi bacame at least a bit better, he should takes this in a titanic fight

Force - Maul takes this, he's Kenobi's superior by some margin

Regular - Tie or very small majority for Kenobi. Kenobi can focus all of his attention on Maul, so I doubt, that he'll be catched off-gaurd by choke or smth. Sabers would be deciding factor.

OM Maul - Kenobi takes this, with moderate difficulty at worst.

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nothing then.

Accepting the ground realities of fodder Maul 101.

That's not an excuse. Savage isn't an incubated fetus. Not only could he pick up his leg-less brother and carry him to their escapee vessel directly afterwards, but he could also apparently deflect shots from Hondo's motley cru with the arm still attached to his body. Maul could have instructed him to flee the action entierely and let his elder brother share him in dismemberment... but of course, Maul would rather not fight Kenobi on his own.

So it's a concession?

I am framing this from the perspective of Maul, taking into regard his personal experiences with the Jedi before his self imposed exile. Maul has no reason to believe that the Jedi as a body would turn up univited, bursting into a the outer rim in cliched 'you and what army' stylee. Why, might you ask? Because such a backup plan was absent on - of all places - Naboo, given that he was perfectly content in killing both Qui Gon and his younger padwan until his legs went missing - but hey perhaps that's the reason why Maul doesn't want to fight Kenobi, rather than the looming threat of a non existent Jedi strike that would eventually come to spill his salt shakers.

I honestly don't care what you do with your anus. I'm merely suggesting that hours spent ensnaring underaged boys on Grindr could have been consumed by doing something productive, such as watching UFC.

He was neither knocked out nor was he TKO'd, and yes Beni, when you use words or phrases that have literal definitions, i expect you to use them with their assigned meaning. I would similarly call you out if lothario was being used as another term for a serial murderer. Wizards with laser swords do not make any length to adjust the native language you and I are - supposedly - fluent in. So let's clarify this, a technical knockout is when a fighter isn't fit enough to carry on fighting. Seen as that term can't be used to describe Kenobi in that situation, it doesn't apply to him.

In other words, Maul slammed Kenobi into wall with little immediate or lasting effect, seen as the latter could just get up and start sprinting after him. All this goes to show is that Maul can't compete with the likes of Dooku - who actually can leave Kenobi out cold. In other words, DE Luke should be vastly superior to Palatine and be able to rag doll him on any given day.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That's not an excuse. Savage isn't an incubated fetus. Not only could he pick up his leg-less brother and carry him to their escapee vessel directly afterwards, but he could also apparently deflect shots from Hondo's motley cru with the arm still attached to his body. Maul could have instructed him to flee the action entierely and let his elder brother share him in dismemberment... but of course, Maul would rather not fight Kenobi on his own.Dismemberment is perfectly rational excuse lmao, and Savage's ability to escape with his life does not preclude his inability to take on and defeat a horde of pirates in combat, or not get killed by Kenobi, or perhaps both at once.Really? Because from where I'm sitting it looks like your grasping at straws.Right, I never recall making the argument that the entire Jedi Order would arrive in force, that was a narrative you constructed in one of your nonsense ramblings. On the other hand yes, the fact that Jedi outnumbered the Brothers 5,000 to 1 and were relentlessly pursuing them across the galaxy were a present concerns for Maul made plain at the beginning of the episode. And in their present state, 2 or 3 might be enough to at least do Savage in.A mission he was instructed to complete at his Master's behest, and with a mindset that Shadow Conspiracy notes has evolved since those events. In other words a moot point. laughing out loud

Sorry, I meant telekinetic knock out, I guess I wasn't think about your TV program when debating Star Wars.Blowing Kenobi away across a dozen meters or so, and still retaining enough force to incapacitate him, however briefly, is a notable display of telekinetic superiority yes, and I fail to see how it compares to throwing a clone of Palpatine across a few feet who had yet to regain his full strength.

As for this (irrelevant) comparison with Dooku you keep trying to shoe-horn into the debate, an impressive feat for the Count yes, but I wonder if he'd be able to replicate it only by employing a Force push as Maul did. But then we already know the answer to that.

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dismemberment is perfectly rational excuse lmao

lmao, of course it isn't. For Savage, he has been wounded by a heated instrument that prevents bleeding or catching infection, he doesn't even need to be treated. Repost for intense pain, an average shitlib like yourself could survive this. So a seven-foot muscletank who can summon external energy to sustain himself should just be fine. Not only is he able to survive, but he's still actually in a position to walk, run and carry on fighting Kenobi if loosing more limbs becomes is a fetish. In Attack of the Clones Obi Wan couldn't even stand up, yet Dooku receives no pause from Anakin, and not even Yoda, who upon seeing dismembered Jedi piled up on top of one another, thinks tactical retreat is necessary... so what's Maul's excuse? Could it be that he doesn't want to battle an obviously superior swordsman?

Neither Maul or Savage know that there's a horde of pirates waiting to capture them, he doesn't know that Hondo has reclaimed the once traitorous cast off's that worked under him. I thought we were reframing this from Maul's perspective? Or does that no longer suit your argument? Because they're finally faced with the insolent Hondo, it is made evidently clear that they have only one reason to flee - they are running away form Kenobi

You have no evidence to prove that the Anti-maul strike team exists, let alone Maul believing one might turn up. If he did, he would say this to Savage - "we should leave, more will be coming", but he doesn't. Instead he pursues Kenobi relentlessly until he no longer has the advantage of another set of hands fighting alongside him. The change of circumstance often prompts an Oh Crap! expression, and inevitably Maul can't afford to have more limbs replaced with metal. So now that we can strike off non-existent armies coming to aid the not-so-endangered Obi Wan, what do you have left? Are you going to tell me they weren't retreating, but were simply advancing in the opposite direction? What excuses for Maul can be left other than that he's simply an inferior fighter.

Well it was neither knock-out nor was it technical, so that's a moot point. All you've proven is that Maul can barely leave Kenobi scratching his head, before he can get up and chasing them down. And yes, sorry Beni words have had assigned meaning in linguistics dating as far back as the Twenty-sixth dynasty Egypt. Take some time out of watching prolapsing rectums of fatogayporn.com to educate yourself.

Well that's irrelevant seen as Maul couldn't knock Kenobi out by grappling him or pushing him - - click - and he certainly couldn't do it with Anakin Skywalker whispering behind him. If anything Kenobi's is maul's TK superior drawn from an account of feats.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
lmao, of course it isn't. For Savage, he has been wounded by a heated instrument that prevents bleeding or catching infection, he doesn't even need to be treated. Repost for intense pain, an average shitlib like yourself could survive this. So a seven-foot muscletank who can summon external energy to sustain himself should just be fine. Not only is he able to survive, but he's still actually in a position to walk, run and carry on fighting Kenobi if loosing more limbs becomes is a fetish. In Attack of the Clones Obi Wan couldn't even stand up, yet Dooku receives no pause from Anakin, and not even Yoda, who upon seeing dismembered Jedi piled up on top of one another, thinks tactical retreat is necessary... so what's Maul's excuse? Could it be that he doesn't want to battle an obviously superior swordsman?That wasn't the point at all, rather that with one arm missing fighting effectively becomes rather difficult, especially with a double bladed lightsaber, do I really need to explain why?

In which case yes, Maul needs Savage's muscle to secure their territory and ward off future Jedi threats, nor is his arm getting any better. Even if more Jedi have arrived tomorrow they'd still be unprepared. How that compares to Anakin and Kenobi's situation when they had the Seppies on the run, and an army of Jedi and clones at their back I don't know, but then logic clearly isn't your strong suit.And I never suggested he did, on the other hand yes, Hondo's base remains manned by enemy forces they need to defeat. The fact that Maul does not know the state of the battlefield only making his position more uncertain and therefore vulnerable.I don't need to prove anything, only demonstrate Maul was off a particular mindset. Something which is make crystal clear at the beginning of the episode, and reinforced later on. Regardless if the criteria for such is verbal confirmation of his thought process in situ, then your point rather falls flat since at nowhere does Maul say "let's get out of here, we are outmatched" (that sounds familiar.)

Nonetheless it's interesting that you bring that to attention, considering what Maul actually says is:And where else does Maul refer to a plan? Oh yes, at the beginning of the episode messed

o the 'plan' Maul is referring to is one of survival, against the looming threat of the Jedi. In which case it had failed because Savage's rate of survivability had been, well, dismembered, along with the muscle required to secure any meaningful force or territories. thumb up

I get that gayness triggers you Ziggy, but you needn't make it so obvious.

Regardless if all you have left are strawman and ad hominens then, concession accepted.
Another flawed comparison considering Maul was not in a position to accelerate Kenobi to nearly the same extent. On the other hand he demonstrated greater telekinetic output in the example I provided, so yes, I wouldn't say its outside his pay grade.

And I lol'ed.