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Old Master Maul vs. Ventress (Legends only).

Setting is Malachor.

Round 1: Lightsabers
Round 2: Force
Round 3: All out

Maul in all three

Ventress.
Maul.
Not sure.

Maul wins

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Maul in all three

This.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Maul in all three

Want to debate this Thor? :P

Maul rhymes with all.

Maul should win

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Want to debate this Thor? :P


Sure. Which part are you arguing? I guess I can see a case for LEGENDS Ventress winning the Force going by her OCW feats. But apart from that, she was always below Kenobi and AOTC Anakin. Heck she was below Grievous. Hence she's solidly below Maul.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sure. Which part are you arguing? I guess I can see a case for LEGENDS Ventress winning the Force going by her OCW feats. But apart from that, she was always below Kenobi and AOTC Anakin. Heck she was below Grievous. Hence she's solidly below Maul.

The sabers part.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sure. Which part are you arguing? I guess I can see a case for LEGENDS Ventress winning the Force going by her OCW feats. But apart from that, she was always below Kenobi and AOTC Anakin. Heck she was below Grievous. Hence she's solidly below Maul.

Maul ragdolling the 7th Sister as a casual exercise for Ezra is kind of impressive, she was holding back the Phantom alongside the 5th Brother.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The sabers part.


She's outclassed by Maul there.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
She's outclassed by Maul there.

Go on. I'd like some elaboration on why you think that.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Go on. I'd like some elaboration on why you think that.



Matching TPM Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan combined. Stomping Opress.


His physical strength and martial prowess. His Mastery of Multiple Saber forms.

You realize he doesn't retain the physical strength or skill he had by Rebels?

And that if we're to consider his prime as of SoD Rebels Ventress already matched him for the time it took for Obi Wan to get around Savage and open the escape pod's hatch. With a single blade after having very little time to adjust I might add.

Then there's their comparative performances against Grievous where Ventress is the clear superior.

Not to mention if you're going to claim TPM Maul matched Jinn and Obi Wan when he was giving ground constantly then I can claim the same for Ventress in regards to Anakin and Obi Wan. Another unfavorable comparison for you.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not to mention if you're going to claim TPM Maul matched Jinn and Obi Wan when he was giving ground constantly then I can claim the same for Ventress in regards to Anakin and Obi Wan. Another unfavorable comparison for you.


Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul



Source: Star Wars Fact File 001

Evidence suggests that Maul purposefully gave ground to the duo, so I wouldn't count that against him.

Originally posted by Solar Power
Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul



Source: Star Wars Fact File 001

Evidence suggests that Maul purposefully gave ground to the duo, so I wouldn't count that against him.

Yes. That's when he's alone with Jinn where it blatantly makes note Maul is luring him in. I never claimed he wasn't superior to Jinn. I'm referring to Obi Wan and Jinn who Maul knew he'd need to separate to defeat.

Where's the evidence that he purposefully gave ground to both Obi Wan and Jinn?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You realize he doesn't retain the physical strength or skill he had by Rebels?


Well okay, if you want to go there, I can't really prove his level of physicality as at Rebels, but he was Ahsoka level in acrobatics at least, and still has those mechanical legs.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And that if we're to consider his prime as of SoD Rebels Ventress already matched him for the time it took for Obi Wan to get around Savage and open the escape pod's hatch. With a single blade after having very little time to adjust I might add.

Ventress didn't fight SOD Maul. She only fought "Revenge" Maul, and too briefly to draw any kind of conclusion from.

Maul was also using a single blade (his preferred weapon the last time he fought was the Saber staff), without even a full handle. He also didn't have time to adjust to his new weapon (heck he didn't have time to get back into Saber fighting period). But At least Ventress's weapon was her own weapon that she uses all the time. Maul's weapon had been cut.



Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Then there's their comparative performances against Grievous where Ventress is the clear superior.


Maul fought a far better trained Grievous. In any case, I don't see how Ventress's performance was clearly superior.





Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not to mention if you're going to claim TPM Maul matched Jinn and Obi Wan when he was giving ground constantly then I can claim the same for Ventress in regards to Anakin and Obi Wan. Another unfavorable comparison for you.


Maul was voluntarily giving ground. TPM Novel confirms he was a match for both combatants (even if that isn't strictly Canon now, it's still the closest thing we have to a Canon commentary on that fight).

Ventress just fought off Anakin and Obi-Wan, and was never truly a match for each of them individually, let alone both of them combined.



Also so far you seem to be discussing Canon Ventress, not Legends Ventress. Ventress is definitely no match for Maul in Canon. Aside from me not being able to prove Rebels Maul physical level, but I don't see any clear evidence it's deteriorated.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul was also using a single blade (his preferred weapon the last time he fought was the Saber staff), without even a full handle. He also didn't have time to adjust to his new weapon. At least Ventress's weapon was her own weapon that she uses a lot.
Not to mention the fact that Maul had just gotten cybernetic legs that were completely different in form from the legs he was used to having, and Savage remarked him growing in power during the period of time after his return.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ventress just fought off Anakin and Obi-Wan, and was never truly a match for each of them individually, let alone both of them combined.
Also... yeaaa...

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/emperordmb/blog/the-teamwork-of-anakenobi-walker-in-tcw/125609/

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Maul was voluntarily giving ground. TPM Novel confirms he was a match for both combatants (even if that isn't strictly Canon now, it's still the closest thing we have to a Canon commentary on that fight).

Ventress just fought off Anakin and Obi-Wan, and was never truly a match for each of them individually, let alone both of them combined.

You bring an interesting point syndicate, but I agree with Thor here; the fact that he gave ground during the fight (I need to rewatch the fight, but I think I may know what part you're talking about) is no indication he's inferior to the duo when the novel suggests Maul is more than a match for the duo's combined skills.






Meanwhile, Ventress must always flea from confrontations against both Anakin and Obi Wan, and is nowhere (to my knowledge) ever referred to as having parity to the duo.

Edit: *flee

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well okay, if you want to go there, I can't really prove his level of physicality as at Rebels, but he was Ahsoka level in acrobatics at least, and still has those mechanical legs.



Ventress didn't fight SOD Maul. She only fought "Revenge" Maul, and too briefly to draw any kind of conclusion from.

Maul was also using a single blade (his preferred weapon the last time he fought was the Saber staff), without even a full handle. He also didn't have time to adjust to his new weapon (heck he didn't have time to get back into Saber fighting period). But At least Ventress's weapon was her own weapon that she uses all the time. Maul's weapon had been cut.






Maul fought a far better trained Grievous. In any case, I don't see how Ventress's performance was clearly superior.








Maul was voluntarily giving ground. TPM Novel confirms he was a match for both combatants (even if that isn't strictly Canon now, it's still the closest thing we have to a Canon commentary on that fight).

Ventress just fought off Anakin and Obi-Wan, and was never truly a match for each of them individually, let alone both of them combined.



Also so far you seem to be discussing Canon Ventress, not Legends Ventress. Ventress is definitely no match for Maul in Canon. Aside from me not being able to prove Rebels Maul physical level, but I don't see any clear evidence it's deteriorated.

Ahsoka level acrobatics? How so?

You don't think Maul ensured that he was at least able to effectively wield his weapon before going after Kenobi? That's not in line with his character. He wants revenge on Kenobi but he's not stupid.

Granted Grievous would be better trained but that is dependent entirely on the time gap between those two fights. Her performance was clearly superior because she beat him where Grievous and Maul were going back and forth before he BFR'ed him.

Maul voluntarily gave ground to Qui Gon. He attempted to separate the two because he couldn't beat them together. If you can provide the passage that he gave ground to the two of them I'd appreciate it.

Depends on at what point in the war you're referring to.

Ah, I didn't see the Legends up there. Do you want to continue this then?

Maul's musculature has clearly diminished given his dimensions in Rebels not to mention the fact that he's out of his physical prime and thus logically physically weaker when not taking into account augmentation.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Not to mention the fact that Maul had just gotten cybernetic legs that were completely different in form from the legs he was used to having, and Savage remarked him growing in power during the period of time after his return.

And you don't think he would have adjusted to the point where he was combat capable before going after Kenobi?

ILS
ILS
ILS

Originally posted by Solar Power
You bring an interesting point syndicate, but I agree with Thor here; the fact that he gave ground during the fight (I need to rewatch the fight, but I think I may know what part you're talking about) is no indication he's inferior to the duo when the novel suggests Maul is more than a match for the duo's combined skills.






Meanwhile, Ventress must always flea from confrontations against both Anakin and Obi Wan, and is nowhere (to my knowledge) ever referred to as having parity to the duo.

Edit: *flee

Maul is definitely more skilled then the two individually. I'm simply noting ( as the quotes you provided do ) that it was Jinn and Obi Wan on the offensive and while they were not skilled enough to achieve an early resolution they were forcing him back. Unless the novel notes otherwise?

She's demonstrated superiority to them both at various points in the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And you don't think he would have adjusted to the point where he was combat capable before going after Kenobi?
Capable is one thing, optimal is something completely different.

For instance, that point is what you're argument is dependent on. Ventress is obviously capable with a single blade since she can still fight, but you're arguing that having one blade isn't optimal for her since she uses Jar'kai.

It's the same thing with Maul except that instead of it being with his armament, it's half of his body.

We don't really know what the adjustment for Maul was like given the legs were fused to his body with Talzin's magic. His body was connected to those prosthetic with the Force.

There's a metric f*ckton of sources stating Maul was > both Jinn and Kenobi at the same time, and that he was having a fun time of fighting them both. One is a factfile literally saying their combined offence is inadequate to defeat Maul with.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
-
Nice argument

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nice argument

Emp edited.

Originally posted by ILS
There's a metric f*ckton of sources stating Maul was > both Jinn and Kenobi at the same time, and that he was having a fun time of fighting them both. One is a factfile literally saying their combined offence is inadequate to defeat Maul with.

Please provide them.

So what exactly is the case for Ventress winning here?

Well I thought this was composite or canon Ventress.

For Legends Ventress I'd have to rethink the fight and come to a conclusion on it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Please provide them.

And just to clarify, not one's from a character's perspective unless its Qui Gon or Obi Wan's.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Please provide them. I'll just post all the versions of the fight in a google doc and let you judge for yourself if Maul was losing. Not sure if I have the fact file quote.

*Sigh*

ILS encouraging literacy.

Disgusting.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Well I thought this was composite or canon Ventress.

For Legends Ventress I'd have to rethink the fight and come to a conclusion on it. Please anything, anything at all.

For canon/composite?

Whichever you think has the best chance.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
We don't really know what the adjustment for Maul was like given the legs were fused to his body with Talzin's magic. His body was connected to those prosthetic with the Force.
Okay... that doesn't mean Talzin implanted some motor control muscle memory shit into Maul's mind, otherwise he wouldn't have fallen over the first time he tried to stand and visibly adjust to his legs before he could stand unaided.

I think you're downplaying the significance of the fact that Maul has lived his life with a certain type of legs that he has decades of intimate experience using, and largely developed his entire martial arts around (things like height, balance, stance, leverage, agility, unarmed combat etc.), and now he's stuck in a fight against Kenobi and Ventress with legs he's maybe had a few days with if we're being generous.

Ventress on the other hand is deprived of one of her weapons, but she's still fighting with a weapon she has intimate experience using.

It seems pretty obvious to me which is the biggest hindrance, especially considering Maul's used to fighting with another blade as well.

She's already demonstrated parity/superiority with a superior version as I mentioned.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Maul is definitely more skilled then the two individually. I'm simply noting ( as the quotes you provided do ) that it was Jinn and Obi Wan on the offensive and while they were not skilled enough to achieve an early resolution they were forcing him back. Unless the novel notes otherwise?

She's demonstrated superiority to them both at various points in the Clone Wars.

Hmm, I think I see what you're trying to say, but in the novel, at the moment when Jinn and Obi Wan reached the offensive, "pinning" Maul between them, Maul had the skill to separate them. What you're implying is that because Maul tactically separated the duo, he's inferior to them, when the case is that Maul is good enough to the point where he can separate this duo to regain a tactical position despite being pinned between them. I just don't see how his fight in TPM can be used against him ( besides the ending of course). Qui Gon made the rash decision of pressing the offensive against Maul instead of waiting for Obi Wan, but it's noted that had Qui Gon not done this, Maul would have had time to regroup, implying that had Qui Gon waited for Obi Wan and let Maul regroup, the confrontation wouldn't turn out much better.

If you could give some examples of Ventress's superiority top the duo, that would be appreciated. Btw, in the TPM, it's stated that Qui Gon and Obi Wan have experience fighting together, so separating them is more impressive to me than separating the uncoordinated Anakin and Obi Wan.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oXnCMk1QFT1RISOjpYJewc7N31of5nKNAortWZ9CJGw/edit?usp=sharing

Constant references to Maul being comfortable, leading them/them following Maul, Maul landing the only blows until Qui-Gon's backhand (which came at the expense of Obi-Wan being kicked off the catwalk), references to their combined skill being eclipsed, etc.

The fact that he separated them is very likely only a reflection his desire to execute a clean kill.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Okay... that doesn't mean Talzin implanted some motor control muscle memory shit into Maul's mind, otherwise he wouldn't have fallen over the first time he tried to stand and visibly adjust to his legs before he could stand unaided.

I think you're downplaying the significance of the fact that Maul has lived his life with a certain type of legs that he has decades of intimate experience using, and largely developed his entire martial arts around (things like height, balance, stance, leverage, agility, unarmed combat etc.), and now he's stuck in a fight against Kenobi and Ventress with legs he's maybe had a few days with if we're being generous.

Ventress on the other hand is deprived of one of her weapons, but she's still fighting with a weapon she has intimate experience using.

It seems pretty obvious to me which is the biggest hindrance, especially considering Maul's used to fighting with another blade as well.

That could have simply been because of the weakness of having just had metal fused into your body without anesthetics... Maul's tough but even he's not immune to pain. Also Maul seems to feel pain when the leg is shot and you can see Talzin's magic leaking out from it almost as if it is a wound. Sort of implies she did something to make the legs more apart of him then simple prosthetics. Probably so it WOULD be easier to adjust.

Maul's knows how to fight with a single blade as well. That's what he fought with for most of his training before building his lightsaber. The difference between Maul and Ventress is that he's been taught to use nearly anything as a weapon and was a general weapons master while Ventress was mostly specialized as a Jar Kai duelist.

Really depends on the legs Talzin provided Maul with since we know Maul was not only a weapons master outside of the lightsaber but was certainly a master with the single blade as well since his saber staff had a detachable hilt.

Originally posted by Solar Power
Hmm, I think I see what you're trying to say, but in the novel, at the moment when Jinn and Obi Wan reached the offensive, "pinning" Maul between them, Maul had the skill to separate them. What you're implying is that because Maul tactically separated the duo, he's inferior to them, when the case is that Maul is good enough to the point where he can separate this duo to regain a tactical position despite being pinned between them. I just don't see how his fight in TPM can be used against him ( besides the ending of course). Qui Gon made the rash decision of pressing the offensive against Maul instead of waiting for Obi Wan, but it's noted that had Qui Gon not done this, Maul would have had time to regroup, implying that had Qui Gon waited for Obi Wan and let Maul regroup, the confrontation wouldn't turn out much better.

If you could give some examples of Ventress's superiority top the duo, that would be appreciated. Btw, in the TPM, it's stated that Qui Gon and Obi Wan have experience fighting together, so separating them is more impressive to me than separating the uncoordinated Anakin and Obi Wan.

Maul's tactical prowess is impressive and while I think the fight could have gone on for a respectable period the duo would have ultimately worn him down. This is why Maul being the tactically minded individual he was chose to give ground and tire out his opponents rather then face them head on.

For Anakin her scarring of Anakin where she could have ended his life just months before the end of the Clone Wars. For Obi Wan I'd have to go digging through my old Clone Wars comics.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That could have simply been because of the weakness of having just had metal fused into your body without anesthetics... Maul's tough but even he's not immune. Also Maul seems to feel pain when the leg is shot and you can see Talzin's magic leaking out from it almost as if it is a wound. Sort of implies she did something to make the legs more apart of him then simple prosthetics. Probably so it WOULD be easier to adjust. The point is he had to adjust to brand new legs. Hence why he was stumbling to begin with. Opposed to adjusting to one less lightsaber. I don't see how you can mitigate Maul's circumstance but not Ventress'.

Prove that Ventress is inferior with one blade. She had no issue handing it over to Kenobi, and she opted to use one in Dark Disciple.

As for Maul's robot legs, they were more than prosthetics. He shouts in pain whenever they're injured, and he was stabbed in the pelvic area of the legs in the Death Sentence comic, which made Judd remark that it wouldn't take Maul long to die with a wound like that.

You see Maul stumbling around aboard the Turtle Tanker lol.

Maul is also in the same boat as Ventress regarding his lightsaber, Syn has zero case here.

Originally posted by ILS
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oXnCMk1QFT1RISOjpYJewc7N31of5nKNAortWZ9CJGw/edit?usp=sharing

Constant references to Maul being comfortable, leading them/them following Maul, Maul landing the only blows until Qui-Gon's backhand (which came at the expense of Obi-Wan being kicked off the catwalk), references to their combined skill being eclipsed, etc.
I'm curious ILS, what's your argument for Maul having great dueling feats in TPM, cause that seems to be TPM Maul's most lacking area in martial combat (relatively speaking).

He's got insane ass baseline physicality, insane and heavily refined technical skill, some rather immense power in the Force, yet as far as dueling feats go, the best he has is being>Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and Qui-Gon gets most of his props for how he stacks up against Maul. That's kinda the main reason I have a rather decent gap between TPM and TCW Maul since TCW is when Maul gets shit like his fights against Savage, Obi-Wan, etc. more concrete displays of superiority to other great duelists.

I'm not trying to downplay the impressiveness of TPM Maul and Qui-Gon the Qui-Gon Obi-Wan duo as far as dueling showings/scaling goes, as even pre-TPM Obi-Wan is one of the greatest duelists in the Jedi Order, and since Maul and Qui-Gon are both considerably ahead of Anoon Bondara, whose a Weapons Master (which IMO is considerably better than being a battlemaster, and marks him as being among the greatest duelists in the history of the Jedi Order), along with Anoon having hype from some people actually thinking he's the greatest duelist in the Order.

I still have TPM Maul above peeps like Ventress and Savage, I'm just kinda curious as to whether there's another angle for his dueling scaling/feats I hadn't considered before.

Qui-Gon is noted to be one of the Order's best pure swordsman in history, and I believe Anoon admits his inferiority to him, yeah.

TPM Kenobi is also noted to be an exceptional Padawan and rivalling his master in some aspects.

Originally posted by ILS
references to their combined skill being eclipsed, etc.

I didn't see that one in particular. If you could provide the specific passage I'd appreciate it.

Reading them over it appears that Maul was a match for them.

Also Syn, still waiting for a case for Ventress, seeing as you haven't made one yet.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That could have simply been because of the weakness of having just had metal fused into your body without anesthetics... Maul's tough but even he's not immune. Also Maul seems to feel pain when the leg is shot and you can see Talzin's magic leaking out from it almost as if it is a wound. Sort of implies she did something to make the legs more apart of him then simple prosthetics. Probably so it WOULD be easier to adjust.
Okay, so his nervous system is linked to his legs. If I gave you a completely different set of legs from the ones you had now, even if you could feel them, are you seriously telling me that within a few days, you'd have near the same comfort ability to use those legs as you did your own legs? Almost certainly not. And you haven't even spent decades developing a martial fighting style around your specific body only for half of it to completely change on you.

I mean shit, just from growing Kenobi made clumsy mistakes because his legs felt awkward and differently proportioned than what he was used to, and that's a gradual change, not being stuck with a completely separate set of legs.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Maul's knows how to fight with a single blade as well. That's what he fought with for most of his training before building his lightsaber. The difference between Maul and Ventress is that he's been taught to use nearly anything as a weapon and was a general weapons master while Ventress was mostly specialized as a Jar Kai duelist.
Ventress was originally trained to wield a second blade. She only took up Jar'kai when her Jedi master died.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Really depends on the legs Talzin provided Maul with since we know Maul was not only a weapons master outside of the lightsaber but was certainly a master with the single blade as well since his saber staff had a detachable hilt.
Nothing changes the fact that Maul has lived his entire life using a completely set of legs, and that he developed his fighting style with a completely separate set of legs. Even if he has physical sensation in them, it doesn't change much.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You see Maul stumbling around aboard the Turtle Tanker lol.

Maul is also in the same boat as Ventress regarding his lightsaber, Syn has zero case here.

I addressed both of these. You should really learn to read Beni. I hear it can be a useful skill.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also Syn, still waiting for a case for Ventress, seeing as you haven't made one yet.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I addressed this. You should really learn to read Beni. I hear it can be a useful skill.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm curious ILS, what's your argument for Maul having great dueling feats in TPM, cause that seems to be TPM Maul's most lacking area in martial combat (relatively speaking).I see it two ways. In terms of his feat against the duo, Jinn is one of the most skilled Jedi ever, and left Anoon Bondara humbled, whose merit you've already mentioned. TPM Kenobi not long before TPM sparred Jinn with enough skill to "state his case", and certainly by TPM isn't far off him. Add in that they're a seasoned team who know each other inside and out and you have quite the opposition for just one person.

Yet, as the doc I linked shows, there was a slim chance of Maul losing that fight regardless of whether he made it a war of attrition or separated them.

The other angle I would provide you is to consider how much of a gap there would logically be between TPM and TCW. We know TCW became more powerful, to an extent. We also know that he lost half of his body, gimping how many midichlorians he can channel with the Force (which, as we know in Vader's case, set him below his RotS self until further training/adjusting). I'd say there was a fair increase but not enough to, for example, put Kas'im above TPM Maul but then have TCW Maul outclassing Kas'im, which I think is your take on him?

I personally don't see a huge difference between the two. Time travel TCW Obi-Wan back in time to TPM and you'll still have a great fight. Time travel Savage back in time and he'll still be disarmed with a pressure point before long.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Okay, so his nervous system is linked to his legs. If I gave you a completely different set of legs from the ones you had now, even if you could feel them, are you seriously telling me that within a few days, you'd have near the same comfort ability to use those legs as you did your own legs? Almost certainly not. And you haven't even spent decades developing a martial fighting style around your specific body only for half of it to completely change on you.

I mean shit, just from growing Kenobi made clumsy mistakes because his legs felt awkward and differently proportioned than what he was used to, and that's a gradual change, not being stuck with a completely separate set of legs.


Ventress was originally trained to wield a second blade. She only took up Jar'kai when her Jedi master died.


Nothing changes the fact that Maul has lived his entire life using a completely set of legs, and that he developed his fighting style with a completely separate set of legs. Even if he has physical sensation in them, it doesn't change much.

Granted but then I don't have access to a universal power source that can often directs your movements for you and gives you a greater connection to the universe around you.

He was trained as a Jedi padawan with an average connection to the Force at the time ( given he was at risk of being sent to the Agricultural Corps ). The difference between an adult Maul and a padawan Obi Wan makes this comparison meaningless. Maul has been handicapped similarly all his life. His mission in Lockdown coming to mind. Despite not having the Force to augment his physical capabilities Maul adjusted just fine.

Read above.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I addressed both of these. You should really learn to read Beni. I hear it can be a useful skill. You'll have no trouble repeating yourself then. Anyway:

https://i.imgflip.com/1dp6dl.gif https://i.imgflip.com/1dp6f6.gif

Yeah that wouldn't happen to TPM Maul.

The matter of Ventress being reliant on Jar'Kai having been debunked by Dark Disciple, when opts for and indeed excels at wielding a single blade. So in the absence of a real reason for Ventress winning I remain unconvinced.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Granted but then I don't have access to a universal power source that can often directs your movements for you and gives you a greater connection to the universe around you.

He was trained as a Jedi padawan with an average connection to the Force at the time ( given he was at risk of being sent to the Agricultural Corps ). The difference between an adult Maul and a padawan Obi Wan makes this comparison meaningless. Maul has been handicapped similarly all his life. His mission in Lockdown coming to mind. Despite not having the Force to augment his physical capabilities Maul adjusted just fine.

Read above.
You're trying to tell me that Ventress is going to have a harder time adjusting to a difference in armament where she still has a weapon she's intimately familiar with and has fighting single bladed... and telling me that's somehow harder to deal with than Maul having half of his body suddenly changed on him...

That just doesn't make sense to me. If you're telling me the Force would help Maul magically adjust to that perfectly, then Ventress shouldn't have any problem at all single wielding. Seeing as a difference in armament has had a considerable impact on trained Force users before, I'm inclined to say a difference in half of Maul's body is much less trivial than you're making it out to be.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Granted but then I don't have access to a universal power source that can often directs your movements for you and gives you a greater connection to the universe around you. and this doesn't apply to Ventress with one lightsaber... how?

You guys know that TCW really messes with Maul's past life right? Cause bringing it up and then going on with TCW, I'm not seeing adding up...since Canon.

Cause tbh, looking at Maul before TCW, the stuff that then happens to him with TCW I don't see fitting with what his past showed.

Originally posted by ILS
and this doesn't apply to Ventress with one lightsaber... how?

It does? I'm just saying that the adjustment for a Force user is obviously going to be easier for a non force user.

More complaining about mixing TCW with Legends I see....

smh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah that wouldn't happen to TPM Maul.

The matter of Ventress being reliant on Jar'Kai having been debunked by Dark Disciple, when opts for and indeed excels at wielding a single blade. So in the absence of a real reason for Ventress winning I remain unconvinced.

Prove it.

Prove she was as good wielding a single blade as she was with Jar Kai.

/Shrug

I'm just saying.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Prove it.

Prove she was as good wielding a single blade as she was with Jar Kai. She opted to use just one when she could use two.

Prove she's worse.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Prove it.

Prove she was as good wielding a single blade as she was with Jar Kai.
So you want Beni to prove that... yet you're perfectly fine assuming Maul's just as fine with a completely different lower half because "he can feel his legs and he has teh force"?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It does? I'm just saying that the adjustment for a Force user is obviously going to be easier for a non force user. Ergo Ventress was no worse off than Maul on the turtle tanker.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You're trying to tell me that Ventress is going to have a harder time adjusting to a difference in armament where she still has a weapon she's intimately familiar with and has fighting single bladed... and telling me that's somehow harder to deal with than Maul having half of his body suddenly changed on him...

That just doesn't make sense to me. If you're telling me the Force would help Maul magically adjust to that perfectly, then Ventress shouldn't have any problem at all single wielding. Seeing as a difference in armament has had a considerable impact on trained Force users before, I'm inclined to say a difference in half of Maul's body is much less trivial than you're making it out to be.

No but I'm saying you're overexaggerating the difficulty Maul would have adjusting.

I'm saying that skill is what plays a large part in using a different weapon while the Force helps to compensate with beings that have issues with the biological functions of their body that would normally be debilitating to non Force users. I'm not saying Maul's hindrances were smaller though.

Originally posted by ILS
She opted to use just one when she could use two.

Prove she's worse.

She had the option of using two?

I don't have to because the logical basis is that more experience using a certain weapon combination means your going to be skilled using it then another.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No but I'm saying you're overexaggerating the difficulty Maul would have adjusting.

I'm saying that skill is what plays a large part in using a different weapon while the Force helps to compensate with beings that have issues with the biological functions of their body that would normally be debilitating to non Force users. I'm not saying Maul's hindrances were smaller though. In other words;

"I REALLY WANT VENTRESS TO WIN"

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So you want Beni to prove that... yet you're perfectly fine assuming Maul's just as fine with a completely different lower half because "he can feel his legs and he has teh force"?

Stop strawmanning. I never claimed he would be perfectly fine.

Originally posted by ILS
Ergo Ventress was no worse off than Maul on the turtle tanker.

I'm referring to biological functions here.

And I'm saying a person's fighting style is based around their physical body, but I'm done with this conversation.

No offense, but I'm not wasting any more time trying to get across that having a difference in armament is much easier to deal with than having a difference in half of your body, because I think that should be common sense.

Originally posted by ILS
In other words;

"I REALLY WANT VENTRESS TO WIN"

No I'm simply noting the disadvantages she had at the time and not discounting Maul's.

I'm then comparing their performances against the same opponent under similar circumstances.

And finally I'm taking into account logical degradation.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm done with this conversation.

Goodbye.

Originally posted by ILS
being called her superior by sw.com

This never occurred.

Your argument is becoming increasingly flimsy here Syn and I'm still not seeing a lucid case for Ventress.

Seems like ILS is on the money. Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Prove it.

Prove she was as good wielding a single blade as she was with Jar Kai. On top of what Syn said some of her best lightsaber performances i.e. pressing Kenobi, pressing Dooku, and holding off a bloodlusted Vos for a marathon period, are in DD.

And I'm assuming a concession regarding the gifs.

Vos would pretty easily stomp Maul

Wrong thread darling.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your argument is becoming increasingly flimsy here Syn and I'm still not seeing a lucid case for Ventress. Seems like ILS is on the money. Regardless on top of what Syn said some of her best lightsaber performances i.e. pressing Kenobi, pressing Dooku, and holding off a bloodlusted Vos for a marathon period, are in DD.

And I'm assuming a concession regarding the gifs.

I fail to see how.

Why does that correlate to her skill with the weapon when we know she was growing more powerful?

I addressed your gifs. I'm honestly not joking anymore when I'm telling you to go back and read through this thread. Do that and stop wasting my time.

Originally posted by carthage
Vos would pretty easily stomp Maul

Well, I mean, yeah. He beat Dooku so Maul wouldn't stand a chance.

Feats for Vos that match being knocked down by Ezra Bridger?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I fail to see how.Not sure what you're referring to, but if its the absence of your case well:


^^There it is.

We do? Some measure of growth curve makes sense but she wasn't exactly doing much to push herself as a freelance bounty hunter.

In the time it took you to write out this post, you could have copied and pasted. Or just retyped your response instead.

So for now I'm accepting your concession.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not sure what you're referring to, but if its the absence of your case well:


^^There it is.

We do? Some measure of growth curve makes sense but she wasn't exactly doing much to push herself as a freelance bounty hunter.

In the time it took you to write out this post, you could have copied and pasted. Or just retyped your response instead.

So for now I'm accepting your concession.

There what is?

Yes she was. That's exactly how she made a living till Vos found her.

I'm not going to bother to search through this thread simply because you're too lazy to bother reading my responses. It would be detrimental to society if I enabled you like that.

There is also a fact file quote which kind of hints at the fact that Maul with a single bladed lightsaber could be a lesser threat then with his double bladed variant.

Quote it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
There what is?

Yes she was. That's exactly how she made a living till Vos found her.

I'm not going to bother to search through this thread simply because you're too lazy to bother reading my responses. It would be detrimental to society if I enabled you like that. Nothing. It was a metaphor for your case.

I know, but my point was that in comparison to killing Jedi its not hard work.

So you can't recall your own argument? Lmao. I've read over your responses Syn and I don't know what your referring to, common courtesy would have you reiterate it. I want to know what you think Syn, why so reluctant to share?

The real reason though is that there isn't one. Because your case is shit, so shit in fact that my opinion of Ventress has somehow, gotten even lower. In fact at this point I'm not even confident you could make a case for her beating Sirak. Your that terrible a debatur, and that much of a failure.

Which you have yet to explain why you think is insubstantial despite me providing reasoning and you not being able to come up with a response.

Aurra Sing seemed to manage just fine in progressing her abilities off her bounty hunting. Going from giving a good fight to Jinn and Obi Wan to actively challenging Caedus is a solid growth I'd say.

This is the only time I'm doing this for you.

"Prove it."

There you go. That's about the response your gifs and subsequent claims warranted

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The real reason though is that there isn't one.

Read above.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Which you have yet to explain why you think is insubstantial despite me providing reasoning and you not being able to come up with a response.I would think the absence of a case wouldn't need countering...

Over the course of what like, a century?



I thought that was just there for emphasis.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Read above. Just an update, my opinion of your debating ability just took another substantial hit.

Given you asked and then i gave you an answer you never responded to I'm inclined to believe you either have short term memory loss or are being willfully ignorant.

Nope. Regardless Ventress had enough raw power to choke out both Anakin and Obi Wan so she would grow far more quickly.

Nah. That was in response to your claim "Ha! Wouldn't happen to TPM Maul."

Lol. Given I've beaten you in every debate we've ever been in that doesn't mean much to me.

Nope you just never responded.

Nope? Lol, another concession.

I know, still laughing.

I'm on the floor.

Yes, yes I did.

Yep. Lol, another attempt at denying reality.

I would laugh if your retardation didn't hurt so much.

Me too. Hands crossed in prayer for you. Maybe DMB will offer to take your pain away?

You said that with the last thing but turned out you were talking shit. I'm assuming the same is the case here.

What reality? Aurra has decades upon decades of bounty hunter experience on Ventress, the fact that the latter is more powerful hardly matters. Fact is she hasn't done much to improve her Force mastery.

Cringe. But really Syn, your argument is essentially that I suspend disbelief and conclude that Maul just has shitty footwork, as opposed to the perfectly logical standpoint - your flimsy excuses notwithstanding - that he remained unbalanced on his legs.

It's ironic really considering you lambasted Ant just days ago for the same refusal to accept common sense, but it appears when it comes to own your favourite characters you are no better. Sad.

Except that was not the case. As I told you a few posts ago posting the response for you just now was the only time I will ever do so. If you want to see it search for it yourself you lazy fuc.

I'm pointing out that it's evident a Force user increases in power if they are actively employing their abilities and have yet to fully realize their potential.

Or that Obi Wan was simply able to get the better of him during the fight due to himself having increased substantially in skill from TPM to late into TCW? Lmao.

Or maybe I'm simply not being so close minded to other possibilities that your likely incapable of examining or understanding with your feeble mind?

Just say you don't have one, takes less words.

But not by much if they're not really pushing themselves, which brings us back to the bunk Sing comparison.

By exploiting his sloppy footwork, which he does nowhere else.

An hero.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Maybe DMB will offer to take your pain away?
I know this was a joke, but if anyone on this forum is ever feeling lonely, depressed, afraid, shameful, or self-loathing, feel free to shoot me a PM, and I'll listen to everything you have to say without mocking or condescending, or sharing shit with other people you don't want me to share, and to the best of my ability provide comfort and advice.

When it comes to life, this quest for improvement, for meaning, for love, we're all in this together, and we give each other's lives meaning. It would be an honor to help someone be a happier person.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Also... yeaaa...

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/emperordmb/blog/the-teamwork-of-anakenobi-walker-in-tcw/125609/

Quality read.

I disagree that they were more effective in RotS though. As seen when Dooku pulls Kenobi's saber up to block Anakin, they're still not posing a significant thread and are tripping over each other.

How about I say this. I do have one. I've posted it here in this thread. I'm not going to bother reposting it simply because you're too lazy to bother scanning the last page to find it. Savvy?

Except that Ventress has far greater potential which is why she was actually made one of Dooku's acolytes. Not only one of his acolytes but his strongest acolyte who could use the Force.

That's certainly a possibility. But if so it wouldn't have been solely for that reason. Obi Wan is himself a skilled martial artist by this point capable of capitalizing on an opponent's openings and Maul had just shown he was a clearly superior lightsaber combatant at this time which would have made him overeager. I'm sure I don't have to tell you about Maul's overconfidence often coming into play to his own detriment during fights.

Ditto.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I know this was a joke, but if anyone on this forum is ever feeling lonely, depressed, afraid, shameful, or self-loathing, feel free to shoot me a PM, and I'll listen to everything you have to say without mocking or condescending, or sharing shit with other people you don't want me to share, and to the best of my ability provide comfort and advice.

When it comes to life, this quest for improvement, for meaning, for love, we're all in this together, and we give each other's lives meaning. It would be an honor to help someone be a happier person.

See Beni? It's not all bad. You can find solace at your defeat in the bosom of LSDMB.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
How about I say this. I do have one. I've posted it here in this thread. I'm not going to bother reposting it simply because you're too lazy to bother scanning the last page to find it. Savvy?Concession accept yeah.

You said that already.

Kenobi's skill isn't in question here, its Maul's sloppy footwork, and it was sloppy, you'd have to be a retard not to notice that. With a Force nudge he was spent spinning, and then he Kenobi just rolled over him as he made a staggering attempt to hit back. The rest of your point is just more lame excuses. The common sense approach is outlined at the beginning of the episode.

You furst.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
See Beni? It's not all bad. You can find solace at your defeat in the bosom of LSDMB. And leave you here alone to contemplate your own failings? I'm not that cruel.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Concession accept yeah.

You said that already.

Kenobi's skill isn't in question here, its Maul's sloppy footwork, and it was sloppy, you'd have to be a retard not to notice that. With a Force nudge he was spent spinning, and then he Kenobi just rolled over him as he made a staggering attempt to hit back. The rest of your point is just more lame excuses. The common sense approach is outlined at the beginning of the episode.

You furst.And leave you here alone to contemplate your own failings? I'm not that cruel.

#Learn2grammah.

Yes. You seem to be unaware of this fact.

With a force push of indeterminate strength* And yes I imagine a balanced and acrobatic master like Obi Wan would be able to dodge a blow from a staggered Maul.

No u.

I don't share your delusions Beni so I think I'd be alright.

I'm off. Keep flapping your gums if you want.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
#Learn2grammah.Ur not worth the time.

No I actually responded, then you replied by reiterating the same thing.

Actually it was explicitly casual. And again this isn't about Kenobi's skills.



U have less to live for.

The depression will kick in soon, hard and ugly.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm off. Keep flapping your gums if you want. If ur in a vehicle, I hope you crash. If ur on foot, I hope u get run over.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ur not worth the time.

No I actually responded, then you replied by reiterating the same thing.

Actually it was explicitly casual. And again this isn't about Kenobi's skills.



U have less to live for.

The depression will kick in soon, hard and ugly.

If ur in a vehicle, I hope you crash. If ur on foot, I hope u get run over.

If not me for your fellow man.

No, I pointed out that your comparison was flawed when Ventress clearly has far greater power.

And we still don't know how powerful it was.

That's true but I'm saying my 69th attempt for a special occasion.

It already has.

Me 2.

Ventress would an hero if she saw this attempt at an argument.

Ahsoka would vomit if she knew the kind of fans she had.

Ashley and me are buds. Gtfo.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/Szx1xcZEG1gc/200_s.gif

Originally posted by ILS


I personally don't see a huge difference between the two. Time travel TCW Obi-Wan back in time to TPM and you'll still have a great fight. Time travel Savage back in time and he'll still be disarmed with a pressure point before long.





And good point about Maul losing Midi-Chlorians. Obviously when Vader's potential went down from at least double that of Palpatine's to somewhere around Palpatine level, then it would drastically effect Maul's Force potential as well.

So any increase in power from his Rage, would first have to compensate for his loss of Force potential before he grows more powerful than his TPM self. And that's after he's back at peak form in terms of his combat skill.

Filoni confirms TCW Maul is more powerful then he's ever been.

And he will. Emp is a miracle worker. You can tell by his closeness to God.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Filoni confirms TCW Maul is more powerful then he's ever been.


Quote?

Link?

ILS has it.

We have a quote saying that S4 Maul is "restored to his former power" which means TPM while S5 Maul grows more powerful and surpasses that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor



And good point about Maul losing Midi-Chlorians. Obviously when Vader's potential went down from at least double that of Palpatine's to somewhere around Palpatine level, then it would drastically effect Maul's Force potential as well.

So any increase in power from his Rage, would first have to compensate for his loss of Force potential before he grows more powerful than his TPM self. And that's after he's back at peak form in terms of his combat skill. Nah that's just dumb shit.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
We have a quote saying that S4 Maul is "restored to his former power" which means TPM while S5 Maul grows more powerful and surpasses that.


I know there's quotes in Legends but there's no quote by Filoni that I'm aware of.


Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
ILS has it.


I doubt it.

I don't have one for Filoni, just Legends sources.

Filoni has stated in interviews due to his hatred for Obi Wan and his purpose his power increased.

link?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Quality read.

I disagree that they were more effective in RotS though. As seen when Dooku pulls Kenobi's saber up to block Anakin, they're still not posing a significant thread and are tripping over each other.
It's stated, even in the RotS visual guide for the film, that the duo was toying with Dooku during that stage of the fight.

Originally posted by ILS
link?

You're the one that linked me to them...