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SWTOR Scourge.
Whichever incarnation of Meetra Surik you deign to be her prime.

Maul?

Both seem like fodder on their own tbh, they might present some challenge but will likely go down in the end.

The only reason I made this is because I'm more impressed by Scourge choking a bunch of guards without a gesture than I am by Maul choking Obi-Wan.

Choking people with literally no resistance to telekinesis is more impressive than choking one of the most powerful Jedi ever.

Something just doesn't seem quite right about that.

Originally posted by Geistalt
The only reason I made this is because I'm more impressed by Scourge choking a bunch of guards without a gesture than I am by Maul choking Obi-Wan.
lol.

Some of the folks he choked were Sith.

They sound very impressive.

Scourge could potentially solo tbh.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/6273525-weird+al.gif

It gets better: 6 of the 8 people he killed were Sith. And he wasn't wielding his lightsaber.

https://media.giphy.com/media/tjByMC1mEbBbq/giphy.gif

What Meetra Surik is this? Drew's shitty version or KotOR's?

It depends on which you think is more powerful (for pretty much everyone, KotOR II).

If it's KotOR's. She should be able to win this match. She was strengthening her connection to the Force by instinctively feeding upon the deaths of all those whom she and her companion have slain(I think she reached to Traya's level of power or MAYBE higher).

Kotor II Exile would also solo Maul. Beating Malachor Kreia > beating Obi-Wan (by which I mean losing constantly to), considering some of Kreia's feats like slaughtering a dozen (plus?) Sith just by walking past them. Kotor II Exile would also be capable of replicating Maul's lightsaber form mid-battle. Maul is hopelessly outgunned here.

Maul one-shots

Remind me again, why does Drew hate Meetra? She should have had babies with Atton Rand. Gimme some Force assassins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kotor II Exile would also solo Maul. Beating Malachor Kreia > beating Obi-Wan (by which I mean losing constantly to), considering some of Kreia's feats like slaughtering a dozen (plus?) Sith just by walking past them. Kotor II Exile would also be capable of replicating Maul's lightsaber form mid-battle. Maul is hopelessly outgunned here.

I forgot that she instinctively learns her opponent's fighting style in a matter of seconds. Could that make her an ambidextrously swordsman practitioner, Neph?

Meetra could solo, with Scourge they certainly win.

Meetra becoming more powerful than Traya, whose spirit was stronger than Darth Baras who was more powerful than Fulminiss prior to having his power boosted by Sel-makor and then draining power from Traya's spirit to become 'nigh indestructible'.

It's becoming ever increasingly more apparent that the likes of Surik and Traya were genuine powerhouses.

Maul, good fight.

How, though?

Surik's more powerful given Traya scaling. She's also one of the three most powerful Jedi who ever lived by SWTOR, alongside Revan and the Hero of Tython.

@AP:

Traya scaling isn't nearly enough to put Surik above Maul, kek.

Gonna need a quote for this.

Traya's both more powerful and masterful than Maul by a decent margin, in fact I'd say in the Trayus Core she's a whole other tier above him. Her spirit is confirmed to be a stronger dark side entity than Sel-makor and a greater source of dark side power than the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas.



As for Surik's own power, Scourge puts her and Revan above all other Jedi:





He has more than enough experience to make the claim:

Geistalt of Gehenna back at it again

Traya on Malachor:

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5471965-7598304148-9DL3z.gif

Maul on Malachor:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111236047/5425592-4642236138-51322.gif

LOL
Or his brilliant showing getting 3 shot by Old Ben
Maul ****ing sucks

Canon Maul dies, yeah.

Legends Maul tools these two pretty easily.

To be fair, the KOTOR II Exile and Meetra are all but different people if one simply looks at their competence. I find it highly likely Drew didn't care to study someone else's character and considering he even sacrificed "his own" character in Revan to the Vitiate wank of that novel, I'd say without reservation that KOTOR II "Meetra" is the more powerful version.

That being said, Maul is a rather inconsistent character and I feel like this comes about from simply being portrayed in multiple forms of media and by different people regardless of who/what the character truly is. IE: It's to be expected.

Operating under the assumption this is Maul as of SoD to give him his best chance, that is all it really is, a chance and to be frank not a very favorable one. If we assume that by "Meetra" this is also the canon LS Exile then by the end of KOTOR II then I don't think the team will slaughter him in sabers given that Meetra would be more inclined to fight defensively and I doubt Scourge's ability to deal a killing blow without more active application of skill from his partner. That being said, the team would eventually win the saber duel as I also find it an impossibility that Maul kills either one of them quickly, he then proceeds to get frustrated as he is oft to do (one of the few things kept truly consistent with the character) and dies via over-extension after a moderately difficult duel if it is kept just to that. It also goes basically without saying that Maul's dueling prowess is > his realized force power and given the power of his two opponents he's not going to be able to use the Force exclusively against one without the other punishing him for it. Basically leaving him in the above described position where as his options and stamina dwindle frustration will set in and Maul will slip up for the loss.

As a little joke here at the end: Likely from tripping over a rock and impaling himself on his own saber or something equally retarded.

Very good breakdown.

Maul has a chance in sabers, a very slim one but it's a chance none the less.

What? Traya's spirit>Sel-Makor? That's retarded, to be frank.

Darth Traya would slaughter Darth Maul, let alone the duo of Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik.

there's a rule that you cant pin a legends character against a canon character?

And you don\t understand a joke.

Maul wins.

@AP:

If we're following your line of reasoning, then Traya should be more powerful than Baras as well given that the Wrath has sensed Baras before and deemed Traya more powerful. Yet her codex entry tells us that she was 'dominated' by Baras into doing his bidding, suggesting that Baras has superior power. So forgive me if I'm not exactly too sure about the validity of the Wrath's judgement of her power.

That's great, but... how does this help her chances against Maul? All this does is put her an unknown distance above nameless, featless, and most likely fodder Jedi.

Originally posted by slayne
That's great, but... how does this help her chances against Maul? All this does is put her an unknown distance above nameless, featless, and most likely fodder Jedi.
Didn't she defeat Darth Traya? She also defeated Darth Sion earlier. So she is legit.

Originally posted by Vixas
To be fair, the KOTOR II Exile and Meetra are all but different people if one simply looks at their competence. I find it highly likely Drew didn't care to study someone else's character and considering he even sacrificed "his own" character in Revan to the Vitiate wank of that novel, I'd say without reservation that KOTOR II "Meetra" is the more powerful version.

That being said, Maul is a rather inconsistent character and I feel like this comes about from simply being portrayed in multiple forms of media and by different people regardless of who/what the character truly is. IE: It's to be expected.

Operating under the assumption this is Maul as of SoD to give him his best chance, that is all it really is, a chance and to be frank not a very favorable one. If we assume that by "Meetra" this is also the canon LS Exile then by the end of KOTOR II then I don't think the team will slaughter him in sabers given that Meetra would be more inclined to fight defensively and I doubt Scourge's ability to deal a killing blow without more active application of skill from his partner. That being said, the team would eventually win the saber duel as I also find it an impossibility that Maul kills either one of them quickly, he then proceeds to get frustrated as he is oft to do (one of the few things kept truly consistent with the character) and dies via over-extension after a moderately difficult duel if it is kept just to that. It also goes basically without saying that Maul's dueling prowess is > his realized force power and given the power of his two opponents he's not going to be able to use the Force exclusively against one without the other punishing him for it. Basically leaving him in the above described position where as his options and stamina dwindle frustration will set in and Maul will slip up for the loss.

As a little joke here at the end: Likely from tripping over a rock and impaling himself on his own saber or something equally retarded.
Some good points there. Credit where due.

However, I am not sure why people are not able to reconcile Meetra Surik with Jedi Exile. After the events of KoTOR II, Surik's wound healed completely and she was again. Whatever benefits her Wound condition conferred on her in KoTOR II, evaporated accordingly.

Secondly, Old Republic sources have mostly promoted Revan as the top dog of his time. Even Chris Avellone have unofficially asserted that Revan was too powerful for even the duo of Darth Traya and Jedi Exile to cope with, in a hypothetical fight.

I wouldn't blame Drew Karpyshyn for depicting the obvious.

The Exile healing her wound doesn't mean she (would)lose her gained power.
It's just that Drew wanted to wank Vitiate to the most powerful Force-user of them all. And, thus, he undermined the KotOR 2's characters' feats. He's just an idiot. And not only Revan novel, even in his best-seller, the Darth Bane Trilogy, Bane never wielded a purple(badass Windu)lightsabre, even, though, the comics did depict him with a purple lightsabre. Or, another instance when in his first comic, Bane wasn't depicted as the Brotherhood of Darkness' reason behind their demise, it was just Kaan's fault and Bane defected or wasn't present there. As a matter of fact, Bane, originally, didn't create the Rule of Two because of his low view on Kaan's order, but because those Sith died, and Bane, being the only Sith, would build a new Sith belief system where only two should exist to take over the galaxy, because too many draw the enemy's attention.

I think, that pre-book, Bane might have been just one of the many members in Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness who shared the same vision with them.
So, the problem is with Drew Karpyshyn.

Mate, would have been better if Bane was in the Brotherhood from the beginning(taken as child). He understands what Kaan does is bad and flees. Then makes a new order, etc. But, nah, Drew wanted something else, someone else.

Originally posted by slayne
@AP:

If we're following your line of reasoning, then Traya should be more powerful than Baras as well given that the Wrath has sensed Baras before and deemed Traya more powerful. Yet her codex entry tells us that she was 'dominated' by Baras into doing his bidding, suggesting that Baras has superior power. So forgive me if I'm not exactly too sure about the validity of the Wrath's judgement of her power.

He bound her spirit with a ritual, of course he dominated her spirit. She was the source of his power.

Originally posted by slayne
That's great, but... how does this help her chances against Maul? All this does is put her an unknown distance above nameless, featless, and most likely fodder Jedi.

https://media.giphy.com/media/sRb7yNtTJAtZS/giphy.gif

How the hell are the likes of Satele Shan, the Barsen'thor, Orgus Din, Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru, Kao Cen Darach, Ven Zallow, Aryn Leneer, and Wyellett fodder?

@AP:

Source?

I'm not calling them fodder. Scourge's judgement only applies to the Jedi he's personally fought, and none of the Jedi you mentioned count among that number. So we're left with Meetra being above the Jedi that Scourge did encounter, and unfortunately for her, that bracket consists entirely of nameless, featless, fodder.

Vowrawn says it.

That's not how it works, only Jedi powerful enough to gain the attention of the Emperor were sent to be killed by Scourge. None of the others were. The only exception might be Barsen'thor, but the First Son appears to be < Scourge, so.

As the Emperor's Wrath its Scourge's job to know the capabilities of the Orders best Jedi.

Given how each individual act of the Barsen'thor takes place prior to the Hero's, we can infer that:

Lord Scourge ~ Act II Hero > Barsen'thor > First Son > the Emperor's Children > Act II Barsen'thor > heavily weakened Barsen'thor > Terrak Morrhage.

@AP:

Quote?

The source which states this is in-universe, and even if it is taken to be true, Maul is still so laughably superior to the Jedi which Meetra scales from that it really doesn't matter if she scales off them or not.

I mean, Scourge was stalemated by a massively pre-prime Act II HoT, someone who prime Maul royally humiliates in anything remotely concerning combat or power. Therefore we know for a fact that every Jedi who was killed by Scourge was below the A2 HoT, and so you're effectively scaling Meetra to an unknown margin above beings who are literal fodder compared to Maul. Doesn't exactly do much for Surik, I must say.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some good points there. Credit where due.

However, I am not sure why people are not able to reconcile Meetra Surik with Jedi Exile. After the events of KoTOR II, Surik's wound healed completely and she was again. Whatever benefits her Wound condition conferred on her in KoTOR II, evaporated accordingly.

Secondly, Old Republic sources have mostly promoted Revan as the top dog of his time. Even Chris Avellone have unofficially asserted that Revan was too powerful for even the duo of Darth Traya and Jedi Exile to cope with, in a hypothetical fight.

I wouldn't blame Drew Karpyshyn for depicting the obvious.

As to your first point Legend, while it's inferred the Exile's status as a wound in the force offers them a unique connection to the Force through others it stands to perfect reason, especially after there are multiple instances of the Exile themselves having forced dialogue options of it, that their connection is not what it used to be. Granted most of these options appear on Paragus when Kreia is mentally guiding the Exile back into feeling the Force and getting used to it and it's natural that after accommodating to this new (weaker and more distant) way of tapping into the Force and becoming more skilled/adept/etc at it that the Exile would stop complaining about it as it began to feel more natural. What I am mainly referring to, though, is not exactly "OMG Exile not stronk enough" in the book but the fact that it's blatantly obvious Drew just didn't care about the character. Meetra just lacks a certain level of competency that other characters, like Revan for example, still seem to maintain from their games. While Meetra honestly seems like some random named Padwan tossed in along with Revan if you look at them just based on the book. Though the worst part of their portrayal is likely how they died, in my opinion, back-stabbed and instantly slain by a character introduced in the very same book that, at the time, people knew relatively little about. (IE: All but a nobody) As one book is a VERY short time time to properly characterize important characters, never mind when you're splitting this spotlight amongst a group of three.

As for Revan, I am aware. I was not attempting to assert that I thought the Exile > Revan. I was only stating that even Revan, who I am aware is/was the top dog of that era until that time, was barely able to put up a fight against Vitiate. Even after all the turmoil, crisis and development the character goes through, along with the Exile in their own game, it all gets canned by some (at the time) newly named mook named Scourge and an Emperor being wanked to the stars.

Originally posted by slayne
I mean, Scourge was stalemated by a massively pre-prime Act II HoT, someone who prime Maul royally humiliates in anything remotely concerning combat or power.
Based on?

HoT had not even left Tython in Act I and Jedi Masters of the time were pointing out that his skills were at par.

Prior to meeting the original Emperor's Wrath, HoT defeated Lord Praven in single combat (who in turn defeated/killed Master Usma - one of the finest warriors of the Jedi Order in its history, during the Sacking of Coruscant event and humbled Jedi Master Bela Kiwiiks in another fight), a Child of the Emperor known as Valis (who ragdolled Kira Carsen), Sith Lord Sadic whose abilities in combat were augmented by cybernetic implants, Darth Angral (among the top dogs of his time and credited for defeating/killing Master Orgus Din) and Emperor-possessed Kira Carsen.

The above are extraordinary accomplishments for a Jedi.

In comparison, Darth Maul defeated/killed Master Jinn. Big deal.

Originally posted by slayne
Therefore we know for a fact that every Jedi who was killed by Scourge was below the A2 HoT, and so you're effectively scaling Meetra to an unknown margin above beings who are literal fodder compared to Maul. Doesn't exactly do much for Surik, I must say.
So?

HoT - by the end of Act II - was the most powerful Jedi in existence, and in a span of generations since Revan.

And Vitiate would regard fodder as threats? News to me.

Beating a child of the emperor is extremely impressive BTW. Even Act III 'Thor had trouble with one of them. The Hero easily beating one in Act I is a fantastic feat imo.

I don't see why Scourge can't solo.

Malgus is far above both though.

Scourge (Emperor's Wrath) is an entirely different beast than Lord Scourge in Revan. Even members of the Dark Council respected his power/prowess at this stage.

That he stalemated the strongest Jedi since Revan in a fight, is indication of his growth in power and experience over the course of years. Bear in mind that he has and benefits conferred by corporeal immortality on his side.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Prior to meeting the original Emperor's Wrath, HoT defeated Lord Praven in single combat (who in turn defeated/killed Master Usma - one of the finest warriors of the Jedi Order in its history, during the Sacking of Coruscant event and humbled Jedi Master Bela Kiwiiks in another fight), a Child of the Emperor known as Valis (who ragdolled Kira Carsen), Sith Lord Sadic whose abilities in combat were augmented by cybernetic implants, Darth Angral (among the top dogs of his time and credited for defeating/killing Master Orgus Din) and Emperor-possessed Kira Carsen.

The above are extraordinary accomplishments for a Jedi.

In comparison, Darth Maul defeated/killed Master Jinn. Big deal.

Big deal indeed, given Qui-Gon's better than anyone you named, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Big deal indeed, given Qui-Gon's better than anyone you named, lol.
Nothing about Master Jinn imply as such.

Qui-Gon is a legendary Jedi Master and one of the most powerful Jedi Knights of all time, one of the most formidable swordsmen during the prime of the Jedi, is reckoned as one of the most skilled swordsmen in the history of the Order, and has humbled Anoon Bondara, who was also one of the best fighters during the prime of the Jedi and was regarded by many in-universe as the best in the Order. He's also said to have "had fought in conflicts all across the galaxy in the span of his life and against odds so great that many others would not have stood a chance". That's better than anything you listed.

Usma is only considered one of the "most famous" Jedi duelists of his time, not one of the best of all time, and his time has comparatively paltry swordsmen to the PT Order. Bela Kiwiiks has nothing to her name (she lost to a pair of no-name Sith), Orgus has nothing to his name except "experience" in fighting Sith, and the person who beat him, Angral, was beaten by Harron Tavus. I have no reason to be particularly impressed by Valis ragdolling Kira or Sadic's cybernetics.

Maul beating Qui-Gon while being injured is well above any of HoT's combat feats, especially up to meeting Scourge. Then Maul betters that on Naboo by holding the upper hand against both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at once. Scourge has got nothing on him.

Originally posted by slayne
@AP:

Quote?



Originally posted by slayne
The source which states this is in-universe, and even if it is taken to be true, Maul is still so laughably superior to the Jedi which Meetra scales from that it really doesn't matter if she scales off them or not.

I mean, Scourge was stalemated by a massively pre-prime Act II HoT, someone who prime Maul royally humiliates in anything remotely concerning combat or power. Therefore we know for a fact that every Jedi who was killed by Scourge was below the A2 HoT, and so you're effectively scaling Meetra to an unknown margin above beings who are literal fodder compared to Maul. Doesn't exactly do much for Surik, I must say.

How the fvck is Maul laughably superior to the Barsen'thor? Are you high?

Where the fvck are you getting the idea that Maul humiliates Act II HoT who scales directly off of the Barsen'thor who defeated the First Son, tanking multiple lightsaber strikes with a lesser Force barrier and then TKing him into a boulder. The First Son, whose power was incomprehensible to the other Children of the Emperor, who are all evidently more powerful than Vivicar. Who was channelling the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters. Yet he still couldn't defeat a Barsen'thor who was on his deathbed after using a fatal shielding technique six times in a row.

Maul's not humiliating anyone.

The Barsen'thor probably ragdolls Maul tbh.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nothing about Master Jinn imply as such.


Read TPM Novel.

Maul low diffs

Originally posted by AncientPower

"Can't it simply break free?"

"She's bound by the chamber, we must free her with our own ritual."
- Wrath and Vowrawn, The Old Republic

Are you a blacksmith, AP? I ask because you're evidently quite proficient at forgery.

https://torcommunity.com/database/mission/17jA0zL/barass+lair/?#tab-comments
https://torcommunity.com/database/npc/3ZzkYwH/lord+draahg/

(The first link is dialogue from the first half of the mission; the second link is dialogue from before and after the Draahg fight.)

Above is a list of all the dialogue featured in Baras' Lair, the quest where you free the Sith Entity and the quest which you're using to wank Surik. Now, if you were to click 'expand all' on every link to see all the dialogue, you would notice through a quick CTRL+F that the "quote" you provided is... nowhere to be found. It does not exist. Unless you can provide evidence in the form of a video (I personally could not find any with your dialogue featured) or link to verify that the dialogue you posted does indeed exist, I have every reason to believe that it was one hundred percent fabricated. I really shouldn't have to fact-check every quote you post in here, so please, for the sake of this debate, cut the dishonesty.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Are you high?
I'd ask you the same question at this point, lol.

The Barsen didn't fight Vivicar amped by hundreds of Jedi, lol. Rewatch the fight. Before he engages the Barsen, he says that the proper rituals "can" be conducted to channel the combined power of the Masters, and that they "will" make him the most powerful Force adept to ever live, signifying that the ritual hadn't been conducted yet and that the Barsen was not fighting Vivicar amped with that kind of power.

As for the other feats, Maul's honestly replicated much better.

^

More importantly; Slayne, Vivicar's ritual was already clearly in effect as if you kill him, all of the masters he's infected die instantaneously.

You're doing no actual arguing, you're just stating that Maul's better without any actual substance to your claim.

Originally posted by slayne
The Barsen didn't fight Vivicar amped by hundreds of Jedi, lol. Rewatch the fight. Before he engages the Barsen, he says that the proper rituals "can" be conducted to channel the combined power of the Masters, and that they "will" make him the most powerful Force adept to ever live, signifying that the ritual hadn't been conducted yet and that the Barsen was not fighting Vivicar amped with that kind of power.

As for the other feats, Maul's honestly replicated much better.

Getting real sick of disproving this.

sjciPHddNok

14.00

"Your power and tactics have gotten you this far, but no further"

"This battle was decided before you stepped aboard."

"What do you mean?"

"My plague isn't just a disease, it siphons power blah blah..."

He describes that his plague lets him siphon power from his victims as the direct explanation for why the battle was "decided before you stepped aboard", meaning that he'd performed that ritual before the Consular even arrived. Which makes sense since he knew she was coming for a fact. Obviously he'd prepare. And yet a half dead Consular still kicks his ass.

Act I weakened 'Thor also has incredible TK feats that could be greater than anything Mauls shown, such as casually smashing through a building-sized blast door:

https://78.media.tumblr.com/987fe392f1ff526beec47ae6dbc1d448/tumblr_mnu9ayeG0s1rbwuv5o2_500.png

And lifting an tossing a bus-sized chump of metal a hundred feet easily:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5IwR52UPB4

4.30

On the way to fight Vivicar you also need to tank an explosion that vaporises a blast door by the way. Its at 9.30 in the first video.

In Act III they also pound their way through an "Impenetrable" Rakatan vault door that a Child of the Emperor considered impossible to break down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq20CHOKX8w

27.25

Originally posted by SunRazer

Maul beating Qui-Gon while being injured is well above any of HoT's combat feats, especially up to meeting Scourge. Then Maul betters that on Naboo by holding the upper hand against both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at once. Scourge has got nothing on him.
I thought it was a stalemate.

Let's make Jinn scaling even better for Maul.

TPM Maul scales off Jinn, TCW Maul scales off Oppress.

Oppress decsively beat Plo Koon who himself out performed Fisto vs a superior version of ventress in comparably unfavorable circumstances.

Kenobi conceded to Fisto's superiority in cestus deception, and AOTC Kenobi had more than ten years to improve from TPM when he was already near Qui-Gon.

In other words, TCW Maul>>>Oppress>>Plo Koon>Fisto>AOTC Kenobi>TPM Kenobi ~ One of the best duelists of all time.

Maul scales over Jinn but then gets trashed by Kanan and 3 shot by Old Ben lmao