Showdown of the Ages - Bartmeister and gang vs Ellimist and friends

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Azronger

ILS
Nice work. Thanks Az.

Azronger
No problemo thumb up

JKBart
quality design thumb up

Azronger
thumb up

Kurk
Originally posted by JKBart
an quality design thumb up
fixed

The Ellimist
When should we expect the opener?

JKBart
like today, tomorrow or monday? i have half of mine done, we were planning to post around this weekend, depends if im going out shooting

FreshestSlice
Are you supposed to tell people about school shootings ahead of time?

The Ellimist
?? He's obviously talking about shooting hoops

FreshestSlice
Bart isn't black. uhuh

Freedon Nadd
Oh my god. No wonder he doesn't improve his debating skills. He licks your King Adases, and you receive it on the other side.

MythLord
wut?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by MythLord
wut?

A(da)ss

MythLord
You're almost as witty as Kbro.

The Ellimist
Nadd and Legend are so un-witty that it takes a certain level of wit to be able to imitate them. It's like it comes full circle.

ILS
Elm, do me and favour and chit chat with me so I can keep all of my posts on page two. It's going to come in 6 parts. Posting soon.

ILS
Is anyone here good at making sigs? I'd love a Krayt themed set up for the coming debate.

The Ellimist
ILS you should 1 v 1 me on something

The Ellimist
It's refreshing that we're largely using "unconventional" characters

The Ellimist
I have some wicked Galen wank that I'm going to have to save until after Ant's post. I suppose I'll just use what we already have.

ILS

ILS

ILS

ILS

ILS

ILS

Jack-Tha-King

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nadd and Legend are so un-witty that it takes a certain level of wit to be able to imitate them. It's like it comes full circle.

The Ellimist
Bartmeister?

Freedon Nadd
Nani, senpai? confused

Azronger
An quality posts so far.

JKBart
My opener will be pretty short, since I prefer to prove a character's superiority by addressing opponent's points. Other than that, I believe Shimrra's superiority is so obvious, expanding isn't really needed - it would be like trying to provide analysis on why Palpatine > Vader. I will do that if others don't find Shimrra stomping on their own.

What I will focus in the beginning shall be the aspect of Shimrra's presumable tactics alongside his team. I strongly believe Shimrra would plan alongside the others for him to go for after the most warrior-type among the enemy. It's incredibly simple. Wyyrlok is the loremaster and an alchemist, the Force expert, Krayt is the balanced one, while Shimrra is the perfect Yuuzhan Vong specimen, warrior all-around. With Yuuzhan Vongs taking honor in a direct head-to-head combat, he will go after the one who seems to be able to give it. Among the three of the opponents it's obviously the armored, Djem So-wielding Ulic, not the robed Mace, nor youngster Galen. Ulic has the biggest warrior vibe, no doubt. I can easily go with Shimrra facing Galen, though. Against Mace - i doubt that, given ILS's post.

My basic point is - Shimrra can stomp either Ulic or Galen. Few seconds are all Shimrra needs to finish the fight.

Shimrra is an opponent on an entirely different level than all of his opponents. He's for all accounts and purpose Yoda level, or microscopically below him. None of the opponents can compare with him, that's all.

Galen Marek is basically Vader level. He is noted to be able to defeat him via exploiting knowledge about his fighting style, and basically having the best set of skills to counter Vader with said knowledge; greater mobility, greater agility. Now, this is the Vader below the version that RotJ Luke was an equal with.

Now Ulic Qel-Droma. How much of his power do you guys attribute to his education in the Dark Side? His best claim to power, equal fight with Exar Kun happened just shortly after his fall, without any real training in the dark arts. I guess the fact how absurdly Exar Kun is below Revan should do the math given amounts of powerscaling occuring later through the Banite line of Sith and their Jedi counterparts in PT time. Going to expand on this depending on the road you take, puting Qel-Droma as the weakest of your team despite how his "warrior aura" will definitely lure Shimrra, who can't sense how little power he has compared to others.

So, as I've said, Galen, who I believe to be superior to Ulic, is a combatant on pre-RotJ Vader, while we have RotJ Luke on par. Okay. And now let's go further. Shimmra fought Luke Skywalker by the end of TUF. That was a heavily tired Luke that just went through his whole citadel, and I know that, but it makes no difference. Even in this weakened state, Luke fought 15 Slayers alongside Jaina and Jacen, and managed to win, just before engaging Shimrra himself. And despite handling most of the Slayers, he... lost to Shimrra. Plain and simple.



I kind of really believe it makes everything over. We have Shimrra dispatching the tired Luke that stomped the Slayers, with Luke winning basically a'la Obi-Wan against Maul in TPM. Shimrra gloats, prolongs the execution, and Luke gets the time for a cheapshot. That's basically game over for me.

Nobody on the battlefield can hope to compete with Shimrra. At all. Shimrra was beating Luke who battled against four Slayers at once.


I can now provide dozens of quotes demonstrating Luke's skill development across the New Jedi Order era and how he is practically guaranteed to be reaching Palpatine levels, while Palpatine shits all over Kun and therefore Ulic. I don't have to do anything to demonstrate that also means shitting on Galen, since RotJ Luke already shat on superior version of Vader before achieving even enough skill to prevent being stomped by Lumiya. But I'll just go with the idea you guys know your stuff and won't be arguing the obvious. Happy to provide you with enlightenment if you don't. smile

You guys may try to argue "but Lightning", the only hope against Shimrra's laughable superiority. However, this line of thought really goes down the toilet. Luke used Emerald Lightning on a Slayer, oneshotting him, yet he didn't even try to do it against Shimrra. Too much pressure? Too little time? Too small distance? In any event, I really believe that Luke, after fighting Yuuzhan Vongs for 4 years, slaughtering them in thousands, really knows better when to use Force Lightning than we do. I'm kind of certain Luke, with all this experience against Yuuzhans and 30 years mastering the Force, really is wiser than JKBart or Ellimist in terms of knowing when it's the time to use the "trump card".

This is how Luke handled Slayer with Lightning, and still refrained from even trying to use it against Shimrra:


This might be because of the fact Force Lightning can be dodged. Luke and Shimrra, being levels above Slayers, Slayers being above Kyp Durron, Kyp Durron being dozens of magnitudes of power above Darth Bane, prime Darth Bane being superior to RoT Bane, prolly says that, when Hetton did this against Bane:


Given Hetton can dodge Lightning, I can't see how Shimrra can't do it against Galen's Lightning or any amulet power coming from Ulic.

That's it. The post is simple, basic as hell, because Shimrra's superiority is equally basic. I suspect a defense will be made, so here I am, waiting with about 50 books to quote, cause I really don't know where to start with stuff that's so obvious.

Azronger
Originally posted by Azronger
An quality posts so far.

Selenial
From personal experience, having Wyyrlok and Krayt on the same team is more detrimental debating wise than their coordination is positive.

Solid opening salvo though. thumb up

FreshestSlice
Krayt and Wyyrlok being discoordinated is intentional. Team 2 needs every advantage they can get. smile

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I have some wicked Galen wank that I'm going to have to save until after Ant's post. I suppose I'll just use what we already have.
I wonder what that could be. roll eyes (sarcastic)

The Ellimist
Don't worry, unlike our conversation from a few days ago it doesn't involve many big words you'll struggle to understand and feel embarrassed watching DarthSkywalker0 grasp it right away smile

DarthAnt66
Harrison wasn't even there.

The Ellimist
He said he got it pretty quickly, presumably after going back and reading it. smile

DarthAnt66
I think he was referring to something else.

The Ellimist
*shrug*

JKBart
bump, we're waiting for you
or u can just concede shimrra solos

JKBart
shimrra solos

The Ellimist
Nah

JKBart
so, seems like shimrra does indeed solo smile

SheGotHerOwn
this one is done, gg

FreshestSlice
Elm and friends got blitzed, lel.

MythLord
wat a cute sig

The Ellimist
Alright, just for fun. smile

Jack himself says that Wyyrlok holds his own against Krayt Reborn. Yet Wyyrlok was still weaker than Vong Krayt, whose powers were "outshone" by Muur:



Now ILS can do as much mental contortion that he wants to pretend that "has powers" really means the ability to summon rakghouls (even though that doesn't factor into the context stated in the next sentence at all) or light up Christmas trees, but the most obvious and reasonable interpretation is that Muur's Force powers are greater than Vong Krayt's, especially given:



Ergo, Wyyrlok is weaker than even a weakened spirit Muur, and Krayt Reborn can't be too far above him given his struggles with him. Even a full powered Muur is far weaker than SF Malak, so by power chains he is fodder to someone on the tier of, say, Mace Windu. Even Ulic is a match for a pre-prime Exar, who was not long from being able to one-shot Nadd's spirit, so it's very difficult to believe that spirit Muur > Ulic = Exar Kun.

You might point to Krayt's battle with Abeloth, but we actually don't have solid proof of Krayt's claim that Reborn > Apocalypse, or context behind Krayt's performance (was he amped? etc.). He had been declining in power for decades and there's no reason to think he was suddenly back to full power again. Now you might say that this is straw grasping until one notices that Krayt's Apocalypse performance is vastly out of proportion to his performance in Legacy. If you buy ILS's interpretation of the fight, he would've oneshotted a sub-Muur level fighter (Wyyrlok) instead of struggling with him.

Furthermore, if you actually buy ILS's interpretation that Krayt was about equal to FotJ Luke, he would be disqualified from the match for being more powerful than Yoda. Instead, ILS has to arbitrarily split the difference by arguing that the conclusion of his own point doesn't actually work but somehow half works and he's just powerful enough to win but not powerful enough to violate the criteria. The problem here is that Mace Windu is basically the absolute strongest character you can get in this fight because by RotS he's only barely below Yoda (probably not at all with vaapad vs. dark siders factored in). So the chances that the calculation of Krayt's power just happens to fall between Mace and Yoda is incredibly small. Indeed, given that dark-sider-drawing Mace Windu can defeat Palpatine, it's very possible that no dark sider can fit the "above Mace but below Yoda" criteria.

We get the same issue with Shimrra. If Shimrra really is Luke tier, he's above Yoda and thus disqualified. If he's not, then where is he? Just exactly above Mace and below Yoda? How convenient. In reality though Shimrra fought a really, really tired Luke who had just gone through a literal army of thousands of Vong, each of which is a match for a good padawan. Bart tries to get around this by saying that Luke was still able to fight seven slayers. Uh...yeah...he does this before he fights Shimrra, so he'd be even more tired by then! Regardless, despite not contesting full-power Luke's abilities I kind of want to see Bart's case so I'll ask for it.

Not that it matters, because Shimrra may be resistant to direct TK but what happens when the ground underneath him caves under or he gets blasted away by 5,000 mph winds? We have Galen Marek, whose fighting style hinges on fantastical offensive Force applications. He's Shimrra's worst nightmare.

What can Galen Marek do? How about powering the hyperdrive of a corvette with Force lightning at the beginning of the story when he was ragdoll territory for Vader? How about bringing down an imperial star destroyer? Do you seriously think Shimrra is getting anywhere near him? Can Wyyrlok touch him in feats? No? Does he have any scaling? Oh? So now we're left with Krayt - when has he ever replicated TFU-tier feats?

That is all.

ILS
If you wanted an ass whooping you only had to ask.

Rockydonovang
damn, did elm solo?

DarthSkywalker0
Krayt Wins.

RealistRacism
So these forums are still barely alive?

Freedon Nadd
Galen just re-directed the falling Star Destroyer - smh

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