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Arguments pls

Sidious oneshots. Most powerful sith quotes include swtor vitiate, plus he has absurd feats in basically every category.

They don't apply at all though, lol.

Sidious doesn't have 13 centuries of his power multiplying at ever-increasing rates after already being made far more powerful than Nihilus by Nathema. That's not even including Ziost.

Sheev has nothing.

Plus all of that was before 3 massive power increases, and while he was weakened and hindered.

It's probably the strongest scaling in the mythos tbfh. Nihilus has godly TK/willpower feats, that he's so far beneath prime Tenebrae is irreconcilable with any Sheev argument you can try to make.

It isn't vague in-universe prose, it's backed up by the facts that:

1.it coincides with Nathema's void being far more overwhelming than Malachor V, Nihilus being a symptom of Malachor V.
2.Tenebrae is literally the void, said void's existence being dependent on his.
3.Kreia herself makes it clear that Nihilus isn't the superpower that Meetra has to worry about. The real superpower is later confirmed to be Vitiate.
4.Vitiate has numerous proclamations stating he's the GOAT of the era. We just don't know when he became that. The novel clarifies that for us.

Understood?

Yes, but that hardly negates the strength of Malachor V which is stated to echo out across space. Nihilus' hunger is symptomatic of his exposure to the planet. It has the same effects on people as he does.

The Nathema Ritual isn't relevant at all, the void of the Force would literally kill anything and absorb it given enough exposure. You had to will yourself to continue existing or be absorbed by the void. The void literally existed as the absence of the Force, which completely negated the Force's will. Or rather, Tenebrae was doing so effortlessly by existing. Ziost's the same.

Tenebrae ceased to be a Sith centuries ago. As he found Valkorion long before the game and perhaps even the novel, assuming his new identity as he shed Sith dogma. Not that any of the Sheev = most powerful quotes are infallible in the first place.

Oh and Sheev being so powerful is because of the imbalance, a feat achieved under circumstamces that render it irrelevant to either Sith involved. That Plagueis was utterly incapable of replicating Tenebrous' power until after said imbalance occurred indicates that Tenebrous was as strong as the Banite line was going to get. Plagueis wouldn't have surpassed him, Sidious wouldn't have either. What's even more condemning for the two is the outright statement that the Son's descent to the dark-side made the Sith more powerful.

So please tell me more about how the imbalance is some extremely impressive feat for Sheev, when it isn't even really true. It's not even true to say it is all him either, given Lucas specifically states Vader is in the equation of the imbalance and it's further arguable that his shift to the light side is what brings back balance to the Force.

When Sheev returns in DE, there's nothing like an imbalance going on, there's no indication that his mere presence shifts the balance. It's almost as if he's not literally causing the imbalance but is one of numerous factors involved.

Sidious murks, yeah.

EDIT: this was before AP's last post

Alright just for the heck of it let's get into this again:

Sidious by AOTC is already the "greatest master of evil ever to use sith power". This pretty indisputably includes Vitiate regardless of whether he's a sith or not. But I guess you could try to claim that this is really talking about political power or swagger or something, even though it explicitly references his dark side abilities.

Then Sidious is the most powerful sith lord in history by as early as TPM, and certainly by RotS. Vitiate is clearly a sith given that he's the Sith Emperor and called a sith by multiple sources.

But let's say you either don't think Vitiate is a sith or believe in "death of the author" or whatever. Well, this doesn't work since the Plagueis novel clearly depicts Plagueis as the most powerful sith who ever lived to his point - the blurb says it, Plagueis and Sidious both note it, the theme clearly portrays it, and the book identifies Vitiate as the Sith Emperor. But maybe you don't buy that either.

Let's talk about unbalancing. The "shrine" quote of yours comes from a source that weirdly mixes canon and legends and if you want to use it, we might as well use the Bane > Vitiate canon/legends hybrid quote as well. Nor can politics explain jack when the key milestones in the unbalancing are directly preceded by moments in the Force, not obvious political events. You can't argue that Sidious had an easier starting position either because Plagueis seems to indicate that the dark side was stronger back in the ancients' days before Plagueis and Sidious tipped the balance, which makes sense given that the Jedi Order had created a light-side bubble themselves. So Sidious and Plagueis, and later Sidious alone, affect a level of unbalance on the cosmic force to a scale far surpassing anything we've seen before them. It's an astronomically more impressive feat than anything Vitiate has done, and your own reasoning is that Vitiate > Nihilus because Nathema > Malachor, yet the unbalancing >>>>> Nathema.

Does it prove Sidious is above Vitiate? I guess not, but it's certainly a very substantial piece of evidence in Sidious's favor, in combination with multiple direct quotes indicating his superiority. Vitiate never demonstrated that scale of power - it's not enough to say "he never tried" because nothing he's actually successfully pulled off comes close. And this is Revan anyway, who is pretty solidly below Vitiate given that it's implied Revan + the entire strike team wouldn't even stand a chance against him. Oh, and Sidious has far better dueling feats.

This is also all assuming that you have a massive enough gap between RotS and Dark Times Sidious that the latter's insane feats (e.g. Byss, Lusankya) can't be used to approximate RotS Sidious's power.

So what does Vitiate (I'm not even focusing on Revan at this point) have to compare? As discussed previously, his scaling over Nihilus also applies to Sidious, and you haven't established that Nathema immediately put him over. What feats does he have to match up to Sidious? Bonus points if they don't involve nexuses or rituals. I suppose you could try to say Ziost, but there's actually no solid proof that spirit Vitiate + Ziost nexus < base Vitiate off-nexus, and even if that were the case Sidious scales substantially above Nihilus anyway.

Sidious one-shots. Not gonna lower myself to making arguments until one of you guys finally proves Failkorion can even beat Plagueis

"Greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power."

If only Tenebrae only used Sith power.

"TPM Sidious = GOAT."

If only this was stated in a Legends source and not a Canon one.

"Vitiate is clearly a Sith."

Yeah, the identity he used to rise to power was. Tenebrae was retconned into having never been an actual Sith at all by the people who actually wrote the story.

"Plagueis is GOAT."

According to a subjective blurb. If you want to rely on theme, the book works against your argument just as easily.

"POD Bane > Vitiate quote."

Yeah, that doesn't really work. Because:

1.It was proven on day one that it literally can't be true.
2.Common fvcking sense.
3.Force and Destiny: Nexus of Power is not the only time in Legends that the shrine is even mentioned. Or does NJO not exist anymore?

"Force imbalance."

Yeah, there are a whole freight train's worth of problems with that argument. Half of which I pointed it out in the last post.

But yeah, Tenebrae's death causing a shockwave through the Force that could knock out telepaths as strong as Satele Shan, as well as literally causing entire planets to exist as deadspots in the Force, which are immediately rejuvenated upon aforementioned death.

Tenebrae's presence in the Force being constantly felt by the Sith for their entire lives, regardless of form or state, shows an immense degree of power. Tenebrae being so vastly above the Dread Masters, whose powers can stretch across space and casually turn entire planets into hellacious hellscapes whilst driving over a trillion incurably insane. The whole fact that Tenebrae has so many feats being done simultaneously on such great scales and against such immense powerhouses as Sel-Makor, Vaylin, Revan and the Dread Masters. That's all more than enough.

Revan defeated Dead Eye Duncan. He stomps

That's an awfully complicated way of saying 'I have no argument'.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes, but that hardly negates the strength of Malachor V which is stated to echo out across space. Nihilus' hunger is symptomatic of his exposure to the planet. It has the same effects on people as he does.

The Nathema Ritual isn't relevant at all, the void of the Force would literally kill anything and absorb it given enough exposure. You had to will yourself to continue existing or be absorbed by the void. The void literally existed as the absence of the Force, which completely negated the Force's will. Or rather, Tenebrae was doing so effortlessly by existing. Ziost's the same.

I don't see your point here. Is it to prove that post-Nathema Vitiate > Nihilus? This doesn't do that at all, because peak Nihilus has grown far past Malachor. Or is your point that Vitiate is more impressive because he could will himself to keep existing? Why wouldn't the same whataboutisms you cast against the unbalancing feat not also apply here? It's not even a proper analogy anyway because the unnatural nature of Nathema (from where Vitiate draws his power and nature) is one of kind and not just degree - Nihilus may have gained less power per planet but he ate way more planets, and the Force isn't necessarily going to say "OK after X planets you're now a void".



OOU sources call him a Sith, he acts as the Sith Emperor, uses Sith power, and leads Sith armies. The fact that he also has another title doesn't preclude him from also being a Sith any more than Palpatine wasn't both Dark Lord of the Sith and Supreme Chancellor.



There are so many of them that it becomes kind of ridiculous to try to ignore them.



So you just established that being able to replicate certain midichlorian feats is an exact measurement of power. Congratulations, now Plagueis >>>>>>>>> Valkorion.

And besides, Plagueis and Sidious both grow far more powerful past the unbalancing feat.



Based on what?



Actually, this is a point in Sidious's favor because that power amp is permanent given that it seemingly doesn't go away when the Son dies. So congrats - Sidious now also has the amp from a Mortis Anchorite.



A lot of the unbalancing happens either before Anakin was born or while he's a child, and the balance gets restored at the point where Sidious dies, not at the point where Vader shifts to the light side (and he is on the light side the entire PT, yet the Force is still unbalanced...). Yes, Vader is part of the equation...because he's the one that kills Palpatine.

Meanwhile, we know that the unbalance can't be from politics because the milestones line up with Force events and not political ones, and we know that they don't have an easier baseline because it's been stated that the dark side was actually stronger in ancient times pre-unbalancing, and the Jedi Order had formed an entire galaxy-wide light side bubble. We also can be fairly sure from Plagueis that at least the initial two major unbalancing efforts were done on sheer exertion of Force power and not fancy rituals (though even as a ritual it would be one of the most impressive ever). Sidious therefore has the ability to affect the cosmic force on a galactic (universal?) level, which is a far grander application of the dark side on a far larger scale than anything Vitiate has ever done - Vitiate spent centuries doing intense rituals on a nexus and all he did was create some thunderstorms and make Dromund Kaas's nexus a little stronger.




Pretty sure it's stated that the balance shifts again when he reveals himself. As he doesn't really want to be identified before that, sure there's an active component to the shroud - that doesn't change the fact that it's a Force feat. Shrouding the dark side is likely less meaningful to him in the context of DE than when he's trying to outmaneuver the Jedi anyway.



Given that he and Plagueis meditating on an island directly cause it to happen, then Sidious alone directly causes it to happen, then his death directly causes it to go away, it's pretty clear that Sidious (and Plagueis) is the direct cause of the imbalance. The possibility that he's using some sort of Force technique doesn't change the fact that he's doing it using his own power, and that it's more impressive than anything Vitiate has done.

-----

Meanwhile, I see no active arguments for Vitiate over Sidious given the latter's direct accolades, cosmic power, overwhelmingly greater combat prowess, and not being that long before two of the most ridiculous feats in Star Wars (Byss and Lusankya).

What is this? Sheev godstomps.

*Both sides use questionable power scaling quotes to form an argument*

This thread is a perfect example of how messy statements can get when you only rely on them.

It's neither. Darth Nihilus being a symptom of a less dangerous and potent effect on the Force than Tenebrae was a manifestation of is one of four indications that support the statement by the narrative that Meetra couldn't imagine a being as powerful as Tenebrae. The point is one of many. Meetra directly compares the severity and makes it clear that Nathema's void > Malachor V's nexus.

What's being made very clear is that what Tenebrae has done is entirely more potent than what Malachor V and Nihilus did. One absorbs the Force energy of everything across the entire planet, rendering colour and even time irrelevant. The others corrupt the Force intensely and twist it to the dark side. The novel goes out of its way to make this clear.

Which is why this is so impressive, Tenebrae drained Nathema and then prevented the Force's attempts to fill that void in the Force. The same thing occurs on Ziost, where it's stated to be the dark-side taken to its greatest extreme. It isn't like Katarr which healed afterwards. They became dead spots in the Force where Tenebrae wholly absorbed their flora and fauna, creating the aforementioned void which could not heal until he ceased to existed, even as a spirit. It's outright and effortless countering of the Force's will.

His being a Sith was retconned, he used the Sith Empire until it was no longer useful and had other motives the entire time. At best you can argue that he maintained an identity as a Sith, but as of the novel and perhaps even earlier, he was no longer a Sith and had reached the apex of knowledge long before this point, to an extent that he'd surpassed all others before him. So you can argue ROTS Sidious > pre-Revan!Vitiate all you like, if you want. Not that it's relevant given his most major power growth occurs after this.

There are numerous sources stating the same thing because he's been around since before I was born. But given Leland Chee states that there's no canonical ranking nor a Sith that they consider the canonically most powerful. All it really means is that Sheev has some pretty great evidence in his favor. You're more than welcome to use them as such, but when the main authority of Legends content for two decades says that it isn't irrefutable, and given he personally debunked the Plagueis blurb, then he seems to have a track record on the matter. It's up for debate.

Er, what? Tenebrous' strength of will is what allowed him to do so. Plagueis outright surrendered to the inevitable will of the Force. But even if that were true..

We have Darth Drears and Darth Scabrous showing their own rather impressive understanding of midichlorians and immortality. Those two being very much mid-tier Sith in the empire. Then we have the Dread Masters, who are so far beyond Drear and Scabrous that they might as well be non-Force sensitive. The Dread Masters displayed incredible mastery over immortality, resurrection, increasing the Force sensitivity of others as well as driving trillions irrepairably insane and turning entire planets into hellacious dark side nexus; the latter two achieved without actually exerting any power.

Given the Dread Masters were insignificant next to even a pre-Ziost Tenebrae, nothing Plagueis has done with midichlorians is special in TOR. Hell, even Sidious said sorcery was the apex of power, not Plagueis' experiments.

It doesn't go away because the events of Mortis didn't stop having an effect on the balance of the Force. But I'm glad to see you seemingly accept that Sheev was perpetually amped by the Son causing his own imbalance.

Here's the issue, the imbalance was caused because Sidious and Plagueis meditated intensely for months, concentrating their power until they united into a single entity. That's immensely more power than anything either one of them weilded normally and I honestly doubt either could replicate themselves, ever.

But no, Lucas specifically states that Anakin destroying the Sith to fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One, includes himself and the Emperor. He's very clear about that.

Tenebrous' achievements being so far beyond Plagueis' capabilities; and Luceno really drove home that Plagueis was getting nowhere in his research, essentially stating it was impossible. Whereas with Tenebrous it was apparently easy. That he needed an imbalance he could never have caused by himself, as well as however many years of further experiments to finally catch up; noting that he only finally replicated and surpassed Tenebrous' greatest feats of will prior to his death. Yeah, the implication that Tenebrous would never be surpassed by Plagueis without that imbalance is very clear. With Sheev it is a lot more ambiguous but I doubt he'd have gotten far more powerful than Tenebrous was without that imbalance.

Meanwhile, we have a bunch of indications that Tenebrae was the source of major dark side power throughout his reign. It's not a big deal in TOR. Tenebrae doesn't care about shifting the balance of the Force, he wants to devour the Force and become a god. Hell, 'balance of the Force' has become a gimmick for a gameplay mechanic that players in recent updates get to fvck around with in-game. Lol.

Tenebrae causing entire planets to become voids in the Force, and his being stated to be capable of fvcking around with the Force's ability to exist or not, is far more impressive than causing it to shift to the dark side. He's literally controlling it at this point.

Apologies for formatting, I'm on mobile.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's neither. Darth Nihilus being a symptom of a less dangerous and potent effect on the Force than Tenebrae was a manifestation of is one of four indications that support the statement by the narrative that Meetra couldn't imagine a being as powerful as Tenebrae. The point is one of many. Meetra directly compares the severity and makes it clear that Nathema's void > Malachor V's nexus.

What's being made very clear is that what Tenebrae has done is entirely more potent than what Malachor V and Nihilus did. One absorbs the Force energy of everything across the entire planet, rendering colour and even time irrelevant. The others corrupt the Force intensely and twist it to the dark side. The novel goes out of its way to make this clear.

Which is why this is so impressive, Tenebrae drained Nathema and then prevented the Force's attempts to fill that void in the Force. The same thing occurs on Ziost, where it's stated to be the dark-side taken to its greatest extreme. It isn't like Katarr which healed afterwards. They became dead spots in the Force where Tenebrae wholly absorbed their flora and fauna, creating the aforementioned void which could not heal until he ceased to existed, even as a spirit. It's outright and effortless countering of the Force's will.


I don't see how this addresses my point, which is that 1) much of Nathema went into extending Vitiate's lifespan, and 2) Nihilus consumes several planets after Malachor, so you cannot compare Malachor to Nathema to prove Vitiate immediately after Nathema is more powerful than Nihilus in his prime.

But again, given that you are employing this exact line of reasoning, we can compare both Nathema and Malachor to Plagueis and Sidious's unbalancing feats, and the latter's are incomparably grander in scope. While Nathema fights the Force's "will" (as lots of things do) on a localized level the same way ysalamiri can, Plagueis and Sidious (and later Sidious himself) not only drastically shift the balance of the cosmic force on a galactic scale but also later pose such a threat that the Force conceives The Chosen One to stop them. Likewise, Sidious does this on his own while we now know Vitiate needed help for Nathema (in addition to the 8000 sith lords), which was itself an elaborate ritual. Ditto for Ziost.



So Palpatine wasn't really the Supreme Chancellor? Just how many Sith Lords do you think there have been that didn't really care about the "Sith code" beyond the extent to which it benefitted them?

Several sources call Vitiate a Sith. It seems pretty clear to me.



I certainly hope you're referencing some sort of more concrete statement by Chee than some 9 am response to one of your various twitter accounts' loaded questions to refute the 22+ published and officially licensed accolades on Sidious's power. I suppose nothing is "irrefutable", but it's pretty overwhelming in the face of no active evidence to the contrary.



So Tenebrous could overpower the cosmic force's will, and by extension post-unbalancing Plagueis did too? Great! And why does it even matter if Plagueis couldn't have surpassed Tenebrous without the unbalancing (based on nothing but your assertion) again?

Of course, Tenebrous himself is astronomically more powerful than his master who was able to penetrate the light-side bubble generated by the collective Jedi Order, so the Banites were already beginning to do things beyond what Vitiate could imagine.



*Citation needed* There is no case for either of them no-selling Darth Sidious's Force lightning at point blank range with no barriers from sheer midichlorian manipulation, or spurring the Force itself to create the literal messiah figure to stop them. Eating someone's heart or whatever isn't a valid comparison. There's no reason to think they knew a thing about manipulating midichlorians.



Yeah, please show me what they did on their own power, and preferably something that TFU Shaak Ti couldn't do.



???



The two major unbalancings of the Force in Plagueis happen exactly after their meditation session and Plagueis's death, the conception of the Chosen One happens exactly during Plagueis's attempts to conceive Anakin, and then the restoration of the balance happens exactly after Palpatine's death. Then I've explained why they weren't operating on an easy baseline either. Were these just bizarre coincidences?



Lmfao what? I'm saying that your own argument is just a feat for Sidious because it's a permanent amp by your own admission.



LMFAO - so you try to wank Vitiate when he has untold decades to prep a massive ritual involving 8000 sith lords and an uber-machine, and the Dread Masters when they're literally using external artifacts with intense prep, but then you try to lowball Sidious and Plagueis for the grandest feat to that point in Star Wars because they have to "meditate intensely" for months?



Um, except Sidious does it himself by the end of TPM...



So what? The unbalance existed before Vader did, so Sidious is clearly the dominant variable.



Thanks for arguing that midichlorian manipulation is a function of power.



Yeah, nexus-ritual-third party aided planetary rituals are clearly comparable to galactic (universal?) unbalances and machinations that cause the creation of Space Jesus.

**** this thread is becoming more of a slaughter than Sidious vs Revan would be mmm

I honestly feel bad.

Seriously though, Ellimist is toying with it at this point.

Just like Sidious will toy with Revan

Nah but AP and I are chill, right AP?

Sorry for not getting around to this, my foreleg was broken. Just gotten home.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
*Both sides use questionable power scaling quotes to form an argument*

This thread is a perfect example of how messy statements can get when you only rely on them.
Absolutely.

@The Ellimist

Per your line-of-thought, Palpatine's strength is such that he retained the Imbalance (of the Force) with his mere existence. In other words, Palpatine is a cosmic level being in terms of strength, right?

Given your line-of-thought, Palpatine would have split atoms, a planet, or reduced Master Yoda to dust with a mere thought; Palpatine should have destroyed the entire Jedi Order with bare hands or something. Yet, we see Palpatine struggling to defeat top-of-the-line Jedi of his era , and he called upon the Clones to eradicate the Jedi Order for him.

I do not recall either Mace Windu or Yoda having Cosmic level impacts at individual capacity. Yet, each was able to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine in a fight. Palpatine was also just as vulnerable to a lightsaber as anybody else in his time.

So the whole 'Balance of the Force' stuff translate into what exactly? Nothing substantial for any character in terms of strength, mind you .

I recall an event in the Legacy era in which the Balance of the Force began to shift due to a Force-user taking a dip in the Pool of Knowledge. And this happened when Luke Skywalker was at his prime and Abeloth was in the picture. So these two behemoths had negligible impact on the Balance of the Force?

Do you even understand the mechanics of the Force as in Living and Cosmic? Do you understand that the balance of the Force have shifted over time due to actions of Force-users and even normal beings throughout the timeline?

Extremely problematic line-of-thought.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Absolutely.

@The Ellimist

Per your line-of-thought, Palpatine's strength is such that he retained the Imbalance (of the Force) with his mere existence. In other words, Palpatine is a cosmic level being in terms of strength, right?

Given your line-of-thought, Palpatine would have split atoms, a planet, or reduced Master Yoda to dust with a mere thought; Palpatine should have destroyed the entire Jedi Order with bare hands or something. Yet, we see Palpatine struggling to defeat top-of-the-line Jedi of his era , and he called upon the Clones to eradicate the Jedi Order for him.

I do not recall either Mace Windu or Yoda having Cosmic level impacts at individual capacity. Yet, each was able to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine in a fight. Palpatine was also just as vulnerable to a lightsaber as anybody else in his time.

So the whole 'Balance of the Force' stuff translate into what exactly? Nothing substantial for any character in terms of strength, mind you .

I recall an event in the Legacy era in which the Balance of the Force began to shift due to a Force-user taking a dip in the Pool of Knowledge. And this happened when Luke Skywalker was at his prime and Abeloth was in the picture. So these two behemoths had negligible impact on the Balance of the Force?

Do you even understand the mechanics of the Force as in Living and Cosmic? Do you understand that the balance of the Force have shifted over time due to actions of Force-users and even normal beings throughout the timeline?

Extremely problematic line-of-thought. This post is beautiful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Absolutely.

@The Ellimist

Per your line-of-thought, Palpatine's strength is such that he retained the Imbalance (of the Force) with his mere existence. In other words, Palpatine is a cosmic level being in terms of strength, right?

Given your line-of-thought, Palpatine would have split atoms, a planet, or reduced Master Yoda to dust with a mere thought; Palpatine should have destroyed the entire Jedi Order with bare hands or something. Yet, we see Palpatine struggling to defeat top-of-the-line Jedi of his era , and he called upon the Clones to eradicate the Jedi Order for him.

I do not recall either Mace Windu or Yoda having Cosmic level impacts at individual capacity. Yet, each was able to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine in a fight. Palpatine was also just as vulnerable to a lightsaber as anybody else in his time.

So the whole 'Balance of the Force' stuff translate into what exactly? Nothing substantial for any character in terms of strength, mind you .

I recall an event in the Legacy era in which the Balance of the Force began to shift due to a Force-user taking a dip in the Pool of Knowledge. And this happened when Luke Skywalker was at his prime and Abeloth was in the picture. So these two behemoths had negligible impact on the Balance of the Force?

Do you even understand the mechanics of the Force as in Living and Cosmic? Do you understand that the balance of the Force have shifted over time due to actions of Force-users and even normal beings throughout the timeline?

Extremely problematic line-of-thought.

Member The Ellimist is on-point here. Palpatine have evolved into omnipotent entity and dominated COSMOS on a scale never seen before. He would annihilate planets with a thought. Have a look:

The most reviled and dangerous entity in the galaxy, Emperor Palpatine used his powers of manipulation to gain control of the cosmos on a scale never seen before. Using his high-ranking political position on Coruscant to garner political power and working insidiously behind the scenes, he systematically eliminated enemies and set ally against ally, ensuring his inevitable rise from Supreme Chancellor to all-powerful Emperor. One of his earliest acts of unspeakable evil was Order 66, aka the Great Jedi Purge, which all but extinguished this noble race.

From (Star Wars: Topps Chrome - Emperor Palpatine)

Originally posted by Azronger

Your making Sidious sound more powerful than Abeloth @Legend.

I think a serious argument can be made for Revan winning here, but at the same time he could also be weaker than Maul and Kenobi, on average I would say Sidious wins via an unknown but clear extent that results in his victory and Revan's defeat.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Your making Sidious sound more powerful than Abeloth @Legend.

Abeloth have nothing on Palpatine.

Originally posted by DarkTransfer69
I think a serious argument can be made for Revan winning here, but at the same time he could also be weaker than Maul and Kenobi, on average I would say Sidious wins via an unknown but clear extent that results in his victory and Revan's defeat.

Seriously now?

To assert that Revan have more power than Palpatine but less than Darth Maul and Obi-Wan Kenobi?

You sir are an absolute RETARD, my friend. Even bigger one than S_W_LeGenD.

And you lost every ounce of respect in my eyes due to this single idiotic point. Well done.

I don't think insulting me is a good way for us to see eye to eye on anything, when you want to come with a real sincere argument, be my guest.

I love this forum

Yeh, this forum is great.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't see how this addresses my point, which is that 1) much of Nathema went into extending Vitiate's lifespan, and 2) Nihilus consumes several planets after Malachor, so you cannot compare Malachor to Nathema to prove Vitiate immediately after Nathema is more powerful than Nihilus in his prime.

Except that's only a singular line of thought that helps cement the statement that Nathema made Tenebrae >> Nihilus.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But again, given that you are employing this exact line of reasoning, we can compare both Nathema and Malachor to Plagueis and Sidious's unbalancing feats, and the latter's are incomparably grander in scope.

Except it isn't fighting the Force's will, it is Tenebrae literally denying its ability to exist across two entire planets. Tenebrae required Zildrog to kill everything, whilst he used a ritual to absorb everything that died. Post-Nathema Tenebrae required no such aid, we know that because as a spirit he was capable of multitasking with his powers to absorb enough energy to restore his power to a degree that he could single-handedly death field the entire planet and then used the same ritual to absorb all of the energy there too.

Shifting the balance of the cosmic Force so heavily it became an imbalance, was achieved by outwilling it after both Sidious and Plagueis channelled their full collective powers for months. Post-Nathema Tenebrae is doing so by himself, by merely existing; even in a spiritual form. He's then repeating the feat in a spiritual form without any aid at all.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So Palpatine wasn't really the Supreme Chancellor? Just how many Sith Lords do you think there have been that didn't really care about the "Sith code" beyond the extent to which it benefitted them?

Several sources call Vitiate a Sith. It seems pretty clear to me.

All of those sources are outdated. His status as a Sith is more like Darth Sidious controlling the seperatists from the shadows. He isn't actually affiliated with them, he controls them through puppets as a means of distracting the galaxy from his new empire and new identity. Infact, his affiliation with the Sith was long since a ruse since long before even Revan:



Originally posted by The Ellimist
I certainly hope you're referencing some sort of more concrete statement by Chee.



Originally posted by The Ellimist
So Tenebrous could overpower the cosmic force's will, and by extension post-unbalancing Plagueis did too? Great! And why does it even matter if Plagueis couldn't have surpassed Tenebrous without the unbalancing (based on nothing but your assertion) again?

Because it goes to show that Tenebrous was the peak of the Banite Sith's potential. Plagueis fully surrenders to the impossibility of replicating Tenebrous' mastery and feats. Plagueis, and eventually Sheev, becoming as powerful as they were, was a consequence of the imbalance. They were capable of achieving feats that were previously impossible.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Of course, Tenebrous himself is astronomically more powerful than his master who was able to penetrate the light-side bubble generated by the collective Jedi Order, so the Banites were already beginning to do things beyond what Vitiate could imagine.

Yeah, they really weren't. The Jedi Order of KotOR through to SWTOR, suffered their own limited abilities due to Tenebrae. Many quotes indicate the dark side had a very strong hold on the galaxy at this time. Then there's his constant control over the living Force. Which I find more impressive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
*Citation needed*

The point isn't that Drear or Scabrous had been particularly great with Midicholorian Manipulation. It's that the indication of their knowledge on the matter bodes very well for the likes of the Dread Masters who were infinitely more powerful and masterful over all aspects of the Force.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, please show me what they did on their own power, and preferably something that TFU Shaak Ti couldn't do.

Shaak Ti influencing a planet of living Force energy stated to be very susceptible to influence by powerful Force-users; as per TFU:CG, is not comparable to turning numerous planets into Oricon-like hellscapes. They've repeatedly shown the ability to resurrect the dead, and outright state that their power makes them immortal, yeah. Their vast powers are absolutely indicative of immense mastery over alchemy, sorcery, immortality and the manipulation of Force potential.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
???

In BoS, Sidious compares Plagueis' mastery over life to Syn's. But he chooses to perfect Syn's alchemy rather than midicholorian manipulation, which Sheev says Plagueis was too focused on.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The two major unbalancings of the Force in Plagueis happen exactly after their meditation session and Plagueis's death, the conception of the Chosen One happens exactly during Plagueis's attempts to conceive Anakin, and then the restoration of the balance happens exactly after Palpatine's death. Then I've explained why they weren't operating on an easy baseline either. Were these just bizarre coincidences?

No, they were not. However, Sheev's initial death may have brought balance (or it's Anakin and the death of the Sith as a whole.) Yet, this proves:

1.His influence on the Force couldn't survive in an incorporeal state, whereas Tenebrae's does.
2.His return in Dark Empire is only stated to make a random side character feel the dark side in the galaxy again. Hardly a cosmic imbalance.

So, do tell me, why is Sheev in by far his strongest incarnation, incapable of returning the imbalance with his mere existence? His far weaker incarnations, per your logic, could. Perhaps it is due to the fact that it's not so dependent on Sheev.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmfao what? I'm saying that your own argument is just a feat for Sidious because it's a permanent amp by your own admission.

Except you've entirely missed the point. Sidious having a permanent amp, which isn't actually what it is, is irrelevant. The Son's descent to the dark-side would've been an infinitely more potent effect on the Force than anything the Sith did. That the Father confirms the Sith grew more powerful because of it is pretty damning evidence that this imbalance had numerous factors. Not just Sheev. Even Plagueis in Book of Sith states that the actual prophecy of the Chosen One is about Mortis entirely, preventing them from 'tearing the universe asunder' as he puts it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
LMFAO -

If Tenebrae's power hadn't grown to an extent that any aid his pre-Nathema incarnations had were now completely irrelevant, you might have a point. Oh and the Dread Masters' collective powers are directly derived from mastering the Phobis Devices. They're indivisibld elements, so you can hardly scream 'external amp!' on them either.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Thanks for arguing that midichlorian manipulation is a function of power.

Willpower is a function of power, that's the point.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, nexus-ritual-third party aided planetary rituals are clearly comparable to galactic (universal?) unbalances and machinations that cause the creation of Space Jesus.

No, but casually showing the Force the finger and telling it where it is allowed to exist or not is. How are you getting the idea that using the context of the Nathema ritual diminishes a post-Nathema Tenebrae?

That post makes me proud to be a part of this forum!

Sidious laughs while Dooku one-shots Revan.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Sidious laughs while Dooku one-shots Revan.

Agreed. My new scaling proves it.

Originally posted by Azronger
Agreed. My new scaling proves it.
'New' scaling? The fact file?

That's not scaling; that's just one quote

Originally posted by Azronger
That's not scaling; that's just one quote
Because you can't use the quote of RotS Dooku > AotC Dooku to scale off of others right? Since I haven't seen you mention anything recently about Dooku apart from that fact file quote, it was a reasonable assumption to make.

What is the scaling.

Shadow Guard scaling, probably.

Shadow guard oneshots Valk

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Shadow Guard scaling, probably.
ffs

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Shadow Guard scaling, probably.

No Shadow Guards this time, sorry.

So are you just busting balls or is there really good Dooku wank coming?

I'm not cheap like that. Dooku wank is real.

lmaoo

Originally posted by Jaggarath
lmaoo This is your most famous quote now.

Why do I feel so much happier when you say that?

lmao is great.

ge