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Every single force wielder from TOTJ confronts Dooku in his hangar on Geonosis. What happens?

Dooku's presence disintegrates them.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Dooku's presence disintegrates them.

Agreed

There are like four who solo him, maybe five.

If we take the SF Malak quote literally then yeah, Dooku stomps everyone without much trouble. If we don't take the SF Malak quote into consideration Dooku dies instantaneously.

Saesee Tiin would ragdoll, nevermind Dooku

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Saesee Tiin would ragdoll, nevermind Dooku

Originally posted by HP Legend
Dooku's presence disintegrates them.

Originally posted by TheMuser
If we take the SF Malak quote literally then yeah, Dooku stomps everyone without much trouble. If we don't take the SF Malak quote into consideration Dooku dies instantaneously.

Kun > Vitiate > Star Forge.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vitiate > Star Forge > Kun.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Originally posted by HP Legend


There are sources saying you're completely wrong.



And we know Kun had already surpassed the Emperor prior to the majority of his power growth:





Fun fact about the holocron is that it's the most powerful of all-time:



Which would include Lord Dramath's holocron.

The fact that Vitiate was a far greater threat than the Star Forge posed, and that Exar Kun was already the strongest dark-sider in the galaxy before the holocron took his power growth rate and gave it a very significant boost. All of this indicates prime Exar Kun > EoMW!Vitiate >> the Star Forge.

Not to mention Kun's collective feats are straight up better than anything Vitiate has until we get to proper SWTOR territory.

(All of which ignores that the quote already directly states Exar Kun > any dark power in the galaxy, including the SF.)

Jesus Christ.

I like how you'd all rather concede that Malak can take Master Luke and Kyp Durron at the same time than concede a singular quote with a dozen interpretations.

Dear Lord.

Got other stuff to do so my response to you in this and the other thread have been postponed.

Expect something by the end of the week rather than today.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Dear Lord.

Got other stuff to do so my response to you in this and the other thread have been postponed.

Expect something by the end of the week rather than today. I ou lent bother if I were you.

bump

Just found out Dooku also used the Dark Holocron (found here):

Originally posted by Geistalt
Just found out Dooku also used the Dark Holocron (found here):


AncientPower: *tries to wank Kun*

entire KMC forum while AncientPower tries to wank Kun:
XdofmoYcJNE

Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force confirmed they weren't the same. Furthermore, Sheev himself confirms that all the Sith holocrons in the Jedi Library were ellaborate forgeries. Welcome to half a decade ago.

The worst part is that you think this is new whilst literally everyone else already knows about this.

Originally posted by AncientPower



I can already see where this is going.



Yeah no. The quote you posted came out before Vitiate's creation so using that as an argument is incredibly disengenuous. Furthermore I love how you readily dismiss the Makak quote as having dozens of interpretations and calling it vague despite the quote you posting being even more vague (not that the Malak quote is actually vague). The word "darkest" could mean a great many things and might not even have anything to do with the Force. In fact OBM already made a thread about why Kun isn't the darkest power in the galaxy (if we take it to mean strength in the Force) which I know you've read and so far have not bothered to debunk.



And? Vitiate made his holocron when he was 10 years old for **** sake. This attempt at scaling is laughable. Congratulations AP you've successfully placed Kun above a 10 year old Vitiate.

This is me going under the assumption that holocron scaling is reliable as well which it isn't given if we took it as legit it would place 10 year old Vitiate above Darth Bane.



Yeah btw this is all going under the premise that Kun is stronger than MW Vitiate which he's not.

As for Kun having better feats that's up for debate but you'd have to succesfully prove Kun isn't below Malak in order for it to be viable.

Sorry AP I know you want Kun to be a top tier alongside Yoda and Sidious but no one sees him that way anymore. You may as well give up and accept his current placement (which isn't even that low anyway).

Originally posted by HP Legend




I can already see where this is going.



Yeah no. The quote you posted came out before Vitiate's creation so using that as an argument is incredibly disengenuous. Furthermore I love how you readily dismiss the Makak quote as having dozens of interpretations and calling it vague despite the quote you posting being even more vague (not that the Malak quote is actually vague). The word "darkest" could mean a great many things and might not even have anything to do with the Force. In fact OBM already made a thread about why Kun isn't the darkest power in the galaxy (if we take it to mean strength in the Force) which I know you've read and so far have not bothered to debunk.

Stop trying to claim retcon by time logic. That's not how it works. It's never been how it works. A quote isn't made any less viable by newer sources unless there is a direct contradiction. Ant's DeAgostini debunk regarding Windu and Revan is the exception, not the rule. I would've thought the Sheevites would remember this argument considering my stance is precisely the one you all took when people made the same argument regarding Sheev's supremacy quotes. What a wonderful selective memory you all have.

Leland Chee has made it emphatically clear that a retcon is the last resort taken, and that only occurs when a direct contradiction is made betwen sources. There is nothing contradicting the source material stating that he's the strongest. Your attemots to dismiss it are completely baseless.

LMFAO. Hold up, so when the Malak quote doesn't even mention the Force, it isn't vague at all. But when Kun's darkest power quote literally clarifies it refers to strength, it's vague. You are actually laughable.

I more than read OBM's argument, and it fell in on itself before it got to a 100 words.

Originally posted by HP Legend
And? Vitiate made his holocron when he was 10 years old for **** sake. This attempt at scaling is laughable. Congratulations AP you've successfully placed Kun above a 10 year old Vitiate.

Tenebrae didn't create it at all, that was Dramath. What Tenebrae did was corrupt the device and transform it into a weapon that could enhance the weilders power and destroy entities. The fact that it was measurable in any way to Tenebrae during his death indicates that the item itself outweighed Tenebrae's own power massively at the time he manipulated it.

Originally posted by HP Legend
This is me going under the assumption that holocron scaling is reliable as well which it isn't given if we took it as legit it would place 10 year old Vitiate above Darth Bane.

I see that line as Tenebrae simply having a far greater natural aptitude for the scope of alchemies/sorceries than Bane had. Bane wasn't weaker than Zannah yet her esoterical abilities dwarfed Bane's.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah btw this is all going under the premise that Kun is stronger than MW Vitiate which he's not.

Exar Kun per this quote was already the most powerful dark-sider in the galaxy at the time. Obtaining the holocron allowed him to fulfil his power growth far faster until he reached full potential. So Prime Exar Kun >> pre-prime Exar Kun > Pre-MW!Vitiate, add to that fact that the relevant Star Forge quote clarifies Vitiate's a far greater threat. Then they essentially overlap and render moot any kind of timeline discrepancies you're attempting to find.

Originally posted by HP Legend
As for Kun having better feats that's up for debate but you'd have to succesfully prove Kun isn't below Malak in order for it to be viable.

No one has proven the quote is absolute. Not even at my invitation. So no, not really.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Sorry AP I know you want Kun to be a top tier alongside Yoda and Sidious but no one sees him that way anymore. You may as well give up and accept his current placement (which isn't even that low anyway).

I don't need to want him when his feats prove he is up there with Yoda.

Who are the 4-5 TOTJ characters that can solo Dooku, AP?

Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ood Bnar(channelling Ossus), Thon and maybe Ulic.

Where is Freedumb these days?

Originally posted by AncientPower



1. Yeah sure normally I don't agree with retcon by time logic but let's look at your argument for a sec:

You're trying to argue that a quote which places Kun above a character that hadn't even been created retcons a previous source that is perfectly clear as to its meaning.

2. This is a faulty comparison as Sheev's supremacy quotes were created to place him as the best regardless of who was created later. He was intended to be the ultimate evil. This quote accidentally puts Kun above Vitiate as the writers had no idea that he was going to be created.

3. I'm not one of the Sheevites lol. What a wonderful non existent memory you have.

Not to mention this quote doesn't even prove Kun>Vitiate as it's meaning is rather vague.



Yeah and in this case there is a contradiction between two sources.

One of them says Malak>Kun and the other said Kun>Vitiate>SF Malak and given this contradiction you would obviously take the source which takes Malak>Kun as when the second source was released Vitiate hadn't been created.

One of them is a direct compairson between 2 characters and the other is a source which accidentally puts Kun above Malak via scaling from a character that hadn't been created at the time of its release.

I wonder which is more reliable...



Where does it say it's referring to strength? Here is the quote:

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

If we were to take the word "darkest" to mean most evil for example it would read like this:

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the most evil power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

As you can blatantly see there isn't anything grammatically incorrect about interpreting it as most evil for example. Just because it says the word strength at the end of the sentence that doesn't mean the word "darkest" was referring to strength.

Meanwhile the Malak quote literally says he has powers far greater than Kun's which is pretty self explanatory as to its meaning. You're trying to look for alternative meanings to a quote that simplistic.

Also the hositlity here is kinda unwarranted and really puts me off from writing responses as I don't really want to waste my time writing a post only to get attacked for it. I mean this forum is kinda dead and I'm trying to give myself something to do and at least give you someone to respond to give literally no one on this forum really wants to discuss anything with you.



You know what I meant when I said he created it.

Also it being able to imprison Tenebrae's spirit doesn't mean its power is comparable to his as its purpose is literally to imprison spirits lmao.

Not to mention all this does is place Kun above a 10 year old Vitiate.



Eh this is fair.



I mean the timeline discrepancies are relevant in this instance given the other evidence. Normally I'd agree we take a quote regardless of when it was made.



Except for Ant.



Yoda>Revan>SF Malak>Kun.

^

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. Yeah sure normally I don't agree with retcon by time logic but let's look at your argument for a sec:

You're trying to argue that a quote which places Kun above a character that hadn't even been created retcons a previous source that is perfectly clear as to its meaning.

Except it isn't 'clear' at all. No one, has been able to prove my assertions false.

Originally posted by HP Legend
2. This is a faulty comparison as Sheev's supremacy quotes were created to place him as the best regardless of who was created later. He was intended to be the ultimate evil. This quote accidentally puts Kun above Vitiate as the writers had no idea that he was going to be created.

Sheev's supremacy quotes are actually the only reason Kun isn't still considered the canonically most powerful Sith too. In fact, one of Kun's greatest quotes already debunks it. TCSWE states this:

Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

And this is meant to mean, he was once the most powerful Sith until Sheev came along. Which completely defecates on Malak who has his own part in the Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by HP Legend
3. I'm not one of the Sheevites lol. What a wonderful non existent memory you have.

Not to mention this quote doesn't even prove Kun>Vitiate as it's meaning is rather vague.

It's the furthest thing from vague.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah and in this case there is a contradiction between two sources.

One of them says Malak>Kun and the other said Kun>Vitiate>SF Malak and given this contradiction you would obviously take the source which takes Malak>Kun as when the second source was released Vitiate hadn't been created.

The release of new characters doesn't exempt them from pre-existing canonical, objective sources. What's worse is I'm still not seeing any argument as to why the Malak quote isn't interpretable.

Originally posted by HP Legend
One of them is a direct compairson between 2 characters and the other is a source which accidentally puts Kun above Malak via scaling from a character that hadn't been created at the time of its release.

In Canon, nothing is an accident unless it gets directly rebutted.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I wonder which is more reliable...

I'd probably go with the original source material as it is supreme.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Where does it say it's referring to strength? Here is the quote:

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

Because the sentence literally explains that he's going to get even stronger in the Force than that via a holocron which happens to be the most powerful in the mythos. It's obviously referring to the Force.

Originally posted by HP Legend
If we were to take the word "darkest" to mean most evil for example it would read like this:

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the most evil power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

As you can blatantly see there isn't anything grammatically incorrect about interpreting it as most evil for example. Just because it says the word strength at the end of the sentence that doesn't mean the word "darkest" was referring to strength.

That's exactly what it's saying, it clearly refers to him getting even more powerful via the hllocron, which Jedi VS. Sith confirms he did.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Meanwhile the Malak quote literally says he has powers far greater than Kun's which is pretty self explanatory as to its meaning. You're trying to look for alternative meanings to a quote that simplistic.

Except it isn't at all, the quote says this:

He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Do you understand that not only does it not refer to the Force anywhere here; in fact it references something else entirely, but the sentence immediately prior makes it redundant via your logic?

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies.

It's a list of things in a biography describing who Malak is. It doesn't make any sense at all reading it the way you are. It's also emphatically clear that Herndon understands that "Force power" and "powers" are very different statements.

What's worse for your argument is that everything to do with the blog is based on translating his abilities from the OG KOTOR into the RPG. One of the most important facets of his character is the plot-point revealed on the Star Forge prior to battling him. He has powers that allow him to feed on corrupted Jedi essences to increase his power as well as draining their life source to renew his own. Herndon can't say this outright because he goes out of his way not to spoil the game. Hence why he doesn't actually reference the Star Forge anywhere.

That's meant to be the major unique character trait for him in the RPG. That's the big secret. That's what gives him far greater powers than Nadd or Kun, he manufactured the Star Forge to allow him to do what he otherwise doesn't have the capability for. Two very difficult variants of Force drain.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I mean the timeline discrepancies are relevant in this instance given the other evidence. Normally I'd agree we take a quote regardless of when it was made.

The "other evidence" is far from the most reliable source. Unless you're okay with Lucien Draay; and everyone in the KotOR era who scales from him, giving prime Vader at the very least a good fight. As well as Bastila Shan; and everyone in KotOR who scales from her, being the equal of Count Dooku and Obi-Wan Kenobi:

While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Except for Ant./B]

He does not debate on the subject, of his own volition.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yoda>Revan>SF Malak>Kun./B]

Exar Kun >> Spirit!Kun > Kyp & Luke > Yoda > Revan > SF!Malak

Will hopefully respond tomorrow though I have an essay to write so I may not get down to it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.



Both quotes refer to gameplay, lol.

I love it when AP gets triggered and does everything xhe can to create a nonsensical argument, or further argue senselessly.

-

Originally posted by Kurll
Both quotes refer to gameplay, lol.

Except literally everything to do with these articles is to do with gameplay. Thanks for that logic, though, not even being sarcastic.

So you admit your quote isn't valid then...?

It means his definition debunks the Malak quote, lol.

I'd be down for the Malak quote being entirely about game play. Dope.

Was Freedon Nadd even a WotC figure?

Originally posted by Geistalt
Was Freedon Nadd even a WotC figure?

Also, I'd like to see AP's quotes that say the holocron Dooku used was a forgery.

Before anyone says anything, I found out Nadd does exist as a miniature, but the quote predates the Star Wars Miniatures series; it existed in 2003, whereas Star Wars Miniatures didn't begin production until 2004.

February holidays so I might get down to a response. However I do have to write CaV posts that should have been done several months ago and write rebuttals to other people as well. Anyway don't be certain to expect anything but I might get a response done.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Also, I'd like to see AP's quotes that say the holocron Dooku used was a forgery.

Sheev's remarks in Jedi Path. I'd have to ask someone tp check it for me as I'm a good four housand miles away from home atm.

It's stated many times (mostly in the Fact Files) that it was indeed the Dark Holocron. Sidious does believe the Jedi's various Sith artifacts are forgeries, but this case is likely the exception, as he is genuinely pleased with Dooku after acquiring the item. And to my knowledge, there's no specific quote about the DH being a fake, just Sidious speaking generally about most of the Sith knowledge available to the Order.

I'll have to go back and look through the relevant Fact Files, but I'm pretty certain the one Dooku obtains is the real deal.

Except the Fact Files are retconned by what Sidious has said. He states categorically that all of them were forgeries. Not just some. What's worse is that Kun completely smashes his holocron, on-panel. Better yet, the Jedi VS. Sith source goes out of its way to say that Dooku and Kun used different holocrons. There's a massive continuity error in the idea that Dooku used a holocron that was blown to pieces by Kun's fist. If we are using Sidious as a reliable source on its authenticity then the fact he makes clear that it's fake is far more believable and comes from a far more recent source on that matter.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Before anyone says anything, I found out Nadd does exist as a miniature, but the quote predates the Star Wars Miniatures series; it existed in 2003, whereas Star Wars Miniatures didn't begin production until 2004.

All of those articles are previews or enhancements of the over-all Star Wars Miniatures RPG series, so that's irrelevant.

Sidious overrides canonical facts with his opinions? It's stated that Dooku found and used it in the Fact Files, New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, Complete Encyclopedia etc. What Sheev thinks is irrelevant (and doesn't contradict the idea of there being exceptions to his statement)

It doesn't matter if Kun smashed it, it was clearly salvaged and later restored. The Essential Guide to the Force is fallible, as you know, since it's from the perspective of historians, Jedi, Sith etc. so that's largely irrelevant. Fact is, we have unbiased, infallible sources stating Dooku stole the legitimate Dark Holocron and studied it.

You can't repair it when all of the spirits with the information were destroyed after possessing the Jedi.

Is that actually stated? It should be the case, but it clearly isn't. We either go by the latest material (stating Dooku has the proper holocron) or the spirits weren't really destroyed and it's information was preserved. There are simply too many sources pointing to this being the real Dark Holocron in the Count's possession.

Could it not be argued that it's the genuine article but with missing knowledge? This would keep in line with the quotes stating 'Most of Kun's knowledge died with him' and fit with the numerous sources stating it's legit.

I mean, can I see the actual quotes before we reach any census?

You would've seen them already, surely... But okay then.

https://i.imgur.com/pFvgKBu.png

https://i.imgur.com/6vVqh4M.png

I can get the Fact File ones if you wish, but that'll take a bit of time.

Those are the only ones I care for.

But yeah no, you can't recover spirits that have been vanquished in the attempts to slay their Jedi masters. Those spirits being the gatekeepers. Not to mention, are entirely free from the holocron they were bound in.

There's a massive contradiction and the statements from Jedi Path and Jedi VS. Sith clearly attempt to rectify this oversight.

Disagreed. The Complete Encyclopedia was created after the Essential Guide to the Force, so it's clearly not a newly realised mistake that they attempted to fix with the more recent material. As for the Jedi Path quote, I haven't been able to find it. I know a statement like that exists, but I'm positive it's not in that material.

TCSWE is absolutely riddled with inconsistent statements against the rest of continuity.

Originally posted by TheMuser
I'd be down for the Malak quote being entirely about game play. Dope.

^

Wait, it's only about game play? Why tf didn't AP lead with this from the start?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/541310804448772119/543806450976161832/2019-02-09.png

lmao it's likely also gameplay

Originally posted by bdsmbdsm
Wait, it's only about game play? Why tf didn't AP lead with this from the start?

https://66-media-tumblr-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1200/s/66.media.tumblr.com/4b10907573e150d4ca2f663efee215a0/tumblr_p7fl5kupLV1ui66txo2_540.gif

When you were looking through all possible explanations, this didn't strike you as the most obvious...? Okay then.

This is seriously the most autistic thread ever. This kinda makes me want to respond to AP in all honesty.

Chill out billy big bollocks no need to go ham