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I have read a little of these pages and so far it seems like everyone was in love with the film.

Please dont get me wrong as i thought it was great, but i felt the fight scenes were so bad and really ruined it for me somewhat. I have read one person say the choreography in the fight scenes was amazing, No offence, but thats complete rubbish.

The fighting was like something out of jerry springer, where they would just shake the camera so much and show close ups so you cant actually see whats going on.

Why oh why was this made to be a 12A (UK rating). For this alone it meant that the fighting wasnt as good as it should have been, i completely blame them for this as all they care about is reaching a larger audience to make more money. For those of you that think this is definately better than Tim Burton's batmans i think you need to watch them again. This film is just fresh and surprisingly good, especially when compared to the 3rd and 4th ones made so this is seriously clouding a lot of peoples judgement.

Does anyone agree with me? As i would be intersted in hearing peoples views.

Thanks.

I think the fights were done like that because if you clearly show Batman fighting twelve guys and once (or whatever), it would end up looking like something from a Jackie Chan movie.

Originally posted by Gregory
I think the fights were done like that because if you clearly show Batman fighting twelve guys and once (or whatever), it would end up looking like something from a Jackie Chan movie.

Exactly...

a previous post i made...

Originally posted by JustVisiting
I have read a little of these pages and so far it seems like everyone was in love with the film.

Please dont get me wrong as i thought it was great, but i felt the fight scenes were so bad and really ruined it for me somewhat. I have read one person say the choreography in the fight scenes was amazing, No offence, but thats complete rubbish.

The fighting was like something out of jerry springer, where they would just shake the camera so much and show close ups so you cant actually see whats going on.

Why oh why was this made to be a 12A (UK rating). For this alone it meant that the fighting wasnt as good as it should have been, i completely blame them for this as all they care about is reaching a larger audience to make more money. For those of you that think this is definately better than Tim Burton's batmans i think you need to watch them again. This film is just fresh and surprisingly good, especially when compared to the 3rd and 4th ones made so this is seriously clouding a lot of peoples judgement.

Does anyone agree with me? As i would be intersted in hearing peoples views.

Thanks. I agree. I didn't mind his quick and hard to see fights vs common thugs(much), but when fighting fellow ninjas (like @ the end of the movie) I expect to see way better than what we got. The only good thing about these fight scenes is that they leave room for improvement in the next film along with Bale's "Bat-voice". Good movie though.

The camera angles on some of the fights were awful.

The fights represented an extremely tight style, which would work, but it was edited together in a sort of hack-job fashion. I didn't notice any shakyness, just lots of unrealistically short cuts.

i actually agree the fight scenes were all so dissapointing...I mean I get what you guys are saying but damn...batman's also supposed to be one of the best fighters in the dcu I wanted to see how he threw down on screen...and I mean christian bale can do fight scenes (i.e. equilibrium), hell they coulda just put a really good fighting stunt man in a bat suit too..... so I dunno...I was just dissapointed...

i currently want to make a lil five minute batman vs. movie clip...I just gotta get a costume together and some friends who don't mind getting a lil beat up....lol.

I thought the fight scenes were perfectly fine. The film was aiming for a more realistic approach and having Batman pefrom Jet Lee type feats would only diminish what they had worked so hard to build.

I believe that the Montreal Film Journal said it best:

"Indeed, the fights can be disorienting, but I think they're supposed to be. As Neeson's character says early on, "This is not a dance!" Batman doesn't indulge in extended gracefully choreographed matches, he stands in the shadows, swoops down to strike then vanishes, only to reappear in another dark corner and continue his Shock and Awe attack. This the way of the Ninja!"

LINK

hm.....good point prophet.....and there is one scene where falcone comes into the alley and you clearly see the fight from his point of view. all he sees is this black fury in the middle of a crowd of guys and can't make anything out....

I just got back from seeing the movie again, and tried to pay more attention in the fight scenes. I made out a little more, but.....not much. that first appearance of his, though........frigging fabulous. there's a choked off scream and a loud crunch, and someone just vanishes. it's jaws, I tell ya, jaws.

Yeah, the fight scenes were flawless IMO

way too hectic for me...I like my fight scenes like the ones in ong bak...where you actually see what's happening...I thought I was gonna have a seizure...

Yeah, I admit it was really cool how they made him look like a kind of living shadow that was all over the place, but they could have just done that at the beginning and used easier to see fight scenes for the rest of the film. IMO one of the worst things you can do in a movie is confuse the audience.

yeah the fight scenes in the movie had horrible angles when it was a gang fight. But the sword fights and real important fights were shot fine.

I believe they were shot that way to give you, the viewer, the feeling of what it would be like to be in the middle of Batman coming at you and beating you down. It would be utter chaos! And very disorienting not to mention intense. I've seen the film 3 times and each time I appreciate that fact. I sure wouldn't want Bats to come after me!

Remember, this is supposed to feel realistic and a Matrix or Kung fu look to the fights would be to choreographed to effectively give it that feel. Plus. Ra's tells him when he first gets to the temple (talking Neeson here) when Bruce goes after him that "This is not a dance".

I think Kieralinn's post and my previous post should make it clear that the fight scenes in Batman Begins werent' actually terrible if you understand the reasoning behind the director's choice in style, camera angles, choreography, etc.

Originally posted by Kieralinn
I believe they were shot that way to give you, the viewer, the feeling of what it would be like to be in the middle of Batman coming at you and beating you down. It would be utter chaos! And very disorienting not to mention intense. I've seen the film 3 times and each time I appreciate that fact. I sure wouldn't want Bats to come after me!

Remember, this is supposed to feel realistic and a Matrix or Kung fu look to the fights would be to choreographed to effectively give it that feel. Plus. Ra's tells him when he first gets to the temple (talking Neeson here) when Bruce goes after him that "This is not a dance".


I thought the fight scenes were perfectly fine. The film was aiming for a more realistic approach and having Batman perform Jet Lee type feats would only diminish what they had worked so hard to build.

I believe that the Montreal Film Journal said it best:

"Indeed, the fights can be disorienting, but I think they're supposed to be. As Neeson's character says early on, "This is not a dance!" Batman doesn't indulge in extended gracefully choreographed matches, he stands in the shadows, swoops down to strike then vanishes, only to reappear in another dark corner and continue his Shock and Awe attack. This the way of the Ninja!"

I agree that the fast cuts and camera angles are confusing, but it really works in this film. I think that a scene where we are shown all of bats moves could have worked fine as well. so long as there are no wires and they stay true to batman's skills.

Some interesting points have been made, thanks.

Maybe some of you are right in what you say about it not meaning to be "a dance". However i still cant help thinking the major reason behind it was to give it a lower rating. Which in my opinion isnt right. Also, the fight at the very start is a good example as this for me was still too close up and confusing... even though it was before his training.

I completely understand if he wanted to give the effect some of you have mentioned, but it was not nessessary here and also why do it when some very good fighting could have been done, especially when fighting many people at once. He should have just stuck to it for a couple of scenes where he was being very stealthy.

Originally posted by JustVisiting
Maybe some of you are right in what you say about it not meaning to be "a dance". However i still cant help thinking the major reason behind it was to give it a lower rating. Which in my opinion isnt right.

I seriously doubt that, the only way the rating could have been raised is if Batman straight out killed someone or slit their throat. Kicking and punching from another angle would not have included much blood or gore so I see very little to support your claims.

I'm sorry, but I'm getting tired of people making excuses for these fight scenes in this movie.

Yeah, yeah... you can say that a Matrix/Jet Li type fight scene would not be suitable for a Batman movie. I agree with that. BUT it did not HAVE to be that type of fighting scene for it to be better than what it was. It would have been possible to make fights where he fought more than one guy and show what it would be like to fight Batman without it not look like something out of a Jackie Chan movie.

They were NOT perfectly done in my opinion, but they were just forgivable because it would have been very difficult to do and the movie was so good.

In this post-Matrix/post-Star Wars world, people seem to expect wonderfully choreographed fights, which I think would be incredibly innapropriate.

Have any of you ever been in a real fight? A real fight is like that. Sometimes you think yopu are in control but there are always a few moments of absolute confusion. Even if you have skill in martial arts, most real fights descend into brawls. Batman is a close range fighter, and if you were having a fight with someone like Batman, that is pretty much ALL you'd ever see. A flurry of fists, kicks and headbutts and your down, mate.

Also, the fact you couldn't see an awful lot of Batman's motions made him even more intimidating. Your mind fills in the blanks. I loved that. He'd just appear, kick ass then go. Nuff said.

Ninja and Samurai don't fight like in the movies. They are controlled, yet brutal, just like how Batman was portrayed. Real Samurai fights barely last three clashes of the swords, while Ninja are deadly efficient at taking out even alarmed enemies.

Batman's weapon was confusion. The aim of the fights was to elevate that confusion.

I'm so glad we got to see the brutality and confusion of a real fight, as opposed to a post-Matrix ballet dance, with the protagonists flip-flopping and the edits seamlessly flowing. I didn't want to see that.

I wanted Batman to be a guy you do not even want to start a fight with, and even if you do, he usually finishes it before it even starts. It worked.

The same people who are complaining about the fights would probably complain if we had kung-fu type scenes instead, saying "It doesn't suit Batman" and so on. Some people are just born to whine.

batman's always been capible of superb and extraordinary h2h combat techniques they should have showcased this...all we got was some flashed here and there and then all of the sudden everyone was KOed except batman...make up all the excuses you want...the fights still sucked...

also..a good fight scene does not need to look like ballet...ong bak is a perfect example of this....but for the purposes of a movie which is for all intents to entertain the audenience should have been treated to something better than what we got, which was just hectic...

Yeah but you missed the point of what I was saying. It's supposed to look hectic. The point of view was done, a lot of the time, from the criminals point of view. We saw what they saw - sounds, shadows, screams of others, and a big dude in a suit coming out of nowhere, seemingly flying, and KO-ing the shit out of everyone like a ninja.

And ong bak is the perfect example of how Batman SHOULD NOT be done.

I'll say this again. The fight scenes do not have to be Matrix-style to be better fight scenes than what this movie gave us.

You can still have a martial arts-based fight scene without it being a Matrix-esque fight.

Don't get me wrong I actually didn't think they were terrible, in fact I thought they worked well with the pace of the movie, but I'm just getting tired of the "matrix" excuse.

Like I said earlier, it is forgivable but ...

...just because a "Matrix-style" fight scene isn't suitable for a batman movie, doesn't mean that the fight scenes couldn't have been better. There are other ways to go besides the Matrix/Crouching Tiger Hiden Dragon effect.

Yeah I totally see your point. I just have to disagree with it, because I enjoyed it.

Oh well, I gave my reasons, you gave yours, we can see eye to eye on this so lets just agree to disagree I guess.

But I also enjoyed the movie. And I can see your point about the fight scenes being "how a Batman fight would really be."

I do not disagree with you on that. In fact alot of your post at the top of the page makes me respect the fight scenes a little more.

I'm just tired of hearing the "Matrix" excuse.

(Sometimes I'm too harsh of a critic.)

Ol' Jinny and others are spot on with their assessment. Seriously, didn't anyone else want to know how Batman got a bruise as big as my grandma on his arm? Obviously there was a lot going on during the fights that we were just teased about.

I don't expect a matrix style or jackie chan fight either. I was thinking more along the lines of quick but destructive hits, that result in an arm being snapped and other ramifications that result in the bad guys being incapacitated.

I also thought it was funny how Batman was trained in the deadly art of the assassin. Ninjitsu with all its kill moves. Then all of a sudden he is surprised when he actually has to kill someone.

If they were just going to add all the shaky blurry crap to make Batman look like a shadow then they could have accomplished the same effect by just having Batman descend on the men and then cutting to a scene with a pile of guys behind Batman as he walks away. That would have been better than the nausea inducing fight scenes that caused everyone in the theater to squint to see what was happening only to realize they couldn't see what was happening anyway.

Has anyone played Metal Gear Solid 3?

There are cutscenes in that (motion captured) where a couple of characters fight (I'm thinking of the fights between Boss and Snake), where we see a few cool, clunky moves that have a brutal impact, but are also clearly visible. I'm kinda thinking that a few shots like these would have gone a long way as to please everyone, or more. I guess the constant up close shots are an acquired taste.

I find it hard to criticise Begins. It was such a damn near perfect film I couldn't help but sit back in awe at how much they resurrected Batman's franchise from the ashes and this time it was stronger than ever.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Yeah but you missed the point of what I was saying. It's supposed to look hectic. The point of view was done, a lot of the time, from the criminals point of view. We saw what they saw - sounds, shadows, screams of others, and a big dude in a suit coming out of nowhere, seemingly flying, and KO-ing the shit out of everyone like a ninja.

And ong bak is the perfect example of how Batman SHOULD NOT be done.

no I didn't miss your point whatsoever..I simply disagree with you.... like someone pointed out earlier...they should have made the fight scene hectic when batman first decends on those guys at the shipping dock... it would have been effective...we would have got the point.... and the movie would have been done with it....

but when batman's facing off against 4 ninjas...you just know something really kickass is about to go down....all the sudden the fight scenes over batman's still standing and we don't even know how it happened....

it sucked plain and simple...the job of a box office movie like this-to make money/ and entertain...fight scenes in action flicks, ESPECIALLY super hero movies are for the ultimate purpose of entertainment.....I loved the movie overall (the thankjebustheyfinallygotitright batman movie imo) but they failed in that respect....

you however missed what I was getting at by the ong bak thing...batman's hits should be destructive, look painful and impressive, and knock people the **** out in one or two blows...batman's a superhero who doesn't have the luxery of being super per say....when we are served a scene that omits to the audience what he does well in physical confrontations (being h2h combat) it's like seing a super hero movie where you never get to see your hero's power...it was a bad choice to use the meathod they did ALL THROUGHOUT the film...once? okay...twice? I can still live with it ...thrice? uh-oh..... four times with ninjas? DAMMIT we got cheated!

i agree with dawsey it doesn't have to be ballet to be entertaining...the fighting style bale had in equilibrium would have been perfect...intense, vicious, and to the point...

You should all listen to Red Superfly, he has explained perfectly why and why not the fight scenes were done the way they were. It seems that I, Superfly, Kieralinn, and others have merely found ourselves repeating ourselves to individuals who don't seem to understand the basis of it all.

to be perfectly honest...I don't think you guys understand...this is a thread that was made to gripe about how the batman fight scenes sucked.....whether or not they did is subjective to the audience member in question...whether or not the batman fight scenes were supposed to be the way they are isn't the issue here... (i don't think they would have put those scenes into the movie by accident or anything)...so it really doesn't matter what the justification of the scenes being the way they are...is....the issue is that to a certain amount of people the fight scenes sucked plain and simple...you can try and justify it all you want...but to the people that think the fights sucked...justification won't alter opinion on the quality of the scenes presented....

I was simply trying to justify why I thought the fights DIDN'T SUCK, because I don't think they suck. That's all. I'm sure we can all get along and have a decent converstaion about this, without resorting to geek-level intolerance and ignorance.

You are right, it merely comes down to whether people think they suck, or don't suck. At least you have decent reasons.

At least you're not one of those people who say "OMG Teh fights sux0rz cos teh is no kick-ass moovs like teh Matricks", because that makes me become the thing I hate the most, a raving geek with a penchant for murder.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
I was simply trying to justify why I thought the fights DIDN'T SUCK, because I don't think they suck. That's all. I'm sure we can all get along and have a decent converstaion about this, without resorting to geek-level intolerance and ignorance.

You are right, it merely comes down to whether people think they suck, or don't suck. At least you have decent reasons.

At least you're not one of those people who say "OMG Teh fights sux0rz cos teh is no kick-ass moovs like teh Matricks", because that makes me become the thing I hate the most, a raving geek with a penchant for murder.

lol...well i'm no where near losing my cool over this...like I said, opinions revolving around what's good and bad is subjective...no reason to get all bent out of shape because we share different viewpoints...

Originally posted by jinzin
you can try and justify it all you want...but to the people that think the fights sucked...justification won't alter opinion on the quality of the scenes presented....

I suppose there is no use in explaining the subject on my part any further.....

no.....no there isn't.....

Yes I agree.

Fights didn't suck though. :P

*Oh yes they did!*

Oh no they didn't!

*Oh yes they did!*

etc

etc

etc















Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......................

*crashes into tree due to being asleep at the wheel*

Remember kids, don't drive while tired, or Satan will crash your car.

......wow..... that was...............odd................?

This thread seems to have ended where it started.....

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......................

*crashes into tree due to being asleep at the wheel*

Remember kids, don't drive while tired, or Satan will crash your car.

Like this!

http://zozipin.free.fr/emoticons/smileys/drive.gif

Yeah sorry about that. I'm really tired at the moment, so I start to ramble when I'm tired. So very tired...............tired..........











Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...............................

*crashes into tree due to being asleep at the wheel*




*dies*

Originally posted by TheFilmProphet
You should all listen to Red Superfly, he has explained perfectly why and why not the fight scenes were done the way they were. It seems that I, Superfly, Kieralinn, and others have merely found ourselves repeating ourselves to individuals who don't seem to understand the basis of it all.

I understand what you guys are saying.

But I personally believe that could have been accomplished without the hectic camera angles.

It's like some people think the only choice the producer and director had was either go with the fight scenes the movie had or do Matrix-esque fight scenes.

What I'm trying to get across is there are more ways to do fight scenes than those two options.

If this movie truly was intended to let us into the mind of Bruce Wayne, then why was EVERY fight depicted as being from the bad guy's POV? There was only a need to do that in the Batman's first fight, additional fight scenes could have been used to demonstrate the sheer focus required of a human being in a situation in which they are fighting multiple enemies.

Anyway frankly I think that some of the confusion caused by that scene was because of crappy editing. For example, in the first fight scene of the movie I couldn't tell who the hell Wayne was half the time; there was nothing that distinguished Wayne from the crowd, which made things very unclear.

NO! It didn't make it unclear who Wayne was! It made Batman more mysterious!

hehe...aite, i see both sides of the argument.

I for one, was disappointed with the fight scenes. It didn't need to be ballet or Matrix...just look at the first Batman 1989. Sure, it was kinda clunky at times but at least you got to see what he was doing. At Axis Chemicals, you saw the villains running....a shadow flies over, the next thing you know some dude gets a fist in his face. Or the rescuing Vicki Vale scene where that guy fights Batman with the knives. This was PRE-Matrix era and I think they did the fights decently well without resorting to shaky cameras or Crouching Tiger dances.

Take the movie Blade for example (the first one). Nothing too spectacular, but effective choreagraphy...enough to show Wesley Snipes as a badass. If they had just slowed the camera and scene switches for just a tad bit, I'd been satisfied.

Worse fights were any that were in Batman and Robin.

what?! how can u diss the Bat ice skates? Or Alicia Silverstone's brutal fight with Uma Thurman? That was Grade A material, my friend...

If you say so

yeah Batman and Robin did have GOOD fight scenes lol. I mean Mr Freeze thows a Cop 100 feet in the air to get his gun back. That was some good drugs they were smokeing, Oh I mean good fight scenes they were filming.

*laughs*