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Who takes it?

Debate.

Ooooh!!!!

Pain... lots of pain....

Haha

CK is going down. Frank can kill a man without a weapon.
And it doesnt matter if CK knows Kryptian Fu or whatever it is called.
Castle will beat him bad and then rape his ass.

Frank either brakes clark's neck or pushes clark's broken nose into clark's brain. Fight lasts about 6 seconds or less.

you idiots even with no powers clark still has a skin which is 3-4 times denser then human skin.like asgardians.also he should still be able to lift 1-2 tons....becasue krypton had a stronger gravity....and its part of his body's structure.....

Originally posted by colossus17
you idiots even with no powers clark still has a skin which is 3-4 times denser then human skin.like asgardians.also he should still be able to lift 1-2 tons....becasue krypton had a stronger gravity....and its part of his body's structure.....
Can you prove it?

So basically, without his powers, he's like Tombstone, but he's a boyscout that has to adjust to feeling pain, thinking, healing and reacting much more slowly than usual.

Frank would pwned him. One good kick to the nuts and Clark feels a pain he's never felt before, and Frank can exert enough force to break a powerless Kal El's neck. Batman manages to toss Supes around on occasion with his powers, I think Frank can manage to do it sans his powers completely.

Originally posted by K3VIL
Can you prove it?

someone said it a few times on this board....and its been said that even without his powers he should still have enhanced speed and strength....becasue of kryptons gravity....

And so, Superman dies...once again.

This time it is just more painful then the time against Doomsday.

Originally posted by colossus17
you idiots even with no powers clark still has a skin which is 3-4 times denser then human skin.like asgardians.also he should still be able to lift 1-2 tons....becasue krypton had a stronger gravity....and its part of his body's structure..... Then punisher breaks his nose with 5 times the force it would take. (Doesn't take that much force)Kent still dies.

Clark dies.

at the new sig Darkcrawler

It's been stated before that krypton is roughly comparably to the size of jupiter. Now Jupiter's gravity is roughly 2.5 times earth norm. For example I weigh approximately 165 lbs on jupiter I would weigh roughly 417. Now If his strength levels are the equivalent to an earth human he should be quite a bit stronger. Clark is a large individual a human of that weight and tone would be lifting 400-500 lbs. But he is more dense than a normal person so he should be able to lift over 1300 lbs. This is all theory but it makes some sense.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Clark dies.

at the new sig Darkcrawler

Thanks.

Originally posted by ChaoticReign
It's been stated before that krypton is roughly comparably to the size of jupiter. Now Jupiter's gravity is roughly 2.5 times earth norm. For example I weigh approximately 165 lbs on jupiter I would weigh roughly 417. Now If his strength levels are the equivalent to an earth human he should be quite a bit stronger. Clark is a large individual a human of that weight and tone would be lifting 400-500 lbs. But he is more dense than a normal person so he should be able to lift over 1300 lbs. This is all theory but it makes some sense. Then it's like Frank fighting the Kingpin with less skill. Frank wins. Yaaaaaaaaaaaay!

You know, did Clark ever go to the army?

I don't think it's as lopsided as it's being made out to be. Superman has over 10,000 years of fighting experience, as well as formal training by people like Mongul, Batman and Wonder Woman. Granted, some of his formal training is in the more effective use of his superpowers, but a lot of that is just hand-to-hand combat. If held true to form, Clark should be a mighty hand-to-hand combatant with or without powers.

I'll break with the pact and say Clark takes this. He's not just a noob with godly powers...he's a warrior in every sense of the word.

ha....10,000 years?????also clark hardly ever uses skills or h2h he just uses his strength......and speed.....but he does have one of the strongest wills........

I guess I don't know Supes like I thought I did. How does he have 10,000 years fighting experience and who was he fighting?

Yeah, 10,000 years. It was during a storyline where he helped Wonder Woman fight some war that lasted 10,000 years. It was nothing but battle after battle. At the end of the battle, he was returned to the precise point in time he was taken. Lois noticed there was something a bit different about him...more age in his eyes, but that's about it.

You'd figure that 10,000 years of combat should surpass 10 or so years by Frank, even if Frank did have formal training. Formal training in the end pales in comparison to perrsonal experience...it's personal

But that was him fighting w/his god-like power. Flying and shooting beams out your eyes and s**t like that.

People will always refuse to accept a victory against Superman thats why his threads go on so long

Well, like I said before, I'm sure much of it is the use of super powers, but even with superpowers you can't survive a 10,000 year war with forces as powerful or more powerful than you are unless you have some well thought out battle techniques. And after 10,000 years it's almost a sure bet that Superman trained in H2H with Wonder Woman. We're talking about 10,000 years with one of the greatest H2H combatants in a constant war zone...that's more up close battle experience than 1,000 Punishers.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
People will always refuse to accept a victory against Superman thats why his threads go on so long

hahaha...I do believe I've been accused of being a Superman fanboy! Go through my responses to all the other Superman threads and then come back and still see if that's true...

lol no I've seen you vehemently on the against Superman side in threads I just mean people in general.

True...but I'm not one of those people but I still say that Superman is being underrated on this thread, especially when you compare it to the responses on the WW vs. Punisher thread.

Superman beat Zod using very impressive H2H techniques that he specifically said he learned from WW and Batman. Zod, like Punisher, a military man with formal millitary training...and a lot more of it than Punisher. That's why I say his H2H is underrated.

Thing is the thread implies that he's thrown into a fight without powers with Punisher. It doesn't say anything about him having time to acclimate to his new condition which would be a huge advantage to Punisher.

Supes sans powers has too much adjusting to do in combat. The adjustments to feeling pain, slower reflexes, slower thought processing (due to his metabolism being so much slower minus his metaprotein), he'd be at a disadvantage.

Frank would own Clark Kent.

Also, battle experience will only get you so far. Even Achilles fell to a relative rookie. 10,000 years in a time chamber using your super powers doesn't prepare you for fighting in a powerless, mortal state against a seasoned remorseless killer.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Thing is the thread implies that he's thrown into a fight without powers with Punisher. It doesn't say anything about him having time to acclimate to his new condition which would be a huge advantage to Punisher.

Ah, now THAT is think is a valid point. You and Ill (I think) mentioned that Superman would have to get used to pains he'd never felt before. That's definitely something that would work in Punisher's favor. But you'd also have to consider that Superman has one of the strongest wills in the business. He was beaten to death before, so he knows a thing or two about pain. I think his will to win will supercede the fact that he'll get hurt a lot easier than ever before.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Supes sans powers has too much adjusting to do in combat. The adjustments to feeling pain, slower reflexes, slower thought processing (due to his metabolism being so much slower minus his metaprotein), he'd be at a disadvantage.

Frank would own Clark Kent.

Also, battle experience will only get you so far. Even Achilles fell to a relative rookie. 10,000 years in a time chamber using your super powers doesn't prepare you for fighting in a powerless, mortal state against a seasoned remorseless killer.
Achilles fell to a rookie?
Maybe you should check the history once more.
Achilles was stubbed in his heel from arrows.Long range, catched on surprise action.
Achilles in battle was not only a top fighter but invulnerable.
Superman fightning for 10'000 years means:
He achieved hth fight skills that will make Frank looking like a newbie.
He achieved experience to what his dead, penance, pain and so on, so with or without powers he'll show the Punisher he's still a Superman.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Supes sans powers has too much adjusting to do in combat. The adjustments to feeling pain, slower reflexes, slower thought processing (due to his metabolism being so much slower minus his metaprotein), he'd be at a disadvantage.

Frank would own Clark Kent.

Also, battle experience will only get you so far. Even Achilles fell to a relative rookie. 10,000 years in a time chamber using your super powers doesn't prepare you for fighting in a powerless, mortal state against a seasoned remorseless killer. I hate when people post my thoughts before I do

Yeah, but when he was beaten to death he didn't feel pain from the onset. His biomatrix absorbed a lot of the early impacts for him. In this scenario, Clark can have the wind knocked out of him or get kicked in the nuts from the jump, and from there Frank just gets dirtier.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Supes sans powers has too much adjusting to do in combat. The adjustments to feeling pain, slower reflexes, slower thought processing (due to his metabolism being so much slower minus his metaprotein), he'd be at a disadvantage.

Frank would own Clark Kent.

Also, battle experience will only get you so far. Even Achilles fell to a relative rookie. 10,000 years in a time chamber using your super powers doesn't prepare you for fighting in a powerless, mortal state against a seasoned remorseless killer.

I think those are fair points, but he's also fighting an opponent a lot slower than the type he's normally used to fighting, so it would be relative. Also remember that Clark has been powerless several times, so he's not a total stranger to the world of mortality.

True, his biomatrix protected him in the beginning, but when the stakes were highest, he was bleeding from every orafice and *definitely* feeling pain but kept fighting. That's damn impressive and shows me that he can deal with the kind of punishment Frank would dish out and pull out a win.

Originally posted by K3VIL
Achilles fell to a rookie?
Maybe you should check the history once more.
Achilles was stubbed in his heel from arrows.Long range, catched on surprise action.
Achilles in battle was not only a top fighter but invulnerable.
Superman fightning for 10'000 years means:
He achieved hth fight skills that will make Frank looking like a newbie.
He achieved experience to what his dead, penance, pain and so on, so with or without powers he'll show the Punisher he's still a Superman.

Yeah, Achilles fell to a rookie.

Depending on what version of the Iliad you read, Prince Alexander (or more commonly, Paris), who had no battle experience whatsoever, shot Achilles in the heel and he died from the wound. This is the same Achilles that ran through batallions of Trojans with archers firing arrows at him from all directions and took out Memnon and Penthesilia the Amazon.

Experience is good, but it doesn't guarantee a victory.

He shot Achilles with a sneak attack. It's basically analogous to Punisher sniping Batman, despite Batman being able to dodge hails of bullets from dozens of mob gunmen. It's not a battle feat by Paris...he just sniped an unprepared Achilles.

There were multiple versions of the Iliad, but in all of them, Homer made it pretty clear that Paris was something of a punk for doing it.

Let's not ignore the fact that Superman has been rendered powerless many times before, so it's not like losing his powers yet again is going to be a completely new experience that will leave him in some helpless state of shock and disorientation.

And even when he is fully powered, he has still felt pain. Combat with other people on his power level certainly has an element of pain. Getting beaten to death by Doomsday was no picnic. Various energy blasts have hurt him.
Superman is no stranger to pain; he just doesn't encounter it while performing mundane activities like we lesser mortals do.

As far as this fight goes, if he doesn't take Frank seriously enough from the beginning, then he'll get his head handed to him. But if he has the right attitude, he could definitely win.

Originally posted by illadelph12
So basically, without his powers, he's like Tombstone, but he's a boyscout that has to adjust to feeling pain, thinking, healing and reacting much more slowly than usual.

Frank would pwned him. One good kick to the nuts and Clark feels a pain he's never felt before, and Frank can exert enough force to break a powerless Kal El's neck. Batman manages to toss Supes around on occasion with his powers, I think Frank can manage to do it sans his powers completely.





read the JLA series "Foreign Bodies"....and Supes will explain to u as he did to Kobra, how hes no stranger to pain. superman's mind in kobra's body is assaulted then beats kobra in batman's body.

Originally posted by demigawd
He shot Achilles with a sneak attack. It's basically analogous to Punisher sniping Batman, despite Batman being able to dodge hails of bullets from dozens of mob gunmen. It's not a battle feat by Paris...he just sniped an unprepared Achilles.

There were multiple versions of the Iliad, but in all of them, Homer made it pretty clear that Paris was something of a punk for doing it.

Agreed.

I was just using it as an example that even the greatest, most 'experienced' of warriors can make a mistake and fall, regardless of how much experience they had. Achilles was the greatest warrior to live, and was 'invulnerable', yet he let his guard down in a combat situation and got killed by someone unworthy to even clean his loincloth.

I'm just saying all the experience in the world won't stop you from becoming a martyr.

Originally posted by Solidus Snake
read the JLA series "Foreign Bodies"....and Supes will explain to u as he did to Kobra, how hes no stranger to pain. superman's mind in kobra's body is assaulted then beats kobra in batman's body.

What are Kobra's powers (because I know Batman's )?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Agreed.

I was just using it as an example that even the greatest, most 'experienced' of warriors can make a mistake and fall, regardless of how much experience they had. Achilles was the greatest warrior to live, and was 'invulnerable', yet he let his guard down in a combat situation and got killed by someone unworthy to even clean his loincloth.

I'm just saying all the experience in the world won't stop you from becoming a martyr.

I agree with that. But that logic wouldn't be applicable to this thread (though it's great for the Batman/Punisher thread) because Superman and Punisher are, according to board rules, aware that they are fighting each other and on even ground. That's where I believe Superman's 10,000 years of experience will overcome the initial discomfort of "mortality" and allow him to stay calm enough to pull out a hard fought win against Punisher.

Yeah, but that's also where Frank's insanity comes into play and he rips Clark's jugular out. All of Batman's training doesn't stop the Joker from being the perfect foil to him. Determination and insanity can compensate for willpower. Frank's taken shotgun blast to the chest, high caliber riot gun rounds (rubber bullets) to the face, baseball bats and bricks to the head and body, hit by speeding vehicles, and kept coming. Frank's no slouch when it comes to will, he does wage a one man war on crime against all odds (both good and bad) and won't let up.

And I still don't see where 10,000 years of utilizing super strength, super speed, heat vision, microscopic vision, a biomatrix forcefield, super immunity and the rest of the Superhero Power Mix #17 Kal El was blessed with will help him in this situation. All the things he did in that time period are not available to him in this scenario.

A 10,000 year war with death and destruction happening all around you has a funny way of toughening you. And Superman wasn't fighting weak people for 10,000 years...he was fighting forces powerful enough to blow him away. Just having super powers isn't enough against that kind of power, you have to have strong training, the ability to fight close quarters, the ability to use stealth, the ability to disarm thousands soldiers with Punisher level training but Wonder Woman level power. That's why he had to train with WW during that war to keep up. He wouldn't have survived if he just flew around shooting people with heat vision. He became a lot more than that - tougher, wilier, more resourceful - those are all things that would help against Punisher.

Vietnam, Korea, and Special Forces missions in South America, Indonesia and the East Indies were no walks in the park either, and Frank didn't have any super powers to fall back upon, just wits and skills. What's 10,000 years to a being that can move at light speeds, process millions of bits of info in a moment, has an ever recycling forcefield, and is also immortal?

Nothing at all.

Frank's got plenty of guile, experience, and killer instinct to take Clark out.

Frank is a cold hearted killer.

Cold blooded.

Clark is not.

One moment of indecision, hesitation, or 'weakness' can be the difference between life and death.

Frank won't hesitate.



Dead Kryptonian.

'Nam? Korea?!? Damn, Frank is an old dude.

those battlefields for a few years at a time pale in comparison to an even larger scale planetary war that lasts 10,000 years. Falling back on superpowers means less when everybody has superpowers. It applies differently, but you still have to use the same guile and skill. Heat vision is analogous to having a rifle, invulnerability is analogous to a bulletproof vest. Strength is matched by the other warriors there. To beat that volume of opponents close or greater than your power levels over that long a period, you HAVE to be a great H2H combatant with an incredible will to survive. There's no other rational way to survive for that long.

I'm not sure what the current origin is (always seems to change), but Superman gained his powers over time. He spent a long time as a regular human, which is how he knows whether he should have "trouble" opening certain jars, or pushing broken down cars. Combine that with his various red sun adventures and he knows how to function as a human.

Ruthlessness is a big factor, but don't expect Clark to go too easy on Frank. He partially snapped Zod II's neck and put a sleeper hold on Mongul. He's definitely got finishing skills.