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Putting myself in the perspective of the Jedi's when they were training, don't you think it's a little strange that some of them specialized in certain form styles, when there is no point to them at all at the time?

Example a) Mace Windu is a form VII specialist, which took it one step further and developed Vapaad right? When he was training and developing that style, who is he training to fight? There are no Siths or Dark force users at the time of his training from padawan to Master. So why would he be training in that style? Wouldn't someone redirect him to another form that is more useful to the Jedi's at the time?

Example b) Dooku, when he was a padawan and later knight and then Jedi master, why was he training in form II? Form II is for combat in saber to saber right? Why would he be training in a saber form to fight other sabers, when there are none to fight, and haven't been for hundreds of years? There are no Sith, or Dark Jedi's at that time are there? So who is he training to fight?

Isn't that kind of like a soldier in the 2005 army training with Muskets, on the off chance that a musket using army will resurface sometime in the future, even though there haven't been any for over a century?

They turned out to be useful of course, but is that kind of just dumb luck that they did?

like the boy scouts...be prepared

I don't read much EU, but could it be that they are trained in multiple forms, and are using their preferred form, or most useful form for the situation?

maybe the jedi trained in the way of saber to saber froms because the realised evil nevers dies while gd lives and the sith are the ultimate evilin theSW galaxy and also there is still the lure of the darkside that can take eve the strongest jedi to the darkside u no train them as a fail safe

those three posts pretty much said it all, especially the second one

If they were just doing it in preperation for the return of the Sith after 1000 years of them being gone, they sure didn't want to accept the Siths return when it did happen. Mace himself, the one with the useless saber form without dark force users to fight, said it himself. "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without our knowledge"...

You would think Windu, having a new use for his so far useless saber form would be happier. You would also think the Jedi's would have sent Windu to figure out the mystery of the Sith, rather then a form III fighter like Qui Gon who had no real advantage over a dark force user like Maul. The conversation should have gone:

Windu: "YEAH BABY, finally my training has paid off. I told all you **** it would come in handy someday. I'll go fuk up the siths Qui Gon, you hang back here and smoke a bowl"

Qui Gon: "We all used to laugh at you in training with your form VII Windu, but it seems the joke is finally on us. Go ahead, go find Maul and take him out."

Yoda: "About your saber form Mace, correct you were. To fuk up the siths Windu will go. Smoke a bowl the rest of us will"

lmfoa omic genius

why do people still learn to light fires by rubbing 2 pieces of wood together?

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL nice story Line there that was totally sweet!

In reply, I can only agree with you that it doesn't make sense, and just say that the Jedi are crazy. I mean come on they are pot heads

Once again nice dialogue!!!

I take it back... I have an idea, I agree with what the people have said,
(I repeat) it is just to be prepared... Windu said he did not sense the siths presence not that they would never re-emerge

True, preperation is the only explanation. But if something has been extinct for over 1000 years like the Siths have, it just doesn't make much sense to prepare for their possible return. Oh well, not important, and it did seem to pay off for him in the end, if only Anakin haden't lopped off his fuking arm it may have changed the outcome...

lmao vanquish
thats going in my sig right now

That also makes me question, WTF is UP WITH MACE WINDU NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO ANAKIN THAT STUPID IDIOT! I mean even Mace Windu said that he sensed much confusion in him and that he didn't trust so I mean WTF, and how come he couldn't just block that sh*& too... I mean that was pretty lame way to kill off like one best masters. 2nd best to Yoda... I was soo pissed at Anakin when I saw that!

o0o0o0o... that last reply had alot of typos... but basically what I meant to say is why didn't Mace Windu predict Anakins reaction to him attempting to kill the Palps with everything Mace Windu himself had said in the 3rd movie. It just doesn't make sense...

O one last note why did Mace windu scream like a freaking baby when he got his hand chopped off when Anakin (Anakin even got all his limps chopped off too) and Dooku never did... I mean what a penis! But I still love Mace Windu!

Ya it was a lame way to die for Windu. Such a strong Jedi as Windu should never be victim to a single blow like that. Jedi's can see the future, which means he would have been able to block that forsure.

They should have made that scene about 5 seconds longer actually. Anakin and Windu having a very short quick saber exchange before Windu gets his arm cut off. Like 4 or 5 swings with blocking, and very quick moves by anakin to catch him off guard and take his arm quickly. But one single blow like that? not a chance.

Same as Maul at the end of TPM. No fuking way obi wan can flip over him, and hit him with that incredibly slow slash. They should have made him flip over, and obi wan goes ape shit with like 5 or 6 swings that most are blocked except the last one. They could make them fast 5 second exchanges where the final blow lands. Same effect and same outcome, but looks far more plausable then the single blow.

And don't even get me started on Palps gutting those 3 Jedi's with single blows. Come on, extend the scene 15 more seconds, and at least make it appear like they were defending themselves. That first guy wasen't even looking at palps. He got impailed by the VERY FIRST SWING. WTF

Originally posted by Vanquish
Putting myself in the perspective of the Jedi's when they were training, don't you think it's a little strange that some of them specialized in certain form styles, when there is no point to them at all at the time?

Example a) Mace Windu is a form VII specialist, which took it one step further and developed Vapaad right? When he was training and developing that style, who is he training to fight? There are no Siths or Dark force users at the time of his training from padawan to Master. So why would he be training in that style? Wouldn't someone redirect him to another form that is more useful to the Jedi's at the time?

Example b) Dooku, when he was a padawan and later knight and then Jedi master, why was he training in form II? Form II is for combat in saber to saber right? Why would he be training in a saber form to fight other sabers, when there are none to fight, and haven't been for hundreds of years? There are no Sith, or Dark Jedi's at that time are there? So who is he training to fight?

Isn't that kind of like a soldier in the 2005 army training with Muskets, on the off chance that a musket using army will resurface sometime in the future, even though there haven't been any for over a century?

They turned out to be useful of course, but is that kind of just dumb luck that they did?


shut the **** up. no one cares about your complaints

haha.

Originally posted by Dark Thor
shut the **** up. no one cares about your complaints

hes not complaining, hes trying to start a discussion between educated star wars fans. he brings up a good point, even if his question is easily answered he brought up a bit of a discussion with his thread, something ive failed to see you do

Maybe they're board and decided to learn a special form.

Thank You Human Vader, I apprecaite that. I agree with those statments. I wish that those scenes were all longer, I mean some of fights were just too short anyway... like the fight between Dooku and Anakin... wasn't that just a little too quick especailly for someone like Dooku to have fallen so easily, and in the fight between Yoda and Palps it was like the skipped a whole scene when at one point they were dueling with sabre's then at the next Palps was tossen those pods at Yoda... I was like WTF???

Exactly, just trying to bring up fairly interesting threads for people to discuss ya know. It's getting harder and harder to come up with threads that aren't totally fuking rediculous. I had a thought about jedi forms, and figured maybe people would want to discuss. If ya don't like it, then don't post. Simple...

Aren't there a bunch of jedi who only learned saber-to-blaster techniques because of the times?

I am not sure..., but that would make alot of since, but not all enemys (even though most) use blasters. And who knows I geuss the force guided master Windu in his decision, or any others

Obi wans style is basically a blaster blocking style is it not? Form 3 I believe. It's a purely defensive form, good for defending against a saber, or defending against blaster fire. I would imagine that is what Qui gons is aswell. Although i'm not an expert in saber forms by a long shot.

It seems to me that all jedi's of those times would be training in a similiar style. Saber to saber styles, or dark side styles just don't seem that useful in the last 1000 years or so. Or so it seemed...

Apparently Qui-gon used the standard saber style and Obi-wan switched to defensive because of Qui-gon's fate.

Does the Forms explain the reason for this -

Anakin > Dooku > Obi-wan =/> Anakin

starwars


Anakin technically should have owned Obi-wan or is it just because a master knows his apprentice... or because george Lucas Screwed up... Or I'm just stupid

wallbashwallbashwallbash

The reason why Dooku (and presumably a few others) study obsolete fighting styles is to preserve them. Even if the style doesn't have much value these days, it should still be kept alive. Knowledge should never be thrown away completly.

Even in these days, some people train with swords and other ancient weapons so that the knowledge won't be lost.

Originally posted by Shirotakahashi
Does the Forms explain the reason for this -

Anakin > Dooku > Obi-wan =/> Anakin

starwars


Anakin technically should have owned Obi-wan or is it just because a master knows his apprentice... or because george Lucas Screwed up... Or I'm just stupid

wallbashwallbashwallbash
Well, Dooku didn't really swordfight Obi-wan down, he Forced him across the room. During the Mustafar fight they showed they couldn't Force each other so they had to swordfight it and I guess Obi-wan's defense held out against Anakin's offense until he had the upper hand.

That sounds about right man. I just like Anakin (THE 'CHARACTER' not Hayden C., he isn't a good actor) more than Obi-wan. (Ewan McGregor freaking rules though) I just thought that Anakin looked like a bad ass when he went Sith Style!

Anakin vs. Obi-wan - starwars

Anakin is just unlucky I geuss...

Anakin - blowup

Thanks for enlightening me.

testing...

Originally posted by Vanquish
Example a) Mace Windu is a form VII specialist, which took it one step further and developed Vapaad right? When he was training and developing that style, who is he training to fight? There are no Siths or Dark force users at the time of his training from padawan to Master. So why would he be training in that style? Wouldn't someone redirect him to another form that is more useful to the Jedi's at the time?

Vaapad is based on using the Shatterpoint of a opponent to overwhelm him. So it's very much designed to face every opponent not only dark force users.
And Juyo (basic form VII) also is not that bad. Just take a look at the KOTOR II manual. It's very good vs single opponents (only form IV is better), its good vs multiple opponents (only form I is better), it's as good vs people with a lightsaber than form II is. And it's still "medium" when you face people with a blaster. So the form itself is very useful - Vaapad (using Shatterpoint) even more.



Dooku is an idealist. See...for him the only "worthy" opponent is another Jedi and therefore he just practiced the form that would be the most useful against another Jedi. He was convinced that he could destroy everyone else (that is not a Jedi) no matter what so he just practiced the thing that would probably give him the edge on another force user wielding a lightsaber.



The threat that somebody would fall to the dark side always remained and it's not very uncommon to practice for the worst possible case. In modern military (at least special forces) the people still train with melee weapons and use martial arts although there would be very few situations they will ever need that knowledge.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Apparently Qui-gon used the standard saber style and Obi-wan switched to defensive because of Qui-gon's fate.

I have to correct that statement.

Qui-Gon used form IV and the "standard" saber style would be form VI. Obi-Wan switched his form because he saw that the offensive Ataru isn't very good vs a Sith Lord. He thought that form III defence would give him the edge in a one vs one since nobody should be able to pass through a Soresu defence movement.

sigh


dooku lost to anakin on purpose. it was part of the plan. dooku was supposed to lose on purpose and be taken prisoner by anakin. dooku would then say grievous was behind everything in the clone wars and resume his spot in the jeedai order. then he and sidious would rule the republic together and turn the jeedai order into an order of dark jeedai. of course sidious knew dooku would go with it, and when he had him down, he had anakin kill him. simple as that. dooku may still have lost to anakin because anakins skills had greatly improved since AOTC, something that took dooku by surprise. but the battle would not have been that quick. dooku would have given a good fight if he was fighting all out.

Where did you hear this from? The books or are you just thinking alot because that's some good stuff, but sounds right so must be from books or something... but thank you, although Sidious did say he be getting a new younger and more POWERFUL apprentice... and I know Anakin at that point has alot more potential... but I think he means at the present time.

If you did read the book what were Dooku and Palps discussing before Anakin and Kenobi boarded the ship??? this question goes for every1 as well.

Obi-Wan used form IV against Anakin.

Anakin uses form V right in his quest for greater power? Also Obi-wan used Form III (like stated I believe), and defended himself from Anankin till he got the up hand, which was the high ground...(which pisses me off, it was a lame way to defeat Anakin, who should of just went down stream but was too stupid, and maybe should of used a different force power if he is so strong...) then he defeated Anakin!

Anakin go poof! - blowup

Yea I never thought of the possiblity of any Jedi falling to the dark side
duh...
bangin
and Count Dooku mastering Form II would be a super candidate... thx for pointing that out!

And Even if Kenobi did use Form IV did Anakin still use V?

Anakin used Form V (strong offense, weak defence) while Kenobi used Form III (the opposite). That's part of why they were so well-matched.

Kenobi had previously studied Form IV, so he implemented that.

Nai brought up an excellent reason for Dooku's Form II mastery. Dooku was an idealist and arrogant, not to mention an aristocrat. Being a prodigy in his youth, it is not surprising he excelled in a form dedicated to outduelling other jedi as he trained in the temple.

However, people underestimate the use of Juyo. Juyo itself is actually a blend of many of the previous forms and then some. It relies on spontaneous, unpredictable moves to catch an opponent off guard. Also, it excels at blaster deflection (In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu was able to hold off gunships for a short time with two blades. Also, he deflects blasts in AOTC like it's his job) Vaapad is merely a deeper delve into the form itself, flirting with the darkside to achieve a mindset that is more primal and chaotic than a Jedi is used to in order to overcome foes. The shatterpoint technique which Mace is famous for is his own ability added to Vaapad to make him even more exceptional. However, people need to realize that shatterpoint doesn't neccessarily make Mace able to hold his own with EVERYONE.

Man, i'm glad I posted this thread. This is good stuff here, keep it coming for the less knowledgable like me on saber forms. Cool stuff

If you guys were Jedi's what form would you prefer...

O and what form does sidious... some secret sith form or something,... form VII... form V.... I don't know I can't tell... Maybe mix...

I would use* form Juyo... because it is badass I'd love to kill alot of force wielding, Jedi like oppenents, Sith or Jedi!!!

Sidious uses Form VI, also called Niman. This combines Forms 1, 3, 4 and 5, using each one in overall moderation.

This Form was created to give the Jedi a style that would be sufficient for most combat situations, but would give them more room to train in negotiations. It is therefore ideal for Sidious who is a politician.

Form VI is often considered to be less effective than other Forms. The fact that Sidious uses it to such devastating effect shows his power and skill.

But it also keeps him from being as deadly and scary as previous Sith lords, Niman does. Such a limited "Jack of all trades' form makes him less of a warrior than does the Form II mastery of Dooku or worse yet, the blended multiple forms of earlier Golden Era Sith.

Using Form 6 just points at being a diplomat. It might be hard to master, but it's not going to give you real respect if you face someone who masters one of the more powerful forms, like Form 2 or Form 7.

I see your point, but as I say, it's the ideal Form for Sidious, considering how much time he has to spend in negotiations. He is in charge of both Republic and Separatists, so he is clearly very busy.

Besides, it just shows how lethal he is that he is able to use 'the weak Form' to cut down Master Jedi like wheat.

For form VI:
All Jedi using that form on Geonosis DIED in the conflict. Actualy that form is nothing I would use in a real battle.

For Sidious: It's only an assumption that he used that form. It won't fit his character and actually his moves in ROTS doesn't seem very much like form VI (watch the Jedi on Geonosis moving and compare that to Sidious).

I'd say he would more likely use form V (aggressive movements, wide swings) or VII (Darth Maul used that one). As Sidious did show Maul how to fight he would probably be a form VII (Juyo) user. That also fits his characters and movements more than form VI.
Still that is also an assumption.

A reasonable assumption. He strikes me as a Ataru/Juyo user really, to me. I tend to agree. But his horribly telegraphed, super obvious thrusts that killed two jedi masters should be filed under Form Sucky Choreography, subfiled under Nick Gillard Needs Better Choreography.

They will be better if there where different animations for them