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Following Defenders:

Dr. Strange, Namor-the Sub-Mariner, Silver Surfer, Savage Hulk

versus the

following Avengers:

Thor, Hercules, Wonderman, Iron-Man, Hawkeye, Captain America, Vision


who will own this ?

and what are the one on one encounters here ?

without preparation.....

i will put those matches:

Silver Surfer - Thor

Hulk and Namor ... against.... Hercules, Wonderman, Iron Man

Strange have to put against Visioin, Cap and Hawkeye...


hmm.... very difficult i think

But the Defenders win.

Is Namor fresh from water?

Hawkeye and captain America arent going to do zip.

wich version of Iron Man and Wonder Man?

yes darky..... Sub-Mariner is fresh from water.....

Its a sad day in Avengerian history.............

the Wonderman ... who beat Tyrannus (formerly known.. as the Abomination) ... and "classic" Iron Man.... from the 80ies i think

More like it the Defenders. Hercules and Thor alone cant pick up the whole trash on theyr own.

Strange= Put up initial force field, augment it, yadda yadda, make it thrice stronger, Cytorrak the heck outta the Gods, move into Astral Mode, kill all !!

Oh no, looks like a bad day for the Avengers, they should disband and three months later get back together and have Iron Man complain about money in every line he's given.

Check out "The Order" limited series from a few years ago. The original Defenders are under a curse that makes them ruthless athoritarians. It takes just about all the other major superheroes to stand up to them. This could go either way, but I'd lean toward the Defenders.

"Strange= Put up initial force field, augment it, yadda yadda, make it thrice stronger, Cytorrak the heck outta the Gods, move into Astral Mode, kill all !!"

Silver Surfer is on this level as well, Thor id the only guy on the Avenger team who could hope to match these guys (and he still comes short).

This is a no brainer Defenders take this :

A more evn Avengers Team would look like this:

King Thor
Gennis Mar vell
Scarlet Witch
Vision
Current She Hulk
Sentry
Iron Man

I THINK HULK MASH

U IST RITE

Avengers win. Iron Man can take out namor alone cuz IM can just suck the moisture out of him. Herc and Wonder Man together can easily take out the Hulk, seeing as how one of them alone gives him alot of trouble. Thor can hold off SS until he gets some help from Hercules, and then SS is screwed. Vision, Cap, and Hawkeye i think can hold off Dr. Strange until they get help from Wonder Man, and then Strange is screwed cuz in Wonder Man's completely ionic form i doubt Strange could do much to him.

Originally posted by armandovalles
hold off Dr. Strange until they get help from Wonder Man, and then Strange is screwed cuz in Wonder Man's completely ionic form i doubt Strange could do much to him.

What makes you think that? When the Defenders are operating, it's s.o.p. for Strange to lock the Hulk up in a floating bubble when he rages out of controll. I don't know why he couldn't contain Wonderman just as easily.

This isn't to say that a Defender victory is a given. They ruled in The Order, but lost in the old "Avengers/Defenders War" waaayy back when. Again, by the numbers it should go to the Defenders, but the Avengers we're talking about are both powerful and resourceful. I can see scenarios where they win, but consider them less likely to do so.

Originally posted by armandovalles
Avengers win. Iron Man can take out namor alone cuz IM can just suck the moisture out of him. Herc and Wonder Man together can easily take out the Hulk, seeing as how one of them alone gives him alot of trouble. Thor can hold off SS until he gets some help from Hercules, and then SS is screwed. Vision, Cap, and Hawkeye i think can hold off Dr. Strange until they get help from Wonder Man, and then Strange is screwed cuz in Wonder Man's completely ionic form i doubt Strange could do much to him.
Your apparently haven't read Order

Strange K.O’ed all the avenger roster

Originally posted by armandovalles
Avengers win. Iron Man can take out namor alone cuz IM can just suck the moisture out of him. Herc and Wonder Man together can easily take out the Hulk, seeing as how one of them alone gives him alot of trouble. Thor can hold off SS until he gets some help from Hercules, and then SS is screwed. Vision, Cap, and Hawkeye i think can hold off Dr. Strange until they get help from Wonder Man, and then Strange is screwed cuz in Wonder Man's completely ionic form i doubt Strange could do much to him.

Defenders, with ease.

IM and Thor are their only true competitors.

Wonderman and Herc would get their asses handed to them by the Hulk. Hulk has nearly killed both of them individually, and he has manhandled all the Avengers, including Thor.

Surfer could give all of his teammates the power cosmic. Then the Avengers would really be fudged.

i'd not say easily. and i'd put thor against strange (thor beats loki everytime and from what i've seen of the threads most think loki above strange - me i think it's close but strange ain't taking thor down quickly no matter what he does) and ss against ironman. (ss fans laugh all you'd like - i could show a scan of im absorbing ss powers and ko'ing him with it - i could show a similar scan of im absorbing terrax's power and ko'ing HIM with it as well) then herc (classic herc has NEVER been beaten by the hulk) and wm could work on the hulk. i could also show a scan of a great 1on1 battle cap dished out to namor!! actually, it was an awesome fight, though namor did win it in the end. but it wouldn't BE 1on1 - vizh and hawkeye would help cap ko namor without too much trouble i'd think, then help the others. vizh could solidify in hulk's brain or they could find another way to beat him or at least eliminate him from the fight. then all of them work on strange and ss.

i could certainly see this going either way.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd not say easily. and i'd put thor against strange (thor beats loki everytime and from what i've seen of the threads most think loki above strange - me i think it's close but strange ain't taking thor down quickly no matter what he does) and ss against ironman. (ss fans laugh all you'd like - i could show a scan of im absorbing ss powers and ko'ing him with it - i could show a similar scan of im absorbing terrax's power and ko'ing HIM with it as well) then herc and wm could work on the hulk. i could also show a scan of a great 1on1 battle cap dished out to namor!! actually, it was an awesome fight, though namor did win it in the end. but it wouldn't BE 1on1 - vizh and hawkeye would help cap ko namor without too much trouble i'd think, then help the others. vizh could solidify in hulk's brain or they could find another way to beat him or at least eliminate him from the fight. then all of them work on strange and ss.

i could certainly see this going either way.
see that?

They couldn't take SS down ( all of them)

dude, i don't feel like getting the scan so imagine - im and ss are both in the air - ss blasts him and im lights up as he absorbs the blast then returns it, ko'ing ss and in the process burning out his armor.

and as i said, it wasn't a one time deal - he did the same thing to terrax. so, we each have a scan to back up our point. as i said, the defenders can certainly win, but the avengers can as well.

Originally posted by leonidas
dude, i don't feel like getting the scan so imagine - im and ss are both in the air - ss blasts him and im lights up as he absorbs the blast then returns it, ko'ing ss and in the process burning out his armor.

and as i said, it wasn't a one time deal - he did the same thing to terrax. so, we each have a scan to back up our point. as i said, the defenders can certainly win, but the avengers can as well.
lol Iron hanging with SS , that's funny

Read Order, One on One they were no match for him, just to contain SS, they had to attack at the same time.

All of them couldn’t scratch the SS

This is pretty recent to

what Issue did Ironman give SS trouble?

Iron Man can absorb any type of ambient energy (except kinetic, apparently) and he never gets much respect. But this is one isolated incident leo. Surfer could always turn Tony into a pile of Skittles.

it was an avengers annual, #11 i think - avengers v defenders, actually. and as i said, laugh all you'd like - it happened, like it did to terrax. (only im didn't burn out his armor for that and that was more recent.)

this fight could go either way.

<<Iron Man can absorb any type of ambient energy (except kinetic, apparently) and he never gets much respect. But this is one isolated incident leo. Surfer could always turn Tony into a pile of Skittles.>>

amen to that cube, regarding the respect. and he did it to terrax too, don't forget. but i see your point as well ( i mean he did change the obliterator's weapons into, what, bubbles or something??) - like i see kg's. but since it HAS happened, i think we gotta allow for the chance it could happen again, which is why i'd say the avengers COULD win this fight.

Originally posted by leonidas
it was an avengers annual, #11 i think - avengers v defenders, actually. and as i said, laugh all you'd like - it happened, like it did to terrax. (only im didn't burn out his armor for that and that was more recent.)

this fight could go either way.
so Ironman will stop SS
and Thor will stop Strange?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Iron Man can absorb any type of ambient energy (except kinetic, apparently) and he never gets much respect. But this is one isolated incident leo. Surfer could always turn Tony into a pile of Skittles.>>

amen to that cube, regarding the respect. and he did it to terrax too, don't forget. but i see your point as well ( i mean he did change the obliterator's weapons into, what, bubbles or something??) - like i see kg's. but since it HAS happened, i think we gotta allow for the chance it could happen again, which is why i'd say the avengers COULD win this fight.

True, but if both teams are using all abilities at their disposal (and assuming that Tony doesn't develop a Surferbuster or Strangebuster armor,) the Defenders are far more likely to come out on top. I think it was bubbles, or something like that.

Silver Surfer isn't the most powerful Defender, mind you. Don't forget the Doctor.

yeah, i think thor v strange would be a good one though and could again go either way. even in the bands, thor could control the weather and casting would be a ***** with lightning bolts and hurricane winds raining all 'round him. anywhere strange teleports him, thor could teleport back and vice versa. i'd doubt strange could affect mjollnir so i think that would be a great match. i'd think it would stalemate until the reserves for one or the other showed up, but i DO think this would be the pivotal battle. in the past too, when strange has battled powerful foes, he seems to tire quickly (ie - where he was getting killed by enchantress and executioner - both of whom thor has taken on (combined) and beaten handily) and also when he was dealing with the hulk in #299 - he couldn't even hold hulk in a shield.) i'd give thor a slight edge, based on his experience with magic and his overall power, but i'm not confident on it.

I'm guessing it depends on what suit ironman is using at the time, but if it just his normal one, he can't hang with an all out SS.

I don't know the answer to Thor vs Strange if neither gets any prep, Thor can absorb magical bolts, but not spells. He could always be wrapped up in a shrinking Cyttorak crystal.

Surfer and Strange had a discussion about who was more powerful, neither seemed to be able to answer it the question. But more likely Surfer is a bit more powerful in a flash fight and Dr is more powerful in a prep fight.

I don't see Avangers taking this....ever.

Doc is on another level of power, nowadays. I don't think Thor has much of a chance against Agamotto, much less the rest the Vishanti and the host of other entities Strange can envoke, all of whom are above Skyfather level.

For the magical nullfying trick he used on Jugs, it only works on enchantments. He'd also need to throw it which wouldn't be likely seeing he couldn't move while in the crystal.
Odin was taken down by a sleep spell from the Vishanti book called mists of morphius, Thor could be taken out just as well with the same spell.

This is ridiculous

Just to stop Silver Surfer they had to get advance technology

SS took both Vision and Wonder man with ease

Strange K.O'ed them all once he finished with his spells

Defenders take this pretty easily

Originally posted by leonidas
, when strange has battled powerful foes, he seems to tire quickly (ie - where he was getting killed by enchantress and executioner - both of whom thor has taken on (combined) and beaten handily) and also when he was dealing with the hulk in #299 - he couldn't even hold hulk in a shield.) i'd give thor a slight edge, based on his experience with magic and his overall power, but i'm not confident on it.

I still find that fight where his shields can't handle enchantress suspect, I mean I have a scan where his shields hold up against a supernova, then those same shields prevent Strange from being pulled into the blackhole long enough for him to cork the blackhole.

Sounds way too suspect to me.

A supernova !!! Dude !! Strange handled that with ease, even Thor will be half-dead after exposed to that kinda explosion !!

Here, he takes the brunt of a supernova, then resists it's gravitational pull, then corks the black hole with magic. The other guy screaming "noooo" was some sort of god, Strange throws him into the middle of the supernova.
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8590/dmm5tw.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Iron Man can absorb any type of ambient energy (except kinetic, apparently) and he never gets much respect. But this is one isolated incident leo. Surfer could always turn Tony into a pile of Skittles.>>

amen to that cube, regarding the respect. and he did it to terrax too, don't forget. but i see your point as well ( i mean he did change the obliterator's weapons into, what, bubbles or something??) - like i see kg's. but since it HAS happened, i think we gotta allow for the chance it could happen again, which is why i'd say the avengers COULD win this fight.

He couldn't in the Order.

SS wasn't using any destructive powers against Iron Man.

Iron Man said that the cosmic blast near ripped him apart (something like that)

And He knew SS was holding back

He uses al his power in one Shot ( guess what happens) ----- it has no effect on the Silver Surfer.

While SS is ignoring Iron Man ----- and whining “saying why am I in the web of violence" Iron Man uses his tools to jack some of his energy.

But guess what

Iron couldn't handle the Energy, and was going to blow up soon.

Like I said thy tried similar shit in Order This time

It was Avenger, still failed

SS took down Vision, WW with ease , he can take most of the avenger with ease

SS can easily break Iron Man to bits really fast ( in bloodlust)

Now thats the Strange I was talking about !!!

A fully powered up Strange is almost unbeatable. He's not usually like that, but when he gets his mojo workin, watch out!

<<He couldn't in the Order.
SS wasn't using any destructive powers against Iron Man.>>

damn man, you don't get it do you? yes he COULD beat im (as your scan shows), but it has been shown (twice) that im is capable of absorbing the power cosmic. he also absorbed thor's lightning to ko thor an an early avengers. cripes, get off it already. i acknowledged ss could beat im - proof twice over shows im can potentially beat ss as well. and if thor can somehow handle strange, avengers can win it. strange's powers are not limitless and i doubt a sleep spell could be used while thor is hurling his hammer at strange. i still say that one's too close to call.

still can go either way in my book.

oh SS holding back -- and simple cosmic blast nearly destroying Iron Man
SS ignoring Iron Man -------- only way he could absorb SS energy
Iron Man nearly dying because of it.

After it's all said and done.

Bloodlust SS will have no problem, Blasting Iron Man to bits.

Like I said SS can transmute matter as well, he turn Iron's suit into Dust.

My point is if SS is trying Iron Man won't be doing shit like in Order.

Is not like SS can beat Iron Man, and Iron Man also defeat Surfer

If SS is using any powers Iron Man doesn’t even strand a chance apparently even when SS is not fighting , and his powers Iron man couldn’t handle a little of his energies.

Like I said those were SS very early showings

In Order:

Iron Man amp Wonder Man, and Vision ------- as you saw in my scan just to attack SS , and contain him -------- still couldn’t him.

If it takes Avengers to just contain him (iron man included)

Even Wonder man was knocking Silver Surfer around when not trying , but apparently if he uses his powers WonderMan is no problem

in 'order', in 'order' . . . blah blah blah . . .

that avengers annual isnt THAT old - ss was WELL established by then, and he certainly wasn't TRYING to lose. neither was terrax. deny all you like your protestations don't mean jack.

can ss beat im? yes
can im put down ss? yes
how do i know? because he HAS. and has absorbed and redirected the power cosmic, AND thor's lightning as well. he's also ko'd thor with it, and has ko'd savage hulk on his own. what's your problem with im? he's certainly one of marvel's elite. seriously, i don't get why you're having such a hard time wrapping your brain around it. the 'order' showing is countered TWICE. so why should it count anymore than my 2 examples? answer: it shouldn't, and anyone not looking at the facts blindly could see that. im has some AWESOME feats to his name - beating ss is just one among MANY.

no one has done or said anything to make me change my opinion that the avengers would take some of these match ups. and of course, if it's pure 'bloodlust', (like you alluded to above) thor would go warrior mad then it would be hell for the defenders taking THOR, let alone the rest. (don't laugh - he WHOOPED warlock and ss together + the rest of the infinity watch! only moondragon with the mind gem managed to affect him at all)

AMen BRoTHeR!!

Is it possible for Strange to teleport all they shoot at him in another dimension?

http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/1040/theorder01099oq.th.jpg

And if we talk about weather controlling...

http://img310.imageshack.us/img310/4052/theorder01194on.th.jpg

Strange has hella powerful weather control. Rains of Ragnorak can be summoned and he can make lightning attack multiple enemies, increase winds to insane speed level, make it hail...

He has about the same control over weather as Storm.

BTW. That first pic is the shit.

thor crushed storm in weather control. starnge isn't beating thor's control of the elements. he's a god and that's his purview. and i'd doubt he could teleport all attacks - wouldn't matter anyway, even if he COULD that would tie him up and keep him out of the fight til the others settled things - however they fell out.

I don't think anyone said he was any better than Thor at weather control, but he's close.

Thor is the god of thunder, Strange can invoke other gods of weather to equal Thor's weather control.

He's as powerful as the name he invokes, so if he invokes someone with better weather control than Thor, then Strange would have better weather control.

i never actually saw a namor/cap fight.
show me the scans leonidas.
show me the scans!!!!!

http://community.allhiphop.com/customavatars/avatar49628_1.gif

There, that's the fight between Cap and Namor, it's very clear who won.

yup.

No tell me who won that fight?

<<show me the scans leonidas.
show me the scans!!!!!>>

i'll see if i can dig the issue up. damn, i was just looking at it . . .

and long, he'd have to invoke zeus to find somone with greater elemental control. and thor even held HIM off - though only briefly. and by the way long, who DO you think wins this fight? avengers? defenders? they split the battles?

Yeah, I don't think Strange is better in weather control, but he's no slouch. I stick by saying he's Storms equal, maybe a few steps ahead since he can "program" the weather to attack certain enemies.

I don't see the Avengers taking the majority if the Defenders are bringing their A-Game, but the Avengers do have a chance. It isn't cut and dry, Defenders 10/10.

I'd say Defenders 8/10 with their A-Game.

8 huh. i was thinking more like defenders 6/10. MAYBE 7. but i think each fight would be very close and more often than not it would likely be thor left standing fighting all the defenders you are left.

I see them with the firm majority, Avengers are for earth threats, Defenders usually fight Universal threats.

It's easy for some people to underestimate Thor, he is a beast when he cuts loose, and he'd most definatly be the last one alive from the Avengers.

What about this Strange vs Thor fight? I can't tell the winner, I made a thread about it a while ago, and no one responded.
Who do you think?

Originally posted by leonidas
in 'order', in 'order' . . . blah blah blah . . .

that avengers annual isnt THAT old - ss was WELL established by then, and he certainly wasn't TRYING to lose. neither was terrax. deny all you like your protestations don't mean jack.

can ss beat im? yes
can im put down ss? yes
how do i know? because he HAS. and has absorbed and redirected the power cosmic, AND thor's lightning as well. he's also ko'd thor with it, and has ko'd savage hulk on his own. what's your problem with im? he's certainly one of marvel's elite. seriously, i don't get why you're having such a hard time wrapping your brain around it. the 'order' showing is countered TWICE. so why should it count anymore than my 2 examples? answer: it shouldn't, and anyone not looking at the facts blindly could see that. im has some AWESOME feats to his name - beating ss is just one among MANY.

no one has done or said anything to make me change my opinion that the avengers would take some of these match ups. and of course, if it's pure 'bloodlust', (like you alluded to above) thor would go warrior mad then it would be hell for the defenders taking THOR, let alone the rest. (don't laugh - he WHOOPED warlock and ss together + the rest of the infinity watch! only moondragon with the mind gem managed to affect him at all)
SS easily takes Iron whether u like it or not it's not a debate like i said

Avenger had to attack at the same time (with boosted power) couldn't take him out.

2002 ----- Avengers attacking SS (with technology)
vs 1982 ------- things change

Even in 1982 SS was holding back like I said

A blast will destroy Iron Man, SS can turn his Armor into plastic, or Gas , Iron can’t hurt Silver Surfer ------ he had to absorb SS energy to do anything , even then he was about to explode like I said Iron Man Armor will be tuned to dust in second.


SS nearly destroying Iron Man while holding back, now in bloodlust SS has release energy to blast planets easily = Iron Man dead

SS can change his armor to gas

What can Iron Man do?

How is he going to absorb SS energy? Even a fraction of it Iron Man can’t handle , and don’t forget about SS quickness.

Ironman's best shot

Avenger (with tech just to contain Silver Surfer)

kgkg, you got a scan where Strange finishes them all off?

Originally posted by long pig
kgkg, you got a scan where Strange finishes them all off?
ya while all the avenger were busy ( just trying to contain SS)

note they couldn't even hurt SS ( with all there might) need tech and most members just to contain him.

Strange = K.O avenger

They didn't team up on strange ( cuz they knew SS was the strongest there)

They learn not to understate Strange

All that and they only managed to weaken Surfer. Yeah, I don't think the Avengers are going to win this.

Thanks for the scan, never fully read the book, skimmed it at the store and read a review.

Defenders are all about the ownage.

Originally posted by long pig
All that and they only managed to weaken Surfer. Yeah, I don't think the Avengers are going to win this.

Thanks for the scan, never fully read the book, skimmed it at the store and read a review.

Defenders are all about the ownage.
Yes big time getting owned

Avenger brought advance technology just to contain Silver Surfer ( they were scared lol)

In that same Comic SS took out both Vision and Wonder Man easily (like they were nothing)

Hulk did some slamming here and there also

Thor is the only big boy -------- Strange will handle his ass tho.

I just found an older Defenders vs Avengers comic, Avengers#116.

The whole team decides to attack Strange while Strange is in his mansion, Strange(Really pissed...really pissed) uses a spell making the whole team unable to move( Vision, Scarlet Witch, Iron Man, Black Panther, Mantis, Thor, Captain America, Swordsman).
Doc throws them out of the mansion and down his manner with a flick of his wrist.

This was when the Avengers though Strange had Black Knight held hostage, Thor broke down the door with Mjolnir. They were really trying to attack and they got tossed away.

This is just one Defender....

<<SS easily takes Iron whether u like it or not it's not a debate like i said>>

i stopped reading your post after this sentence. it is like you to be argumentative, but it's unlike you to be so deliberately obtuse. everyone else involved in the discussion seems to have acknowledged the fact that the avengers CAN win at least some of these match ups. in part because of the scan below. and you're right about one thing - it is NOT a debate. got a problem with the evidence staring out at you from the computer screen, take it up with marvel. it is CANNON - im HAS beaten ss. funny that is HAS happened, yet you still say it's not even a debate!! ROTFLLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do you know how idiotic that sounds???! you're saying it is not a debate and that im has no chance - but he HAS beaten him. he HAS beaten him! he HAS beaten him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so now what, you'll say ss wasn't trying? he wasn't pissed off enough (because he WAS pissed, and he WAS trying to end it) you'll say it was 'early' ss? not established yet? whatever excuse you choose to come up with is utterly and completely irrelevant because (say it with me) IRONMAN HAS KO'D THE SILVER SURFER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! show your scan again about the 'order' and how he couldn't hurt him with all the avengers. maybe it was IRONMAN who wasn't trying. maybe HE wasn't pissed enough. maybe he really likes ss and was going easy on him. maybe it was the armor - it wasn't fully powered. maybe he didn't feel like absorbing ss's power this time. you're not the only one who can make excuses.

logically i am aware of the fact that ss CAN beat im. my scan shows IRREFUTABLE proof that im is capable of taking ss out as well. jeezus man, you sound like a wolvie fanboy denying facts that are presented right in front of you nose. deny them. say it's (BWHAHAHHAAHAHHAH) not a debate at all (which is obviously correct - it truly is NOT a debate since the proof is irrefutable!!) - i don't care what you say. it has happened and so could again. come down off the surf board and look at things objectively. criminy . . .

and long, that thor v strange fight IS a tough one to figure. honestly, i think if thor gets on the offense quicker than strange, he could keep strange busy trying to defend and perhaps wear strange down, as has happened in the past. but if strange can work up something BEFORE thor goes off, then maybe strange can pull it out. i think it's a very interesting fight and one that could go either way.

the examples both you and kg discussed were examples where strange had TIME to prep something - in his mansion, while the others attacked ss. in a straight up, 1on1, i think (based on loki and strange seeming reasonably close and thor's ability to crush loki) thor might get the advantage more often than not. but i'm not completely certain. i really can't believe this fight hasn't happened in a book - or if it has, it's not in one I'VE read.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<SS easily takes Iron whether u like it or not it's not a debate like i said>>

i stopped reading your post after this sentence. it is like you to be argumentative, but it's unlike you to be so deliberately obtuse. everyone else involved in the discussion seems to have acknowledged the fact that the avengers CAN win at least some of these match ups. in part because of the scan below. and you're right about one thing - it is NOT a debate. got a problem with the evidence staring out at you from the computer screen, take it up with marvel. it is CANNON - im HAS beaten ss. funny that is HAS happened, yet you still say it's not even a debate!! ROTFLLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do you know how idiotic that sounds???! you're saying it is not a debate and that im has no chance - but he HAS beaten him. he HAS beaten him! he HAS beaten him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so now what, you'll say ss wasn't trying? he wasn't pissed off enough (because he WAS pissed, and he WAS trying to end it) you'll say it was 'early' ss? not established yet? whatever excuse you choose to come up with is utterly and completely irrelevant because (say it with me) IRONMAN HAS KO'D THE SILVER SURFER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! show your scan again about the 'order' and how he couldn't hurt him with all the avengers. maybe it was IRONMAN who wasn't trying. maybe HE wasn't pissed enough. maybe he really likes ss and was going easy on him. maybe it was the armor - it wasn't fully powered. maybe he didn't feel like absorbing ss's power this time. you're not the only one who can make excuses.

logically i am aware of the fact that ss CAN beat im. my scan shows IRREFUTABLE proof that im is capable of taking ss out as well. jeezus man, you sound like a wolvie fanboy denying facts that are presented right in front of you nose. deny them. say it's (BWHAHAHHAAHAHHAH) not a debate at all (which is obviously correct - it truly is NOT a debate since the proof is irrefutable!!) - i don't care what you say. it has happened and so could again. come down off the surf board and look at things objectively. criminy . . .
Notice

SS was holding back ------ even than nearly killing Iron Man
SS was distracted while Iron got behind him , to do what he did
Even than Iron was about to go down because he couldn't handle the energy

If by a chance you mean if SS does the same mistakes and hold back , and ignores iron man ? ya bloodlust? Nope

like I said read Order.

They needed FF, Avengers, Quasar, Captain Marvel , Shield etc

To stop Defenders , and still Defenders were doing ok with all of those teams

times change

distracted him? in MY scan? they were battling the whole time! sss had just shrugged off one of im's best punches and a repulsor ray blast! distracted? what the hell . . .?

your point - ss can win. evidence: order

my point: im can win. evidence: avengers annual #11 + some issue of new warriors where he absorbs terrax's power and ko's him.

your not liking my evidence makes it no less relevant than yours, i'm afraid.

Originally posted by leonidas
distracted him? in MY scan? they were battling the whole time! sss had just shrugged off one of im's best punches and a repulsor ray blast! distracted? what the hell . . .?

your point - ss can win. evidence: order

my point: im can win. evidence: avengers annual #11 + some issue of new warriors where he absorbs terrax's power and ko's him.

your not liking my evidence makes it no less relevant than yours, i'm afraid.
?

My point SS was holding back look at the scans i provided

Iron man admits that SS holding back nearly killed him


you point Iron Man can win if SS holds back , If SS doesn't turn his armor to gas , and SS is not paying attion to the battle.

How does IronMan get SS energy (while SS is acting like a *****?)

Bloodlust won't happen.


You are rite Leo Iron Man can win: If Silver Surfer doesn’t use his powers (like matter manipulation, cosmic blast (leveling cites) , Not using his speed etc even so he would be K.o by energy cuz he can’t handle it.

This is bloodlust Leo

Actually, leo, it's the other way around. Strange had no prep whatsoever, The Avengers(including Thor) did.

Dr. had no clue the Avengers were coming, all he knew was someone was attacking his home and when he saw that Mantis had k.o'd Wong, he flipped out, his eyes went red and he was two words away from killing them, but Wong stopped him. So he flung them across the estate.

Thor was helpless as were the other Avengers.

cool. when did this happen, long? and wouldn't he have had prep WHILE the avengers were pounding at his door? and i find it REALLY hard to believe he could have killed them (especially thor) with a word. i like doc, and he's a bad mofo, but killing thor with a word? i'm not quite prepared to buy that. though, as i said, i DO think strange capable of winning that fight.

Originally posted by leonidas
distracted him? in MY scan? they were battling the whole time! sss had just shrugged off one of im's best punches and a repulsor ray blast! distracted? what the hell . . .?

See SS not paying attention (that’s how Iron Man gets the energy)

Before getting SS energy ----- small cosmic blast nearly killed Iron Man
Iron Man best attack had to effect on Silver Surfer

I use kill them not litterally, but he was about to finish a spell that would have sent them to deaths realm I believe.

He was just really pissed that Wong had been attacked for no reason, but I don't see him having any prep because he basically runs to where he heard Wong yell. He was taken totally by suprise.

But, instead of sending them there he just immoblized them and flug them away.

So, if he can immoblize Thor along with the rest with a spell, then he should be able to immoblize Thor just as easy by himself, setting him up for some other attack.

Yeah, it's funny that it hasn't happend before other than this fight.

i can see it MAYBE happeing, but like i said earlier, if thor gets the attack advantage, whips up some mega lightning bolts, doc is gonna be busy - - maybe too busy to really do much to thor offensively. thor can also pretty effectively absorb most magical attacks (not spoken spells, but energy based attacks) damn, i'm still not sure. but i think the winner of THIS fight would decide the winner of the whole thing. namor and hulk are pretty inconsequential, namor can be beaten and hulk can be kept busy. it's doc and ss that would be the deciding factors for the teams. maybe thor WOULD start with ss and im with strange. either way, i think ss and doc would win a match against thor and im more often than not. i'm thinking 7/10 is more likely than 6/10.

good debate.

later

Originally posted by Betageuze
Following Defenders:

Dr. Strange, Namor-the Sub-Mariner, Silver Surfer, Savage Hulk

versus the

following Avengers:

Thor, Hercules, Wonderman, Iron-Man, Hawkeye, Captain America, Vision


Here is how Defenders can win

Dr.Strange and Thor are battling it out
Hulk and Hercules are battling it out (hope its classic one)
Silver Surfer: takes out WW, Vision, Captain America, Hawkeye, and Iron-Man Namor-the Sub-Mariner if he needs it

Note he has defeated most of them easily in Order ( one shot knock out) and going bloodlust not much they can do

Hulk wins over Hercules barely, if not SS will attack him

Then Hulk and SS blast Thor ------- who is probably dead anyway.

add Quasar , or CM to avenger than we have a better fight

I would consider Doc in his mansion, excuse me, his Sanctum Sanctorum to be quite thourougly prepped for any attack. He'd got enough wards, spells, and such like defenses woven around that place to keep the hordes of hell from just jumping him while he's on the toilet or whatever. The Avengers may as well have been riding into Little Big Horn wearing cavalry outfits

You can make a case saying it had something to do with his protection spells, i'd guess. But it was clearly shown that it was Strange who was casting the spell to immoblize them.

But yeah, the devil himself couldn't get too deep inside his house with intent to harm.

Yep, it wasnt the Sanctum that paused the Avengers, it was Strange's unprepared SPELL !!! UNPREPARED !!

Hi...glad to join this little party. LP, your Defenders fanboy-ism is stinking up the thread.

Surprisingly, though, I'm going to agree with LP and say Defenders 8/10. I'd favor SS over IM and Strange over Thor, but leo has done a nice job of provided a dissenting opinion (yes, it could happen kg). And if any one of those two fights go the Avengers way so they can help the other, I'd say it goes to the Avengers. But most of the time I see the Defenders winning.

-DM

The Defenders win. Unless this is an Avengers team with only powerhouses and not streeth levels included they wont win.

I mean honestly. What is Hawnkeye going to do here? Hide and wait everyone stops figthing? Heck Cap has done it.

If Thor can beat Loki, who's much more powerful than Strange,
then surely Thor can take Strange more often than not.
Strange's magic cannot get past Mjolnir.

Defenders should win more often than not due to Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by Zahit
If Thor can beat Loki, who's much more powerful than Strange,


Best. Quote. Ever. Where's longpig??

Many people would put Strange above Loki though...unfortunately, but perhaps correctly.

Sometimes he is, others he isent. Unless im wrong he doesnt tap into cosmic levels all the time.

Loki and Strange fought once that i know and Loki won.

zahit sayeth:

<<If Thor can beat Loki, who's much more powerful than Strange,
then surely Thor can take Strange more often than not.>>

to which digi answereth:

<<Best. Quote. Ever. Where's longpig??>>

to which i respondeth:

hey!! i said that first! and thanks for the kind words digi. and i think you're right- the othcome of those fights WOULD decide things. and to the olympian - cap is street level, but he put up one HELL of a 1on1 fight against namor. (yes zahit, i'll look for the issue to scan) hawkeye is ALWAYS underestimated. together cap and hawk would certainly keep namor busy and COULD beat him, leaving vision to help thor or im or herc and wm. just not sure vizh could do to much to ss or strange. herc could also tackle and keep hulk busy on his own. maybe thor, vizh AND wm could tackle strange. that might be enough to tip things in the avengers favor because if they take strange thor will be free to help with ss. after that, hulk and namor would fall for certain.

i think 8/10 is too high though - i said 7/10 defenders, but it could be closer. and its always good to have you involved in the discussions.

and tell us in what issue/title that namor vs captain america
fight took place when you find it...

No way Captain and Hawk can beat Namor...the arrows wouldn't puncture Namor...and Namor could grab Captain's shield and beat him to death with it. Namor is better then they are in every area besides fighting skills. And I believe that Namor is quite capable in hand-to-hand combat too.

Namor beats Cap and Hawkeye in ten seconds.

Originally posted by olympian
Sometimes he is, others he isent. Unless im wrong he doesnt tap into cosmic levels all the time.

Loki and Strange fought once that i know and Loki won.

I might just promise you my first-born if you could get me an issue number and details of that fight. Unless it was that fight where Strange was just getting started and didn't have all of his artifacts and spells. But if it's current Strange I'd cry in happiness.

And maybe Hawkeye couldn't beat Namor DC, but some localized nukes would slow him down, and leo mentioned Cap giving him a decent fight once. The point is, they could keep him busy for a while.

-DM

Originally posted by DigiMark007

And maybe Hawkeye couldn't beat Namor DC, but some localized nukes would slow him down, and leo mentioned Cap giving him a decent fight once. The point is, they could keep him busy for a while.

-DM

Originally posted by ImmortalOne
Strange= Put up initial force field, augment it, yadda yadda, make it thrice stronger, Cytorrak the heck outta the Gods, move into Astral Mode, kill all !!

too true

Originally posted by olympian
Sometimes he is, others he isent. Unless im wrong he doesnt tap into cosmic levels all the time.

Loki and Strange fought once that i know and Loki won.

Quite easily, but it was long ago before stranges power up. I agree though most of the time Loki like Doctor Fate owns Strange

Keep the Faith

Stay Whirly

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No way Captain and Hawk can beat Namor...the arrows wouldn't puncture Namor...and Namor could grab Captain's shield and beat him to death with it. Namor is better then they are in every area besides fighting skills. And I believe that Namor is quite capable in hand-to-hand combat too.

Namor beats Cap and Hawkeye in ten seconds.
Hawkeye once beat the Collector, one of the Elders of the Universe who wields the power primordial

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

Despite the name those Elders of the Universe sure fail to look impressive.

But then again Krona was beaten by a tnt arrow of Hawkeye...aw hell i chance my mind. With the archer there, theres no way the Avengers lose

I'd say "day-to-day" Loki has more power at his fingertips than Strange, and before Strange spent several millennia fighting in that otherdimensional war Loki had tons more experience.
When Strange gets going though, he leaves Loki in the dust.

I wasn't aware of 616 Hawkeye carrying mini-nukes like Ultimate Hawkeye does. He does however have his Ultron-Killer arrow(s?): Adamantuim tipped and carrying enough of an electrical charge to instantly drop the Abomination (which it did). While I favor the Defenders in this, even the "weaker" Avengers are not to be underestimated.

You love it.

Ah, the famous loki fight Strange Tales#123 1964.

Was he Sorcerer Supreme yet? Naw.
Was he a master of any mystical arts? Sorta, he had about 20 "dark magic" spells.
Was he even aware who Loki was? Naw
Did he know who Thor was? Naw
Did he have the Eye of Agamotto? Naw
Was he the chosen apprentice of the Ancient One? Naw.
Did he have the real Cloak? Naw.
Did he have the Vishanti? Naw.
His own title??? Naw.

Loki tricked Strange into thinking Thor was evil and Loki was good, since Strange only had his amulete at the time, he couldn't tell the difference.
The fight was simple and nothing big, Loki and Strange fought, stalemated for most of the fight and then Loki got the upperhand at the end and Loki left.

Pretty embarassing for Loki, if you ask me. At that time, Strange was as about as powerful as, say....the original Scarlet Witch, probably less.

The difference between Loki and Strange is Loki is limited to his own inner magic, Strange has no limits to what magic he can tap.

Vishanti>Dwarf frost giant magic.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I'd say "day-to-day" Loki has more power at his fingertips than Strange, and before Strange spent several millennia fighting in that otherdimensional war Loki had tons more experience.
When Strange gets going though, he leaves Loki in the dust.

I wasn't aware of 616 Hawkeye carrying mini-nukes like Ultimate Hawkeye does. He does however have his Ultron-Killer arrow(s?): Adamantuim tipped and carrying enough of an electrical charge to instantly drop the Abomination (which it did). While I favor the Defenders in this, even the "weaker" Avengers are not to be underestimated.

Namor can just dodge his arrows. He has dodged bullets before. Here he dodges machine gun fire:

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8933/theorder01070gd.th.jpg

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/3254/193vy.th.jpg

Yeah, the Order was awesome. I'm guessing Hawkeye's a better shot than those panic-firing troops though.

Long Pig, wasent Loki weaker than usual in that fight. Like operating at lower levels. He makes reference to it during the battle with Strange if thats the one im thinking about.

Not that I know of, no.
Maybe in the next confrontation he was weak, because he hid from Strange, Strange had to program his illusions to find him.

They never faught after that except when Loki had Strange's powers during the King Thor arc and with Strange's power Loki talked about being near omnipotent.

Ill check it out if i can, i think i remember reading something in those lines. Anyway none wer equal to theyr top showings at the time. They had better against others.

True, it was Strange's like....4th appearance and loki's like 10th, neither were fully thought out. But, since loki is an immortal, it's doubtful his power has grown in a few years.
He's not a god like Thor or Odin, he's a dwarf frost giant.

I thought he was god of mischief or something...

He isn't a god like Thor and Odin.
He isn't even related to them, he's a stepchild born of a frost giant.

He's a dwarf frost giant.

There is a reason why Loki needed to steal Strange's magic to do things beyond his normal power, it's because Strange's magic and artifacts are beyond his own.

Yeah even in the myths Loki was never an Asgardian. Thats why he ends up against them with his sons by his side in ragnarok.