Mace Wendu Stronger than Palpatine

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mace wendu4
I think palpatine was trying hard to defeat Mace and he still lost. I don't know why people always say palpatine let him win. I doubt palpatine would have paid the price of looking like shit by getting getting his own lightening shot deflected back at himself just to act like he was losing.

Ast Rofan
Quick question....Wendu?

Tulak Hord
The lightning thing was probably just a quick hit that he didn't expect mace to block. Or maybe he knew mace would block it back his way and that would tick off anakin more. But Sids did give mace the fight. Sids would've pimp-slapped Windu if he didn't need Anakin. Sids main goal was to bring Anni to the dark side. After that it was to live to see the creation of the empire.

mace wendu4
But the fact that Wendu did deflect the blast showed that he was more powerful than Sid thought. If Anni hadn't showed up, sid would've been sliced. and what were you gonna say ast rofan?

DeVi| D0do
It's Windu, you moron.

And Palpatine knew Anakin was going to turn up. How many times do we have to go over this?

darthmonkey9206
Originally posted by mace wendu4
But the fact that Wendu did deflect the blast showed that he was more powerful than Sid thought. If Anni hadn't showed up, sid would've been sliced. and what were you gonna say ast rofan?

Sidious had it planned out, he was doing that so anakin would turn to the dark side.

mace wendu4
he had no proof that anakin would turn up at the exact time

Ken Kenobi
Originally posted by mace wendu4
But the fact that Wendu did deflect the blast showed that he was more powerful than Sid thought. If Anni hadn't showed up, sid would've been sliced. and what were you gonna say ast rofan?

He deflected the lightning because he already had his lightsaber up, he probably didn't even know the saber would save him. It was the luck of the moment.

D0do, please don't resort to name calling.

DeVi| D0do
Originally posted by mace wendu4
he had no proof that anakin would turn up at the exact time He knew it was going to happen.

Have you seen the film?

Originally posted by Ken Kenobi
D0do, please don't resort to name calling. aww... but that's all I have. sad

Sorry.

Ken Kenobi
Originally posted by mace wendu4
he had no proof that anakin would turn up at the exact time

He's a very powerful Sith who is always proclaiming he can foresee events unfolding, of course he knew when Anakin would show up.

mace wendu4
even if he had his lightsaber up, it takes alot of strenght to not be blasted away with those blasts. All I know is Mace can kick Sids ass anytime

DeVi| D0do
What proof do you have to back that up?

Everything that happened in that room did so according to Palpatine's plan.

Ken Kenobi
Originally posted by mace wendu4
even if he had his lightsaber up, it takes alot of strenght to not be blasted away with those blasts. All I know is Mace can kick Sids ass anytime

I agree with D0do on this point, there is no proof otherwise. Sidious was probably not using full strength, and sure Mace does have some strength, he's a Jedi.

This is basically your opinion, just like ours are opinions as well. Unless we have a definative answer from George Lucas or Lucasfilm, all we have is our thoughts.

DeVi| D0do
Call me arrogant or contemptuous if you must, but I actually don't care what Lucas says. All that I go by is what it shown on the screen - if something is not shown to be obviously one thing or another then it is left for me, the viewer, to decide what is true. Here, I think it is quite obvious that Palpatine knew exactly what he was doing every step of the way. Of course if someone (Lucas or not) points out to me something that I've missed or something I didn't think about then I may change my mind, but no one has done this yet...

Captain REX
*goes to dig up massive PWNage*

Captain REX
Originally posted by Captain REX
I agree with Dodo. He watched Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, as did I, while everyone else watched Star Wars Episode III-and-a-half: Revenge of the Sith but Not Quite Because Windu Lives and Palpatine Sucks. stick out tongue

Since I AM JEDI is going to ask for it, and not go find the threads regarding Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious... *sigh*

---

A LONG TIME AGO, IN A GALAXY FAR, FAR AWAY...

STAR WARS
EPISODE III
REVENGE OF THE SITH

Palpatine was playing Mace Windu the entire time. Here is my proof, which Devil Dodo was also providing, for you to ignore it was very silly and pointless...

At the start of the fight, Palpatine whips out his lightsaber and in two or three swings, he manages to stab Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, both accomplished swordsmen, Jedi Masters, and Council members. They die in mere seconds after the fight begins. After sparring with Mace and Kit Fisto for a few moments, he manages to slash Kit Fisto across the stomach, and he too is an accomplished swordsman, Jedi Master, and Council member.

Now, Mace Windu goes on the retreat, Palpatine pushing him back.

At this point, we see Anakin debating whether he should be there or not, and he leaves the Temple.

Also at this point, Mace Windu starts to own Palpatine. Why? Because Palpatine can sense Anakin is on his way.

They continue fighting, Mace smashes the window approximately the same time as Anakin's landing. Palpatine loses his lightsaber just seconds before Anakin walks in. Why? Because Palpatine can sense Anakin is in the building.

Mace Windu has Palpatine at lightsaber point, and is ready to kill him. Anakin says that they shouldn't, it's not the Jedi way. Palpatine starts pleading for his life like a cowardly fool, after his face-melting barrage of lightning, but constantly looks to Anakin with an insidious glare after each whiney, begging comment about the Jedi trying to kill him and take over the Republic.

When Anakin takes action and literally disarms Mace Windu, Palpatine springs to his feet as if he had been winning the entire time. Palpatine cooks Mace Windu like a large black sausage, then hurls him out the window. Mace Windu, lacking an arm and in intense pain from the lightning assault, falls to his death, unable to do anything to stop his fall.

Later on, Palpatine fights Yoda. During this fight, they are sparring equally the entire time. Palpatine and Yoda meet one another blow for blow, and though you can tell Palpatine fears Yoda, fear can always be turned to the advantage of a Sith Lord; they feed their powers off of negative emotion. In the end, Yoda is defeated, because Sidious has disarmed his lightsaber and tossed him a very long way to the bottom of the Senate chambers. Sidious, once again, is victorious.

---

Summary: Palpatine easily kills three Jedi Masters, they begins to lose when he senses Anakin leaving the Temple, and then begins his ploy to pull Anakin to the Dark Side by putting his own life at risk.

Yes, he could have lost everything. Yes, Anakin could have not turned, and Mace would have killed Palpatine. Yes, Palpatine put all his plans at great risk to turn the Chosen One to the Dark Side. No, he is not weak. No, Mace Windu did not beat him.

Yup, I'm just going to copy paste this for every damned 'Mace beat Palps because Palps is less powerful!' thread that is posted.

DeVi| D0do
You oughta have that thing framed and put on the welcoming notice board...

JKozzy
Originally posted by mace wendu4
even if he had his lightsaber up, it takes alot of strenght to not be blasted away with those blasts. All I know is Mace can kick Sids ass anytime Apparently not, considering he died.

mace wendu4
he died because he was weakened by losing an arm and he didn't have a lightsaber to help him since he's not strong enough to deflect it with his own hands like yoda.

Tulak Hord
Mace Windu is a pansey. He deserved to die. I hate him for killing Jango.

mace wendu4
jango was cool but mace was better

Darth Calladus
Originally posted by Tulak Hord
Mace Windu is a pansey. He deserved to die. I hate him for killing Jango. WTF ok you have crossed the line with that one.
even he did lose to palpatine, palpatine is a little ***** he shows no back bone. Darth Maul had the attitude the look and the walk(saber skills), i was expecting big things from palpatine. but i was wrong. the duels with yoda and mace were jus lame. Sidious beats the 2 strongest jedi masters in one night................there jus somthing wrong with that

mace wendu4
exactly, palp was a little ***** compared to yoda and mace.

Tulak Hord
Mace was shit.

mace wendu4
mace was awesome and palp was an uglyass pile of bullshit.

Tulak Hord
Palps fooled millions of people and hundreds of star systems for over 12 years.

mace wendu4
deception has nothing to do with fighting skills

Ast Rofan
Originally posted by mace wendu4
exactly, palp was a little ***** compared to yoda and mace.


Ironic, since the ***** beat both of them.

Tulak Hord
Amen Ast.

wannabe
I'd say that Mace is pretty much on par withn Palpatine. The latter is maybe a little more skilled in using the force to create various effects and Windu is the better swordsman.
Using the "Sidious knew that Anakin would come" argument to underline the superiority of Palpatines power can easily be turned into "He had no chance against Windu in a straight fight, BUT since he planned everything to the perfect, it was not that much a risk and even a chance to wait for him and be beaten BECAUSE he knew Anakin would come". From that point of view Mace had the upper hand in the fight, but it also gives Palpatine even more credit for being a masterpowerplayer and schemer, turning a foreseeable defeat into an overwelming triumph.
In the end i guess everyone will interpret this particular confrontation just according to ones characterpreferences.

((The_Anomaly))
*sigh* watch the fight with Yoda.

honestly, it was SO obvious that he had been holding back against Mace.

His abilities were twice as good, he was twice as fast and twice as strong while fighting Yoda.

He lost on purpose, he had it all planned.

either you admit 2 things:

1) Palps was holding back against Windu, givin his preformance against Yoda.

or.

2) you somehow think yoda is less powerful then Windu.

the only way for "mace is better then palps" people to make logical sense is if they admit Mace was stronger then Yoda, and common, how dumb is that.

oh and btw, its WINDU, not wendu...

wannabe
He was not twice as fast or good. The lightsaberfight with Yoda was by no means better or more impressiv than those shown before by other Jedi. It was his mastery of forceeffects that made this confrontation spectacular and the environment, that gave him the opportunity to use them in an effectiv way during this fight. The combat with Mace Windu was one with Lightsabers in a completely different environment (no "sitting-discs" to throw etc.). We all know, that being "the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever" is no guarantee to win a fight ( Anakin-Dooku, Anakin-Kenobi, Vader-Luke, Imperator-beatenVader...). Different Jedi/Sith excell in different aspects of the force and though Sidious may be the the better telekinetic, which we can't know for sure, Mace is the better fighter.
It's hard to tell whether the Jedi-Healer or the Jedi-Scholar or the the Jedi-Fighter is the more powerful, it all depends on the circumstaces...if you know what i want to say.
The only way of knowing for sure, is George Lucas giving us the midichlorian-levels of Palpatine and Windu.

((The_Anomaly))
Originally posted by wannabe
He was not twice as fast or good. The lightsaberfight with Yoda was by no means better or more impressiv than those shown before by other Jedi. It was his mastery of forceeffects that made this confrontation spectacular and the environment, that gave him the opportunity to use them in an effectiv way during this fight. The combat with Mace Windu was one with Lightsabers in a completely different environment (no "sitting-discs" to throw etc.). We all know, that being "the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever" is no guarantee to win a fight ( Anakin-Dooku, Anakin-Kenobi, Vader-Luke, Imperator-beatenVader...). Different Jedi/Sith excell in different aspects of the force and though Sidious may be the the better telekinetic, which we can't know for sure, Mace is the better fighter.
It's hard to tell whether the Jedi-Healer or the Jedi-Scholar or the the Jedi-Fighter is the more powerful, it all depends on the circumstaces...if you know what i want to say.
The only way of knowing for sure, is George Lucas giving us the midichlorian-levels of Palpatine and Windu.

umm no, im pretty sure in the battle with yoda (if you can see) you can tell that palpatines sword abilities are far better then they were while fighting mace. way faster, way more precise.

and no the midi's dont matter, they only account to potential power, not actual power.

lucas would have to blatently tell us that palpatine is better, before the windu lovers would give in.

wannabe
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
umm no, im pretty sure in the battle with yoda (if you can see) you can tell that palpatines sword abilities are far better then they were while fighting mace. way faster, way more precise.

and no the midi's dont matter, they only account to potential power, not actual power.

lucas would have to blatently tell us that palpatine is better, before the windu lovers would give in.

Well, while i'm writing this i'm watching the scene over and over again (thanks to the not exactly legal skills of a friend) and the lightsaberfight isn't getting better the more often i see it...no! Somehow GL manages to never exactly show palpatine doing anything impressive or outstanding...or even usual, now that i have it before my eyes!? Yoda is doing all the work. Ahhh...now the TK-thing starts, well, that is impressive BUT not the issue in your posting.

I agree on the midi thing. But it only proves, that it is ridiculous to use "said to be exact power-levels" to predict or to rationalize the outcome of a fight...that only works on paper, not in a movie or in real life.

I can't stand Mace Windu. He is far too arrogant and stiffy for my taste, but i don't like interpretations that claim to be the only ones that count, especially in cases like epic FANTASY dramas, that give waaay too much room for just one interpretation... like this one (you read my post).

DeVi| D0do
nevermind

Captain REX
Did anyone even READ my repost? Beholder of all things spinach-like, what is wrong with you people?! Read the massive paragraph or die!

Ast Rofan
Originally posted by Captain REX
Did anyone even READ my repost? Beholder of all things spinach-like, what is wrong with you people?! Read the massive paragraph or die!

I read it, and agree. yes




Though Palps didnt jump to his feet, he did the lightning from his back. stick out tongue

Captain REX
The script says 'leaps to life' so hah! stick out tongue

Ast Rofan
The movie says "lazy ass still on ground" so hah hah. stick out tongue

Captain REX
Oh, you said 'hah' twice...damn he's good...

Ast Rofan
Indeed, hah hah hah. stick out tongue

Captain REX
Wha...? Three?! That's not possible!

UNLIMITED POWER! *tries to fry Ast, realizes he's not a Sith* Damn, didn't work...

Ast Rofan
Uh oh, shootin blanks Rex? confused

Captain REX
Yup! Otherwise, you'd be not so non-electrocuted... big grin

Serra_Keto
Wendu... lol. laughing

Captain REX
Yeah, I'm quite clueless as to where he got that spelling.

Aduruth

Captain REX
Quaa? Where the hell did THAT come from?

mace wendu4
Mace is a better sword fighter than palp and thats it so stop fighting the truth.

Tulak Hord
Prove it. I wanna see Sammy Jackson and Ian Mcwhat'shisnameduke it out.

Aduruth
captain rex whats quaa? mean? And the pm i sent you is asking you about to fix that link problem

Captain REX
Originally posted by mace wendu4
Mace is a better sword fighter than palp and thats it so stop fighting the truth.

Back up your silly statement. Stating your opinion is not an argument, and people will step all over you.

"Quaa?" is like Latin for "What?", my girlfriend takes Latin so I've adopted the silly "Quaa?" for my own amusement and her annoyance...

matreid
Originally posted by mace wendu4
Mace is a better sword fighter than palps

From what I could see, Mace wasn't a better swordsman. confused

mace wendu4
Originally posted by Tulak Hord
Prove it. I wanna see Sammy Jackson and Ian Mcwhat'shisnameduke it out.

that would be kinda funny to see S. Jackson and Ian whatever to start punching and kicking each other. Of course Jackson would whoop Ian's ass even worse than he did in the movie.

Tulak Hord
I have one question. Who's Mace Wendu? I know of a Mace Windu that fought Palps, but I've never seen this clone called Wendu...Hmm...maybe Mace took a trip to Kamino...But..it's puzzleing.

mace wendu4
Originally posted by matreid
From what I could see, Mace wasn't a better swordsman. confused

what do u mean!? from what was on the movie screen, which is what u saw, mace was the better swordsman.

mace wendu4
Originally posted by Tulak Hord
I have one question. Who's Mace Wendu? I know of a Mace Windu that fought Palps, but I've never seen this clone called Wendu...Hmm...maybe Mace took a trip to Kamino...But..it's puzzleing.

yeah yeah I misspelled a name and I'm sure im the first person to ever do that for years.

Tulak Hord
But it's funny stick out tongue

matreid
Originally posted by mace wendu4
yeah yeah I misspelled a name and I'm sure im the first person to ever do that for years.

Oh, but you are... you are... no expression

mace wendu4
Originally posted by matreid
Oh, but you are... you are... no expression
you know, you're very weird.

matreid
Originally posted by mace wendu4
you know, you're very weird.

Why thank you! big grin

mace wendu4
even if palp was holding back when fighting mace, mace was also holding back on palp cause he wanted to arrest him not kill him. later on he decided to kill him but anakin's ***** ass showed up and gave him a cheap shot.

Captain REX
Mace may be physically stronger than Palpatine, but Mace is below Yoda, and Sidious defeated Yoda.

Captain REX
I asked Aduruth about that interview...and I should have known, the interview was from good old SS.com.

mace wendu4
Originally posted by Captain REX
Mace may be physically stronger than Palpatine, but Mace is below Yoda, and Sidious defeated Yoda.

Sidious didn't defeat Yoda, he quit even though he wasn't too tired to battle. If they continued, Yoda would've definetely won.

Captain REX
Did you not even WATCH the flippin' movie?!

If Yoda could have won, he would have kept fighting, not disappeared from the Senate Rotunda. Yoda was defeated, and was on the run.

mace wendu4
I don't know why Yoda chose to quit. maybe he doubted himself or whatever but I know he could've beaten him if he got back in the fight.

DeVi| D0do
He quit because he couldn't win. How could it be more obvious?

The Biker Scout
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
He quit because he couldn't win. How could it be more obvious?

AT LAST THE TRUTH BE TOLD....................... wink

Darth Somebody
Mace Wendu, you make some of the most horrible arguments ever. I just wanted that stated clearly.

Ast Rofan
Originally posted by mace wendu4
Mace is a better sword fighter than palp and thats it so stop fighting the truth.

Stop fighting clear logic.

DiamondBullets
Originally posted by Ken Kenobi
He's a very powerful Sith who is always proclaiming he can foresee events unfolding, of course he knew when Anakin would show up.

F'real? How come he didn't see a one-handed apprentice throwing him down an exhaust port?

btw: Mace is probably PHYSICALLY stronger than Sid (force-assisted or not), and woulda straight-schooled him in a tussle.

Ast Rofan
http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/2084/bscap0503er.jpg

Aduruth
Ok for everyone who watched the film, yoda couldve defeated sidious, if it wasn't for the clones, Yoda sensed them and releazed .........dam now i have to deflect blaster fire and fight sidious..... thats a possibility.

*I said couldve defeated sidious not wouldve

Aduruth
and cap. rex the gl interviews are real, but they are stolen, from ss

Darth Somebody
Nice photograph, above. That shows that Sidious had to lunge forward, and impale Mace on his lightsaber. That photo could be used in a debate that Sidious was toying with Mace.

Now, as for the whole Sidious-had-his-Clones-rushing-in-to-help-thing... You do not know if they were on their way. Sidious had no time during the fight to call them in. Mas Amedda was in no hurry to help Sidious. He left the Chancellor's Office in a lethargic pace, obviously to let Yoda and Sidious duke it out.

The clones did show up afterwards - but they could've been called in after Yoda left the building. So until you can show me proof where it shows the Clones coming into interfere in the fight and where Yoda sensed them, don't use it in the argument.

Darth_fury
he was meant to have lightening deflected back at him it was part of his plan as he said in the senate that the jedis attempt upon his life has left him permanently scarred

DiamondBullets
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Nice photograph, above. That shows that Sidious had to lunge forward, and impale Mace on his lightsaber. That photo could be used in a debate that Sidious was toying with Mace.

Now, as for the whole Sidious-had-his-Clones-rushing-in-to-help-thing... You do not know if they were on their way. Sidious had no time during the fight to call them in. Mas Amedda was in no hurry to help Sidious. He left the Chancellor's Office in a lethargic pace, obviously to let Yoda and Sidious duke it out.

The clones did show up afterwards - but they could've been called in after Yoda left the building. So until you can show me proof where it shows the Clones coming into interfere in the fight and where Yoda sensed them, don't use it in the argument.

Read the novel. That ass-kisser, Mas Amedda summoned them. Yoda felt a large and determined human presence headed towards him and the new Emporer and he knew that could only mean one thing...

Aduruth
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Nice photograph, above. That shows that Sidious had to lunge forward, and impale Mace on his lightsaber. That photo could be used in a debate that Sidious was toying with Mace.

Now, as for the whole Sidious-had-his-Clones-rushing-in-to-help-thing... You do not know if they were on their way. Sidious had no time during the fight to call them in. Mas Amedda was in no hurry to help Sidious. He left the Chancellor's Office in a lethargic pace, obviously to let Yoda and Sidious duke it out.

The clones did show up afterwards - but they could've been called in after Yoda left the building. So until you can show me proof where it shows the Clones coming into interfere in the fight and where Yoda sensed them, don't use it in the argument.
Are you really that ignorant, obvoiusly mace would parry sidious' saber away, its just a still photo, i garuntee you if you took a photo on every fight, youd find someway to find that someone couldve been defeated, like in that picture, and still sidious' WOULD prolly know if he lunged in, he could be the one dying.
*and thank you daimond bullets for the novel history.
*MY *opinion* windu had the advantage ***IF*** he WASN'T just there to arrest him, because before sidious uses the lightning windu was there just to arrest him, but after that, he HAD to kill him. But the part we were shown they were evenly matched, and mace got lucky and kiked his sabar away. But still that a 1up for windu no matter how u look at it.
Another opinion was i think that sidious wasnt toying with windu, becuase even if he could forsee the future, he would see anakin would betray him....and dont give me any ....he probably cant c that far into the future. becuase if he could forsee the future, he'd definetly c his own death.
*And to all those people who thought sidious was toying with windu answer this, did or did he not have sidious beat until anakin jumped in?
bUT ANYWAY, ITS ALL WHAT WE THINK.

Darth Somebody
Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Read the novel. That ass-kisser, Mas Amedda summoned them. Yoda felt a large and determined human presence headed towards him and the new Emporer and he knew that could only mean one thing...

The novel. The novel also states that Yoda had his ass handed to him. So if the novel is correct in the case about the Clones - it is also clear that Palpatine defeated Yoda and was more powerful than the Jedi Master.

Got ya there. big grin

Ast Rofan
I bring you proof that Palpatine was toying with.........Wendu(wtf?).

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4269/0062mv.gif

Darth Somebody
Originally posted by Aduruth
Are you really that ignorant, obvoiusly mace would parry sidious' saber away, its just a still photo, i garuntee you if you took a photo on every fight, youd find someway to find that someone couldve been defeated, like in that picture, and still sidious' WOULD prolly know if he lunged in, he could be the one dying.
*and thank you daimond bullets for the novel history.
*MY *opinion* windu had the advantage ***IF*** he WASN'T just there to arrest him, because before sidious uses the lightning windu was there just to arrest him, but after that, he HAD to kill him. But the part we were shown they were evenly matched, and mace got lucky and kiked his sabar away. But still that a 1up for windu no matter how u look at it.
Another opinion was i think that sidious wasnt toying with windu, becuase even if he could forsee the future, he would see anakin would betray him....and dont give me any ....he probably cant c that far into the future. becuase if he could forsee the future, he'd definetly c his own death.
*And to all those people who thought sidious was toying with windu answer this, did or did he not have sidious beat until anakin jumped in?
bUT ANYWAY, ITS ALL WHAT WE THINK.

Are *you* ignorant? Sidious's ability to forsee the future is well beyond that of even Yoda's. But no Force-user is perfect. Yoda did not forsee the destruction of the Jedi, either. Proving that the ability to see events into the future is risky and the results are not always guarenteed. So I agree. Sidious did not forsee his own death. But then again, his ability isn't perfect either.

Sidious implanted the seeds of doubt into Anakin. He revealed his true identity as a Sith Lord, and then hinted that the Dark Side had the power to save Padme from death. He took a gigantic risk - that Anakin was on his way. Both Sidious and Yoda have the ability to feel people through the Force. How do you think Sidious was prepared for the Jedi Masters? He felt them. Not to mention Anakin blatantly told Sidious that he was going to turn him over to Windu and the Council.

Sidious could've very well felt Anakin through the Force. So here is the possible results. Do remember that Sidious struck down three Jedi who were of equal rank to Mace, in less than five seconds. He did it with ease. They were all prepared - but overpowered.

- Sidious slayed the three Jedi Masters and toyed with Mace because he gambled on Anakin's intervention. This move explains that if Anakin did indeed interfere in Sidious's favor, and slay Mace, then he'd have no real choice but to join Sidious. I'm pretty sure the Council wouldn't forgive him for participating in Windu's destruction. So Sidious believed that if he gained sympathy from Anakin, and if Anakin acted against Windu, then the Jedi would be forever closed to him. I have another bit of proof that supports this.

Compare how Yoda and Sidious fought one another. You will see a greater level of intensity, lightsaber power, and Force-usage throughout the entire fight between both combatants. Yoda and Sidious were evenly matched throughout the entire fight, and Sidious fought harder against Yoda than he did against Mace. If you believe that Mace defeated Sidious fair-and-square and without any act of manipulation on Sidious's part, you are also stating that Mace is a superior duelist than Yoda.

- Sidious could've just underestimated Mace. Think about it. If you meet four Jedi Masters, and struck down three with pure ease, if you encroach on the fourth one, won't you feel a bit confidant? A bit at ease? Sidious, I would imagine, could have felt the same. Perhaps he underestimated Mace throughout the duel.

The first theory supports Anakin's arrival. The second does not. The second theory labels Anakin's intervention and presence as sheer coincidence. All in all, it is more logical to indicate that Mace was being hoodwinked by the manipulating and scheming Palpatine.

Afterall. Mace and Yoda were deceived by Sidious this entire time. It is quite logical that even during the fight, the same thing happened again to poor Mace.

Tulak Hord
Omg Ast eek! That was so funny! How do you do that?

Aduruth
well even so, he underestimated him, and lost. which has been the flaw with all sith lords, and thats why they die, windu was the better dueler. and won, you cannot change the fact that sidious lost to windu. you dwell to much into the subject darth somebody, sidious was bested by windu. thats a fact. Im sorry "YOUR SITH LORD" lost to a jedi master.

And yes i beleive windu is a better duelist than yoda(never said force user*) and this is why windu was able to best sidious. and the reason i called that person ignorant was becuase they took a still image of the movie and said"all he had to do was lunge forward" wich was a ridiculous comment. And as gl has stated it a few interviews windu vs. sidious, he says its all how you **would want it to end*** (how the battle went/sidious favor or windu's favor.) and lets be honost this will be an ongoing argument same with yoda vs. sidious, becuase it all deopends how you think the battle was *turned.

Darth Somebody
Originally posted by Aduruth
well even so, he underestimated him, and lost. which has been the flaw with all sith lords, and thats why they die, windu was the better dueler. and won, you cannot change the fact that sidious lost to windu. you dwell to much into the subject darth somebody, sidious was bested by windu. thats a fact. Im sorry "YOUR SITH LORD" lost to a jedi master.

And yes i beleive windu is a better duelist than yoda(never said force user*) and this is why windu was able to best sidious. and the reason i called that person ignorant was becuase they took a still image of the movie and said"all he had to do was lunge forward" wich was a ridiculous comment. And as gl has stated it a few interviews windu vs. sidious, he says its all how you **would want it to end*** (how the battle went/sidious favor or windu's favor.) and lets be honost this will be an ongoing argument same with yoda vs. sidious, becuase it all deopends how you think the battle was *turned.

Y'know what, you're right. Sidious lost to Mace. Then he got back up and turned him into Kentucky Fried Windu. Sorry "YOUR JEDI MASTER" was killed by Sidious. big grin

DiamondBullets
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
The novel. The novel also states that Yoda had his ass handed to him. So if the novel is correct in the case about the Clones - it is also clear that Palpatine defeated Yoda and was more powerful than the Jedi Master.

Got ya there. big grin

True that. The Emporer had Yoda beat in power, pride, and perhaps even athletisism. But the approaching clones are the deciding factor that made Yoda leave---NOT flying Senatorial pods.

Captain REX
Where did it show clonetroopers approaching?

Ast Rofan
Originally posted by DiamondBullets
True that. The Emporer had Yoda beat in power, pride, and perhaps even athletisism. But the approaching clones are the deciding factor that made Yoda leave---NOT flying Senatorial pods.

No, it was the ever important "high ground". big grin

Aduruth
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Y'know what, you're right. Sidious lost to Mace. Then he got back up and turned him into Kentucky Fried Windu. Sorry "YOUR JEDI MASTER" was killed by Sidious. big grin

But see that doesn't bother me, as long as I know Windu defeated Sidious, it does not bother me that he died, becuase all I wanted to prove was that Windu defeated Sidious. smile *Plus Windu was caught off guard by Anakin, and yes Sidious killed Master Windu, but it was done out of disgraceful act, cheating.(not the lightning, I mean the two sith.)


But Darth Somebody I want you to answer this;

Did Sidious or did not Sidious HAVE help to defeat Windu? And if help was not there, would he be alive? wink
_____________________________________________

Sorry "YOUR JEDI MASTER" was killed by Sidious.
- Darth Somebody

And to answer that part, at least, Windu does not have his friends turn on him.(Anakin shouldn't count as a friend, the two never saw eye to eye.) wink

Aduruth
Originally posted by Captain REX
Where did it show clonetroopers approaching?

He possibly could've sensed them, becuase after Yoda is on the ground below, they cut to a scene when there's 4 clones on a podium talking to Sidious saying, they were unable to find his body. smile

But what I don't understand why does everyone say Yoda got his "ass" handed to him, (I actually want an answer, don't be sarcastic.) because what I saw numerous times, Yoda and Sidious were evenly matched, until Sidious used Lightning, and Yoda countered, but the only deciding factor was.......well Height, lol. Yoda was to small to grip anything, on his way down, and if Sidious didn't see that pole he would've fell as far as Yoda. In my opinion it was the fall and the clones that made Yoda leave, but PLEASE, if you have a reason why you think the battle was all Sidious(before the fall.) please describe in full description. smile

Admiral Akbar
Sidious dident know what to expect from Vaapad, the movie clearly shows mace beating him. Anywoo, the fight with him and yoda he did nothing very stellar with a lightsaber, he stood on the senate pod and just defended himself, against yoda. No rapid movements in that fight..
Nor was he pressing or destryong yoda, the key factor to the battle for him was when yoda lost his lightsaber.

Plus, why would he keep mace alive in the first place, he dident need him as a tool, anakin had already decided to learn the ways of the sith.

Captain REX
Most likely, Sidious called them in to search for Yoda after he mysteriously vanished.

Don't bring up Vaapad; it's EU. Not once in the movies does Mace mention his sword style as Vaapad.

Palpatine did not need Anakin's help defeating Windu; if he 'lost' to Windu so fast, why did he last so long against Yoda then, hmm?

Everyone seems to forget that Yoda is stronger in the Force and more skilled than Mace Windu.

tlbauerle
siht daerht skcus sllab, dna fi uoy koot eht emit ot daer siht...uoy od ot.

Grab your decoder rings....

DiamondBullets
Vaapad aint EU. We didnt hear the word--we SAW it. Just cuz say...Yareal Poof wasn't mentioned by name in TPM doesn't mean that isn't his name. C'mon now.

roughrider
Originally posted by DiamondBullets
F'real? How come he didn't see a one-handed apprentice throwing him down an exhaust port?

btw: Mace is probably PHYSICALLY stronger than Sid (force-assisted or not), and woulda straight-schooled him in a tussle.


What the hell does that mean? A straight tussle? If that's how Jedi chose to fight, then anyone could sit on Yoda and wipe their backside with him. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE FORCE - SIZE MATTERS NOT. mad

Captain REX
Vaapad IS EU, Diamond. Don't be foolish; George Lucas did not invent the name or idea of Mace Windu's swordsman style as Vaapad.

Roughrider, no need to type in caps or get angry over Diamond. Not worth it, really.

To answer what roughrider quoted, Mace is certainly physically stronger. But strength doesn't really matter in Star Wars, it seems.

roughrider
Originally posted by Captain REX
Vaapad IS EU, Diamond. Don't be foolish; George Lucas did not invent the name or idea of Mace Windu's swordsman style as Vaapad.

Roughrider, no need to type in caps or get angry over Diamond. Not worth it, really.

To answer what roughrider quoted, Mace is certainly physically stronger. But strength doesn't really matter in Star Wars, it seems.


I know; some people will grasp at any straw to prove something, that's all. Perhaps you should post again your Episode III declaration, to straighten out the WINDU people - again. big grin

DiamondBullets
Originally posted by roughrider
What the hell does that mean? A straight tussle?

Why you scramblin my words for fool?? I said 'straight-schooled in a tussle', in other words he woulda kicked his ass. Or if you prefer formal English: Mr. Windu would have proceeded to intentionally cause bodily harm to Mr.Palpatine.

Captain REX
You could at least type without the 'gangster' accent; accents don't really matter on a message board, so no need to write them. stick out tongue

Windu and Palpatine would never go hand-to-hand, so not really even worth mentioning.

Wow, roughrider liked my declaration! I'm gathering fans, and soon it'll all go to my head! eek!

Aduruth
who said yoda's more skilled with a saber than windu, thats false, but i say yoda is more intune with the force than windu

Captain REX
Yoda is not the head of the Order for nothing. He is the most powerful Jedi in the aspects of swordsmanship and Force-usage.

Paul-Muad'Dib
Well you cannot say that Yoda is more skilled with lightsabre then Mace, because what we see in the movies show that Mace is more skilled, from that point of view Palpatine's believable holding back is irrelevant.

Yes Yoda is the head of the council and most dedicated Jedi, but that does not mean he is more skilled with his lightsabre. He is much stronger in the force than Mace and a lot wiser too, i think especially last thing makes him the head of the council.

I do not know why would Yoda have to be the better swordsman, because in plain sword fight imo the most relevant thing is one's agility and speed, and its also harder for Yoda to fight because of his size ( yes in plain sword fight the size matters).

What considers Mace vs. Palpatine, Mace bested him, although its pretty obvious chancellor was holding back ( someone mentioned that this was a big risk, and with that i agree, Palpatine felt Anakin's inner struggle and he could not be sure that Anakin would help him, untill the time he chop Mace's hand off), my argument for that is lack of using the force powers in their duel.

Yes he uses the lightning but when he is already down, he could have used some force push or throw some chairs and desk at Mace ( i'm pretty sure there were some objects in the room he could use ), but no he had to prepare smth for Anakin, so this was the final push to the darkside, or should i say the point of no return.

Similar case was with Dooku vs. Anakin, Dooku in Episode II and III handles Obi-Wan with ease using the force, but no against Anakin he doesn't even try, so i think Sidious actually told Dooku that he shouldn't kill Anakin (meaning he was holding back), and that he tries to persuade him, to go to the darkside.

Well this debating about who is stronger and stuff is starting to annoy me, because i do not know how can some people be so subjective, that they claim that in Yoda vs. Sidious anyone had the edge, because it was pretty obvious that they were very close in their powers, nevertheless if one is stronger than the other ( i ain't picking none of them, because i simply dont care ), but from this duel we couldn't have got a winner only a looser, because the one who would make the biggest mistake would loose.

P.S. When i'm reading this forum i'm getting the filling that many users are young and i imagine how they play with their SW toys and claiming totaly subjective things about their heroes. I'm not trying to offend no one, but i had to comment this. And also about this misstyping, i mean c'mon its very annoying when i see Anniken, Wendu and other, well you make mistake ok, but don't use that stuff always, please be more accurate about this, its not relevant but its very annoying to me, and i think to others to. I'm just waiting that someone will come up with Mouse Windu, Yoga, Puke, Fun solo and others.

I've just seen all the movies and clone wars animated series so if i do not know some stuff from books, comics and other stuff please do not rip me to pieces, cause i'm just a simple SF fan big grin

DeVi| D0do
uhh... Mace was frickin useless with his saber.

But maybe that's just coz sammy j sucks...

Aduruth
i still disagree, mace is better than yoda in swordsmenship, than yoda, but yoda is miore "intune" with the force and is much wisetr. I really cant bak that up, but I know I've either read it somewhere or its been told to me, but not by any ordinary sw fan, wen i was at a convention.

Ast Rofan
What is with the new opinion everyone has that Mace is a better swordsman than Yoda?

matreid
Mace is worse than Dooku and Yoda was ready to kill the Count easily.

Captain REX
Read it! This is the second time I've posted my argument in here...

Aduruth
Originally posted by matreid
Mace is worse than Dooku and Yoda was ready to kill the Count easily.

im sorry but honestly
where the F*c* did u get that info.

OMG its a movie its how ever you make it out how u want it to beli8eve, my opinion windu beat sidious in saber skills, and yoda lost, ur opinion, sidious "pretended" so please, its how each person veiws it.

matreid
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
uhh... Mace was frickin useless with his saber.

But maybe that's just coz sammy j sucks...

I have to agree with DD.

Did you see Mace in his duel?

He sucks. Mace is not better than Yoda...

Ast Rofan
Originally posted by Aduruth
OMG its a movie its how ever you make it out how u want it to beli8eve,


Take your own advice, stop bitching whenever someone elses opinion clashes with yours.

Aduruth
Originally posted by Ast Rofan
Take your own advice, stop bitching whenever someone elses opinion clashes with yours.

i do take my own advice, so shut uip, im just defending my opinion, becuase some people "*****" about mine, if you freaking look people are "bitching" about my opinion, so i defend it, so why dont you take high-school english class over again and learn how to read a sentence. instead of worrying about grammer and punctuation all the time.

and who the hell r u to tell me to stop "bitching" **EVEN** if i was look at the thread topic, GOD!!!! STOP TRYING TO BE A HERO WEN NONE IS NEEDED. wink

matreid
Originally posted by Aduruth
im sorry but honestly
where the F*c* did u get that info.

It's called an opinion!confused

matreid
And don't dis Ast Rofan, he's way cooler than you!

Ast Rofan
Originally posted by Aduruth
i do take my own advice, so shut uip, im just defending my opinion, becuase some people "*****" about mine, if you freaking look people are "bitching" about my opinion, so i defend it, so why dont you take high-school english class over again and learn how to read a sentence. instead of worrying about grammer and punctuation all the time.

and who the hell r u to tell me to stop "bitching" **EVEN** if i was look at the thread topic, GOD!!!! STOP TRYING TO BE A HERO WEN NONE IS NEEDED. wink

Sorry, being a hero is a talent of mine. Almost comes naturally.


*strikes heroic pose, looks to sky, while standing in front of American flag and heroic music plays*

Captain REX
Here I come, to save the daaaaaaaaaaaaay!

Ast Rofan
Originally posted by matreid
And don't dis Ast Rofan, he's way cooler than you!


Yeah, dont mess with me, I have many followers, all trained in the DarkSide .

Tecnodimerda
Omg, sry i NEED to post now. This whole "Mace's better than Palps" - thing is getting out of hands. I'm sorry but this post will be a bit long i think. First of all, why do so many people think, that Mace defeats Palpatine in Episode III? It's a big, if not a huge mistake to rely on EU too much. GL did not write all those novels and stories of the expanded universe. It's a mere product to keep fans fascinated for the Star Wars phenomena, That's ALL. Normally it is said that GL agrees on all the EU - work. Ok now who's going to believe that? Seriously, if it was written on a book: Not approuved by George Lucas....who do you think would buy that? The EU is mainly about money, not about stories. Anything else would be naive.

I can understand that fans may love new characters, just like Mace Windu. But don't let your love for a certain persona get in the way of being objective. It does hurt to see one's favourite characters die. But it's GL who wrote the script - not the fans. So even if something's not how we would like it to be, we have to accept it.

Now let's get to the hot topic: the saber-duel between the jedi master and the dark lord of the sith. To understand what was going on, we have to look at the entire scene (not just the duel). Anakin and Palpatine discuss the dark side of the force and the Chancellor tells him, that he can save Padme from dying. Anakin at this point has NOT yet chosen to learn the ways of the dark side. He's uncertain. He states to get Palpainte arrested by the jedi council. So he goes away and leaves the sith lord alone. Notice that Palpatine (if his IQ is not somewhere between 10 and 15...) has to assume that within the next minutes, a few jedi will arrive to (at least) arrest him - if not kill him. So what does he do? Run? No apparently not. He stays in his office, sitting on his chair, waiting for the jedi.

Tecnodimerda
Then we see Mace and the others rushing through corridors to Palpatines office - while Anakin's waiting in the chambers of the jedi council. He's staring out of the window to Padme's appartment. Should he wait till Palpatine is arrested and lose the possibility to save his loves wife? Or should be turn his back on everything he learned in his life, the jedi order - betray all the jedi and his best friend: Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Mace has arrived at Palpatine's office, the chancellor turning slowly towards them. It's time to arrest the evil sith lord - well according to Mace Windu. But Palpatine refues to be arrested and draws his lightsaber. With amazing speed he jumps in the air and hurls his body towards the jedi. Within mere seceonds he kills two of them. Let's keep in mind that we are talking not about regular jedi - but about council members (as stated by a member of this forum earlier). To assume that all of them are just weak (and Yoda/Mace are the only skilled jedi on the council) would be very naive.
Palpatine fights Mace and Kit Fisto. He parries two blow from the two jedi masters and the slices Fisto in half. That leaves just mace and him.
Meanwhile Anakin has decided his fate: He will go to the chancellor's office. Palpatine desperatly wants Anakin as his new apprentice. One of his arguments before Anakin left was: You're not sure of their intention (regarding the council). He wants Anakin to make a choice of his own (to join the sith) and help him in his fight AGAINST the jedi. Therefore he MUST expect Anakin to return (again assuming that our beloved Sith Lord's doesn't suffer from grave imbecility...) Remember he uses the dark side of the force. He may not be able to feel emotions like love but sure he feels fear and anger.
The Fight rages on. Palps parries a few blow while jumping around a bit. The speed is impressive. Always pointing the saber directly at Mace's chest as if he wanted to stab him any second. Mace fights very well too. Without any doubt he has the bigger body strenght (he the close up as the sabers clash!).
Anakin arrives and rushes to the office while Mace and Palps break the window. Palps waits - his attacks become very slow and he takes more time before he strikes (see the scene where palps actually gets to his knees for a few seconds very slowly slashing at mace's upper body...)

Tecnodimerda
Suddenly Mace kicks Palpatine's saber out of his hand -- just as Anakin enters the room. The timing could be better.
Anakin argues with Mace about arresting Palps, while Mace would like to kill the evil sith immediately. In an outburst of anger Palps uses force lightning. Luckily for Mace it hits his saber and is deflected. Anakin and Mace are both supprised by the display of power. And that's exactly what it is: Palpatine DISPLAYS his power: not to kill Mace. But to show Anakin his earlier mentioned power.
Then it's show time: Palps face is melting, he pleads for mercy apparently getting weaker. He now speeks to Anakin about the jedi beeing traitors and how to jedi are going to kill him if Anakin doesn't help. Anakins turns to Windu trying to argue. NOW: Take a good look at Palpatine's eyes. As soon as he tells Anakin something he looks at him and awaits his reaction. He doesn't care about Mace at all. His focus is on the chosen one. This repeats twice (probably just in case that some spectators share the trouble of having an 10 - 15 point IQ... *g*)
Anakin's turned: He cuts of Mace's arm. Palpatine grins and than blasts a huge wave of force lightning against the jedi master. Mace's hurled outside the window. While Anakin's shocked by his actions Palpatine gets to his feet without any trouble - doesn't looking weak at all.

has no idea of SW at all watched the movieAnd just BTW: My sister and my girlfriend, who both have no idea of SW at all, watched it. You know what both said right after the movie about their favourite scene? They said they loved the way Sidious was playing with Mace and waiting for Anakin's reaction. They found the yellowish eyes kinda scary but liked the Palpatines look to Anakin during the "fight".

Please forgive me those long posts but it's getting really annoying with all the disappointed Mace Windu - fans.

DeVi| D0do
Whoa, that's a lot of writing...

Wanna just give me the jist of it? so I know wether or not I have to read all of it... stick out tongue

You think Mace is or isn't stronger than Palpatine?

Tecnodimerda
lol i know

smile

Well i think that Palpatine is indeed more powerful: with the lightsaber as in terms of using the force. For me (and as it seems for a majority of other people) it's obvious that Palpatine is VERY powerful: In times when the jedi order is fully integrated in a republic, he manages so hide his true identity from EVERY jedi. He unfolds his masterly thought out plan during the time of years. Not even Master Yoda senses the dark side around him.

His fight against Yoda shows, that he and the green one are even with the saber. For me Yoda has always been the most powerful jedi ever. Yoda's skill with the saber and his force powers are IMO more than well shown in the movies. I really have trouble seeing why Windu shoud be better with the saber if you watch the movies (unless there's some fancy EU - Book saying otherwise...well see my post above...)

Just for fun now my personal rankings after the prequels:

1. Darth Sidious / Yoda
(Sidious has the advantage cause yoda underestimated him. Yoda flees to save himself: a wise choice showing his superiority over other jedi)
2. Mace Windu
3. Obi-Wan Kenobi
I don't want to say that he's clearly better than Anakin. But his greatest strenght is his calm and his wisdom - not his skil with the saber.
the duel on mustafar: Anakin and him were equal. It was his superior experience that helped him survive.
4. Anakin Skywalker
The Chosen One. He has the biggest potential of all the jedi (and sith).
If he didn't turn to the dark side, he would be better than yoda, sidious and mace together after a few more years of training....

DeVi| D0do
Yup, I totally agree with you , Tec. big grin

((The_Anomaly))
i also agree

((The_Anomaly))
Rex, this is so amazingly good. Finally, someone put it into plain english so everyone can understand...

you cannot dispute this, it is indeed so obviously true...

i think this thread is done upon reading this...

bravo.

Captain REX
For someone who has only posted 7 times on KMC, most of them here, Tec seems to know what he's taking about.

Haha, thanks Anomaly. I've been posting it in just about every 'Mace Wins, Palps Sucks!' thread...

mysterio69
i wonder what anakin's reaction would've been had he walked in a saw palpy duelling it out with mace rather than lying there helpless.

matreid
Originally posted by mysterio69
i wonder what anakin's reaction would've been had he walked in a saw palpy duelling it out with mace rather than lying there helpless.

And if he saw the three dead bodies lopped on the floor.

Captain REX
And the fact that Palpatine is evil. stick out tongue

Aduruth
To answer your last couple posts, rex, I don't think sidious sucked, on the contrary, Heck i think hes in the tops 3 of the sith lords(including vader as first wink ) but i just look at it in a different angle, its just that u see it one way, and ill always see it the other way. wink

Aduruth
Originally posted by matreid
And don't dis Ast Rofan, he's way cooler than you!

Oh! I'M SORRY COOLNESS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN AN ANSWER! LOL wink

Aduruth
Originally posted by matreid
It's called an opinion!confused

o and to answer yours wen u said dooko is far better than windu, i thought u were stating it as fact, but if its an opinion thats kewl.

matreid
Originally posted by Aduruth
Oh! I'M SORRY COOLNESS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN AN ANSWER! LOL wink

Well maybe I think it is!schmoll






stick out tongue

Aduruth
lol, whater, lol wink well back to the thread, anyone else wanna state their opinion, lol.

Captain REX
Ooookay then...

Ast Rofan
Originally posted by Aduruth
lol, whater, lol wink well back to the thread, anyone else wanna state their opinion, lol.


My opinion, Palpatine was toying with Mace. big grin

Captain REX
My opinion, Ast is completely right, go read my argument or die.

DeVi| D0do
My opinion, I agree with Ast and Rex and Anomaly and Tec.

Captain REX
But mostly Rex, right? big grin

DeVi| D0do
But of course cool

DiamondBullets
I think that if Mace went solo(just like Yoda and Obiwan) he would have faired much better agianst Palpatine. "Your partner can be as much as a danger and a distraction to you as to your enemy."- Kungfu saying.

Those other 3 Masters shoulda just stayed at the Temple and help attempt to fend of Lord Vader and his legion of clones...I doubt they woulda made a difference, but still.....

Lord SlyFox
What a lot of you prob dont know is that mace is/ was the most powerful Jedi fighter ever, even more powerful that Yoda. Yep thats right!!! Now why is that?
Mace actually tapped into the dark force! Thats right! Mace developed his own unique fighting style using the dark side, he channeled his anger into his light saber. He was developing a new form of Jedi understanding that Yoda discovered when Sids beat him.
The Jedi forsake emotions in order to become one with the force, that way the force can direct you unimpeded by your erratic emotions. the Sith were defeated thousands of years ago, much to their surprise. In the course of all that time they adapted their understanding of the force to include self desire, (or self love - which ultimately becomes pride). That self love gave The dark lord enough power to defeat Yoda.
Yoda now understood that love, (friendship, brotherhood so on) should now be incorporated into the Jedi philosophy, but now to late, as Annikin never received the love he needed from them but got some of that, However twisted from Palpatine.
Palpatine was completely surprised and unprepared to face a Jedi using the dark side. Mace was going to destroy Palp in anger, which was very un-Jedi like. Mace used his anger and deflected palps attack back to him!!! Palpatine was disfigured by Maces reversing his attack. Palp was indeed badly injured almost died!!!!
this is what makes this a tragic story, it was Annikin who let Palpatine live, he decided between the Jedi and Palpatine, between brotherhood of Jedi and the Love of his wife, between the equanimity of being one with the force and being one with oneself. Thats what makes this a great story, almost shapespearain in that Annikin was torn apart by everybody, the dark side, his wife, the jedi, and his own desires which Palpatine understood too well and encourage this Breakdown of the poor kids Psyche. he was the only one who encourage him to have self love and to seek for what he wanted.
That is what yoda discovered much too late, they did not invest in Annikens pesonality they were using him like a tool, (except for his mentor who trully did love him, which caused some consternation among the council). The Jedi Missed the point that Love is a great power as well, (the Jedi would match people together based on their power not on whether they loved each other, and jedi could only marry other jedi who are chosen for them!)
This self love or Pride is what gave the dark Sith renewed power, before it was only evil, serve the dark force, use anger and hate as a weapon and be consumed by the dark force, But they lost. The New Sith understood PASSION!, Mace understood PASSION and thats why he could fight and defeat Palpatine because he used the same power that Palpatine had!!!!
Palpatine defeated Yoda with Passion, and now yoda regrets not understanding that without the passion of love the Jedi could never defeat the New and Improved Sith!!! with passion for self love, desire, Lust and pride opposites of love of others, sacrifice and self discovery.
truly a great story indeed, by the way its all in the book!
Let me know what you think!

Darth Subjekt
I didn't even read past the first sentence cause that was so horribly wrong that I couldn't make myself read more of it. Glad you can come up with unorthodox theories, but just no...

Not being a dick, though...

queeq
Hmmm... what shall I do with this thread? evil face

Count Makashi
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Not being a dick, though...

You are a dick. stick out tongue

queeq
Ah.... name calling. Now I know. CLOSING.

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