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no power cosmic, they're sitting in a locked room on chairs at a table, staring at each. just ss brain v xavier's brain. i have some on here telling me ss is an omega level telepath. i'm skeptical because the ability for some reason, doesn't manifest very often - if at all. so, what do you all think - who walks out of the room?

Until I see some actual proof on surfers mental abilities...Im going with the proffesor on this.

During the whole "Galactus made a shield around earth so SS can't leave" phase of his existence, I don't remember Marvel retconn-ing Xavier's title as "Earth's Most Powerful Telepath." So yeah, I'm not sure who thinks Surfer would beat him, but telepathy is Xavier's thing. A few days locked in a room (wit no other abilities) and Surfer would be bowing to the Prof ("Norin, use your matter manipulation to make my legs work again....and make me a ham sandwich b*tch!"...Hehe.

-DM

Do you lot even realise what omega level means? Its a mutant state so SS cant be omega level. Not even Xavier is an omega level telepath because he is not an omega level mutant. Xavier is an alpha mutant. The only confirmed omega level mutants are iceman, rachel grey, elixir, quentin quire and i think thats it. Heres a small thread on the matter:


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f49/t356137.html

Anyway back to the battle. Xaviers the better telepath from what has been displayed in the comicss so i believe he'd take this.

yeah...Xavier gots brains power....ya feel me wickedph

xavier wins this. Hes the main guy at Marvel in that particular powerset.

Originally posted by olympian
xavier wins this. Hes the main guy at Marvel in that particular powerset.

yeah I concur yo...wickedph

prof x has problems with aliens expecially a guy who has a will that no one can match

Xavier wins. I don't know too much about Norin but I'd have to say Professor X wins just cause he's proven that he's a beast with telepathy.

<<Do you lot even realise what omega level means? Its a mutant state so SS cant be omega level. Not even Xavier is an omega level telepath because he is not an omega level mutant. Xavier is an alpha mutant. The only confirmed omega level mutants are iceman, rachel grey, elixir, quentin quire and i think thats it. Heres a small thread on the matter:>>

hmm, interesting, gs. thanks for the info. i THOUGHT you needed to be a mutant, but that term was likely used only to explain that ss was a strong telepath and may not have been meant to be taken literally. and i thought there were 12 omegas?

While surfer only has low level TP, his will is almost unbreakable. Hell, he's used willpower to beat Mephisto in his own realm. I don't see Surfer doing anything to the Professor, but I don't see the professor beating Surfer as easily as some people may think.

<<While surfer only has low level TP, his will is almost unbreakable.>>

that i can at least accept.

Mind controlling the Earth, without Cerebro...

Surfer, that is...

hmm, that seems more empathic. he imbued them with a sense of his peace. he didn't appear to 'control' anyone, just made them feel peaceful.

but its the opening narrative box that intrigues me:

"for an all-too brief moment he bathes the planet below with the resultant energies"

resultant energies?

so . . ., 1) he made this empathic connection for only a moment, and i suspect it had no lasting effects, and 2) what were these energies he is using a result OF? sounds like they came from outside ss and he used them to enable him to perform this feat.

need more context. btw, what issue?

Originally posted by leonidas


need more context. btw, what issue? vol. 3 #133 I think.

thanks snoop, i should have that. i'll check.

Originally posted by leonidas
thanks snoop, i should have that. i'll check. I know I have it but I dont feel like digging it out.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Mind controlling the Earth, without Cerebro...

Surfer, that is...


Awww...Surfie cares!!!!

It does seem empathic and brief. I don't see any mind control however.

I've only known Surfer using passive telepathybut he's read hulks mind while in Hulk form, and was able to revert him back....that's semi offensive.

Don't think either can do much to either.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, that seems more empathic. he imbued them with a sense of his peace. he didn't appear to 'control' anyone, just made them feel peaceful.

but its the opening narrative box that intrigues me:

"for an all-too brief moment he bathes the planet below with the resultant energies"

resultant energies?

so . . ., 1) he made this empathic connection for only a moment, and i suspect it had no lasting effects, and 2) what were these energies he is using a result OF? sounds like they came from outside ss and he used them to enable him to perform this feat.

need more context. btw, what issue?

Empathy is a form of mind control, no? He controlled every sentient being on the planet. The emotion was love.

The outcome of the energy that Surfer released was the feeling of love.

'All too brief' is a relative term. Everyone on the face of the planet feeling love for any period of time would be considered brief, in comparison to the way they usually feel.

Surfer once KOed Hulk with telepathy. His telepathy isn't as low level and passive as everyone assumes.

Silver Surfer #133

damn, snoop, you're the man! and ss never controlled ANYONE'S mind! wtf, cc? did you read the issue? he wanted to show the people of earth what peace might be like so using 'every iota of his raw, elemental power' he tapped into the universe's quantum energies and showed them an image (which i admit he must have placed in their minds) of what a peaceful earth might be like. the people thought it was wonderful.

he didn't control anyone! where did you get that idea from? i suppose he tapped quantum energies because of the uncertainty of it - he basically showed them a peek from a 'what if the earth knew peace' universe.

controlled all the minds on earth? and THAT'S why you think he's an omega level telepath?

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Awww...Surfie cares!!!!

It does seem empathic and brief. I don't see any mind control however.

Your point? Professor X would need to use Cerebro to telepathically connect with everyone in the US. I realize you don't particularly care for the Silver Surfer, but don't downplay the feat.

Originally posted by leonidas
damn, snoop, you're the man! and ss never controlled ANYONE'S mind! wtf, cc? did you read the issue? he wanted to show the people of earth what peace might be like so using 'every iota of his raw, elemental power' he tapped into the universe's quantum energies and showed them an image (which i admit he must have placed in their minds) of what a peaceful earth might be like. the people thought it was wonderful.

he didn't control anyone! where did you get that idea from? i suppose he tapped quantum energies because of the uncertainty of it - he basically showed them a peek from a 'what if the earth knew peace' universe.

controlled all the minds on earth? and THAT'S why you think he's an omega level telepath?

Empathy is a form of mind control. The text on the page speaks against what you are saying, leo.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Your point? Professor X would need to use Cerebro to telepathically connect with everyone in the US. I realize you don't particularly care for the Silver Surfer, but don't downplay the feat.

Believe it or not, I'm being completely neutral here. Are you?

I'm not denying it's a nice feat...BUT, it's not mind control CC.

In a room together as the thread implies, X would beat Surfer. Give the man his credit. SS would own him every other way.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Believe it or not, I'm being completely neutral here. Are you?

I'm not denying it's a nice feat...BUT, it's not mind control CC.

In a room together as the thread implies, X would beat Surfer. Give the man his credit. SS would own him every other way.

What is empathy, if it is not a form of mind control? He didn't turn the Earth into his mindslaves, but he controlled what was in their minds by telepathic communication. Empathy.

Mind. Control.

Sorry if I falsely accused you of bias. Your "The Silver Surfer is the most overrated character in comicdom" threads can be quite misleading.

X needs Cerebro to pull off a feat like that. Point proven.

Surfer can focus his energy into any of his powers to greatly augment them. Telepathy is an option.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Surfer can focus his energy into any of his powers to greatly augment them. Telepathy is an option.

And who is sounding biased now?

Cube, I know you are better than this.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
And who is sounding biased now?

Cube, I know you are better than this.

What are you talking about?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
That's one of it's definitions. In terms of extrasensory perception, it means controlling and understanding another's emotions. Which is exactly what Sufer did. To the entire Earth.

Hypnosis is mind control.

You are making an argument based on nothing more than your opinion.

Empathy has never had anything to do with true mind control..You are the one making up your own definitions. Mine is straight from the dictionary.

2 humans can be empathic towards each other without any kind of telepathy. Micheal Jackson controls the attention of thousands of screaming fans, even making many faint..does that mean he can beat Xavier in mind combat?

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Empathy has never had anything to do with true mind control..You are the one making up your own definitions. Mine is straight from the dictionary.

2 humans can be empathic towards each other without any kind of telepathy. Micheal Jackson controls the attention of thousands of screaming fans, even making many faint..does that mean he can beat Xavier in mind combat?
but micheal Jackson uses words

SS used his cosmic power to change people feeling, all organic life.

Even the bad ones

He was able to connect with all life on earth that alone is a huge up for SS mental powers

Empathy is a crappy power, the only good uses are old comic Raven's emotion steal which makes her enemies not care lol, and emma DeLauro's (tv mutant X) "psychic bombs" but her powers have some TP edge to them

I think that if you left the two of them alone for days on end, X is going to win (if his body doesn't give out first). Alien minds are different to Xavier, but they're not impossible to get into. He's done mass mind manipulation to aliens off world in the past. Sure SS has an almost indomitable will, but you're talking about the master of the mind taking his time to peel away Norrin's mind bit by bit. Surfer isn't as adept at TP as Xavier is, so his his defenses won't be as formidable as Xavier's. X just knows his way around the mind more.

Is SS's will indomitable like Tessa's, im thinkin if it works like that Professor X might hav the upper hand, unless Tessa's mind is impossible to penetrate... I don't know if it has to do with force of will or wutevr

<<What is empathy, if it is not a form of mind control? He didn't turn the Earth into his mindslaves, but he controlled what was in their minds by telepathic communication. Empathy.>>

communication is not mind control, nor is it empathy. and your interpretation may not necessarily be the only one. i don't think i explained very well what i thought was happening in that scene. i see it as ss showing the world what the earth could be like. when they saw that, each person felt peace. ss did not compel them to show peace. to me, it is akin to him showing them pictures of their loved ones. of course they'll feel love when they look at the pics, but he didn't MAKE/ CONTROL them to have that feeling. he just showed the pic and let their feelings take their natural course. the other thing - we don't know EVERYONE in the world was affected.

and that is one HELL of a leap to make from here to ss being able to look into capt marvel's mind and predict a lightning attack! no cannot possibly make that assumption based on this scene.

i stand by my assertion ss has passive telepathic powers. i have seen nothing that convinces me he could launch a mental assault on anyone, or read the minds/wills of others. he might be resistant to psionics, and be able to control his board, he can even apparently touch minds with others and share a . . . vision. but that's lightyears away from what you were saying he might be able to do.

Where was Surfer when he showed everyone that image. Was he on or off the planet?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<What is empathy, if it is not a form of mind control? He didn't turn the Earth into his mindslaves, but he controlled what was in their minds by telepathic communication. Empathy.>>

communication is not mind control, nor is it empathy. and your interpretation may not necessarily be the only one. i don't think i explained very well what i thought was happening in that scene. i see it as ss showing the world what the earth could be like. when they saw that, each person felt peace. ss did not compel them to show peace. to me, it is akin to him showing them pictures of their loved ones. of course they'll feel love when they look at the pics, but he didn't MAKE/ CONTROL them to have that feeling. he just showed the pic and let their feelings take their natural course. the other thing - we don't know EVERYONE in the world was affected.

and that is one HELL of a leap to make from here to ss being able to look into capt marvel's mind and predict a lightning attack! no cannot possibly make that assumption based on this scene.

i stand by my assertion ss has passive telepathic powers. i have seen nothing that convinces me he could launch a mental assault on anyone, or read the minds/wills of others. he might be resistant to psionics, and be able to control his board, he can even apparently touch minds with others and share a . . . vision. but that's lightyears away from what you were saying he might be able to do.

Communication is not mind control. Empathy is. Controlling another's emotions is mind control.

So, basically you're telling me that the energy that Surfer released did not result in everyone on the Earth's emotions being changed? You're speaking directly against the narration. You're telling me that introducing everyone in the world to the same image would result in everyone feeling the same emotion? Where do you see anything that alludes to images, loved ones, or anything that you've mentioned? Everyone doesn't have loved ones. Everyone doesn't feel love.

You're coming up with all of these absurd assertions, when the proof is in the pudding. The narration states that the energy, (not 'images') blanketed every man woman and child on the face of the Earth in a rapture. The energy released affected the minds and controlled the emotions on everyone on the planet.

The Surfer can use invasive telepathy as well. He did it to Hulk. His telepathy isn't as passive as you would like to believe. If his mind is powerful enough to connect with every other mind on the planet, he's more than powerful enough to go head to head with Charlie.

Charles wouldn't even be able to affect the Silver Surfer. He is unable to use telepathy on shapeshifters and intangibles. Surfer is both.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where was Surfer when he showed everyone that image. Was he on or off the planet?

Apparently he was above the Earth.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Apparently he was above the Earth.

In that case Prof X could have done the same thing. The only reason he would require Cerebros assistance on Earth is because of Magnetos manipulations of the electro-magnetic field on Earth. Prior to these manipulations Xavier in an effort to fend off the Z'Nox linked with all minds on the planet and gathered their psionic might to project at the armada. That was without Cerebro if i recall correctly.

Didnt SS use resultant quantum energies just to project an image into peoples minds. So he never did it with his own psionic might and he did it from outside the atmosphere where it would have been easier to do.

SS doesnt have the psionic skills to take Xavier in a psychic battle. It is not a power SS uses primarily.

Originally posted by kgkg
but micheal Jackson uses words

SS used his cosmic power to change people feeling, all organic life.

Even the bad ones

He was able to connect with all life on earth that alone is a huge up for SS mental powers

He made them feel good, but this is not telepathy, it's empathy. Its by no means proof that he could use this in battle.

Is there any proof of surfer truly mind controlling someone?

If so, this is a trick that any good human storyteller can achieve with a wide audience.

<<Communication is not mind control. Empathy is. Controlling another's emotions is mind control.

So, basically you're telling me that the energy that Surfer released did not result in everyone on the Earth's emotions being changed? You're speaking directly against the narration. You're telling me that introducing everyone in the world to the same image would result in everyone feeling the same emotion? Where do you see anything that alludes to images, loved ones, or anything that you've mentioned? Everyone doesn't have loved ones. Everyone doesn't feel love.

You're coming up with all of these absurd assertions, when the proof is in the pudding. The narration states that the energy, (not 'images') blanketed every man woman and child on the face of the Earth in a rapture. The energy released affected the minds and controlled the emotions on everyone on the planet.

The Surfer can use invasive telepathy as well. He did it to Hulk. His telepathy isn't as passive as you would like to believe. If his mind is powerful enough to connect with every other mind on the planet, he's more than powerful enough to go head to head with Charlie.

Charles wouldn't even be able to affect the Silver Surfer. He is unable to use telepathy on shapeshifters and intangibles. Surfer is both.>>

HA! I'M going against the narration??! I'M coming up with absurd assertions!? show me ANYWHERE in the narrative where it says the word MIND even one time! ss HIMSELF says 'perhaps i can SHOW the people of this world a way to help themselves'. then he opens a doorway into the quantum world and taps QUANTUM ENERGIES (not telepathic/psionic energies) and blankets the people with . . . what? that's what we're debating. i think it was a beautiful image of a peaceful world.

BUT nowhere does it say exactly WHAT he SHOWED them, but whatever it was it made them feel happy. he SHOWED them (ss words) something that made them joyous. NOWHERE does it even say he touched anyone's mind!! he blanketted them with energy and they saw what they saw. again, i believe he offered them a glimpse of a better world, and they thought it was wonderful. he didn't even use EMPATHY - he showed them and let the image speak for itself.

and i used the images of loved ones as an example - i never said he SHOWED them loved ones.

and where/when has he used this 'invasive' telepathy?

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
He made them feel good, but this is not telepathy, it's empathy. Its by no means proof that he could use this in battle.

Is there any proof of surfer truly mind controlling someone?

If so, this is a trick that any good human storyteller can achieve with a wide audience.
Forced empathy

Let’s say I don't like M Jackson.

His songs is not going to get my house rockin


SS was able to change the heart of all organic life ( a a breaif moment) and allowyed them to see the thruth

it's not really mind control but having power to effect that many minds ( on a planet with so many life)

that is a huge feat even for some like prof x

Originally posted by kgkg
Forced empathy

Let’s say I don't like M Jackson.

His songs is not going to get my house rockin


SS was able to change the heart of all organic life ( a a breaif moment) and allowyed them to see the thruth

it's not really mind control but having power to effect that many minds ( on a planet with so many life)

that is a huge feat even for some like prof x

Reading more into this...It seems like Leo is right.
It says in the panel "resultant energies" what type of energy is it? It doesnt say anything about psychic.

Until I see further proof, this is nothing more than the equivalent of a cosmic woodstock.

I want to see actual mind control.

<<SS was able to change the heart of all organic life>>

that's just it kg - he DIDN'T change their hearts. he offered them something, showed them something. that 'something' he showed them was enough to let them know peace. he didn't FORCE peace on them, didn't in anyway CONTROL them to know peace, didn't even imbue them with HIS OWN sense of peace (as would be the case with empathy) he merely offered them a picture (at least imho it was a picture or image) of what a beautiful world could be and let the image speak for itself.

and he used quantum energy to do this, not psychic/telepathic.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<SS was able to change the heart of all organic life>>

that's just it kg - he DIDN'T change their hearts. he offered them something, showed them something. that 'something' he showed them was enough to let them know peace. he didn't FORCE peace on them, didn't in anyway CONTROL them to know peace, didn't even imbue them with HIS OWN sense of peace (as would be the case with empathy) he merely offered them a picture (at least imho it was a picture or image) of what a beautiful world could be and let the image speak for itself.

and he used quantum energy to do this, not psychic/telepathic.

I think Leo is right as usual

ah, shucks . . .

thanks whirly!

Mind controlling someone against their will is not in Surfer's character. Regardless, effecting the mind of every being on Earth is impressive and presently out of Prof X's league without Cerebro. This doesnt mean X woulnd beat SS in this contest, but I think a lot of u r hating on SS as usual.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Mind controlling someone against their will is not in Surfer's character. Regardless, effecting the mind of every being on Earth is impressive and presently out of Prof X's league without Cerebro. This doesnt mean X woulnd beat SS in this contest, but I think a lot of u r hating on SS as usual.

Wynndar didnt u read my post? SS linked with all those minds from outside the atmosphere so he was beyond Mags manipulations. Prior to Mags' manipulations Prof X linked with all of earths people and gathered their psionic might to fight an alien armada.

Do u really think it has to be THAT literal? Do u think that writer was even aware of the MAgneto/Prof X conflict? I doubt it and just think it was a coincidence. Regardless, was Prof X actually MIND CONTROLLING anyone in that example?

<<Mind controlling someone against their will is not in Surfer's character. Regardless, effecting the mind of every being on Earth is impressive and presently out of Prof X's league without Cerebro. This doesnt mean X woulnd beat SS in this contest, but I think a lot of u r hating on SS as usual.>>

more importantly than gs' post, did you/have you even read the issue we're discussing? if you did, perhaps YOU can tell me where it mentions he used ANY sort of mental discipline to do what he did, (as opposed to the quantum energies it states plainly he used) or perhaps YOU can tell me where it says ANYTHING about ANYBODY'S MIND being touched or in anyway affected by the surfer directly, as opposed to them being affected by what they were shown. if you read the issue and can clear these things up for me, i'd appreciate it.

if you HAVEN'T read it, keep you're hatin' comments to yourself.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Do u really think it has to be THAT literal? Do u think that writer was even aware of the MAgneto/Prof X conflict? I doubt it and just think it was a coincidence. Regardless, was Prof X actually MIND CONTROLLING anyone in that example?

No Prof X linked with all of those minds and harnessed their psionic energy. SS on the other hand used resultant quantum energies to place an image in peoples minds. So not only was that not through psionic might, but it was also from outside the atmosphere where psionic power isnt inhibited and just placing an image in thoe minds isnt as impressive as harnessing the combined power of all of those minds.

Well I dont think anyone on here makes sure they own and thoroughly read every issue and comic book event that they make a comment on. Thats ridiculous to imply. I can make an assesment based on what I know and what Ive seen. Dont get mad just cuz I dont agree with u. Anyway, I wasnt drawing any rock hard conclusions about anything, I even suggested Prof X would win.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No Prof X linked with all of those minds and harnessed their psionic energy. SS on the other hand used resultant quantum energies to place an image in peoples minds. So not only was that not through psionic might, but it was also from outside the atmosphere where psionic power isnt inhibited and just placing an image in thoe minds isnt as impressive as harnessing the combined power of all of those minds.

Yea, that makes sense and I agree.

dude, you implied by your comment that i was hater just because i was going against ss, here. i just disagree with some people's interpretation of the scene we're discussing. you can't fairly comment on it if your haven't read it is all. no worries.

I didnt say anything about u personally Leo...that is ridiculous. I didnt even pay particular attention to anything u said. I was noticing all the people on the first page who dismissed the idea of SS even giving Prof X a fight. I hardly interpreted the scene either. I talked about the character of the surfer...and I also suggested X would win.

<<I didnt say anything about u personally Leo...that is ridiculous. I didnt even pay particular attention to anything u said. I was noticing all the people on the first page who dismissed the idea of SS even giving Prof X a fight. I hardly interpreted the scene either. I talked about the character of the surfer...and I also suggested X would win.>>

cool, then. 'pologies for comin' down harder than i should have.

Those "resultant energies could be the equivalent to a worldwide hookah hit. Think about it: everybody's all at peace and happy and loving one another and crap...Surfer could have affected them biologically, not necessarily psychically...

I'm not saying that I believe it, but it could happen...

I think wynndar was just commenting on the anti-surfer comments that are around in this forum. Well, it isn't anti-surfer it's just his balls get busted a lot.
Don't think he was saying you personally were biased.

I think the extent of Surfer mental abilities are quasi-offensive at best, but normally very passive.

<<I think wynndar was just commenting on the anti-surfer comments that are around in this forum. Well, it isn't anti-surfer it's just his balls get busted a lot.
Don't think he was saying you personally were biased.
I think the extent of Surfer mental abilities are quasi-offensive at best>>

in retrospect, i agee with you. he just posted right after me, so . . .

anyways, nice to see you agree with ME for a change.

Oh, I usually do, but I hide it well....

thanks bud.

later

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Reading more into this...It seems like Leo is right.
It says in the panel "resultant energies" what type of energy is it? It doesnt say anything about psychic.

Until I see further proof, this is nothing more than the equivalent of a cosmic woodstock.

I want to see actual mind control.

If the energy affected their minds... hmmm.

Even if Surfer 'merely' connected with every sentient being on the Earth, does that display low level telepathy? Honestly, folks.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Communication is not mind control. Empathy is. Controlling another's emotions is mind control.

So, basically you're telling me that the energy that Surfer released did not result in everyone on the Earth's emotions being changed? You're speaking directly against the narration. You're telling me that introducing everyone in the world to the same image would result in everyone feeling the same emotion? Where do you see anything that alludes to images, loved ones, or anything that you've mentioned? Everyone doesn't have loved ones. Everyone doesn't feel love.

You're coming up with all of these absurd assertions, when the proof is in the pudding. The narration states that the energy, (not 'images') blanketed every man woman and child on the face of the Earth in a rapture. The energy released affected the minds and controlled the emotions on everyone on the planet.

The Surfer can use invasive telepathy as well. He did it to Hulk. His telepathy isn't as passive as you would like to believe. If his mind is powerful enough to connect with every other mind on the planet, he's more than powerful enough to go head to head with Charlie.

Charles wouldn't even be able to affect the Silver Surfer. He is unable to use telepathy on shapeshifters and intangibles. Surfer is both.>>

HA! I'M going against the narration??! I'M coming up with absurd assertions!? show me ANYWHERE in the narrative where it says the word MIND even one time! ss HIMSELF says 'perhaps i can SHOW the people of this world a way to help themselves'. then he opens a doorway into the quantum world and taps QUANTUM ENERGIES (not telepathic/psionic energies) and blankets the people with . . . what? that's what we're debating. i think it was a beautiful image of a peaceful world.

BUT nowhere does it say exactly WHAT he SHOWED them, but whatever it was it made them feel happy. he SHOWED them (ss words) something that made them joyous. NOWHERE does it even say he touched anyone's mind!! he blanketted them with energy and they saw what they saw. again, i believe he offered them a glimpse of a better world, and they thought it was wonderful. he didn't even use EMPATHY - he showed them and let the image speak for itself.

and i used the images of loved ones as an example - i never said he SHOWED them loved ones.

and where/when has he used this 'invasive' telepathy?

Find the word "Quantum" in my scan. Why would Quantum energy have a direct affect on the mind, pray tell?

How would Surfer know what would cause rapture in each individual if he couldn't invade their minds? I highly doubt that everyone on Marvel Earth likes the same thing, leo.

Where does the narration say that Surfer showed them anything? Is that just your assumption?

I'm sure there's someone on the planet who would not be willing to join in this rapture. Yet EVERYONE was FORCED into it.

Have we forgotten that Xavier cannot affect the Surfer's mind?

Invasive Telepathy.

Proffessor X despite having a vast mind of psionics, is still a mortal. His brain could not grasp infinity, and thus after attempting to peirce Surfer's mind, would be a brain-dead vegetable. Surfs does not even have to contribute to this fight to win..

I guess that's why he's world's most powerful telepath and not "the" most powerful telepath.

<<Find the word "Quantum" in my scan. Why would Quantum energy have a direct affect on the mind, pray tell?>>

that's the misdirection IN your scan! the fact that ss is using quantum energies is on the page previous to the one you scanned. it was the source of the resultant energies mentioned in your scan. quantum, not psionic. as for why q-energy would affect minds, ask stan lee. i postulated a guess - the quantum world is defined by uncertainty - i think ss used this uncertainty to show the people what a peaceful earth COULD be like. as i said, he showed them a 'what if'.

<<Where does the narration say that Surfer showed them anything? Is that just your assumption?>>

again, it is on the page PREVIOUS to your misdirecting scan.

<<Yet EVERYONE was FORCED into it.>>

i don't think ss FORCED anyone - everyone has their idea of peace, or an idea of what a perfect world might be. perhaps that's what he showed them. i don't know. as i said, i think it's ridiculous to say EVERYONE, but the narration DID say that. it said every living being - course that implies so every hero and villain as well, molecule man, etc . . . i think the narration was for affect and was never meant to be scrutinized this way.

and perhaps x can't affect him because his mind is alien. it's NOT because ss is a strong telepath and could fight him off or defeat him in a mind battle.

anyway, it was quantum energy he used, not psionic energy. i'll look at the other scan later.

Can you post the previous page, by any chance?

You keep telling me what you think. Provide some actual facts, leo. Prove that he showed them a "what if." Prove that he didn't force them. Show me something other than opinion.

Surfer can connect with every mind on the planet, but he isn't a strong telepath?

<<Can you post the previous page, by any chance?>>

yeah. but do you really think i'd make this sh## up?

<<Prove that he showed them a "what if." Prove that he didn't force them. Show me something other than opinion.>>

i'm speculating on what he SHOWED them. i don't know what he showed them. neither do you. but it is clear by what he's saying that he SHOWED them something. and in the narration, it says he opened a doorway between what is physical reality and the quantum universe. makes sense he wasn't then showing them something 'real', but rather something that perhaps MIGHT be.

and prove he DID force them. ss's a pacifist - forcing a planet to accede to his . . . whatever he did seems against his character. OFFERING them a glimpse at something more and allowing them the freewill to decide how to feel about it seems to fit better with him. since neither of us KNOW, i'll guess something more in line with his character than force.

<<Surfer can connect with every mind on the planet, but he isn't a strong telepath?>>

and you say i'm telling you what i think. show me anywhere in these scans where it says he connected to or in anyway at all linked minds with everyone.

he bathed them in quantum energy, not psionic.

scan 1 - the whole scene:

scan 2 - what ss is saying:

scan 3: the narration.

he is not using telepathic powers. no mention of mind. no mention of linking. no mention of connecting or forcing. he shows them something that does not exist in physical reality and he used quantum energy to do it.

i'm not saying my interpretation of WHAT he showed is correct. no more than you can tell me it's not. but everyone felt peace, so whatever he showed them , must have been nice.

Good stuff.

I am still convinced that the Surfer linked with every mind on the Earth. How would he know whether or not he had actually changed the emotions of anyone, had he not been able to somehow communicate with every being on the planet?

Linking with every sentient mind on the Earth is not beyond the scope of his power. I agree that mind controlling the planet would be pretty out-of-character, but that does not suggest that Surfer's mental powers and defenses are any less formidable.

Hope I didn't put you through too much trouble getting those scans. I appreciate them.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Good stuff.

I am still convinced that the Surfer linked with every mind on the Earth. How would he know whether or not he had actually changed the emotions of anyone, had he not been able to somehow communicate with every being on the planet?

Linking with every sentient mind on the Earth is not beyond the scope of his power. I agree that mind controlling the planet would be pretty out-of-character, but that does not suggest that Surfer's mental powers and defenses are any less formidable.

Hope I didn't put you through too much trouble getting those scans. I appreciate them.

Bill and Ted brought world peace with their music. Are they psychic?

<<Hope I didn't put you through too much trouble getting those scans. I appreciate them.>>

no worries.

<<I am still convinced that the Surfer linked with every mind on the Earth. How would he know whether or not he had actually changed the emotions of anyone, had he not been able to somehow communicate with every being on the planet?>>

it's a good point, one i've not been able to fully explain to myself. could it be he just knew the effect of . . . whatever he did would have on people? after all, he clearly showed them something glorious. i'm not sure. i admit to not fully understanding what he did, or what he showed, but i'm still of the belief it was not mental control in the way you earlier inferred. maybe he DID passively sense things for a brief moment. the scene is not well explained. one thing IS clear - whatever it was he did took a LOT of power, and WAS pretty impressive.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Hope I didn't put you through too much trouble getting those scans. I appreciate them.>>

no worries.

<<I am still convinced that the Surfer linked with every mind on the Earth. How would he know whether or not he had actually changed the emotions of anyone, had he not been able to somehow communicate with every being on the planet?>>

it's a good point, one i've not been able to fully explain to myself. could it be he just knew the effect of . . . whatever he did would have on people? after all, he clearly showed them something glorious. i'm not sure. i admit to not fully understanding what he did, or what he showed, but i'm still of the belief it was not mental control in the way you earlier inferred. maybe he DID passively sense things for a brief moment. the scene is not well explained. one thing IS clear - whatever it was he did took a LOT of power, and WAS pretty impressive.

Agreed.