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http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27967/878249-black_risen006_large.jpg

vs

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37320/800355-controllers_large.jpg

Which race wins on average? Counting Pre-Crisis feats as well.

They're just offshoots of the same race. Mostly equal.

Yea bout the same, the Darkstars are their version of GL's.

Far inferior, though.

On the other hand, they've created the Miracle Machine, which is comparable to the Guardian's greatest reality altering device, if not superior.

^ Using Guardian tech.

They themselves are Oans, but they didn't 'use guardian tech' to the best of my knowledge. All flashbacks I've seen of them developing the technology in the 'present' (they've perfected it by the 3000 era) has them developing it on their own.

Originally posted by Desaad
Far inferior, though.

True, they didn't last to long maybe 4 years or 3. I got the run haven't read it yet though.

Originally posted by Desaad
They themselves are Oans, but they didn't 'use guardian tech' to the best of my knowledge. All flashbacks I've seen of them developing the technology in the 'present' (they've perfected it by the 3000 era) has them developing it on their own. The Controllers developed it all on their own, but they apparently started with Guardian tech as their baseline, and refined it from there:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/206/mm1i.th.jpg

Right, but there is no evidence that they did anything but take the idea to the logical extreme. In reality it's just Grant Morrison noting the connection between the two races (the connection which was in fact the basis for the retcon that linked them in the first place, since originally the Controllers were from another universe entirely).

The Controllers had been developing the Miracle Machine technology 1,000 years before the time of the Legion anyway -- it's just that in the Legion time the Miracle Machine was just a toy to them, where as in 'our' time it was still dangerous, uncontrollable technology.

Originally posted by kevdude
True, they didn't last to long maybe 4 years or 3. I got the run haven't read it yet though.

Oh, the book you mean? Yeah, the book was pretty wretched for a lot of its run, but with some great Travis Charest art scattered through it.

But I meant that the actual Maser technology (the tech that powered their suits) was seriously inferior to the Green Lantern rings. It made them like Mid Tier or thereabouts.

Originally posted by Desaad
Right, but there is no evidence that they did anything but take the idea to the logical extreme. In reality it's just Grant Morrison noting the connection between the two races (the connection which was in fact the basis for the retcon that linked them in the first place, since originally the Controllers were from another universe entirely).

The Controllers had been developing the Miracle Machine technology 1,000 years before the time of the Legion anyway -- it's just that in the Legion time the Miracle Machine was just a toy to them, where as in 'our' time it was still dangerous, uncontrollable technology. B5 said that the Controllers "discovered a way to refine Guardians will-powered technology to create the final machine." So imo it is implied that they started out with Guardian-tech and continued building on it from there. Regardless, it's still a HUGE feat for the Controllers.

The Miracle Machine is/was still enormously dangerous and uncontrollable in Legion times as well. That's why it was contained within a block of inertron, and off limits to anyone:
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/551/mm2wv.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
B5 said that the Controllers "discovered a way to refine Guardians will-powered technology to create the final machine." Imo it is implied that they started out with Guardian-tech and continued building on it from there.

Again, every flash back to the actual experimentation with the machine has neglected to mention or show any sort of connection between the two. It seems more likely that they took the basic idea of the Guardian's and perfected it, expanded it. The timeline that Morrison gives in Final Crisis is, additionally, wrong since Miracle Machine technology was seen in 'current' times.



No, it's only uncontrollable to the Legion of Superheroes and other such mortals (as evidenced by all the deeds done by Brainiac 5 while he had his nervous breakdown, and the terrible toll destroying it took on Matter Eater Lad). It was specifically given to the Legion by the Controllers as a gift in recognition of the service they had done because to the Controllers it's just a toy.

What I'm saying is that back in 'current' times, the machine is still being developed and to the Controllers it's a dangerous, difficult to control piece of technology. But by the time they get to the Legion's time, it's like the equivalent of the the lever/fulcrum or something.

Ooh, almost forgot, the Controllers produced the Effigy Corps, who in fact WERE comparable to the Green Lantern Corps, or would have been.

Originally posted by Desaad
Again, every flash back to the actual experimentation with the machine has neglected to mention or show any sort of connection between the two. It seems more likely that they took the basic idea of the Guardian's and perfected it, expanded it. The timeline that Morrison gives in Final Crisis is, additionally, wrong since Miracle Machine technology was seen in 'current' times. Just going by the most current info given, is all.

...And when was the MM seen before LoSH?

Originally posted by Desaad
No, it's only uncontrollable to the Legion of Superheroes and other such mortals (as evidenced by all the deeds done by Brainiac 5 while he had his nervous breakdown, and the terrible toll destroying it took on Matter Eater Lad). It was specifically given to the Legion by the Controllers as a gift in recognition of the service they had done because to the Controllers it's just a toy.

What I'm saying is that back in 'current' times, the machine is still being developed and to the Controllers it's a dangerous, difficult to control piece of technology. But by the time they get to the Legion's time, it's like the equivalent of the the lever/fulcrum or something. Oh, you mean to the Controllers it was a toy. I thought you referring to beings of the 31st century in general.

Technology, as I reflect on it, the Controllers may actually be a good bit more impressive than the Guardians, at least in terms of the breadth of what they've created.

The Guardians have the Corps and the CPB, obviously, and the Manhunters, and a few other random things including a device to warp reality on an unknown scale to their names. Pretty cool.

But the Controllers have the Miracle Machine, the Sun Eater factories, the Trinity God-robots, the Effigy Corps, the Darkstars and Know Man.

Never really thought about it before.

Originally posted by Desaad
Ooh, almost forgot, the Controllers produced the Effigy Corps, who in fact WERE comparable to the Green Lantern Corps, or would have been. Yeah I forgot about them as well.

Kyle handled a group of them in the last issue they were seen, but in the issues before that, they were depicted in the same tier.

Originally posted by Galan007
Just going by the most current info given, is all.

...And when was the MM seen before LoSH?

Well, never, since it was created by Jim Shooter.

But in the DCU chronology it played a part in a couple of different adventures in 'normal' time with Superman.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/307/p00002.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Nope, controllers.

Originally posted by Desaad
Well, never, since it was created by Jim Shooter.

But in the DCU chronology it played a part in a couple of different adventures in 'normal' time with Superman.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/307/p00002.th.jpg Interesting. What book is that from?

^ Nvm. Found the issue.

DC Comics Presents 50, IIRC, though it sounds as if you've found it already.

One further point -- The schism between the Guardians and the Controllers occurred after the Green Lantern Corps was first formed, according to the retcon which introduced the idea. So the proto-Controllers would have been a part of the creation of the Green Lanterns in the first place, ie had an equal claim to having 'created' it.

Seems that they went quite a bit further with it than did the Guardians, given the state of Oa and the Corps in the 30th century.

^ Aside from one-shotting various lanterns, do you know of any high-end feats the Controllers have? (not looking for build/tech-related feats.)

Originally posted by Desaad
Oh, the book you mean? Yeah, the book was pretty wretched for a lot of its run, but with some great Travis Charest art scattered through it.

But I meant that the actual Maser technology (the tech that powered their suits) was seriously inferior to the Green Lantern rings. It made them like Mid Tier or thereabouts.

Sorta talking about both, totally forgot about the Effigy Corps. They could probably do a story about the Controllers and Larfleeze again and they would be a little more prepared this time!

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Aside from one-shotting various lanterns, do you know of any high-end feats the Controllers have? (not looking for build/tech-related feats.)

Not a lot jumps out at me, especially if you're not interested in seeing them take on a big group of Green Lanterns + Darkstars. A few things here and there, like this...

http://img837.imageshack.us/i/adventure35717.jpg/
http://img204.imageshack.us/i/adventure35719.jpg/

Guardians win.

I might go with Controllers.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I might go with Controllers. Why ?

Better use of tech.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Better use of tech. Examples.

Somemore of The Controller scans and info.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8637/image3of.jpg

The Sun-Eater threatens the Milky Way!

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9832/image4muk.jpg

Brainiac 5 saving his world using the Miracle Machine the first time (and only time before FC).

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8252/image6p.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4885/image7v.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/563/image8oy.jpg

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4958/image9oi.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5409/image10lz.jpg