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Multiversal Eternity:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111130441/3992602-9209905610-37954.jpg

vs.

COIE Anti-Monitor (at his peak):

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/7658/348512-107462-anti-monitor.jpg

Who wins?

Eternity.

Multiversal Eternity is the same eternity just this time it represents The Multiverses Eternity Concept. Now Eternity wins for rhe fact that in Marvel there isnt that topic of Matter and Anti Matter.

Eternity represents the eternal multiverse (that includes matter and anti matter). Furthermore there is no evidence as to suggest that Anti Matter would harm Multiversal Eternity. So the Anti Monitor doesnt represents a harm in this case.

Eternity wins.

monitor=NEARLY all the universes, except the prime dc universe. eternity=ALL the universes. seems like eternity should be more powerful. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
monitor=NEARLY all the universes, except the prime dc universe. eternity=ALL the universes. seems like eternity should be more powerful. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
monitor=NEARLY all the universes, except the prime dc universe. eternity=ALL the universes. seems like eternity should be more powerful. /shrug COIE AM was already equal to a multiversal power BEFORE he even began destroying the mainstream multiverse...


Remember, the original Monitor was linked to, and powered by, ALL positive matter universes throughout the infinite pre-crisis multiverse. That's why he became increasingly weaker with each positive matter universe that AM destroyed:
http://i.imgur.com/cLDnHs7m.jpg


Despite the fact that Monitor possessed FULLY multiversal power, Anti-Monitor...at his absolute WEAKEST levels, mind you...was still his EQUAL:
http://i.imgur.com/lj11e3vm.jpg
"And so they began a war which lasted one million years. A war waged with equal power. A war in which there could be no victor..."


With that in mind, remember that for each positive matter universe AM destroyed, his anti-matter universe expanded to fill the void. Basically, every time he destroyed a positive matter universe, he gained a universe-worth of ADDITIONAL anti-matter energy:
http://i.imgur.com/9QSAUcjm.jpg


So when he ultimately absorbed the anti-matter universe:
http://i.imgur.com/ryd0mrkm.jpg

...AM would have gained power equivalent to an infinite amount of universes(minus the 5 that still remained, lol) ON TOP OF the multiversal power he already wielded -- so power roughly equivalent to TWO multiverses, in other words.


tl;dr
'Peak' AM was essentially a Megaversal power.


_______________________________________



As for this battle: AM stomps Eternity, imo... One anti-matter rift, and it's over.

Eternity is a *****.

Put together an infinite number of em and you get an infinite *****.

Megaversal (multiple multiverses) AM > Multiversal eternity

Originally posted by Galan007
COIE AM was already equal to a multiversal power BEFORE he even began destroying the mainstream multiverse...


Remember, the original Monitor was linked to, and powered by, ALL positive matter universes throughout the infinite pre-crisis multiverse. That's why he became increasingly weaker with each positive matter universe that AM destroyed:
http://i.imgur.com/cLDnHs7m.jpg


Despite the fact that Monitor possessed FULLY multiversal power, Anti-Monitor...at his absolute WEAKEST levels, mind you...was still his EQUAL:
http://i.imgur.com/lj11e3vm.jpg
"And so they began a war which lasted one million years. A war waged with equal power. A war in which there could be no victor..."


With that in mind, remember that for each positive matter universe AM destroyed, his anti-matter universe expanded to fill the void. Basically, every time he destroyed a positive matter universe, he gained a universe-worth of ADDITIONAL anti-matter energy:
http://i.imgur.com/9QSAUcjm.jpg


So when he ultimately absorbed the anti-matter universe:
http://i.imgur.com/ryd0mrkm.jpg

...AM would have gained power equivalent to an infinite amount of universes(minus the 5 that still remained, lol) ON TOP OF the multiversal power he already wielded -- so power roughly equivalent to TWO multiverses, in other words.


tl;dr
'Peak' AM was essentially a Megaversal power.


_______________________________________



As for this battle: AM stomps Eternity, imo... One anti-matter rift, and it's over.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Megaversal (multiple multiverses) AM > Multiversal eternity

Wrong Concept. COIE Antimonitor didn't had the power of Two Multiverses.

Actually DC devides their "Multiverse" into 2. The Matter and Anti Matter sides. So, there is the Matter Multiverse and the Antimatter Multiverse, but it is still the same Multiverse. Isn't like he helds 2 Multiverses.

This means that Antimonitor and Monitor are two sides of the same coin. Both Matter and Antimatter sides form the DC Multiverse.

Now, marvel on the other hand doesn't show this prospects. When we say Multiversal Eternity we mean the WHOLE MULTIVERSE (All the Concepts of the Multiverse that Eternity Represents). So, this means that both Matter and Anti Matter are counted although this prospects haven't been approached by writters.

As i said before. There is no evidence that Multiversal Eternity would get affected by Anti Matter. The power of the Anti Monitor lies in throwing Anti Matter waves at their enemies, so in this prospect Eternity wouldn't be affected.

I don't think there is a way Eternity is affected since he represents both Matter and Anti Matter, so he doesn't get affected if Matter gets destroyed.

Anti-Monitor stomps.

DC in the past was a Omniverse, and still is a Omniverse. DC is composed of multiple megaverses (DC, Warner Bros, ATT, Wild Storm, Vertigo, etc), and each of those megaverses are composed of multiple multiverses.

Anti Monitor was and is a megaversal power that consisted of multiple multiverses. Multiversal Eternity was only a Multiversal entity, AM stomps as its a mismatch of huge proportions of power.

Eternity
Not to mention the fact that each new eternity is stronger than the last multiversal eternity.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Anti Monitor was and is a megaversal power that consisted of multiple multiverses. Multiversal Eternity was only a Multiversal entity, AM stomps as its a mismatch of huge proportions of power.

Originally posted by Board Walker
DC in the past was a Omniverse, and still is a Omniverse. DC is composed of multiple megaverses (DC, Warner Bros, ATT, Wild Storm, Vertigo, etc), and each of those megaverses are composed of multiple multiverses.

Anti Monitor was and is a megaversal power that consisted of multiple multiverses. Multiversal Eternity was only a Multiversal entity, AM stomps as its a mismatch of huge proportions of power.

Doesn't matter yet. Anti monitor's power lies within anti matter. Multiversal Eternity doesn't get affected by anti matter. Multiversal Eternity represents both matter and anti matter.

There is nothing Anti monitor could do to hear Eternity.

Eternity wins.

Originally posted by Galan007
COIE AM was already equal to a multiversal power BEFORE he even began destroying the mainstream multiverse...


Remember, the original Monitor was linked to, and powered by, ALL positive matter universes throughout the infinite pre-crisis multiverse. That's why he became increasingly weaker with each positive matter universe that AM destroyed:
http://i.imgur.com/cLDnHs7m.jpg


Despite the fact that Monitor possessed FULLY multiversal power, Anti-Monitor...at his absolute WEAKEST levels, mind you...was still his EQUAL:
http://i.imgur.com/lj11e3vm.jpg
"And so they began a war which lasted one million years. A war waged with equal power. A war in which there could be no victor..."


With that in mind, remember that for each positive matter universe AM destroyed, his anti-matter universe expanded to fill the void. Basically, every time he destroyed a positive matter universe, he gained a universe-worth of ADDITIONAL anti-matter energy:
http://i.imgur.com/9QSAUcjm.jpg


So when he ultimately absorbed the anti-matter universe:
http://i.imgur.com/ryd0mrkm.jpg

...AM would have gained power equivalent to an infinite amount of universes(minus the 5 that still remained, lol) ON TOP OF the multiversal power he already wielded -- so power roughly equivalent to TWO multiverses, in other words.


tl;dr
'Peak' AM was essentially a Megaversal power.


_______________________________________



As for this battle: AM stomps Eternity, imo... One anti-matter rift, and it's over.

i can def get what you're saying here, but for the sake of discussion i'll play devil's advocate for a second. we're essentially comparing 2 examples of 'infinity'. you're saying that in dc there were 2 sources of 'infinite' power for AM to draw from though, correct? hard to argue with that stance. the only issue i would possibly have deals with viewing the matter/anti-matter universes as multiverses in themselves. i'm not sure if the anti-matter universe WAS a multiverse, as opposed to just a very large universe. it seems like we could pretty easily view the combination of the matter/anti-matter parts of dc as just ONE multiverse, as opposed to seeing them as 2 separate multiverses, if you get what i'm saying.

if that's the pov you take, (that collectively they form one multiverse) i'm not sure we can say definitively that the dc multiverse>marvel multiverse. if we can't, it's not unreasonable to say eternity>AM only because AM lacked those last couple universes. as regards an anti-matter attack: not sure that would work tbh. in dc anti-matter was pretty much the end of everything, but marvel has its anti-matter universe--the negative zone, so anti-matter certainly isn't something...foreign to eternity.

based on your initial assessment it's easy to see why people might think AM stomps, but it really depends on the way you view the dc multiverse i think.

Anti Monitor simply waves his hand and Multi Eternity is erased from existence.

uh-huh.

Originally posted by leonidas
i can def get what you're saying here, but for the sake of discussion i'll play devil's advocate for a second. we're essentially comparing 2 examples of 'infinity'. you're saying that in dc there were 2 sources of 'infinite' power for AM to draw from though, correct? hard to argue with that stance. the only issue i would possibly have deals with viewing the matter/anti-matter universes as multiverses in themselves. i'm not sure if the anti-matter universe WAS a multiverse, as opposed to just a very large universe. it seems like we could pretty easily view the combination of the matter/anti-matter parts of dc as just ONE multiverse, as opposed to seeing them as 2 separate multiverses, if you get what i'm saying.

if that's the pov you take, (that collectively they form one multiverse) i'm not sure we can say definitively that the dc multiverse>marvel multiverse. if we can't, it's not unreasonable to say eternity>AM only because AM lacked those last couple universes. as regards an anti-matter attack: not sure that would work tbh. in dc anti-matter was pretty much the end of everything, but marvel has its anti-matter universe--the negative zone, so anti-matter certainly isn't something...foreign to eternity.

based on your initial assessment it's easy to see why people might think AM stomps, but it really depends on the way you view the dc multiverse i think. What I'm saying in a nutshell is...

The original Monitor was a fully multiversal power, and AM was his exact equal when they originally fought. Thus AM's baseline power must have also been multiversal by proxy(I'm sure you understand why I think it would take a multiversal power to stalemate multiversal power.)

Now where cosmology is concerned: the anti-matter universe was just that: a universe. However, the power it contained when AM absorbed it was ~multiversal, as it contained the energies of the entire pre-crisis multiverse(sans 5 individual universes, lol) in addition to its own.

...So if AM was already a multiversal power...then absorbed a multiverse-worth of additional energies...it means his 'peak' power would have been equal to that of ~two multiverses.

...Ergo, a #Megaversal power.

Originally posted by Galan007
So if AM was already a multiversal power...then absorbed a multiverse-worth of additional energies...it means his 'peak' power would have been equal to that of ~two multiverses.

...Ergo, a Megaversal power.

Thats not it.

You guys have it wrong. The matter and anti matter form the multiverse. When COIE anti monitor absorved the matter multiverse he had the power of (1 multiverse or infinite universes - 5). You guys are taking it as if there were 2 multiverses, when in reality its one multiverse devided into two (matter side and anti matter side)

Eternity wins.

DC was an omniverse. AM curshes Jobber Eternity.

marvel has been labeled an omniverse on numerous occasions as well, so that designation is menaingless.



lol

i understand your stance completely and were i forced to choose here, i'd fall on the side of the AM too. i'm just less sure it is totally cut and dry i guess. we also had that scan of pariah saying AM absorbed 1000 universes. pretty sure that was just dumb character speak, but 1000 is....a LOT less than an infinite amount. lol

there is obvious precdence though for 1 universe being =/> than a multiverse--the beyonderverse grossly dwarfed the main marvel multiverse. /shrug

i'll continue to play devil's advocate for a second though because i'm bored.

the monitor stresses that he gets power from all the 'positive matter universes'. that would imply all the 'alternate earth' universes. but wasn't fourth world exempt from his influence? and there exist a lot of magical realms in dc. it doesn't seem that the monitor would get power from them. only drawing power from positive matter universes seems like it would leave...a LOT of the multiverse outside his influence (think of the higher dimensional planes, the lands of the dead, the temporal planes, etc....)

in eternity's defense, he represents ALL universes--positive, negative, magical and everything else inbetween. eternity's "all" seems to represent more than monitors "all" if you see where i'm going. the question then would be how does representing EVERYTHING compare to the AM having the power of just the AM universe and the positive matter universes....? seems like both monitor and AM would initially be LESS than eternity (though still clearly multiversal). can their combined power make up the difference...? maybe, but maybe not so perfectly cut-and-dry?

Originally posted by leonidas
i can def get what you're saying here, but for the sake of discussion i'll play devil's advocate for a second. we're essentially comparing 2 examples of 'infinity'. you're saying that in dc there were 2 sources of 'infinite' power for AM to draw from though, correct? hard to argue with that stance. the only issue i would possibly have deals with viewing the matter/anti-matter universes as multiverses in themselves. i'm not sure if the anti-matter universe WAS a multiverse, as opposed to just a very large universe. it seems like we could pretty easily view the combination of the matter/anti-matter parts of dc as just ONE multiverse, as opposed to seeing them as 2 separate multiverses, if you get what i'm saying.

if that's the pov you take, (that collectively they form one multiverse) i'm not sure we can say definitively that the dc multiverse>marvel multiverse. if we can't, it's not unreasonable to say eternity>AM only because AM lacked those last couple universes. as regards an anti-matter attack: not sure that would work tbh. in dc anti-matter was pretty much the end of everything, but marvel has its anti-matter universe--the negative zone, so anti-matter certainly isn't something...foreign to eternity.

based on your initial assessment it's easy to see why people might think AM stomps, but it really depends on the way you view the dc multiverse i think.

And don't forget that in the original COIE story lines every universe sprang one single universe and every time that happened each universe became weaker so that the sum total of all the universes in the multiverse combined only equaled the power of that one original universe. Lots of people believe that the more recent recaps of COIE recton the whole thing were each universe was less powerful because they didn't mention that each universe was less powerful, but IMO omission alone doesn't = a recton.

a similar argument can be made for the original marvel multiverse though... first firmament was originally a single universe that was fractured. all other mutliverses after the first one were reflections of this first fracturing. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
a similar argument can be made for the original marvel multiverse though... first firmament was originally a single universe that was fractured. all other mutliverses after the first one were reflections of this first fracturing. /shrug
Marvel never came right out and specifically said that each fracturing weakened the other universes though. DC did on panel. Honestly IMO the only reason to assume such a thing would be to first assume that the power of the multiverses in each company are equal and work backwards in one's interpretations with the intention of supporting that pre-determined conclusion. I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything like that because it all really comes down to how one wants to view things, I'm just throwing my 2 cents in on the matter cause it's been a while since I've done so.

Eternity wins for the fact that he doesnt get affected by anti matter.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Marvel never came right out and specifically said that each fracturing weakened the other universes though. DC did on panel. Honestly IMO the only reason to assume such a thing would be to first assume that the power of the multiverses in each company are equal and work backwards in one's interpretations with the intention of supporting that pre-determined conclusion. I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything like that because it all really comes down to how one wants to view things, I'm just throwing my 2 cents in on the matter cause it's been a while since I've done so.

lol

forum is sort of designed for throwing in 2 cents....

i remember something about successive universes being weakened, but it's been a while since i read coie with any real attention to detail. do you have a scan or issue number where this idea was clearly depicted?

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

forum is sort of designed for throwing in 2 cents....

i remember something about successive universes being weakened, but it's been a while since i read coie with any real attention to detail. do you have a scan or issue number where this idea was clearly depicted?
I don't have the specific scans anymore and don't remember the specific issues it was mentioned in, but in was repeatedly mentioned throughout COIE. I'm sure you could easily find it if you read one or 2 of the core books where it talks about the origin of the multiverse.

...But then if you look at pretty much any story in DC's history that deals with alternate universes(even the dozenS of issues that specifically retell the creation of the pre-crisis multiverse, and/or the events of COIE), nothing is EVER alluded to them being 'weakened' or whatever. They are just described as an infinite amount of regular ol' universes that exist on a separate vibrational plane than the mainstream universe... Same with Marvel's cosmology.

You'd almost need to have a personal vendetta against DC to seriously try and argue that their universes are in some way 'weaker' than Marvel's, tbh... Especially given that Marvel's multiverse(s) were spawned in the EXACT same way(ie. 'one became many', etc.) ermm

That said, I believe that, in general, ALL comic book universes are intended to be roughly equal in terms of overall size/scale/power: they are all infinite(or at least, expanding outward toward infinity at an exponential rate.) The only exception(s) would be pocket universes or fractional realities(duh)... At least IMO. /shrug

_____________________________


Either way, this is a debate that I have never seen a reason to partake in over the years(for obvious reasons), and I am certainly not about to start now... I've said my 2 cents and will leave it at that. So please don't get offended if/when I don't respond back to you, goob -- I just don't really care enough to argue it at this point.

Where's Mr Master to annoy Galan when you need him?

mmm...

Pretty sure I annoy him these days... mhmm

Originally posted by Galan007
...But then if you look at pretty much any story in DC's history that deals with alternate universes(even the dozenS of issues that specifically retell the creation of the pre-crisis multiverse, and/or the events of COIE), nothing is EVER alluded to them being 'weakened' or whatever. They are just described as an infinite amount of regular ol' universes that exist on a separate vibrational plane than the mainstream universe... Same with Marvel's cosmology.

You'd almost need to have a personal vendetta against DC to seriously try and argue that their universes are in some way 'weaker' than Marvel's, tbh... Especially given that Marvel's multiverse(s) were spawned in the EXACT same way(ie. 'one became many', etc.) ermm

That said, I believe that, in general, ALL comic book universes are intended to be roughly equal in terms of overall size/scale/power: they are all infinite(or at least, expanding outward toward infinity at an exponential rate.) The only exception(s) would be pocket universes or fractional realities(duh)... At least IMO. /shrug

_____________________________


Either way, this is a debate that I have never seen a reason to partake in over the years(for obvious reasons), and I am certainly not about to start now... I've said my 2 cents and will leave it at that. So please don't get offended if/when I don't respond back to you, goob -- I just don't really care enough to argue it at this point.
Oh I can totally understand not wanting to argue about it. Way back when I used to be way into debating cosmic stuff(as I'm sure you remember) but eventually I decided that cosmology is about the dumbest thing to debate because in all honestly it's about the most inconsistent thing in either company. And I can totally understand that DC may have intended to change the way things stood after Crisis(even though I don't particularly agree that the omission constitutes a recton). But in threads like this where it's specifically COIE Anti-monitor that's being discussed the way the multiverse was layed out within that specific story arc seems particularly relevant.

By the same token the appearance of LT in the What If where his ultimate attack was a sun going nova may or may not have pertinence in a generic thread involving LT, but if the thread is specifically about THAT particular LT appearance then it should be the only appearance that really matters. The entire multiverse that COIE Anti Monitor almost had the full power of was specifically noted on multiple occasions as being as powerful as 1 full universe in the arc in which he appeared.

Also I know you disagree with the assessment, but would you mind posting the scans talking about what I'm saying for leo to see?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Marvel never came right out and specifically said that each fracturing weakened the other universes though. DC did on panel. Honestly IMO the only reason to assume such a thing would be to first assume that the power of the multiverses in each company are equal and work backwards in one's interpretations with the intention of supporting that pre-determined conclusion. I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything like that because it all really comes down to how one wants to view things, I'm just throwing my 2 cents in on the matter cause it's been a while since I've done so.
They just said that becoming one universe strengthened Eternity rather than being a multiverse.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I can totally understand not wanting to argue about it. Way back when I used to be way into debating cosmic stuff(as I'm sure you remember) but eventually I decided that cosmology is about the dumbest thing to debate because in all honestly it's about the most inconsistent thing in either company. And I can totally understand that DC may have intended to change the way things stood after Crisis(even though I don't particularly agree that the omission constitutes a recton). But in threads like this where it's specifically COIE Anti-monitor that's being discussed the way the multiverse was layed out within that specific story arc seems particularly relevant.

By the same token the appearance of LT in the What If where his ultimate attack was a sun going nova may or may not have pertinence in a generic thread involving LT, but if the thread is specifically about THAT particular LT appearance then it should be the only appearance that really matters. The entire multiverse that COIE Anti Monitor almost had the full power of was specifically noted on multiple occasions as being as powerful as 1 full universe in the arc in which he appeared.

Also I know you disagree with the assessment, but would you mind posting the scans talking about what I'm saying for leo to see?


The bias is just laughable.

There's nothing to suggest the 'universe' was any weaker.
It's very clear in the context of COIE that what he described was a universe with a history that contained all the heroes in one, because the heroes are the defense mechanism of the universe/multiverse.

In the Pre-COIE era, Superman of Earth 1, Wonder Woman of Earth 2, JSA, the Marvel family of Earth S, the remnants of Earth X, etc that comprised the rebuilt post COIE-universe were all on different universes.

It was very much the point and concept of the entire story.

Grant used it again in Final Crisis.

At the time, the Monitor assembled the greatest assortment of heros ever by saving EArth1, 2, X, S,

At least that was how I took it.


But there's nothing in any other multiverse story before or after about space being any weaker.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I can totally understand not wanting to argue about it. Way back when I used to be way into debating cosmic stuff(as I'm sure you remember) but eventually I decided that cosmology is about the dumbest thing to debate because in all honestly it's about the most inconsistent thing in either company. And I can totally understand that DC may have intended to change the way things stood after Crisis(even though I don't particularly agree that the omission constitutes a recton). But in threads like this where it's specifically COIE Anti-monitor that's being discussed the way the multiverse was layed out within that specific story arc seems particularly relevant.

By the same token the appearance of LT in the What If where his ultimate attack was a sun going nova may or may not have pertinence in a generic thread involving LT, but if the thread is specifically about THAT particular LT appearance then it should be the only appearance that really matters. The entire multiverse that COIE Anti Monitor almost had the full power of was specifically noted on multiple occasions as being as powerful as 1 full universe in the arc in which he appeared.

Also I know you disagree with the assessment, but would you mind posting the scans talking about what I'm saying for leo to see?

Hey I'm not following all the current Marvel stuff so they may have recently decided to do something along similar lines, I can't really speak on that. I'd have to check it all out to make an informed decision on what they're talking about.

Originally posted by Juntai
There's nothing to suggest the 'universe' was any weaker.
It's very clear in the context of COIE that what he described was a universe with a history that contained all the heroes in one, because the heroes are the defense mechanism of the universe/multiverse.

In the Pre-COIE era, Superman of Earth 1, Wonder Woman of Earth 2, JSA, the Marvel family of Earth S, the remnants of Earth X, etc that comprised the rebuilt post COIE-universe were all on different universes.

It was very much the point and concept of the entire story.

Grant used it again in Final Crisis.

At the time, the Monitor assembled the greatest assortment of heros ever by saving EArth1, 2, X, S,

At least that was how I took it.


But there's nothing in any other multiverse story before or after about space being any weaker.

In COIE it DID say each division made each universe weaker. And that's why whenever a positive matter universe was destroyed the AM universe became stronger as it expanded to fill the void. Now you're free to say that it hasn't/wasn't ever said before or sense(it's not like I've read every DC story ever), but within the arc that COIE AM appeared it was stated multiple times which IMO means that it's relevant when discussing threads specifically involving COIE AM.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey I'm not following all the current Marvel stuff so they may have recently decided to do something along similar lines, I can't really speak on that. I'd have to check it all out to make an informed decision on what they're talking about.



In COIE it DID say each division made each universe weaker. And that's why whenever a positive matter universe was destroyed the AM universe became stronger as it expanded to fill the void. Now you're free to say that it hasn't/wasn't ever said before or sense(it's not like I've read every DC story ever), but within the arc that COIE AM appeared it was stated multiple times which IMO means that it's relevant when discussing threads specifically involving COIE AM. I did look back, and it did say it made the fabric weaker than it would be whole. I only remembered offhand the other line where he just said "somehow weaker" but needed to assemble the heros to stop it.

That said, there is no context to compare it to another reality.

Just because the one universe replicated is 'weaker' than the whole, and then reformed, doesnt mean weaker than a replicated Marvel universe, or any other fictional universe. Only 'weaker' than its own whole.

At the end of the day, what really matters is the feats.

i think this is the relevant scan:

https://imgur.com/a/jYIcZ

there may be other references as well, but the statement is pretty clear. that said, there's no real way to gauge how much weaker, or even what weaker means in this sense. but yeah, i agree with goob. i'd completely forgotten that point and he's right, as we're speaking about coie AM, the point is certainly valid. /shrug

Originally posted by Juntai
I did look back, and it did say it made the fabric weaker than it would be whole. I only remembered offhand the other line where he just said "somehow weaker" but needed to assemble the heros to stop it.

That said, there is no context to compare it to another reality.

Just because the one universe replicated is 'weaker' than the whole, and then reformed, doesnt mean weaker than a replicated Marvel universe, or any other fictional universe. Only 'weaker' than its own whole.

At the end of the day, what really matters is the feats.
Unless Marvel has come right out and stated that anytime a universe splits that it and the one it splits from is "weaker" than the original then what happened to the original universe in COIE doesn't apply it's universe. If we start coming out saying that some universes are stronger than others with nothing stated to support such a thing then we might as well throw all cosmic universal/multiversal debates off the forum. A universe is a universe unless specifically noted as happened in COIE. The entire DC multiverse during that arc was equal to 1 "whole" universe in power, thus COIE AM at the height of his power was just shy of being "universal" compared to other companies who haven't specifically laid their multiverses out in such a way. Now if people want to say that such a thing no longer applies because DC has changed the way they present their multiverse then I won't bother arguing the point because as I pointed out before cosmology is about the most inconstant thing in comics. But when specifically discussing COIE cosmology it was very clearly laid out for us in the arc.

DC was a multiverse during the COIE arc, as each universe was destroyed the remaining number of universes expanded to equate to the same infinity that the prior number of universes equated to.

This in no way changes the fact that AM was already one multiverse to begin with which was the anti multiverse, and by the end of it the AM had nearly absorbed all of the positive multiverse. The AM was megaversal

Originally posted by Board Walker
DC was a multiverse during the COIE arc, as each universe was destroyed the remaining number of universes expanded to equate to the same infinity that the prior number of universes equated to.

This in no way changes the fact that AM was already one multiverse to begin with which was the anti multiverse, and by the end of it the AM had nearly absorbed all of the positive multiverse. The AM was megaversal
No the Antimatter universe was simply one of the many universes created by the division of the original universe. The sum total of all the positive matter universes and the anti matter universe was 1 "whole" universe. Don't blame me, it's just the way it was written in the story.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No the Antimatter universe was simply one of the many universes created by the division of the original universe. The sum total of all the positive matter universes and the anti matter universe was 1 "whole" universe. Don't blame me, it's just the way it was written in the story.
So is Eternity which is shown during Ultimates.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Ultimates 2 #9 Pt 2/2

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662723_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-012.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662725_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-013.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662727_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-014.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662728_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-015.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662732_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-016.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662733_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-017.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662735_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-018.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662737_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-019.jpg

I wonder what your response would be.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Unless Marvel has come right out and stated that anytime a universe splits that it and the one it splits from is "weaker" than the original then what happened to the original universe in COIE doesn't apply it's universe. If we start coming out saying that some universes are stronger than others with nothing stated to support such a thing then we might as well throw all cosmic universal/multiversal debates off the forum. A universe is a universe unless specifically noted as happened in COIE. The entire DC multiverse during that arc was equal to 1 "whole" universe in power, thus COIE AM at the height of his power was just shy of being "universal" compared to other companies who haven't specifically laid their multiverses out in such a way. Now if people want to say that such a thing no longer applies because DC has changed the way they present their multiverse then I won't bother arguing the point because as I pointed out before cosmology is about the most inconstant thing in comics. But when specifically discussing COIE cosmology it was very clearly laid out for us in the arc. What you're not getting is, that just because the universe replicated is weaker than its own whole in DC, does not mean that the replicated multiverse is weaker than Marvels or any other fictional one. There is no point of reference for that comparison. It is only weaker as a multiverse compared to itself compacted as one.

Pre-Crisis DC = Marvel multiverse.
Post Crisis DC, the multiverse reborn as a single entity = Marvel multiverse.


If you have actual evidence that one of those universes of the silver age/bronze age multiverse is lesser than a Marvel one in any way, feel free to present it.


Its truly a level of desperation and bias to actually try to push some 'this company's universe is stronger than that one's universe' nonsense.

ok, i'm legit curious. let's say that is totally correct: dc=marvel wouldn't that then support the idea that eternity (current)>AM? if dc and marvel ARE equal (which i can totally get behind btw) AM ultimately lacked the power of a couple universes while eternity is ALL of marvel. seems that should imply eternity>AM and that has nothing to do with one universe having been weakened in whatever way was intended. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, i'm legit curious. let's say that is totally correct: dc=marvel wouldn't that then support the idea that eternity (current)>AM? if dc and marvel ARE equal (which i can totally get behind btw) AM ultimately lacked the power of a couple universes while eternity is ALL of marvel. seems that should imply eternity>AM and that has nothing to do with one universe having been weakened in whatever way was intended. /shrug Eternity is a multiverse. The Monitor represented the multiverse.
Anti-Monitor had power equal to the multiverse before taking infinite universes minus 5 and adding it to his own.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So is Eternity which is shown during Ultimates.



I wonder what your response would be.

That's freaking weird... like really, really weird. I mean I can understand the idea of a single universe dividing it's total power among duplicate universes(meaning that the multiverse contains the same amount of power as ever) and I can under stand a universe duplicating without losing power kinda like Multiple Man does(meaning that the overall power in the multiverse increases as universes are formed), but the idea that the whole multiverse is outright LESS powerful than the original universe is just freaking bizarre and doesn't seem to make any logical sense. Even if we say that there's energy wasted in powering the superflow to account for 2 or more universes being less than half as powerful as the total energy available, the sum total of the multiverse should include the power of the superflow so that the power of the multiverse would still equal the power of all the universes combined.

Have they put out any kind of origin of the multiverse or anything to provide a more in-depth explanation of what Richards was talking about there?

Originally posted by Juntai
What you're not getting is, that just because the universe replicated is weaker than its own whole in DC, does not mean that the replicated multiverse is weaker than Marvels or any other fictional one. There is no point of reference for that comparison. It is only weaker as a multiverse compared to itself compacted as one.

Pre-Crisis DC = Marvel multiverse.
Post Crisis DC, the multiverse reborn as a single entity = Marvel multiverse.


If you have actual evidence that one of those universes of the silver age/bronze age multiverse is lesser than a Marvel one in any way, feel free to present it.


Its truly a level of desperation and bias to actually try to push some 'this company's universe is stronger than that one's universe' nonsense.

It's not an effort to downplay DC, it's an effort to use logic for an accurate effort. I can even prove it right now by saying that unless there's some kind of important context to abhi scans that DC's multiverse is actually more powerful than Marvels because apparently Marvel's loses power somewhere along the way that can only be regained by mergining into a single universe.

Originally posted by Juntai
Eternity is a multiverse. The Monitor represented the multiverse.
Anti-Monitor had power equal to the multiverse before taking infinite universes minus 5 and adding it to his own.

See I still have to disagree with you there. Not in the sense that I'm saying anything about a comparison between Eternity and AM because I have no idea what the Hell Marvel is doing at this point, but I disagree about AM somehow being more than multiversal. I way I see it there are two logical interpretations of comparison between the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor during COIE. The first one(that I personally believe) is that rather than the antimatter universe actually being equal to the combined power of the positive matter universes, it was simply that the character AM was equal to the character the Monitor. He wasn't actually functioning anywhere near abstract level power until he absorbed all the power from the antimatter universe towards the end of the series. That's why Supergirl was nearly able to kill him, he had his hands full when his Thunderers rebelled against him, had some serious issues with the Flash, and was dependant upon his machines to destroy the positive matter universes. Even after he absorbed the AM universe he still didn't just destroy any of the positive matter universes, he instead traveled to the dawn of time(which burned up MOST of his power) to reset everything and needed the power of Earth's heroes to do so.

I'm not sure what kind of justification DC used amongst thenselves to say that he and the Monitor were but they did. Maybe AM was willing to draw more power from his universe because he was more ruthless and cared less about the state of his universe. Maybe Monitor cared more about keeping the entire universe intact so he only sought to stalemate AM rather than destroy him and his universe because he(Monitor) was benevolent.

Alterantively, perhaps for whatever reason the Antimatter universe somehow got half the power from that 1 single universe. That still means that it's the power of 1 "whole" universe/divided multiverse at play within that arc because the antimatter universe was part of the multiverse, not something outside of it. So against any embodiment of a "whole" universe/divided multiverse(again I'm not talking Eternity because Marvel's not making sense right now) he'd still lose because he never had the power of a whole multiverse.

Originally posted by Juntai
Eternity is a multiverse. The Monitor represented the multiverse.
Anti-Monitor had power equal to the multiverse before taking infinite universes minus 5 and adding it to his own.

but the anti-matter universe evolved as a result of the initial universe breaking apart. that would mean it was already factored in as part of that whole initial universe. ie--anti-matter+positive matter=initial whole universe.

the only way to avoid the conclusion is to show that the anti-matter universe existed independently of the original universe and didn't come into being as a result of the fracturing caused by krona. but:

https://imgur.com/a/04aHR

it seems like the AM universe was born as a direct result of krona's experiment. tbh, i'd forgotten...ALL of that and i'm pretty surprised. i started out just playing devil's advocate, but now i'm not so sure at all. maybe i'm missing something but it seems that first whole universe was comprised of the totality of the AM universe and the positive universe.... /shrug

The anti-matter universe was born when the multiverse was born... It was essentially creation balancing itself out, if you will:
https://s26.postimg.org/m7seshpop/multi_15.jpg

And I am legit curious why some people seem to be cherry-picking a single scene, and acting like it is the one and only incontrovertible truth regarding DC's cosmology? There are literally dozenS of different retellings regarding DC's creation-event(along with COIE-proper) that mention absolutely NOTHING about the universes of the multiverse inextricably becoming 'weaker' when the fracture/expansion originally occurred.

Here are a few of said retellings, but as I said: there are dozens more...
https://s26.postimg.org/wwwwt9mq1/multi_1.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/yty8bl2rt/multi_2.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/vkjt54eo9/multi_3.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/3lpne9d1l/multi_4.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/c1ami0qix/multi_5.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/aeq0aj3ux/multi_6.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/mhvby3ex5/multi_7.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/ibahirfbd/multi_8.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/8pgx2go5l/multi_9.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/tdfkh79e1/multi_10.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/yat52bbd5/multi_11.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/72rph8c3t/multi_12.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/jnwrye24p/multi_13.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/krgwacmrt/multi_14.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/m7seshpop/multi_15.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/7gxmukll5/multi_16.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/6sosbmmvd/multi_17.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/rquy9pmq1/multi_18.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/b4de0mts9/multi_19.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/8lwadoxft/multi_20.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/5gbonhetl/multi_21.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/vfp8mxm4p/multi_22.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/rutd3phl5/multi_23.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/8filaloax/multi_24.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/kvfb4chmx/multi_25.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/3rlfhr9l5/multi_26.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/94a9vvxhl/multi_27.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/u2gftyxc9/multi_28.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/z3sf92u6h/multi_29.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/96u5iq155/multi_30.jpg


To further substantiate my point, I could also post scans where characters like Psycho Pirate and Mxy have resurrected/manipulated the pre-crisis multiverse...heck, I could even post scans from Vertigo cosmology as well...but there is really no need to go THAT overboard. I am simply saying that IF the universes were truly intended to have become 'weaker' when the multiverse expanded, don't you think that maybe a few of those scenes would have at least ALLUDED to such..? I mean, it IS a pretty darned important little tidbit if true, no..? But as mentioned: all that plethora of retellings DO imply is that the original creation fractured into an infinite number of near-identical alternate universes. Nothing more; nothing less.


*On a different but somewhat related note: Spectre was implied to have become even MORE powerful than the Presence itself during the crescendo of COIE:
https://s26.postimg.org/a76yrria1/image.jpg

So should that one cherry-picked scene serve as the end-all/be-all regarding Spectre's powerset(ie. absorbing the powers of a handful of mages ACTUALLY makes him more powerful than THE God), or is it possible that maybe some things should logically be regarded as outliers when weighed against the rest of established continuity..? IOW, exceptions -- not the rule..?


Just some stuff to think about for those who might be looking for the whole picture. srug

Boom!

geezus prep....

anyway @galan. i agree that the 'weakness' of the universes seems to have been forgotten, or certainly never clearly defined. like i said earlier, i don't even know HOW they would be weaker. how is one parallel universe 'weaker' than another one...? could be as simple as the beings who populate it i guess, but that difference would be essentially non-existent.

to me, as regards this particular battle, the supposed 'weakness' of the universes is a non-issue: it simply depends on how you see the totality of the pre-crisis multiverse. if the AM universe simply grew as a balance, it still seems to have stemmed directly from the fracturing of that first universe and was spawned by the power released at that time. even wayyyy back in GL 40, it's shown that the 'evil' is released when the universe is fractured by krona. based on that, it doesn't seem unreasonable to view the complete pre-crisis multiverse as being AM+positive. and if that's the case, current eternity>AM.

if you view the totality as being just the positive matter, and the AM universe wholly separate, then obviously AM>eternity. i just don't know how to reconcile that stance given the pretty explicit descriptions of the AM universe and its being created along with the parallel earths. shrug

Originally posted by darthgoober
That's freaking weird... like really, really weird. I mean I can understand the idea of a single universe dividing it's total power among duplicate universes(meaning that the multiverse contains the same amount of power as ever) and I can under stand a universe duplicating without losing power kinda like Multiple Man does(meaning that the overall power in the multiverse increases as universes are formed), but the idea that the whole multiverse is outright LESS powerful than the original universe is just freaking bizarre and doesn't seem to make any logical sense. Even if we say that there's energy wasted in powering the superflow to account for 2 or more universes being less than half as powerful as the total energy available, the sum total of the multiverse should include the power of the superflow so that the power of the multiverse would still equal the power of all the universes combined.

Have they put out any kind of origin of the multiverse or anything to provide a more in-depth explanation of what Richards was talking about there?
No, this is what it is.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So is Eternity which is shown during Ultimates.



I wonder what your response would be. Interesting.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So is Eternity which is shown during Ultimates.



I wonder what your response would be.

that def seems to indicate that the marvel multiverse was weak in the same way the dc universe was. but i'm not sure maker was right:

https://imgur.com/a/IVjXs

bm seems to think eternity was stronger when the universes were separate. that is backed up by the fact that it wasn't until eternity was once again made a multiverse that he was able to break free of the first firmament. he was also noted as appearing healthier once the maker's plan was reversed.

https://imgur.com/a/0FrjI

even this is a bit unclear though since while a multiverse eternity couldn't break first firmament's chains, but once he became a universe, he could. so, we have what appears to be directly contradictory info. as a multiverse he couldn't break his bonds. as a universe he couldn't break free of FF, so... shrug

i think the weakness argument can be tossed. too much unclear in both cases imo.

the dumbest thing of all in the scans you showed though was BP somehow conquering the tiger god.

he then goes on to use the tiger god's power to literally shred logos to pieces. that means that BP, 1 on 1, defeated a being capable of wiping out the embodiment of multiversal law, the same entity, who effortlessly killed lt. and that was BEFORE chaos and order combined to become even more powerful.

and people wonder why i hate black panther.

Originally posted by leonidas
geezus prep....

anyway @galan. i agree that the 'weakness' of the universes seems to have been forgotten, or certainly never clearly defined. like i said earlier, i don't even know HOW they would be weaker. how is one parallel universe 'weaker' than another one...? could be as simple as the beings who populate it i guess, but that difference would be essentially non-existent.

to me, as regards this particular battle, the supposed 'weakness' of the universes is a non-issue: it simply depends on how you see the totality of the pre-crisis multiverse. Like you said: even IF each universe in the multiverse was 'weaker' than the original, we don't have a darned clue HOW/WHY they were weaker...as it stands now, you could literally make up, and insert, ANY reason you want.

That said, I personally don't see any reason why such vague 'evidence' should be regarded as the one and only truth regarding DC cosmology...especially when decades-worth of canon retellings of the creation-event/COIE make absolutely NO mention of the universes becoming 'weaker' when the expansion occurred. As mentioned, in the dozens of retellings I've read over the years(some of which are posted here), DC really makes NO distinction at all -- a universe is a universe is a universe. There is no discernible difference between them from a cosmological POV(ie. size/scale/power/etc.) /shrug

IOW, it doesn't make a universal/multiversal power in DC any 'lesser' than a universal/multiversal power in Marvel(which ultimately became the crux of this debate when goob first brought up that scan years ago.) I have always found THAT to be a ridiculous way for people to try and mindlessly lowball DC.


But again: I really don't want anything to do with this side of the debate(it burned me out YEARS ago, lol.) I'm just throwing some of the baseline canon out there... People can do whatever the hell they want with it from there.

Originally posted by leonidas
if the AM universe simply grew as a balance, it still seems to have stemmed directly from the fracturing of that first universe and was spawned by the power released at that time. even wayyyy back in GL 40, it's shown that the 'evil' is released when the universe is fractured by krona. based on that, it doesn't seem unreasonable to view the complete pre-crisis multiverse as being AM+positive. and if that's the case, current eternity>AM.

if you view the totality as being just the positive matter, and the AM universe wholly separate, then obviously AM>eternity. i just don't know how to reconcile that stance given the pretty explicit descriptions of the AM universe and its being created along with the parallel earths. shrug I guess I'm not sure what you're asking/saying here, leo..? mmm

The anti-matter universe was created as a direct result of the original multiversal fracture/expanse -- its purpose was essentially to balance-out the positive matter multiverse. So on one side of the coin you have the pre-crisis multiverse, which was comprised of an infinite amount of positive matter universes. On the other side of the coin you have the anti-matter universe to balance-out all the positive matter. ie. they are intimately connected; but wholly separate at the same time.

Originally posted by Galan007
I guess I'm not sure what you're asking/saying here, leo..? mmm

The anti-matter universe was created as a direct result of the original multiversal fracture/expanse -- its purpose was essentially to balance-out the positive matter multiverse. So on one side of the coin you have the pre-crisis multiverse, which was comprised of an infinite amount of positive matter universes. On the other side of the coin you have the anti-matter universe to balance-out all the positive matter. ie. they are intimately connected; but wholly separate at the same time.

i guess i'm not getting where YOU'RE getting the AM universe came into being for the sole purpose of balancing out the prime. it seems to me that the AM universe came into being at the breaking of that first universe, and was formed in the same way the other parallels were.

the "pot" of power, so to speak, that the first universe contained shattered into the prime AND anti-matter universes. that would mean the first universe was actually the sum total of BOTH universes. half the power created the positive matter multiverse and half went to create the AM universe.

you seem to be saying the first universe broke and expended ALL its power into the positive matter multiverse and that the AM universe just popped into being from....no where? it came to exist just to balance the positive? but where did the power for its formation come from if not the initial fracturing of that first universe? the things i've read seem to support both positive and antimatter coming from the initial breaking of that first universe so it seems reasonable to think both were powered BY that first universe....

Originally posted by leonidas
i guess i'm not getting where YOU'RE getting the AM universe came into being for the sole purpose of balancing out the prime. it seems to me that the AM universe came into being at the breaking of that first universe, and was formed in the same way the other parallels were. The sequence of events is as follows:
Krona peers back to the dawn of time, reality is fractured, the AMU is spawned FIRST, then the positive matter universe is formed shortly thereafter:
http://i.imgur.com/3Wt8eI9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZeyOaE8.jpg
*Note that Harbinger states all universes were "DUPLICATES" of the original -- no mention of them being 'weaker'. God, I HATE inconsistency in large-scale events... But COIE was full of them, so I digress...


Anywho, another factoid mentioned in the retelling is that Anti-Monitor was born with the anti-matter universe, THEN the original Monitor was born with the positive matter universe -- SOLELY to balance him out:
https://i.imgur.com/u1ulCh2.jpg
"...Then, as if in protest to some cosmic IMBALANCE, doppelganger was spawned on that lifeless moon of Oa... That was the day the Monitor was born."

...And since BOTH characters essentially embody the anti-matter and positive matter cosmos' respectively, logic dictates that the cosmos' themselves were spawned out of the same basic necessity: balance.

Originally posted by leonidas
half the power created the positive matter multiverse and half went to create the AM universe. Woah, where was THIS stated? Have I been missing something HUGE, here..?

I mean, I get that the whole 'weaker universes' thing was mentioned a few times throughout COIE itself, but unless I missed something, aren't you taking that concept to rather excessive levels here..? As you yourself have pointed out: even IF you believe the universes were indeed 'weaker', we have absolutely no clue HOW or WHY they were 'weaker'(even the few other statements we were given in COIE regarding the 'weaker universes' STILL don't explain this with ANY detail whatsoever.)

...Which is why your stance here is a bit perplexing to me. You're typically one of the first people who would disregard 'evidence' THIS thin..?

Originally posted by leonidas
the dumbest thing of all in the scans you showed though was BP somehow conquering the tiger god.

he then goes on to use the tiger god's power to literally shred logos to pieces. that means that BP, 1 on 1, defeated a being capable of wiping out the embodiment of multiversal law, the same entity, who effortlessly killed lt. and that was BEFORE chaos and order combined to become even more powerful.

and people wonder why i hate black panther.

There are extreme inaccuracies in your above account.

Originally posted by Galan007
Woah, where was THIS stated? Have I been missing something HUGE, here..?

I mean, I get that the whole 'weaker universes' thing was mentioned a few times throughout COIE itself, but unless I missed something, aren't you taking that concept to rather excessive levels here..? As you yourself have pointed out: even IF you believe the universes were indeed 'weaker', we have absolutely no clue HOW or WHY they were 'weaker'(even the few other statements we were given in COIE regarding the 'weaker universes' STILL don't explain this with ANY detail whatsoever.)

...Which is why your stance here is a bit perplexing to me. You're typically one of the first people who would disregard 'evidence' THIS thin..?

i had to reread this a couple times but now i get your shock at my comment...

i wasn't even THINKING about the 'weaker universes' issue, and i didn't mean to imply the PMM was only 'half' as strong as the marvel multiverse, but i can see why you would think i was alluding to it. and i guess it sort of even makes some sense now that you put it out there. but what would 'a half strength multiverse' even mean? i used the term half, simply to help illustrate my point, nothing more.

my main point has always been that the PMU and the AMU both seem to have been born from the dissolution of the first universe, that's it. to me, it seems the first universe split into a positive matter multiverse and an antimatter universe. how the power released by the fracturing was distributed is irrelevant to me, and frankly, impossible to determine. i mean the AM was just a single UNIVERSE, but somehow the anti-monitor matched the multiversal monitor, so... shrug

bottomline: PMU + AMU SEEMS to equal the FIRST universe. not sure how else to reconcile the existence of the AMU. /shrug

for purposes of this thread though, it would mean eternity>AM because while both were mutliversal, eternity=FULL mutliverse, while AM=NEARLY full multiverse.

now, i still haven't gone back and reread the entire series--no time the last few days, so i may very well be wrong and missing some info. just based on a cursory look and some of what has been said here, this is how it looks to me atm. love for you to fill in missing pieces if they're out there because i'd actually like to admit to being completely wrong here.

New 52, for example, was made 'weaker' by having the heroes lose their memories/not fighting together.

'Weaker' doesn't suddenly mean half of infinity - which would still mean infinity, btw.

agreed 100%.

even if, for example, the PMM WAS made using only half the power of the FULL original universe, it wouldn't mean anything from a practical standpoint, and wouldn't mean anything in relation to the characters or....pretty well anything of any relevance that i can think of. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
i had to reread this a couple times but now i get your shock at my comment...

i wasn't even THINKING about the 'weaker universes' issue, and i didn't mean to imply the PMM was only 'half' as strong as the marvel multiverse, but i can see why you would think i was alluding to it. and i guess it sort of even makes some sense now that you put it out there. but what would 'a half strength multiverse' even mean? i used the term half, simply to help illustrate my point, nothing more. *Whew*... Thank God.

I thought you were going full-Master on me, leo.




Originally posted by leonidas
bottomline: PMU + AMU SEEMS to equal the FIRST universe. not sure how else to reconcile the existence of the AMU. /shrug That's the thing, though- we know, for a fact, that the power of the AMU was EQUAL to the power of the entire PMM for reasons I mentioned in my very first post here. In a nutshell: Monitor was powered by the ENTIRE positive matter multiverse, while AM was powered by the anti-matter universe... And their powers were IDENTICAL when they first battled one another eons ago:
http://i.imgur.com/XscUmyT.jpg
"A war waged with EQUAL POWER..."


So as I mentioned above: the AMU possessed just as much raw/cumulative POWER as the PMM -- even though the former was comprised of *a* universe, while the latter was comprised of *infinite* universeS... Comic book logic at its finest right thur, lol.


Anywho, that's why I have always maintained that *peak* AM was the rough-equivalent of a Megaversal power. He was already equal to a multiversal power at his BASE level, and then stacked another multiverse-worth of power on top of that when he absorbed the AMU itself(as it had the added power of the ENTIRE PMM, minus 5 individual universes.) Multiverse + Multiverse = Megaverse. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
agreed 100%.

even if, for example, the PMM WAS made using only half the power of the FULL original universe, it wouldn't mean anything from a practical standpoint, and wouldn't mean anything in relation to the characters or....pretty well anything of any relevance that i can think of. /shrug http://i.imgur.com/XCavvfK.gif

ok, now that no one is jumping off any bridges... ftr, the only difference between our stances relates to the source of the AMU. like i said, it seems to me that it's creation is sourced in the first universe. if so, the totality of that first universe is the sum of both the AMU AND the PMM. if that's true the AM would be nearly FULLY multiversal--he is still multiversal regardless, but he'd be missing some to be FULLY multiversal.

you seem to believe that when the first universe broke, all of its power went into the creation of ONLY the PMM. the AMU only came into being...somehow as an evil reflection or balance caused by krona. if your interpretation is correct, then AM really IS megaversal.

tbh it isn't really spelled out very clearly WHICH interpretation is correct so ima drop it and admit to not knowing for sure either way. the confusion for me comes from the fact that krona let 'evil' in, so...maybe the AMU DID just pop into existence as a result of his looking too deeply into things. kinda like what we're doing. lol

Originally posted by leonidas


ok, now that no one is jumping off any bridges... ftr, the only difference between our stances relates to the source of the AMU. like i said, it seems to me that it's creation is sourced in the first universe. if so, the totality of that first universe is the sum of both the AMU AND the PMM. if that's true the AM would be nearly FULLY multiversal--he is still multiversal regardless, but he'd be missing some to be FULLY multiversal.

you seem to believe that when the first universe broke, all of its power went into the creation of ONLY the PMM. the AMU only came into being...somehow as an evil reflection or balance caused by krona. if your interpretation is correct, then AM really IS megaversal.

tbh it isn't really spelled out very clearly WHICH interpretation is correct so ima drop it and admit to not knowing for sure either way. the confusion for me comes from the fact that krona let 'evil' in, so...maybe the AMU DID just pop into existence as a result of his looking too deeply into things. kinda like what we're doing. lol My stance stems from the fact that the PMM and AMU are treated as two wholly separate things. That's why Monitor, who was powered by the entire infinite multiverse, had absolutely NO power/authority there -- that's why he was weakened every time AM destroyed a positive matter universe and allowed anti-matter to fill that void. Said cosmos' are completely independent from one another in a very unique way.

As mentioned: I think the retellings of DC's creation-event allude to the AMU being spawned 'ex nihilo', as a form of cosmological balance/necessity(or maybe even spite, if you will) that resulted from Krona's inept meddling... A 'higher authority' wasn't happy that Krona tried to see the unseeable, so he/it lashed back by introducing a universe of pure evil into the original, relatively benign, creation(which is why the AMU actually predates the multiverse-proper.) But I digress... /shrug


Regardless, now that we've ironed-out some of our initial miscommunication, it does seem that our opinions are pretty much the same here(effing hilarious how that works, isn't it? ) Only difference is basically one, somewhat ambiguous, bit of cosmology regarding the AMU's creation... but like you said: I think we've over-analyzed this WAY more than we ever needed to, because it ultimately doesn't f*cking matter anyway, lol.


tl;dr
WEE AM NURD!!!111!!!1!! duryes

Eternity wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Eternity wins.

Quan! Where ya been?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Quan! Where ya been? Internet forums lost their sense of satisfaction for a time. I seek combat and those who disagree with me. I seek to be satiated. I hope the DC fans light the beacons of Gondor. Their great enemy has endured. The spirit of Quan lives.

AM