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https://i.imgur.com/jQcx1hF.jpg

vs

https://i.imgur.com/0rOSmds.jpg

todd kills him. batroc isn't terrible though.

Yea I'm thinking Jason Todds weapons will give him the win.

https://tinyurl.com/yc32a6jd

Originally posted by Deadline
Yea I'm thinking Jason Todds weapons will give him the win.

If he decided to use them.

He doesn't gun down h2h fighters, from what I know.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
If he decided to use them.

He doesn't gun down h2h fighters, from what I know.

If its h2h Batroc wins.

Originally posted by Deadline
If its h2h Batroc wins.

Jason dropped his guns to the ground against Venom-less Bane.

Guess what happened next.

Jason is just as skilled in HTH, though. As far as weapons, Jason doesn't have his armor or most powerful weapons.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Jason dropped his guns to the ground against Venom-less Bane.

Guess what happened next.

Oh ok....

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Jason is just as skilled in HTH, though. As far as weapons, Jason doesn't have his armor or most powerful weapons.

Dunno about that.

As a student of the All-Caste, Jason was able to last longer against Cassandra than Dick Grayson who was owned. Don't sleep on Jason's skills. He got a pretty big push since Lobdell took over his character

Originally posted by Deadline
Oh ok....



1. https://i.imgur.com/093CSfu.jpg
2. https://i.imgur.com/HarxbV8.jpg
3. https://i.imgur.com/AzK7Y9M.jpg
4. https://i.imgur.com/TfLZMMV.jpg

Originally posted by Senor Cage
As a student of the All-Caste, Jason was able to last longer against Cassandra than Dick Grayson who was owned. Don't sleep on Jason's skills. He got a pretty big push since Lobdell took over his character

Ok but I'm pretty sure I saw one fight with Grayson with Batgirl where he did well and Grayson seems to have gotten better since then. I'd still bet on Batroc being better in h2h.

Batroc's got plenty of absurd feats, he's just getting slept on, as he's a goofy stereotype villain.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Batroc's got plenty of absurd feats, he's just getting slept on, as he's a goofy stereotype villain.

I know.

Originally posted by Deadline
Ok but I'm pretty sure I saw one fight with Grayson with Batgirl where he did well and Grayson seems to have gotten better since then. I'd still bet on Batroc being better in h2h.

This was during the Batman Eternal series. Cassandra pretty much handed his ass. Batman also stated that Cassandra is probably better than he. I know Jason highly relies on his gear (armor and weapons), but he doesn't currently have that, which makes this fight a bit even.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
This was during the Batman Eternal series. Cassandra pretty much handed his ass. Batman also stated that Cassandra is probably better than he. I know Jason highly relies on his gear (armor and weapons), but he doesn't currently have that, which makes this fight a bit even.

No gears he's losing. Batrock has done well against Captain America and Captain America is better than Batman and Batgirl. Not really sure there is a lot of evdience to prove that Batgirl is better than Batman. Ok anyway that's one fight were he got his butt handed to him when he's done well, I bet there were circumstances to the fight.

Originally posted by Deadline
No gears he's losing. Batrock has done well against Captain America and Captain America is better than Batman and Batgirl. Not really sure there is a lot of evdience to prove that Batgirl is better than Batman. Ok anyway that's one fight were he got his butt handed to him when he's done well, I bet there were circumstances to the fight.

Not a lot, just Batman's opinion, which should not be taken lightly.

https://i.imgur.com/TNJoM4H.jpg

With gear, Jason definitely has the edge. His armor withstood a nuke, Frankenstein's blows, Bane, etc...

But, we're just using current Todd here.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Not a lot, just Batman's opinion, which should not be taken lightly.

https://i.imgur.com/TNJoM4H.jpg

With gear, Jason definitely has the edge. His armor withstood a nuke, Frankenstein's blows, Bane, etc...

But, we're just using current Todd here.

I gotta say man it kinda looks like Grayson had never met her before and clearly wasn't expecting her to be so good.

Batman isn't at the top anymore, as confirmed by Tom King and Tynion.

It's

Shiva (Who owned Batman)
Cassandra
Batman
Jason/Dick

Batman's Tom King Ranks the Batfamily by Combat Prowess

When did Shiva own Batman? He has got good showings against her. I dunno man ok I'm open to Cassandra being better than Batman dunno about Grayson though. Still don't think Cassandra is better than Cap or Shiva. Cap is basically Deathstroke.

Originally posted by Deadline
I gotta say man it kinda looks like Grayson had never met her before and clearly wasn't expecting her to be so good.

Get used to it.

DC rebooted more times than Frank Castle reloaded his shotgun.

Originally posted by Deadline
When did Shiva own Batman? He has got good showings against her. I dunno man ok I'm open to Cassandra being better than Batman dunno about Grayson though. Still don't think Cassandra is better than Cap or Shiva. Cap is basically Deathstroke.

In the League of Shadows arc. Shiva basically took on the batfamily singlehandedly.

Batman also did well against Slade. Even knocking him out in one encounter.

Batroc outdoes Jason Todd in h2h. He'd probably lose or the majority due to equipment.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Batman isn't at the top anymore, as confirmed by Tom King and Tynion.

It's

Shiva (Who owned Batman)
Cassandra
Batman
Jason/Dick

Batman's Tom King Ranks the Batfamily by Combat Prowess

That's a terrible list. Thank God we don't go by writers opinions

Originally posted by Sin I AM
That's a terrible list. Thank God we don't go by writers opinions

The top 3 or so are spot on though. Cassandra's on another level.

back in the day like 13 years ago, cassie was better more skilled than bruce and dick. then she disappeared, we got stephanie brown then barbra took over after reboot, batgirl is viewed again as the lower tier of the bat family

Originally posted by Senor Cage
The top 3 or so are spot on though. Cassandra's on another level.


Cass is fine. Grayson is not

Grayson did go toe to toe with Batman.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
In the League of Shadows arc. Shiva basically took on the batfamily singlehandedly.

Batman also did well against Slade. Even knocking him out in one encounter.

Yea and I think that in that encounter DS beatdown Batman a couple of times easily and wasn't concentrating on Batman but on a target. Finally DS got fed up with him but Batman got lucky because DS was not giving him his full attention. Batman will do well against DS but in a straight up fight will lose because DS is just superior to Batman.


Originally posted by Sin I AM
That's a terrible list. Thank God we don't go by writers opinions

Depends.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Cass is fine. Grayson is not

Grayson is like a younger and more naturally talented fighter than Bruce, there is absolute zero reason for him to be inferior of a fighter unless you rate highly Batman-bullsh*t abilities such as slowing down his heart rate to block poison and other crap.

Originally posted by Bentley
Grayson is like a younger and more naturally talented fighter than Bruce, there is absolute zero reason for him to be inferior of a fighter unless you rate highly Batman-bullsh*t abilities such as slowing down his heart rate to block poison and other crap. Your hate of Batman makes you lose any logical sense.

Not only is this wrong , but Nightwing would be a better fighter than Bruce was at that age, not at Bruce's current age.

Bruce has been training longer, has been doing it longer, has had a bigger drive to expand his skill, a bigger pool of knowledge, a bigger pool of trainers, a bigger pool of opponents etc.

There's absolutely zero arguments here.

First of all, of course my Batman hate blinds me to all reason, that should be obvious!

Second of all, the fact that Dick managed to catch up with Bruce and perform feats to his level on a fighting perspective despite having less training time, and as you said, being less obsessed than he is on the matter, proves he's much more talented. Thanks for helping me win that point Phil

As far as I know it has never been stated that Bruce is genetically modelled to be the best fighter in the world? That alone would permit other fighters to have more sheer potential than him. Unless I missed some random retcon?

Edit: but I see your point better after the edit, yes, technically Bruce can still have an edge here due to experience and such. It shouldn't be a given though

imo, Dick is a more naturally gifted acrobat. Not a more naturally gifted fighter. He's not Bruce's superior. None of the family outside of probably Cass are when it really comes down to it.

Originally posted by Bentley
First of all, of course my Batman hate blinds me to all reason, that should be obvious!

Originally posted by Bentley
Second of all, the fact that Dick managed to catch up with Bruce and perform feats to his level on a fighting perspective despite having less training time, and as you said, being less obsessed than he is on the matter, proves he's much more talented. Thanks for helping me win that point Phil Dick doesn't have Bruce's feats. He is an acomplished fighter - but Jason is, too. Tim is, too. Damien is, too. That's because all of them started fighting since they were in their early teens - which is where an argument could be made that they would be more skilled at the same age, but overall, they're not even close.

Damien is a better fighter than Dick, at 10 year old. He's probably a better fighter at 5 years old, than Dick was at 10. That's because he started even earlier than the other Robins. Following your logic, is Damien a more natural fighter than Dick? What about Bruce?

You have no argument.

Originally posted by Bentley
As far as I know it has never been stated that Bruce is genetically modelled to be the best fighter in the world? That alone would permit other fighters to have more sheer potential than him. Unless I missed some random retcon? I never said he has - but you said that Dick is. Which is not true.

Originally posted by Bentley
Edit: but I see your point better after the edit, yes, technically Bruce can still have an edge here due to experience and such. It shouldn't be a given though It is provable by feats, by logic, by history -- by virtually everything you want.

Dick being a more naturally gifted acrobat is already established. Him being a superior fighter can be argued.

It's pretty difficult to outshine Batman in fighting abilities because he has what's probably the highest fighting IQ in all comicdom. He is consistently handling people that are stronger, faster and have better technical abilities due to his capabilities to plan ahead and adapt.

Let's face it, unless he gets speedblitzed or something you guys are never going to give anyone an edge over him ahah

Originally posted by Bentley
Him being a superior fighter can be argued. I don't think it can. Even if you ignore everything else and strip it down - Bruce's character is literally about obsessively trying to know and apply everything. He knows the most ridiculous, obscure martial arts stuff, and has thought endlessly about this sort of stuff. There's only a few people that are on that level, either specialists who have dedicated their entire lives to martial arts , futuristic Martial Artists or body-reading-language autist former-killers .

Dick simply isn't that. He's a natural acrobat, who got trained and fought a few years under Bruce, then went on and became his own superhero - but the obsession to become the best and prepared for everything was never there for him, and even less so after leaving Bruce.

It could be argued that Batman has greater feats than characters he's inferior to in h2h it don't neccesarily mean he's superior, but I'm fine with Grayson not begin as good as Batman in h2h.