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No bfr, who wins?

Beyonder.

Beyonder.

done to death, this is just another variation of lucifer vs beyonder

michael wins easily

Michael

Beyonder has done, solo, what it took Lucifer AND Michael to accomplish : creating a universe, creating life, erasing an Abstract from creation, destroying a galaxy, causing multiversal wide destruction, etc...

creating a universe is not even close to what lucifer/michael what accomplished

creating life? lmfao

destroying a galaxy? rofl

Originally posted by zopzop
Beyonder has done, solo, what it took Lucifer AND Michael to accomplish : creating a universe, creating life, erasing an Abstract from creation, destroying a galaxy, causing multiversal wide destruction, etc...



Homo or not, you're the only one in the whole KMC history with the balls to say this:

Originally posted by zopzop
Those Vertigo characters are such over-wanked trash.

it be one thing if you read anything lucifer/beyonder related or know anything about these characters at all.

Originally posted by MrMind
creating a universe is not even close to what lucifer/michael what accomplished

creating life? lmfao

destroying a galaxy? rofl
Oh please. Lucifer couldn't do sh|t creation-wise without his brother's power. Accomplished only after his brother died, never to return again. And it was mentioned as a universe multiple times.

Beyonder was doing that crap all by his lonesome.

https://i.ibb.co/RyDqd15/88ues1.jpg

Originally posted by MrMind
creating a universe is not even close to what lucifer/michael what accomplished What more beyond that did they accomplish?

at the very least a multiverse

https://i.ibb.co/7G8T6Yb/5401998-lucifer-multiverse.jpg

this was again reconfirmed in v2 when lucifer mentioned during v1 he left presence creation and went into the infinite void after creating his own multiverse.
https://i.ibb.co/r65R49Y/5401999-lucifer-multiverses.png

Originally posted by zopzop
Oh please. Lucifer couldn't do sh|t creation-wise without his brother's power. Accomplished only after his brother died, never to return again. And it was mentioned as a universe multiple times.

Beyonder was doing that crap all by his lonesome.

oh please, lucy was erasing infinite universes in mansion of silence just by the presence of him being there

he tanked multiversal blasts three times, including one time when he was severely weakened

he also used michael's energy to create a infinite multiverse apart from presence's, with higher dimensions and realms

Lucifer was wiping an Eldritch being (of whom has leached off of multiple universes beyond DC, and not made by the Presence) out of existence with a thought

beyonder was doing what crap in his lonesome? he never created or destroyed a multiverse on panel. all he has was hype statements that wasn't backed up by feats. and none of it was impressive consider how small marvel cosmology/multiverse is compared to dc.

so what it was mentioned as universe? in marvel ewing used universe/multiverse/omniverse interchangeably. the scale of what lucy and mike was operating at was absolutely gigantic. to discredit you will have to go the retarded astner route of seperating gaiman/carey cosmology from mainstream dc as a whole. (which was debunked by me at least 3 times already)

to prove beyonder can stand up to lucifer in power you first need to prove marvel multiverse (include the beyond realm） is the same size as dc

Originally posted by MrMind
oh please, lucy was erasing infinite universes in mansion of silence just by the presence of him being there

he tanked multiversal blasts three times, including one time when he was severely weakened

he also used michael's energy to create a infinite multiverse apart from presence's, with higher dimensions and realms

Lucifer was wiping an Eldritch being (of whom has leached off of multiple universes beyond DC, and not made by the Presence) out of existence with a thought

beyonder was doing what crap in his lonesome? he never created or destroyed a multiverse on panel. all he has was hype statements that wasn't backed up by feats. and none of it was impressive consider how small marvel cosmology/multiverse is compared to dc.

so what it was mentioned as universe? in marvel ewing used universe/multiverse/omniverse interchangeably. the scale of what lucy and mike was operating at was absolutely gigantic. to discredit you will have to go the retarded astner route of seperating gaiman/carey cosmology from mainstream dc as a whole. (which was debunked by me at least 3 times already)

to prove beyonder can stand up to lucifer in power you first need to prove marvel multiverse (include the beyond realm） is the same size as dc
Half the stuff you mentioned, tanking multiversal blasts, destroying lesser realms with his presence, the Beyonder's done. While in MORTAL form.

One feat you mentioned for Lucifer involves using his now dead brother's energy to accomplish. And like I've said, Lucifer's creation USING HIS BROTHER'S POWER was mentioned as a universe just as many times as it was mentioned as a multiverse. So big deal.

I've never seen you dominant like this before.

Poor MrMind is getting ragdolled left and right.

He's about to squat and take a steaming dump on Mind's chest.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yet Michael died and was never able to recover. His greatest feat required him to DIE expending all his energy so his brother, Lucifer, who was specificially made to shape that energy could form something out of it. Lucifer almost died too but was saved last second by one of his cronies.

Beyonder doesn't need anyone or anything for him to create, destroy, restore, or erase. His enemies have tried to kill him multiple times and each time he raises himself up under his own power and goes about his business as usual.

Last time I checked, Michael's still deader than a door nail, right? I suppose Michael's greatest solo feat would be using his energy to renew every single atom of Yahweh's creation -- a task that, per the Angels, only God himself could accomplish.

His Demiurgic power was also used:
-As the foundation/power-source for Lucifer's creation.
-As the foundation/power-source that would enable Elaine to become the next God/Yahweh.

Also worth mentioning that Carey has stated in interviews since that he views the terms "universe" and "multiverse" interchangeably. In his eyes, they represent the exact same thing: the sum total of creation(ie. a myriad of realms/dimensions, etc)... Effectively everything within the Vertigo-verse at the time.

Originally posted by Galan007
I suppose Michael's greatest solo feat would be using his energy to renew every single atom of Yahweh's creation -- a task that, per the Angels, only God himself could accomplish.

His Demiurgic power was also used:
-As the foundation/power-source for Lucifer's creation.
-As the foundation/power-source that would enable Elaine to become the next God/Yahweh.

Ok.


Marvel's 616 reality has also been described as a multiverse with various god realms, pocket dimensions, etc..

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar124720_6.gif https://i.ibb.co/5T0QsMS/bg1.png http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar75820_116.gif

https://i.ibb.co/sJCQH1d/ezgif-com-optimize-8.gif

Same energy

Originally posted by zopzop
Yet Michael died and was never able to recover. His greatest feat required him to DIE expending all his energy so his brother, Lucifer, who was specificially made to shape that energy could form something out of it. Lucifer almost died too but was saved last second by one of his cronies.

Beyonder doesn't need anyone or anything for him to create, destroy, restore, or erase. His enemies have tried to kill him multiple times and each time he raises himself up under his own power and goes about his business as usual.

Last time I checked, Michael's still deader than a door nail, right?


you should actually read the story and find out yourself, because just reading your posts there are so many errors you almost seem clueless

as long as creation exist michael cannot die. the only way for michael to die and not reborn is to take his dunamis demiurgos power from him and give it to somebody else (like him giving it to elaine), or else the entire creation die with him

when michael was stabbed by lucifer (willingly), so lucifer can create another multiverse. michael reborn instantly, his rebirth was what triggered lucifer's big bang.

the second time, he was fighting fenris possessed lucifer. and he was holding back, he did not want to hurt his brother. thus lucy was able to kill him. and as he was dying, he gave all his power to his daughter elaine. cause the entire creation/multiverse would go with him if he dies. without his dunamis power he's just a mortal shell and that's when he actually died. he died but his power never went away. the dunamis demiurgos power reside within elaine now.

beyonder doesn't compare to the dunamis demiurgos power it just doesn't. that's the power of the presence/yahweh. in marvel term it's the power of toaa.

when michael was inside the logos he was able to use that power to renew God's name on every atom in creation

for beyonder to compare you first need to prove the marvel multiverse is on the same level of scale/size as dc (which is not), then you have to prove beyonder possess the power equivalent to the one above all that can build and end creations (which he cannot), then we can have a logical discussion.

if we are gonna just reduce to lowballing like you are doing. I'll just start pulling out scans of puma, but that kind of discussion really won't get us anywhere

Originally posted by zopzop


Ok.


Marvel's 616 reality has also been described as a multiverse with various god realms, pocket dimensions, etc..

what does that have to do with anything

in dc the new 52 is a local multiverse with various realms and dimensions yet it is only a small part of the cosmo, a local area of the entire dc multiverse

similar to 616

when you are talking marvel 616 as a multiverse, the word multiverse does not mean infinite in the sense of scale/size

but the dc/vertigo multiverse was/is infinite

Originally posted by MrMind
you should actually read the story and find out yourself, because just reading your posts there are so many errors you almost seem clueless

as long as creation exist michael cannot die. the only way for michael to die and not reborn is to take his dunamis demiurgos power from him and give it to somebody else (like him giving it to elaine), or else the entire creation die with him

when michael was stabbed by lucifer (willingly), so lucifer can create another multiverse. michael reborn instantly, his rebirth was what triggered lucifer's big bang.

the second time, he was fighting fenris possessed lucifer. and he was holding back, he did not want to hurt his brother. thus lucy was able to kill him. and as he was dying, he gave all his power to his daughter elaine. cause the entire creation/multiverse would go with him if he dies. without his dunamis power he's just a mortal shell and that's when he actually died. he died but his power never went away. the dunamis demiurgos power reside within elaine now.

beyonder doesn't compare to the dunamis demiurgos power it just doesn't. that's the power of the presence/yahweh. in marvel term it's the power of toaa.

when michael was inside the logos he was able to use that power to renew God's name on every atom in creation

for beyonder to compare you first need to prove the marvel multiverse is on the same level of scale/size as dc (which is not), then you have to prove beyonder possess the power equivalent to the one above all that can build and end creations (which he cannot), then we can have a logical discussion.

if we are gonna just reduce to lowballing like you are doing. I'll just start pulling out scans of puma, but that kind of discussion really won't get us anywhere
So he's dead and not coming back. My point exactly. Beyonder in any of his forms just reconstitutes himself whenever he wants to come back.


Originally posted by MrMind
what does that have to do with anything

in dc the new 52 is a local multiverse with various realms and dimensions yet it is only a small part of the cosmo, a local area of the entire dc multiverse

similar to 616

when you are talking marvel 616 as a multiverse, the word multiverse does not mean infinite in the sense of scale/size

but the dc/vertigo multiverse was/is infinite
Oh please. Marvel's multiverse is also infinitely vast.

Originally posted by zopzop
So he's dead and not coming back. My point exactly. Beyonder in any of his forms just reconstitutes himself whenever he wants to come back.



Oh please. Marvel's multiverse is also infinitely vast.

I thought you said DCs was more vast and had more cosmic beings than marvels. Remember, Michael owned Spectre.

Golgo, why are you wearing Goku as your avatar?

Toriyama hired you?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Golgo, why are you wearing Goku as your avatar?

Toriyama hired you?

DBZ is the shit

Galan, Phil, Abhi, Golgo all agreeing that DBZ anally destroys DC.

Beautiful times we live in!

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I thought you said DCs was more vast and had more cosmic beings than marvels. Remember, Michael owned Spectre.
All of DC with it's crazy dimensions? Yes. Just Vertigo? No.

DC has characters that dwarf Beyonder (or anyone else in Marvel), see Mxy for example. Lucifer or Michael ain't it.

Originally posted by zopzop
All of DC with it's crazy dimensions? Yes. Just Vertigo? No.

DC has characters that dwarf Beyonder (or anyone else in Marvel), see Mxy for example. Lucifer or Michael ain't it.

Check out the current runs on Flash and Outsiders for new crazy dimensions/multiverse stuff.

Originally posted by MrMind
at the very least a multiverse

https://ibb.co/19hpwvb]https://i.ibb.co/7G8T6Yb/5401998-lucifer-multiverse.jpg

this was again reconfirmed in v2 when lucifer mentioned during v1 he left presence creation and went into the infinite void after creating his own multiverse.
https://ibb.co/yygcW2t]https://i.ibb.co/r65R49Y/5401999-lucifer-multiverses.png It's alright that you completely ignore the entirety of volumes 2-3 of Lucifer save for a select few panels. No problem as it's not my first rodeo.

So you would give similar full faith and credit to Chaos King who was announced as having eaten 98% of the Marvel Multiverse? Then a dying God Herc restored the entire Marvel Multiverse?

Let me know.

bro i was always on the camp that chaos king destroyed a multiverse

you are barking on the wrong tree

^ So by the lip service you rely on, then why aren't you of the persuasion that Beyonder outscales multiversal entities by millions of times? As if the Marvel Multiverse were a drop of water and Beyonder were the ocean?

again, you are assuming

i acknowledged the statements

it just pales in comparison to michael and dc cosmology

the marvel multiverse is infinitely smaller than dc

and if you contend that, we can pull out scans and start comparing

Originally posted by MrMind
again, you are assuming

i acknowledged the statements

it just pales in comparison to michael and dc cosmology

the marvel multiverse is infinitely smaller than dc

and if you contend that, we can pull out scans and start comparing Post away.

I assume you're aware of the statements that the Beyonder was millions times more powerful than the Marvel Multiverse. I also assume that you're aware that it was like a drop of water compared to the ocean that is the Beyond realm.

By all means, show me scans where Beyonder isn't even close to that scope of power that, apparently to you: Michael represents.

beyond realm view the marvel multiverse as a drop of water is at best

comparable to the monitor realm which view the entire dc third dimensional multiverse as germ

https://i.ibb.co/X41gjLn/7925899-5794835630-54331.jpg

and

far inferior to the dark multiverse which is the vast ocean the tiny multiverse (which include the monitor realm from the map) float on

https://imgur.com/jCuK7WY

we haven't even gotten into the fifth dimension, sixth dimension, overvoid

prove beyond realm bigger than monitor realm first, than we can scale above

baby steps

So people are talking about Beyonder in this thread like PR Beyonder is canon again. Is this the case? Is he back to being a far above multiversal badass?

Originally posted by NemeBro
So people are talking about Beyonder in this thread like PR Beyonder is canon again. Is this the case? Is he back to being a far above multiversal badass?
The majority of Pre Retcon Beyonder's feats are canon because they are mentioned in his handbook entry and/or on panel in later issues :
Molecule Man gathering all the free energy in the multiverse to create a force field and Beyonder casually shattering it
Beyonder laughing off a billion dimension destroying blast from Molecule Man
All the great powers of the multiverse including Eternity and the Living Tribunal unable to stop Beyonder from killing Death and unable to reverse the damage once he did it
Beyonder's essence creating a whole other reality when the heroes destroyed the machine he was incarnating in (he recreated himself there too)

*Keep in mind he did this while at HALF power and the majority of his time during Secret Wars I and II he was in mortal form.
**Also keep in mind, the multiversal feats of Molecule Man during SW I and II that are still canon actually belong to the Beyonder because Molecule Man had the other half of Beyonder's power.

Originally posted by zopzop
The majority of Pre Retcon Beyonder's feats are canon because they are mentioned in his handbook entry and/or on panel in later issues :
Molecule Man gathering all the free energy in the multiverse to create a force field and Beyonder casually shattering it
Beyonder laughing off a billion dimension destroying blast from Molecule Man
All the great powers of the multiverse including Eternity and the Living Tribunal unable to stop Beyonder from killing Death and unable to reverse the damage once he did it
Beyonder's essence creating a whole other reality when the heroes destroyed the machine he was incarnating in (he recreated himself there too)

*Keep in mind he did this while at HALF power and the majority of his time during Secret Wars I and II he was in mortal form.
**Also keep in mind, the multiversal feats of Molecule Man during SW I and II that are still canon actually belong to the Beyonder because Molecule Man had the other half of Beyonder's power.
Nope, those were retconned away as well.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope, those were retconned away as well.
When?
Everything I mentioned is in their handbook entries post retcon and on panel.

Originally posted by NemeBro
So people are talking about Beyonder in this thread like PR Beyonder is canon again. Is this the case? Is he back to being a far above multiversal badass?

sad thing is even pre retcon doesn't compare. arguably the strongest character in marvel history means nothing when we are comparing to stronger fictions.

it's like omni king is the strongest in dbz verse, yeah so what
comparing to stronger fiction like umineko
someone like battler ushiromiya would destroy him, featherine augustus aurora not needed.

everything zop mentioned here is at best on the level of michael without actually using his powers casually beating unbound spectre. nothing noteworthy

there's no one in marvel other than maybe toaa or thanos w/regulator that stand up to michael's dunamis demiurgos power (ie the power of god)

Originally posted by MrMind
beyond realm view the marvel multiverse as a drop of water is at best

comparable to the monitor realm which view the entire dc third dimensional multiverse as germ

https://ibb.co/59myG4Q]https://i.ibb.co/X41gjLn/7925899-5794835630-54331.jpg What does the Monitor realm matter to what Lucifer and Michael did?

michael is the son of presence (who wield his father's power in dunamis demiurgos)

presense is the creator of dc

nil is part of dc's creation

it's not possible to compare true power of michael and beyonder without comparing the size/scale of dc and marvel

Originally posted by MrMind
michael is the son of presence (who wield his father's power in dunamis demiurgos)

presense is the creator of dc You didn't answer my question. "What does the Monitor realm matter to what Lucifer and Michael did?"

You're just assuming that whatever the Monitors mentioned applies to Vertigo's Yahweh... which then applies to Lucifer and Michael...?

There are several characters who are on-panel responsible for the creation/destruction/recreation of the DC multiverse. All on-panel.

So, why do you consider Vertigo's Yahweh above all? And what feats does Vertigo's Yahweh have over Beyonder? Originally posted by MrMind
nil is part of dc's creation

it's not possible to compare true power of michael and beyonder without comparing the size/scale of dc and marvel That deepening sense of anxiety you're feeling right now is you realizing that I don't even have to deconstruct the absurd notion that the Marvel Multiverse is "infinitely smaller' than the DC Multiverse.

As you facetiously mentioned, baby steps first.

I mean if you are not gonna put in any effort showing the size/scale of marvel and keep on deflecting, I'm just gonna go back to smoking and watching gintama than wasting time with you.

vertigo yahweh is dc yahweh, last i checked destiny of the endless still sits on the of the dc multiverse map. if you want to say they are different characters, show scans and start posting actual substance.

it's true multiple people have feats showing creating dc, however it does not make lucifer/michael's feats any less canon.

ill wait for someone who actually debate in good faith

Originally posted by MrMind
vertigo yahweh is dc yahweh So you declare that despite all of the storylines depicting the Monitors having nothing to do with Vertigo Yahweh or Lucifer or Michael. Ok?

How is that an argument?

because gaiman/carey cosmology and morrison cosmology are all under the same umbrella of dc cosmology as a whole.

^ Let's set aside that Morrison's cosmology heavily conflicts with Gaiman/Carey cosmology... let alone your wildly distorted view of Gaiman/Carey cosmology...

Are you suggesting that what Morrison subsequently wrote -- that really has nothing to do with Vertigo's Yahweh/Lucifer/Michael -- reverse-inflates what Vertigo Michael represents?

That's a rhetorical question given that's obviously what you're insisting... so why aren't subsequent volumes actually featuring Vertigo's Yahweh/Lucifer/Michael influencing your opinion of their status?

https://i.giphy.com/uLy4Bo680hZxm.webp

Or... it's past your bedtime. I dunno.

Originally posted by zopzop
When?
Everything I mentioned is in their handbook entries post retcon and on panel.
Handbooks don't mean shit when actual comics made it clear even celestials were superior to post retcon Beyonder and the cosmic entities were just letting him think all that stuff happened.

Originally posted by MrMind
because gaiman/carey cosmology and morrison cosmology are all under the same umbrella of dc cosmology as a whole.
Just mention Dream actually appeared in Dark Nights Metal and Barbatos burning his library is a plot point in Sandman universe.

You would all be great debaters if you weren't so insanely biased towards a particular company

Does Philo ever come around here anymore, I always enjoyed his take on things.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
You would all be great debaters if you weren't so insanely biased towards a particular company
😔😔😔

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Does Philo ever come around here anymore, I always enjoyed his take on things.

Phildo is the worst and I'm glad he got so scared of me he ran off

Or explain any of Dr Fate/Hector Halls story.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Handbooks don't mean shit when actual comics made it clear even celestials were superior to post retcon Beyonder and the cosmic entities were just letting him think all that stuff happened.
Handbooks can confirm what went on on panel.

And here are some examples on panel all of these are Post Retcon, pay special attention to the first one, it's the Trial of Death :
https://i.postimg.cc/7byqM6yW/Dimension-Of-Manifestations-Marvel-Comics.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/gLKS34Pm/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/QKDYBwwf/image.jpg
Beyonder wins.

Originally posted by zopzop
Handbooks can confirm what went on on panel.

And here are some examples on panel all of these are Post Retcon, pay special attention to the first one, it's the Trial of Death :
https://i.postimg.cc/7byqM6yW/Dimension-Of-Manifestations-Marvel-Comics.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/gLKS34Pm/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/QKDYBwwf/image.jpg
Beyonder wins.
That's just an iteration of cosmic entities letting Beyonder think he was cool lol.

Are we talking about Defenders Beyond version of the Beyonder who was shit scared of Phoenix Force (who got stalemated by Tiger God who lost to White Tiger and Black Panther under Ewing)?

Dude, stop smoking crack.

Or the debaser who was fought off by Monica Rambeau lol. Ewing made Beyonder a joke.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just mention Dream actually appeared in Dark Nights Metal and Barbatos burning his library is a plot point in Sandman universe.

i get what he was trying to argue

which is different writers build their worlds differently

when morrison wrote final crisis he didn't have (endless/lucifer/michael etc) in mind

when carey wrote lucifer, or gaiman wrote sandman monitors/nil/mandrakk etc wasn't a thing

but it's all canon

that's why it's so disingenuous when the likes of odg/astner etc want to use only feats from a specific run and disregard everything else.

especially for cross company fights, the bigger cosmology within a company needs to be presented for it to make sense when comparing scope of powers

it's good that death metal and dark crisis happened. watters and snyder tied a lot of loose ends together and definitely boosted dc cosmology into new height of power(despite the quality of the story)

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's just an iteration of cosmic entities letting Beyonder think he was cool lol.

Are we talking about Defenders Beyond version of the Beyonder who was shit scared of Phoenix Force (who got stalemated by Tiger God who lost to White Tiger and Black Panther under Ewing)?

Dude, stop smoking crack.
That scan confirms what happened in SWII and the handbook entry. The cosmic entities were begging Beyonder not to kill Death. Death's death is even mentioned in her damn handbook entry too. All this post retcon.

That scan confirmed the SWII and Handbook entries. It also confirmed that the Beyonders are abstract killers. They were capable of destroying their Celestial creators (who just happened to create the multiverse).

Zopzop kicking names....and taking ass right now.

Ah yes, The Beyonder killing Death feat, taking most of his power to do it, while he was supposedly more powerful than everyone in the Marvel Multiverse.. This guy is more power than Michael, 1 the 3 beings who created the DCU?

Originally posted by kevdude
Ah yes, The Beyonder killing Death feat, taking most of his power to do it, while he was supposedly more powerful than everyone in the Marvel Multiverse.. This guy is more power than Michael, 1 the 3 beings who created the DCU?
He was at half power at the time and not one of the abstracts could stop him or reverse the damage.

Need I remind you Dream was imprisoned for decades by a mortal sorcerer and couldn't free himself. The magician was actually trying to imprison Death of the Endless but he was such a noob he snared Dream instead. How's that for lowballing?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Zopzop kicking names....and taking ass right now.

What does someone bamboozling Dream have to do with Michael?

Genuinely asking, I am only broadly familiar with the character but my understanding is that Lucifer (and by extension Michael) are far superior to even the mightiest of the Endless, Death and Destiny.

Originally posted by MrMind
these 2 posts need to be appreciated. thanks for this well written analysis with evidence backing it up. It was a long-winded way of saying you guys arbitrarily pick and choose which pieces of comic book lore you want when it comes to comparing characters.

It's one thing if you're criticizing someone's use of tertiary material that didn't even feature Beyonder as if it reverse-inflated what Beyonder did during Secret Wars II.

No. What you're doing is acting like my criticism of your use of tertiary material that didn't even feature Lucifer should be handwaved despite the fact that I keep trying to pull you back to Lucifer's appearances within his own comic book volumes that primarily feature him and Michael and Yahweh.

We both know you realize how stupidly obtuse you're being about this. We also both know you shouldn't expect me not to abjectly ridicule your utter resignation over it. To the point where you can do nothing but half-heartedly cheer on the peanut gallery's contribution to this thread. A contribution which is equally worthless.

When you guys want to actually discuss the Vertigo characters of Lucifer/Michael/Beyonder. Let me know.

Originally posted by MrMind
these 2 posts need to be appreciated. thanks for this well written analysis with evidence backing it up.

That first post just sounds like ABC scaling logic

^ I might even respect ABC logic if they decided to accept each character's history. At least you could have some sort of conversation about that.

At this point though, this is their argument:

Fanboy interpretation of Lucifer vol.1 + one panel of Lucifer vol.2 - the entireties of Lucifer vols. 2 & 3 x Grant Morrison's Final Crisis cosmology = Michael infinitely beyond Beyonder???????

https://media.tenor.com/0bIiqTAsue8AAAAd/phase1-collect-underpants.gif

I mean... MrMind is using a Monitor's purple prose statement that the DC universes were "germ worlds" to characterize the scope of the Monitor Sphere when compared to the DC multiverse.

On the other hand, Beyonder characterized the Marvel Multiverse as a "drop of water" compared to the "ocean" that was the Beyond Realm.

Somehow, based on that purple prose... the DC Multiverse is infinitely beyond the Marvel Multiverse. Arbitrary, but whatever.

Even accepting that arbitrary conclusion, the gap in MrMind's logic is that Michael never represented the entirety of the Monitor Sphere. Not within the pages of Lucifer vols.1-3 or Final Crisis. Beyonder did, however, explicitly represent the entirety of the Beyond Realm in Secret Wars II.

So ignore MrMind's absurd notion that the DC multiverse infinitely outscales the Marvel Multiverse for a minute... even by his own leaps of logic, how did MrMind even equate Michael to the Monitor Sphere to then conclude that Michael infinitely outscales Beyonder?

Did Juntai's tl;dr posts address that either? No. All I have is their continued insistence they're correct. Now whether they'll ever admit they're absent-mindedly ignoring two complete volumes of Lucifer, what exactly am I supposed to be arguing with?

But then MrMind is also a (potential) Communist CCP spy who (potentially) definitely likes poop during sex, so...... trying to fathom such a mind is impossible.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But then MrMind is also a (potential) Communist CCP spy who (potentially) definitely likes poop during sex, so...... trying to fathom such a mind is impossible. https://y.yarn.co/3f70dc80-affc-4977-9a42-af9103227e41_text.gif

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But then MrMind is also a (potential) Communist CCP spy who (potentially) definitely likes poop during sex, so...... trying to fathom such a mind is impossible.



I have all the access to hillary's email, hunter biden's laptop and trump classified documents

daddy Xi is gonna be pleased

Originally posted by zopzop
That scan confirms what happened in SWII and the handbook entry. The cosmic entities were begging Beyonder not to kill Death. Death's death is even mentioned in her damn handbook entry too. All this post retcon.

That scan confirmed the SWII and Handbook entries. It also confirmed that the Beyonders are abstract killers. They were capable of destroying their Celestial creators (who just happened to create the multiverse).
No, it doesn't lol. Death was never killed by Beyonder post FF 319. The cosmic forces of the multiverse only let him believe it happened.

No matter of handbooks are gonna change it.

Originally posted by MrMind


I have all the access to hillary's email, hunter biden's laptop and trump classified documents

daddy Xi is gonna be pleased

And all because of KMC

Mind, tell us when Daddy Xi is planning to officially confront & defeat Abhi the Legend.

Will Qwerty betray his Superfan brother? Find out in the next episode of KMCZ...

Originally posted by Juntai
by all means, actually try adding something to the discussion Well, I was just trying to add two more volumes of appearances by the Vertigo Lucifer/Yahweh/Michael to the discussion.

Apparently, I'm the one who is arguing in bad faith? crackers

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Mind, tell us when Daddy Xi is planning to officially confront & defeat Abhi the Legend.

Will Qwerty betray his Superfan brother? Find out in the next episode of KMCZ...


apparently all the classic documents are just carver's juicy lips selfies and videos of
insane titan playing with his gyno

i got trolled

xi is pissed, i'm currently in his dungeon.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it doesn't lol. Death was never killed by Beyonder post FF 319. The cosmic forces of the multiverse only let him believe it happened.

No matter of handbooks are gonna change it.
https://i.postimg.cc/Hk2tPYBf/616.jpg
Yes he did and its been confirmed multiple times in multiple entries and even on panel like I just showed you (both of which were published after FF 319). That's from the LT's entry. It's in Death's entry and in Beyonder's entry too.

Originally posted by zopzop
Let's recap. You are seriously comparing Beyonder at half power, erasing an abstract concept from Marvel's multiverse and even the combined power of Marvel's abstracts that included the LT couldn't stop him from doing it or bring Death back to a noob with a spellbook imprisoning Dream of the Endless and Dream was helpless to stop it or escape?

Nice try.

You brought Dream into it not me, mainly to lowball one of the Endless and it didn't' work, and no Dream was not helpless, he escaped on his own, with nobody helping him but himself, the magicians gained nothing from imprisoning him. Try again

Originally posted by zopzop
https://i.postimg.cc/Hk2tPYBf/616.jpg
Yes he did and its been confirmed multiple times in multiple entries and even on panel like I just showed you (both of which were published after FF 319). That's from the LT's entry. It's in Death's entry and in Beyonder's entry too.
Handbooks can't supersede actual comics.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Handbooks can't supersede actual comics.
It backed up what was shown on panel and is mentioned in the handbook entries of everyone involved : Death, Beyonder, the LT, Eternity, etc... It was also shown on panel post FF 319.

Originally posted by kevdude
You brought Dream into it not me, mainly to lowball one of the Endless and it didn't' work, and no Dream was not helpless, he escaped on his own, with nobody helping him but himself, the magicians gained nothing from imprisoning him. Try again
He escaped by tricking them, it's not like he broke out on his own power. They broke the spell's circle and opened the cage holding him :
https://i.postimg.cc/7bHHkbB2/RCO027.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/NLdgfYVP/RCO029.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/7fbq5drP/RCO030.jpg

^ zopzop, despite our differences, if you really want to argue this matchup, all you need to do is read Lucifer vols.2-3. It's not even a discussion after vol.2, let alone vol.3.

Originally posted by ODG
^ zopzop, despite our differences, if you really want to argue this matchup, all you need to do is read Lucifer vols.2-3. It's not even a discussion after vol.2, let alone vol.3.
Thanks for the heads up but I can't stomach too much Vertigo so I'll have to read it in small doses

I'm briefly reading this thread at this point since there's no worthy discussion to be had. and it seems zop is the only one who actually posted something from marvel side.

keep up the trolling odg

Originally posted by NemeBro
What does someone bamboozling Dream have to do with Michael?

Genuinely asking, I am only broadly familiar with the character but my understanding is that Lucifer (and by extension Michael) are far superior to even the mightiest of the Endless, Death and Destiny.

zop is a moron when it comes to dc/vertigo.

within the dreaming the lucien library where dream is nigh-omnipotent, should story occur outside dreaming it would burn down creation

https://i.ibb.co/ctcFtFd/8136392-20210905-201134.jpg https://i.ibb.co/qYDrJZ3/8136393-20210905-201147.jpg

we have morpheus put 1000 beings to sleep then remade entire creation, to how it should be since beginning of time

https://i.ibb.co/X3rw16x/8136156-20210905-171144.jpg https://i.ibb.co/vxdZB0N/8136157-20210905-171457.jpg https://i.ibb.co/Gdpmt27/8136143-019.jpg

again morpheus used to reshap creation in dream of a thousand cats

https://i.ibb.co/XZQSJYm/8136222-20210905-173912.jpg https://i.ibb.co/gD2M5b3/8136154-20210905-171027.jpg

not only morpheus, daniel created a seperate multiverse in the void by using a cosmic egg

https://i.ibb.co/NWX3YdY/8136387-20210905-200849.jpg


michael and lucifer are beyond the endless

death of the endless was trans-multiversal, this was shown in lucifer where death went to lucifer's multiverse, then brought elaine back from lucifer's multiverse to presence's

and death basically admitted lucifer can kill her

even destiny, would be claimed by death at the end of time.

Originally posted by MrMind
I'm briefly reading this thread at this point since there's no worthy discussion to be had. and it seems zop is the only one who actually posted something from marvel side.

keep up the trolling odg



zop is a moron when it comes to dc/vertigo.

within the dreaming the lucien library where dream is nigh-omnipotent, should story occur outside dreaming it would burn down creation

we have morpheus put 1000 beings to sleep then remade entire creation, to how it should be since beginning of time


again morpheus used to reshap creation in dream of a thousand cats

not only morpheus, daniel created a seperate multiverse in the void by using a cosmic egg


michael and lucifer are beyond the endless
Originally posted by MrMind
death of the endless was trans-multiversal, this was shown in lucifer where death went to lucifer's multiverse, then brought elaine back from lucifer's multiverse to presence's

and death basically admitted lucifer can kill her

even destiny, would be claimed by death at the end of time.
Here is Lucifeer's creation, using Michael's power being called a universe by Ellaine/God :
https://i.postimg.cc/vxfHTg6F/image.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/z3gf0M2t/image.jpg

Yahweh's creation being called a universe by Lucifer :
https://i.postimg.cc/4mRxM5rJ/image.jpg

All this from the 2016 series of Lucifer. The last scan was from the final issue of the series.

And did someone say trans multiversal? Here it is on panel post retcon:
https://i.postimg.cc/PvXySZzT/image.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
It backed up what was shown on panel and is mentioned in the handbook entries of everyone involved : Death, Beyonder, the LT, Eternity, etc... It was also shown on panel post FF 319.
Again, all of it was an illusion and as per recent cosmology, every universe has its own death and it can be killed by invoking elder gods as shown in cancerverse . Heck, even a normal human knocked out death recently.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Alicia Masters beats up Death.

https://i.postimg.cc/CBV0tB5X/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/QK8382pq/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/MXqxmQhj/image.jpg

😆😆😆😆

So....

Originally posted by zopzop
Here is Lucifeer's creation, using Michael's power being called a universe by Ellaine/God :
https://i.postimg.cc/vxfHTg6F/image.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/z3gf0M2t/image.jpg

Yahweh's creation being called a universe by Lucifer :
https://i.postimg.cc/4mRxM5rJ/image.jpg

All this from the 2016 series of Lucifer. The last scan was from the final issue of the series.

And did someone say trans multiversal? Here it is on panel post retcon:
https://i.postimg.cc/PvXySZzT/image.jpg
Trans multiversal effects of fights don't mean they're trans multiversal destroyers. Basically they threw a stone in a pond and ripples went out to affect randomly.

Heck, a planetary bomb once threatened to destroy marvel omniverse because of cascading effects.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Marvel omniverse is so fragile that a planetary bomb threatened to destroy it. From Chaos Engine trilogy.

https://s6d5.turboimg.net/sp/3f2c78681af05721b1c2f894926130d5/Mastertheidiot5.jpg

Omniversal planet, huh?

Abhilegend likes men.

69% canon.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trans multiversal effects of fights don't mean they're trans multiversal destroyers. Basically they threw a stone in a pond and ripples went out to affect randomly.
Ripple?
https://i.postimg.cc/RJQyx5gc/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/xcnBy8dg/image.jpg


Yeah, Omniversal.

Originally posted by zopzop
Here is Lucifeer's creation, using Michael's power being called a universe by Ellaine/God :
https://i.postimg.cc/vxfHTg6F/image.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/z3gf0M2t/image.jpg

Yahweh's creation being called a universe by Lucifer :
https://i.postimg.cc/4mRxM5rJ/image.jpg

All this from the 2016 series of Lucifer. The last scan was from the final issue of the series.
Carey wrote multiverse and universe both during his series, and to him, he meant both. A totality. An everything. A universe replicated infinitely.

https://twitter.com/michaelcarey191/status/641365462530420737

https://twitter.com/michaelcarey191/status/674309993882087425

Originally posted by Juntai
Carey wrote multiverse and universe both during his series, and to him, he meant both. A totality. An everything. A universe replicated infinitely.

https://twitter.com/michaelcarey191/status/641365462530420737

https://twitter.com/michaelcarey191/status/674309993882087425
He obviously doesn't know what the words mean if he doesn't see the difference bewteen the terms :
UNI-verse. Uni means ONE
MULTI-verse. Multi means MORE than ONE.

He's either a hack or illiterate.

Yeah, he's definitely both of those.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yeah, he's definitely both of those.
Universe
all of space and everything in it including stars, planets, galaxies, etc.

Multiverse
cosmology
: a theoretical reality that includes a possibly infinite number of parallel universes

Like I said, hack or illiterate.

Originally posted by zopzop

Ripple?
https://i.postimg.cc/RJQyx5gc/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/xcnBy8dg/image.jpg

Yes, TVA registers even minor temporal deviations. Virtually nothing was destroyed in 616 universe where they fought lol.

lol, lmao even

Originally posted by zopzop
Universe
all of space and everything in it including stars, planets, galaxies, etc.

Multiverse
cosmology
: a theoretical reality that includes a possibly infinite number of parallel universes

Like I said, hack or illiterate. it is odd because carey also introduced the mansions of silence, which contained endless stacked layers of forgotten realities (which lucifer destroyed just by existing inside that place mind you), but still typically used "universe" to refer to all of creation, even though he intended it to be much more than just one universe.

not the first time writers have done things like that though. ewing used multiverse and omniverse interchangeably too.

Originally posted by zopzop
Thanks for the heads up but I can't stomach too much Vertigo Why not?

Originally posted by zopzop
Universe
all of space and everything in it including stars, planets, galaxies, etc.

Multiverse
cosmology
: a theoretical reality that includes a possibly infinite number of parallel universes

Like I said, hack or illiterate. That's "the universe", but the other definitions of "universe" are much broader and less literal

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/universe

"a systematic whole held to arise by and persist through the direct intervention of divine power"

"a set that contains all elements relevant to a particular discussion or problem"

Pretty sure Carey used "universe" to refer to all of creation, however parsed.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
it is odd because carey also introduced the mansions of silence, which contained endless stacked layers of forgotten realities (which lucifer destroyed just by existing inside that place mind you), but still typically used "universe" to refer to all of creation, even though he intended it to be much more than just one universe.

not the first time writers have done things like that though. ewing used multiverse and omniverse interchangeably too. Originally posted by Smurph
That's "the universe", but the other definitions of "universe" are much broader and less literal

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/universe

"a systematic whole held to arise by and persist through the direct intervention of divine power"

"a set that contains all elements relevant to a particular discussion or problem"

Pretty sure Carey used "universe" to refer to all of creation, however parsed.
Here is what you are describing in Marvel :
https://i.postimg.cc/mP1vxSw2/BWHYoHy.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/67sDBGjV/RT5WDLS.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/VdVxHhXV/kyvNbTe.jpg

This is what Lucifer/Michael's 'multiverse' was. A universe with upper and lower dimensions :
https://i.postimg.cc/PCMm5gK6/image.jpg

lol when lucifer was at the edge the void, outside of space time, he see dc multiverse as realities layered endlessly, infinite repetition. just to twist your eye and see the entire dc continuum from that perception, takes will beyond imagination.

https://i.ibb.co/K5RDF3Y/s-Y6rw5-SKZetap9-LWg-PUA90-k-Zki-Ek-9-PWfev-Cip-Y8-WYrm-SYCm-TKT-Pzzhhjw-L63dhsc61-Cpzy-YCO-s1600.jpg

and when lucifer was in the overvoid he see creations rise and fall

https://i.ibb.co/714Hr2L/6ksb-JU2j-Wa-Zw2syy-Wm-Gal-Q-ODv-SWf-Qf-DA1a-sg6-QA4-INn3-SVo-Bp-JMMKKI2fk5-Ym6-RXi-At21-MDp-Zp-s160.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
Here is what you are describing in Marvel :
https://i.postimg.cc/mP1vxSw2/BWHYoHy.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/67sDBGjV/RT5WDLS.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/VdVxHhXV/kyvNbTe.jpg

This is what Lucifer/Michael's 'multiverse' was. A universe with upper and lower dimensions :
https://i.postimg.cc/PCMm5gK6/image.jpg I'm not sure what you think this demonstrates but I was just saying that Merriam Webster doesn't get you very far. There are varied enough understandings of universe to make sense of Carey's less literal use of the word.

Originally posted by MrMind
I'm briefly reading this thread at this point since there's no worthy discussion to be had. and it seems zop is the only one who actually posted something from marvel side.

keep up the trolling odg Annnnndddd... nothing of what you posted involves Lucifer vols.2-3.

Actually... nothing of what you posted even involves Lucifer vol.1.

I don't appreciate your characterization that I'm trolling. But when you have to flee towards tertiary material to avoid the actual main series these characters feature in? That's just b1tch-whining.

Glad you dropped the retarded notion that the DC Multiverse/Michael infinitely outscale the Marvel Multiverse/Beyonder. Baby-steps for you but that deserves a pat on the head.

like i said, this is not worth my time until someone worth debating come along and start showing actual substance.

marvel fans, for this discourse to continue first prove beyond realm is bigger than nil

overvoid>dc omniverse> infinite multiverses made in sixth dimension>fifth dimension>dark multiverse>nil=beyond realm>third dimensional marvel multiverse=third dimensional dc multiverse

nothing in marvel is bigger than beyond realm

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm not sure what you think this demonstrates but I was just saying that Merriam Webster doesn't get you very far. There are varied enough understandings of universe to make sense of Carey's less literal use of the word.
You're not sure? Let me try explaining what I meant. Look at Carey's understanding of multiverse and universe. Now look at the dictionary definitions and scans I posted.

Does Carey believe :
A) a 'multiverse' is a universe and all it's adjacent dimensions, god realms, heavens, hells, and sub dimensions?

OR

B) A series of infinite universes. Like universe 616, universe14789, universe 256, universe 98989888888888888888888888, etc...?

Because they are two VERY different things. An honest reading of Carey's tweet cleaerly points to scenario A.

your autistic interpretation not withstanding

this is his actual tweet. now let's let everyone read it and think, does he actually mean just a single universe with adjacent dimensions in this instance?

https://i.ibb.co/Wnp4T2z/7091833-4215473862-55940.png
https://i.ibb.co/G3hxZNf/7091831-8944229087-55940.jpg

Originally posted by MrMind
your autistic interpretation not withstanding

this is his actual tweet. now let's let everyone read it and think, does he actually mean just a single universe with adjacent dimensions in this instance?

https://i.ibb.co/Wnp4T2z/7091833-4215473862-55940.png
https://i.ibb.co/G3hxZNf/7091831-8944229087-55940.jpg
Speaking of autism. That tweet added nothing to what we already saw from him.

Go back and re-read what I typed. We saw Lucifer's entire creation when Elaine was flying over it. There were no multiple universes. Just a universe with its accompanying astral realms, I even posted the damn scan.

Originally posted by zopzop
You're not sure? Let me try explaining what I meant. Look at Carey's understanding of multiverse and universe. Now look at the dictionary definitions and scans I posted.

Does Carey believe :
A) a 'multiverse' is a universe and all it's adjacent dimensions, god realms, heavens, hells, and sub dimensions?

OR

B) A series of infinite universes. Like universe 616, universe14789, universe 256, universe 98989888888888888888888888, etc...?

Because they are two VERY different things. An honest reading of Carey's tweet cleaerly points to scenario A. No, his tweets clearly spell out that universe = Creation = everything, all there is, the entirety of reality with all its trappings. So if you want to parse the "trappings" in terms of layers and series of infinite universes within that Creation, it makes no difference to Carey.

https://x.com/michaelcarey191/status/673788879464435712?s=46&t=oDK8I_Oetm0ZuZmqDJe_UA

"Both. Either. Both words are meant to describe "all there is" - but they see the structure of reality in somewhat different terms."

I'm not saying that we're stuck with Carey's interpretation or that ODG doesn't have a point about Lucifer v2 etc, but if we're arguing about dictionary definitions and Carey's words, I think his meaning is plain.

Originally posted by zopzop
You're not sure? Let me try explaining what I meant. Look at Carey's understanding of multiverse and universe. Now look at the dictionary definitions and scans I posted.

Does Carey believe :
A) a 'multiverse' is a universe and all it's adjacent dimensions, god realms, heavens, hells, and sub dimensions?

OR

B) A series of infinite universes. Like universe 616, universe14789, universe 256, universe 98989888888888888888888888, etc...?

Because they are two VERY different things. An honest reading of Carey's tweet cleaerly points to scenario A.

No horse in this debate, but just commenting on the Smurph's post about definition of universe here
I think the point here is in the tweets, Carey thinks Universe and Multiverse both mean the same thing(I.E everything)



Which is a (relatively) less used definition for Universe(at least, certainly not on battleboards)

Or a similar example is the fellow on quora asked similar question(I.E, didn't realize the now popluarized difference between Universe and Multiverse, or multiverses)
https://www.quora.com/If-the-universe-contains-everything-that-exists-why-do-we-talk-about-multiverses-Arent-they-supposed-to-be-a-part-of-everything-that-exists-already-in-the-universe

I.E, Universe in some instances(probably for the old people) carries the same idea as Multiverse/Omniverse and whatever, simply carries the meaning of a thing that contains everything

Edit:
Smurph ninja'ed me

Originally posted by Smurph
No, his tweets clearly spell out that universe = Creation = everything, all there is, the entirety of reality with all its trappings. So if you want to parse the "trappings" in terms of layers and series of infinite universes within that Creation, it makes no difference to Carey.

https://x.com/michaelcarey191/status/673788879464435712?s=46&t=oDK8I_Oetm0ZuZmqDJe_UA

"Both. Either. Both words are meant to describe "all there is" - but they see the structure of reality in somewhat different terms."

I'm not saying that we're stuck with Carey's interpretation or that ODG doesn't have a point about Lucifer v2 etc, but if we're arguing about dictionary definitions and Carey's words, I think his meaning is plain.
He literally says "to me that implies many realms or dimensions." That's literally scenario A that I listed.

Show me where we saw alternate reality versions of various Vertigo characters in Lucifer/Michael's creation. You can't because there weren't multiple UNIVERRSES there. There was just one universe with its astral realms (there weren't even immortals there).

Originally posted by zopzop
He literally says "to me that implies many realms or dimensions." That's literally scenario A that I listed.

Show me where we saw alternate reality versions of various Vertigo characters in Lucifer/Michael's creation. You can't because there weren't multiple UNIVERRSES there. There was just one universe with its astral realms (there weren't even immortals there). You're cherry picking part of his tweet and ignoring the central point that he repeats over and over.

Lucifer and Michael made a creation. Something under which everything else is contained. A universe? Yes. A multiverse? Yes. A totality.

Just read Qwerty's post a few more times until you get it.

Originally posted by zopzop
Speaking of autism. That tweet added nothing to what we already saw from him.

Go back and re-read what I typed. We saw Lucifer's entire creation when Elaine was flying over it. There were no multiple universes. Just a universe with its accompanying astral realms, I even posted the damn scan.

how do you know there are no other universes? just because they use the term universe? can you actually tell just by looking at the picture? or are you still nitpicking

was lucifer lying here when he said he created a multiverse?

https://i.ibb.co/0Brkbv0/5592959-5498566836-11749.jpg

to put it in perspective

a tiny part of dream's power in dream stone can create 6 billion realities each had universes in them

https://i.ibb.co/HKcgBGN/JmdNIV8.jpg

and dream is shit scared of lucy

Originally posted by MrMind
how do you know there are no other universes? just because they use the term universe? can you actually tell just by looking at the picture? or are you still nitpicking

was lucifer lying here when he said he created a multiverse?

https://i.ibb.co/0Brkbv0/5592959-5498566836-11749.jpg
This should be easy then. Show me the other universes. Not astral realms, god realms, or hells. Show me Luciferverse 874, or Vertigoverse 1478. You can't.

Also a writer's tweet 15 years after the story was published doesn't mean jack if its not shown on panel.

wow so we have to show you something you make up in your own head by your own set of rules

but writer's intention don't mean shit and need to be ignored

do you see how ridiculous you sound?

Originally posted by MrMind
wow so we have to show you something you make up in your own head by your own set of rules

but writer's intention don't mean shit and need to be ignored

do you see how ridiculous you sound?
Way to ignore what I actually said. Show on panel proof of what you are saying. This should be easy right? Also look up forum rules regarding writer's comments contradicting or not being shown on panel.

A tweet 15 YEARS after the fact with no on panel support doesn't mean jack.

Originally posted by zopzop
Way to ignore what I actually said. Show on panel proof of what you are saying. This should be easy right? Also look up forum rules regarding writer's comments contradicting or not being shown on panel.

A tweet 15 YEARS after the fact with no on panel support doesn't mean jack.

i showed you, on panel, by lucifer's own mouth stating

lucifer: "hey zop, what i created is not a realm, it is a totality, a multiverse."

https://i.imgur.com/sL5lZwa.jpg

Ok but you're no longer claiming that the tweets support your position?

Seems like we made progress

Originally posted by MrMind
i showed you, on panel, by lucifer's own mouth stating

lucifer: "hey zop, what i created is not a realm, it is a totality, a multiverse."

https://i.imgur.com/sL5lZwa.jpg
And I showed you scans where it was referred to as a universe both during Carey's run and by later writers. Now you have to show me ON PANEL proof that it's a multiverse. I'll wait. Because I showed you on panel proof that it was nothing more than a single universe with side dimensions.Originally posted by Smurph
Ok but you're no longer claiming that the tweets support your position?

Seems like we made progress
Look at the scan I posted from Lucifer series 1 regarding Elaine and Lucifer/Michael's creation, the dictionary definition, and what Carey tweeted (even though it's not admissable by forum rules).

Originally posted by zopzop

Look at the scan I posted from Lucifer series 1 regarding Elaine and Lucifer/Michael's creation, the dictionary definition, and what Carey tweeted (even though it's not admissable by forum rules). I looked at it. I also showed you two other definitions from the same dictionary, and took you through what Carey said.

Originally posted by Smurph
I looked at it. I also showed you two other definitions from the same dictionary, and took you through what Carey said.
So then you can show me on panel scans of what you claim right? I'll wait. Because I already posted on panel scans of Luciferverse being referred to as a universe during Carey's run and years after Carey's run. I showed you on panel proof of it being nothing more than a single universe with astral/pocket realms DURING Carey's run.

Team Vertigo hasn't shown me anything yet except a writer's tweet 15 years after the story was written with nothing to back it up on panel.

Originally posted by Smurph
Ok but you're no longer claiming that the tweets support your position?

Seems like we made progress

@Smurph
Post scans backing up your claim, until then I'm done with you.

Universe can mean everything, though. Marvel U, DCU....

Originally posted by zopzop
He escaped by tricking them, it's not like he broke out on his own power. They broke the spell's circle and opened the cage holding him :
https://i.postimg.cc/7bHHkbB2/RCO027.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/NLdgfYVP/RCO029.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/7fbq5drP/RCO030.jpg

Dream waited them out till one of them fell asleep, tricked them yes but he still got out on his own, through his wit.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Universe can mean everything, though. Marvel U, DCU....
But if it's never shown to be anything other than a single universe with all it's spiritual realms, astral realms, pocket dimensions, etc.. it's not a multiverse no?

A multiverse being defined as a series of infinite UNIVERSES. Isn't that what the What Ifs and Elseworlds are?

Originally posted by zopzop
But if it's never shown to be anything other than a single universe with all it's spiritual realms, astral realms, pocket dimensions, etc.. it's not a multiverse no?

A multiverse being defined as a series of infinite UNIVERSES. Isn't that what the What Ifs and Elseworlds are?

But surely we don't need to be shown every minutiae?

I assume that Lois Lane is human, and that she poops. Comics have never depicted this (despite MrMind's incessant tweets and letters)....but they don't have to.

https://i.ibb.co/q5Hscxz/lois-lane-commission-by-pollo1567-dgh4gvv.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/qxhbBMb/lois-lane-commission-by-pollo1567-dgdn0j0.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/CJ66wsS/lois-lane-commission-by-llyxao-dfgg5ip-fullview.jpg

,...........

Originally posted by zopzop


does the scan i posted where lucifer said so himself it was a multiverse, not count?

i just showed you on panel proof. am i taking crazy pill here?

zop: i want on panel proof that it's a multiverse

mrmind shows on panel comic of said proof

zop: but i want on panel proof. show me that!

mrmind: but i just did!

wtf....im gonna go get a drink so i dont have a stroke

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But surely we don't need to be shown every minutiae?

I assume that Lois Lane is human, and that she poops. Comics have never depicted this (despite MrMind's incessant tweets and letters)....but they don't have to.

until dc comics show lois lane's butthole opens up with turd coming out, as far as im concerned lois lane does not poop. neither do any of the female population

I could post those, but I'm choosing not to

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But surely we don't need to be shown every minutiae?

I assume that Lois Lane is human, and that she poops. Comics have never depicted this (despite MrMind's incessant tweets and letters)....but they don't have to. Originally posted by MrMind
does the scan i posted where lucifer said so himself it was a multiverse, not count?

i just showed you on panel proof. am i taking crazy pill here?

zop: i want on panel proof that it's a multiverse

mrmind shows on panel comic of said proof

zop: but i want on panel proof. show me that!

mrmind: but i just did!

wtf....im gonna go get a drink so i dont have a stroke
But when it's shown on panel to be a universe (sans alternate realities) it reinforces the single universe definition no? We saw Elaine flying over Lucifer/Michael's entire universe and she even described what she flew through.

Now if there's on panel proof contradicting this, I'd love to see it.

Could you wear a schoolgirl outfit and take some selfies?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Could you wear a schoolgirl outfit and take some selfies?
https://i.postimg.cc/MXsBmQ1w/nintchdbpict000248065456.jpg