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The objective is for you to create an amalgam who can beat my own "Dr. Flobo", using any three(3) heralds from the Tiers list...
Originally posted by Galan007
High
Adam Warlock, Annihilus (/w/ CCR), Asmodel, Atrocitus, Brimstone, Cyborg Superman, Despero, Doomsday (DOS), Doomsday (Gog Wars), The Eradicator (Fortress Mode), Firestorm, Flash (Barry Allen, Wally West, Bart Allen), Genis-Vell, Godspeed, Grail, Grand Regent Thragg, Green Lanterns (Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner), Helspont, Imperiex Probes, John Constantine, Majestic, Maxima, Obsidian, Orion, Plutonian, Quasar, Qztr, Sentry (no Void), Silver Surfer, Sinestro, Spartan 3.0, Starbrand, Starro the Conqueror, Talisman, Thor, The Weird, Ultraman, Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Zod, Zoom (Hunter Solomon)

Middle
Abra Kadabra, Alexander Nero, Apocalypse, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Battle Beast, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Bizarro Superman, Black Adam, Black Bolt, Blue Marvel, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cassandra Nova, Cheetah, Citizen Steel, Conquest, Count Nefaria, Damage, Damien Hellstrom, Dr. Doom, Eradicator (non-Fortress Mode), Etrigan, Evinlea, The Fallen One, The General (Shaggy Man), Gladiator, Graviton, Grayven, Green Lanterns (Guy Gardner, Icon (Milestone), Jessica Cruz, John Stewart, Katma, Kilowog, Simon Baz, Sodam Yat), Hulk, Hyperion, Invincible, Juggernaut (Classic), Kang, Kid Omega, Kurse, Lobo, Loki, Maestro, Magneto (616), Magus (Post-IG), Manchester Black, Mantis (New God), Martian Manhunter, Mon-El, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Spectrum), Moonstone (w/ both stones), Morg, Nate Grey, O.M.A.C., Omni-Man, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, Sersi, Shadowman, Shaman, Skreet, Star Sapphire (Carol Ferris), Stardust, Supergirl, Supreme (original), Ultron, Void (Wildstorm, no Creation Engine power), White Martians, Wildfire, Witchfire (Demon Form)

Low
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Angela, Animal Man, Apollo, Aquaman, Atlas (DC), The Atom, Big Barda, Blanque, Breach, Captain Comet, Cir-El, Coldcast, Cyborg, Darkness, Deadman, Death's Head 3.0, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Light II (Kimiyo Hoshi), Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Ebony Maw, Enchantress (DC), Enchantress (Marvel), Engineer, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firelord, Flash (Jay Garrick), Frankenstein (DC), Gammid, Gilgamesh, Godzilla, Gorilla Grodd, Granny Goodness, Green Lantern (Soranik Natu), He-Man, Hector Hammond, Hercules (Immortal), Iceman, Ikaris, Isis, Jade, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kalibak, Killer Frost, King Hyperion, Krypto, Lightray, Living Monolith, Loki (Ultimate), Lunatik, Madison Jeffries (BOX IV), Magik, Magneto (U), Major Force, Makkari, Man-Beast, Marrina (Leviathan), Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Metamorpho, Mirror Master, Morlun, Mr. M, Mr. Sinister, Nico Minoru, Nimrod, Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Richard Rider (current), Parasite, Plastic Man, Power Girl, Prime, Professor X, Proxima Midnight, Raven, Ravenous, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saint Walker, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, She-Hulk, Skaar, Skeletor, Snowbird, Solar (Gold Key), Solomon Grundy, Starhawk, Starman, Super Skrull, Stryfe, Super-Man (Kenan Kong), Superboy, Supergiant, Tempest, Terrax, Thor (Ultimate), Ultra Boy, Ultra-Humanite, Union, Vision, Vulcan, Weapon H, Wendigo, Wiccan, Winter, Witchfire (Normal), Zauriel
*Dr. Flobo = Dr. Doom + Flash (Wally) + Lobo {Your amalgam cannot consist of any of these characters.}
*No PIS/CIS or any character restrictions like that -- you can go "full-battleboard" with strategies and whatnot.

He ends up with Superman-tier physical stats, is truly immortal and can instantly heal from any injury, has a magical skillset rivaling Doctor Strange, has the mental resilience of a Czarnian with the universal intellect of Reed Richards, can process infinite scenarios instantaneously, can move on an attosecond-by-attosecond basis, has nearly unlimited mystical and technological resources, etc. etc... And as icing on the cake, Dr. Flobo can also create an equally powerful clone for every drop of blood he or the clone(s) spills, which equates to a potentially infinite clone army that he can steal speed from OR lend speed to(*credit to DS for that last tactic*).

*Scenario #1: Dr. Flobo gets 1 hour of prep before the battle. Your amalgam gets no prep.
*Scenario #2: Both amalgams get 1 hour of prep before the battle.

That being said, are there any other amalgam options who might at least be able to rival Flobo, PhD?


{Note}
Anyone can debate for Dr. Flobo as well. IOW, if there is a tactic available to him that I'm not seeing or hasn't been mentioned, feel free to point it out!


https://i.ibb.co/RGv75bVJ/Doctor-Flobo-AI2.png

It would be interesting to see who picks a telepath and tries to argue that Dr Flobo gets outsped......

Raven might need to be reevaluated.

I'm gonna need a while to think about this, because Dr Flobo is off the charts.

The only real vulnerability (if you can even call it that) I can think of would be to TP attacks, but then you still have to make a telepath themed fusion who can mindrape Dr Flobo before he blitzes them either physically or with enhanced speed magic, which is hard because Flash is pretty much the speed god. Plus Lobo is very resistant to TP and Doom has some kind of mystical resistance as well IIRC, so even if my fusion could actually outspeed Dr Flobo with their mental attacks, theres a good chance he could tank them anyway.

Plus giving Dr Flobo 1 hour of prep time makes it even harder, because if he knows what fusion he's fighting he can just prep for those powers specifically before. Need to think about this.

okay i'll bite.

silver surfer+cassandra nova+zoom (hunter zolomon)

surfer gives me extreme physicals and versatility with the pc. cassandra gives me the greatest tp on the list. zoom makes me faster than wally. i don't need to be the most powerful amalgam, just powerful enough to beat dr flobo in a fight.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
okay i'll bite.

silver surfer+cassandra nova+zoom (hunter zolomon)

surfer gives me extreme physicals and versatility with the pc. cassandra gives me the greatest tp on the list. zoom makes me faster than wally. i don't need to be the most powerful amalgam, just powerful enough to beat dr flobo in a fight. Ah I missed Zoom in there. I think this fusion has a pretty good chance actually.

Also what is meant by "If needed" Dr. Flobo gets 1hr of prep time? Because Flash can squeeze centuries into an hour.

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.ibb.co/rf3vgZg5/Doctor-Flobo-AI.png

https://i.ibb.co/8Dy42hG1/9lcmtt.jpg

If you're already hard-pressed just to beat one Dr. Flobo, imagine when blood-cloning at superspeed enters the chat. vin

Originally posted by Infinaut616
Also what is meant by "If needed" Dr. Flobo gets 1hr of prep time? Because Flash can squeeze centuries into an hour. IOW, Dr. Flobo is given a moment to assess the amalgam he's facing. If Flobo then deems it necessary, he is allowed 1 hour of prep time -- this must be decided prior to the battle itself, obvs.

And per the forum rules: prep time is relative to the character, and no form of time manipulation can be used to prolong it(ie. 1 hour means 1 hour.) So if Dr. Flobo finishes his hour-worth of prep time in a nanosecond(relative to the outside), then so be it.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://i.ibb.co/8Dy42hG1/9lcmtt.jpg

Such is the power of.... DR. FLOBO!! evillaugh

Zoom

Magik

The Atom

Can we include characters who are less powerful than heralds and don't show up in the herald tiers?

Telepathy or some form of BFR is the only way to defeat Flobo. However, the catch is that he gets one hour of preparation. To put this into perspective, an attosecond compared to a second is like a second compared to 31.7 billion years. Therefore, one hour for Flobo equates to roughly 11 trillion years of preparation - more than 8,000 times the age of the universe.

Originally posted by Smurph
Can we include characters who are less powerful than heralds and don't show up in the herald tiers? If you have to, I suppose... But I was trying to stick mainly to the list, as to avoid confusion.

Originally posted by h1a8
However, the catch is that he gets one hour of preparation. To put this into perspective, an attosecond compared to a second is like a second compared to 31.7 billion years. Therefore, one hour for Flobo equates to roughly 11 trillion years of preparation - more than 8,000 times the age of the universe. |
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VOriginally posted by Galan007
And per the forum rules: prep time is relative to the character, and no form of time manipulation can be used to prolong it(ie. 1 hour means 1 hour.) So if Dr. Flobo finishes his hour-worth of prep time in a nanosecond(relative to the outside), then so be it.

Aquarian, Zoom, Silver Surfer.

Im faster than you, so I would blitz over while having my Aquarian shield active, that would also turn off all of your abilities. With Surfer powers, I would just turn you into atoms while having each atom wrapped in Aquarius energy (so that your cloning powers wont work) and disperse you across the universe.

Yes, Surfer has shown he can turn beings into atoms, and yes, Surfer is able to transfer powers over to others. Easy win..

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Zoom

Magik

The Atom Nice. What's your strat?

Originally posted by carver9
Aquarian, Zoom, Silver Surfer.

Im faster than you, so I would blitz over while having my Aquarian shield active, that would also turn off all of your abilities. With Surfer powers, I would just turn you into atoms while having each atom wrapped in Aquarius energy (so that your cloning powers wont work) and disperse you across the universe.

Yes, Surfer has shown he can turn beings into atoms, and yes, Surfer is able to transfer powers over to others. Easy win.. I like where you're going here.

So in this case I would activate my prep time. I would use it to first create a single clone from a drop of my blood. I would then give my clone(s) the directive to create as many more clones as possible during my prep phase, by having them each bleed-out. Conservatively, each clone should be able to produce a few-hundred-thousand more clones(and that's aside from any multiplication/illusion hexes I might conjure.) With each and every clone doing this continuously for an hour at superspeed, I could raise... Quite the Flobo army, to say the least.

While my clones were building a vast army of me's, I'd be calculating infinite scenarios in order to determine my best options. In this case I think sheer numbers + some passive BFR spells/tech + kinetic energy drain would do the trick.

Also, has Aquarian's null-field ever gone up against magic?

_______________________


{Note} (and I'll add this to the OP as well)
Anyone can debate for Dr. Flobo as well. IOW, if there is a tactic available to him that I'm not seeing or hasn't been mentioned, feel free to point it out!

Lmmfao... That's cheating.

Originally posted by Galan007
If you have to, I suppose... But I was trying to stick mainly to the list, as to avoid confusion.

Ok. I was thinking of the same amalgam as DarkSaint with one change:

Zoom
Magik
ForgetMeNot

I figure FMN should hinder prep time because Dr. Flobo can't remember who he's facing.

Then the strat is basically an impossible to track or remember ZoomikMeNot going for the blitz Limbo dump. The soul sword should deal with any magic defenses, and once everybody is in Limbo, it's game over.

Can I use characters that is not on this list but is within this tier?

Originally posted by Smurph
Ok. I was thinking of the same amalgam as DarkSaint with one change:

Zoom
Magik
ForgetMeNot

I figure FMN should hinder prep time because Dr. Flobo can't remember who he's facing.

Then the strat is basically an impossible to track or remember ZoomikMeNot going for the blitz Limbo dump. The soul sword should deal with any magic defenses, and once everybody is in Limbo, it's game over. Adding FMN is a great choice.

But if ZoomikMeNot is standing right in front of Dr. Flobo during the assessment phase, he'd then decide if prep time was in order. If Flobo decides to enter the prep phase, he would definitely forget about ZoomikMeNot's existence right away(literally out of sight, out of mind.) However, because he would still be in the prep phase, Dr. Flobo should still recognize that he must have previously decided to use prep for a reason, and would undoubtedly have *some* sort of default prep plans/contingencies in place(which would likely entail spamming clones at the bare minimum.)

...Unless Dr. Flobo's Doom-tech happened to auto-record the assessment process and can appropriately play it back for him(I know some tech 'remembers' FMN, and some doesn't.) Then Flobo obviously would remember who he's up against, and could prep accordingly. /shrug

Originally posted by carver9
Can I use characters that is not on this list but is within this tier? |
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V Originally posted by Galan007
If you have to, I suppose... But I was trying to stick mainly to the list, as to avoid confusion.

Zoom (he's a staple that will have to be in every fusion to have a chance)
Firestorm
Cassandra Nova

With Zoom I can think and react faster. With Firestorm I can become intangible, so Dr Flobo's numbers wouldn't matter because none of them can touch me. With Cassandra Nova I can mindrape FTW.

If that's your strat you might be better off using MMH.

Just as much intangible, but extra mental might.

I'm not sure if Doom has a way to pass his knowledge into each of the clones. If he does, then Cassandra Nova could still do plenty of damage, but there's a more than zero chance that one of those many many many many opponents pulls off an ovoid mind transfer. Especially given Cassandra's history with that sort of sucker punch when she's confident.

Originally posted by Infinaut616
Zoom (he's a staple that will have to be in every fusion to have a chance)
Firestorm
Cassandra Nova

With Zoom I can think and react faster. With Firestorm I can become intangible, so Dr Flobo's numbers wouldn't matter because none of them can touch me. With Cassandra Nova I can mindrape FTW. Nice.

Only thing I would nitpick is the intangibility angle. That has always been a very... Tricky and unstable ability for FS to use, hence why he's never used intangibility for more than a few moments at a time. So something like that might work at first, but it's not really a sustainable tactic at all(even IF Dr. Flobo couldn't come up with a direct counter for it.) Like Smurph said, MMH would be better for this strat.

As for the mind-phuckery: Lobo has crazy resistance to TP, and you'd potentially be facing millions/billions of Lobo-minds...That are also moving at Wally-speeds... And are also spamming Doom-magics/tech. That pesky prep time I've allotted to Dr. Flobo is meant to make this more of an uphill battle for you.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nice. What's your strat?


Having seen my amalgam, is Flobo going to use Prep against The Magic ZoomAto?

Also, most importantly:

https://i.postimg.cc/5tgvSSVx/Magic-Zoom-Ato.jpg

Thank you

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Having seen my amalgam, is Flobo going to use Prep against The Magic ZoomAto? Anyone with the balls to call their amalgam "The Magic ZoomAto" is worthy of prep, tbh.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, most importantly:

https://i.postimg.cc/5tgvSSVx/Magic-Zoom-Ato.jpg

Pure gold.

I'd assume going to Limbo isn't self-BFR....

But really, it's a combination of magic- immunity (as Atom demonstrated, magic doesn't work on him when he's the size of a theoretical particle), microscopic stepping stones insideFlobo's brain, and the Soulsword for a magical lobotomy (which leaves zero blood).

All directed from Limbo, where time moves differently and the rules of physics etc all obey ZoomAto's whims. She can even look back in time, to see what the prep entails, and attack at different points in the timeline, whilst being safe from time shenanigans herself as Zoom lives in his own timeline.

The issue people overlook is that Flobo can steal speed, effectively turning the amalgam into a statue. He can also become intangible.

What tier would we put Theo Storm, Loser?

Originally posted by h1a8
The issue people overlook is that Flobo can steal speed, effectively turning the amalgam into a statue. He can also become intangible.

People also overlook that Zoom is being used, someone who Wally explicitly couldn't steal speed from.

Here's my amalgam:
Zoom + Barry Allen + Cassandra Nova = Zovallen

Remember how Fox Quicksilver could move at normal speed while everything around him was frozen, yet still zip around at super speed within that slowed time? This amalgam operates on the same principle - superspeed inside an already slowed-down time perception.

Zoom will slow time to a level where he nearly matches Flobo, but within that dilation, Barry will still retain his super speed (since Zoom himself lacks true superspeed). This creates a layered speed advantage, making my amalgam orders of magnitude faster than Flobo.

From there, Cassandra Nova takes over.

Originally posted by Smurph
If that's your strat you might be better off using MMH.

Just as much intangible, but extra mental might.

I'm not sure if Doom has a way to pass his knowledge into each of the clones. If he does, then Cassandra Nova could still do plenty of damage, but there's a more than zero chance that one of those many many many many opponents pulls off an ovoid mind transfer. Especially given Cassandra's history with that sort of sucker punch when she's confident.

But I also forgot that intangibility was also past of Dr Flobo's powers because of Flash. So disregard anyway lol.

Originally posted by Galan007
The objective is for you to create an amalgam who can beat my own "Dr. Flobo", using any three(3) heralds from the Tiers list...

*No PIS/CIS or any character restrictions like that -- you can go "full-battleboard" with strategies and whatnot.
*If needed, Dr. Flobo gets 1hr of prep before fighting your amalgam.
*Dr. Flobo = Dr. Doom + Flash (Wally) + Lobo {Your amalgam cannot consist of any of these characters.}

He ends up with Superman-tier physical stats, is truly immortal and can instantly heal from any injury, has a magical skillset rivaling Doctor Strange, has the mental resilience of a Czarnian with the universal intellect of Reed Richards, can process infinite scenarios instantaneously, can move on an attosecond-by-attosecond basis, has nearly unlimited mystical and technological resources, etc. etc... And as icing on the cake, Dr. Flobo can also create an equally powerful clone for every drop of blood he or the clone(s) spills(which means a potentially infinite army of Flobos.)

That being said, are there any other amalgam options who might at least be able to rival Flobo, PhD? John Constantine + any DC Speedforce-user like Barry Allen. I'd argue you don't really need a 3rd character to be amalgamated unless you want to pile on.

You amalgamate Doctor Doom and Lobo and Wally West, then you amalgamate their souls. Their souls are individually and collectively subject to condemnation to Hell. Doctor Doom has made deals with demons and his soul is destined for Hell. Lobo is no innocent and ought to be destined to Hell also. And Wally West's actions during Heroes in Crisis are indefensible. Separately or collectively, they all can be condemned to Hell for their sins.

And even if you were to argue Wally West was somehow relieved/redeemed of his unforgivable actions during Heroes in Crisis, there are plenty of DC Vertigo storylines that routinely condemned otherwise "innocent souls" because they were collaterally caught up in accursed shenanigans. A theoretically pure Wally West soul should not immunize Dr. Flobo from exorcism to Hell.

Speedforce Constantine only needs to exorcise Dr. Flobo to Hell before Dr. Flobo kills him. And even if Dr. Flobo could eventually escape Hell -- as Doom has individually done so through plot contrivance -- I don't see Dr. Flobo doing so before their banishment to Hell is considered a BFR win via traditional KMC rules.

Otherwise, add on Bart Allen as the 3rd piece to dominate the superspeed issue. But frankly, Barry Allen should simply negate Wally West so adding another Speedforce user is overkill. I might argue that a more effective 3rd piece would be another character who could tip the scales of soul-based exorcism, e.g., Adam Warlock, Asmodel, either DC/Marvel Enchantresses, Loki, Nico Minoru, Raven, Wiccan, Zatanna, etc.

How would Ghost Rider Penance stare fair against Doom (Lobo and Flash would obviously feel the attack, Doom is the problem)?

Originally posted by carver9
How would Ghost Rider Penance stare fair against Doom (Lobo and Flash would obviously feel the attack, Doom is the problem)?

I don't even think it would phase Lobo, tbh. Doom miiight actually feel guilty for his mom, maybe. But Lobo?

https://i.postimg.cc/XqfFQxtj/Fun.png

He actually enjoys Hell.

Zoom - General Eiling - Prof X

Originally posted by ODG
John Constantine + any DC Speedforce-user like Barry Allen. I'd argue you don't really need a 3rd character to be amalgamated unless you want to pile on.

You amalgamate Doctor Doom and Lobo and Wally West, then you amalgamate their souls. Their souls are individually and collectively subject to condemnation to Hell. Doctor Doom has made deals with demons and his soul is destined for Hell. Lobo is no innocent and ought to be destined to Hell also. And Wally West's actions during Heroes in Crisis are indefensible. Separately or collectively, they all can be condemned to Hell for their sins.

And even if you were to argue Wally West was somehow relieved/redeemed of his unforgivable actions during Heroes in Crisis, there are plenty of DC Vertigo storylines that routinely condemned otherwise "innocent souls" because they were collaterally caught up in accursed shenanigans. A theoretically pure Wally West soul should not immunize Dr. Flobo from exorcism to Hell.

Speedforce Constantine only needs to exorcise Dr. Flobo to Hell before Dr. Flobo kills him. And even if Dr. Flobo could eventually escape Hell -- as Doom has individually done so through plot contrivance -- I don't see Dr. Flobo doing so before their banishment to Hell is considered a BFR win via traditional KMC rules.

Otherwise, add on Bart Allen as the 3rd piece to dominate the superspeed issue. But frankly, Barry Allen should simply negate Wally West so adding another Speedforce user is overkill. I might argue that a more effective 3rd piece would be another character who could tip the scales of soul-based exorcism, e.g., Adam Warlock, Asmodel, either DC/Marvel Enchantresses, Loki, Nico Minoru, Raven, Wiccan, Zatanna, etc. Lobo is banned from Heaven and Hell and is to be collected under no circumstances.

Originally posted by h1a8
Here's my amalgam:
Zoom + Barry Allen + Cassandra Nova = Zovallen

Remember how Fox Quicksilver could move at normal speed while everything around him was frozen, yet still zip around at super speed within that slowed time? This amalgam operates on the same principle - superspeed inside an already slowed-down time perception.

Zoom will slow time to a level where he nearly matches Flobo, but within that dilation, Barry will still retain his super speed (since Zoom himself lacks true superspeed). This creates a layered speed advantage, making my amalgam orders of magnitude faster than Flobo.

From there, Cassandra Nova takes over.

Against billions of psychic resistant Lobos, any one of whom could transfer you into a crippled Dr Flobo (Dr ....SloWest*)?

Tricky. Not to mention, Dr Flobo could speedsteal from his clones, bumping OG Flobo up to insane levels.

On a more general note, I find it interesting that when it came down to it, everyone recognises that the only way to beat a speedster like Flash...is to get another speedster in the mix. Nobody has picked WW, nobody has picked Hulk, nobody has picked a telepath on their own (even with Grodd available, a proven telepath who regularly, in comics, takes Wally out), no Marvel speedsters like Gladiator etc....everyone picks Zoom as their best chance of beating an amalgam with Wally in it.

* Yes, I did this just to get a new amalgamated name.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
On a more general note, I find it interesting that when it came down to it, everyone recognises that the only way to beat a speedster like Flash...is to get another speedster in the mix. Nobody has picked WW, nobody has picked Hulk, nobody has picked a telepath on their own (even with Grodd available, a proven telepath who regularly, in comics, takes Wally out), no Marvel speedsters like Gladiator etc....everyone picks Zoom as their best chance of beating an amalgam with Wally in it. That might have something to do with the fact that Wally is only in for the speed in this amalgam? I'm pretty sure Doom provides some TP resistance / Immunity, so guys like Grodd are useless to begin with.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
That might have something to do with the fact that Wally is only in for the speed in this amalgam? I'm pretty sure Doom provides some TP resistance / Immunity, so guys like Grodd are useless to begin with.

He does, but Grodd, consistently in comics, is able to react to and tag one of the fastest heralds in comics.

Yet no one would pick him and say well, before Doom or Lobo can enact any TP defence, he gets mindraped. Everyone seems to recognise that him mindraping Flash seems to be a losing strat when in a forum fight.....

Unless people are saying Doom + Lobo = complete and utter immunity to TP.

Originally posted by Juntai
Lobo is banned from Heaven and Hell and is to be collected under no circumstances. Sonovab1tch. Innocent souls can go to Hell but if Hell refuses to accept a soul? I am unaware of any instances in Marvel/DC where a merged soul that is partially damned, partially refused, could still be subject to Hell...

... after all, Constantine conned Hell into refusing his completely damned soul in Dead in America.

Guess that immunizes Dr. Flobo from damnation towards Hell.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He does, but Grodd, consistently in comics, is able to react to and tag one of the fastest heralds in comics.

Yet no one would pick him and say well, before Doom or Lobo can enact any TP defence, he gets mindraped. Everyone seems to recognise that him mindraping Flash seems to be a losing strat when in a forum fight.....

Unless people are saying Doom + Lobo = complete and utter immunity to TP. Grodd has done so, yes.

Because a simpler option in this tripartite amalgam is to just choose another Speedforce user and not get into any arguments of speed of thought vs. speed of light+?

This strikes me as you overanalyzing at best, and reverse-projecting your own motivations onto others at worst.

What else is there to analyze on this dead forum? Carver's latest mistakes? Mind's latest drug-induced misogyny? You and abhi's constant use of n1gga and phag? My lack of friends?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Against billions of psychic resistant Lobos, any one of whom could transfer you into a crippled Dr Flobo (Dr ....SloWest*)?

Tricky. Not to mention, Dr Flobo could speedsteal from his clones, bumping OG Flobo up to insane levels.

On a more general note, I find it interesting that when it came down to it, everyone recognises that the only way to beat a speedster like Flash...is to get another speedster in the mix. Nobody has picked WW, nobody has picked Hulk, nobody has picked a telepath on their own (even with Grodd available, a proven telepath who regularly, in comics, takes Wally out), no Marvel speedsters like Gladiator etc....everyone picks Zoom as their best chance of beating an amalgam with Wally in it.

* Yes, I did this just to get a new amalgamated name. Heh. Speed-stealing from billions of equally powerful clones is actually genius, and makes Dr. Flobo even more broken than I first thought.

And yeah, of course Zoom is the go-to for most(he would have been my first pick for Flobo's speedster component, but I wanted Wally's added Speed Force haxx)... Because deep down everyone knows how inconsequential power alone is, if you're too slow to touch your opponent -- especially in a thread with no character restrictions, like this. It's the "silent truth" of KMC, if you will.

IOW, if a character cannot perceive/react/think faster than Dr. Flobo, then good luck proving they can mount any sort of legitimate counterattack at all... Nevermind proving they can tank, say, a few-hundred-million clones delivering consecutive IMPs(not even Nix "Supergod" Uotan could tank that sort of thing)... In conjunction with a few-hundred-million more actively draining kinetic energy... In conjunction with a few-hundred-million more preforming esoteric magical(or technological) binding/illusion/multiplication spells or whatever... In conjunction with a few-hundred-million more delivering lethal phase-based attacks and the like, (etc. etc. etc.)... All taking place within the first attosecond of the battle.

...Meanwhile, "Flobo-Prime", with his speed and perceptions now enhanced to unfathomable levels after absorbing the collective speed of hundreds of millions more clones, just sits atop his metaphysical perch, watching this attosecond-long battle unfold in super-slo-mo, continuously cal'cing infinite scenarios to see if his strategy needs to be altered in-between attoseconds... And while Flobo-Prime is in some ways a vital piece of the puzzle, he's ultimately expendable. All I need is for one drop of blood to survive, and Dr. Flobo lives on!

the problem is the prep and cloning ability in general. because a single flobo is already hard to get around, but still possible. an army of flobo's is a way different story though.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
the problem is the prep and cloning ability in general. https://i.ibb.co/qMHsyWMf/Eureka.gif

1. According to the OP, Flobo gets an hour of prep time as he perceives it, which equates to operating at human-level speed within a literal hour. Therefore, the number of clones he can create is inherently limited by that timeframe.

2. I'm shocked that no one critiqued my amalgam. It clearly demonstrates that a second from Flobo's perspective be equivalent to billions of years from my amalgam's perspective. That means by amalgam can Metroman freeze him for billions of years. However, Cassandra Nova only needs a few seconds within that billions of years to do her thing to Flobo.

Originally posted by h1a8
Here's my amalgam:
Zoom + Barry Allen + Cassandra Nova = Zovallen

Remember how Fox Quicksilver could move at normal speed while everything around him was frozen, yet still zip around at super speed within that slowed time? This amalgam operates on the same principle - superspeed inside an already slowed-down time perception.

Zoom will slow time to a level where he nearly matches Flobo, but within that dilation, Barry will still retain his super speed (since Zoom himself lacks true superspeed). This creates a layered speed advantage, making my amalgam orders of magnitude faster than Flobo.

From there, Cassandra Nova takes over.

Ok, here's a new proposition: Fantomex + Maxwell Lord + Barry Allen.

Speed isn't an issue given Barry can effectively negate/match Wally and, well... this stratagem has more to do with the mind anyway. A simple physical flesh wound on Dr. Flobo to invoke the blood-cloning ability is the first step. Which Dr. Flobo might have already done or, if they haven't, even welcome as they'd think it only increases his own odds of victory.

The second step is Fantomex and Maxwell Lord's unmatched misdirection & telepathy powers instantly implanting suggestions into every clone amplifying Doctor Doom's intrinsic ego while also inserting the notion that there is a single "prime" Dr. Flobo amongst the clones.

Doctor Doom's inflated ego would never countenance him not being uniquely superior and would naturally try to eliminate any blood-clone seeking to supplant the "prime" Dr. Flobo. And this affliction affects every single blood-clone. They'd be more concerned with destroying each other than fighting their actual opponent because the opponent is the "lesser threat" due to their inflated ego. And they might realize that nullifying their blood-cloning ability is the quickest avenue to narrowing the field to a single "prime" Dr. Flobo. They might actually do it too.

In which case, the amalgam Fantomex + Maxwell Lord + Barry Allen character sits back and let's them destroy themselves.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. According to the OP, Flobo gets an hour of prep time as he perceives it, which equates to operating at human-level speed within a literal hour. Therefore, the number of clones he can create is inherently limited by that timeframe. I think you might be underestimating just how vast an unrestricted Dr. Flobo army can become in a very short period of time.

Even if my initial clone "only" produced, say, 50,000 drops of blood(which really isn't much at all, especially with Lobo's HF + the directive to do this continuously for an hour at superspeed), and then those 50,000 clones did the exact same thing, that already puts my numbers at 2.5 BILLION. If those clones then did the same thing, it puts my numbers at...well...tell me what 2.5b x 50k is.

...And that all takes place within the first few seconds(hell, you can even say minutes if you want) of Dr. Flobo's prep phase. You could very well end up with a multiverse-worth of clones in an hour if Flobo went really hard.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. According to the OP, Flobo gets an hour of prep time as he perceives it, which equates to operating at human-level speed within a literal hour. Therefore, the number of clones he can create is inherently limited by that timeframe.

2. I'm shocked that no one critiqued my amalgam. It clearly demonstrates that a second from Flobo's perspective be equivalent to billions of years from my amalgam's perspective. That means by amalgam can Metroman freeze him for billions of years. However, Cassandra Nova only needs a few seconds within that billions of years to do her thing to Flobo.

I did.

Wally jumped up to Zoom's level by speedstealing from 'lesser' speedsters - Jay, Bart and Jesse, iirc.

Now he gets to speedsteal from a billion Wallys. He'd be FAR in excess of Barry/Zoom.

Plus, mind transfer into a booby trapped clone body. With prep, Flobo could have a spell - the 'attosecond' after a clone (any clone) gets it's consciousness swapped out, a spell activates which renders all their limbs immobile, all memories wiped, unable to speak or move, etc etc. then with billions of clones on the field, only one needs to make eye contact with your character and it's over.

Okay, new amalgam..

Zoom
Cyborg Superman
Nate Grey

Name: TBD

Zoom. I need him for the speed and perceptions of course.
Cyborg Superman. He gives me the ability to take control of Dr Flobo's armor with technopathy (I'm guessing he's still wearing Doom style armor right?)
Nate Grey. The ability to mindrape, along with other psi options to amp my attack and defense. He also has that weird ability to step into planck time.

So I am faster than Flobo, I can hack his armor, and I can mindrape him.

Originally posted by Infinaut616
Okay, new amalgam..

Zoom
Cyborg Superman
Nate Grey

Name: TBD

Zoom. I need him for the speed and perceptions of course.
Cyborg Superman. He gives me the ability to take control of Dr Flobo's armor with technopathy (I'm guessing he's still wearing Doom style armor right?)
Nate Grey. The ability to mindrape, along with other psi options to amp my attack and defense. He also has that weird ability to step into planck time.

So I am faster than Flobo, I can hack his armor, and I can mindrape him. Original strat... I like it!

My "vision" for Dr. Flobo is basically the OP pic. So yeah, Doom-esque armor(wouldn't be a Doom amalgam if it weren't included, tbh.)

As for speed-superiority: Zoom is indeed a great choice there(probably the best, actually), but when you factor in Dr. Flobo's ability to absorb the speed of millions/billions of clones during his prep phase(and if need be, share fractions of his augmented speed with specific clones at will), Zoom's "faasssterrrthaaannnyyyoouuu" status, um... Diminishes quite a bit, to say the least.

I like the hacking angle for sure. Doom's armor is also fortified with high-levels magics, though, which changes things quite a bit. I certainly wouldn't put it past Henshaw to hack the armor(given his Source Wall feat), but the question is if he can hack billionS of Doom-level armors before he is IMP'd into oblivion within the first attosecond of the battle..? Prolly not, imo, but I can be swayed here.

The mindrape angle is a great way to cover your bases, and against one Dr. Flobo it'd be borderline perfect. Against billionS of Flobo-minds(so Doom+Lobo), moving around at Wally(++)-speeds? Nah... Nate ain't that guy.

but HOW resistant to mindrape are we talking? because most non abstract minds in comics would be susceptible to tp from most of the high end telepaths on the list.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
but HOW resistant to mindrape are we talking? Extreeemely resistant.

Doom alone has psychic defenses in place that can essentially no-sell Emma-tier telepaths(as seen during Dark Reign, iirc.) Lobo alone has psychic defenses in place that effectively shut-out Starro the Conqueror.

*Keep in mind that Starro's TP absolutely obliterated Despero(an elite telepath in his own right)... Yet Lobo's mind was beyond his ability to overtake. Nice.

...So I won't say that Dr. Flobo is "immune" to telepathy, but I'd wager that he is about as resistant to TP as a character can possibly be without having complete TP-immunity, if that makes sense? IOW, even one Dr. Flobo isn't getting mindraped "easily" by anyone... Nevermind billionS of Flobos.

And on the topic of Lobo's mind, there are also things like this to consider:
https://i.ibb.co/pv9XDzvK/HaxxMind.jpg

Originally posted by ODG
Doctor Doom's inflated ego would never countenance him not being uniquely superior and would naturally try to eliminate any blood-clone seeking to supplant the "prime" Dr. Flobo. And this affliction affects every single blood-clone. They'd be more concerned with destroying each other than fighting their actual opponent because the opponent is the "lesser threat" due to their inflated ego. And they might realize that nullifying their blood-cloning ability is the quickest avenue to narrowing the field to a single "prime" Dr. Flobo. They might actually do it too. Nah. The potential in-fighting would only come after the primary opponent/objective(ie. the other amalgam) has been dealt with, imo.

But what becomes of Dr. Flobo after the battle matters not.

Originally posted by Galan007
If those clones then did the same thing, it puts my numbers at...well...tell me what 2.5b x 50k is. 1.25e+14.

If you allow for just one more round using the 50000 figure you get 6.25e+18 clones. One more round and you get 3.125e+23 clones. That is absolute insanity, you weren't kidding about a multiverse of clones.

All that limits the clone army is the amount of time it takes for them to grow.

Originally posted by LordGod
All that limits the clone army is the amount of time it takes for them to grow. Yep.

And Lobo's natural HF allows him to fully regenerate from the blood-level within seconds:
https://i.ibb.co/yFV2DYZb/52-Week-020-2006-Digital-HD-Monafekk-Empire-018.jpg https://i.ibb.co/ycLWqKT2/52-Week-020-2006-Digital-HD-Monafekk-Empire-019.jpg
*Only difference here is that I'd be getting a separate Dr. Flobo clone for every individual droplet of blood, instead of a pool.
*Also keep in mind that Dr. Flobo's HF = Lobo's HF, further boosted by the Speed Force. IOW, far faster and more efficient blood/clone regen than what you see in those scans(if you can imagine that, lol.)

Frankly, limiting the clone army I could amass in an hour to 'just' billions is borderline offensive to Dr. Flobo's powerset, but it still gets the point across.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think you might be underestimating just how vast an unrestricted Dr. Flobo army can become in a very short period of time.

Even if my initial clone "only" produced, say, 50,000 drops of blood(which really isn't much at all, especially with Lobo's HF + the directive to do this continuously for an hour at superspeed), and then those 50,000 clones did the exact same thing, that already puts my numbers at 2.5 BILLION. If those clones then did the same thing, it puts my numbers at...well...tell me what 2.5b x 50k is.

...And that all takes place within the first few seconds(hell, you can even say minutes if you want) of Dr. Flobo's prep phase. You could very well end up with a multiverse-worth of clones in an hour if Flobo went really hard.

But you said an hour prep is an hour in the perception of Flobo (even if it's a nanosecond). So how many clones can be produced in a nanosecond?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I did.

Wally jumped up to Zoom's level by speedstealing from 'lesser' speedsters - Jay, Bart and Jesse, iirc.

Now he gets to speedsteal from a billion Wallys. He'd be FAR in excess of Barry/Zoom.

Plus, mind transfer into a booby trapped clone body. With prep, Flobo could have a spell - the 'attosecond' after a clone (any clone) gets it's consciousness swapped out, a spell activates which renders all their limbs immobile, all memories wiped, unable to speak or move, etc etc. then with billions of clones on the field, only one needs to make eye contact with your character and it's over.

So, during prep, Flobo will make clones and then speed-steal from them? I assumed he would create the clones and speed-steal during battle.

Even so, I'll become intangible and Cassandra Nova him.
If that doesn't work, then no amalgam from the lists can beat him and the thread is over.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'd assume going to Limbo isn't self-BFR....

But really, it's a combination of magic- immunity (as Atom demonstrated, magic doesn't work on him when he's the size of a theoretical particle), microscopic stepping stones insideFlobo's brain, and the Soulsword for a magical lobotomy (which leaves zero blood).

All directed from Limbo, where time moves differently and the rules of physics etc all obey ZoomAto's whims. She can even look back in time, to see what the prep entails, and attack at different points in the timeline, whilst being safe from time shenanigans herself as Zoom lives in his own timeline.

I still think my amalgam would.

Even with his prep, from Limbo I can use scrying pools to look back in time to when he was a poor single Flobo.

I would still have a speed advantage, with Zoom and with Limbo's time passing at a different rate.

I open a stepping disc inside his brain, and shove the Soulsword through.

So match starts, with Zoom's speed I shrink into the size of a theoretical particle (Atom alone is fast enough to shrink as an explosion is happening, Magik alone was faster than Spectrum i.e. light) now he has Zoom's speed. At that size, magic doesn't work on me, and nothing Flobo has can touch me. At the same time I used a stepping Disc to go to Limbo where the rules of physics obey my will. From there I can attack at my leisure.

Originally posted by h1a8
But you said an hour prep is an hour in the perception of Flobo (even if it's a nanosecond). So how many clones can be produced in a nanosecond? You misunderstand.

I'm just saying that an hour of prep is an hour of prep. So IF Dr. Flobo chose to speed-up his perceptions and whatnot in order to complete an hour's-worth of work in a nanosecond, I suppose he technically could... OR(more logically if he's growing a clone army) he'd just take the standard hour.

Only point being: Flobo doesn't get to milk eons out of his prep phase. 1 hour means 1 hour.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I still think my amalgam would.

Even with his prep, from Limbo I can use scrying pools to look back in time to when he was a poor single Flobo.

I would still have a speed advantage, with Zoom and with Limbo's time passing at a different rate.

I open a stepping disc inside his brain, and shove the Soulsword through.

So match starts, with Zoom's speed I shrink into the size of a theoretical particle (Atom alone is fast enough to shrink as an explosion is happening, Magik alone was faster than Spectrum i.e. light) now he has Zoom's speed. At that size, magic doesn't work on me, and nothing Flobo has can touch me. At the same time I used a stepping Disc to go to Limbo where the rules of physics obey my will. From there I can attack at my leisure. Definitely has a good shot.

My only question is how well Zoom's speed would actually hold up against a prepped Dr. Flobo? Because in the OG material iirc, Wally, with the speed of Jay + Bart + Jesse(ie. only 3 far lesser speedsters) = Zoom... And in this thread, Dr. Flobo would be able to speed-steal from... Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? Billions? of Wally-level speedsters. So I can't imagine why/how he wouldn't come out of the prep phase faster than Zoom..? And if that is the case, then I could also have a few legions of my Flobo-clones absorb the speed of like 4 other clones a piece, just to ensure that they start off faster than Zoom as well.

Also, I know Wally tried to absorb Zoom's kinetic energy when they initially met, but was unsuccessful due to Zoom's time-bubble haxx or w/e. That said, shouldn't Wally have logically been able to preform KE-drainage once he was amped up to Zoom's "locked between the ticks of a second" level? I know he didn't really *need* to in that scenario, but in an unrestricted setting why *couldn't* he have, iyo?

Originally posted by Galan007
You misunderstand.

I'm just saying that an hour of prep is an hour of prep. So IF Dr. Flobo chose to speed-up his perceptions and whatnot in order to complete an hour's-worth of work in a nanosecond, I suppose he technically could... OR(more logically if he's growing a clone army) he'd just take the standard hour.

Only point being: Flobo doesn't get to milk eons out of his prep phase. 1 hour means 1 hour.

Definitely has a good shot.

My only question is how well Zoom's speed would actually hold up against a prepped Dr. Flobo? Because in the OG material iirc, Wally, with the speed of Jay + Bart + Jesse(ie. only 3 far lesser speedsters) = Zoom... And in this thread, Dr. Flobo would be able to speed-steal from... Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? Billions? of Wally-level speedsters. So I can't imagine why/how he wouldn't come out of the prep phase faster than Zoom..? And if that is the case, then I could also have a few legions of my Flobo-clones absorb the speed of like 4 other clones a piece, just to ensure that they start off faster than Zoom as well.

Also, I know Wally tried to absorb Zoom's kinetic energy when they initially met, but was unsuccessful due to Zoom's time-bubble haxx or w/e. That said, shouldn't Wally have logically been able to preform KE-drainage once he was amped up to Zoom's "locked between the ticks of a second" level? I know he didn't really *need* to in that scenario, but in an unrestricted setting why *couldn't* he have, iyo?

With Atom's shrinking, he's never shown to have it take a noticeable amount of time (though the art shows it because...comics). Magik is already FTL, being that she does so at thought level speeds (unless....??). Zoom is just there for added oomph if needed.

As for speedstealing Zoom, the way I always read it was that it was just a no limits thing - no matter how many Wally's one stacks, they'll never be able to take Zoom's speed because he has none to take. Even when Wally is 'on his level', Zoom is still in a completely different timeline.
Edit: bearing in mind, my strat was before I made the genius move of Flobo speedstealing himself lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
With Atom's shrinking, he's never shown to have it take a noticeable amount of time (though the art shows it because...comics). Magik is already FTL, being that she does so at thought level speeds (unless....??). Zoom is just there for added oomph if needed. Sure, but Zoom is undoubtedly where the speed to successfully pull off your strat against a base Dr. Flobo comes from, because Zoom > base Wally.

But if Wally + the speed of 3 lesser speedsters = Zoom, then Dr. Flobo + the speed of 'just' 3-4 Wallys(nevermind millions or w/e) should already be > Zoom... Is all I'm saying. The strat you came up with for Dr. Flobo is throwing the biggest wrench in the gears of your own amalgam, lol.

https://i.ibb.co/BH4BGP6g/Irony.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As for speedstealing Zoom, the way I always read it was that it was just a no limits thing - no matter how many Wally's one stacks, they'll never be able to take Zoom's speed because he has none to take. Even when Wally is 'on his level', Zoom is still in a completely different timeline. That never made sense to me. If Zoom is in a completely different timeline, then how could Wally punch him in the face? Clearly Zoom is physically there in at least *some* capacity, so why couldn't Wally drain him in an unrestricted setting..? I know it's probably just one of those stupid "cuz comics" things, but if we're going that route, then Lobo also "Don't do logical!"(which actually IS a legitimate aspect of his powerset)... But how much that would actually factor into a vs. thread is up for debate.

Regardless, I'd probably still just have some clones attempt to drain your amalgam's KE anyway for the lulz. Why? Because if it can be punched, it can be drained imo! Also because...

https://i.ibb.co/GQmMHKCs/Spare-Blood.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/q70nKVDb/DJ-Khaled-Suffering-From-Success-Deluxe-1410082738.jpg

My problem was that this clone army of Flash is precisely what I usually argue, and imo is a complete strategy that is unbeatable lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My problem was that this clone army of Flash is precisely what I usually argue, and imo is a complete strategy that is unbeatable lol. Thank GOD I'm not the only one who thinks this. I've been racking my brain trying to think of alternatives that haven't already been mentioned.

Have you thought of any options that could beat Dr Flobo Galan?

If we allow for Fantomex's powers being 'always on', then he would be a good bet, to swap out for the Atom. Whilst Flobo and his clones *think* they are winning (as they should be, with such stacked odds in their favor) that would give me the chance to slip away into Limbo.

The Magic Zoomex.

https://i.postimg.cc/bNFdwW4n/Zoomex.webp

Match starts, and no matter how fast Flobo is, he gets caught up in an illusion. I escape to Limbo, then:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/11137/111378174/9325604-1173940781-RCO01.jpg

Time travel, like she did here with Dr Strange, going to a time before he was an Avenger or had even heard of Magik. Or like here, when she teleported an entire plane into the future:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/9350940-3331257139-GetAttachmentThumbnail.jpg


After that, Soulsword through Flobo Prime before he gets the clones. This would be done via stepping disc in his head, so no warning for him. Even if he tries to go intangible:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/9350863-1842741066-GetAttachmentThumbnail.png

Originally posted by Infinaut616
Thank GOD I'm not the only one who thinks this. I've been racking my brain trying to think of alternatives that haven't already been mentioned.

Have you thought of any options that could beat Dr Flobo Galan? Dr. Flobo is the most generally unbeatable herald-amalgam I could come up with under these conditions(hence why I made the thread ), so I haven't put too much thought into how to try and counter him.

With a single unprepped Dr. Flobo I get:
-Superman-level physicality.
-True immortality and one of the best HFs in comics.
-The ability to move on an attosecond-by-attosecond basis(at base), coupled with all the other haxx that comes with being a master of the Speed Force.
-The ability to produce an equally powerful clone for every drop of blood spilled during the battle itself.
-Nigh-immunity to TP, coupled with the indomitable willpower of Doom+Lobo.
-High-level magical and technological protection/conjuring(at superspeed.)
-The ability to calc an infinity of scenarios nigh-instantly, coupled with one of the greatest strategic minds in comics.
-The ability to look at an opponent and immediately know their weaknesses(this would be particularly helpful during the analyzation phase, lol.)
-Etc.

...Which is already hard enough to beat as it is, but still do'able if you get creative enough.

But with prep I also get:
-The ability to produce a gargantuan army of clones, in a very short period of time.
-The ability to absorb the speed of(or lend speed to) said clones.
-Nearly unlimited magical and scientific resources to pull from, if Flobo needs to esoterically prep for additional scenarios.

...Which is obviously an intentional game-changer.


After seeing some of the responses in this thread, though, the best counter I have come up with so far is Flash (Barry) + Leech + Fate (Jared Stevens)... "Fleech".

-Barry's speed at least puts Fleech on par with base Flobo, plus I get his Speed Force haxx as well, so I *might* have a shot at speed-stealing from Flobo and his clones... An "Uno-Reverse", if you will... However, I'd still be fighting against Wally's own mastery of the Speed Force + the collective willpower of Doom and Lobo, so... Good luck?
-Leech is there to passively shut down Flobo's power entirely, if he comes within my vicinity. This nullifies his ability to blitz or do anything to me at close range, so he'll have to rely on using magic from a distance.
-That's where Fate comes into play. He has complete passive immunity to magic, so Flobo's Doom-level spells aren't affecting him at all(no matter how many are coming his way.) He also has the raw magical power and equipment to bypass any magical protection offered by Doom's armor, and kill him(at close range, due to Leech's null-field.)

Of course, Fleech isn't nearly as well-rounded as Dr. Flobo, and leaves much to be desired overall, but like others have said: it doesn't need to be the most powerful amalgam ever -- it just needs to beat Dr. Flobo specifically.

But obviously if Dr. Flobo comes into the battle with his speed amped to levels far beyond those of even Zoom, that all changes. Fleech can't do anything if he's a statue -- Flobo could literally just waltz up and decapitate him with his own dagger before he even knew the battle had started.

Originally posted by ODG
Sonovab1tch. Innocent souls can go to Hell but if Hell refuses to accept a soul? I am unaware of any instances in Marvel/DC where a merged soul that is partially damned, partially refused, could still be subject to Hell...

... after all, Constantine conned Hell into refusing his completely damned soul in Dead in America.

Guess that immunizes Dr. Flobo from damnation towards Hell. That said, BFR is probably one of the better options, if you can keep him from coming back in a reasonable time with Wally and Doom's abilities.

But just giving Doom the equivalent of like a thousand years of thinking every second is already pretty out of hand for most people to deal with, let alone adding all the broken Lobo nonsense.

Originally posted by Galan007
You misunderstand.

I'm just saying that an hour of prep is an hour of prep. So IF Dr. Flobo chose to speed-up his perceptions and whatnot in order to complete an hour's-worth of work in a nanosecond, I suppose he technically could... OR(more logically if he's growing a clone army) he'd just take the standard hour.

Only point being: Flobo doesn't get to milk eons out of his prep phase. 1 hour means 1 hour.

So, he operates at normal human speed and cognition during that hour since any accelerated thinking or actions would make him perceive the hour as much longer (essentially completing an hour of prep in a nanosecond).

If that's correct, can you estimate how many clones he could create in that nanosecond or in that hour if he's to operate at human speed and cognition?

You're overcomplicating this, I think?

An hour is an hour. So if Dr. Flobo opts to use his prep phase, then he has one(1) hour to grow a clone army.

I don't know the exact number of clones Dr. Flobo could produce in that time, but it's a lot. Lobo himself can fully regenerate from the blood-level within a few seconds, and here his HF would be further boosted by the Speed Force(so even faster than Lobo's natural HF alone)... Plus Dr. Flobo is getting an entire clone for each and every drop of blood he spills.

As mentioned previously: even "billions" of clones seems to be a laughably conservative estimate, if you go wild with this strat. /shrug

adding leech and fate is smart af.

if dr. flobo gets close to you, bam, no more powers. doesn't matter how many dr. flobos he's facing either. any kind of closeup attacks would basically just be getting thrown by a powerless and easily avoidable human. millions of imps coming at you would be stopped dead in their tracks, and even if dr. flobo was way faster then this amalgam it doesn't matter because their negation powers are always on and do not require thought to activate. kinetic energy draining or other SF mumbojumbo is also unlikely because of barry. then you have fate's blanket immunity to magic, which negs the other key part of flobo's powers.

i can get behind that and darksaint's amalgam.

Carver inadvertently stumbled onto it with Aquarian, but he needed to show magic immunity. Even when I drafted Aquarian, I stacked Fate on top for magic immunity, as I recognised that Aquarian had no real showings against magic.

The advantage of Wundarr is that unlike Leech, he also has the ability to shoot energy blasts, fly, and has Class 5 strength.

Galan, how big is the battle field?

Originally posted by Galan007
You're overcomplicating this, I think?

An hour is an hour. So if Dr. Flobo opts to use his prep phase, then he has one(1) hour to grow a clone army.

I don't know the exact number of clones Dr. Flobo could produce in that time, but it's a lot. Lobo himself can fully regenerate from the blood-level within a few seconds, and here his HF would be further boosted by the Speed Force(so even faster than Lobo's natural HF alone)... Plus Dr. Flobo is getting an entire clone for each and every drop of blood he spills.

As mentioned previously: even "billions" of clones seems to be a laughably conservative estimate, if you go wild with this strat. /shrug

I'm not overcomplicating things. He either gets a literal hour on a standard clock or he doesn't. You stated that he doesn't get a literal clock hour because, to him, a nanosecond would feel like an hour. That means he actually gets only a nanosecond of real-time prep, which is where the confusion arises.

In that nanosecond of prep, he would function as a normal human would in an actual hour, since the nanosecond is equivalent to an hour from his perspective. However, in that nanosecond - or the amount of time that feels like an hour - he cannot create a billion clones, not even close.

By my rough estimate, he could produce between 720 and 1200 clones, assuming it takes about 3 - 5 seconds to draw a drop of blood and for it to develop into a clone.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
adding leech and fate is smart af.

if dr. flobo gets close to you, bam, no more powers. doesn't matter how many dr. flobos he's facing either. any kind of closeup attacks would basically just be getting thrown by a powerless and easily avoidable human. millions of imps coming at you would be stopped dead in their tracks, and even if dr. flobo was way faster then this amalgam it doesn't matter because their negation powers are always on and do not require thought to activate. kinetic energy draining or other SF mumbojumbo is also unlikely because of barry. then you have fate's blanket immunity to magic, which negs the other key part of flobo's powers.

i can get behind that and darksaint's amalgam. I definitely like Fleech's odds against base Dr. Flobo one-on-one, and frankly, I like his odds against the entire clone army(at base) as well. Granted it might take Fleech a really long time to kill the lot of them, but a win(however extended) is still a win.

The problem, however, is that Dr. Flobo's speed could potentially be amped to such levels that even guys like Zoom(and certainly Barry) would be literal statues... In which case all Flobo has to do is casually stroll over and stuff a screwdriver in Fleech's head, ftw(you don't even need superpowers to do that.)

The theoretical brokenness of Dr. Flobo cannot be overstated.

Originally posted by carver9
Galan, how big is the battle field? My personal "default" battlefield is always the RoSaT:

https://i.ibb.co/qF36rChX/rosat.jpg

...Except boundless.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver inadvertently stumbled onto it with Aquarian, but he needed to show magic immunity. Even when I drafted Aquarian, I stacked Fate on top for magic immunity, as I recognised that Aquarian had no real showings against magic.

The advantage of Wundarr is that unlike Leech, he also has the ability to shoot energy blasts, fly, and has Class 5 strength. I had originally considered Aquarian for my Leech component. Aside from what you mentioned, the main issue I saw with him(from purely a "not wanting to argue about it" POV) is that some ambiguously-defined 'stuff' can still get through his null-field, if the writer deems it "low energy" enough or w/e. So how would it do against, say, a *snap* from Zoom, or a close-quarters piercing/vibrational attack from a speedster, or environmental manipulation from any number of characters, or localized TK attacks from any psiot on the list, or magical attacks/spellspeak in general, etc..? Just wasn't worth the argument for me, when I really don't *need* any of Aquarian's other abilities for this strategy anyway. /shrug

At least with Leech you know what you're getting: a little green freak who passively emits an omni-directional field around himself that nullifies ALL powers within it. Visually speaking, I picture Fleech's invisible null-field as something similar to a more localized Gungan Shield Generator:
https://i.ibb.co/FbHF8Rq7/shield.jpg

...Except the powers of anyone inside the 'bubble' are instantly nullified. It's shutting down speed, healing, cloning, physical stats, energy attacks, enhanced awareness, etc. etc.

In which case Fleech just starts running around the field at max speed, spamming vibrational attacks with Fate's chaos arm and exploding every Flobo-clone(*which would now be powerless, remember) that enters the null-field... It would be like the train scene from Invincible inside the bubble.

https://i.ibb.co/JwCfTX7T/meatgrinder.gif

Pure mayhem.

This leaves Dr. Flobo with only two options, as I see it:
a.) Using ranged magic-based attacks, which are completely useless against Fleech thanks to his immunity to magic.
b.) Using some sort of tech he grabbed during the prep phase. I don't know what all Doom literally has direct access to, but if it's any sort of projectile/beam-type weaponry, Fleech should be able to dodge it.

The irony is that there are waaay more amalgam options who can beat Fleech than there are amalgams who can beat a prepped Dr. Flobo. Fleech is just tailor made to exploit Flobo's... "Openings", I guess you could say? "Weaknesses" just sounds like too harsh of a word since Dr. Flobo doesn't really have any to speak of.


**But I must reiterate: that all goes out the window if Dr. Flobo speed-steals from his clones during the prep phase. Statues don't/can't fight back. ermm



{As an aside}
If I could cram one more herald into Fleech to make this strat even more fun, it'd be Black Hand. That way I could also resurrect the Flobo-clones the same instant I kill them(now they'd be under my control), then just start absorbing their speed and/or use them as soldiers(they're free meat-shields if nothing else.) But I digress...
{/nerdery}

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not overcomplicating things.

By my rough estimate, he could produce between 720 and 1200 clones, assuming it takes about 3 - 5 seconds to draw a drop of blood and for it to develop into a clone. Yes, you are.


Ehh, I'm not poking myself on the finger with a thumbtack and slowly producing individual droplets of blood one-by-one for an hour. The clones(all of them) are basically slicing their own heads off and rapidly bleeding-out in large quantities until they heal. Then they're doing it again, and again, and again(at superspeed) until the prep phase is over.

So a few pints of blood on the ground = however many thousands of individual drops of blood = a corresponding number of individual Flobo clones. Etc.

But anyway, lets use these randomly low figures you came up with, for the lulz. Dr. Flobo only needs to absorb the speed of 3-4 clones to be faster than Zoom(*the* fastest unamped character on the list, by far)... So he absorbs the speed of 20 clones for good measure. That alone puts Dr. Flobo vastly beyond Zoom, and therefore beyond any amalgam you're likely to come up with.

...And he'd still have at least 700 clones left to do whatever he wants with afterward. IOW, the end result is still the same regardless: Flobo wins.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
adding leech and fate is smart af.

if dr. flobo gets close to you, bam, no more powers. doesn't matter how many dr. flobos he's facing either. any kind of closeup attacks would basically just be getting thrown by a powerless and easily avoidable human. millions of imps coming at you would be stopped dead in their tracks, and even if dr. flobo was way faster then this amalgam it doesn't matter because their negation powers are always on and do not require thought to activate. kinetic energy draining or other SF mumbojumbo is also unlikely because of barry. then you have fate's blanket immunity to magic, which negs the other key part of flobo's powers.

i can get behind that and darksaint's amalgam. Agree.

Originally posted by Galan007
The strat you came up with for Dr. Flobo is throwing the biggest wrench in the gears of your own amalgam, lol.

https://i.ibb.co/BH4BGP6g/Irony.jpg Looks like it threw a wrench in yours too.

Oh and I also wanted to point out that even though Dr Flobo's natural powers would all be removed if he was inside Leech's field, his Doom armor would still be completely functional. So even without any super powers, you'd still be up against an army of Iron Men basically. Super strong, super durable, super fast.. all that. So they could still possibly dogpile Fleech to get the win that way.

What about something like:

Zoom
Animal Man
The Shade

Dr Flobo could speed up past Zoom before the match, but the Shade brings a lot of "natural" defense and immunity and intangibility, with a source of magic that Doom has never encountered before and has no meaningful ability to prep against until the fight starts.

So the gambit is that Shazoomimal could be hard enough to kill, trap or BFR, just long enough to copy an amoeba and replicate en masse.

From there it's clone army vs clone army... but one has the benefit of exponentially compounding darkforce energy. I'd wager that the Shazoomimal army will make each individual Shazoomimal that much more godlike.

Originally posted by Infinaut616
Agree.

Looks like it threw a wrench in yours too. In my defense, I didn't make this thread with the intention of playing chess against... Myself? Shit's confusing, lol.

Frankly, had I considered DS's speed-stealing-from-clones tactic beforehand, I probably would have allowed you to include up to four heralds in your amalgam... Because with the aforementioned strat in the equation, it kind of seems like the existing amalgams might need a little extra help to have a conceivable shot at beating Dr. Flobo under these conditions.
mmm

Originally posted by Infinaut616
Oh and I also wanted to point out that even though Dr Flobo's natural powers would all be removed if he was inside Leech's field, his Doom armor would still be completely functional. So even without any super powers, you'd still be up against an army of Iron Men basically. Super strong, super durable, super fast.. all that. So they could still possibly dogpile Fleech to get the win that way. Indeed. Even when powerless, Dr. Flobo is still a force to be reckoned with(especially in numbers.)

...But they ain't doing jack to Fleech at that level. Armor or not, they'd still be relative statues inside Fleech's null-field, and he'd be blitzing them by the attosecond with vibrational attacks from his chaos arm+dagger -- he's casually one-piecing them, in other words.

Originally posted by Smurph
What about something like:

Zoom
Animal Man
The Shade

Dr Flobo could speed up past Zoom before the match, but the Shade brings a lot of "natural" defense and immunity and intangibility, with a source of magic that Doom has never encountered before and has no meaningful ability to prep against until the fight starts.

So the gambit is that Shazoomimal could be hard enough to kill, trap or BFR, just long enough to copy an amoeba and replicate en masse.

From there it's clone army vs clone army... but one has the benefit of exponentially compounding darkforce energy. I'd wager that the Shazoomimal army will make each individual Shazoomimal that much more godlike. I like this! You could honestly go nuts with Animal Man strats... Throw Sun-Eaters and Space B in the mix if you wanted to, lol.

But I think speed is still going to be Shazoomimal's main issue, no?

If Dr. Flobo 'only' absorbs the speed of 3 clones, he already becomes just as fast as Zoom(in all likelihood even faster, given that Wally+Wally+Wally > Jay+Bart+Jesse.) 4 clones and he's definitely faster. Every bit of speed Flobo absorbs after that would only serve to fossilize Shazoomimal even moreso. Moreover, Flobo has the potential numbers to allow for a few-million more clones to amp themselves to beyond Zoom-level speeds as well, in preparation for a massive "SuperIMP"(ie. at the onset of the battle, millions of Flobo clones would use their superior speed to consecutively IMP Shazoomimal on a continuous loop until he was either incapacitated/dead or they were.) Meanwhile I have a few-dozen more clones(also amped) prepping for an instantaneous KE-drain(why not?), and if that fails they just resort to spamming Shazoomimal with piercing vibrational attacks for the lulz(why not?)... And that could potentially be just a mere micro-fraction of my collective clone army.

Also, while Doom logically wouldn't have any way to prep for Shade's magic specifically, I would assume his armor's default/residual defenses still offer *some* level of general resistance in that regard... As would his overall offensive/defensive magics being preformed at superspeed, imo. /shrug

Anyways... Battle starts, Shazoomimal is a statue relative to my hyper-amped Flobos, the SuperIMP payload is being delivered perpetually(if something like that...delivered just once...can harm Nix Uotan, it can harm pretty much anyone, no matter how exotic/esoteric/high-end their powers might be.)

tl;dr
When all else fails, just punch it in the face really hard.

Yeah, with that strat, you should have Multiple Man instead.

Match starts, Flobo delivers an IMP. This creates......a billion clones, all with Zoom's speed.lf you want, you could then replace Zoom with Bart, or someone else who who could also speed steal. Maybe Jay? But replace his Galan-tier heart. Or Max Mercury, someone who understands the SF better than Wally. You get what I'm getting at - we need a SF user who is fast, and can also speed steal.

The clones all lend each other speed as well. Infinite mass = infinite energy = infinite clones.

I also feel like trying to match(or exceed) a prepped/amped Dr. Flobo's potential speed is pretty much out of the question without having prep yourself -- especially when even the likes of Zoom would initially be a statue in comparison(to varying orders of magnitude.) So it's better if your amalgam's primary strategical abilities are passive, that way they can't be out-sped no matter how much faster Flobo is. That at least buys you time to actually mount a legitimate counterattack before you're instantly SuperIMP'd into oblivion.

Because if you can't become faster than Flobo, you need to at least be able to heavily dampen(or entirely negate) his key powers, imo. That's why guys like Leech and Fate are so crucial to my strat. Same with the folks in your amalgam, I'm sure... As an aside: I originally considered using Savitar as my speedster component("Feechitar", due to his heightened mastery of the Speed Force being a possible counter to Flobo's own SF haxx(IOW, he might have a better shot at draining the Flobo-clones himself)... But I don't think even Savitar can contend with guys like Barry and Wally in that department anymore. /shrug

But again, even the mighty Fleech would still fall victim to an amped Dr. Flobo. With his far superior/amped speed, Flobo could literally walk over and give Fleech the Mordru treatment, before he could even process that the match had started.

...If speed-stealing/lending from his clones was off the table, however, I'd give Fleech the odds against even the gargantuan army that base Dr. Flobo brings to the table... But it is a viable strat, I'm afraid, and I'm sure everyone is super happy you pointed that one out.

This was overlooked.
Originally posted by Juntai
That said, BFR is probably one of the better options, if you can keep him from coming back in a reasonable time with Wally and Doom's abilities. But I think you're right. Simple BFR could actually work against Dr Flobo.

Nah.

All of the characters comprising Dr. Flobo have reasonable resistance/immunity to BFR as well:
-Doom, with his magic and/or tech.
-Flash, with his SF haxx.
-Lobo, with...well...He got to and from the 5th dimension(which isn't even on the multiversal map) somehow:
https://ibb.co/275fzMLS
srug
*Come to think of it, the fact that an entire world full of 5D-Imps didn't just instantly incapacitate/kill Lobo(rather, Lobo was able to incapacitate/kill them... With an assault rifle, lol) indicates *some* type of cartoonish resistance/immunity to... Something..? But I dunno exactly what..?

Anyway, if you're fishing for some kind of glaring weaknesses in Dr. Flobo, you're... Unlikely to find any.



**I'd also add(because I just thought about it) that Lobo's ability to accurately track anyone/thing(even cross-dimensionally) would be rather helpful against most illusions and the like, I'd think(Flobo would always hone-in on the real deal)... Especially when said ability might also(?) get further boosted by the SF.

^ You seriously need to read-up on Lobo, because that is definitely not how his blood-cloning works... A pool of blood is perfectly capable of spawning a clone army by itself:
https://i.ibb.co/xKdRSWcj/image.jpg

______________________________


https://i.ibb.co/LDS9f4wf/001.jpg https://i.ibb.co/8DqQSD9S/002.jpg

______________________________


https://i.ibb.co/vxvCPmJP/003.jpg https://i.ibb.co/yFdCPt6d/004.jpg https://i.ibb.co/ccG6DPz6/005.jpg

______________________________


https://i.ibb.co/7JVCCcn2/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-2020-005-014.jpg https://i.ibb.co/cSQ2GC6j/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-2020-005-016.jpg


...Because a pool/puddle of blood still contains 'x' number of individual drops, which equates to a corresponding number of clones per puddle. Hence my cloning strategy for Dr. Flobo.


Also... How is Zoom+Barry > Wally+a billion Wallys again? You lost me(even more) with that one.

Another possible amalgam is Zoom + Nate Grey + Barry Allen.

Nate enters the 'Planck length' between moments. It's unclear if the writer meant "Planck time", which is 1e-44 seconds. If so, this would make him more than 1e17 times faster than Flobo, even after Flobo absorbs the speed of a billion clones.

Im going Zoom, Absorbing man, and Wundaar.

Originally posted by carver9
Im going Zoom, Absorbing man, and Wundaar.

This dies when Flobo casts a spell turning them into a pile of cocaine.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ You seriously need to read-up on Lobo, because that is definitely not how his blood-cloning works... A pool of blood is perfectly capable of spawning a clone army by itself:
https://i.ibb.co/LDS9f4wf/001.jpg https://i.ibb.co/8DqQSD9S/002.jpg

______________________________


https://i.ibb.co/vxvCPmJP/003.jpg https://i.ibb.co/yFdCPt6d/004.jpg https://i.ibb.co/ccG6DPz6/005.jpg


...Hence my cloning strategy for Dr. Flobo.


Also... How is Zoom+Barry > Wally+a billion Wallys again? You lost me(even more) with that one.


Zoom doesn't have any superspeed. He just slows down time relative to his own personal reference time frame while moving at normal human speed within that altered reference frame. Now, imagine if instead of moving at human speed within that altered time frame, he moved at Barry's speed. That's like experiencing an attosecond within an actual attosecond as a normal second, or 1e-36 of a second as a normal second.

By comparison, a billion times faster Wally would have 1e-18/1e9 = 1e-27 of a second perceptions. In other words, he would perceive 1e-27 of a second as a normal second.

Since 1e-36 is a billion times faster than 1e-27, Zoom moving at Barry's speed in his altered time frame would be exponentially beyond a being that is a billion times faster than Wally could achieve.

Any amalgam that isn't as fast or faster than Flobo will be frozen for an extremely long time the moment the fight begins.

This means all the creative and fantastic strategies your amalgam might have become useless. And since the amalgam has no prep time, they must start the fight completely vulnerable to physical and or magical attacks with no active defenses.

People often fail to realize that having an exponential speed advantage is essentially the same as stopping time - there is practically no difference.

Ok back to the drawing board

What about:

Cyborg Superman
Shadow King
Rogue

"Cybrow"


Shadow King exists without a physical body, and he can also hop between hosts, forever. As well, he's shown that he can spread his control across a population like a virus. Cyborg Superman has hacked the source wall itself, and would best Doom's defences with a bit of time.

So between those two powersets, Cybrow hops and spreads between armors and clone bodies. Both give him the capacity to control legions. Now, Flobo has defenses to TP and techno attacks, but as soon as Cybrow makes contact, he also drains power + knowledge via Rogue.

And from there he can remain ethereal but use Flash's speed steal and have all the secrets of Doom's magic and armor. While he spreads across the Dr Flobo army and converts them to his side or steals their speed and power. He could also steal Lobo's powers in order to create duplicating Cyborg Kryptonians with Doom's magic and Wally's speed steal and Shadow King's immortality. The duplicates would just exponentially increase his ability to convert the Flobo army by force.

Originally posted by h1a8
Zoom doesn't have any superspeed. He just slows down time relative to his own personal reference time frame while moving at normal human speed within that altered reference frame. Now, imagine if instead of moving at human speed within that altered time frame, he moved at Barry's speed. That's like experiencing an attosecond within an actual attosecond as a normal second Still confused.

Wouldn't Zoom himself *require* legitimate superspeed in order to match Barry's speed within his own time-bubble? This seems like a huge reach either way -- not really buying it, tbh. /shrug

Also, absorbing the speed of a mere 3 clones would already make Dr. Flobo =/> Zoom. So even if I 'only' had him absorb the speed of a few-dozen clones during my prep phase, Zoom is still going to be a statue at the onset, and your amalgam will be IMP-spammed before they can even react.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This dies when Flobo casts a spell turning them into a pile of cocaine.


Creel sucks with his powers. Luckily I control it.

Originally posted by carver9
Creel sucks with his powers. Luckily I control it. that will surely improve things

Originally posted by Galan007
Still confused.

Wouldn't Zoom himself *require* legitimate superspeed in order to match Barry's speed within his own time-bubble? This seems like a huge reach either way -- not really buying it, tbh. /shrug

Also, absorbing the speed of a mere 3 clones would already make Dr. Flobo =/> Zoom. So even if I 'only' had him absorb the speed of a few-dozen clones during my prep phase, Zoom is still going to be a statue at the onset, and your amalgam will be IMP-spammed before they can even react. You Let me ask a simple question and then we can go from there.

Do you understand that the Zoom-Barry combo can perceive and make actions in an attosecond of an attosecond?

Originally posted by Smurph
that will surely improve things "Luckily".

Originally posted by h1a8
Do you understand that the Zoom-Barry combo can perceive and make actions in an attosecond of an attosecond? Lol, no.

Originally posted by carver9
Creel sucks with his powers. Luckily I control it.

Originally posted by Smurph
Ok back to the drawing board

What about:

Cyborg Superman
Shadow King
Rogue

"Cybrow"


Shadow King exists without a physical body, and he can also hop between hosts, forever. As well, he's shown that he can spread his control across a population like a virus. Cyborg Superman has hacked the source wall itself, and would best Doom's defences with a bit of time.

So between those two powersets, Cybrow hops and spreads between armors and clone bodies. Both give him the capacity to control legions. Now, Flobo has defenses to TP and techno attacks, but as soon as Cybrow makes contact, he also drains power + knowledge via Rogue.

And from there he can remain ethereal but use Flash's speed steal and have all the secrets of Doom's magic and armor. While he spreads across the Dr Flobo army and converts them to his side or steals their speed and power. He could also steal Lobo's powers in order to create duplicating Cyborg Kryptonians with Doom's magic and Wally's speed steal and Shadow King's immortality. The duplicates would just exponentially increase his ability to convert the Flobo army by force.

Originally posted by h1a8
Any amalgam that isn't as fast or faster than Flobo will be frozen for an extremely long time the moment the fight begins.

This means all the creative and fantastic strategies your amalgam might have become useless. And since the amalgam has no prep time, they must start the fight completely vulnerable to physical and or magical attacks with no active defenses.

People often fail to realize that having an exponential speed advantage is essentially the same as stopping time - there is practically no difference.

Originally posted by h1a8
You misunderstand.

Physical attacks don't mean much to Shadow King.

Originally posted by Smurph
Ok back to the drawing board

What about:

Cyborg Superman
Shadow King
Rogue

"Cybrow"


Shadow King exists without a physical body, and he can also hop between hosts, forever. As well, he's shown that he can spread his control across a population like a virus. Cyborg Superman has hacked the source wall itself, and would best Doom's defences with a bit of time.

So between those two powersets, Cybrow hops and spreads between armors and clone bodies. Both give him the capacity to control legions. Now, Flobo has defenses to TP and techno attacks, but as soon as Cybrow makes contact, he also drains power + knowledge via Rogue.

And from there he can remain ethereal but use Flash's speed steal and have all the secrets of Doom's magic and armor. While he spreads across the Dr Flobo army and converts them to his side or steals their speed and power. He could also steal Lobo's powers in order to create duplicating Cyborg Kryptonians with Doom's magic and Wally's speed steal and Shadow King's immortality. The duplicates would just exponentially increase his ability to convert the Flobo army by force. Loving some of the creativity I've seen here.

Anyway, I feel like Cybrow is very susceptible to an instantaneous KE-drain, IMPs, or any number of SF-related shenanigans, no? Imo, without at least a Flash-level speedster in the equation, Cybrow already starts off at a significant disadvantage in that he'd likely be a statue to even a base Dr. Flobo, and has no counters for SF haxx.

Then I guess it's just a matter of what happens to SK's essence if his host body is fossilized via complete drainage..? Is he locked inside as well, or does he try to body-hop before the Flobo clones speed-spam every containment spell and whatnot in Doom's arsenal?

Originally posted by Galan007
Loving some of the creativity I've seen here.

Anyway, I feel like Cybrow is very susceptible to an instantaneous KE-drain, IMPs, or any number of SF-related shenanigans, no? Imo, without at least a Flash-level speedster in the equation, Cybrow already starts off at a significant disadvantage in that he'd likely be a statue to even a base Dr. Flobo, and has no counters for SF haxx.

Then I guess it's just a matter of what happens to SK's essence if his host body is fossilized via complete drainage..? Is he locked inside as well, or does he try to body-hop before the Flobo clones speed-spam every containment spell and whatnot in Doom's arsenal? Oh, I think it's a given that the initial body is forfeit. But SK doesn't require a body to attack from. And I'm not sure that Flash has ever speed stolen from an ethereal multiversal entity. Has he?

Originally posted by Smurph
Oh, I think it's a given that the initial body is forfeit. But SK doesn't require a body to attack from. And I'm not sure that Flash has ever speed stolen from an ethereal multiversal entity. Has he? Dr. Flobo brings the Spook-Collector Gun to the party, then:
https://ibb.co/RkCgY0Hk
https://ibb.co/ymskDypx


Flobo doesn't have to beat the entire multiversal manifestation of SK, though. Just the "tendril" merged with Cybrow.

I'm also curious just how resistant a Lobo+Doom combo would be against SK's type of possession..? Isn't it psi-based?

Originally posted by Galan007
Nah. The potential in-fighting would only come after the primary opponent/objective(ie. the other amalgam) has been dealt with, imo.

But what becomes of Dr. Flobo after the battle matters not. This is why I doubled down on the misdirection abilities of Fantomex exponentially enhanced by Maxwell Lord. They could subtly influence "prime" Dr. Flobo or any/all of his blood clones into believing it's wiser to narrow the field before the non-Dr. Flobo opposition was truly eliminated in an act of self-sabotage. Because who would pose a bigger threat to Dr. Flobo than.... Dr. Flobo himself?

More overtly, the Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord amalgam could also misdirect all the Dr. Flobo clones into believing the battle was already over. Because it looks like we both agree that once Dr. Flobo believes the battle to be over, their ego will demand a "prime" Dr. Flobo rise above the rest, leading all of them FFA'ing btw themselves over who is "prime" Dr. Flobo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Dr. Flobo brings the Spook-Collector Gun to the party, then:
https://ibb.co/RkCgY0Hk
https://ibb.co/ymskDypx


Flobo doesn't have to beat the entire multiversal manifestation of SK, though. Just the "tendril" merged with Cybrow.

I'm also curious just how resistant a Lobo+Doom combo would be against SK's type of possession..? Isn't it psi-based? But it's not a tendril merged with Cybrow, is it? Shadow King forms one third of the amalgam. So Cybrow includes the full entity.

The spook collector gun is cool but I tend to think that trying to capture the essence of Cyborg Superman would just lead to Henshaw taking over the gun itself. I'm not sure there's tech in Marvel or DC that could feasibly "contain" him.

As to your last question, SK is certainly psi based. But as soon as he was attacking them from the astral plane or whatever, I think he's made metaphysical contact... which should be enough for Rogue's powers to kick in. And psi resistance won't help with that.

And then there's Henshaw's possession, which isn't psi based but tech based, and should work against the armors.

^ Maybe I missed it from other discussions but why would any of Dr. Flobo's blood-clones have the original's armor such that Dr. Flobo's armor means anything outside of prime Dr. Flobo?

IIRC, Lobo's blood-clones don't emerge fully-clothed. They're all butt-nekkid.

No homo.

Good point

I was basing it on Galvan's reference to billions of armors, but maybe he made a mistake:

Originally posted by Galan007
Original strat... I like it!

My "vision" for Dr. Flobo is basically the OP pic. So yeah, Doom-esque armor(wouldn't be a Doom amalgam if it weren't included, tbh.)

As for speed-superiority: Zoom is indeed a great choice there(probably the best, actually), but when you factor in Dr. Flobo's ability to absorb the speed of millions/billions of clones during his prep phase(and if need be, share fractions of his augmented speed with specific clones at will), Zoom's "faasssterrrthaaannnyyyoouuu" status, um... Diminishes quite a bit, to say the least.

I like the hacking angle for sure. Doom's armor is also fortified with high-levels magics, though, which changes things quite a bit. I certainly wouldn't put it past Henshaw to hack the armor(given his Source Wall feat), but the question is if he can hack billionS of Doom-level armors before he is IMP'd into oblivion within the first attosecond of the battle..? Prolly not, imo, but I can be swayed here.

The mindrape angle is a great way to cover your bases, and against one Dr. Flobo it'd be borderline perfect. Against billionS of Flobo-minds(so Doom+Lobo), moving around at Wally(++)-speeds? Nah... Nate ain't that guy.

Yeah, my bad.

Someone asked if Dr. Flobo's clones also had Doom's armor, and I answered 'yes' not really thinking/caring much about it, because the armor(while nice to have) isn't really crucial to my strat anyway... In some cases it could actually hinder more than help.

But yeah, the clones have been nakey every time Lobo has spawned them, so that would also have to be their default here -- only the OG "Flobo-Prime" would go in with armor.

That somewhat nerfs the value of Henshaw.

Revising.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, my bad.

Someone asked if Dr. Flobo's clones also had Doom's armor, and I answered 'yes' not really thinking/caring much about it, because the armor(while nice to have) isn't really crucial to my strat anyway... In some cases it could actually hinder more than help.

But yeah, the clones have been nakey every time Lobo has spawned them, so that would also have to be their default here -- only the OG "Flobo-Prime" would go in with armor. In which case, my Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord's misdirection powers wouldn't necessarily even have to deal with Doom's armor defenses in the first place.

Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord could simply focus the misdirection powers on some/all of the blood-clones and amplify their egos into believing they actually are/ought to be the "prime" Dr. Flobo. Which is a status that could only be realistically accomplished by fighting over/donning the originally singular Dr. Flobo armor (especially if you're being influenced to think that). I mean, without the armor, you're undeniably just a mere nekkid blood-clone copy. Could any persona with the ego of Doctor Doom countenance that?

I'd argue, no.

Granted, Lobo's blood-clones appear to have no ego over being clones at least from my limited reading of Death Metal. Doctor Doom, however? Doom has created Doombots that superficially emulate his own ego and have ironically/inevitably turned on themselves. I respectfully submit that true Doom blood-clones would naturally be more vainly self-destructive. Enough so, at least, to present a natural exploit which could be amply capitalized by someone with the unparalleled misdirection powers of a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord.

Originally posted by Smurph
You misunderstand.

Physical attacks don't mean much to Shadow King.

I said physical AND OR magical attacks. That was a general statement to all amalgams. Shadow King isn't immune to magic.
You took the first part of the sentence and ignored the second part.

Lol
No one here is getting past the first hurdle. All the creativity in the world is useless if you start the fight completely frozen and stay that way for a long time.

Every character on the list begins vulnerable to either physical or magical forces-before their powers activate. That gives Flobo years to do whatever he wants to the statue.

Originally posted by ODG
This is why I doubled down on the misdirection abilities of Fantomex exponentially enhanced by Maxwell Lord. They could subtly influence "prime" Dr. Flobo or any/all of his blood clones into believing it's wiser to narrow the field before the non-Dr. Flobo opposition was truly eliminated in an act of self-sabotage. Because who would pose a bigger threat to Dr. Flobo than.... Dr. Flobo himself?

More overtly, the Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord amalgam could also misdirect all the Dr. Flobo clones into believing the battle was already over. Because it looks like we both agree that once Dr. Flobo believes the battle to be over, their ego will demand a "prime" Dr. Flobo rise above the rest, leading all of them FFA'ing btw themselves over who is "prime" Dr. Flobo. Oh there would most definitely be in-fighting afterwards... But initially the Flobo clones would target/beat/kill their primary opponent first(which is all that matters here.) After that was handled, they would likely commence with the in-fighting to assert some kind of weird narcissistic alpha dominance -- Lobo himself basically said as much:
https://ibb.co/9kwkx9KH

...But what the clones do to themselves after they've secured the 'w' is ultimately moot here.

Originally posted by Smurph
But it's not a tendril merged with Cybrow, is it? Shadow King forms one third of the amalgam. So Cybrow includes the full entity.

The spook collector gun is cool but I tend to think that trying to capture the essence of Cyborg Superman would just lead to Henshaw taking over the gun itself. I'm not sure there's tech in Marvel or DC that could feasibly "contain" him.

As to your last question, SK is certainly psi based. But as soon as he was attacking them from the astral plane or whatever, I think he's made metaphysical contact... which should be enough for Rogue's powers to kick in. And psi resistance won't help with that.

And then there's Henshaw's possession, which isn't psi based but tech based, and should work against the armors. HA! I see what you did there. MF lowkey trying to summon Exodia, lol. sly

In all honesty though, I don't know nearly enough about SK to to get into a serious discussion involving Cybrow. Any possible counters to your strat will have to come from someone else, unfortunately.

Only thing I would add is that the whole "ethereal" aspect of SK might not even matter to Dr. Flobo:
https://ibb.co/vCfyf302
https://ibb.co/Ngg4DPTK
https://ibb.co/spFw5h3D

...And if he can touch you, he can IMP you!

Originally posted by ODG
In which case, my Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord's misdirection powers wouldn't necessarily even have to deal with Doom's armor defenses in the first place.

Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord could simply focus the misdirection powers on some/all of the blood-clones and amplify their egos into believing they actually are/ought to be the "prime" Dr. Flobo. Which is a status that could only be realistically accomplished by fighting over/donning the originally singular Dr. Flobo armor (especially if you're being influenced to think that). I mean, without the armor, you're undeniably just a mere nekkid blood-clone copy. Could any persona with the ego of Doctor Doom countenance that?

I'd argue, no.

Granted, Lobo's blood-clones appear to have no ego over being clones at least from my limited reading of Death Metal. Doctor Doom, however? Doom has created Doombots that superficially emulate his own ego and have ironically/inevitably turned on themselves. I respectfully submit that true Doom blood-clones would naturally be more vainly self-destructive. Enough so, at least, to present a natural exploit which could be amply capitalized by someone with the unparalleled misdirection powers of a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord.

The blood clones would be frozen from the start since Prime Flobo already stole their speed, making them useless here.

Also, starting with multiple characters not listed in the OP likely violates the "no outside help" rule. Flobo can create the clones, steal their speed, and discard them before the fight begins without breaking any rules. This is Dr. Flobo vs. your amalgam, not Flobo and his clones vs. your amalgam.

Finally, no amalgam will work if they start frozen and remain vulnerable to physical or magical forces. You need an amalgam that either won't be frozen at the start or is immune to both physical and magical forces before activating their powers - no combination of the listed characters fit that 2nd criterion.

Originally posted by h1a8
The blood clones would be frozen from the start since Prime Flobo already stole their speed, making them useless here. You're misunderstanding my strat.

Dr. Flobo only needs to steal the speed of 3-4 clones, and he's already faster than Zoom. That said, even if Flobo absorbed the speed of millions of clones, I'd still have billionS of clones leftover(conservatively) to fight in the battle itself.

So yes, a vast army of fully-powered Flobo clones is very much in play here.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, starting with multiple characters not listed in the OP likely violates the "no outside help" rule. Flobo can create the clones, steal their speed, and discard them before the fight begins without breaking any rules. This is Dr. Flobo vs. your amalgam, not Flobo and his clones vs. your amalgam. Now now. Just because Dr. Flobo is cartoonishly broken under these conditions, doesn't mean you have to start trying to nitpick at the rules.

Also, it's not like Dr. Flobo is using his prep phase to travel to the 5th dimension and recruit Mxy or w/e. All the help he's getting in this battle is literally coming from himself.

Originally posted by ODG
Granted, Lobo's blood-clones appear to have no ego over being clones at least from my limited reading of Death Metal.

If nothing else, it further solidifies that the clones will prioritize beating their opponent over beating themselves.

Originally posted by Galan007
Oh there would most definitely be in-fighting afterwards... But initially the Flobo clones would target/beat/kill their primary opponent first(which is all that matters here.) After that was handled, they would likely commence with the in-fighting to assert some kind of weird narcissistic alpha dominance -- Lobo himself basically said as much:
https://ibb.co/9kwkx9KH It seems we both agree there would be in-fighting due to Doom's ego. And based on the scans you just posted, there would be in-fighting even due to Lobo's ego. I honestly thought that Lobo was self-aware enough to simply not care about a clone scenario and that would blunt Doom's ego. But, no, it appears that Lobo's personality would only enhance their conglomerated self-conceit.

Now I get that the point of your scan was to show that despite Lobo's self-conceit, he'd resolve himself to fight external foes before himsel(ves). But Dr. Flobo isn't simply Lobo, right? He's also Doctor Doom. There's a difference, no? Now, while I think I am fairly parsing the nuances of character-personalities, if you think I'm begging the question to distract from powersets, fine.

But if you think that, then our controversy should boil down to whether a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord's misdirection powers could afflict Dr. Flobo and/or his blood-clones and exploit their self-destructive vanity or not.

You insist the infighting would only happen after killing Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord. That seems arbitrary. Indeed, an obvious misdirection scenario that could be imposed is making them think the external battle is over, leaving them to gloat/fight amongst themselves into oblivion while Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord stands back.

Originally posted by h1a8
I said physical AND OR magical attacks. That was a general statement to all amalgams. Shadow King isn't immune to magic.
You took the first part of the sentence and ignored the second part. I'm not ignoring it, I'm just keeping the onus where it belongs. Someone's welcome to argue that Flobo can magically attack Shadow King, but they should argue it and prove it.

If the solution is to magically attack him on the astral plane (ie Strange's magical telepathy and magical astral projection), then I think there is actually a lot of evidence that speed advantages do not translate 1:1. Or possibly at all.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're misunderstanding my strat.

Dr. Flobo only needs to steal the speed of 3-4 clones, and he's already faster than Zoom. That said, even if Flobo absorbed the speed of millions of clones, I'd still have billionS of clones leftover(conservatively) to fight in the battle itself.

So yes, a vast army of fully-powered Flobo clones is very much in play here.

Now now. Just because Dr. Flobo is cartoonishly broken under these conditions, doesn't mean you have to start trying to nitpick at the rules.

Also, it's not like Dr. Flobo is using his prep phase to travel to the 5th dimension and recruit Mxy or w/e. All the help he's getting in this battle is literally coming from himself.
Not trying to nitpick the rules, but I may have misunderstood them when considering the spirit of the topic.

Honest question:
With prep time, is a character only allowed to bring others into the fight if they can create them on their own during prep?

Originally posted by ODG
It seems we both agree there would be in-fighting due to Doom's ego. And based on the scans you just posted, there would be in-fighting even due to Lobo's ego. I honestly thought that Lobo was self-aware enough to simply not care about a clone scenario and that would blunt Doom's ego. But, no, it appears that Lobo's personality would only enhance their conglomerated self-conceit.

Now I get that the point of your scan was to show that despite Lobo's self-conceit, he'd resolve himself to fight external foes before himsel(ves). But Dr. Flobo isn't simply Lobo, right? He's also Doctor Doom. There's a difference, no? Now, while I think I am fairly parsing the nuances of character-personalities, if you think I'm begging the question to distract from powersets, fine.

But if you think that, then our controversy should boil down to whether a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord's misdirection powers could afflict Dr. Flobo and/or his blood-clones and exploit their self-destructive vanity or not.

You insist the infighting would only happen after killing Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord. That seems arbitrary. Indeed, an obvious misdirection scenario that could be imposed is making them think the external battle is over, leaving them to gloat/fight amongst themselves into oblivion while Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord stands back. So for this reason the other amalgam I was contemplating is Shadow King + Meggan. And I was debating which 3rd to add.

Because SK can body hop and shrug off the host dying. And Meggan can exist as part of the environment, so I guess even more options for where to hop consciousness into. But more importantly, Meggan's empathy control should be enough to *push* the clones into all out warfare.

It's specifically not psi and shouldn't be negated by existing defenses. It should tap into Czarnian rage. As she did to the demons in hell:

https://i.ibb.co/twpcFMM1/IMG-2396.png

Originally posted by ODG
It seems we both agree there would be in-fighting due to Doom's ego. And based on the scans you just posted, there would be in-fighting even due to Lobo's ego. I honestly thought that Lobo was self-aware enough to simply not care about a clone scenario and that would blunt Doom's ego. But, no, it appears that Lobo's personality would only enhance their conglomerated self-conceit. Lobo: "After they're done fraggin' those losers, they'll probably turn on each other..."

So no, I do not think in-fighting would be an issue at all during the battle itself(just like it wasn't a problem during Death Metal.)

Originally posted by ODG
But Dr. Flobo isn't simply Lobo, right? He's also Doctor Doom. There's a difference, no? Now, while I think I am fairly parsing the nuances of character-personalities, if you think I'm begging the question to distract from powersets, fine.

But if you think that, then our controversy should boil down to whether a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord's misdirection powers could afflict Dr. Flobo and/or his blood-clones and exploit their self-destructive vanity or not.

You insist the infighting would only happen after killing Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord. That seems arbitrary. Doom is a narcissist, to be sure. But is he such a single-minded buffoon that he would knowingly/willingly crush his own chances at victory... By opting to fight himself instead of his actual opponent? Definitely not, imo. After all, if Dr. Flobo beats himself before he beats his opponent, then he simply can't win. And Doom would never prioritize defeat over victory.

Originally posted by ODG
Indeed, an obvious misdirection scenario that could be imposed is making them think the external battle is over, leaving them to gloat/fight amongst themselves into oblivion while Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord stands back. Frankly, I don't think your amalgam would get a chance to pull any of this off. Even Barry would be a statue in comparison to my prepped/amped Dr. Flobo, and without an upper-echelon HF(or raw durability) to speak of, your amalgam would fall victim to IMP-spam or somesuch before he could even process that the battle had started.

Originally posted by h1a8
Honest question:
With prep time, is a character only allowed to bring others into the fight if they can create them on their own during prep? In Lobo's case, blood-cloning is part of his natural biology. Using one's own biology to one's own advantage is perfectly acceptable. That's technically what every superhero does anyway -- Dr. Flobo just takes it to the extreme under these conditions, obvs.

Now if he was trying to recruit true outside help during the prep phase(ie. calling in the Justice League or w/e), that would be a violation of the rules.

Originally posted by Smurph
But more importantly, Meggan's empathy control should be enough to *push* the clones into all out warfare.

It's specifically not psi and shouldn't be negated by existing defenses. It should tap into Czarnian rage. As she did to the demons in hell:

https://i.ibb.co/twpcFMM1/IMG-2396.png Question:
Even if this worked, and you nudged Dr. Flobo into a rage, doesn't it also have the potential to backfire heavily? ie. You'd still have a vast army of hyper-amped Flobo clones attacking you, except now they'd be bloodlusted as well. mmm

Originally posted by Galan007
Lobo: "After they're done fraggin' those losers, they'll probably turn on each other..."

So no, I do not think in-fighting would be an issue at all during the battle itself(just like it wasn't a problem during Death Metal.) Let me repeat myself: what if Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord used their misdirection powers on them during the battle itself?Originally posted by Galan007
Frankly, I don't think your amalgam would get a chance to pull any of this off. Even Barry would be a statue in comparison to my prepped/amped Dr. Flobo This appears to be a wholly separate hill for you to plant your flag upon to avoid the considerations set forth. In which case, I still respectfully disagree. Barry Allen has basically been the Speed Force, on-panel. That's why I chose him, after all. It's possible he could negate, counter, exploit, the unfettered abuse of the Speedforce being proposed here.

But let's set aside the chicken-and-egg notion of the Speedforce/Barry Allen.

Modern Flash comics explore the Speedforce going awry because the Speedforce isn't some simple static force to be utilized without consequence. If you abuse it, you risk catastrophe. So it's arguable that the strategy of Dr. Flobo arrogantly utilizing the Speedforce via infinite blood-cloning w/o limits could prove utterly self-catastrophic. Taken another step further, Doom & Lobo's combined ego might even unintentionally sabotage Wally's own self-limiters that would assert measured control over the Speedforce.

Think Mister Sinister & Quicksilver's combined arrogant/impetuous egos compromising Jean Grey's measured (but tenuous) control over the Phoenixforce leading to a self-conflagration. That might happen as a simple consequence of that amalgam, right?

But what if you had a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord pushing those exact buttons with adroit misdirection?

Originally posted by ODG
Let me repeat myself: what if Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord used their misdirection powers on them during the battle itself? This appears to be a wholly separate hill for you to plant your flag upon to avoid the considerations set forth. In which case, I still respectfully disagree. Barry Allen has basically been the Speed Force, on-panel. That's why I chose him, after all. It's possible he could negate, counter, exploit, the unfettered abuse of the Speedforce being proposed here.

But let's set aside the chicken-and-egg notion of the Speedforce/Barry Allen.

Modern Flash comics explore the Speedforce going awry because the Speedforce isn't some simple static force to be utilized without consequence. If you abuse it, you risk catastrophe. So it's arguable that the strategy of Dr. Flobo arrogantly utilizing the Speedforce via infinite blood-cloning w/o limits could prove utterly self-catastrophic. Taken another step further, Doom & Lobo's combined ego might even unintentionally sabotage Wally's own self-limiters that would assert measured control over the Speedforce.

Think Mister Sinister & Quicksilver's combined arrogant/impetuous egos compromising Jean Grey's measured (but tenuous) control over the Phoenixforce leading to a self-conflagration. That might happen as a simple consequence of that amalgam, right?

But what if you had a Speedforce Fantomexwell-Lord pushing those exact buttons with adroit misdirection? Barry and Wally are both high-level masters/users of the Speed Force, so in a general "Speed Force manipulation-off" or w/e, I think it'd be a relative wash between them. The difference, however, is that Dr. Flobo's mastery of the SF is further backed by the indomitable willpower/mental fortitude of Lobo+Doom, which should make him virtually immune to any SF phuckery from Barry, imo... If anything, it'd be more realistic for Flobo to muck with your amalgam's SF instead, but that's neither here nor there and an entirely different discussion.

See, you're assuming the minds of Lobo and Doom would meld in a bad way. I disagree. Personally, I think it would only bring out the best of them, strategically. Would Flobo be the worst kind of douchebag imaginable personality-wise? Absolutely. Would he still retain an immense desire to beat his opponent first and foremost? Undoubtedly. As mentioned, neither Doom or Lobo would ever knowingly prioritize defeat over victory. The 'w' itself(against his opponent) would come first; the in-fighting would come second(which makes it irrelevant here), imo.

That's the thing: absorbing the speed of millions/billions/infinities of clones isn't a prerequisite in order to render even the likes of Zoom a statue(nvm Barry) -- a handful will do just fine. How much tampering Flobo could do to the SF before everything crumbled is virtually unknown, but it takes a lot. Regardless, with Wally's abundance of high-level knowledge/history regarding the SF specifically + the ability to calc infinite scenarios almost instantaneously + Doom's(and Lobo's, tbh) vast strategical minds, Dr. Flobo would absolutely know how much was too much. Shouldn't be a problem.

So yeah, an amped/prepped Dr. Flobo just blitzes your fossilized Fantomexwell-Lord at the onset, ftw, imo.

What if all of that was just an illusion from Fantomex

Originally posted by Galan007
Question:
Even if this worked, and you nudged Dr. Flobo into a rage, doesn't it also have the potential to backfire heavily? ie. You'd still have a vast army of hyper-amped Flobo clones attacking you, except now they'd be bloodlusted as well. mmm That's why you need a character with really great passive defense, even as against speedsters.

You could merge, say, SK with Henshaw and Jared Stevens and have a character that's pretty much impossible for Flobo to contain or kill. The trick is figuring out if you can sub out one of those for a character who provides the offense needed to either take out Flobo prime or turn his army against him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What if all of that was just an illusion from Fantomex Are his abilities passive? Can't remember.

No Charlie's powers are thought based and still need to be "activated" I believe.

Completed unrelated, but it would also be cool if you could have Dr Flobo use magic or whatever to take control of his clones so they all follow his will alone and wouldn't even feel the urge to fight each other anyways.

Originally posted by Galan007
Are his abilities passive? Can't remember.

It's difficult to say, as we don't always see it 'active', so to speak. When the illusion starts, we don't see.

Originally posted by Smurph
That's why you need a character with really great passive defense, even as against speedsters.

You could merge, say, SK with Henshaw and Jared Stevens and have a character that's pretty much impossible for Flobo to contain or kill. The trick is figuring out if you can sub out one of those for a character who provides the offense needed to either take out Flobo prime or turn his army against him.

You could just stab Flobo Prime:

https://i.postimg.cc/bvMz7R4h/Fate-011-03.jpg. He'll never miss.

Originally posted by Galan007
Only thing I would add is that the whole "ethereal" aspect of SK might not even matter to Dr. Flobo:
https://ibb.co/vCfyf302
https://ibb.co/Ngg4DPTK
https://ibb.co/spFw5h3D

...And if he can touch you, he can IMP you! i know you're joking, but this is kinda true.

if lobo's toon force allowed for him to physically touch shadow king, then he could indeed imp him. what that does to shadow king's ethereal form i do not know.

Originally posted by Infinaut616
Completed unrelated, but it would also be cool if you could have Dr Flobo use magic or whatever to take control of his clones so they all follow his will alone and wouldn't even feel the urge to fight each other anyways. That has pros and cons, though. What happens to the mind-controlled clones if that 'link' were severed, for example?

No, for this strat I prefer the clones as they are: an absolutely identical copy of the original(aside from the random "one in a billion" strandcasts/defects you might get.) IOW, they are, quite literally, you: same powers, same memories, same mannerisms, same goals, same everything(the clone is you, you are the clone. Literally.) As such, each and every clone in Dr. Flobo's army is a fully independent being, with the same initial objective: ie. "Frag the other amalgam"... And since we know the clones will work together long enough to achieve their primary goal, mutual cooperation between them shouldn't be an issue where the battle itself is concerned. And that's... Really all I need from them in this scenario.

That way I also don't have to rely on some esoteric spell/link from one Dr. Flobo holding the entire strat together. With my strat, billions of clones(or even "Flobo-Prime" can die, and it ultimately doesn't matter at all. /Flobo is

Your idea would be better if my objective were to overrun the universe with clones, and keep it that way long-term(to prevent in-fighting.)

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's difficult to say, as we don't always see it 'active', so to speak. When the illusion starts, we don't see. And that would be his amalgam's problem, imo. Even with Barry-level speed, Fantomexwell-Lord would still be a statue relative to a prepped/amped Dr. Flobo. Because of this, he would never get the opportunity to activate his power/strategy before Dr. Flobo IMP'd him to a pulp, imo.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
i know you're joking, but this is kinda true.

if lobo's toon force allowed for him to physically touch shadow king, then he could indeed imp him. what that does to shadow king's ethereal form i do not know. If Lobo's haxx enabled Dr. Flobo to treat SK's ethereal form as though it were a physical entity, this is what happens:
https://ibb.co/39nzJcFr
*Except on a never-ending loop for the duration of the battle.

@Smurph

Regarding your multiversal Shadow King embodiment strat: If you're going that route(and since I don't know enough to debate SK's capabilities otherwise), then I guess it's finally time to pull out the big guns ...*uncomfortable pause*]... Dr. Flobo will have direct access to the Ultimate Nullifier during his prep phase *thx Doom*:
https://ibb.co/rR8mMzSp

On top of that, Dr. Flobo has direct access to The Hall of Lost and Found at the JL Watchtower as well *thx Wally*. Aside from the obvious, items like the Cosmic Treadmill and/or Worlogog could also allow for scenarios like this to unfold:

https://i.ibb.co/rGYLqnBk/001.jpg

ie. Dr. Flobo could theoretically use time shenanigans to endlessly duplicate/spam every single relic he has immediate access to(*if needed, for some reason)... And any thought-based weapons(like the UN) are being fueled by the indomitable will and unparalleled god-brain of Doom+Lobo(IOW, bound to be successful.)


...So yeah, I couldn't think of a more unbeatable amalgam under these conditions. Personally, I wouldn't have Dr. Flobo use the aforementioned resources unless absolutely necessary. That's no fun, and you can't really counter an "OTK" like that(especially with unbalanced prep.)

This thread is basically The Kobayashi Maru of amalgam strats.

https://media.tenor.com/Cskevr3HiS0AAAAM/im-done-so-done.gif

Originally posted by Galan007
In Lobo's case, blood-cloning is part of his natural biology. Using one's own biology to one's own advantage is perfectly acceptable. That's technically what every superhero does anyway -- Dr. Flobo just takes it to the extreme under these conditions, obvs.

Now if he was trying to recruit true outside help during the prep phase(ie. calling in the Justice League or w/e), that would be a violation of the rules. what about making clones from one's own DNA? Is that allowed?

I mean, isn't that what Lobo's doing?

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm not ignoring it, I'm just keeping the onus where it belongs. Someone's welcome to argue that Flobo can magically attack Shadow King, but they should argue it and prove it.

If the solution is to magically attack him on the astral plane (ie Strange's magical telepathy and magical astral projection), then I think there is actually a lot of evidence that speed advantages do not translate 1:1. Or possibly at all.

A magical spell can seal, absorb, and or contain him.
Flobo can cast the spell in less than an attosecond.

Originally posted by Galan007
I mean, isn't that what Lobo's doing?

I meant in a lab or preparation room. For example, Thanos has made clones of himself multiple times.

Originally posted by Galan007
@Smurph

Regarding your multiversal Shadow King embodiment strat: If you're going that route(and since I don't know enough to debate SK's capabilities otherwise), then I guess it's finally time to pull out the big guns ...*uncomfortable pause*]... Dr. Flobo will have direct access to the Ultimate Nullifier during his prep phase *thx Doom*:
https://ibb.co/rR8mMzSp

On top of that, Dr. Flobo has direct access to The Hall of Lost and Found at the JL Watchtower as well *thx Wally*. Aside from the obvious, items like the Cosmic Treadmill and/or Worlogog could also allow for scenarios like this to unfold:

https://i.ibb.co/rGYLqnBk/001.jpg

ie. Dr. Flobo could theoretically use time shenanigans to endlessly duplicate/spam every single relic he has immediate access to(*if needed, for some reason)... And any thought-based weapons(like the UN) are being fueled by the indomitable will and unparalleled god-brain of Doom+Lobo(IOW, bound to be successful.)


...So yeah, I couldn't think of a more unbeatable amalgam under these conditions. Personally, I wouldn't have Dr. Flobo use the aforementioned resources unless absolutely necessary. That's no fun, and you can't really counter an "OTK" like that(especially with unbalanced prep.)

This thread is basically The Kobayashi Maru of amalgam strats. Hmm

Well, that seems mostly unbearable...

... although if there was one character who might be simply immune to Nullifier and time shenanigans (and that's a big if, tbf), it would be Meggan. For what that's worth.

https://i.ibb.co/fjr4rZp/IMG-2403.jpg

Jamie Braddock and the UN are two different things, but in theory if she's just sort of snipped her quantum strings then...

Originally posted by h1a8
A magical spell can seal, absorb, and or contain him.
Flobo can cast the spell in less than an attosecond. Great. Which spell? Let's see some scans.

Originally posted by Galan007
And that would be his amalgam's problem, imo. Even with Barry-level speed, Fantomexwell-Lord would still be a statue relative to a prepped/amped Dr. Flobo. Because of this, he would never get the opportunity to activate his power/strategy before Dr. Flobo IMP'd him to a pulp, imo.

Yes, you assumes that Fantomex's powers need to activate, though. I am saying it can be argued either way, as comics never show 'this is before the illusion/this is after the illusion activates'.

I am liking how much of my BZs are coming into play here, though. Lobo, Wally, Aquarian, Fate, Fantomex - all characters I have used in BZs, using tactics (clone/speedsteal Wallys, flooding the field with Lobos, using pwoer negation from Aquarian etc) that I argued. Hell, there may even be hitherto unseen tactics that Galan has hidden up his sleeve, from my BZ posts (exploding numbers!) that people should check out....

Originally posted by Smurph
Great. Which spell? Let's see some scans.

Doom possesses spells capable of sealing entities. You must prove that the Shadow King is immune to them.

Also, he can bfred.

Which spells are these, I think is what Smurph says. You say he has these spells; ok, what are they like?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which spells are these, I think is what Smurph says. You say he has these spells; ok, what are they like? The ones Dr Strange usually use. Doom is sorcerer Supreme in this thread right?

Probably not, as Galan is using the Doom that rivals Dr Strange (see OP). Sorcerer Supreme Doom outclasses Strange.

Moreover, you'd still need to showcase what spells lol. And transference of titles doesn't mean transference of knowledge AFAIK, but I guess you'd have to prove that tangent.

Originally posted by h1a8
Doom possesses spells capable of sealing entities. You must prove that the Shadow King is immune to them.

Also, he can bfred. I can't prove that SK is immune to something without you showing what the thing is.

With other posters I could have a conversation in good faith about possible spells that Doom might know, but you don't argue in good faith. You will waste people's time shifting the burden of proof wherever possible while asserting your notions as fact.

So let's see the sealing spells, so we can talk about their applicability to Shadow King.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Probably not, as Galan is using the Doom that rivals Dr Strange (see OP). Sorcerer Supreme Doom outclasses Strange.

Moreover, you'd still need to showcase what spells lol. And transference of titles doesn't mean transference of knowledge AFAIK, but I guess you'd have to prove that tangent.

I thought Sorcerer Supreme was just a title.

Well, if it's more than that, Strange still retains knowledge of all the spells he's ever used. He can still banish and seal entities, though they might not be as effective without full backing from those mystical gods.

Strange/Doom can banish or send others to other dimensions, bind them with mystic bands, etc