Are there any villains you agree with?

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SnakeEyes
Do you ever agree with a villains motives (EU or the movies) and if so who are they? wink

Morridini
The Emperor.

He DID bring peace to the galaxy (even though it was because of him there was war in the first place). And there were no need for the Jedi, look at how pathetic the common Jedi Knight/Master was, only a handful of them would have been worth keeping.

Lil Krueger
^ Im with him..

Darth Hawkeye
I like the idea Revan and Malak had. I wish the republic would of been wiped out for good they should of concentrated on the main leaders and killed them off aren't you tired of hearing about the REPUBLIC's bullcrap and there weak army JUST DIE ALRDY. GO EMPIRE

InsaneNoodlyGuy
I believe that (and yeah, blatantly stealing from Vergere here) that there is no Dark Side and the so called skills of that name are closer to the true force because the Dark Siders are being true to their own feelings, not denying them.

Darth_Janus
I thought it was quite obvious that darksiders lie to themselves, saying they are being true to themselves in order to justify the acts of hate and aggression that they unleash on the world.

And Sidious did NOT bring peace... he ushered in a new age of suffering and infighting, as slavery was widely practiced, worlds subjugated and tormented on his rule... rebellion at every corner. As a result of Sidious' machinations, the most peaceful planet in the known galaxy was destroyed.

Bring peace my ass.

As for Malak, he was a butcher and nothing more. He had no more ambition save make the galaxy his and if possibly, crush it in the process. Revan, however, uses the morality of a field general in that "anything I have to use I will use, just to win." I can't say I agree with him, but if his actions prove to be for the better of the Republic, then perhaps he is the only villain I agree with.

Lord Caltor
jango fett... he fought partly for his mando friends which the jedi whiped out which i agree with

revan he turned on the republic to save it

InsaneNoodlyGuy
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I thought it was quite obvious that darksiders lie to themselves, saying they are being true to themselves in order to justify the acts of hate and aggression that they unleash on the world.


Arent they though? What is easier? To hate, fear and attack, or to purge, to remain tranquil and calm? To feel, to lust, to want, or to deny, to abstain, to put aside? What is truer to basic nature?

The Jedi claim to serve the forces will, but if the force is all living things, the sith and their emotions make them closer to the true force then the Jedi. Note I don't say perfect. The sith are massivly flawed in several ways, namely that they disrupt balance with their excess, though that is a a common enough problem in nature. Perfect harmony is less seen.

Some would say Anakin fell from the light side despite his immense force power. I'd say he failed because of it.

Arbiter
Count Dooku:
He saw corruption in the Senate and he wanted it changed.

Lord Matreid
His master caused most of that corruption...

InsaneNoodlyGuy
Palpatine didn't make the Old Republic as bad as it was. We saw it's decline in Episode I, while he was still but a humble Nabooian senator. He just took advantage of what he saw as a golden opportunity. I'd imagine the Senate had been in decline for decades.

HimoKun
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
I believe that (and yeah, blatantly stealing from Vergere here) that there is no Dark Side and the so called skills of that name are closer to the true force because the Dark Siders are being true to their own feelings, not denying them.

Holy shit I already hate you. GL's whole idea of Star Wars is based off of Dark Side and Light Side. So shove that up your ass.

Tangible God
Originally posted by HimoKun
Holy shit I already hate you. GL's whole idea of Star Wars is based off of Dark Side and Light Side. So shove that up your ass. LMAO! Yeah, NJO sux moose testicles.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
Arent they though? What is easier? To hate, fear and attack, or to purge, to remain tranquil and calm? To feel, to lust, to want, or to deny, to abstain, to put aside? What is truer to basic nature?

The Jedi claim to serve the forces will, but if the force is all living things, the sith and their emotions make them closer to the true force then the Jedi. Note I don't say perfect. The sith are massivly flawed in several ways, namely that they disrupt balance with their excess, though that is a a common enough problem in nature. Perfect harmony is less seen.

Some would say Anakin fell from the light side despite his immense force power. I'd say he failed because of it.

Easier is not neccessarily better. Being a Jedi requires self control and discipline. Being a Sith requires being little more than an animal. Whereas Jedi seek to find balance and harmony with all living things and strive for perfection in being, Sith and darksiders seek to dominate all living things and strive for perfection in destruction.

The Jedi claim to serve the Force's will as they see it, and the Sith care nothing for the will of the Force and only for themselves. Which sounds more reasonable to you... The collected teachings and learnings of a good-aligned society that has spent thousands upon thousands of years trying to bring good to all... Or delve into the quick and easy way of the Sith... only to die a short, miserable death at the hands of someone you may have known or trusted?

The Sith are not any closer to perfection in being by simply giving in to their base, inner natures. If anything, they are forsaking their logical brain, something only an advanced sentient (human or otherwise) actually has control of. It's not as if people are just mynocks flying around, chewing on power cables because they have instinct to do so. Human beings (and in SW, other sentients) possess a mind that is capable of obstract thinking and rational thought. The mind craves things that make sense, but in order to find those things one must not let the truth be drowned out by the primal urges.

So in short, the villains of Star Wars are incapable of being true to themselves and to the universe as a whole, because they are negatively-driven beasts in a sentient's skin. Whereas the Jedi are enlightened sentients who value themselves and others.

Ushgarak
Man, I can hear GL crying...

In Star Wars, the bad guys are EVIL. That is the point. If you agree with them... that is a very worrying statement about you.

Arbiter
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Man, I can hear GL crying...

In Star Wars, the bad guys are EVIL. That is the point. If you agree with them... that is a very worrying statement about you.
But Dooku was trying to remove corruption from the Senate and Anakin was fighting for someone he loved.

Captain REX
Dooku and Palpatine were creating that corruption, and Anakin slaughtered hundreds of innocents. no expression

darthrevan89
The one thing about KOTOR that confused me was, Kreia stated that, Revan unlike the other Sith was true to himself never truly fell (I could be wrong since its sorta hard to read diologue files).

xxxpoppunker182
well i agree with revan on the i'm gonna do what i want to and if you're gonna try and stop me then try. i think he had a good punk attitude and thats what i'm all about do what you want to and he was tryin to save the galaxy as his overall goal.

and boba he had the same kinda attitude.

InsaneNoodlyGuy
As the Majority of the Galaxy does not involve sentients, but rather the hard rules of nature (Strong survive, weak perish/suffer by the strong). If anything, enlightened sentients who value themselves and others are closer to being unnatural. Having people you care about sure, but caring about everybody? I won't deny that if it worked we'd have a perfect Utopia, but did it work for the Republic? Nope. It fell apart because of it's own massive corrpution (which would have to around long before Palpatine got to work) allowing Palpatine to get as far as he did. He made things much worse once he got in office, of course, but he was just the infection on an already open and bleeding mortal wound.

Easier isn't better, no. The question is why is it easier. And why indeed? Because it is consistent with sentient nature. If it wasn't a natural state, it wouldn't be so damn easy.

Jedi claim to serve the force. But force has no preferance toward Good and Evil. These are sentient concepts. If it did prefer "Good", it wouldn't let the sith be so damn strong. It sure as hell wouldn't let "the balance" be restored by killing off everybody and starting anew.

Great Vengeance
I agree with kreia, the force is the puppet master behind the events of star wars and all kreia wanted to do was free everyone from their slave master.

darthrevan89
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I agree with kreia, the force is the puppet master behind the events of star wars and all kreia wanted to do was free everyone from their slave master.

That is an odd viewpoint to take.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
As the Majority of the Galaxy does not involve sentients, but rather the hard rules of nature (Strong survive, weak perish/suffer by the strong). If anything, enlightened sentients who value themselves and others are closer to being unnatural. Having people you care about sure, but caring about everybody? I won't deny that if it worked we'd have a perfect Utopia, but did it work for the Republic? Nope. It fell apart because of it's own massive corrpution (which would have to around long before Palpatine got to work) allowing Palpatine to get as far as he did. He made things much worse once he got in office, of course, but he was just the infection on an already open and bleeding mortal wound.

Easier isn't better, no. The question is why is it easier. And why indeed? Because it is consistent with sentient nature. If it wasn't a natural state, it wouldn't be so damn easy.

Jedi claim to serve the force. But force has no preferance toward Good and Evil. These are sentient concepts. If it did prefer "Good", it wouldn't let the sith be so damn strong. It sure as hell wouldn't let "the balance" be restored by killing off everybody and starting anew.

The Force is created and used by all living things. Living things. And those living things that are on a higher evolutionary level are capable of rational thought. The ideas of good and evil exist to them, whereas lower beasts do not have such luxuries.

But I think you're missing the point. Darksiders are immoral. And morality is about what we -should- do in life, not what -is- in life. Science tells us what is. Ethics and morality tell us what should be. Keep that in mind. The Jedi are working towards something that may never come. But they are doing their part in a world that apparently needs every good soul it can get. It's interesting to note that GL's world has the Order which is good and it is diverse. That is, even alien cultures who grew up fundamentally different eventually reach similar reasoning when it comes to a higher good.

But then, I suppose, all beasts and Sith are the same too. Both have reached a decision regarding what they want, and it's tangible goods versus metaphysical good.

Now... about the hard rules of nature. They exist. And in lower beasts, there is no getting around that. A wolf cannot plant a farm. A jackal cannot build a home. Lower creatures do not have the abilities we possess. And that is why they live their lifestyles: quick, brutal, and amoral.

But a human being can build a home, thus it need not neccessarily be territorial. A human being can grow plants and obstain from killing. Read that again. A human being can obstain. We have those options. Thus, we should not be so quick to assume our natures and our futures lie in the black and white of nature. Our minds are advanced enough to have created and recognized such aspects as good and evil. If we were meant to live as beasts, we would not have such novelties. If you have learned -anything- from nature, you realize that creatures develop towards their own best interests. They adapt and learn to interact rather harmoniously with their environment. (On a sidenote, human beings are less than harmonious with their surroundings, because they see as the Sith do... they see only tangible goods, in in doing so they are slowly ruining this world around us... OUr very livelihood.)

But human beings, having knowledge of right and wrong, often cannot realize that they DO have such knowledge. Thus come the Jedi- an Order of sentients striving to flesh out the knowledge that is ingrained in us. To say that acting in the ways of the Sith or those of the dark side persuasion is closer to one's nature is insinuating that people are inherently evil. And that is a poor conclusion to come to in life.

xxxpoppunker182
but man is inherently evil. its portrayed in almost everything like lord of the flies for one example.

xxxpoppunker182
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
but man is inherently evil. its portrayed in almost everything like lord of the flies for one example.It blows but it's like you said we can obstain and and have the mental abilities to know good and evil so we don't have to be evil.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
but man is inherently evil. its portrayed in almost everything like lord of the flies for one example.

What's your proof that man in inherently evil, other than a movie called Lord of the Flies? If man was inherently evil, we would all be Sith, and morality would not exist.

Ushgarak
The Jedi never claim the Force is inherently good. When has that ever been said?

They do good because doing good is the right thing to do, not because it is commanded by the Force. The Force is the means of their powers and the means by which they gain their wisdom and understanding; it may lead you to an understanding OF good and evil but it is not the source of it!

Star Wars is a simple morality tale of good and evil. If you want a mixed morality story, go chose another sci-fi, because you are way out of place here. Bad guys are bad guys and there is no justification for them.

Dooku, btw, was not trying to root out corruption; he was using corruption as an excuse for his own power scheming,. Anakin, meanwhile, may have been led down the road to evil by his love, but a. that is NOT a moral justification for mass murder and b. it's a lie anyway. It was his fear of losing her he was acting on- a selfish one. He didn't want to feel like how he did when he lost his mother. GL is showing how easy it is to become evil in such a fashion.

xxxpoppunker182
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
What's your proof that man in inherently evil, other than a movie called Lord of the Flies? If man was inherently evil, we would all be Sith, and morality would not exist.

well i mean it is easier to be the jackass and be mean and make fun of someone then stand up for him/her. if that makes sense.

like if there arent anyrules no laws nothing what do you think will happen? who do you tink the ones "ontop" of everything would be.

also if you're a christian or a catholic adam took the apple from the snake even though god said not to. i'm really sorry i'm tryin to think of the best way to say it and i just can't think of it i'll repost when i do.

Darth_Janus
You do that. I think it was already covered by me, and if not me, Ush pretty much reiterated the point here.

Darth Hawkeye
Dont let me get into an argue but man isnt 100 percent evil but even a christian sins for evil, evil seems to harsh maybe dark oh wait the darkside. Ok no one qoute me on this cause im too lazy to be a geek or i would

SnakeEyes
I agree with what Ushgarak said above...

Morridini
Originally posted by Ushgarak
In Star Wars, the bad guys are EVIL. That is the point. If you agree with them... that is a very worrying statement about you.


Evil is merely a point of view. So what the bad guys do doesn't necessarily be evil in everyones eyes.

Like some would say that what happened 11th September 2001 (or was it 2000?) was evil, other will say it was justice.

Darth L. Dipsit
Well, I think that sometimes it is necessary to transcend the idea of good versus evil when it comes to certain aspects of SW, as the Sith does not mean evil - it is just a different way of using the Force that often leads to anger and hatred due to simple degeneration (this is what has been indicated to me by KOTOR and the books and movies). Sith just means that one uses one's feelings (emotional) to guide their use of the Force. This means love or attachment, not just anger. A Sith could hypothetically never become hateful if he or she maintained the original conditions of his or her control of the Force. The Jedi rely on objectivity and lack of emotional involvement to guide their use of the Force. This is because all Jedi know that every one of them - even Jedi like Master Yoda - would degenerate to hatred if any of them became attached to something or loved someone or felt strongly about anything.

But that is just SW Force principal - and Ushgarak is right about the good versus evil point as a plot element. Perhaps, though, xxxpoppunker182 is trying to distance himself from the situation of real life and trying to be brutally frank - sometimes it requires a great amount of self-control to do the right thing, at least for me. Or perhaps I do not understand the situation fully. That is simply what I believe from what has been written.

Peace be with you all.

InsaneNoodlyGuy
No Dipshit (never though It' dbe saying that and meaning no insult), the sith embrace the dark side while rejecting the light. A sith couldn't stay away from hate, they are trained in it just as the Jedi are trained to avoid it.

I concede the sith are massivly flawed, but slightly (slightly I note) less so then the Jedi. The Jedi have good intentions, far better then the Sith to be sure, but they ignore a large chunk of their own nature.

The Jedi abstain from passion and emotion. That's why they commonly take children away from their parents before any attachments can form. It is why Jedi are essentially asked to remain chaste. This abstenance, (and I mean in general, not just the sex) is their flaw.

Passion is a powerfull tool, for good or ill. But it's a very necesary one. To abstain from it, or even to try, is impressive. But not really all that productive. It's why art history has few Eunuchs of note. Passion does grant power, power that doesn't have to necessarily be used for ill ends.

I'm guessing that force users were more powerfull before the creation of orders like the Jedi. People who could use their full emotinal range, from anger to love, would be extremely more effective then those who limited themselves to one end of the spectrum.

You claim nature see's in black and white? I'd say the exact opposite. The Jedi and the Sith see things in black and white. Nature, and the force, is the rainbow in between. Dark is closer to nature, but nobody is near it. But, picking which side has is closer, I go with nature of sentients (which at least has the capacity for darkness) and nonsentients alike (though they cannot truly be called dark).

Creatures in nature do not act according to good or evil, but rather as true to themselves. The Jackal will kill, and take sustenence in the suffering and death of others. Does this make it evil? Even if it immensely enjoys what it does? No, because it is doing what is true to itself.

This is the flaw of the Jedi. They deny huge parts of them. The sith induldge excessivly in their worst parts. But at least they acknowledge the parts, and that is why I side with them.

Darth L. Dipsit
True, but I don't think it has to be that way. With all due respect, Mr. InsaneNoodlyGuy, sir, I am not discussing the nature of light versus dark in the Force, because that is how the Force eventually becomes used as a tool. What I am discussing, rather, are the techniques used to control the Force. It is not a matter, in this case, of light or dark, but rather of emotions or no emotions. The Sith use emotions. The Jedi do not. They use instinct and objectivity, because emotions, not only simple bitterness and anger, mind you, but attachment and love, too, possibly, make Sith what they are. It's a matter of seeing beyond the simple matter of conflict between good and evil (which is undoubtedly the real argument here - this is what SW is - my point is about the root of the schism) and seeing the real difference between the way Yoda channels the Force and Sidious channels the Force. Yoda does not feel - true Jedi remain unattached and uninvolved. So, theoretically, there could be a Sith that does nothing but love, because Sith are defined by emotional feeling rather than hatred.

In summation, the idea is (totally disconnected from previous arguments on this thread at this point):
Being Sith does not mean one is necessarily evil - it means that one uses emotions to guide their use of the Force (which ends up always leading to evil, admittedly, but, again, theoretically does not always have to be so at all times).
Being a Jedi does not make one good - it means that one uses objectivity to guide their use of the Force.

They are like two separate styles - nothing more. The conflict to which the styles lead, as you see I mean, is another issue entirely. According to this, Anakin became a Sith as soon as he fell in love with Padme. See what I mean now? It's a distinction. And no offense taken to the addressal to my name, sir.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Morridini
Evil is merely a point of view. So what the bad guys do doesn't necessarily be evil in everyones eyes.

Like some would say that what happened 11th September 2001 (or was it 2000?) was evil, other will say it was justice.

Firs off, Morridini... Evil is not merely a POV... A person's definition of evil does not change what it really is any more than ignoring a fire in a house keeps you out of danger. What you're saying is evil is completely subjective, and that's a horrible way to look at morality. If what you're saying is true, than torture, murder, betrayal, cannibalism, hatred, etc. are all morally justifiable and right, with the only conditions being on POV.

Dipsit, the Sith ARE evil. The very teachings of the Sith center around hatred of the Jedi and the need to dominate the very galaxy. Don't try and tell me the Sith are misguided or true to themselves. If being true to an inner beast is being true, so would shitting everywhere, humping the legs of anything attractive... etc. The Jedi revel in their advanced state and distance themselves from such beastly urges and desires. A Sith claims that they are free, and that they are true to themselves. And this is the greatest lie of all, since they are slaves to their inner beasts and they have NO future.

And the Jedi discourage passion and emotion, but even mighty Yoda can only be so stoic. The Jedi don't deny passion entirely (as Anakin seems to suggest). They don't totally deny themselves their humanity. Jedi have a sense of humor. They show respect, they are sometimes jealous. They get angry, whether it be righteous or petty anger... They are sad. The Jedi are not some mindless automotons like everyone suggests. They simply -deal- with their emotions better than the Sith. They control their emotions, not the other way around. However, Dipsit does make a very good statement... that being a Jedi does not equate with good. However, unless one is a Sith in name only and not in practice, one cannot be anything but deluded and evil. If evil is too strong a term for you, try 'mislead', since that is what evil beings are... mislead from the moral truths of the universe.

Ushgarak
Regardless of whether evil is a point of view or not, a. not in Star Wars it isn't, and b. not according to GL it isn't, which is why he is presenting his films the way he is. This being the SW area and not the Philosophy area, let's keep it like that, thanks.

Secondly, the Jedi take kids and forbid attachment not out of any misguided attempt at purity, but simply out of practicality! Untrained Force users are liable to fall to their emotions and are dangerous. Properly trained Jedi have to be taken at birth else the risk of them falling to the Dark Side is too great. Jedi are forbidden attachm,ent because that also leads to the Dark Side.

Yeah, it's harsh, but that is how it is! You cannot criticise the Jedi for the Universe being the way it is. They do the absolute best in the situation they are in.

As Jedi HAVE to shy from attachment and as in GL's story the Jedi are the absolute good guys, then by his rules, the two are not incompatible. I also see nothing on screen to suggest this is in error.

InsaneNoodlyGuy
The Jedi dont' deny all their emotions, but that seems to be the ultimate goal. For example, not greiving the death of a close friend. That runs contrary to every natural impulse most any creature would have, sentient or nonsentient alike. It's not sucessful yet, but it seems to be what they are trying for. As you said, it's the journey that counts. And trying to be lifeless automatons is a damn stupid journey.

If the Jedi paused to think about their recuritment program, they'd realize that their supreme arrogance had reached a point rivaling the corrupt senate they served. Who gave them the goddamn right? Claiming to prevent future catastrophy is a damn stupid reason if you ask me. Pratical or not, they remove the child's choice from them. Anakin chooses to become a Jedi: did anybody else really have the option? It's a testament to the orders effectiveness that there weren't more betrayls. Why do you think it was so easy for palpatine to turn the public opinion against the jedi? the jedi numbered in thousands in a galaxy of billions. Most would never meet a Jedi. And hearing of a group that takes children from their parents at birth wouldn't aid their reputation any. For many, I'd be the Jedi were seen as an evil order and their destruction an act of good.

Besides, Luke turned out fine. Proof the "praticality" of the Jedi was utter conceit. And in Eu (valid because of the section of forums we are in) Luke proceeds to break pretty much every tenent of the former Jedi, having several girlfriends and eventually a wife, bearing children, and forming massive amounts of personal attachments, again turning out fine.

If all Jedi are absolute good, explain Dooku.

Ushgarak
No, Luke was NOT fine. Luke was very dangerous! He was on the edge of falling to the Dark Side. That is an insane risk to take!

Again, GL is the final arbitrator. He presents us with a system where the Jedi have to take force-capable babies at birth for the greater good. That is, again, the way it is.

And Dooku fell to the Dark Side. Did you possibly note that one?

Furthermore, whatever section we are in, EU that contradicts GL or the movies is in error.

Darth_Janus
Agreed. And Luke Skywalker went from being GL's hero in the OT to becoming everyone's living fantasy in the Eu noves after that time period. The whole series beyond that is inconsistant with GL's original design and his emphasis on the struggle between good and evil hrough the Force. Luke Skywalker has been presented by a few people here as a "grey" Jedi, which is a dangerous thing to even consider. The Jedi represent the good in the SW universe. Look at their leader, Yoda... Do you think Yoda would approve of Luke's fall to the darkside in the De series? Of his attachments and relationships? The series went from space opera to action-soap opera with the creation of post-ROTJ EU. Meh

Anyways, this topic has been beaten to death. Sith = evil, jedi = good. It is that simple.

InsaneNoodlyGuy
Yeah, but he started bucking the rules before EU, right in EU. And he was trained far after his birth, but did resist the darkside at his pivotal moment.

Yes Dooku feel to the Dark side. but he was a Jedi. From birth, raised in the opressive system, and served the Republic for years. And he still fell. Proof that the system isn't infailable.

Agreed, the greater good should be served. That's why the Jedi had to die. Saved a lot of parents grief. At least untill their children were all killed anyway.

And even if you disregard Eu, it's safe to say Luke isn't about to go out and restart the old order. The "Perfect Good" is dead in the universe at the time when BALANCE IS RESTORED.

So, getting back on topic, I still think the Sith are closer to the force.

Darth L. Dipsit
Dammit! I left before I got a chance to defend myself. Curse the luck.
Peace to everyone.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
Yeah, but he started bucking the rules before EU, right in EU. And he was trained far after his birth, but did resist the darkside at his pivotal moment.

Yes Dooku feel to the Dark side. but he was a Jedi. From birth, raised in the opressive system, and served the Republic for years. And he still fell. Proof that the system isn't infailable.

Agreed, the greater good should be served. That's why the Jedi had to die. Saved a lot of parents grief. At least untill their children were all killed anyway.

And even if you disregard Eu, it's safe to say Luke isn't about to go out and restart the old order. The "Perfect Good" is dead in the universe at the time when BALANCE IS RESTORED.

So, getting back on topic, I still think the Sith are closer to the force.

You're sure hung up on the child-napping, aren't you? Uh, let me give you an example of a child-napping.

"Ma'am, your child has potential to become a jedi knight. Since in this world, you all have barely two credits to rub together and have mud farms from sea to murky sea... Would you be willing to let your child become a champion of good and serve the Republic as a guardian, or remain here with you and possibly die?"

That's not every case, but damn near. Children who are taken to be jedi usually come from backgrounds where they may have died had they remained, or lived a life destitute and miserable. Hell of a choice, huh?

And now that you're talking about the Sith... well, in their day and age they either killed you, subjugated you, or both. They took choice away from everyone they came into contact with, and in the Sith empire there were castes from which one might never break away from... Hardly as oppressive as the Jedi selection method. Also, keep in mind that it is up to the select few to put aside their desires for the good of the many. Jedi serve because it is right and take pride in their position, not because it's something they simply 'want' to do.

And lastly, the Sith are not closer to the Force. They are NOT. Just because they use passion and emotion doesn't make them any more intune with the Force than the Jedi. if anything, the emotion drowns out the will of the Force. You see, the Jedi practice breathing techniques, meditation, and achieving a tranquil state so that they can perceive the will of the Force, to let it guide their actions instead of trying to outright control it. The Force seems to have a built-in mechanism that keeps it from being abused too much, which is why the Sith never have and never will defeat the Jedi entirely.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Darth L. Dipsit
Dammit! I left before I got a chance to defend myself. Curse the luck.
Peace to everyone.

I sense angst...

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
The Jedi dont' deny all their emotions, but that seems to be the ultimate goal. For example, not greiving the death of a close friend. That runs contrary to every natural impulse most any creature would have, sentient or nonsentient alike. It's not sucessful yet, but it seems to be what they are trying for. As you said, it's the journey that counts. And trying to be lifeless automatons is a damn stupid journey.

Your can't deny your emotions and this is not the goal of the Jedi. The goal is that you don't let your emotions control your actions. That seems to be hard in some cases even inhuman (sacrifice the life of a good friend when it's necessary).
But in fact that are two different things. If (for example) you have a good friend and somebody kills him, you will hate the person who did so and you will suffer because you lost your friend. That is natural and that is what a Jedi would do. But if you take a weapon and kill the person that killed your friend just because you hate him that is wrong - and that is what a Jedi won't do.

So there is a difference between "denying your emotions" and "acting only because of your emotions".



Now...that is quite stupid reasoning.
What can a child in an age of 2 or 3 years decide ? Nothing at all. Because you can manipulate children quite easily. So what do you think that the Jedi do ? Run into a house, say "oh...you child has a midichlorian count of XXXX so we take it with us. HAHA !" ?

They will ask the parents of course. Can the parents decide what is good for their child ? At least...yes. And still the child has the ability to decide later in life. Nobody can keep you in the order (see the lost twenty) if you don't want to be in it. So what ?

And the Jedi don't take children because they want to prevent future catastrophe. What can somebody who NEVER received training with force powers do ? Nothing. They won't become over powerful Sith Lords only because the Jedi don't train them. They might have some supernatural powers (reflexes, piloting skills and so on) but they won't become a threat for the galaxy when they aren't trained.



And again that is stupid reasoning. We know that several Jedi back in KotoR times and before that had children. The mother of the Quel-Droma brothers for example was a Jedi.
That rules you talk about were installed with the Ruusan reformation because the Jedi saw that all those things might lead either to the dark side or to a point where a Jedi can't do what must be done because of that. Would you sacrifice your wife or your children if it's necessary ? I don't think so.



Dooku was a Sith...

Ushgarak
And even if you disregard Eu, it's safe to say Luke isn't about to go out and restart the old order. The "Perfect Good" is dead in the universe at the time when BALANCE IS RESTORED.

Incorrect- of course he will re-start the Order! That's the whole point. The Sith are destreoyed; Balance must be served by the Jedi again.

"Agreed, the greater good should be served. That's why the Jedi had to die. Saved a lot of parents grief. At least untill their children were all killed anyway."

That is NOT a greater good. Without proper training, those people are easy prey for the Dark Side. The greater good is to train them as Jedi.

"And the Jedi don't take children because they want to prevent future catastrophe. What can somebody who NEVER received training with force powers do ? Nothing. They won't become over powerful Sith Lords only because the Jedi don't train them. They might have some supernatural powers (reflexes, piloting skills and so on) but they won't become a threat for the galaxy when they aren't trained."

Not a powerful threat. but still a threat. Without guidance, even with only imperceptible powers, they will fall to the Dark Side and this is clearly dangerous!

And no system is faillible. The entire point of Dooku's character is to point out it IS possible to fall to the Dark Side. It is, however, incredibly rare.

I am sorry, but to fight GL's own point of view on this is ludicrous. Simple morality tale. Jedi good, Sith evil. Any point of view you have which appears to contradict this, is then nothing to do with the movies.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not a powerful threat. but still a threat. Without guidance, even with only imperceptible powers, they will fall to the Dark Side and this is clearly dangerous!

Not necessarily.
There are multiple people trained under Luke in the Jedi Academy that are quite old and still never fell to the dark side. That is based on the character. Not every being that is gifted with force powers will fall to the dark side when they aren't trained to be Jedi. There must be thousand of children born between ROTS and the JA times who had force potential and as we see they didn't all fall to the dark side.

And without training this is no danger since they can't use their powers. See...every dark side user / Sith we know as a threat in the SW universe was either trained from infancy on with dark side powers (Maul) or is a fallen Jedi (Dooku, Vader). That people received training and without training they have some supernatural abilities but nothing that is a "threat" really.

Ushgarak
Yet GL describes that this is how the Jedi work- taking the Force sensitives and training them to control their emotions, lest they turn dark., Again, the EU is very possibly in error on this.

The Jedi simply will not do anything that is actively immoral (unless they have Fallen)- it's kinda a Star Wars rule. As they do that with the kids, it must be moral, and therefore necessary.

Darth L. Dipsit
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I sense angst...

Sorry for the delayed response, but it wasn't a really big deal. I just felt that my point was perhaps slightly misunderstood and I didn't really get a chance to back it up. Sorry if it seemed as though I was really upset. For example, I wasn't really trying to defend the Sith. I just thought that the way it worked was - well, I can sum it up in an apothem or something:

To be a Sith, one doesn't have to be evil, but to be evil you does have to be a Sith.

Anways, I'm sorry if I seemed to overreact. I was just annoyed at my own poor choice of timing to go offline.

Peace be with everyone.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yet GL describes that this is how the Jedi work- taking the Force sensitives and training them to control their emotions, lest they turn dark., Again, the EU is very possibly in error on this.

Yes. But still the Jedi never had the chance to take all Force sensitives and train them. They just did so within republic space but still there could be thousands or even millions of force sensitive beings around that were never trained and did not fall to the dark side.
To fall to the dark side you have to be VERY egoistic and to be a thread you have to train your force powers somehow. I don't think that any force sensitive can become a major thread just because not being educated by the Jedi.



Something that is "moral" is not "necessary". Of course it is better to take the children and train them to be Jedi than leave them on their own with the possibility that they become dark siders. Still we never saw that Jedi came somewhere and simply took children away because they might fall to the dark side if not being trained.

Otherwise Obi-Wan and Yoda would have trained Luke and Leia from infancy on just because this would have been "necessary".

Darth Koroni
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Firs off, Morridini... Evil is not merely a POV... A person's definition of evil does not change what it really is any more than ignoring a fire in a house keeps you out of danger. What you're saying is evil is completely subjective, and that's a horrible way to look at morality. If what you're saying is true, than torture, murder, betrayal, cannibalism, hatred, etc. are all morally justifiable and right, with the only conditions being on POV.

Dipsit, the Sith ARE evil. The very teachings of the Sith center around hatred of the Jedi and the need to dominate the very galaxy. Don't try and tell me the Sith are misguided or true to themselves. If being true to an inner beast is being true, so would shitting everywhere, humping the legs of anything attractive... etc. The Jedi revel in their advanced state and distance themselves from such beastly urges and desires. A Sith claims that they are free, and that they are true to themselves. And this is the greatest lie of all, since they are slaves to their inner beasts and they have NO future.


Shut up and look at human history. The Norse thought that if they died in battle they'd go to heaven, Hitler thought he was doing humanity a favor, the Crusaders massacred the Muslims in the Holy Lands in the name of God, need I say more?

Neutrality
Originally posted by Darth Koroni
Shut up and look at human history. The Norse thought that if they died in battle they'd go to heaven, Hitler thought he was doing humanity a favor, the Crusaders massacred the Muslims in the Holy Lands in the name of God, need I say more?

Shut up? What are you talking about. All of those examples you gave are POV's and support DJ

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Darth Koroni
Shut up and look at human history. The Norse thought that if they died in battle they'd go to heaven, Hitler thought he was doing humanity a favor, the Crusaders massacred the Muslims in the Holy Lands in the name of God, need I say more?

You should better read before you reply...

Darth Koroni
I apologize if I didn't get my point across, what I was trying to say was that Good and Evil are terms only used by people who can only see the world in black and white.

Darth Somebody
Nute Gunray. Become powerful and make money. He's like a galactic Bill Gates, lol.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Darth Koroni
I apologize if I didn't get my point across, what I was trying to say was that Good and Evil are terms only used by people who can only see the world in black and white.

I suggest you drink a big cup o' this and post back with some actual arguments...

InsaneNoodlyGuy
Originally posted by Darth_Janus


That's not every case, but damn near. Children who are taken to be jedi usually come from backgrounds where they may have died had they remained, or lived a life destitute and miserable. Hell of a choice, huh?

The Force seems to have a built-in mechanism that keeps it from being abused too much, which is why the Sith never have and never will defeat the Jedi entirely.

First off, i wonder where you get the basis to say that nearly every jedi was taken from such a place. Secondly, even if your argument is corrent, it still carries a big flaw: What about the children? Sure, they are technically given the choice, but what else would they do? They are trained into it their whole damn lives. Knowing little else, of course they will opt to volunteer for the service when they are able to. The Fett clones all opted to be in the army, but for much the same reasons.

The mechanism's you decribe are also why the sith will never truly die. Oh sure, the offical line has been broken, but you know somebody will restart it.



Dude, you use the GL argument way too much. It's one thing to use it to argue specific points, but your using it on some large generizations now. Did the fact the Jedi were essentially a State-sanctioned religion make that moral?


Yes, Luke, an immensely frustrated boy stuck on Tatooine, full of frustration and all sorts of negative emotions, fell so hard to the dark side, rulling his sand empire with... oh wait. HE NEVER WENT EVIL.

And Leia, the passionate leader of the Rebellion, used her force powers to... Hmmm... I forgot, THEY NEVER MANIFESTED. Vader was close to her for hours, torturing her, and didn't even feel her prescense! And she was chalk full of anger too. Nobody even bothered watching her either.



You seem awfully sure. Well, he's got quite a task in front of him, since most of the universe believes the Jedi were rightfully destroyed and Luke really has no idea how the old sytem worked at all.

You claim luke as a "grey" Jedi, and that it is dangerous. I say again, he did allright. The grey Jedi as you put them are likely the ones closest to the force, beating out Jedi and the Sith.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
First off, i wonder where you get the basis to say that nearly every jedi was taken from such a place. Secondly, even if your argument is corrent, it still carries a big flaw: What about the children? Sure, they are technically given the choice, but what else would they do? They are trained into it their whole damn lives. Knowing little else, of course they will opt to volunteer for the service when they are able to. The Fett clones all opted to be in the army, but for much the same reasons.

Damn it. First not all Jedi were taken from some planets where they dwelled in suffering, pain, hunger or whatever. Imagine it like that: Jedi coming telling you that your child has the chance to be a Jedi Knight a very powerful warrior, a hero - or he can server Burgers at the next fast food restaurant for his entire life. What would be your choice ?
Next. Knowing little else and being trained for the entirety of their lives doesn't mean they have no choice anymore. Dooku had that choice - the other 19 individuals of the lost 20 had that choice. Every person has that choice. And well...Jedi did know more than the Jedi temple. This is not a catholic monestary.



Did you ever see somebody in the entire EU "restarting" the Sith ? They need knowledge to do so. Knowledge that can't simply be found lying around somewhere.



You realy believe that somebody will think the Jedi were rightfully destroyed because Palpatine - having reigned the galaxy for over 20 years - will tell them so. Would you thrust Hitler when he tells you he did something because it was "right" ?



Something as a "grey Jedi" does not exist. You have Jedi, you have Dark Jedi, you have Sith. Nothing more. No grey, yellow, blue, red, purple or pink Jedi with green hairs.

Darth_Janus
"First off, i wonder where you get the basis to say that nearly every jedi was taken from such a place. Secondly, even if your argument is corrent, it still carries a big flaw: What about the children? Sure, they are technically given the choice, but what else would they do? They are trained into it their whole damn lives. Knowing little else, of course they will opt to volunteer for the service when they are able to. The Fett clones all opted to be in the army, but for much the same reasons.

The mechanism's you decribe are also why the sith will never truly die. Oh sure, the offical line has been broken, but you know somebody will restart it. "

I think what you need to consider is this:

"Star Wars and Philosophy, edited by Kevin S. Decker and Jason T. Eberl." It's part of the Popular Culture and Philosophy series books, and I highly recommend it. I could spend all week going back and forth with you here, but if you were to find and read this book it would clear things up tremendously. Otherwise, I'm just wasting my time.

InsaneNoodlyGuy
I thought we agreed not to use non-canonical sources?



In case you didn't notice, Palpatine was a very charasmatic and beloved individual. That's why it was called a rebellion and not a revolution. Lots of people liked the Empire. It was beginning to decline because of it's tactics, but Palpatine was hardly reviled. Remember, we saw him "behind the scenes" plotting his evil deeds. In front of the holo's, he was just a really loveable hugable ugly guy.

And people loved hitler. During his reign, many people truly believed the Jews were a problem that had to be delt with. There are people who know the whole truth now and still love hitler and belive he was right, or that he at least had "The right idea taken too far"

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
I thought we agreed not to use non-canonical sources?



In case you didn't notice, Palpatine was a very charasmatic and beloved individual. That's why it was called a rebellion and not a revolution. Lots of people liked the Empire. It was beginning to decline because of it's tactics, but Palpatine was hardly reviled. Remember, we saw him "behind the scenes" plotting his evil deeds. In front of the holo's, he was just a really loveable hugable ugly guy.

And people loved hitler. There are people who know the whole truth now and still love hitler.

This is ALL unfounded.

The people of the new Empire accepted it because they knew they could do nothing about it. It's similar to how people gripe about the blood sucking bastards in DC but they won't lift a finger to protest. People are naturally sheep (Most of them) and to say they liked the Empire is the mother of all assumptions.

Now, Sidious' men... Imperial soldiers, were reviled by the Hutts, who tried to bribe them so that the imperials wouldn't move in on their trade (Which they tried to do anyways). Several planets suffered the effects of this "ugly, loveable guy" like Kashyyk, where everyone was enslaved. Also, there are whole worlds chaffing under the empire's iron grip as shown in many books. Whenever even a small demonstration or "revolution/rebellion" took place, the imperials would execute them and several others as punishment for the act of rebellion.

I don't think you get it... Even Tarkin understands the core element of Sidious' new empire... And it's fear. People who fear you don't neccessarily love you. That goes without saying. If Sidious was mostly loved, why did he have Imperial occupation forces on nearly every claimed planet? Why did he feel the need to create the Death Star nearly twenty some years before ANH? Why is there even a rebellion?

The answer is, Sidious WASN'T some nice guy once he got his talons into the throne. He was a ruthless, evil despot. If he wasn't, we'd see evidence of people nearly worshipping him, as people did Hitler.

DiamondBullets
I agree with these villians:

Jango. When he said "I'm just a simple man merely tying to make my way in the universe", he was basically telling the truth.

Watto: Everything was buisness, nothing was personal. --except for that chance cube, that was cheap.

Sebulba: If some kid was trying to show me up in racing I'd be pissed-off to! Even in real life, when some rookie thinks they're the shit with their riced-out Civic with a coffee-can muffler and a plastic spoiler, and then they be choking on my exhaust when it's over!

Fishy
The only one I can agree with is Revan.

Dooku at first, but he fell too and he was corrupted by the Dark Side, his noble goal fell by his time in the Dark. He was only confusing himself.

Revan on the other hand always stayed true to himself, what he did may have been evil but he also had a very good reason for it, and everybody that can now in Kotor II seems to accept that what he did was for the good of the galaxy. Malak just destroyed everything Revan had going for him by a push of a button.

Captian Morgan
i can only agree with jango he just wanted to live happily until windu cut his head of

InsaneNoodlyGuy
Obviously people began to hate him, yes. BUt I bet his funeral turnout was huge.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
Obviously people began to hate him, yes. BUt I bet his funeral turnout was huge.

Yeah, didn't you see all those people partying at the end of ROTJ? He was loved.

Fishy
Well in some cultures they celebrate the deaths of their loved one's stick out tongue

Darth Sparhawk
Well, I prefer the philosophy of the emperor over the ideas of Yoda. Jedi codex seems unnatural and inhuman. Sith Lords can feel.
On the other hand, I detest the Youzhaan Vong fanaticism (spelling?).

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