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(Note: In every progressing match The Hulk will get angrier, so yah yah strength increases etc)

0: Sasquatch
1: Hercules
2: Wonderwoman w/o magical weaponry
3: Namor -Fresh out of water-
4: Thor w/o mjolnir
5: Gladiator( confidence varies)
6: Drax
7: Classic Juggernaut
8: Ironman w/ hulk buster armor
9: Spiked Thing & Ultimate Collosus
10: Angry Superman
11: Doomsday

He ain't getting past Wonder Woman. Even without her weapons.

if its Classic Herc, then hes not getting past Herc.

if its just a physical fight then he has the potential to go all the way. none of the others possesse limitless physical strength , and hulk can match and surpass these guys physically. might have a prob around the angry supes area as supes could well be written i dont know sucking in radiation from the sun to get stronger or something like that . wonder woman, hulk would bone her then eat her

I never see this actually asnwered. Is Hulks rage limitess?

About the gauntlet. He gets past Sasquatch, Fresh out of water Namor (if he stays on land he will get weaker with the time) classic Doomsday, Spikey Thing and Ultimate Colosssus. I also see him taking Gladiator - if - hes not confident, or has doubts in the fight.

The rest are too skilled or more durable than Hulk so im in doubts. Not to mention being in his range of strengh.

wonderwomans base strength is higher than hulks. she throws him to the moon where he suffocates and dies

"wonderwomans base strength is higher than hulks. she throws him to the moon where he suffocates and dies"

You mean higher than a base level Hulk, wich is the level of strenght Doc Samson has.

When he gets pissed, no she isent. And that tactic in comics doesnt work much. Superman tried on Doomsday and didnt managed it. Gladiator tried on Hulk and didnt worked the same.

Hulk has never been shown to have a limit to his rage - NEVER - this is for a reason as placing limitations on a power said to be limitless kind of defeats the point (you may want to take it up with Marvel if you disagree). I will always stand by and say that NO physical feat is too great for the Hulk - one way or another he will eventually surpass all - and if there is no time limit for him to complete the gauntlett then im afraid they all go down eventually.

People tend to forget that not only does his strength increase with his anger, so does his durability, healing, reflexes etc.

Hulk gets to Juggernaut and gets stalemated

Hulk loses at WW. WW is almost on par with Superman, who lifts like at least 300,000 tons max, so by the time Hulk gets mad and strong enough to beat her hell already have been knocked out cold.

"Hulk has never been shown to have a limit to his rage - NEVER - this is for a reason as placing limitations on a power said to be limitless kind of defeats the point"

His rage isent limitess. And while impressive hes yet to surpass other beings that destroyed galaxies and use planets as weapons against a mad Thanos.

While i cant recall the exact issue in Pads first run Hulk admited talking about a certain beings power that he could work on his anger for weeks and would achieve that level. Ill try to find of who he was refering to.

For what ive seen, his strenght -is- limitess but since his rage isent, he only gets so far. Wich is still above the top tier. Its a setback.

Another point is ironically, is that he shows those high levels when hes lifting or destroying something, not when he is figthing others of the same tier.

So going by comics, some guys here have stalemated him more than once and in my book can make it again.

Also in a final analisys he can get overpowered and knocked out. Like he recently was in 3 punches. And yes, it was Savage Hulk.

"Hulk gets to Juggernaut and gets stalemated"

While is possible for him to take the opponents until Juggernaut, i dont see him getting past Drax at all. At best he stalemates again.

It seems that Namor and Thor are... excuse the pun, watered down.

Namor would hang with hulk for a while but the get weaker and beat. Thor on the otherhand without using the hammer has locked up with Hulk for an hour. Increading his strength to match the Hulks.

I think Hulk stops there. Although if engaging Namor in water, hed lose to him.

All this is If he beats Wonder Woman ofcourse. But i dont see it happening.

its no use using dcs strength range against marvels, besides hulk has liftes 300 000 tonneds like nothing many times without being particularly enraged. strength wise guys no one can equal hulk potentially as he can alwys get stronger. i dont understand how guys on here cant get there head round this. be it supes, ww, juggie, anyone, evntually hulk can overpower anyone physically. his character was created to physically do the impossible at times. and thats his potential. superman would be the biggest problem on there as as a character he too was designed to do impossible feats regularly and is always written just powerful enough to handle whatever it is he needs to do. i dont like him though as a character, very much a character based on growing powers all the time to suit his needs. any way back to hulk. please read about his past achievements and his actual characteristics b4 laying claims of limitations and the what not

oh anyone has the potential to lose to namour on his own turf its comics, just like mojlner will always be thors saving grace in his comics. hoewever hulk is far more poowerful physically potentiallt than both outside of arcs involving them fighting

"strength wise guys no one can equal hulk potentially as he can alwys get stronger. i dont understand how guys on here cant get there head round this. be it supes, ww, juggie, anyone, evntually hulk can overpower anyone physically. his character was created to physically do the impossible at times"

At times being the word. He has the limitess strenght wich is fuel by his rage, however rage itself isent limitess.

That PAD comic i talked about has Grey Hulk admitting that his savage persona could rage for a month and would never aproach Sattanish. This means non limites rage. Wich is what Hulk needs to become stronger.

So far he has become more than the top tier (never more than Celestials or the like) however how you so well put it, on fights against others of his tier of strength he usually stalemates. Its also good to take into consideration its easier to lift something than to fight someone strong or almost as you.

in a pure brawl, hulk's strength will continually increase until he is stronger than anyone. that as stated by marvel and stan lee. all these opponents with 2 exceptions have finite strength. hulk RARELY loses in slugfests - usually stalemates in short fights. it took about a dozen avengers to actually ko hulk. who knocked hulk cold with 3 punches?

hulk would eventually beat all of these opponents in a brawl except doomsday who can increase his own strength to match hulk's - as he was becoming stronger to battle superman. the other one who might match him by increasing strength would be drax WITH the power gem. he too would have a limitless well of strength to draw on. these would likely stalemate hulk. the gem i suppose COULD grant drax greater strength than even hulk could reach, but since hulk's strength defies physical limitations (as stated by stan lee himself) im not sure about that.

glads and supes COULD beat him, but it would require brains and use of powers other than their strength. they would lose in pure brawls as would the others.

juggs is another question. i think theoretically hulk's strength could grow to the point where it would surpass cytorrak's influence, but that's just speculation.

hulk has crushed sasquatch and thor w/o his hammer in the past. fights against herc have been inconclusive but given time hulk would become too strong and take him.

hulk truly is 'the strongest one there is!'

"in a pure brawl, hulk's strength will continually increase until he is stronger than anyone. that as stated by marvel and stan lee. all these opponents with 2 exceptions have finite strength. hulk RARELY loses in slugfests "

It will grow up until very high levels but not infinite. His strenght is limitess yes but what makes it work its rage. He needs the rage, wich by what Hulk said before isnt limitess. See what i mean? He has limitess capability for strenght, but since rage isent the same way its a setback. At least for what ive read sounds correct.

Hulk has lost some slugfests too. By memory: Abomination, some knights on another dimension, HulkKillerHumanoid, Arisen, Klattu, had to ask Apocalypse to let him go, Onslaught etc. Had limbs broken like Ultron in Secret Wars etc. etc.

"- usually stalemates in short fights. it took about a dozen avengers to actually ko hulk. who knocked hulk cold with 3 punches?"

Dozen Avengers didnt knocked out Hulk. Wman, Herc and She Hulk charged into him and Herc gave 3 shots that made him go down. The rest of the Avengers didnt do anything. They wer cannon fodder.

Recently in Marvel team up # 11 he was knocked out in 3 shots. Savage Hulk btw.

"doomsday who can increase his own strength to match hulk's - as he was becoming stronger to battle superman"

Doomsday in the end was getting weaker. You can see that because Superman for the first time manages to break one of his bones and states this.

"hulk has crushed sasquatch and thor w/o his hammer in the past"

Crushed Sasquatch when he didnt had the original strenght. First figth iirc was a stalemate. Thor/without hammer has been down but not beaten. " Crushed"? He never crushed any of the top tier so far at -theyr best.-

With the exception of Abomination, ill grant him that.

"fights against herc have been inconclusive but given time hulk would become too strong and take him. "

His rage fluctuates some. If it actually gets high as we`ve seen in some of his feats theres no way ill give Herc a win. If he does like his usual level, he wont. And its a stalemate. I actually belive Herc has means of winning, but not like he is portraited in most of his appearances. And never the majority.

maybe by a miracle he gets past juggernaut, but i diubt it. and theres no way hes getting past hulk buster ironman

<<It will grow up until very high levels but not infinite. His strenght is limitess yes but what makes it work its rage. He needs the rage, wich by what Hulk said before isnt limitess. See what i mean? He has limitess capability for strenght, but since rage isent the same way its a setback. At least for what ive read sounds correct.>>

how did you arrive at the notion that his rage has a limit? where is it written (you said you read it) that emotions are finite concepts?

<<Abomination, some knights on another dimension, HulkKillerHumanoid, Arisen, Klattu, had to ask Apocalypse to let him go, Onslaught etc. Had limbs broken like Ultron in Secret Wars etc. etc.>>

ha. klattu was some mile tall space giant/god. onslaught was wielding reality warping power and no one else present, including thor, could even get NEAR him. hulk held his own for a long while and was ko'd by the energy burst resulting from the explosion of the armor. onslaught himself did not ko hulk. he's beat abom enough times not to bother refuting that. apoc was holding him but that's it - it was never a fight. the droid is just stupid and in sw he also held up a friggin mountain range.

<<Dozen Avengers didnt knocked out Hulk. Wman, Herc and She Hulk charged into him and Herc gave 3 shots that made him go down. The rest of the Avengers didnt do anything. They wer cannon fodder.>>

they were still present and i doubt the 3 you mentioned would have beaten him without the others when ironman wonderman namor and hercules couldn't put him down earlier. to say they might have but for samson's interference, would be speculation. maybe they would have, but maybe not.

<<Doomsday in the end was getting weaker. You can see that because Superman for the first time manages to break one of his bones and states this.>>

superman says dd is getting weaker? i'll need to check that. all through the fight he got faster and stronger and i KNOW supes said that.

<<Crushed Sasquatch when he didnt had the original strenght. First figth iirc was a stalemate. Thor/without hammer has been down but not beaten. " Crushed"? He never crushed any of the top tier so far at -theyr best.- >>

original strength? huh? you talking about hulk annual 8? hulk beat the crap out of sasquatch in that and was ready to finish him but for an avalanche. not sure what you mean by 'original' strength. and hulk would have killed thor in that battle (thor 385 i think) without his hammer. hulk left the fight because he had the answer he wanted - he was stronger than thor, even though thor wanted to go on. if you don't think hulk won that fight, you'd better read it again. bloodlusted hulk WOULDN'T have stopped and would have killed thor. the same would happen to herc eventually.

hulk is strongest and in a slugfest, unless someone can tap some infinite reserve, they will eventually lose - at least in theory - to the hulk.

oh, and prof hulk stalemated hulkbuster armor - savage hulk would demolish it, methinks.

Originally posted by leonidas
oh, and prof hulk stalemated hulkbuster armor - savage hulk would demolish it, methinks.

not after fighting juggernaut. and if the hulk-buster fails, he could eject and finish him off with normal armor

after fighting juggs, his strength would be even higher and his healing factor will have increased. if hulk blows up the hulkbuster armor, why do you think tony'll finish him in the regular armor? and remember, i'm talk oure slugfest. im MAY have enough additional powers to beat hulk (like supes and glads may have) but in a pure brawl, im would be a welcome rest after juggs.

"how did you arrive at the notion that his rage has a limit? where is it written (you said you read it) that emotions are finite concepts"

I said it was stated by Hulk itself. Written during PAD`s first run. Thats in the comics. Real life? Thats another matter that doesnt apply in comics. If you want to discuss real life, then in my opinion humanity isent a limitess concept. While Hulk`s strenght derives from a non human source, his emotions are still very human.

"ha. klattu was some mile tall space giant/god. onslaught was wielding reality warping power and no one else present, including thor, could even get NEAR him. hulk held his own for a long while and was ko'd by the energy burst resulting from the explosion of the armor. onslaught himself did not ko hulk. he's beat abom enough times not to bother refuting that. apoc was holding him but that's it - it was never a fight. the droid is just stupid and in sw he also held up a friggin mountain range."

Neverthless Hulk has his share of slugfests losts with strenght only. Even recently. Thats nothing to be ashamed of. Hercules did, Superman did, Thor did, Surfer did, Gladiator did. Getting stronger than other heroes of the - top tier - doesnt translate not being able to be defeated with strenght in return.

"they were still present and i doubt the 3 you mentioned would have beaten him without the others when ironman wonderman namor and hercules couldn't put him down earlier. to say they might have but for samson's interference, would be speculation. maybe they would have, but maybe not"

Only the 3 wer figthing back in the end. The other four at the beginning, didnt team together. Well Iron Man and Wonder Man did. Herc and Namor didnt. Herc stalemated that short round. About Samsons interfearnce, note that Hercules and Hulk wer showed still figthing when he came in and none was having the upperhand.

"superman says dd is getting weaker? i'll need to check that. all through the fight he got faster and stronger and i KNOW supes said that"

You might be confusing with Supes saying something on the lines of : " We`ve been figthing all the day long and hes still strong like he was ". That was in the middle chapters. In the last chapter, before Supes dies he breaks one of DD`s bones and says that finally the monster is getting hurt.

"original strength? huh? you talking about hulk annual 8?"

Dont recall the issue. Sasquatch had two powerlevels completly different so far. When Byrne was on Alpha Flight, he was Hulks level. He even helps Hulk beating Wendigo during that period. Some time after Byrne left the title they made it cannon that Sas was that strong because he was "possesed" or incarnated, by one of the great beasts. That had that amazing strenght. So Sasquatchs level was depowered to Thing`s level. Recently in infinite crusade, he stated that Thing has an edge over him in strenght.

"hulk left the fight because he had the answer he wanted - he was stronger than thor, even though thor wanted to go on. if you don't think hulk won that fight, you'd better read it again. bloodlusted hulk WOULDN'T have stopped and would have killed thor"

I had that fight. Hulk was afraid of the hammer. And while i am in the agrenment that he becomes stronger than others of the top tier, that difference in fights isent huge, heaps and bounds. Thor was bloodied, but wasent down. Hulk punched him quite often in the end asking himself why Thor wouldnt stay down and was also frustated. That implies that at full while there is a difference its not enought to "trash" other high top level heroes like you said. And lets not forget while that example shows Hulk having the upperhand, theres another also without the hammer where Thor stalemates Hulk over an hour in a contest of strenght. With rage increase working for the green.

Where's He-Man? He'd own Hulk...hehe

Forgot about him

<<I said it was stated by Hulk itself. Written during PAD`s first run.>>

stan lee overrules all. and david wrecked hulk imho. he also did the writing where marko totalled the ridiculous prof hulk. thanos himself is dubious in regards to battling hulk. that in itself speaks volumes.

<<Thats nothing to be ashamed of. Hercules did, Superman did, Thor did, Surfer did, Gladiator did. Getting stronger than other heroes of the - top tier - doesnt translate not being able to be defeated with strenght in return.>>

ashamed?? of the losses you mentioned? klattu would ko any of these guys. using magic thor has been able to beat hulk. using votes supes has. hulk punked glads and herc has never been able to do anything better than a stalemate. the list of heroes or villains who have beaten hulk in simple 1on1 brawls in practically nonexistent. yet hulk has scored victories over almost everyone - including 'top tier' heroes and very few have scored any kind of decisive victory over him.

<<You might be confusing with Supes saying something on the lines of : " We`ve been figthing all the day long and hes still strong like he was ". That was in the middle chapters. In the last chapter, before Supes dies he breaks one of DD`s bones and says that finally the monster is getting hurt.>>

nope. supes distinctly says that dd is hitting him harder. still not sure of the context regrading what you say supes said. haven't checked.

<<When Byrne was on Alpha Flight, he was Hulks level. He even helps Hulk beating Wendigo during that period.>.

i hope not because help saved sas's arse in that fight - he was about to be slaughtered then intelligent hulk showed up and put a pounding wendigo faring FAR better than sas did. at the end, they did team up, but even langkowski himself recalls the beating hulk gave him and wonders if even HULK is strong enough to beat wendigo. clearly sas wasn't, nor was he shown to be near hulk-level.

<<I had that fight. Hulk was afraid of the hammer.>>

hulk wasn't 'afraid' of the hammer. he said that's why he never finished thor off. and he was right. hulk pummeled him at the end, and had thor tossed the hammer away again, hulk would have finished him.

<<That implies that at full while there is a difference its not enought to "trash" other top level heroes like you said.>>

don't recall saying he would 'trash' any top tier hero. but why do you suggest he was at 'full'? his blows weren't rocking the city around him like they were when he fought onslaught, so clearly he wasn't as strong as he could get. he even peacefully declined continuing the fight because he knew (and readers did, which was why the issue caused a great controversy at the time) finally who truly was the stronger. thor has heart - that's been amply shown a hundred times - but all his experience and knowledge would not let him win that fight. he needs his hammer and his magic, like ss needs power cosmic. the other fight is an ages old fight, and the more recent showing should be the one to look at. bottom line - no one uses just strength to ko hulk - or very next to nobody. whatever 'tier' they're in.

Originally posted by Ethereal
(Note: In every progressing match The Hulk will get angrier, so yah yah strength increases etc)

0: Sasquatch
1: Hercules
2: Wonderwoman w/o magical weaponry
3: Namor -Fresh out of water-
4: Thor w/o mjolnir
5: Gladiator( confidence varies)
6: Drax
7: Classic Juggernaut
8: Ironman w/ hulk buster armor
9: Spiked Thing & Ultimate Collosus
10: Angry Superman
11: Doomsday

The hulk already beat all the guys of the list in the past and it would be much easier for him to fight them in a gauntlet since his strenght would increase more and more.....no chance for his opponents if his power increases with his strenght

at level 11 DD would last 2 blows against this enraged hulk

"stan lee overrules all. and david wrecked hulk imho. he also did the writing where marko totalled the ridiculous prof hulk. thanos himself is dubious in regards to battling hulk. that in itself speaks volumes"

Nonsense. His opinion is valid like any other writer. David like it or not is The modern Hulk writer. That was saw printed. Its there. Also lets not get carried away, the Marvel Lee wrote isent the same now. Other characters wer created, the universe changed. Its cannon and apllies.

Not to mention there was nothing that Lee wrote that suggested Hulks emotions being limitess, otherwise David wouldnt had used that approach.

"ashamed?? of the losses you mentioned? klattu would ko any of these guys. using magic thor has been able to beat hulk."

Correct. Thor using magic has beat him. Without it has either stalemated him or had Hulk have the upperhand. Hulk never decisely beat him or trashed him like you said in your first post. Want a recent example of Thor winning due to magic and until then stalemating Hulk in strenght? Last hero standing #5.

"using votes supes has"

I dont count those. The ones that werent voted, they wer matched. Both having - again- uppherhands at different times. The only difference is if Supes uses all his powers Hulk will never win a majority.

" punked glads "

If he just had punked him would be ok. A slugfest its his game. However that story has a bad taste by the fact Hulk finished him for the win using a weakness he never knew until then and didnt had the intlect to ever figured out.

"herc has never been able to do anything better than a stalemate"

Hulk has never been able to do anything better than a stalemate. Same thing.

"the list of heroes or villains who have beaten hulk in simple 1on1 brawls in practically nonexistent"

Bullocks. Graviton owned him like everyone else. Ultron broke his leg. Enchantress killed him once. Abomination beat him once. Thanos beated him twice. Namor beat him twice, Apocalypse restrained him once. Black Bolt won every single fight aganst Hulk. Surfer beat him also. Just because (and i know its true) some people tend to underrate Hulk because of his "limited powerset" doesnt mean you should overrate Hulk in return. He has his shair of loses like everyone else.

"nope. supes distinctly says that dd is hitting him harder. still not sure of the context regrading what you say supes said. haven't checked."

Last chapter. After he breaks one of his bones, something that until that point he was unable of.

"i hope not because help saved sas's arse in that fight - he was about to be slaughtered then intelligent hulk showed up and put a pounding wendigo faring FAR better than sas did. at the end, they did team up, but even langkowski himself recalls the beating hulk gave him and wonders if even HULK is strong enough to beat wendigo. clearly sas wasn't, nor was he shown to be near hulk-level."

Even with his original strenght level, Sasquatch was never a vicious figther. In that fight he evens states how he notices Hulk enjoys it (even intelligent) and says back that he doesnt enjoy it. The point is none alone could beat Wendigo. Wich by the way was the second time Hulk needed help. Remember the first fight with Wolverine?

"hulk wasn't 'afraid' of the hammer. he said that's why he never finished thor off. and he was right. hulk pummeled him at the end, and had thor tossed the hammer away again, hulk would have finished him"

He wasent afraid? Thats why he resorted to grabbing a victim and treated to kill her, to make Thor take the hammer away so the fight could be more a evenly one? Wich was the point. Without the hammer Thor doesnt have the - advantage-. Without Mjolnir theres no edge. Its the same as Captain Marvel and Superman. With magic Marvel has the advantage/edge over Supes. Without it theyr evenly matched. Thats means either can win.

"his blows weren't rocking the city around him like they were when he fought onslaught, so clearly he wasn't as strong as he could get"

He didnt fought Onslaught in a city. Not that i recall. And theyr fight wasent trashing the city? Really? No buildings went down? No train was wrecked? No walking park was destroyed? No supermarkets? The people werent running to save theyr lives? Nothing?

And as a nitpick. Both Thor and hulk destroyed Onslaught armour in that saga.

"he even peacefully declined continuing the fight because he knew (and readers did, which was why the issue caused a great controversy at the time) finally who truly was the stronger"

See the post above the last one.

<<Its cannon and apllies.>>

so is lee's opinion. choose your cannon. i'll choose lee everytime.

<<Hulk never decisely beat him>>

that beating in 385 was completely decisive. why do you think so many were pissed. absolutely it was decisive.

<<Bullocks. Graviton owned him like everyone else. Ultron broke his leg. Enchantress killed him once. Abomination beat him once. Thanos beated him twice. Namor beat him twice, Apocalypse restrained him once. Black Bolt won every single fight aganst Hulk. Surfer beat him also. Just because (and i know its true) some people tend to underrate Hulk because of his "limited powerset" doesnt mean you should overrate Hulk in return. He has his shair of loses like everyone else.>>

not one opf those except abom have beaten him in a slugfest. namor did as well - underwater. as i said - almost nonexistent.

<<Even with his original strenght level, Sasquatch was never a vicious figther. In that fight he evens states how he notices Hulk enjoys it (even intelligent) and says back that he doesnt enjoy it. The point is none alone could beat Wendigo. Wich by the way was the second time Hulk needed help. Remember the first fight with Wolverine?>>

all irrelevent - you said he wa sin hulk's class. he wasn't and never was.

<<Wich was the point. Without the hammer Thor doesnt have the - advantage-. Without Mjolnir theres no edge. Its the same as Captain Marvel and Superman. With magic Marvel has the advantage/edge over Supes. Without it theyr evenly matched. Thats means either can win.>>

afraid? you must be kidding. maestro hulk fought him forever with that hammer, and there were many other opportunities. supes and marvel are not equals with or without magic. with magic thor can win - without hulk wins.

<<And as a nitpick. Both Thor and hulk destroyed Onslaught armour in that saga. >>

no they didn't. thor took advantage of a crack created by others. hulk demolished in to his own. and read the battle again - their fight was monstrous and the effects were awesome.

you're not changing my opinion, apparently i'm not changing yours. though i'm not sure what yours is.

"so is lee's opinion. choose your cannon. i'll choose lee everytime"

Wich doesnt matter since Lee never wrote Hulk with limitess emotions. Have any Lee statemnet that proves Hulks emotions being limitess? Yes, no.

In the end, its cannon, didnt took anything back of what Lee wrote and its recent. Thats all one needs to know.

"that beating in 385 was completely decisive. why do you think so many were pissed. absolutely it was decisive. "

Doesnt interest me if many wer pissed. The fight shows and was written as Thor having always an advantage due to the hammer and without it having to resort to a more even match. When they wer destroying the city ( something you said they didnt ) Thor wasent fighting with the hammer. In the end Thor was more bruised. Yes. And Hulk was frustated because Thor without the hammer still wouldnt stay down.

It was an even match with the upperhand for Hulk. Theres others where Thor did the same and slighty better even. And others worse.

"all irrelevent - you said he wa sin hulk's class. he wasn't and never was."

He was in his original strenght level. He isent at present continuity. I already discussed both levels.

"not one opf those except abom have beaten him in a slugfest. namor did as well - underwater. as i said - almost nonexistent."

Abom, Apoc, Namor, Black bolt, Hulk Killer Humanoid, The villain of the recent Marvel team up, another one that impressioned all Marvels heroes and had Thor, Colossus and Hulk between others going against him and they all lost. (wich Silver surfer won in the end).

Almost nonexistent would be if he only lost twice. Like Warlock for example. Or even less like Black Bolt.

"afraid? you must be kidding. maestro hulk fought him forever with that hammer, and there were many other opportunities. supes and marvel are not equals with or without magic. with magic thor can win - without hulk wins. "

Your probably running out of arguments. What has Maestro to do with regular Hulk. Yes, afraid. He made a hostage and treated to kill her so Thot trew the hammer away. Thats fear.

Supes and Marvel are equals. Always wer since pre crisis. About Superman admiting that Marvel with magic has the upperhand, you have one example in Superman/Batman #4.

"no they didn't. thor took advantage of a crack created by others. hulk demolished in to his own. and read the battle again - their fight was monstrous and the effects were awesome"

Read your own words first. You said no other was able to open his armour. Thats what Thor did, a crack isent an open armour is it?

About the effects, you didnt read me saying they didnt had any. What you read me answering was your quibble, about that fight that you say Thor lost (even when he was standing up until the end) didnt producced any damage. And i asnwered back.

If both happened in a city its irrevelant. I only replied that i didnt recalled the Onslaught fight with Hulk being in a city. And then my opinion against yours about the other that actually happened in that envyorment.

Btw. Onslaught its another that won a slugfest against Hulk.

"you're not changing my opinion, apparently i'm not changing yours. though i'm not sure what yours is."

Not overrating Hulk too much for a start.

People here seem to think that the Hulk's strength is activated by rage alone - If you knew anything about what the Hulk's psyche is actually based on, it has at times been referred to as child like or the "ID" - the fear of losing or being shown not to be the strongest would more than adequatley "amp" the Hulk's strength to untold degree's. This argument of "but his rage is not limitless" is meaningless when you consider we are talking about a person with SEVERE mental disorders, who has so much repressed emotion he has at least 10 potential different incarnates of the Hulk.

I'm afraid raw emotion is one asset the Hulk will NEVER fall short on - whether it be rage, fear, jealousy, resentment etc.

"People here seem to think that the Hulk's strength is activated by rage alone "

No. But the idea the comics give are that its the rage that - increases it to levels above - .

Gamma radiation and a specific pshyche created the Hulk and the limitess strenght " dimension" he carries inside him.

The means to get there are however with rage. Thats why you have some versions weaker like Joe fixit and others stronger like Mindless.

Then you have potential versions like the Devil Hulk (said to possibly be the most powerful incarnation) who would not solely rely on rage/anger for power increase - from what we know of the Devil Hulk he is at least of Human intelligence if not greater.

"Then you have potential versions like the Devil Hulk (said to possibly be the most powerful incarnation) who would not solely rely on rage/anger for power increase"

Wich so far we saw practically nothing.

Hulk being intelligent or not isent the issue. He can be intelligent and increase his strength with rage. Savage Hulk already did this before. Right after the fight against Wendigo with the help of Sasquatch way back.

On the other hand you have the Professor who was intelligent but didnt had the rage increase. What happened then? He was a pure class 100 brick guy without means of going higher.

"No. But the idea the comics give are that its the rage that - increases it to levels above - ."

Not neccessary - The Hulk does not rely soley on rage for strength increase although it is by far the most potent factor. Like I have already stated there are MANY other emotions that could easily lead to a strength increase. The fact if the Hulk would know that his current strength level is not enough to overcome a particular foe would be enough to trigger an increase.
The fact that he actually believes (always again due to the "ID" factor) himself to be the strongest means any obstacle he faces will eventually be overcome.
Most fighters gradually tire throughout a battle - the Hulk is one of the few who actually gets stronger and stronger throughout.

Originally posted by Grammaton
"No. But the idea the comics give are that its the rage that - increases it to levels above - ."

Not neccessary - The Hulk does not rely soley on rage for strength increase although it is by far the most potent factor. Like I have already stated there are MANY other emotions that could easily lead to a strength increase. The fact if the Hulk would know that his current strength level is not enough to overcome a particular foe would be enough to trigger an increase.
The fact that he actually believes (always again due to the "ID" factor) himself to be the strongest means any obstacle he faces will eventually be overcome.
Most fighters gradually tire throughout a battle - the Hulk is one of the few who actually gets stronger and stronger throughout.
hulk gets stronger but he does also tire

Umm u do realise that as well as his strength - his durability, healing/regeneration also increase?

It has been said that the angrier he gets - the harder he becomes to hurt.

The Hulk seldom (if ever) tires for the task at hand.

"Not neccessary - The Hulk does not rely soley on rage for strength increase although it is by far the most potent factor. Like I have already stated there are MANY other emotions that could easily lead to a strength increase"

Not sure i agree totally. He uses rage to do it, that has been showed and stated. He doesnt increase his strenght with emotions of a different nature than anger for high levels (thats what im discussing here). Because small increases like adreline boosts, everyone has.

But rage allows him not just an adreline boost. Thats the gig. The angrier he gets the stronger he becomes. I particullary dont feel fear or jealously increases him. Unless they go towards the rage aspect/nature.
And with that we practically get back to where we started.

"Most fighters gradually tire throughout a battle - the Hulk is one of the few who actually gets stronger and stronger throughout."

Most definatly, thats one of the things that makes him formidable. There are only a few others i never saw getting tired. Immortal Herc and Classic Juggernaut. Of the top tier of course, above its another matter.

"hulk gets stronger but he does also tire"

No. If Hulk has the powerset that allows him to use the rage increase factor everything on him increases in the same proportion.

Originally posted by leonidas
in a pure brawl, hulk's strength will continually increase until he is stronger than anyone. that as stated by marvel and stan lee. all these opponents with 2 exceptions have finite strength. hulk RARELY loses in slugfests - usually stalemates in short fights. it took about a dozen avengers to actually ko hulk. who knocked hulk cold with 3 punches?

hulk would eventually beat all of these opponents in a brawl except doomsday who can increase his own strength to match hulk's - as he was becoming stronger to battle superman. the other one who might match him by increasing strength would be drax WITH the power gem. he too would have a limitless well of strength to draw on. these would likely stalemate hulk. the gem i suppose COULD grant drax greater strength than even hulk could reach, but since hulk's strength defies physical limitations (as stated by stan lee himself) im not sure about that.

glads and supes COULD beat him, but it would require brains and use of powers other than their strength. they would lose in pure brawls as would the others.

juggs is another question. i think theoretically hulk's strength could grow to the point where it would surpass cytorrak's influence, but that's just speculation.

hulk has crushed sasquatch and thor w/o his hammer in the past. fights against herc have been inconclusive but given time hulk would become too strong and take him.

hulk truly is 'the strongest one there is!'

Drax doesn't need power gem to have infite strength like hulk he to can get stronger.

Power gem is over kill.

Drax is dumb, but he was strong enough to k.o champion with one hit ( with power gem)

"Drax doesn't need power gem to have infite strength like hulk he to can get stronger."

Good call. Forgot about Drax, and he never displayed the "ability " of getting tired, before in a fight either.

Of course id consider him a step above the top tier but still.

<<Wich doesnt matter since Lee never wrote Hulk with limitess emotions. Have any Lee statemnet that proves Hulks emotions being limitess? Yes, no. >>

when he says hulk's strength is limitless, it is implied. david whom you are quoting weakened and depowered the hulk. lee's impression of the hulk is the classic one and no where prior to david's character's statement does it say his 'emotion' is limited. if it IS limited, how did he gain enough strength to break the matter/antimatter law of physics? it takes literally infinite strength to achieve that act. how does he gain strength? through anger/frustration. how does he gain the strength to accomplish an impossible feat requiring infinite strength? by becoming infinitely frustrated or angry. the same goes for holding a mountain range! when banner's mind can't handle his own anger he becomes hulk. his anger continues to mount and mount and hulk acts as an infinite outlet for that continually mountin anger. i really don't see why you're debating the point. its been that way for 40 years. THAT'S all one needs to know.

<<When they wer destroying the city ( something you said they didnt ) Thor wasent fighting with the hammer. In the end Thor was more bruised. Yes. And Hulk was frustated because Thor without the hammer still wouldnt stay down.>>

they smacked each other into buildings. against oslaught the FORCE of their blows connecting rocked the city. last point on this because you're apparently the only one who doesn't want to acknowledge hulk clearly won that fight. and if you think he was as strong against thor as he was against onslaught . . . well, (shrugs)

<<Abom, Apoc, Namor, Black bolt, Hulk Killer Humanoid, The villain of the recent Marvel team up, another one that impressioned all Marvels heroes and had Thor, Colossus and Hulk between others going against him and they all lost. (wich Silver surfer won in the end).>>

your examples are idiotic for the third time. apoc HELD hulk - prof hulk of all things - THERE WAS NO FIGHT!! we don't even know HOW he held him? did he sneak up on him? abom was an aberration hulk has destroyed him too many times to refute - again. bb didn't beat him in a fist fight - bb used other powers. the android is stupid. again. i have no idea what you are trying to say with the rest of that paragraph. and in 40 years those couple are what you came up this?? yeah, almost nonexistent. and i don't care what other heroes lost fights. not sure why you bring it up.

<<ur probably running out of arguments. What has Maestro to do with regular Hulk. Yes, afraid. He made a hostage and treated to kill her so Thot trew the hammer away. Thats fear.>>

and you probably never read the issue or you wouldn't ask the question. hulk and thor have fought at least 10 times i can remember. because hulk was pissed and wanted to fight thor once without a hammer you call that one time fear. and I'M running out of arguments? use what is generally portrayed of a character. if you think hulk is afraid of thor and his hammer, well, again there's little help fo you. read more of their battles.

<<pes and Marvel are equals. Always wer since pre crisis. About Superman admiting that Marvel with magic has the upperhand, you have one example in Superman/Batman #4.>>

you're wrong, they're near equals, but i'll not debate that in this thread.

<<Read your own words first. You said no other was able to open his armour. Thats what Thor did, a crack isent an open armour is it?>>

what?? hulk broke the armor alone. thor coudln't. thor needed OTHERS to open it for him first. whoopee, he broke what was already open. i said i before - thor was ineffectual against onslaught - hulk was not. and there was a reason hulk went in to battle 1on1 and not thor. and i already told you - onslaught did NOT ko hulk. the resulting energy blast that happened when hulk shattered his armor is what ko'd hulk. NOT onslaught's punching.

<<Not overrating Hulk too much for a start.>>

he deserves to be overrated in his strength. he does things no one else in marvel or dc can do. he would beat all of these guys except guys who can tap infinite sources of strength. will some put up fights? of course. would hulk win in the end? yes.

<<But rage allows him not just an adreline boost. Thats the gig. The angrier he gets the stronger he becomes. I particullary dont feel fear or jealously increases him. Unless they go towards the rage aspect/nature.
And with that we practically get back to where we started.>>

yes they do. hulk was jealous of in the jarella story arc. and a jealous hulk was enormously strong. of course jealousy leads to anger. so does fear. ALL these emotions make him stronger. if they all lead to anger, so be it. they still make him stronger. even when hulk fought pre-c supes each blow he landed became geometrically more powerful as his anger grew. it would have continued to do so until he became as strong as he needed to be - and if a task requires infinite strength? he STILL achieves it. which should be impossible according to you. how does he achieve infinite/physcially impossible strength if as you claim his anger, which feeds his strength, is limited?

<<Drax doesn't need power gem to have infite strength like hulk he to can get stronger.
Power gem is over kill.
Drax is dumb, but he was strong enough to k.o champion with one hit ( with power gem)>>

really? didn't know drax could increase his strength without the gem. thought his level was set, just set very high. does he use cosmic power to increase it?

leonidas your points are sound, olympian seems to have a problem with hulks character and limitless strength potential. the fact is thats what hulk is, ive explained his character so clearly time and again yet people still seem to argue against their own version of what hulk is

<<leonidas your points are sound, olympian seems to have a problem with hulks character and limitless strength potential. the fact is thats what hulk is, ive explained his character so clearly time and again yet people still seem to argue against their own version of what hulk is>>

thanks tg. i was beginning to think it was just me. i mean giving apoc a WIN because he HELD prof hulk for a second . . .

"when he says hulk's strength is limitless, it is implied"

What is implied its exactly this. He increases strenght with rage to levels above the other heroes. Doesnt say his rage his limitess, just that his strenght is.

"david whom you are quoting weakened and depowered the hulk"

And also wrote Savage Hulk and created M a e s t r o. Not to mention writting Professor manhandling opponents, that the Savage Hulk took time with or had more problems.

So much for weaklings.

"lee's impression of the hulk is the classic one and no where prior to david's character's statement does it say his 'emotion' is limited"

Lee never stated rage to be limitess. Thats why the door was opened.

"if it IS limited, how did he gain enough strength to break the matter/antimatter law of physics? it takes literally infinite strength to achieve that act."

First because its his strenght that is limitess, not what fuels it. He got himself up to that level to perfom the necessary. However what you seem to forget is that he was losing it. Spiderman stated as much. He changed tactics because of that. Now bear with this litlle question. If his rage was also without any limit, and considering everything on him increases with his strenght, why would he ever lose it? Limitess rage would make him work all his potential of limitess strenght. He would never have to lose anything. He did.

"they smacked each other into buildings. against oslaught the FORCE of their blows connecting rocked the city. last point on this because you're apparently the only one who doesn't want to acknowledge hulk clearly won that fight. and if you think he was as strong against thor as he was against onslaught . . . well, (shrugs)"

You must have some reading problems. The only comment i made about the onslaught fight was if it was in a city or not since i didnt recall correctly. The other comment i made was that Thor and Hulk also made damages in the whole city they wer in. Thats it.

And tell me how you can "cleary win" when ur opponent still stands up while another is frustated because he doesnt a) give up b) admits the other is stronger 3) doesnt go down.

If anything and i already said this, Hulk had a clear upperhand in the end of the fight. Not a trashing.

"apoc HELD hulk - prof hulk of all things - THERE WAS NO FIGHT!! we don't even know HOW he held him"

http://www.comicboards.com/comicbattles/view.php?trd=020819153128&q=scans

Read the text. Hulk was restrained. He was struggling. And consider this was the event that made him War Hulk, was Hulk still professor at this time.
"abom was an aberration hulk has destroyed him too many times to refute - again""

That owned the Hulk in a slugfest.

"bb didn't beat him in a fist fight - bb used other powers"

None outside of his powerset. Hulk does have "powers" other than strenght, you know? Healing ability, increasing durability and being tireless the madder he gets. They wer fighting one on one and Hulk lost.

Wich isent something to cry foul at. BB has perhaps the best winning record at Marvel outside of Captain America. maybe more considering he has less appearances.

"the android is stupid. again"

Yeah..and? He beat him.

"have no idea what you are trying to say with the rest of that paragraph. and in 40 years those couple are what you came up this?? yeah, almost nonexistent. and i don't care what other heroes lost fights. not sure why you bring it up."

You didnt got it? One sec:

Translation = he was defeated in slugfets/battles outside his title. That other characters won.

"and you probably never read the issue or you wouldn't ask the question. hulk and thor have fought at least 10 times i can remember"

Yes, but not before that one.

"because hulk was pissed and wanted to fight thor once without a hammer you call that one time fear"

He was pissed because Thor with the hammer has the advantage.

Thor matched Hulk without hammer on other ocassion that i remember. In that fight we are talking about he cleary was with fear. Simple as crystal. But good to know you acnolowege it now.

"you're wrong, they're near equals, but i'll not debate that in this thread"

Bullocks. Give me an account when they werent portrait as equals or dont refute anything. Since pre crisis they win over the other and stalemate over and over again. And post crisis badly for you it was already stated his magic gives him an edge.

"what?? hulk broke the armor alone. thor coudln't. thor needed OTHERS to open it for him first."

I know that. But thats wasent what you state. You state no one else - opened it- . Nothing more. And Thor did.

"and there was a reason hulk went in to battl1on1 and not thor. "

Because Hulk was there as the main gun, and Thor wasent. Neither the rest of Avengers/X-Men that wer trying to get to the battle.

"- onslaught did NOT ko hulk. the resulting energy blast that happened when hulk shattered his armor is what ko'd hulk. NOT onslaught's punching. "

He tried to subdue Onslaught and couldnt. He punched him and got ko. This isent different than punching a "timestorm" and getting knocked out.

Hulk lost that slugfest. Its simple. He was down, the opponent wasent. No one else interfered in theyr battle.

"he deserves to be overrated in his strength. he does things no one else in marvel or dc can do"

Thats not what im contesting. Its the " he gets stronger than cosmic beings " that was never proven. Everytime he makes an impossible feat he either starts to lose it or pass out/gets ko. He has limitess strenght, he just cant use it since he limits itself.

And no one marvel or dc, post crisis so far.

"of course jealousy leads to anger. so does fear"

Thats what i said. Is there an echo in here? But there are emotions that dont. Therefore he cant use all to raise his strenght from the get go, since not all are negative and turn into rage.

In the end its still the rage that makes him go higher.

"how does he achieve infinite/physcially impossible strength if as you claim his anger, which feeds his strength, is limited?"

Because those feats he did werent stated to be impossible for other high beings. And everytime he reached those he didnt mantained for long or surpassed those levels. Theres a setback in all that. He has limitess strenght to use, but the emotion that trigs it is not of that nature.

"leonidas your points are sound, olympian seems to have a problem with hulks character and limitless strength potential. the fact is thats what hulk is, ive explained his character so clearly time and again yet people still seem to argue against their own version of what hulk is"

You dont explain anything. You type crapolla over and over again. Thats how much pll "listen" to you.

But there are some things you get it right. Sometimes.

If Hulk didnt depended of rage to use his strenght then he would be able to overcome anything.

Its not the case.

"thanks tg. i was beginning to think it was just me. i mean giving apoc a WIN because he HELD prof hulk for a second . . ."

Now he only did for a second? What more are you going to make up now.

I said Hulk was subdued physically and thats what happened. Enjoy the scans.

Edit:

"If Hulk didnt depended of rage -level- to use his strenght then he would be able to overcome anything."

and

"He tried to subdue Onslaught and couldnt. He punched him and got ko"

Consider only this one. The other would be more in the nature if Onslaught -wasent figthing- at all.

<<However what you seem to forget is that he was losing it.>>

prove he was losing it. i recall you said the same thing to cosmic cube and he also told you you were wrong and couldn't prove it. he thrust them apasrt and punched one away. and how did he get to that level per chance? i thought you said his rage powers his strength. if his strength is infinite, what it supplying it with impetus?

<<b) admits the other is stronger >>

case closed

<<None outside of his powerset. Hulk does have "powers" other than strenght, you know? Healing ability, increasing durability and being tireless the madder he gets. They wer fighting one on one and Hulk lost.>>

i said slugfest. strength v strength. no top hero other than thor (with hammer) and namor (underwater) have beaten him in a brawl. hulk has beaten most.

<<Translation = he was defeated in slugfets/battles outside his title. That other characters won. >>

never once said he couldn't be beaten. said he almost never loses in battles where it is a slugfest. glads and supes are capable of beating him, but not by standing toe-to-toe with him.

<<He was pissed because Thor with the hammer has the advantage.
Thor matched Hulk without hammer on other ocassion that i remember. In that one he was with fear. Simple as crystal. But good to know you acnolowege now the fear he had in that one.>>

yeah, he was terrified.

<<I know that. But thats wasent what you state. You state no one else - opened it- . Nothing more. And Thor did.>>

silly semantics when you knew exactly what i was saying. thor couldn't do it alone, hulk could.

<<He tried to subdue Onslaught and couldnt. He punched him and got ko. This isent different than punching a "timestorm" and getting knocked out.
Hulk lost that slugfest. Its simple. He was down, the opponent wasent. No one else interfered in theyr battle.>>

hulk battles a reality altering omega level telepath and smashes his armor letting lose a torrent of psychic energy and you say onslaught beat him in a slugfest? oh yeah . . . just answer this question: did onslaught ko hulk by punching him? here' i'll save you the time. no. hulk actually appeared teh STRONGER which given who and what onslaught was, is incredible. and had it not been for the fact that onslaught continually evolved eventually INTO the energy being ultimately responsible for ko'ing hulk, hulk would have won the battle.

<<Thats not what im contesting. Its the " he gets stronger than cosmic beings " that was never proven. Everytime he makes an impossible feat he either starts to lose it or pass out/gets ko. He has limitess strenght, he just cant use it since he limits itself.>>

nor disproven. do i think hulk could take galactus in a slugfest? ir's a silly question because it would never happen. can he do things with strength that defy physics and that no one else can do? yes. if rage is his fuel and his rage is limited how does he achieve limitless stength?

"how does he achieve infinite/physcially impossible strength if as you claim his anger, which feeds his strength, is limited?"

<<Because those feats he did werent stated to be impossible for other high beings. And everytime he reached those he didnt mantained for long or surpassed those levels. Theres a setback in all that. He has limitess strenght to use, but the emotion that trigs it is not of that nature.>>

for other high beings?? who cares if a celestial has the power to overcome a matter/antimatter attraction through uberpowerful cosmic power? what does that have to do with anything? lots of beings can do what hulk did but NOT via physical strength. nor does it matter if he maintains that level for long. once he's achieved what he needs to do, there is no more NEED to feel rage. and you contradict your own main point - he has limitless strength but the emotion that triggers it is not of that nature. how can he have one but not the other?? how does he achieve it as he did by doing what should have been impossible by anyone without reality altering power (because in the physical universe we live in it IS impossible)??

<<Now he only did for a second? What more are you going to make up now.
I said Hulk was subdued physically and thats what happened. Enjoy the scans.>>

i couldn't care less if he was restrained for 3 hours. first apoc probably COULD restrain him - he can alter his shape however he wants. mr fantasic can also hold the hulk. so what? but more to the point - your entire apoc reference is utterly irrelevant since it was PROF hulk he held and not a hulk who could become stronger with rage.

the bottom line is this: apparently you contend hulk breaking the matter/antimatter barrier is not an example of limitless strength. because if it was, he would clearly need an infinite fuel source upon which to draw to achieve that strenght and your whole point of a 'limit' on his emotions would be rendered moot. if you don't think it IS an example of limitless strength, i can't do much more to convince you, so believe what you'd like. people will read our points and make up their own minds.

<<Edit:
"If Hulk didnt depended of rage -level- to use his strenght then he would be able to overcome anything."
and
"He tried to subdue Onslaught and couldnt. He punched him and got ko"
Consider only this one. The other would be more in the nature if Onslaught -wasent figthing- at all.>>

olympian, i have no idea what you're trying to say here. hulk never went in there with the idea of 'subduing' anyone, but of beating him. in part at least, he succeeded. the ENERGY that ko'd him was 'untouchable' according to reed and in that form onslaught was even MORE powerful than he had been.

again olympian u dont understand comics. hulk will have to lose slugfests from time to time, it shows his characters vulnerable side, also allows others in mu to be able to show they are strong. however, hulk has limitless strength its a fact and dont go bringing up pad as every email, quote i ve read states that physically there is nothing hulk hasnt got the potential to be able to do. beat namour in water, yup, his character can, though he wouldnt be written doing this, hurt juggie, yup, again maybe wouldnt be written doing this, etc etc. hulk has no cap to his limitless power thats how he was created. to be the one guy that just says right you might be stronger, or unliftable etc but look what happens when i get madder, i smash. if u want quotes, the leader stands back astonished when sapping hulks power to realise there is no end to it. ( this has happened multiple times to multiple characters). also hulk encyclopedia, hulk draws his vast strength from an unknown and limitless source, sometimes regarded as a whole universe itself. ( thats how comics regard infinite) these are hulk facts yet time and again your whole essay of an answer disregards this and once u disregard it the reat is irrelevant.

"prove he was losing it."

Spiderman says so. Its stated. Thats the why abouta asking Hulk to punch one of the orbs away.

"And tell me how you can "cleary win" when ur opponent still stands up while another is frustated because he doesnt a) give up b) admits the other is stronger 3) doesnt go down."

+

"case closed"

Read again. The points i made er what Hulk wanted to happen, and wer never stated.

"i said slugfest. strength v strength. no top hero other than thor (with hammer) and namor (underwater) have beaten him in a brawl. hulk has beaten most."

A slugfest has also agility and skills besides strenght. But ok. Take Hulk reage increasing since its an ability of his powerset like the scream is to BB.

"never once said he couldn't be beaten

In some posts it sure sems like it. And Hulk will and can be beaten in a slugfest by other heroes. Just never the majority. As you know he doesnt get into high levels all fights.

"silly semantics when you knew exactly what i was saying. thor couldn't do it alone, hulk could"

Dont state semantics in the first place.

"nor disproven. do i think hulk could take galactus in a slugfest? ir's a silly question because it would never happen. can he do things with strength that defy physics and that no one else can do? yes. if rage is his fuel and his rage is limited how does he achieve limitless stength?"

Tell me this, if it was never disaproven then why you use Hulk limitess strengh with these beings as a certainity? A little silly wouldnt you say. Celestials and Galactus at full power wer never stated or shown not to be able to do those kind of feats either. Theres no certain. I give the edge even in strengh to the others because they already start much higher and can amp themselves.

Not to mention theres another statement by Ashema in the heroes returning from the " heroes reborn reality" to the main one, about Celestials being infinite.

And my beef is when Hulk reaches high levels he doesnt surpass those.

"for other high beings?? who cares if a celestial has the power to overcome a matter/antimatter attraction through uberpowerful cosmic power? what does that have to do with anything?"

And doesnt ubercosmic power increases strenght Isent what Surfer and heralds do and they are in the low chain of the cosmic beings at Marvel.

"nor does it matter if he maintains that level for long. once he's achieved what he needs to do, there is no more NEED to feel rage. and you contradict your own main point "

The main point being that in the orbs feat his job wasent finished. He was helding its own but was about to lose it. The orbs werent separated as intended. Just apart some inches. thats the reason - why- Spiderman tells him to stop doing it and punch one back before the inevitable happens. There was also the fear that sonner or later he would tire.

"i couldn't care less if he was restrained for 3 hours. first apoc probably COULD restrain him - he can alter his shape however he wants. mr fantasic can also hold the hulk. so what? but more to the point - your entire apoc reference is utterly irrelevant since it was PROF hulk he held and not a hulk who could become stronger with rage. "

Any scan that proves that was Prof Hulk? He doesnt look the part.

Either way its an example i gave of someone overpowering Hulk. Professor Hulk or not he has been overspowered and defeated.

What do you say about the recent defeated of Savage Hulk in the Team up #11 on a slugfest?

"the bottom line is this: apparently you contend hulk breaking the matter/antimatter barrier is not an example of limitless strength. because if it was, he would clearly need an infinite fuel source upon which to draw to achieve that strenght and your whole point of a 'limit' on his emotions would be rendered moot"

I dont contend he has limitess strenght. I contend that he doesnt reach those levels because of limitations on itself. His emotions.

Not to mention theres a statement by a writter, not refuted yet by others that says his rage by the Savage isent limitess.

Thats my view of things, we agree to disagree. Good debate in any case.

"again olympian u dont understand comics. hulk will have to lose slugfests from time to time, it shows his characters vulnerable side,"

If writers come up with this, how are they suposse to show he doenst have - any character - limitations like you claim.

"beat namour in water, yup, his character can, though he wouldnt be written doing this, hurt juggie, yup, again maybe wouldnt be written doing this, etc etc. hulk has no cap to his limitless power thats how he was created"

You contradit yourself.

"u want quotes, the leader stands back astonished when sapping hulks power to realise there is no end to it. ( this has happened multiple times to multiple characters"

Then multiple characters can beat him in a slugfest. Or your intending to say all of what the writers put down, isent to be taken seriously.

How should we take the no limitations serioulsy then? More important how should we take it serious if its not showed.

A great paradox here, isent it.

"also hulk encyclopedia, hulk draws his vast strength from an unknown and limitless source, sometimes regarded as a whole universe itself."

Handbooks and encyclopedias doesnt matter to what its show in comics. Yes ive seen it stated his - strenght - is limitess. Ive already said it.

"these are hulk facts yet time and again your whole essay of an answer disregards this and once u disregard it the reat is irrelevant."

Ponctuation.

<<A slugfest has also agility and skills besides strenght. But ok. Take Hulk reage increasing since its an ability of his powerset like the scream is to BB.>>

you are being deliberately obtuse. ss's power cosmic is also in his 'skill set' but that is also not what i'm talking about. you haven't named a top tier hero outside thor with magic and namor underwater who's beaten hulk in a brawl and without the use of powers other than strength. that is the issue - strength. not if he can be defeated by powers other than strength.

<<"silly semantics when you knew exactly what i was saying. thor couldn't do it alone, hulk could"
Dont state semantics in the first place.>>

huh? my statement is and was very concrete: hulk could break the armor on his own. thor could not. explain to me how that is semantical?

<<Tell me this, if it was never disaproven then why you use Hulk limitess strengh with these beings as a certainity? A little silly wouldnt you say. Celestials and Galactus at full power wer never stated or shown not to be able to do those kind of feats either. Theres no certain. I give the edge even in strengh to the others because they already start much higher and can amp themselves. >>

you're really reaching. the question should be this: is it theoretically possible for hulk to accomplish any feat of STRENGTH that these others could accomplish SANS cosmic power? and the answer to that is yes. theoretically. can these others do more or things hulk CAN'T do? obviously. they have much broader powers. if a celetial took human form and they had a simple lifting competition or an armwrestle it is theoretically possible hulk could match it.

<<Either way its an example i gave of someone overpowering Hulk. Professor Hulk or not he has been overspowered and defeated.>>

prof or not, eh. doesn't matter you say? since prof doesn't get stronger, and we're discussing a character who DOES, i'd say that renders him rather irrelevent to the discussion.

<<There was also the fear that sonner or later he would tire.>>

never said his endurance was limitless. losing it . . . sigh

<<I dont contend he has limitess strenght. I contend that he doesnt reach those levels because of limitations on itself. His emotions.>.

these points of yours are mutually incompatible. what good is limitless strength without the fuel to reach it? whether you say he was 'losing it' with the orbs or not, what he did was supposed to be physically impossible. how does he do this impossible feat without infinite fuel - ie rage? you can't adequately answer the question because there IS no adequate answer.

<<Not to mention theres a statement by a writter, not refuted yet by others that says his rage by the Savage isent limitess.>>

the orbs feat puts the lie to this because to reach infinite/impossible strength he needs infinite/impossible rage.

<<Thats my view of things, we agree to disagree. Good debate in any case.>>

agreed.

"huh? my statement is and was very concrete: hulk could break the armor on his own. thor could not. explain to me how that is semantical?"

No Leonidas. You said that no one else broke the armour. You didnt spicified anything else. If you had, i would agree. And i do.

"you are being deliberately obtuse. ss's power cosmic is also in his 'skill set' but that is also not what i'm talking about. you haven't named a top tier hero outside thor with magic and namor underwater who's beaten hulk in a brawl and without the use of powers other than strength. that is the issue - strength. not if he can be defeated by powers other than strength."

You asked first about characters overall.

Heroes i concead dont usually do it. Namor, Silver Surfer amping his strengh with pc its legit as Hulk amping his. And Black Bolt.

Black Bolt had like 3 fights against the Hulk. He didnt used his scream in all of them. He used agility, his strenght, his beams, his skills. Once again Hulk limites strenght wasent enought.

Black Bolt its one of the cases where the handbook ratings totally fail by what they write. In the issue where he knockes Gladiator out with a whisper close to the ear, he was shown matching muscle agaisnt him. He put the hurt using skills and strenght on Namor, punched the Thing back and forth more than once. Despise what handbook says hes not that below.

Yes heroes usually dont do it. Villains or other " gray " characters (Like Hulk Jones) do. I agree on that since your only talking about heroes here.

"these points of yours are mutually incompatible. what good is limitless strength without the fuel to reach it? whether you say he was 'losing it' with the orbs or not, what he did was supposed to be physically impossible"

The story stated it. Also has Spiderman saying " when he gets tired, wer done." If anything its the story itself thats contraditory.

" the orbs feat puts the lie to this because to reach infinite/impossible strength he needs infinite/impossible rage. "

No they dont. The story itself tells the reader Hulk will eventually fail. That even when the point was having the orbs far apart, Hulk while struggling and still doing the feat, was only helding its own. "Only" inches made as a difference between one orb and the other. Unlike what you said above, he didnt finished his "Mission" and was still using his rage. And Spiderman quickly changes tactics to stop the worse.

This is comic books. Impossible things are made all the time. Hulk reached the necessary level to do this one. Terrax has lived inside a black Hole. Herc and Thor generated strenght to knock a planet out of its orbit with a simple armwrestling match. Others wer sneezing and punching planets and galaxies. Those are impossible. Ridiculous. And so was that one of the Hulk.

In the end any real pshysical laws simply jobb to characters.

<<"Only" inches made as a difference between one orb and the other. Unlike what you said above, he didnt finished his "Mission" and was still using his rage. And Spiderman quickly changes tactics to stop the worse.>>

hulk still generated enough force with a punch to cause the seperation. what does it matter if he pushed them apart or not? punching them apart is no less impressive. also, the force necessary to knock a planet from orbit while large (but attainable by 2 gods) is still measureable - what hulk did required infinite/near infinite force. there are varying scales of impossible, as there are varying scales of infinity.

Its true, but generatting enought strenght to punch one orb away its not the same as separating two while in the middle of the attraction forces. Wich was what it was required and he was trying to do.

About the planet kicked out of orbit, it can teorically be measurable. Altho in real life isent that easy. I was merely trying to example the fact, that theres so many impossible things done by characters that physic laws in comics dont bear much weight. Not when one guy for example (and i like using this one because its the most ridiculous i could ever imagine) used to live in a black hole.

"there are varying scales of impossible, as there are varying scales of infinity."

Theres one. If you have infinity power already, how can it have a limit to another level. That wouldnt be infinity

Im not downplaying Hulk, i just have to be honest with what i think and see. Theres statements that go with what i say about his rage and levels. Ill go with Hulk having that dimension of limitess strenght stored inside him but, since he needs rage to use that strenght, there is a setback. Rage its a limited concept. In the end its my opinion that he sets its own limitation. As high that one is.

As for last, i might been overboard with Black Bolt. I went to check and the one i have he won by using his antena. Thing is i dont have the other fights and dont remember correctly. Did they slugged it out in any of them? I had in mind that they did.

I know he won all fights against Hulk, im just not sure if they ever actually traded blows.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
if its just a physical fight then he has the potential to go all the way. none of the others possesse limitless physical strength , and hulk can match and surpass these guys physically. might have a prob around the angry supes area as supes could well be written i dont know sucking in radiation from the sun to get stronger or something like that . wonder woman, hulk would bone her then eat her

Um I don't think he is beating superman, but that is just my opinion.

<<Theres one. If you have infinity power already, how can it have a limit to another level. That wouldnt be infinity>>

there are an infinite scale of infinities. half of infinity is still infinity but it is less than the full scale infinity. infinity + 1 is greater than infinity and infinity - 1 is still infinity but less than the 'full' infinity. scales of infinity are mathematical realities and are used in higher order math all the time. they are mathematical certainties. if you don't believe me, read for yourself. this is a simple example but explains what i mean perfectly:

http://beattie.info/notebook/1008254.html

like infinity, there are also varying scales of impossible. what's impossible for a gnat to lift is easy for me to lift. all depends on perspective.

living in a black hole is nothing in comics. basically you just need to be able to exceed light speed to stay away from the singularity and be able to escape at will.

as for black bolt - i remember the fight where he used the antennae. i've no idea about the others. and i'll still contend to perform an impossible feat as he did, he much have an infinite source of fuel - ie - rage, frustration. you're quibbling by saying it's somehow different standing in the middle of the 2 orbs than it is punching one away. regardless of his position or action, hulk needed to generate sufficient force from within himself to seperate the orbs. and ultimately seperating them was his goal, not shoving them apart - seperating them, however he could.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Theres one. If you have infinity power already, how can it have a limit to another level. That wouldnt be infinity>>

there are an infinite scale of infinities. half of infinity is still infinity but it is less than the full scale infinity. infinity + 1 is greater than infinity and infinity - 1 is still infinity but less than the 'full' infinity. scales of infinity are mathematical realities and are used in higher order math all the time. they are mathematical certainties. if you don't believe me, read for yourself. this is a simple example but explains what i mean perfectly:
]

Well done

Marvel did a nice example on this infinite crap.

Cubes < Celestials < Eternity < IG < LT

All have infite power but ones is better or stronger than the others.

<<Well done
Marvel did a nice example on this infinite crap.
Cubes < Celestials < Eternity < IG < LT
All have infite power but ones is better or stronger than the others.>>

thanks kg. and that is PRECISELY what i was getting at.

"living in a black hole is nothing in comics. basically you just need to be able to exceed light speed to stay away from the singularity and be able to escape at will"

In comics, none of the impossible cosmic forces are written as such. They all jobb.

"he much have an infinite source of fuel - ie - rage, frustration."

Hes only stated to have the infinity suplly i.e - strenght.

"you're quibbling by saying it's somehow different standing in the middle of the 2 orbs than it is punching one away."

But it is. Its not a matter of position, by punching one away he wasent overcoming the attraction of the two forces. If it was the same he would overcome what he was doing already. But it was a change of tactics.

"seperating them, however he could"

Well he didnt showed it. But im not getting upset or anything by this, i like this debate wich the two having different views I respect your opinion.

About the infinity scales. I can see the logic on it. His strenght his indeed infinity for me, its the rest i debate. I can see his infinity strenght being on a lower scale then say a Celestial. Thats only logical. The problem is that he needs something to fuel that we have no certain of being the same nature, while those "others" dont.

I need to stop hearing the word "infinity" for a week. i kid, i kid.

Ill check the other fights of Black Bolt out of curiosity if i manage to get them.

<<by punching one away he wasent overcoming the attraction of the two forces.>>

were the forces of attraction still bringing them together? yes
did hulk seperate them by punching one? yes
therefore hulk overcame the attractive force between them by generating enough force with a punch to send one . . . wherever he sent it. orbit or something.

if he stopped them from coming together, clearly he overcame the attractive force between them. doens't matter which 'tactic' he employed to do so.

given time and increasing rage, juggs and doomsday (the highest level doomsday) are the only ones who could stand up to hulk in this gauntlet. and drax with a gem only because i'm still not sure drax can increase his strength a la hulk.

olympian my ignorant apprentice i didnt contradict myself at all. just stated that in comics hulk cant be shown exploiting his limitless potential all the time or else he would never lose. perhaps if he was a bit part player like a classic juggie maybe, but hey he has his own comics to sell. u have to look at what hulk is capable of and done. he is capable of anything physically, thats what he is. and what he has done is pretty much evidence of his limitless strength /healing potentuial er thank u my little penal gland

"if he stopped them from coming together, clearly he overcame the attractive force between them. doens't matter which 'tactic' he employed to do so"

You cant have it both ways. Punching one of the orbs away its not overcoming the attraction force. Either he resisted -that- force or he failed and punched one away so there was no impossible/attraction force to be overcomed.

Lets leave it at that, its clear we read it different ways. Wich is fine by me.

"olympian my ignorant apprentice i didnt contradict myself at all.

Yes you did. And worst of me if i was your apprentice. r-e-a-d.

"just stated that in comics hulk cant be shown exploiting his limitless potential all the time or else he would never lose. perhaps if he was a bit part player like a classic juggie maybe, but hey he has his own comics to sell"

Congratulations. You just defined -every- top hero. The best wishes in your nursery resident.

Use Spellcheck for the rest.

while hulk has potntial limitless strength, it remains just that. potential. against heavy hitters hulk often holds too much damage too quickly beofre he can go wild. hulk has been beaten several times before he "maxxed out". fist for fist, wonderwoman will clean his clock similar to what juggernaut did when he was in plainclothes and they fought in the amazon. and ww is stronger, faster, and a better fighter than juggs and hulk (at hulks base).

that was prof hulk - savage hulk laid a beating on juggs in an earlier encounter though he did not ko him. prof hulk also was overconfident and holding back not knowing who he was fighting.

<<You cant have it both ways. Punching one of the orbs away its not overcoming the attraction force. Either he resisted -that- force or he failed and punched one away so there was no impossible/attraction force to be overcomed.>>

why is punching something away not considered seperating them to you? by rights the blow should have been ineffectual and the orbs should have been drawn together regardless. whether he pushed them away or punched one away doesn't matter. the attractive force never left, the orb he punched was still being drawn to the other one. we'll leave it, that's fine, i just can't see how you're differentiating the accomplishments.

The writter doesnt seem to consider them the same either or he wouldnt have stated Hulk losing it and having Spiderman asking him to punch one away so that the main character would be safe. Its granted that if he had the strenght to move them inches apart, even he was failing while doing it, he had to punch an orb.

Wich was what happened. Orb away. No more attraction forces to deal with. Everyones safe.

And Leonidas, it is an accomplish. Just one i see where he reached a limit. We agree to disagree.