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who will prevail this clash of those two powerhouses

Kurse

Juggernaut.

stalemate.

Originally posted by Galan007
stalemate.

Originally posted by Galan007
stalemate.

probably stalemate. although if one gets tired or damaged it will be kurse, not juggernaut...

Ok. So... how can Kurse stop Juggernaut from getting some iron?

Originally posted by Survivor19
Ok. So... how can Kurse stop Juggernaut from getting some iron?

Is Iron conveniently placed around the battlefield?

How can Kurse stop Juggernaut from moving battlefield to the placewhere iron is conveniently lying around? I mean, just pushing Kurse to there...

What is the helmet and the bands around his hands made of? Prob not iron but it might be...

Well, like a hundred iron girders didn't really do anything.

Regular punches won't put down Kurse, and regular punches won't put down Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Well, like a hundred iron girders didn't really do anything.

Regular punches won't put down Kurse, and regular punches won't put down Juggernaut.

True but i think Kurse has a better chance to BFR Juggs then the other way around. Kurse 6/10

Kurse wins. While neither will be hurting the other, Kurse is considerably stronger than jugs and wins via BFR.

Originally posted by DarkOdin
True but i think Kurse has a better chance to BFR Juggs then the other way around. Kurse 6/10

Please explain. I've often wondered how people can honestly think one brick has a better chance of a BFR than another brick. Juggernaut can just as easily BFR Kurse if he wanted, he just wouldn't. He fights physically to a point where he's won the fight or it goes on long enough that he just gets bored and leaves.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Please explain. I've often wondered how people can honestly think one brick has a better chance of a BFR than another brick. Juggernaut can just as easily BFR Kurse if he wanted, he just wouldn't. He fights physically to a point where he's won the fight or it goes on long enough that he just gets bored and leaves.

They wont be BFring each other with punches. It doesnt really work like that in comics most time. It will depend on who can overpower whom and simply toss his opponent out of the battlefield. Similar to what hulk attempted to do to jugs in one of their fights.

Hulk's never beaten Juggernaut via BFR. I don't see BFR as a viable option here.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Hulk's never beaten Juggernaut via BFR. I don't see BFR as a viable option here.

Hence the reason i said hulk attempted to do. In that fight he wanted to throw jugs back to the army base but instead threw him into a mountain. ITs pretty viable here

Green Scar beat him through battle field removal although Xavier did distract him for a moment. Yea, Hulk almost won through battle field removal, when he spun him around and tossed him into those mountains.

In a fist fight? It's a stalemate. Kurse will be throwing him around easily but won't be able to harm him at all. If we include battle field removal Kurse wins. Although if Juggernaut activates his Force Field Kurse will be unable to get to him trully.

The point is Kurse doesn't have a better chance at BFR than the Juggernaut. I don't see BFR is a viable option in a brick vs. brick fight.

Actually Kurse does have a better chance at BFR. He is FAR stronger than juggernaut so when it comes to a grappling match he will easily overpower him

By what measure are you using to say he's FAR stronger than the Juggernaut?

At least 4 times as strong as thor who is himself at the very least on par with jugs strengthwise.

Oh, you're using the Beyonder amped Kurse in your argument. I wasn't aware that's the version the OP was using.

He never was shown to lose that amp.

^That's true as far as I recall.

Originally posted by Naija boy
He never was shown to lose that amp.

Goodness. Marginally being stronger than someone automatically gives them a better chance at a BFR? Kurse is listed at 840lbs. Juggernaut could literally one-punch him into another time zone.

Kurse doesn't have a better chance at a BFR than Juggernaut does. Regardless, I don't see either using that tactic.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Goodness. Marginally being stronger than someone automatically gives them a better chance at a BFR? Kurse is listed at 840lbs. Juggernaut could literally one-punch him into another time zone.

Kurse doesn't have a better chance at a BFR than Juggernaut does. Regardless, I don't see either using that tactic.

HE isnt marginally stronger than him. He is FAR stronger than him. Further resorting to the punch argument doesnt work. When bricks fight they are clearly able to brace themselves for punches and avoid being hit miles away if not each fight would be over with the first punch.

He's marginally stronger. Juggernaut was able to overpower the strongest Hulk we've seen to date.

From what I recall even barring the amp Kurse was already twice as strong as Thor from the get go...

^Yup.

In the end he was four times as strong. Kurse is far stronger than Juggernaut. To say otherwise is stupid.

He was amped once to be double than Thor then he was amped a second time to be 4 times stronger.

Juggernaut didnt overpower WWH at all. I dont know where u saw that. He pushed him back using his momentum (unstoppable enchantment) which is entirely different from his physical strength. Heck the fact that WWH nearly brought him to a halt (some argue he did) isnt the best of showings for him.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He's marginally stronger. Juggernaut was able to overpower the strongest Hulk we've seen to date.

Far stronger. His feats don't make that non debatable and he really didn't do anything that impressive that an angry of Savage Hulk could not in terms of strength. Just saying....

Originally posted by Naija boy
Juggernaut didnt overpower WWH at all. I dont know where u saw that. He pushed him back using his momentum (unstoppable enchantment) which is entirely different from his physical strength. Heck the fact that WWH nearly brought him to a halt (some argue he did) isnt the best of showings for him.

It was a test of strength. The author of that very story confirmed this.

from a physical standpoint, how in the hell do the kurse supporters expect him to get through juggy's force field? afterall, he'd have to get through that before he could ever get a chance to 'BFR' juggy.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
It was a test of strength. The author of that very story confirmed this.

Confirmed it where? Regardless as was shown on panel juggernaut was moving forward and that indicates it was another type of strength at work there and certainly not his brute physical strength beibng referred to here.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
It was a test of strength. The author of that very story confirmed this.

And he also contradicted that statement as well so that doesn't prove anything. He just answers what fans want from what I understand I've read.

I do believe it was a test of strength. But that's my believe personally.

Originally posted by Galan007
from a physical standpoint, how in the hell do the kurse supporters expect him to get through juggy's force field? afterall, he'd have to get through that before he could ever get a chance to 'BFR' juggy.

I was about to get to this. When was the last time jugs infamous forcefield was portrayed and how was it portrayed? Is it the source of his durablility? Or is it some external force outside of it. Further whats the nature of this forcefield, is it like a magneto/gl forcefield in the sense that its external or is it something that runs over the full length of his body. Then we have to question whether Jugs can grab a hold of others through his forcefield and vice versa.

Originally posted by Naija boy
I was about to get to this. When was the last time jugs infamous forcefield was portrayed and how was it portrayed? Is it the source of his durablility? Or is it some external force outside of it. Further whats the nature of this forcefield, is it like a magneto/gl forcefield in the sense that its external or is it something that runs over the full length of his body. Then we have to question whether Jugs can grab a hold of others through his forcefield and vice versa. most of the time juggy's FF is invisible, but here's a rare glimpse of what it actually looks like:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2126762_j0.jpg

so yes. one would have to get through it before they'd reach juggy's actual body. in kurse's case he'd have to do so physically - a feat i cannot possibly fathom happening.

---

as far as juggy being able to strike/grab with the FF up? yes he can:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2126763_j1.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2126764_j2.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2126765_j3.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
most of the time juggy's FF is invisible, but here's a rare glimpse of what it actually looks like:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2126762_j0.jpg

so yes. one would have to get through it, before they'd reach juggy's actual body. in kurse's case he'd have to do so physically - a feat i cannot possibly fathom happening.

---

as far as juggy being able to strike/grab with the FF up? yes, he apparently can:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2126763_j1.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2126764_j2.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2126765_j3.jpg

I knew this fight would be brought up. However going by this fight, isnt his FF the sole source of his durability? Many have talked about its innaccuracy in its portrayal of the FF. Is there any other fight where it was shown? further if this is the only fight then is this FF really a valid ability for jugs to employ since it would be the only time he has ever used it?Im asking this because if we are to assume that jugs FF is on but invisible in most of his fights then how do u explain all the times he has been hit/grabbed and such? They would automatically discredit this instance.

Originally posted by Naija boy
I knew this fight would be brought up. However going by this fight, isnt his FF the sole source of his durability? Many have talked about its innaccuracy in its portrayal of the FF. Is there any other fight where it was shown? further if this is the only fight then is this FF really a valid ability for jugs to employ since it would be the only time he has ever used it?Im asking this because if we are to assume that jugs FF is on but invisible in most of his fights then how do u explain all the times he has been hit/grabbed and such? They would automatically discredit this instance. juggy used it in his first two separate fights with thor.

and if we are using 'classic' juggernaut, the FF is part of his powerset. that much has never been argued in any forum battle involving 'classic' juggy. it's a tactic he could certainly employ here.

Originally posted by Galan007
juggy used it in his first two separate fights with thor.

and if we are using 'classic' juggernaut, the FF is part of his powerset. that much has never been argued in any forum battle involving 'classic' juggy. it's a tactic he could certainly employ here.

Thing is that in his fight with thor in thor 411-412, Thor was able to send him flying with a punch while the forcefield was up. That is just one of the many instances that contradict what happened in the instance in which thor couldnt touch juggernaut with the forcefield up. That incident would therefore be a misportrayal of jugs forcefield and hence invalid (as many already claim).

Originally posted by Naija boy
Thing is that in his fight with thor in thor 411-412, Thor was able to send him flying with a punch while the forcefield was up. That is just one of the many instances that contradict what happened in the instance in which thor couldnt touch juggernaut with the forcefield up. That incident would therefore be a misportrayal of jugs forcefield and hence invalid (as many already claim). thor physically moving juggy one time certainly doesn't contradict the other FF showings juggy has

ohh and the scans i posted aren't from 411-412, btw.

Originally posted by Galan007
thor physically moving juggy one time certainly doesn't contradict the other FF showings juggy has

ohh and the scans i posted aren't from 411-412, btw. He shrugged off the G-Blast?

Because I remember him being stopped and forced back from it...

Originally posted by Naija boy
Confirmed it where? Regardless as was shown on panel juggernaut was moving forward and that indicates it was another type of strength at work there and certainly not his brute physical strength beibng referred to here.

He confirmed it in a debate he was involved in on CBR. He stated that this wasn't like Peter Parker Spider-Man #84 called "Nothing stops the Juggernaut". He said Juggernaut was there specifically to kick Hulks ass so the unstoppability enchantment was never a factor. I provided the link to said CBR discussion in the revamped Juggernaut respect thread I recently finished. It's in the battle section under the Juggernaut/WWH fight.

As for this thread. There's absolutely no precedent for 1 purely physical brick to have a BFR advantage over another purely physical brick. For that to happen we'd have to be talking about hyper bricks like SA Mangog who's 12' tall and 3,500lbs or PC Validus who is some 15' tall. Both of these cats have the size and strength to easily swat someone like Juggernaut into the next time zone and, let's be honest, they probably would. They'd most likely consider Juggernaut to be a pest and wouldn't want to waste their time.

This fight is a stalemate as I said in my first post.

Originally posted by Blanket
He shrugged off the G-Blast?

Because I remember him being stopped and forced back from it...

He shrugged it off. Stopping him isn't damaging him.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He shrugged it off. Stopping him isn't damaging him. Getting the thing you're known for contradicted and being put on your heels isn't shrugging something off either.

Juggernaut doesn't mean you can be stopped via forward motion only. It means you can't be stopped period.

He stopped Juggernaut from advancing, yes. He didn't kill or even damage the Juggernaut in any way.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Juggernaut doesn't mean you can be stopped via forward motion only. It means you can't be stopped period.

He stopped Juggernaut from advancing, yes. He didn't kill or even damage the Juggernaut in any way. But he stopped him, and that is not Juggy's FF shrugging off an attack.

Originally posted by Galan007
thor physically moving juggy one time certainly doesn't contradict the other FF showings juggy has

ohh and the scans i posted aren't from 411-412, btw.

Those other FF showings arent in the same vein as what im talking about. The forcefield Slowing down the hammer actually shows that things can move through the forcefield as instead of simply stopping the hammer it gradually reduced its momentum as the hammer was passing thru. Also him shrugging off thors other attacks doesnt have anything to do with thor being able to touch him or not. (and the godblast did force him back)

I know. thats why i referenced the issue

Originally posted by Blanket
But he stopped him, and that is not Juggy's FF shrugging off an attack.

Yeah, he stopped him. Big deal. Tanking a blast that scared Galactus and damaged a Celestial is shrugging it off IMO.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Yeah, he stopped him. Big deal. Tanking a blast that scared Galactus and damaged a Celestial is shrugging it off IMO. k, his FF shrugged off the blast.

Pretty much just a shoulder shrug.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Tanking a blast that scared Galactus so this true then juggernaut more durable then the big G? i tought this wuz a joke or somethin some1 started on kmc

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He confirmed it in a debate he was involved in on CBR. He stated that this wasn't like Peter Parker Spider-Man #84 called "Nothing stops the Juggernaut". He said Juggernaut was there specifically to kick Hulks ass so the unstoppability enchantment was never a factor. I provided the link to said CBR discussion in the revamped Juggernaut respect thread I recently finished. It's in the battle section under the Juggernaut/WWH fight.

As for this thread. There's absolutely no precedent for 1 purely physical brick to have a BFR advantage over another purely physical brick. For that to happen we'd have to be talking about hyper bricks like SA Mangog who's 12' tall and 3,500lbs or PC Validus who is some 15' tall. Both of these cats have the size and strength to easily swat someone like Juggernaut into the next time zone and, let's be honest, they probably would. They'd most likely consider Juggernaut to be a pest and wouldn't want to waste their time.

This fight is a stalemate as I said in my first post.

First of all what the writer says in a casual discussion on a forum doesnt supercede what he portrays clearly on panel. Heck juggernauts own unstoppable momentum is what even lost the fight for him and how he got himself BFRed Hulk even remarks "nothing stops the juggernaut?keep on going". how the hell can he now say that the said enchantment was turned off in that fight? What is shown on panel >>>what is said in forum discussions with fans.

And secondly u keep ignoring what i posted. As ive stated before bricks simply squatting each other away DOESNT happen in comics as the characters are able to use their strength to brace themselves and avoid being sent flying miles away with evry punch. If not each fight between superstrong guys would be over with a single punch. Further this tactic im talking about was previously seen when hulk overpowered juggernaut (who had him a in a head lock) picked him up and attempted to throw him back to the military base after failing to hurt him. Kurse is far stronger than juggernaut and so overpowering him would be easy (which removes the ability to brace urself for the attack) and then tossing him away after doing so even easier.

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
so this true then juggernaut more durable then the big G? i tought this wuz a joke or somethin some1 started on kmc

Juggernaut is not as durable as an even remotely well fed galactus let alone more durable.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Juggernaut is not as durable as an even remotely well fed galactus let alone more durable. ok but then how come he can take the GB w/no prob and Galactus cant?

Juggernaut has been seen casually punching captain britain for what looks to be a mile, with ground being in the way the whole time. he literally gouged out the earth...


juggernaut has been seen hurtling thor across the sky with a casual backslap... yes a casual backslap.


he is JUST as capable of lifting kurse from the ground and THROWING HIM inot orbit.

if you are going by that ability alone its going to be 50/50


then again juggernaut could always just go trion (the trion stated that it was JUGGERNAUTS POWER) if he gets angry enough or p'od enough.

good luck kurse taking reality destroying punchs.

also, classic juggernaut also had offensive capabilities with his forcefield. not to mention he could cast magic spells also.

i'd say juggernaut has more than enough abilities to stalemate to say the least.

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
ok but then how come he can take the GB w/no prob and Galactus cant?

Galactus wa hungry and exhausted as well by thors own admission. Well fed G would never have that happen to him.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Galactus wa hungry and exhausted as well by thors own admission. Well fed G would never have that happen to him. ok

but wut about the celestial? iirc Thors GB put a hole in its head or somethin

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
ok

but wut about the celestial? iirc Thors GB put a hole in its head or somethin

The GBlast he used against the celestials was more powerful than the one he used against juggy. It was so powerful it shattered his hammer while it was reinforced with the belt of strength.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The GBlast he used against the celestials was more powerful than the one he used against juggy. ok that makes sense

now dat i think of it Thor wasnt in top shape in dat fight with Jugs

slatemate btw. they aint hurtin each other

Originally posted by Naija boy
First of all what the writer says in a casual discussion on a forum doesnt supercede what he portrays clearly on panel. Heck juggernauts own unstoppable momentum is what even lost the fight for him and how he got himself BFRed Hulk even remarks "nothing stops the juggernaut?keep on going". how the hell can he now say that the said enchantment was turned off in that fight? What is shown on panel >>>what is said in forum discussions with fans.

Do you know how to read properly? First off, how is it clear he was using his enchantment when he was pushing Hulk back? If he was, he'd be pushing Hulk back for yards and yards like he did War Hulk. War Hulk only stopped him because of his own enhancements by Apocalypse.

2nd off, the unstoppability wasn't in play when he sent Juggernaut running. Look carefully and you'll see that in one panel Juggernaut looks like he's merely tripping, the very next panel he's sent running when Hulk pushes in him the back.

What the writer says + what was shown on panel >>> your terrible intepretation.



Overpowering the Juggernaut isn't easy at any strength below high end cosmic. You keep saying Kurse is way stronger than Juggernaut yet you can't seem to back this up. Also, you're not listening to what I'm saying, potentially being stronger doesn't automatically give 1 brick a BFR advantage. Kurse was never portrayed as being particularly strategic. I don't see him going for a BFR even if he could.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The GBlast he used against the celestials was more powerful than the one he used against juggy. It was so powerful it shattered his hammer while it was reinforced with the belt of strength.

It was the same exact blast. Thor said so himself.

wait so Jug IS more durable then big G then?

Galactus was starving at the time and the blast didn't do anything to him except turn him away.

Seriously, do you read comics?

i ment the celestial (coudnt ****in edit)

u said Thor hit Jug & Exitar with same blast so this means your saying Jug more durable then a celestial?

Exitar barely noticed the blast. He stopped for a second and then went about his business. All it did was shatter the dome that protects his brain.

Was that the fight where Thor somehow did a little better then an Odin in the destroyer powered by all the asgardians and some other gods?

yah thats the point it damage him (not just a crack either) but not even a scratch on Jugs
if it wuz same blast then Jug durablity >>>>>> celestial durablity

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
yah thats the point it damage him (not just a crack either) but not even a scratch on Jugs
if it wuz same blast then Jug durablity >>>>>> celestial durablity

it didn't do nothing to the Juggernaut. It gave him vertigo.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Was that the fight where Thor somehow did a little better then an Odin in the destroyer powered by all the asgardians and some other gods?

Not reallly Thor did knock the Celetrial down however the destroyer easily cut of the arm of a celetrials. "even thou it grew back"

Damage isn't really relative to a lot of high end cosmic types.
Black Adam flew through Spectre's face one time, trying to attack him, but the damage to his material form means pretty much nothing.

Originally posted by Juntai
Damage isn't really relative to a lot of high end cosmic types.
Black Adam flew through Spectre's face one time, trying to attack him, but the damage to his material form means pretty much nothing. Spectre is a joke he jobbs left and right horriable example.

damage is important. as we haveseen Thor having to use a godblast to break into a celestrial armour. Where as the destroyer cut a whole freakin arm of it.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
it didn't do nothing to the Juggernaut. It gave him vertigo. lol. ok so it push him back but no scratch

and it break thru celestial armor

thatd still mean Jug durablity >>>>>> celestial

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Do you know how to read properly? First off, how is it clear he was using his enchantment when he was pushing Hulk back? If he was, he'd be pushing Hulk back for yards and yards like he did War Hulk. War Hulk only stopped him because of his own enhancements by Apocalypse.

2nd off, the unstoppability wasn't in play when he sent Juggernaut running. Look carefully and you'll see that in one panel Juggernaut looks like he's merely tripping, the very next panel he's sent running when Hulk pushes in him the back.

What the writer says + what was shown on panel >>> your terrible intepretation.


What? Ur logic is so laughably poor it shouldn event be classified as logic. Juggernauts unstoppability enchantment somehow wasnt in play because he was was having a hard time pushing him back? Are u freaking serious? Thats equivalent to saying that when juggernaut was stopped and pushed back by thors godblast his unstoppability enchantment wasnt in play because he got pushed back. Hence anytime jugs is slowed or encounters trouble pushing some object hiis enchantment must not be in play. Get that nonsensical no limits fallacy out of here. The fact that he was having trouble pushing back WWH isnt proof that his enchantment wasnt in play but rather that WWH provided alot of resistance to the enchantment. Bringing up War hulk is another irrelevant point. We know that War hulk had extra enhancements that enabled him to stop juggernaut. Hence when these enhancements kicked in (as seen by the green energy around hulk) he then stopped him. WWH however was going solely on strength and i dare u to prove that prior to the point where War hulks enhancements kicked in, he was stronger than WWH. Further to seal this nonsensical discussion i challenge u to provide concrete evidence that juggernaut can turn on and turn off his enchantments and at will (and show examples of this) which he would need to be able to do in order to for ur ridiculous theory to even be plausible. Since we know that when juggernaut starts moving forward his enchantment of unstoppability kicks in, u are claiming that it somehow did not kick in that situation which is only possible if juggernaut somehow was able to turn it off.

The second part of ur post doesnt prove anything at all. If anything it still shows that hulk used jugs unstoppable momentum against him. In one of the panels use jugs look like he was about to trip. This shows that there WAS forward momentum there and it wasnt just a stand still mercy contest. When hulk then hit his back is equivalent to when a person who is falling gets shoved and stumbles a few steps before finally falling to the ground. In this situation however, jugs momentum was so much that the when combined with the push from hulk it sent him into the river.

What the writer says in a forum discussion is irrelevant when it blatantly contradicts what he portrayed on panel.



lolwut? U think that making blanket unsupported statements like "overpowering juggernaut isnt easy at any strength below high end cosmic" in any way helps ur argument? I have continuously mentioned that Kurse is 4 times as strong as thor and hence that makes him far stronger than juggernaut. In ur recalcitrance uve pretended that u didnt see it. Not only that the only so called strength feat ur banking on which is the WWH thing isnt actually a strength feat and even if we were to go with the disengenous assumption that it was, it would put juggernaut nowhere near Kurse' strength level. If im two times as strong as u are, overpowering u will be pretty easy and if im 4 times as strong as u are it will be undoubtably even easier than that. So ur statement about overpowering juggernaut being difficult for any but high end cosmics is unsupported gibberish.

Moreover, ur the one who is continuously ignoring what ive said. I explained how a character being FAR stronger than his opponent would give him a BFR advantage. Did u attempt to disprove it?..... No. Did u provide any evidence to the contrary?...... No. Instead u simply repeated the same blanket claim that it doesnt give u an advantage without supporting it with anything.

Also u dont have to be strategic at all to know that if after hours of beating the hell out of someone the person isnt hurt its best to get the person the hell away from u and be done with it. Even freaking savage hulk realized this and he is mentally impaired. It might take a while but kurse will eventually realize its best to toss juggernaut out of his way.

I too believe that the Celestial godblast was more powerful.

It night be the same attack in nature but more power was used shown clearly by mjolnir's inability to endure

Originally posted by Galan007
from a physical standpoint, how in the hell do the kurse supporters expect him to get through juggy's force field? afterall, he'd have to get through that before he could ever get a chance to 'BFR' juggy.

There are what, 2 incidents of Juggernaut using his forcefield as actively as he did in his fight against Thor. There aren't many incidents where his forcefield magically stops punches from landing on him.

Damaging a celestial is a great feat but everyone knows You can't really hurt it like that.

The godblast Thor used on Galactus was connected to a machine or something, not the same as the one that struck the Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Warlord
I too believe that the Celestial godblast was more powerful.

It night be the same attack in nature but more power was used shown clearly by mjolnir's inability to endure eactly & that explain everythin better

Thor wuz tired in dat fight against Jug anyway

it wouldnt matter if he was tired or not... juggernaut is protected by the crimson bands of cyttorak. Dr. strange said on panel, that the crimson bands of cyttorak are the energy that holds the universe together (i'm not making that up)...


it would mean you would literally have to warp reality to hurt juggernaut physically. or be so physically strong you could warp realtiy (not really possible unless you are a high end cosmic user)...

thor wouldnt be capable of hurting a fully powered juggernaut. nor would kurse.

uh by the crimson bands??


btw shatterstar hurt him with dat sword

Crimson Bands of Cytorrak? That shit's been broken by Namor. The forces that hold the Universes together are really weak.

Originally posted by Blanket
Because I remember him being stopped and forced back from it... did the godblast harm juggy in any way/shape/form? nope. hell, it didn't even scratch him. though it may have *slightly* nudged him back, that doesn't change anything i said about him shrugging it off.

Originally posted by Naija boy
What? Ur logic is so laughably poor it shouldn event be classified as logic. Juggernauts unstoppability enchantment somehow wasnt in play because he was was having a hard time pushing him back? Are u freaking serious? Thats equivalent to saying that when juggernaut was stopped and pushed back by thors godblast his unstoppability enchantment wasnt in play because he got pushed back. Hence anytime jugs is slowed or encounters trouble pushing some object hiis enchantment must not be in play. Get that nonsensical no limits fallacy out of here. The fact that he was having trouble pushing back WWH isnt proof that his enchantment wasnt in play but rather that WWH provided alot of resistance to the enchantment. Bringing up War hulk is another irrelevant point. We know that War hulk had extra enhancements that enabled him to stop juggernaut. Hence when these enhancements kicked in (as seen by the green energy around hulk) he then stopped him. WWH however was going solely on strength and i dare u to prove that prior to the point where War hulks enhancements kicked in, he was stronger than WWH. Further to seal this nonsensical discussion i challenge u to provide concrete evidence that juggernaut can turn on and turn off his enchantments and at will (and show examples of this) which he would need to be able to do in order to for ur ridiculous theory to even be plausible. Since we know that when juggernaut starts moving forward his enchantment of unstoppability kicks in, u are claiming that it somehow did not kick in that situation which is only possible if juggernaut somehow was able to turn it off.

The second part of ur post doesnt prove anything at all. If anything it still shows that hulk used jugs unstoppable momentum against him. In one of the panels use jugs look like he was about to trip. This shows that there WAS forward momentum there and it wasnt just a stand still mercy contest. When hulk then hit his back is equivalent to when a person who is falling gets shoved and stumbles a few steps before finally falling to the ground. In this situation however, jugs momentum was so much that the when combined with the push from hulk it sent him into the river.

What the writer says in a forum discussion is irrelevant when it blatantly contradicts what he portrayed on panel.

None of this makes any sense.

You believe that Juggernauts unstoppability enchantment is on all the time? The moment he moves he's automatically unstoppable? Are you retarded? How the hell does he ever sit down then or lean up against something? How does he ever walk up a flight of stairs? His unstoppability enchantment is something he wills on and off like his armor and helmet or like how he can amp his strength.

Also, the War Hulk thing is very relevant. You have what is already arguable a stronger Hulk in seperated Hulk who was amped with nexus energy who was then further amped by Apocalypse to become War Hulk. Juggernaut still pushed him around for several hundred yards before Hulk finally stopped him. Also, there was obviously not enough traction that if Juggernaut were using his enchantment, the Hulk would've been pushed back evern more because of the ground giving way.

Juggernaut was using strength plain and simple. There's no evidence in that fight to suggest otherwise and Chris Gages comments confirm this. I've provided the proof for my argument. It's now up to you to prove the Juggernaut was using his enchantment.




Tell you what. Give me some feats of Kurse's that lead you to believe he's WAY stronger than the Juggernaut. Pure strength feats, not just owning Thor or anything. His bio simply stating his 2 or 4 times stronger than Thor isn't proof enough. I want so hardcore evidence that proves this.

I'll wait.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
None of this makes any sense.

You believe that Juggernauts unstoppability enchantment is on all the time? The moment he moves he's automatically unstoppable? Are you retarded? How the hell does he ever sit down then or lean up against something? How does he ever walk up a flight of stairs? His unstoppability enchantment is something he wills on and off like his armor and helmet or like how he can amp his strength.

Also, the War Hulk thing is very relevant. You have what is already arguable a stronger Hulk in seperated Hulk who was amped with nexus energy who was then further amped by Apocalypse to become War Hulk. Juggernaut still pushed him around for several hundred yards before Hulk finally stopped him. Also, there was obviously not enough traction that if Juggernaut were using his enchantment, the Hulk would've been pushed back evern more because of the ground giving way.

Juggernaut was using strength plain and simple. There's no evidence in that fight to suggest otherwise and Chris Gages comments confirm this. I've provided the proof for my argument. It's now up to you to prove the Juggernaut was using his enchantment.


Pure Gibberish. The questions u are asking are inane. How does he ever walk up a flight of stairs? How does he ever lean against a wall or sit down? Are u freaking kidding me? Those questions dont relate to the nature of his enchantment in the slightest.lol, Firstly i would think that u would realize that when we talk about the juggernaut being unstoppable when he starts moving we are talking about him being stopped by external forces. Therefore he CAN stop himself when he wants to. Its not that when he starts moving he cant stop himself but that when he starts moving nothing else can stop him. Further i dare u to provide me with instances in which he clearly indicates turning off his unstoppability enchantment while moving forward. I bet u cant and wont and so it remains unsupported gibberish.

And NO the War hulk thing is not relevant even in the slightest. In my previous post i challenged u to prove that War hulk was stronger than WWH prior to the enchancements kicking in. U simply ignored that and made ANOTHER blanket claim that he was "arguably stronger". Trying to base ur argument of juggernauts previous performance in the War hulk fight is ridiculous.

Juggernaut was not using strength at all. He was using his unstoppability enchantment that comes into play when he moves forward. U havent provided any form of proof whatsoever except a forum discussion with a writer which contradicts whats on panel. I have challenged u to show me instances where juggernaut is shown to turn on and off his unstoppability enchantment and you have yet to show anything but instead have provided laughably idiotic questions/analogies which have no relationship at all with whats being discussed. Ur argument is still entirely baseless.



Now ur moving the goalpost and trying to dismiss other forms of evidence post which is logical fallacy. Kurse doesnt have pure strength lifting feats etc and the reason for such is extremely obvious. Other villains like Thanos,Mangog and Durok who are clearly stronger than thor dont have these lifting feats either because frankly there is no reason plotwise for them to go around performing such feats. U cannot simply dismiss the forms of evidence that DO prove he is far stronger than juggernaut because u dont like them. Thats utter nonsense. Kurse has continuously demolished and overpowerd thor in their fights and his amps have been clearly depicted ON panel so there is no disputing them. There is also thors own admission of the fact that Kurse is considerably stronger than him. Thor himself is featwise even superior to juggernaut but in general they are within the same range of strength. Kurse therefore being far stronger than Thor automatically means the same for juggernaut. UR attempt to simply dismiss entirely valid forms of evidence in place of what u inanely describe as "hardcore evidence" (lmao) is completely fallacious and also shows desperation. To completely seal this discussion, even if we take the feat that u r trying to falsely pass of as a strength feat Juggernaut would still be nowhere near Kurses strength level. and so ur argument is stil invalid.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Kurse doesnt have pure strength lifting feats etc and the reason for such is extremely obvious. Other villains like Thanos,Mangog and Durok who are clearly stronger than thor dont have these lifting feats either because frankly there is no reason plotwise for them to go around performing such feats.


so because they dont have pure lifting feats cause they dont need them, juggernaut does??? hmm... despite thor stating that juggernaut was stronger than him also... sounds like you are splitting hairs to me.

Originally posted by Naija boy
U cannot simply dismiss the forms of evidence that DO prove he is far stronger than juggernaut because u dont like them. Thats utter nonsense. Kurse has continuously demolished and overpowerd thor in their fights and his amps have been clearly depicted ON panel so there is no disputing them.


the only way to PROVE who would be stronger would be have them fight each other. not because they both trash thor handily.


Originally posted by Naija boy
There is also thors own admission of the fact that Kurse is considerably stronger than him.

the same with juggernaut.


Originally posted by Naija boy
Thor himself is featwise even superior to juggernaut but in general they are within the same range of strength.


you said it yourself. even kurse doesnt have to prove feats. but juggernaut does??? on panel thor has proven stronger than all of them because of their lack of feats (kurse juggernaut mangog etc.). this doesnt even make sense.



Originally posted by Naija boy
Kurse therefore being far stronger than Thor automatically means the same for juggernaut.


not when i'm seeing juggernaut far stronger than thor also. able to go toe to toe with hulk or kurse or mangog or even the destroyer... you cant say because kurse is stronger than thor, he's stronger than juggernaut. thor has never proven stronger than juggernaut. all we know is that kurse is above thor and juggernaut also. hulk too. by admission.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Crimson Bands of Cytorrak? That shit's been broken by Namor. The forces that hold the Universes together are really weak.

it was because of stranges lack to keep them in place. not because of the bands themselves...

they were enough to restrain GALACTUS.

Originally posted by KillAll
the only way to PROVE who would be stronger would be have them fight each other. not because they both trash thor handily.


The score is 2-1 to Thor

And giving Juggernaut a win is being pretty generous.

Originally posted by KillAll
so because they dont have pure lifting feats cause they dont need them, juggernaut does??? hmm... despite thor stating that juggernaut was stronger than him also... sounds like you are splitting hairs to me.


Oh brother, Strawman argumentation right off the bat. I never claimed that juggernaut needed pure lifting feats to show his strength. Also please show me the scan where thor states that regular juggernaut is stronger than him or that is simply a false claim.



No. Juggernaut "victories" over thor have come not because of his strength but because of his durability and the fact that thor is unable to hurt him. To be frank the only time where he actually beat thor strengthwise was in the 8th day saga were he was much stronger than he normally is and so thats totally invalid.



Please show me where such a thing was stated about regular jugs



What? Please stop misrepresenting my arguments and the constant strawmanning. I didnt say Kurse doesnt have to prove feats. Jeez. I said that Kurse doesnt need to use pure lifting feats. Further I never asked for lifting feats for juggernaut only God knows what ur even reading. I asked for feats (any kind of strength feats) from juggernaut showing that he is stronger than Kurse. Moreover on panel thor hasnt proven to be stronger than Kurse or Mangog as theyve both easily overpowered him physically. Juggernaut on the other hand hasnt had such success but instead relies on his durability and mentions his reliance on his forcefield in almost evry fight he has had with thor.
....your right about one thing though, ur post doesnt make sense......at all.



Juggernaut far stronger than thor? based on what? Also when did he go toe to toe toe with Kurse,mangog or the destroyer? Or if u r simply making the claim that he can, what proof of this is there?. Heck there isnt even any proof that juggernaut is stronger than thor at all. As we saw in his fight with thor when he had his forcefield removed he got thrashed. Once again i ask u to show me where thor admitted to being weaker than regular jugs.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Oh brother, Strawman argumentation right off the bat. I never claimed that juggernaut needed pure lifting feats to show his strength. Also please show me the scan where thor states that regular juggernaut is stronger than him or that is simply a false claim.


by writer admission, and by my own followings, that WAS regular juggernaut. 8th day appeared to be normal and the writer stated that he didnt recieve a power up. the only difference between 8th day was juggernauts will to be somewhere.


Originally posted by Naija boy
No. Juggernaut "victories" over thor have come not because of his strength but because of his durability and the fact that thor is unable to hurt him. To be frank the only time where he actually beat thor strengthwise was in the 8th day saga were he was much stronger than he normally is and so thats totally invalid.


like you said, even though they are "durability" related, juggernaut was still making thor fly all over the place when he was making connections. just because he doesnt have the feats doesnt mean they arent there... even when comparing captain britains statements of being hit by both he says juggernaut hits harder.


Originally posted by Naija boy
Please show me where such a thing was stated about regular jugs

again, writer admission, 8th day was regular juggernaut. its not like juggernaut doesnt have MORE power than 8th day (trion was his own power) to whip thor or kurse with.


Originally posted by Naija boy
What? Please stop misrepresenting my arguments and the constant strawmanning. I didnt say Kurse doesnt have to prove feats. Jeez. I said that Kurse doesnt need to use pure lifting feats. Further I never asked for lifting feats for juggernaut only God knows what ur even reading. I asked for feats (any kind of strength feats) from juggernaut showing that he is stronger than Kurse. Moreover on panel thor hasnt proven to be stronger than Kurse or Mangog as theyve both easily overpowered him physically. Juggernaut on the other hand hasnt had such success but instead relies on his durability and mentions his reliance on his forcefield in almost evry fight he has had with thor.
....your right about one thing though, ur post doesnt make sense......at all.


all i was saying is that ON PANEL, PURE LIFTING FEATS, thor actually has lifting feats. he beats them all according to that. which is what you are asking me to do. provide feats to prove juggernaut was stronger than thor. but there are no feats for EITHER of them that prove who is stronger... juggernaut/kurse. its a toss up. you cant tell me to do something but then not do it yourself. you are using abc logic.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Juggernaut far stronger than thor? based on what? Also when did he go toe to toe toe with Kurse,mangog or the destroyer? Or if u r simply making the claim that he can, what proof of this is there?. Heck there isnt even any proof that juggernaut is stronger than thor at all. As we saw in his fight with thor when he had his forcefield removed he got thrashed. Once again i ask u to show me where thor admitted to being weaker than regular jugs.

i THINK juggernaut could do it. thats just my opinion. yours is, he cant. thats it. there also isnt any PROOF of kurse being stronger. which is what you are saying he is. if he is, prove it.


even if kurse was stronger (i personally dont believe he is, you obviously do), it is JUST AS LIKELY for juggernaut to pick him up and throw him into orbit (juggernaut has thrown other things into orbit, why not kurse???). i think what stemmed this argument was bfr no?? thats not going to be the case. this fight wont be one that way. and if it is, its 50/50.

if it is according to durability then juggernaut edges out kurse. same with stamina or "other abilities" that classic juggernaut possesses.

i just dont see how kurse wins.


Originally posted by Kris Blaze
The score is 2-1 to Thor

And giving Juggernaut a win is being pretty generous.


thats not the way i see it. thor negated his power once for 60 seconds. thats the only portion of any fight he was winning. other than that juggernaut took everything and dished out far more without even really having thor in his sights. he was just trashing stuff...
kurse isnt capable of removing juggernauts magics. so he wont pose a problem.

Originally posted by KillAll
thats not the way i see it. thor negated his power once for 60 seconds. thats the only portion of any fight he was winning. other than that juggernaut took everything and dished out far more without even really having thor in his sights. he was just trashing stuff...
kurse isnt capable of removing juggernauts magics. so he wont pose a problem.

Only portion of the fight he was winning, and Juggernaut was a split second away from death. The only reason why Juggernaut lived was because of the 60 second enchantment, which shouldn't have been an issue there. Not that the fight matters much here, because people think that Kurse wins VIA BFR.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Only portion of the fight he was winning, and Juggernaut was a split second away from death. The only reason why Juggernaut lived was because of the 60 second enchantment, which shouldn't have been an issue there. Not that the fight matters much here, because people think that Kurse wins VIA BFR.


wow... lol, exaggerate much?? seconds away from death?? he couldnt even KO a severely depowered juggernaut let alone kill him in the 60 seconds. ur rediculous.


even if that were the case (which its not), kurse has no way of duplicating thors abilities to negate juggernauts magic.


juggernaut wins via battlefeild removal. he throws kurse into orbit. literally.

Originally posted by KillAll
by writer admission, and by my own followings, that WAS regular juggernaut. 8th day appeared to be normal and the writer stated that he didnt recieve a power up. the only difference between 8th day was juggernauts will to be somewhere.


Writer admission? Where was this? Further ON panel evidence is supreme. Thor refers to juggernaut as being a 100 times more powerful than usual. Juggernaut even admits to something making him more powerful than ever before. To say that there was no difference between 8th day jugs and regular classic juggs is therefore unbelievably FALSE.



Actually the only time jugs made thor fly with his blows was when Thor was trying NOT to fight and was simply talking to juggernaut. Hence thor wasnt braced for the attack. Not that that matters anyway. Further i really am dumbfounded by ur statement "just because he doesnt have the feats doesnt mean they arent there"..........Er if he doesnt have the feats it sort of means they arent there. Also using captain britains statements is highly faulty (though id like to actually see these statements). Thor would obviously NOT hit captain britain with his full force and would hold back immensely. The same CANNOT be said of juggernaut.



Id like to see this writer admission and further by Juggernauts own admission as well as external observation by thor something was making him more powerful than ever before. Without outside circumstances Juggernaut has NEVER shown to operate at 8th day levels or een close. Trion was also due to outside circumstances and while it may be juggernauts own power that he got from cyttorak which was in use in these instances, without the aid of these other circumstances Juggernaut has NEVER shown to acces these levels of power. To assume he would suddenly do so in this match or in any other forum match is massive reaching and a pretty weak argument



Ayaaaa. What? More misrepresentation and strawmanning. Please try reading what i actually wrote. I know that in terms of ON PANEL lifitng feats thor has guys like Mangog and Kurse and Juggernaut beat. I DIDNT ASK YOU TO PROVIDE PURE LIFTING FEATS because i know those ARENT the only feats that determine strength. I asked u to provide any type of strength feat that shows that Juggernaut is stronger than thor let alone Kurse. I have provided reasons and feats for why Kurse is stronger than thor from the numerous times he has trounced thor physically to, thors (and others as well) own admission of how much stronger Kurse is than him. You CANT even prove that juggernaut is stronger than thor since overall strength featwise (not just lifting feat wise ) thor is superior as well as the very crucial fact that in their direct confrontations, regular Juggernaut has not shown to be superior strengthwise. This is not at all the case with Kurse who has been indsiputably confirmed as being multiple times thors strength. I am not asking u to do anything im not doing myself and am NOT using ABC logic. ABC logic refers to trying to use a characters match with another character to judge the result of an entirely different match without considering the numerous variables and context that might have surrounded the initial matchup. i.e Superman beat green lantern, green lantern beat flash and therefore Superman beats flash. This fails because u did not consider how each of the characters unique powersets matchup against one another as well as the battle tactics used in each fight. However what im doing is comparing a characters specific trait (strength). If thor and juggernaut are roughly the same strength (which they are), and Kurse is FAR stronger than thor, then automatically Kurse is far stronger than juggernaut who as stated before is around the same strength as thor.



This has less to do with "opinions" than on panel fact. There is extremely definitive proof that Kurse is stronger than juggernaut by far. He is multiple times stronger than thor a being who is juggernauts peer strengthwise. Heck, juggernaut actually talked about being "thors equal in strength in Thor 429. Kurse is indisputably far above that strength level. So yes i have proven that Kurse is stronger than juggernaut uve just decided to ignore clear on panel evidence.

Nextly, for juggernaut to pick up Kurse and throw him into orbit hed have to overpower Kurse which WONT be happening because Kurse is far stronger than him. So its not 50/50 at all

Finally its true that the advantage that juggernaut holds over Kurse is durability, but the fact that Kurse is so much stronger than he is(which will enable the BFR) as well as the fact that Kurse's durability is off the scales as well will make that advantage null and void. (it took all the magic within both BRB and thors hammer to KO kurse, juggernaut doesnt have such damage output).

can Kurse even be damage without iron? iirc irons his only weakness

the only thing i see between me and you is interpretation. i see juggernaut readily handing thor his ass in all confontations except for 60 seconds of fighting when juggernaut was depowered. kurse doesnt have that.


you keep saying because kurse beats up thor (like juggernaut does also unless he's depowered) then he's stronger than thor. this is not difinitive proof. you cant use the abc logic to decide who's stronger.


you dont have to over power somebody to throw them. what is to stop juggernaut from picking kurse up (alleviating leverage) and throwing him into space??? bfr is just as likely for juggernaut as kurse. its just a matter of grabing the other, and throwing. you make it sound like its some big tactical puzzle that one has to figure out in order to do its just not that complicated.

Juggernaut also has a personal force field. in order for kurse to even grab him he would have to turn it off. which would also in turn alleviate kurses ability to BFR him.


even if juggernaut is moving forward kurse would have to overcome his enchantment of unstoppability in order to throw him in a direction he's not going.

juggernauts abilities stack up if he were not as strong (you havent proven he's not) that give him some sort of advantage in this fight.

Originally posted by KillAll
wow... lol, exaggerate much?? seconds away from death?? he couldnt even KO a severely depowered juggernaut let alone kill him in the 60 seconds. ur rediculous.


even if that were the case (which its not), kurse has no way of duplicating thors abilities to negate juggernauts magic.


juggernaut wins via battlefeild removal. he throws kurse into orbit. literally.

If you read the text in their fight, you'll see that Juggernaut was moments away from being finished. So, you are the ridiculous one, to no one's great surprise.

Juggernaut can't throw Kurse into orbit, Kurse is so much stronger it's not even funny. The only thing Juggernaut has is durability, but even that's up for debate, considering that Thor had to ruin both Mjolnir and Stormbreaker to knock him unconscious.

Originally posted by KillAll
the only thing i see between me and you is interpretation. i see juggernaut readily handing thor his ass in all confontations except for 60 seconds of fighting when juggernaut was depowered. kurse doesnt have that.


*Sigh* Nice job dodging the post were i comprehensively addressed most of the things uve argued. In my kindness ill go over it again.

First of all, the ONLY time that regular juggernaut has actually physically done well against thor was in their first fight and even then he didnt dominate him in the way u r imagining. NOT ONLY that but thor was actually heavily weakened in that fight and he was still able to hold his own relatively well. In the fight were juggernaut fought thor with his full strength but without his absolute invulnerability he got demolished. The only time he has physically overpowered thor legitimately was during the 8th day saga where he was heavily amped.



This is yet another poor interpretation of my argument and im getting pretty tired of them. To equate Juggernauts fights with thor to Kurses fights with thor is retarded. Regular Juggernaut has never legitimately overpowered a full powered thor. Not only that, but he has actually mentioned how he is thors equal in strength in one of their encounters. On the other hand, thor had to double his strength with his belt of strength to match Kurse and then he STILL couldnt match Kurses strength after beyonder had amped him the second time. So what do we have? We have juggernaut who has never physically overwhelmed a full powered thor and who at best and by his own admission is thors equal in strength and then we have Kurse who completely demolishes thor physically and is confirmed on panel as being FAR FAR stronger than thor.

Its therefore clear that Kurse who is far stronger than thor, juggernauts equal in strength by his own admission, is also far stronger than juggernaut. Ive already explained why this logic is valid and isnt ABC logic though for some reason u chose to ignore it.



False. In order for juggernaut to pick up Kurse, he would have to overcome the resistance which Kurse would put up. Juggernaut is not fast enough to pick up and thor Kurse before kurse puts up physical resistance and so this ur idea of him simply picking up and tossing Kurse as if he were some inanimate object is nonsensical. Since Kurse is far stronger than juggernaut, he would easily be able to put up enough resistance to stop juggernaut from lifting and throwing him. When Kurse attempts to do the same thing to juggs, he will easily overcome any resistance that juggernaut can put up thanks to his huge strength advantage and then its bye bye juggs.



I have already proven in this thread why the belief that juggernaut cant be touched through his personal FF is entirely false. His forcefield was on throughout his fight with thor in Thor 411-412 and thor was still able to send him flying with a punch as well as push him back with the Godblast. This is not to mention the countless other times that he has been punched/grabbed in his history.



If juggs just keeps moving forward throughout the fight then he will eventually BFR himself which is better for Kurse.lol However when he begins engaging in h2h combat with Kurse is when Kurse will BFR him.



I have already proven that juggs is nowhere near as strong as Kurse and further almost all juggs abilities will be ineffective against Kurse who is probably to durable for him to actually hurt.

Originally posted by Naija boy
First of all, the ONLY time that regular juggernaut has actually physically done well against thor was in their first fight and even then he didnt dominate him in the way u r imagining. NOT ONLY that but thor was actually heavily weakened in that fight and he was still able to hold his own relatively well.

ok??? thor 1) had help from a bunch of nobodies 2)juggernaut wasnt even intent on fighting thor he just did it cause thor kept getting in his way. hold his own? he got knocked out and juggernaut took everything he had without even slowing down.


Originally posted by Naija boy

In the fight were juggernaut fought thor with his full strength but without his absolute invulnerability he got demolished. The only time he has physically overpowered thor legitimately was during the 8th day saga where he was heavily amped.


Juggernaut was not amped. he was stating that he needed to be somewhere. he was going to get there. refer to juggernaut trion for an amped juggs. refer to the countless times he has had his power drained and shrank. literally. his size usually changes when he gets powerd up or depowered.


Originally posted by Naija boy

This is yet another poor interpretation of my argument and im getting pretty tired of them.


as am i. but your arguements are simply your opinion.


Originally posted by Naija boy

to equate Juggernauts fights with thor to Kurses fights with thor is retarded. Regular Juggernaut has never legitimately overpowered a full powered thor.

except in every encounter except for the 60 seconds JUGGERNAUT was depowered???


Originally posted by Naija boy

Not only that, but he has actually mentioned how he is thors equal in strength in one of their encounters.

well, he said ATLEAST thors equal. meaning that he was thors equal or (pay close attention) at a higher level.


Originally posted by Naija boy

On the other hand, thor had to double his strength with his belt of strength to match Kurse and then he STILL couldnt match Kurses strength after beyonder had amped him the second time.


what does this have to do with juggernaut?? none of that mumbo jumbo would help thor anymore against juggernaut than it did against kurse. if juggernaut were at full power.

Originally posted by Naija boy

So what do we have?

your opinion. and mine.

Originally posted by Naija boy
We have juggernaut who has never physically overwhelmed a full powered thor


except in every encounter except when JUGGERNAUT was depowered. sure i agree in that case.


Originally posted by Naija boy

and who at best and by his own admission is thors equal in strength

if you ask me, it means juggernaut was saying at his BARE MINIMUM was thors equal. if you ask me, that means a v8 with no gas is as powerful as a honda lmao.


Originally posted by Naija boy
and then we have Kurse who completely demolishes thor physically and is confirmed on panel as being FAR FAR stronger than thor.


thor and kurses battles prove nothing.


Originally posted by Naija boy

Its therefore clear that Kurse who is far stronger than thor, juggernauts equal in strength by his own admission, is also far stronger than juggernaut. Ive already explained why this logic is valid and isnt ABC logic though for some reason u chose to ignore it.


you havent explained it, and its still invalid. thor can negate juggernauts magics and present a problem to him. kurse cannot.


Originally posted by Naija boy
False. In order for juggernaut to pick up Kurse, he would have to overcome the resistance which Kurse would put up.

kurse in no circumstances could stop the juggernauts forward momentum. at all. he can put up a fight but he cant slow him down.


Originally posted by Naija boy

Juggernaut is not fast enough to pick up and thor Kurse before kurse puts up physical resistance and so this ur idea of him simply picking up and tossing Kurse as if he were some inanimate object is nonsensical.


so to assume that juggernaut is just gonna stand there (not use his strength, or fighting abilities or magics) and let kurse just pick him up is sensical?? no, its "nonsensical" also.

Originally posted by Naija boy

Since Kurse is far stronger than juggernaut,

no, false


Originally posted by Naija boy

he would easily be able to put up enough resistance to stop juggernaut from lifting and throwing him. When Kurse attempts to do the same thing to juggs, he will easily overcome any resistance that juggernaut can put up thanks to his huge strength advantage and then its bye bye juggs.


nah, juggernaut just marchs forward and hits him, kurse cant slow him down and will just have to take the punishment.


Originally posted by Naija boy

I have already proven in this thread why the belief that juggernaut cant be touched through his personal FF is entirely false.

he has used it and its an option, you cant just invalidate it and say it wont be used, cause it IS an option.


Originally posted by Naija boy

His forcefield was on throughout his fight with thor in Thor 411-412 and thor was still able to send him flying with a punch as well as push him back with the Godblast.

he turns it on and off. it was on when he wanted to prove he could not be touched by thors hammer. i personally believe it was not on when the godblast hit him. none of these things kurse can do.

Originally posted by Naija boy

This is not to mention the countless other times that he has been punched/grabbed in his history.


but not when he doesnt want to be.

Originally posted by Naija boy

If juggs just keeps moving forward throughout the fight then he will eventually BFR himself which is better for Kurse.lol However when he begins engaging in h2h combat with Kurse is when Kurse will BFR him.


show me where kurse has battlefeild removed somebody in hand to hand combat. or where juggernaut was battlefeild removed because of his unstoppability. it has always helped him except for WWH. in which case he was almost immediately back. and if you ask me again, juggernaut only got MOMENTARILY BFR because he was distracted and not even paying attention to wwh, and all the while holding him at bay.


Originally posted by Naija boy

I have already proven that juggs is nowhere near as strong as Kurse and further almost all juggs abilities will be ineffective against Kurse who is probably to durable for him to actually hurt.

your proof in actuality is your OPINION. and see, you did it to... "probably". you arent even sure. personally i believe juggernaut capable of damaging kurse.

Here we go again.

Originally posted by KillAll
ok??? thor 1) had help from a bunch of nobodies 2)juggernaut wasnt even intent on fighting thor he just did it cause thor kept getting in his way. hold his own? he got knocked out and juggernaut took everything he had without even slowing down.


The part of the fight in which thor engaged juggernaut physically happened before the new warriors were even present on the scene. So no thor did NOT have help from them. When he fought jugs physically (which is what is relevant here) they werent even around. Also Juggernaut didnt want to figh thor intially BUT after he had engaged in fighting thor, he was not holding back anything. Further thor was so weak in that fight that he found it difficult to temporarily hold up a single train car. Therefore when u consider that even as thor was that weak as thor was juggernuat didnt oneshot him and he still made a match of the encounter for a while, then yes he did do relatively well given the circumstances.



This is just simply denying what was on panel. Juggernaut himself admitted to being amped.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Jugggernautamped.jpg

Thors talks about juggernaut being more powerful than ever before and what does juggernaut say?" you got that right goldilocks, something is making me that way" .Oh but u want us to disregard what the character himself says as well as other characters observations and instead accept nonsensical unsupported rationalizations.heh.




learn to actually read the post before responding. I said that regular juggernaut, has never overpowered a full powered thor. So lets see theyve fought 3 times. The first encounter thor was weakenedi.e not full powered) so that doesnt count. The other encounter u r referring to we have jugs admitting to being amped so that is also out the window.....so yes if uve been following ur above post is blatantly false.



Actually he said he is easily thors equal. Point is that at best we have juggernaut stating that he is definitely on thors level of strength while we know that Kurse is 4 times that.



If thors strength was doubled hed be way stronger than juggernaut who hasnt shown to be stronger than even a regular thor.



See above for the disproof of this gibberish. One encounter he was amped another encounterthor wasnt at fullpower.


Nothing except how far above thor and juggernaut Kurse is strengthwise.




I explained it a few posts ago. U foolishly ignored it and didnt even attempt to disporve it. Further the ability to negate jugs enchantment is irrelvant here. Jugs strength wasnt negated anyways



Kurse wouldnt need to stop juggernauts forward momentum, this isnt a pushing contest. At some point in the fight juggernaut will stop and begin to exchange blows with Kurse, at this point in time he is done for and willbe BFRed by a far stronger opponent. End of story



Who said juggernaut is going to just stand there? I explicitly mentioned that juggernaut would put up resistance but because of Kurses vastly superior strength he would easily overcome said resistance. Further what magics are u even talking about? Juggernaut admitted to having lost any magical powers he had in Dr strange Sorcerer supreme issue 44. Sheesh, now ur trying to give him new abilities.



And when Kurse moves out of the way what happens? or goes behind juggernaut?. The fact of the matter is that juggernaut is going to have to stop and engage in h2h combat in this fight at one point or the other. He cant just keep marching forward aimlessly as u are suggesting. Its at tha point that he gets Bfred.



Im not saying his forcefield doesnt exist. However the belief that he cant be touched through it is just false. In his first fight against thor, it was on throughout without any sign or mention of him turning it off (pls show an example of him doing such a thing willingly) and thor was still able to punch him and send him flying. Infact here is a challenge which will show the ridiculousness of this forcefield idea, If he can supposedly turn off and on his forcefield, and we assume that everytime he is hit his forcefield is off even without any proof that he turned it off, then i challenge u to show me an instance where juggernauts forcefield was clearly illustrated as being on and yet Juggernaut was able to make contact with others in the way of punches and such. IF u cant do this and still persist in this "he cant be touched thru his forcefield" argument then i have every right to assert that he cant touch others thru his forcefield either.



Please show me proof that he turned it off at ANY point during the first fight with thor despite clearly indicating that it was on previously.


If so then prove that he turned it off in the first fight with thor. and see my challenge above.



Kurse has had like 20 appearances tops. Anyhow if even savage hulk could realize that BFR was the best option against juggernaut then im sure Kurse can as well. It doesnt take any kind of genius to realize that if after a prolonged period of fighting u have been unable to damage ur opponent then its best to get him the hell away from you. Further i was being sarcastic when i suggested juggernaut simply Bfring himself . This scenario will be more like his fight with savage hulk in which Savage hulk would have thrown him back to the army base if not for some mountains that got in the way.




Rubbish. Ive provided on panel evidence to back up my arguments unlike you who have resorted to false claims and denial. lol and I only said "probably" because i wanted to be generous. Juggernaut CANT hurt kurse period. As seen ON PANEL Both thor and Beta ray bill had to use up ALL the magic in their hammers to KO him. Juggernaut doesnt even have close to that type of damage output.

Naija

How can people actually debate, Juggernaut not being?

Dude, even agreed. And he never showed he turned off his Force Field after he turned it on.

Anyways, I'd address a great deal of KillAll posts but Naija, got it more or less.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Pure Gibberish. The questions u are asking are inane. How does he ever walk up a flight of stairs? How does he ever lean against a wall or sit down? Are u freaking kidding me? Those questions dont relate to the nature of his enchantment in the slightest.lol, Firstly i would think that u would realize that when we talk about the juggernaut being unstoppable when he starts moving we are talking about him being stopped by external forces. Therefore he CAN stop himself when he wants to. Its not that when he starts moving he cant stop himself but that when he starts moving nothing else can stop him. Further i dare u to provide me with instances in which he clearly indicates turning off his unstoppability enchantment while moving forward. I bet u cant and wont and so it remains unsupported gibberish.

And NO the War hulk thing is not relevant even in the slightest. In my previous post i challenged u to prove that War hulk was stronger than WWH prior to the enchancements kicking in. U simply ignored that and made ANOTHER blanket claim that he was "arguably stronger". Trying to base ur argument of juggernauts previous performance in the War hulk fight is ridiculous.

Juggernaut was not using strength at all. He was using his unstoppability enchantment that comes into play when he moves forward. U havent provided any form of proof whatsoever except a forum discussion with a writer which contradicts whats on panel. I have challenged u to show me instances where juggernaut is shown to turn on and off his unstoppability enchantment and you have yet to show anything but instead have provided laughably idiotic questions/analogies which have no relationship at all with whats being discussed. Ur argument is still entirely baseless.



Now ur moving the goalpost and trying to dismiss other forms of evidence post which is logical fallacy. Kurse doesnt have pure strength lifting feats etc and the reason for such is extremely obvious. Other villains like Thanos,Mangog and Durok who are clearly stronger than thor dont have these lifting feats either because frankly there is no reason plotwise for them to go around performing such feats. U cannot simply dismiss the forms of evidence that DO prove he is far stronger than juggernaut because u dont like them. Thats utter nonsense. Kurse has continuously demolished and overpowerd thor in their fights and his amps have been clearly depicted ON panel so there is no disputing them. There is also thors own admission of the fact that Kurse is considerably stronger than him. Thor himself is featwise even superior to juggernaut but in general they are within the same range of strength. Kurse therefore being far stronger than Thor automatically means the same for juggernaut. UR attempt to simply dismiss entirely valid forms of evidence in place of what u inanely describe as "hardcore evidence" (lmao) is completely fallacious and also shows desperation. To completely seal this discussion, even if we take the feat that u r trying to falsely pass of as a strength feat Juggernaut would still be nowhere near Kurses strength level. and so ur argument is stil invalid.

Jeebus, you don't know anything do you? I haven't seen stupidity like this since Quanchi's time here. I'll try to slow it down and make it as simple as possibly can for you ok?

So, you believe that his enchantment is on the instant he moves and it's on all the time?

Here, the writer of that very story says the Juggernaut was using strength against Hulk, not his enchantment:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=5411579&postcount=36

Here is the entire fight between Juggernaut and WWH. Please show me where it's painfully obvious his enchantment is in effect.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/th_WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0023-24.jpghttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/th_WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0025.jpghttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/th_WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0027.jpg

Juggernaut isn't holding onto Hulk in a way you would push someone. They're locked in a game of mercy, that takes strenght. Use your god given gift a reason, son.

I suggest you go back to figuring out how you're going to feed your family for the week and stop getting into debates you're not qualified to get into.

As for Kurse being WAY stronger. Please provide proof.

Originally posted by Naija boy
This is just simply denying what was on panel. Juggernaut himself admitted to being amped.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Jugggernautamped.jpg

Why are you Thorbags fixated on that one panel? Why don't you actually read the entire book? You might finally understand something.

Juggernaut was simply more focused in that story. He never did anything that classic Juggernaut didn't do, he's physically man-handled Thor on more than one occasion.

"BAH! Like I care! Can't let you...Anyone stop me!"

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/8th%20Day/th_Thor_vol2-519-017-12.jpg

The dreaded scan in question. Thor fans focus on the words of their beloved and completely ignore everything Juggernaut says. In response to what Thor says, Juggernaut replies:

"You got that right, goldilocks. Sumthin's makin' me that way...Sumthin's drawin' me somewhere and i'll march through anything or any man ta get there!"

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/8th%20Day/th_Thor_vol2-519-017-13.jpg

"Fer the first time ever--I really feel like I can cut loose and crush even the likes O' you"

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/8th%20Day/th_Thor_vol2-519-017-14.jpg

"Gotta...Keep MOVIN'! Gotta follow the call...An' nuthin's gonna stop me!"

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/8th%20Day/th_Thor_vol2-519-017-21.jpg

I won't even get into him defeating Cyttorak in that story. Why Cyttorak would amp Juggernaut only to have his own avatar defeat him is ridiculous. The point of 8th day was so that the Octessence could determine who was greater by having their exemplars build armies and battle it out. Whoever was the last one standing wins. Amping Juggernaut so he could get some where had nothing to do with it.

Juggernaut was simply more focused, obsessed with getting some where. He has an amazing willpower. His power wasn't amped

If you still want to play this game I'll dig up an email from Kurt Busiek, the guy who write the 2 Eight Day Iron Man tie-ins and the 2 Avenger 9th Day books, where he says Juggernaut was not amped in any way during that story.

juggs may or may not have been amped but he was clearly stronger in 8th day than ever before or since and isnt an indication of his regular power. kind of like b&t or wm thor. hes not amped just cutting loose, but his feats in those scenarios arent relevent to this discussion and neither are 8th day juggs. regular thor and juggs are pretty even strength wise kurse is far superior to thor and therefor stronger than juggs its not abc logic just common sense. regular juggs has never overpowered thor he doesnt get hurt because hes more durable not because thor isnt hitting him as hard.

He's overpowered Thor on more than 1 occasion. I make the same suggestion to you not to get involved in topics you're not qualified to debate.

and what exactly are these multiple occasions that regular juggs has overpowered thor. also id have a few suggestions for u but they would probably mean as little to u as your suggestions mean to me.

By all means, suggest them.

Thor #411, Juggernaut was pimp slapping Thor all over town, Thor was ill at the time so it's not really a great feat. Thor #429, before the 60 second PIS, Juggernaut was handing Thor his head. Thor #17, Thor was absolutely no match for the Juggernaut physically. He never has been without some contrived plot device written in for Thor specifically to make him more or less equal to the Juggernaut.

Thor's only advantage over Juggernaut is mjolnir.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Jeebus, you don't know anything do you? I haven't seen stupidity like this since Quanchi's time here. I'll try to slow it down and make it as simple as possibly can for you ok?

So, you believe that his enchantment is on the instant he moves and it's on all the time?

Here, the writer of that very story says the Juggernaut was using strength against Hulk, not his enchantment:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=5411579&postcount=36

Here is the entire fight between Juggernaut and WWH. Please show me where it's painfully obvious his enchantment is in effect.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/th_WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0023-24.jpghttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/th_WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0025.jpghttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/th_WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0027.jpg

Juggernaut isn't holding onto Hulk in a way you would push someone. They're locked in a game of mercy, that takes strenght. Use your god given gift a reason, son.

I suggest you go back to figuring out how you're going to feed your family for the week and stop getting into debates you're not qualified to get into.

As for Kurse being WAY stronger. Please provide proof.

Lol so instead of attempting prove anything or disprove anything mentioned in my post, u decided to dodge it and try cover up ur inability to counter it with unbelievably laughable personal attacks. . Wow..... "i havent seen suchs tupidity since quanchi was here"......Gimme a freaking break. How obvious can u get? This is so pathetic its not even funny anymore.

I challenged you to show me clear on panel instances where it was indicated that juggernaut turned off his unstoppability enchantment. You have failed to do so entirely. Instead u want to rely on what was said by the writer in a casual discussion with the fans and totally ignore whats on panel.lmao. GTFO with such bullshit.


And the last part of ur post is the most idiotic. Do u think that by posting the fight uve somehow done ANYTHING to prove ur case? Juggernaut isnt holding on to the Hulk in a way that you push someone? lolwut?. You must be blind. We can clearly see hulks feets sliding back as he is being pushed as well juggernauts foot slantedina foward stepping position So ur saying the way that Hulk and juggernaut are holding each other somehow means that juggernaut couldnt have been pushing him even though there is a clear indication that there was? Absolutely inane. Moreover from close observation its clear that they arent actually involved a game of mercy (not that it matters even) as we see juggernaut hlding the hulks wrist and the hulk holding his fist in the last scan u posted. But to completely decimate this ridiculous notion of urs that they werent moving, on the page immediately after which u neglected to post, we see juggernaut lurch forward as soon as WWH moves out of the way which even moredefinitively proves that he was attempting to move forward.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_Juggernautmovingforward.jpg

This is clear to absolutely anyone who bothered to read the damn scans which from ur posts its clear u are not one of.



............right. . I didnt think it possible but this is even more pathetic than the quanchi comment.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Why are you Thorbags fixated on that one panel? Why don't you actually read the entire book? You might finally understand something.

Juggernaut was simply more focused in that story. He never did anything that classic Juggernaut didn't do, he's physically man-handled Thor on more than one occasion.

"BAH! Like I care! Can't let you...Anyone stop me!"

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/8th%20Day/th_Thor_vol2-519-017-12.jpg

The dreaded scan in question. Thor fans focus on the words of their beloved and completely ignore everything Juggernaut says. In response to what Thor says, Juggernaut replies:

"You got that right, goldilocks. Sumthin's makin' me that way...Sumthin's drawin' me somewhere and i'll march through anything or any man ta get there!"

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/8th%20Day/th_Thor_vol2-519-017-13.jpg

"Fer the first time ever--I really feel like I can cut loose and crush even the likes O' you"

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/8th%20Day/th_Thor_vol2-519-017-14.jpg

"Gotta...Keep MOVIN'! Gotta follow the call...An' nuthin's gonna stop me!"

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/8th%20Day/th_Thor_vol2-519-017-21.jpg

I won't even get into him defeating Cyttorak in that story. Why Cyttorak would amp Juggernaut only to have his own avatar defeat him is ridiculous. The point of 8th day was so that the Octessence could determine who was greater by having their exemplars build armies and battle it out. Whoever was the last one standing wins. Amping Juggernaut so he could get some where had nothing to do with it.

Juggernaut was simply more focused, obsessed with getting some where. He has an amazing willpower. His power wasn't amped

If you still want to play this game I'll dig up an email from Kurt Busiek, the guy who write the 2 Eight Day Iron Man tie-ins and the 2 Avenger 9th Day books, where he says Juggernaut was not amped in any way during that story.

So spamming the forum with irrelevant scans that do nothing to help ur case is the new strategy u have adopted? LMAO.

This point isnt even disputable. No one is ignoring anything that juggernaut is saying..........aside you that is. Thor clearly mentions that juggernaut is more powerful than ever before and what juggernaut gives is an entirely unequivocal reply "you got that right goldilocks,something is making me that way, somethings drawing me somewhere". Juggernaut not only flat out admits to thor that he is more powerful than ever before but makes a clear statement claiming that something is making more powerful than ever before. Your own character just admitted to having a powerup. You CAN NEVER get around that regardless of how many irrelevant scans u post. Ur argument arises from a simple dislike of what is clearly portrayed on panel and is entirely baseless.

Infact whats funny is that if we even throw aside all reason and replace it with fanaticism as u are suggesting, and take it that juggernaut was lying to thor when he made that claim, then the showing still wouldnt be valid because juggernaut would NOT and has not been able to produce the same effects without such circumstances present. So regardless the showing is invalid here anyways.

Also as i have shown earlier in this thread, there is no proof that juggernaut is stronger than thor. Kurse as i have also proven is multiple times thors strength and so its obvious to anyone aside a mindless pyschophant like urself that Kurse is way stronger juggernaut. U ask for "proof" that Kurse is stronger and when it is provided (as it has been in this thread) u continuosly ignore and dodge it because u dont like it. Heck u even fallaciously attempted to invalidate the evidence........Hopefully though, u will dodge this post as well and spare us from any more of ur idiocy

thor #411 thor was sick so doesnt count. thor #429 i dont remember juggs overpowering thor at all when they first fought (could u provide scans) then thor removed his shield, stomped him, juggs shield came back and thor sent him into space with moljnir. and thor 17 was 8th day juggs, a stronger version. so when exactly did regular juggs over power regular thor? i suggest u make a credible argument next time u comment on someone elses knowledge.