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well i need to start a new EU book series i've just finished the NJO series and don't know which one i should start.

How can you people actually read the NJO series? NJO is filled with piles of endless shit that has somehow turned Luke into some damn Force God.

I mean Luke used to be cool and perhaps my favorate character, but now I hate him.

We tend to read them all the way through (not me, I could only stand every other one at most) only because we started it, may as well finish it.


And I still say that if any of those Jedi pussies would use Force-Lightning, then they could have defeated the Vong much easier.

Bunch of whinos is all they are.

Originally posted by Tangible God
We tend to read them all the way through (not me, I could only stand every other one at most) only because we started it, may as well finish it.


And I still say that if any of those Jedi pussies would use Force-Lightning, then they could have defeated the Vong much easier.

Bunch of whinos is all they are.

That's what confuses me. Luke suppoedly can do Force Lightning, yet he doesn't teach it to his students. WTF?

And also, the Vong are supposed to be force 'resistant' from a source.(Nai Fohl).

I only finished the NJO series because I had been into it when it first came out. In hindsight the books were only good at killing off a bunch of characters. Other than that it was trash. I skipped the last 3 books just to read the final book and see the outcome.

That's just sad.... NJO is trash

Originally posted by HimoKun
That's what confuses me. Luke suppoedly can do Force Lightning, yet he doesn't teach it to his students. WTF?

And also, the Vong are supposed to be force 'resistant' from a source.(Nai Fohl). Yeah, I know, so true. But don't forget that the lightning isn't made of the Force, it's like some sorts crazy-ass "produce of the Force. It's still in it's own..."freaky" way, matter, which the Yuuzhan aren't immune too. They just repel the Force mentally, in a way... I guess, but not so as physically as lightning is.

ok so you guys dont like NJO woopty do. its just inhaceing starwars knowldge. but can anyone tell me what series i shoudl get into now?

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
ok so you guys dont like NJO woopty do. its just inhaceing starwars knowldge. but can anyone tell me what series i shoudl get into now? Well, which other ones HAVE you read?

the bounty hunter series. andi want to get into more about the ancient sith but i dunno what that series is called. i think golden age of the sith but then that might just be a book. i dunno.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
the bounty hunter series. andi want to get into more about the ancient sith but i dunno what that series is called. i think golden age of the sith but then that might just be a book. i dunno. Try the Thrawn Trilogy, or the trilogy where you meet Kyp Durron, forget what it's called. But most people recommend Thrawn.

Yeah, NJO is trash.

The Vong are "not part of the force", so force powers rarely work on them. However, if you fry them with force lightning, drop a building on their silly head, or throw stuff at them with the force, they will still take damage. How does this work?

There are huge incongruities in force powers, you see individuals that are written inconsistently, and the series is just awkward writing in my opinion. I, personally, don't like it at all.

Most anything in EU that involves far users is trash. Authors want to make their characters ultra powerful, which makes the stories rather pointless. I'm part of the minority, I know, but I much prefer the stories that involve minimal, or ideally, no force invovlement.

I feel the exact same way. Whenever the story turns back to the Force, I tend to skip ahead of it, not giving a flying f*ck about how Luke feels "his lightsaber is an extention of his arm."

I actually liked the NJO series.

You should try the Thrawn trilogy. Then the Jedi Academy books followed by I, Jedi because it's the Jedi Academy books from Corran Horns point of view but then changes in the last two thirds. I haven't read Dark Empire myself, but I here it's good.

For the Ancient hunger, I can't tell you a lot. I have only read one of those and it was a comic. It was called "The Great Sith War" or something like that and was a six comic series about Exar Kun and Ulic I think(I've only read the first one, the comic stores here suck.)

Definatly read the Thrawn trilogy if you haven't.

what all happens in the thrawn trilogy?

i wont spoil it, but Trawn takes a wrecked Empire and makes a serious comeback.

Actually, Corran Horn's one of the few force users that's actually realistc (by realistic I mean, similar to the movies)--I know him from the X-Wing series rather than I, Jedi...so that opinion might change if he's twisted like what happens to most characters.

The Thrawn Trilogy was bogus. I hated it. Lando just HAPPENS to be present when Thrawn attacks with the mole miners, Mara Jade just HAPPENS to be at the palace when the imperials attack so she can ambush them using passages only she knows, C'baoth just HAPPENS to turn on Thrawn during Bilbringi, and Thrawn just HAPPENS to be ignorant enough to not realize the Noghri have turned on him. Honestly. This guy hasn't missed a thing up until now. For those of you who haven't read it, there's just too many "coincidences" to make it believable. I love Thrawn, Pelleaon, and the Interdictor Cruisers...everything else in that series is crap.

Apparently, in all the attempts the Empire made to restore themselves as rulers of the galaxy after ROTJ, Thrawn came the closest, even Reborn Palpatine didn't do as good as job as him, maybe.

But read the series in which Kyp Durron is introduced, the best parts aren't about the Force stuff, but the badass technology in the book.

A lot of trashing of the NJO series I see. I am currently reading it and am now in book 4. When do it become trash? So far it is good.

We believe it's trash because of the way it's written. The Vong are supposedly 'Froce Resistant' which utter shit since it's impossible, and this rule is broken throughout the book, mostly by Luke. It's just stuid how they make this invincible army and the only person who can destroy it is Luke.

And the introduction of the philosphy," There is no Dark Side, there is only the force". Now that's bullshit. That goes against everything in the movies. And everything else in the Star Wars universe.

Hmm, nothing like that has yet appeared in the first 4 books.
Except for the fact that they are "apparently" not connected to the Force.

the episode 3 serie im reading labraenth of evil its pritty good then im gonna read the one about vaders first evil deed

ya i think i'm gonna read dark lord rise of darh vader but i dunno if its just one book or more do any of you guys know?

Originally posted by HimoKun
We believe it's trash because of the way it's written. The Vong are supposedly 'Froce Resistant' which utter shit since it's impossible, and this rule is broken throughout the book, mostly by Luke. It's just stuid how they make this invincible army and the only person who can destroy it is Luke.

And the introduction of the philosphy," There is no Dark Side, there is only the force". Now that's bullshit. That goes against everything in the movies. And everything else in the Star Wars universe.

The Echani Handmaiden's in KOTOR II are force resistent, save for 'The Last of the Handmaidens'. I have not read the books, but it does seem interesting.

As for the 'There is no Dark Side, there is only the force" is true (in EU), and I like this. The KOTOR shows this aspect. The movies are merely a mythological representation of ones self. I wouldn't say it is perfectly presented. In fact by saying there is no light and dark is up closer to 'Jungian' terms. There are negative and positive aspects yes, but neither one is the best. The harmonization between the two is. The SW movies are a conflict with one shadow, and contains other archetypal images that go in hand. In fact with how easily Jedi fall shows that they are not the perfect way, and that they are not in harmony.

Originally posted by Neutrality
The Echani Handmaiden's in KOTOR II are force resistent, save for 'The Last of the Handmaidens'. I have not read the books, but it does seem interesting.

As for the 'There is no Dark Side, there is only the force" is true (in EU), and I like this. The KOTOR shows this aspect. The movies are merely a mythological representation of ones self. I wouldn't say it is perfectly presented. In fact by saying there is no light and dark is up closer to 'Jungian' terms. There are negative and positive aspects yes, but neither one is the best. The harmonization between the two is. The SW movies are a conflict with one shadow, and contains other archetypal images that go in hand. In fact with how easily Jedi fall shows that they are not the perfect way, and that they are not in harmony.

No, it is not represented in KOTOR. It is only brought into play by NJO, and that's bullshit since the whole Idea of the STar Wars universe is that the Dark Side is bad and the center of evil, and The Light Side is Good. That is what Lucas invisioned it, and since he's God of Star Wars, that's the way it is.

And everyone is connected to the force. The force is what makes people live.

Originally posted by Neutrality
The Echani Handmaiden's in KOTOR II are force resistent, save for 'The Last of the Handmaidens'. I have not read the books, but it does seem interesting.

As for the 'There is no Dark Side, there is only the force" is true (in EU), and I like this. The KOTOR shows this aspect. The movies are merely a mythological representation of ones self. I wouldn't say it is perfectly presented. In fact by saying there is no light and dark is up closer to 'Jungian' terms. There are negative and positive aspects yes, but neither one is the best. The harmonization between the two is. The SW movies are a conflict with one shadow, and contains other archetypal images that go in hand. In fact with how easily Jedi fall shows that they are not the perfect way, and that they are not in harmony. Man, we say it's bullsh*t because that's how SW started out--Light Side good, Dark Side bad. Luke was the hero of the movies, and he saved everybody in a relatively reasonable way.

Farm boy sought out by mad hermit, makes pirate friends, learns the Force, saves the princess and destroys the evil gov't and becomes a hero.

A little cliched but feasible.

The NJO turns that "lovable" hero into some sort of demi-god that is the only one that can save the entire galaxy from an even more powerful threat than the Empire...YET AGAIN.

They ruin our cult like view of the Force by getting rid of the Bad versus Good and saying there IS no Bad or Good, no Light or Dark. Hell that throws the perspective of the universe off. (sorry for getting philosophical) Alot of Human history AND SW history is Good vs. Bad.

Now though, in a war against an enemy that is immune to the Force, (which is proven wrong by our Demi-God hero) thousands of years of Good against Bad, Light against Dark is proven useless and futile, in only 5 short years.

5 years! and suddenly all problems facing the Jedi in the past 20 000 years become vain.

Anyways......that's my opinion of NJO.

Oh and to xxxpoppunker182, the books start gettin f*cked around the middle, or so.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Man, we say it's bullsh*t because that's how SW started out--Light Side good, Dark Side bad. Luke was the hero of the movies, and he saved everybody in a relatively reasonable way.

Farm boy sought out by mad hermit, makes pirate friends, learns the Force, saves the princess and destroys the evil gov't and becomes a hero.

A little cliched but feasible.

The NJO turns that "lovable" hero into some sort of demi-god that is the only one that can save the entire galaxy from an even more powerful threat than the Empire...YET AGAIN.

They ruin our cult like view of the Force by getting rid of the Bad versus Good and saying there IS no Bad or Good, no Light or Dark. Hell that throws the perspective of the universe off. (sorry for getting philosophical) Alot of Human history AND SW history is Good vs. Bad.

Now though, in a war against an enemy that is immune to the Force, (which is proven wrong by our Demi-God hero) thousands of years of Good against Bad, Light against Dark is proven useless and futile, in only 5 short years.

5 years! and suddenly all problems facing the Jedi in the past 20 000 years become vain.

Anyways......that's my opinion of NJO.

Oh and to xxxpoppunker182, the books start gettin f*cked around the middle, or so.

Philosophical, I doubt it. Since GL got the mythological archetypes from Jung. Jung stated there is no good or evil when you plainly explain the myth. GL made the myth, he didn't make plain truth. The myth being the truth covered up by fantasy. The light and dark are merely a delictical confrontation, just like thinking/feeling, introversion/extroversion, up/down. This is what history tells, so your veiw on history is flawed, for it is merely a dilectical confrontation. West(capitalism) vs East (communism). Neither is good or evil, but according to one side the other side is evil.
If sith kill for no reason, then they are psychotic and suffer from neurotic dissociation. If we tlak about power, power is not evil, it is merely negative animus or had lost touch with the anima (Jung speak). I already mention this once on this board. Anakin became Vadar because he lost touch of his anima (latin for feminine). This is shown through the loss of his mother and his lover Padme. Leia would be the understanding of the anima with Luke, and why he never got the urge for power.

HimoKun, KOTOR give that POV with Kreia and Revan.

I fail to understand the purpose of you saying this:
And everyone is connected to the force. The force is what makes people live.

Originally posted by Neutrality
Philosophical, I doubt it. Since GL got the mythological archetypes from Jung. Jung stated there is no good or evil when you plainly explain the myth. GL made the myth, he didn't make plain truth. The myth being the truth covered up by fantasy. The light and dark are merely a delictical confrontation, just like thinking/feeling, introversion/extroversion, up/down. This is what history tells, so your veiw on history is flawed, for it is merely a dilectical confrontation. West(capitalism) vs East (communism). Neither is good or evil, but according to one side the other side is evil.
If sith kill for no reason, then they are psychotic and suffer from neurotic dissociation. If we tlak about power, power is not evil, it is merely negative animus or had lost touch with the anima (Jung speak). I already mention this once on this board. Anakin became Vadar because he lost touch of his anima (latin for feminine). This is shown through the loss of his mother and his lover Padme. Leia would be the understanding of the anima with Luke, and why he never got the urge for power.

HimoKun, KOTOR give that POV with Kreia and Revan.

I fail to understand the purpose of you saying this:
And everyone is connected to the force. The force is what makes people live. Yeah, you're human points are true.

But since this is about Star Wars, in which their IS good and evil, it makes sense.

I loved NJO. And it's not even like luke stopped the Vong, so I dunno why everybody says he becomes so overpowered. If you have to pick somebody to be responsible for the end of the Vong, you'd have to pick Zonama Seklot.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Yeah, you're human points are true.

But since this is about Star Wars, in which their IS good and evil, it makes sense.

So then why did you say that human history (along with SW) is a conflict between good and evil?

Secondly SW is about bringing a balance to the force.
Look up the archetypes. GL spend two years before SW researching mythological archetypes (Most likely got it from Jung who said to achieve individuation is the harmonizing of the conscious(Light) and unconscious(Dark)). I suggest you do the same so can you can understand better.
Star Wars is among the easier mythologies to understand, reading the myth of religion is far more complicated, and why there is so much neurotic dissasociation today, especally in Islam. It has been so hard for me to find anything there, except with Mary(anima/earth mother) or Khidr(shadow). To my surprise Christianity is full of it despite the state of Christian majority lands. Buddhism is well straight out in the open, next to no mythology there speaking directly about achieving harmony. Greek myths are good to, a lot that are similar to Anakins fall. Dealing with those wanting to achieve power only to fall or going insane. Since Alexander just came out on DVD, they (through King Philip) explain most of those 'falling from might' myths, that even a real person such as Alexander fell victim to(dependimg if he was poisoned or died of typhoid).

Originally posted by Neutrality
Philosophical, I doubt it. Since GL got the mythological archetypes from Jung. Jung stated there is no good or evil when you plainly explain the myth. GL made the myth, he didn't make plain truth. The myth being the truth covered up by fantasy. The light and dark are merely a delictical confrontation, just like thinking/feeling, introversion/extroversion, up/down. This is what history tells, so your veiw on history is flawed, for it is merely a dilectical confrontation. West(capitalism) vs East (communism). Neither is good or evil, but according to one side the other side is evil.
If sith kill for no reason, then they are psychotic and suffer from neurotic dissociation. If we tlak about power, power is not evil, it is merely negative animus or had lost touch with the anima (Jung speak). I already mention this once on this board. Anakin became Vadar because he lost touch of his anima (latin for feminine). This is shown through the loss of his mother and his lover Padme. Leia would be the understanding of the anima with Luke, and why he never got the urge for power.

HimoKun, KOTOR give that POV with Kreia and Revan.

I fail to understand the purpose of you saying this:
And everyone is connected to the force. The force is what makes people live.

No, nowhere in KOTOR does in give a POV.

There is only good and evil in Star Wars. You are basing off everything you say off of a assumption that Lucas actually did use this guy's philosphy.

And if he did base it off of Jung, there is too many examples that will prove you wrong. It is not Power that is evil, but lusting for power leads you to the dark side, which is evil. Star Wars is Good vs. Evil, as is shown in everything.

I suggest you listen to the words of Kreia more carefully.

From http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/lucas/archive/1/1.html



Joseph Campbell was influenced by Jung, I have read much about JC, and CJ. If Lucas says they are actually about good overcoming evil, than GL has missed the point that CJ and JC made. That is there is a conflict between two opposites that are trying to make a balance, like bringing balance to the force.

Now you never mentioned thing that prove me wrong, plus 'lust' and 'urge' are the same thing (I suggest reading - I never said power is evil, and said urge (lust) for power), except urge is more general, and you didn't clarify 'is shown in everything'.

Supershadow ha

Originally posted by Neutrality
I suggest you listen to the words of Kreia more carefully.

From http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/lucas/archive/1/1.html



Joseph Campbell was influenced by Jung, I have read much about JC, and CJ. If Lucas says they are actually about good overcoming evil, than GL has missed the point that CJ and JC made. That is there is a conflict between two opposites that are trying to make a balance, like bringing balance to the force.

Now you never mentioned thing that prove me wrong, plus 'lust' and 'urge' are the same thing (I suggest reading - I never said power is evil, and said urge (lust) for power), except urge is more general, and you didn't clarify 'is shown in everything'.




This is why your vision is so fvcked up. SUPERSHADOW IS A LYER. Just to tell you, that he lies about all that stuff. Here is a site which disprove him and brings him off as a complete phony:

http://www.angelfire.com/crazy3/realsupershadow/

Despite that, you may wish to do a google with George Lucas and "The Hero with a Thousand Faces"

Even the DVD special edition has him saying that he based the movies off of mythological archetypes. Infact the Bill Moyers and JC's Power of Myth was done at Skywalker Ranch.

Plus the site you gave is even more bogus than the supershadow one. If supershadow made it up, he obviously got the idea from somewhere.

Originally posted by Neutrality
Despite that, you may wish to do a google with George Lucas and "The Hero with a Thousand Faces"

Plus the site you gave is even more bogus than the supershadow one. If supershadow made it up, he obviously got the idea from somewhere.

"Obviously'? Have you even read his site? All the things on heir are his own creation. His main source of information is his imagination. All those things are complete shit if you bring Supershadow in.

I see you didn't do the internet search than? I don't a f*** about some shadow guy. Even if he got it from his imagination, he somehow still managed to get it right. I was merely getting evidence.. even if the evidence is flawed, doesn't mean all the others that talk about Lucas reading "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and "The Power of Myth" Interview with JC on Skywalker Ranch, etc are bogus.

If the evidence is flawed, then it cannot be used, For it is not right. And since you just admitted the evidence is flawed, then it is dismissed, as in a debate.

Originally posted by Neutrality
Despite that, you may wish to do a google with George Lucas and "The Hero with a Thousand Faces"

Even the DVD special edition has him saying that he based the movies off of mythological archetypes. Infact the Bill Moyers and JC's Power of Myth was done at Skywalker Ranch.

Plus the site you gave is even more bogus than the supershadow one. If supershadow made it up, he obviously got the idea from somewhere.

You must be new. A few things:

- Supershadow is THE original liar in the Star Wars universe. He's been sued at least once, I believe.

- Any site that doesn't have a Lucasarts official seal on it is suspect. In any case, Lucas himself has already made it bloody clear that there is black and white, good and evil in his universe. It is how he intended it to be. Don't start contesting this, since there's already a thread for it, and the idea has been beaten to shit.

- Kreia and Revan aren't moral. They do originally start off with good intnt (as did Dooku) but they strayed from the path of good and became of the dark side in their attempt to learn/the galaxy/etc. This -isn't- neutrality. Neutrality in purpose is the biggest fiction of all time. It also isn't just some ambiguous glob of good and evil mixed into one... Revan lead a war that murdered thousands upon thousands. If his true intent was to conquer this unknown empire from beyond the Outer Rim, he could have come about his goals in a different, more passive nature. Despite Kreia's ramblings, I believe that Revan DID fall and he thought he knew best when he tried to subjugate the Republic. But his efforts are seemingly for naught, since the Republic is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, the Jedi Order was all but destroyed, and because of his actions many worlds were destroyed. Actually, his actions caused more destruction than Sidious' entire campaign. Revan delved into the arts of the Sith, teachings that are inherently evil. He walked evil lands and gathered evil artifacts. He surrounded himself with evil minded people. And he killed innocents. There is no moral ambiguity here. Revan. Is. Evil.

- NJO is a poorly written series, and I'm not the first nor the last to tell you this. It reads like fan fiction and doesn't have any depth to it. Also, the Vong are a pathetic enemy... something like the Borg is to Star Trek... Only making less sense due to the Force immunity.

I thought I already said this, but I'll say it again: If you want EU novels to read, read all the CLone Wars novels. Aside from Jedi Trial (Which was pretty damn terrible) the Clone Wars novels are the cream of the crop in SW books.

Fine, that source of evidence is flawed. But can you dismiss my other sources?

Originally posted by Neutrality
So then why did you say that human history (along with SW) is a conflict between good and evil?

Secondly SW is about bringing a balance to the force.
Look up the archetypes. GL spend two years before SW researching mythological archetypes (Most likely got it from Jung who said to achieve individuation is the harmonizing of the conscious(Light) and unconscious(Dark)). I suggest you do the same so can you can understand better.
Star Wars is among the easier mythologies to understand, reading the myth of religion is far more complicated, and why there is so much neurotic dissasociation today, especally in Islam. It has been so hard for me to find anything there, except with Mary(anima/earth mother) or Khidr(shadow). To my surprise Christianity is full of it despite the state of Christian majority lands. Buddhism is well straight out in the open, next to no mythology there speaking directly about achieving harmony. Greek myths are good to, a lot that are similar to Anakins fall. Dealing with those wanting to achieve power only to fall or going insane. Since Alexander just came out on DVD, they (through King Philip) explain most of those 'falling from might' myths, that even a real person such as Alexander fell victim to(dependimg if he was poisoned or died of typhoid). Aye Kavults

There's just not talking to some people.

Star Wars is not MYTH. It's a science-fictional soap opera.

And it's BECAUSE we believe we're good and the enemy's bad that I said much of our history is based around Light vs. Dark.

Post AND Pre WWll, in Soviet, Communist, Russia under Stalin and the KGB was Bad---Evil.

Star Wars was only ever designed in all 6 movies to be an internal/external struggle between the Light and the Dark, Good and Evil.

Empire--Evil
New republic--Good.

Sith--Evil
Old Republic/Jedi--Good.

Initially starting out, the Yuuzhan Vong were just another Evil factor facing off against the Galactic Alliance, another Good factor. But it was new, fresh, interesting, despite the Force-immune Vong BS.

Couple books in though, we get all this sh*t saying there IS no Good and Bad. "There's only this motherf*cking thing called the Force." to quote that feathery riddle-speaking, Gandalf-like, b*tch Vergere.

Try to understand our (the Star Wars fans) frustration, when we experience 20+ years of Light vs. Dark, and suddenly, in the space of a few books, our fictional imperialist views are brought down around our ears.

Throughout pretty much ALL of Eu and ALL of the movies, it's always been that epic struggle of the Clint Eastwood blowing away Lee Van Cleef type of challenge, if ya get my G + B & Ugly drift.

NJO is trash, or so I've heard from my sources...

TG is right.

Ty ma main Rex.

*summons forth the Jury*

"We the Jury hereby pronounce NJO guilty of being a pile of shit. Recommended sentence is death."

Originally posted by darthrevan89
*summons forth the Jury*

"We the Jury hereby pronounce NJO guilty of being a pile of shit. Recommended sentence is death." "The defendant will be sentenced to two back to back life sentences of watching the prequel trilogy 24/7"

Originally posted by Neutrality
Fine, that source of evidence is flawed. But can you dismiss my other sources?

No, but I don't need to. As stated by Tangible and Janus, STAR WARS IS WHTE AND BLACK HATTED. There is no Gray, as stated in everything. Look at the movies, the books, everything is evil vs. good. Nowhere in the Star Wars universe is it not White vs. Black.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Aye Kavults

There's just not talking to some people.

Star Wars is not MYTH. It's a science-fictional soap opera.

It makes one wonder if anyones has watched the Bonus Material DVD - Empire of Dreams...

Originally posted by Tangible God And it's BECAUSE we believe we're good and the enemy's bad that I said much of our history is based around Light vs. Dark.

Post AND Pre WWll, in Soviet, Communist, Russia under Stalin and the KGB was Bad---Evil.

That is not history. I am not sure what history books your are reading, but those are subjective views. History is suppose to be an objective analysis of events. There is no good and evil in history. Is there good and bad in myth, yes, because it are these opposing elements that help to define ones 'Self' - The Hero, you even say this...
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Originally posted by Tangible God Star Wars was only ever designed in all 6 movies to be an internal/external struggle between the Light and the Dark, Good and Evil.

Yes and this is the Hero archetype in myths. The EU material strips away these mythological motif/archetypes and present thing the way they are, and this is the point of JC (who you will see in picture form in Empire of Dreams, along with commentary by Bill Moyers), that there is no good or evil (Bill Moyers - a Christian - during the Power of Myth interviews disagreed), and CJ said the same.

To quote Jung:

Originally posted by HimoKun
No, but I don't need to. As stated by Tangible and Janus, STAR WARS IS WHTE AND BLACK HATTED. There is no Gray, as stated in everything. Look at the movies, the books, everything is evil vs. good. Nowhere in the Star Wars universe is it not White vs. Black.

Since you are incapable of reading - this was in relation to GL being influenced by Joseph Campbell, and mythologies. You rejected this, so I stated to you need to disprove GL connection to mythological archetypes.

You have merely lost the focus of this discussion which was about Star Wars is based of mythological motifs/archetypes, and the EU is the way things really are when POV are removed.

Originally posted by Neutrality
It makes one wonder if anyones has watched the Bonus Material DVD - Empire of Dreams...



That is not history. I am not sure what history books your are reading, but those are subjective views. History is suppose to be an objective analysis of events. There is no good and evil in history. Is there good and bad in myth, yes, because it are these opposing elements that help to define ones 'Self' - The Hero, you even say this...
||
\/



Yes and this is the Hero archetype in myths. The EU material strips away these mythological motif/archetypes and present thing the way they are, and this is the point of JC (who you will see in picture form in Empire of Dreams, along with commentary by Bill Moyers), that there is no good or evil (Bill Moyers - a Christian - during the Power of Myth interviews disagreed), and CJ said the same.

To quote Jung: For the Love of God....

Most clashes in human history have both sides believing that their idea is the good one, and their enemy's idea is the bad one. Even the Mongels didn't see themselves as evil. Genghis Kahn thought the Persians were Evil when they sliced off the Mongel envoy's head because of a misunderstanding. That misunderstanding was the Persian's thinking the MONGELS were Evil. And they ended up destroyed because of it.

Hitler didn't even see himself as the Bad Guy and the Allies as the good guys. Same with WWl.

Communist Russia under Stalin--he killed like 20 million of his own people and thousands of his officers just out of paranoia. Ya can't saw that's not bad.

And Capitalist America saw soviet Russia as the bad guys, and themselves as the good guys. And vica versa.

The Brits saw the American Colonists as no good rebels and themselves as peacekeepers. The colonists thought they were the oppressed civilians who'd done nothing wrong and the Red Coats as tax loving f*cks.

The Union saw themselves as liberators of the minority blacks, and the Confederates as a slaveholders. And so on and so forth.

All human history is based on each side's views and ideals towards the other. It's still the same today. Western Society are corrupt pigs and must be brought to justice by the Jihad. (Holy Warriors) The terrorists have no respect for human life and love nothing more than anarchy and chaos.

ALL ABOUT OUR OWN PERECEPTION OF WHO'S GOOD AND WHO'S BAD.

You are talking about the people and idealolgies, you are not talking about the history. Mind you, that yes, odealogies and view of the people are included, but this just sets up the cause of events. The historian is not there to cendemn or condon the actions.

You are speaking completely subjectively and not objectively. You question famous scholars like Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell?

Originally posted by Neutrality
You are talking about the people and idealolgies, you are not talking about the history.

You are speaking completely subjectively and not objectively. You question famous scholars like Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell? And you hold them all high and mighty that they can solve the problem of Light vs. Dark in a fictional book series that was neither conceived, written or thought up by GL, who only made up the movies after watching Flash Gordon for 10 years and only gives permission for the books to be published?

Oh and without idealolgies, human civilization would still be struggling through the Iron Age.

Originally posted by Tangible God
And you hold them all high and mighty that they can solve the problem of Light vs. Dark in a fictional book series that was neither conceived, written or thought up by GL, who only made up the movies after watching Flash Gordon for 10 years and only gives permission for the books to be published?

Oh and without idealolgies, human civilization would still be struggling through the Iron Age.

You have trouble reading, GL based stars wars character off mythological archetypes after reading Joseph Campbell.

Originally posted by Neutrality
Since you are incapable of reading - this was in relation to GL being influenced by Joseph Campbell, and mythologies. You rejected this, so I stated to you need to disprove GL connection to mythological archetypes.

You have merely lost the focus of this discussion which was about Star Wars is based of mythological motifs/archetypes, and the EU is the way things really are when POV are removed.

No, you brought up the statement that Dark Side (Persona of Evil) and the Light Side (Persona of Good) did not exist in the Star Wars Universe, but the force is the only thing. Then you went all with all this shit which none of it is official, and most is just people saying that to sell the book. The beggining was me disproving your theory that Star Wars is not a fight of Good vs. Evil, which I have already and so have Tangible and Janus. Yet, you completely ignore Janus. Why? Because he kicked your ass.

And you, Neutrality, have trouble never seeing the 1995 release of SS on video in which GL gives an interview with Leonard Maltin and clearly states in the ANH video that he loved watching Flash Gordon in his youth, and spent much of it devising a fictional Space Opera. With Luke Starkiller as his hero.

Originally posted by Neutrality
You have trouble reading, GL based stars wars character off mythological archetypes after reading Joseph Campbell.

You have shown no hard facts that that is true. Show me a OFFICIAL Lucas statement and I will give you that he based it off of Campbell. But since you haven't, your argument is irrelevant.

Originally posted by HimoKun
You have shown no hard facts that that is true. Show me a OFFICIAL Lucas statement and I will give you that he based it off of Campbell. But since you haven't, your argument is irrelevant. He's got you there NeutralMan. I've seen quite a few GL interviews, including that one in the DVD release, the History of SW stuff, and I don't recall him saying his inspiration solely came from Campbell and Hung slightly to the left...I mean Jung.

Originally posted by Tangible God
He's got you there NeutralMan. I've seen quite a few GL interviews, including that one in the DVD release, the History of SW stuff, and I don't recall him saying his inspiration solely came from Campbell and Hung slightly to the left...I mean Jung.

Did I say solely? Oh and Jung would not be mentioned, but wee JC is CJ is not far behind.

Originally posted by HimoKun
You have shown no hard facts that that is true. Show me a OFFICIAL Lucas statement and I will give you that he based it off of Campbell. But since you haven't, your argument is irrelevant.

But I have, in the Bonus material in the DVD set.

Originally posted by Neutrality
Did I say solely? No, but you're really given the impression that that's what you believe.

Originally posted by Neutrality
Did I say solely?

It does not matter. Your total argument is that Lucas based his characters after archetypes in these guys' books.(Even though the orginal topic was NJO Bullshit about there is no sides but just the force vs. everything else in the Star Wars universe).

Yeah, I mean sh*t man...keep your argument in tune.

Originally posted by HimoKun
It does not matter. Your total argument is that Lucas based his characters after archetypes in these guys' books.(Even though the orginal topic was NJO Bullshit about there is no sides but just the force vs. everything else in the Star Wars universe).

Yes, there is only the force, and this is how it can be linked to Campbell and Jung when you remove the myth. Itis the myth which creates sides, and the social constructs that misunderstand these archetypes.

Originally posted by Neutrality
Yes, there is only the force, and this is how it can be linked to Campbell and Jung when you remove the myth. Itis the myth which creates sides, and the social constructs that misunderstand these archetypes.

What is your evidence that it is only the force?

Unless I am mistaken there is no such think as the Force in real life. So how can you compair it to real life characters save ancient myth?

God, it's not a f*cking myth!

It seems that you only keep saying that because you see NJO as canon (which I guess they are, unfortunately) and therefore as divine law.

Originally posted by Tangible God
God, it's not a f*cking myth!

It seems that you only keep saying that because you see NJO as canon (which I guess they are, unfortunately) and therefore as divine law.

Huh?

Originally posted by darthrevan89
Huh?

He's talking to Neutrality.


And let me handle this, I need no assistance.

Originally posted by HimoKun
He's talking to Neutrality.


And let me handle this, I need no assistance. yeah, i was talking to Neutrality.

We seem to be typing at the same time.

Originally posted by darthrevan89
Unless I am mistaken there is no such think as the Force in real life. So how can you compair it to real life characters save ancient myth?

In real term the force is like the Self, the ego is the Hero who struggles between two opposing aspects. The dark side being the hidden aspects - The Shadow - the unconscious. The Light being the conscious the visual espects of the self. At the end of ROTJ, Luke ego brings balance to the force (Self)

Originally posted by Neutrality
In real term the force is like the Self, the ego is the Hero who struggles between two opposing aspects. The dark side being the hidden aspects - The Shadow - the unconscious. The Light being the conscious the visual espects of the self. At the end of ROTJ, Luke ego brings balance to the force (Self)

You take this too far. Lucas made a movie, but he did not go that far into it. If he did, we'd have a famous philospher and not a producer.

Too true. I'm pretty, while in production of the movies, he wasn't sitting next to Stephen Spielberg, who was rambling on talking about Indiana Jones, and thought to himself, "Did Vader have any hidden aspects? And if he looked at his shadow did he fall unconscious? And what about Luke? Did he have such a huge ego that he sipped martini's between shoots?"

Originally posted by Neutrality
In real term the force is like the Self, the ego is the Hero who struggles between two opposing aspects. The dark side being the hidden aspects - The Shadow - the unconscious. The Light being the conscious the visual espects of the self. At the end of ROTJ, Luke ego brings balance to the force (Self)

My head hurts from trying to understand all this mumbo jumbo.

Originally posted by HimoKun
You take this too far. Lucas made a movie, but he did not go that far into it. If he did, we'd have a famous philospher and not a producer.

This is merely a view into the myth, all scholars that look into myth claim Star Wars in the myth of today, along with the Matrix, and Lord of the Rings. I am not sure about the Matrix, but Tolkin based LOTR on archetypes as well.

Of course they do, Movies are huge nowadays, sh*tty or not. Of course they're going to look into it.

You know, Neutrality actually knows what he's talking about in this particular case... GL DID use such sources, along with about fifty books on world wide religions before he even put pen to paper regarding Star Wars.

Nonetheless, it's what WE the viewers interpret. And Lucas made his movie into a space opera, and that is what we see. And that is what he meant for us to see.

Only people like Neutrality who delve into the movies' sub-consciuos see it as a tale of religious philosphy. I'm sure GL would be proud of you for doing it but he didn't create his movies for such time-wasting projects.

Sigh, I hate to bring this up again.

Umm, operas are myths, or would that be myths are operas. One just needs to look into the Greek myths and easily find that they are.
Also movies have no consciousness to even have the ability to take anything from the subconscious. And at last religious philosophy has nothing to do with what we have been talking about. We are talking about mythological archetypes.
It can not be time-wasting projects when there is no such project and when a person is well versed in such concepts that they can easily make these assumptions while watching reading, or experiencing such events.

Your lack of integration (mostly due to misunderstanding) is fascinating.

Bloody titty f*cking Hell

Anything that is fictional or has never been proven true can be called a myth.

Loch Ness Monster, Sasquash, UFO's, Eskimo's etc. etc.....ya know what I'm getting at.

George Lucas got his whole SW idea from Flash Gordon, as he says when asked what his inspiration was. The Force, which is quite necessary for his idea otherwise it would have been just another "space thing," he of course got from old mythology, modern religion, and old monk beliefs about "Chi." or whatever.

As humans we create such ideologies and beliefs, so George Lucas(as another human remember) would base his mystical energy field off something we Earthlings came up with.

If I recall correctly, the beginning of this dispute began with the whole Light is Good and Dark is Bad, and how we NJO haters hate NJO because the series takes away from this epic struggle, excuse the corniness.

Much of Human History (here we go again) is based around one side believing THEIR values are the right ones, and the opposing side's values are the wrong ones. Religious beliefs play a huge role, like the Crusades. They think the Godless Heathen are barbarians, and the Arabs think the invading Infidel are Usurpers, as one example.

GL made is movies in the form of Light (Good) against Dark (Bad.) Whether the Force is involved or not, you'll still have that. And the whole of SW virtually revolves around the Force, so, having lived with movies and books and games of Light vs. Dark for 20 years, we're gonna feel quite PO'd when you get some hotshot author coming along and saying, "Hey, guess what? There IS no Light or Dark Side, so hence there IS no Good or Bad side to the Force."

Not just that, but GL actually went along with the idea, while STILL making movies about the Light and Dark.

I hope you understand our passionate hate towards the NJO, which, once again I'll remind you, was the unanswered topic of this argument, and thread.

I suggest you actually look up the term myth.

As for history, yes you may say that one side said they were morally good and that the other is not. But Star Wars and most hero myths have the good and the bad, the bad knowing that they do immoral things.

I meant by your standards.

And see, there ya go. Star Wars has the Hero myths of Good vs. Bad.
In closing, that's why we're pissed that NJO took it away.