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Rune Kimg Thor



vs.



Tyrant
(normal)

i would argue that current tyrant is below skyfather, in rune king thor is as high of skyfather as you can get. dude's practically on elder god level.

I like Tyrant but i think the powered Tyrant would be more of a match. Rune King Thor is like a Cosmic God. I' ll rank him marvel's top 10 most powerful being but he'll come close to top 5.

What's the gap between Rune King Thor and normal King Thor like? Normal King Thor is nowhere near top 10 most powerful...

1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. LT
4. Phoenix
5. IG
6. Eternity
7/8/9. Infinity/Death/Oblivion (close enough to equal...)
10. Possibly Exitar and the higher Celestials? Or Full Power Galactus... Or someone I'm completely forgetting.

Originally posted by Dizzle
What's the gap between Rune King Thor and normal King Thor like? Normal King Thor is nowhere near top 10 most powerful...

1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. LT
4. Phoenix
5. IG
6. Eternity
7/8/9. Infinity/Death/Oblivion (close enough to equal...)
10. Possibly Exitar and the higher Celestials? Or Full Power Galactus... Or someone I'm completely forgetting.

Firstly Phoenix should not be there. Regular Thor could match her. She was lucky to stalemate the big G. Secondly HOTU, any tom dick harry with that could be powerful cos HOTU is power of TOAA. I'll put Galactus higher with Rune Thor on par or close.

Originally posted by joesha28
Firstly Phoenix should not be there. Regular Thor could match her. She was lucky to stalemate the big G. Secondly HOTU, any tom dick harry with that could be powerful cos HOTU is power of TOAA. I'll put Galactus higher with Rune Thor on par or close.

*runs to nearby fallout shelter fearing GalacticStorm's wrath*

Is that exactly the same thing as King Thor? If so, he's not even close.

Phoenix is currently doing crazy stuff like rebuilding entire universes, and holding together every universe in the multiverse at the M'kraan Crystal. They explain her as the spark that begins existance, and the great force that ends it. Someone said she's absolutely second to TOAA, which is supposed to carry over to DC for some reason, but I wasn't convinced she could take someone with HOTU or LT. She's damn powerful now.

Friggen Endsong. She needs to be retconned back to the gooder old days where your statement would have been true. Pimpstyle retconned. People hate DC for ridiculous power levels...

EDIT: Joins Draco after giving Phoenix credit where credit is due.

Must be a hype don't worry it'll all cool down

Most likely, but the most current Phoenix is godly powerful. She is literally within the top 3 beings in Marvel, discounting TOAA.

And I still know not the difference between King Thor and Rune King Thor.

Go get Thor:disassembled.........Thor get magic of the runes, making him freaking powerful he caused Ragnorak to happen.

Originally posted by joesha28
Firstly Phoenix should not be there. Regular Thor could match her. She was lucky to stalemate the big G. Secondly HOTU, any tom dick harry with that could be powerful cos HOTU is power of TOAA. I'll put Galactus higher with Rune Thor on par or close.

Thor has never been on Phoenixes level even during the 86-02 retcon period so how you came to that conclusion is beyond me. Well im glad the others set you straight anyway. Saved me from yet another tutoring session.

Here we go again talking bout power levels......

And I still dont know the difference between Rune Thor and Rune KING Thor !!

Originally posted by ImmortalOne
Here we go again talking bout power levels......

And I still dont know the difference between Rune Thor and Rune KING Thor !!

Thor Disassembled explained it all. He was a fu<k!ng beast toward the end of the Ragnarok Saga. Thor went beyond Odin. Normal Tyrant gets beat here. Tyrant's full power however would be a good fight.

King Thor = Man with a M-16.

Rune King Thor = Nation with Nuclear Warheads

Rune King Thor will kick tyrant a$$. Rune King Thor is more like an elder god like his half brother Atum the god-eater, If anything Rune king thor will at Demogorge level. Rune King Thor will be below the cube beings.


1.Toaa
2.phoenix force,living tribunal,true beyonders
3.Eternity/Abraxas,death,galactus (full Potential), Seven friendlys(children of eternity)
4.Infinty, Oblivion, Exitar(celestail)
5.Celestails, Watchers, Galactus normal
6.LOrd Order and Master Chaos,
7.Love and Hate, Ego living planet, The Stranger
8.In betweener
9.Chronus, Set, Cthon, Atum/demogorge,gaea, Rune King thor
10. cube beings moleculman,kublik,beyonder
11. The skyfathers

Here is mine Top ten:
1.) TOAA
2.) Infinite Beings
3.) HOTU
4.) LT
5.) I.G
6.) Phoenix Force
7.) The Star brand
8.) Eternity / Infinity
9.) Order / Chaos
10) Celestials , Galactus , In-between , Stranger etc

Originally posted by kgkg
Here is mine Top ten:
1.) TOAA
2.) Infinite Beings
3.) HOTU
4.) LT
5.) I.G
6.) Phoenix Force
7.) The Star brand
8.) Eternity / Infinity
9.) Order / Chaos
10) Celestials , Galactus , In-between , Stranger etc

Your top ten got dismissed by recent comics. Its cool though KG, i know its hard to keep up to date some times.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your top ten got dismissed by recent comics. Its cool though KG, i know its hard to keep up to date some times.
never this is up-to-date

Also why on earth would the Infinity being be above HOTU? That makes no sense.

Dont worry KG we're all friends here i'll help you out

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Also why on earth would the Infinity being be above HOTU? That makes no sense.
My guess is Infinity beings is close to TOAA

A fraction of its powers Created IG

Originally posted by kgkg
My guess is Infinity beings is close to TOAA

A fraction of its powers Created IG

If the HOTU is TOAA'S power then it should come at the very least second.

A fraction of its power created the IG Gauntlets however the IG being is not continuity anymore. Phoenix is the force marvel now holds responsible for the creation of the multiverse. The I Being had the role when phoenix was retconned, now im afraid phoenix is back in the driving seat.

Also if there are more than one set of Infinity gems if they can exist in other realities then how on earth are they more powerful than phoenix?

As for LT:

bow before the phoenix:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
bow before the phoenix:
that's before the END

nice try GS

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If the HOTU is TOAA'S power then it should come at the very least second.

A fraction of its power created the IG Gauntlets however the IG being is not continuity anymore. Phoenix is the force marvel now holds responsible for the creation of the multiverse. The I Being had the role when phoenix was retconned, now im afraid phoenix is back in the driving seat.

Also if there are more than one set of Infinity gems if they can exist in other realities then how on earth are they more powerful than phoenix?

Did you prove that Phoenix force is what created the Multiverse

Proof of this?

Originally posted by kgkg
that's before the END

nice try GS

Already been dealt with in a previous thread its a good thing i add all my triumphs to my favourites. For anyone interested in the truth have a lil looksie:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=356101&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Already been dealt with in a previous thread its a good thing i add all my triumphs to my favourites. For anyone interested in the truth have a lil looksie:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=356101&perpage=20&pagenumber=3
How was it dealth?

Again you said up to date ohh well

Again I have already explained Forever to you remember

Before the END but current continuity. LT guardian of the multiverse and so is top of the food chain for those seeking to dominate the multiverse. If you get in the way of the cycle of creation however then lil miss grey will manifest herself into the multiverse therefore demoting LT and dealing with said threat. Again for all info check out this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=356101&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

Ciao!!

Originally posted by kgkg
How was it dealth?

Again you said up to date ohh well

Again I have already explained Forever to you remember

Nope. I explained it to you. You typed up what you thought was going on and i clarified your misinterpretation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Before the END but current continuity. LT guardian of the multiverse and so is top of the food chain for those seeking to dominate the multiverse. If you get in the way of the cycle of creation however then lil miss grey will manifest herself into the multiverse therefore demoting LT and dealing with said threat. Again for all info check out this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=356101&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

Ciao!!
You got to be kidding me GS

When did you prove anything about Phoenix not being to be able to be effected by LT.?

Last time I checked Stranger was able to use her Powers.

Again beyond the Multiverse? Since when? can you show me some scans of this so called beyond the Multiverse?

or creator of the multiverse?

Originally posted by kgkg
You got to be kidding me GS

When did you prove anything about Phoenix not being to be able to be effected by LT.?

Last time I checked Stranger was able to use her Powers.

Again beyond the Multiverse? Since when? can you show me some scans of this so called beyond the Multiverse?

or creator of the multiverse?

Oh KG resorting to desperate measures i see? Well the aforementioned thread dealt with all queries and said all that really needed to be said on the matter.

As for beyond the multiverse phoenix resides in the white hot room which is beyond creation, beyond the towers of death which death spends its whole existence creating to house all of the fallen. This was all revealed in classic Xmen. I thought you'd read them like i told you to do? Naughty boy.

Gotta go. Be back on tomorrow morning.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh KG resorting to desperate measures i see? Well the aforementioned thread dealt with all queries and said all that really needed to be said on the matter.

As for beyond the multiverse phoenix resides in the white hot room which is beyond creation, beyond the towers of death which death spends its whole existence creating to house all of the fallen. This was all revealed in classic Xmen. I thought you'd read them like i told you to do? Naughty boy.

What is creation for all who know creation could be the Universe?

Like in the X-men forever

Creation = Universe

Big bang = Creation = PF = Universe

Beyond the Multiverse again no proof, just false theories

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Creation equals any and everything below/outside of heaven/ the afterlife. Creation therefore refers to both the universe and the multiverse.

Phoenix is known to be the force responsible for creation as stated by Eternity and the Stranger in Xmen forever, as stated by Jean herself in Xmen the End as stated by Death inExcalibur 25 and also many a time in Classic Xmen:

Classic X-Men 24 Vacation

We are in Greece,and Mastermind is playing mind-tricks with Jean.He tempts her,saying that mutant are modern gods,and have the right to seize the power.
She’s suddenly overwhelmed by the Phoenix,and replies that he offers what she already possesses,
because she is Phoenix.Now and forever,the power of creation is hers.Through her,the circle remains unbroken.From her comes the end that in itself is a new beginning.Hers is the fire that consumes,yet from its ashes brings forth a new life.Then Jean comes back to her senses,and denies what she said,saying that Phoenix is only a name,she’s Jean Grey,and runs away in shock.

Comments
-Here the idea of the Phoenix as “Alpha and Omega”,is expressed very clearly.
Claremont has repeated the concept many times over the years,saying for example that the phoenix is the first spark that ignited creation and the fire that is destined to consume it.In Excalibur 25 Galactus says that the Phoenix can destroy existence,and Death responds from this destruction always comes a rebirth,it is part of the natural order of things.This is not only consistent with phoenix mythologies,is perfectly logical.Universes die in the fire and is reborn from the fire,from the cosmic egg of the Big Bang.Creation is a Phoenix. Hence the many repeated saying that phoenix is the sum and substance of all that is.

Phoenix is the force ignites/jumpstarts creation, it is one with it and maintains it before eventually consuming it in flame. That is the natural end of a universe, all universes. It is current continuity im afraid. If you look in the F4 Handbook you'll even see in Galactus bio that it was Phoenix that bonded him with the universe she created allowing to survive the end of the old universe and become Galactus.


As for beyond creation LT Jeans name is Phoenix of the white crown. Crown being the white hot room, which is the afterlife as is pretty well established. I think its pretty safe to presume that the afterlife is beyond the multiverse KG.

This is actually funny.

I have at least Three references to Creation = Universal at least 3 references and Phoenix is in two of them

Again assumption vs actually statement from comics

And you have to remember beyond it or whatever doesn’t mean much

the cubes get from beyond the multiverse.

1.) you need to prove multiversal , rite out of the comics not assumption because I already told you Creation = Universal it’s been stated , can you show me an example of creation used for Multiverse?
2.) You keep assuming that Phoenix force is powerful when there are no actually feats of power.

wow rampant copying and pasting...yeah i really have nothign to add BTW

Originally posted by kgkg
This is actually funny.

I have at least Three references to Creation = Universal at least 3 references and Phoenix is in two of them

Again assumption vs actually statement from comics

And you have to remember beyond it or whatever doesn’t mean much

the cubes get from beyond the multiverse.

1.) you need to prove multiversal , rite out of the comics not assumption because I already told you Creation = Universal it’s been stated , can you show me an example of creation used for Multiverse?
2.) You keep assuming that Phoenix force is powerful when there are no actually feats of power.

It is no assumption KG. Creation refers to everything beyond/ below the afterlife. Therefore it includes both the universe and the multiverse. That is not assumption im afraid. The Phoenix consciousness is a multiversal power that certain people in each universe can access because of their genetic potential. Jean is the main phoenix however because she is from the 616 universe, the main marvel universe she is referred to in terms of this universe.

In my previous post ive referred to many instances where phoenix is referred to as the natural end of a universe. The natural order of a universe is that it is created, maintained and destroyed by phoenix. That is not assumption that is stated as previously mentioned in the comics. Therefore it is pretty safe to presume that all universe in the natural scheme of things have this beginning and end. Galactus is a powerful cosmic being that is known to have alternate universe counterparts across the multiverse. Galactus became Galactus because of Phoenix. What does that tell you? Some things KG you have to work out yourself, you're an intelligent boy you dont need everything spelled out for you.

Phoenixes position as a multiversal being is not in debate, this has already been debated however you are running around in circles because you have nothing else to fall back on.

The cube beings come from beyond our multiverse, but they are still within creation. Phoenix resides in the white hot room, the afterlife of marvel. Thats completely different KG. Good attempt though.


There are no feats of power KG? The phoenix is stated by the abstracts to be the natural begining and end of creation, the Phoenix contained the power of the multiversal reset switch that is the M'kraan crystal (a feat that was shown/confirmed to be beyond all but Phoenix), Phoenix connected all of the universes of the multiverse together by projecting a doorway throughout the multiverse (as shown in Excalibur), Phoenix held the 616 universe in her hand (also giving just a little hint that she's outside of the multiverse) and reformed it and rewound its timeline telekinetically, molecule by molecule. Xmen Forever showed that the power of Phoenix was enough to humble LT.

I think thats enough KG. I'll be back on tomorrow to take apart your reply.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It is no assumption KG. Creation refers to everything beyond/ below the afterlife. Therefore it includes both the universe and the multiverse. That is not assumption im afraid. The Phoenix consciousness is a multiversal power that certain people in each universe can access because of their genetic potential. Jean is the main phoenix however because she is from the 616 universe, the main marvel universe she is referred to in terms of this universe.

In my previous post ive referred to many instances where phoenix is referred to as the natural end of a universe. The natural order of a universe is that it is created, maintained and destroyed by phoenix. That is not assumption that is stated as previously mentioned in the comics. Therefore it is pretty safe to presume that all universe in the natural scheme of things have this beginning and end. Galactus is a powerful cosmic being that is known to have alternate universe counterparts across the multiverse. Galactus became Galactus because of Phoenix. What does that tell you? Some things KG you have to work out yourself, you're an intelligent boy you dont need everything spelled out for you.

Phoenixes position as a multiversal being is not in debate, this has already been debated however you are running around in circles because you have nothing else to fall back on.

The cube beings come from beyond our multiverse, but they are still within creation. Phoenix resides in the white hot room, the afterlife of marvel. Thats completely different KG. Good attempt though.


There are no feats of power KG? The phoenix is stated by the abstracts to be the natural begining and end of creation, the Phoenix contained the power of the multiversal reset switch that is the M'kraan crystal (a feat that was shown/confirmed to be beyond all but Phoenix), Phoenix connected all of the universes of the multiverse together by projecting a doorway throughout the multiverse (as shown in Excalibur), Phoenix held the 616 universe in her hand (also giving just a little hint that she's outside of the multiverse) and reformed it and rewound its timeline telekinetically, molecule by molecule. Xmen Forever showed that the power of Phoenix was enough to humble LT.

I think thats enough KG. I'll be back on tomorrow to take apart your reply.

Tell you what

You find me a scan that say Phoenix Force created the Multiverse and you win it is that simple

Originally posted by Dizzle
What's the gap between Rune King Thor and normal King Thor like? Normal King Thor is nowhere near top 10 most powerful...

1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. LT
4. Phoenix
5. IG
6. Eternity
7/8/9. Infinity/Death/Oblivion (close enough to equal...)
10. Possibly Exitar and the higher Celestials? Or Full Power Galactus... Or someone I'm completely forgetting.


Phoenix is not above Eternity/Death/Oblivion or any of the abstracts.

hey galactic what comic is that from with the phoenix scans

and can i download it

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Phoenix is not above Eternity/Death/Oblivion or any of the abstracts.

Darth you're so outdated on your info. I suggest you read Xmen Forever and New Xmen. Phoenix is responsible for their creation.

Originally posted by Ethereal
hey galactic what comic is that from with the phoenix scans

and can i download it

Cool. Theyre from Xmen forever. If you dont have it already then download New Xmen as well. It was really good.

I've been staying out of these Phoenix debates, but upon really analyzing the arguments being presented as to how Phoenix is supposedly the most powerful being under

God in Marvel, GS, I just want to add that I seriously think there is a confusion between purpose and power. The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power. I can use a pencil to draw a picture and an eraser to make corrections, but the pencil has no influence on something I've written in permanent ink or accidentally spilled and stained on the same canvas.

Phoenix is essentially the TOAA's pencil.

He used the Phoenix force to sketch (create) multiversal existence, and erase it when necessary so he can make changes or draw a new picture. Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil) and keeps everything in order, the Anomaly is, well, anomalous, and outside the bounds of multiversal influence and reason (and no, I'm not making this character up, it's real. It's sole purpose is being the embodiment of, well, anomalies, and nothing in the multiverse can really effect it so long as there is existence. That's it's sole purpose. Marvel writers go to far sometimes), Anthromopomorpho's purpose is creating M-Bodies; the manifestation bodies for all the abstracts and cosmic deities, and the Time Twisters and Time-Keepers have domain over time and reality and usher in the end of all time, even to the point where their purpose is outside of the jurisdiction of the LT. Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.

Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.

GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".

I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.

The Phoenix Force is used to create life and burn away existence to begin anew in the multiverse.

Living Tribunal was created to maintain balance and defend existence in the multiverse Phoenix was used to create.

My oven bakes bread and broils meat, burns it up when I leave it in there too long, and is there to cook another meal.

My gun and my Louisville Slugger protect my oven that cooks my meals, and the place where I eat and sleep.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Now I'll go back to sticking with the street level debates where things are much more simple...




til Batman is brought up.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I've been staying out of these Phoenix debates, but upon really analyzing the arguments being presented as to how Phoenix is supposedly the most powerful being under

God in Marvel, GS, I just want to add that I seriously think there is a confusion between purpose and power. The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power. I can use a pencil to draw a picture and an eraser to make corrections, but the pencil has no influence on something I've written in permanent ink or accidentally spilled and stained on the same canvas.

Phoenix is essentially the TOAA's pencil.

He used the Phoenix force to sketch (create) multiversal existence, and erase it when necessary so he can make changes or draw a new picture. Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil) and keeps everything in order, the Anomaly is, well, anomalous, and outside the bounds of multiversal influence and reason (and no, I'm not making this character up, it's real. It's sole purpose is being the embodiment of, well, anomalies, and nothing in the multiverse can really effect it so long as there is existence. That's it's sole purpose. Marvel writers go to far sometimes), Anthromopomorpho's purpose is creating M-Bodies; the manifestation bodies for all the abstracts and cosmic deities, and the Time Twisters and Time-Keepers have domain over time and reality and usher in the end of all time, even to the point where their purpose is outside of the jurisdiction of the LT. Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.

Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.

GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".

I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.

The Phoenix Force is used to create life and burn away existence to begin anew in the multiverse.

Living Tribunal was created to maintain balance and defend existence in the multiverse Phoenix was used to create.

My oven bakes bread and broils meat, burns it up when I leave it in there too long, and is there to cook another meal.

My gun and my Louisville Slugger protect my oven that cooks my meals, and the place where I eat and sleep.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Now I'll go back to sticking with the street level debates where things are much more simple...




til Batman is brought up.

very good post sir, it should enlighten many

Originally posted by illadelph12
I've been staying out of these Phoenix debates, but upon really analyzing the arguments being presented as to how Phoenix is supposedly the most powerful being under

God in Marvel, GS, I just want to add that I seriously think there is a confusion between purpose and power. The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power. I can use a pencil to draw a picture and an eraser to make corrections, but the pencil has no influence on something I've written in permanent ink or accidentally spilled and stained on the same canvas.

Phoenix is essentially the TOAA's pencil.

He used the Phoenix force to sketch (create) multiversal existence, and erase it when necessary so he can make changes or draw a new picture. Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil) and keeps everything in order, the Anomaly is, well, anomalous, and outside the bounds of multiversal influence and reason (and no, I'm not making this character up, it's real. It's sole purpose is being the embodiment of, well, anomalies, and nothing in the multiverse can really effect it so long as there is existence. That's it's sole purpose. Marvel writers go to far sometimes), Anthromopomorpho's purpose is creating M-Bodies; the manifestation bodies for all the abstracts and cosmic deities, and the Time Twisters and Time-Keepers have domain over time and reality and usher in the end of all time, even to the point where their purpose is outside of the jurisdiction of the LT. Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.

Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.

GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".

I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.

The Phoenix Force is used to create life and burn away existence to begin anew in the multiverse.

Living Tribunal was created to maintain balance and defend existence in the multiverse Phoenix was used to create.

My oven bakes bread and broils meat, burns it up when I leave it in there too long, and is there to cook another meal.

My gun and my Louisville Slugger protect my oven that cooks my meals, and the place where I eat and sleep.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Now I'll go back to sticking with the street level debates where things are much more simple...




til Batman is brought up.

batman with prep can bet them all.........................serious no joke.

Its nice to see a fresh face and a different view point in this never ending phoenix argument. Thank you illadelph your view is valued. However i have not confused purpose with power. All my claims i have now backed up with scans or quotes with a reference to the issues they have come from. So it is not a case of me speculating and then coming to a conclusion. Im just presenting to the forum whats already there in the comics.





""""""""""""""""""""""""The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Well this much is obvious. When have i ever stated the contrary? As the supreme being of course TOAA could do that. Phoenix is his creation aspect. You've left me very confused.




""""" Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil)

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

True.LT does safeguard the multiverse Phoenix created i have not disputed his role. LT however is not a constant throughout the creation process that is where you are wrong. At the end of creation LT is shown to be one of the entities replaced and surpassed by an evolved humanity. This evolution and replacement of LT and the abstracts is is a signal to phoenix. It then consumes the multiverse

In X-Men Forever 6: Tomorrow begins Today the Stranger planned to speed up human evolution in order to collapse creation and emerge as the supreme being of the next reality using phoenix. Eternity freezes time in order to talk to Jean.He tells her that creation continually moves between life and death,order and chaos.The Phoenix is the resurrection force,the assurance of life after death.The Celestials have put in every race the potential to become greater than the abstract entities (LT was included in the comic as one of the beings affected by this process) and bring the creation to its end.Creation will plunge into Oblivion,but in time Creation will renew itself:it is a cyclical process,the natural order of things.


- The Abstract are reflections of the Universe.They can be substituted,and their slot occupied by others.Humanity has been said to have the potential to replace them,and in any case they wont last more than this version of the Universe.The Phoenix on the other hand is not an abstract,is a force.It is the very force of creation that keeps the process going on forever. Phoenix is the only constant in creation.





"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.

Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

It seems you are the confused one Ill. No offence intended. That is not and never has been my line of logic i think perhaps you have misinterpreted. Show me where you believe that i have portrayed that to be my logic and i'll set you straight. The M bodies are only required so that the abstracts can manifest themselves as a physical body within reality. Anth is just a tool for the abstracts just as the Celestials are just a tool for Eternity. He certainly does not own the abstracts i.m.o not through the role he has.





"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Some people doubted that Phoenix was even beyond the likes of Galactus (despite the latest F4 handbook showing she/it is responsible for his creation) or Eternity. That scene helped to give people an idea of phoenixes standing. It is hardly inconsequential Ill. I have never once used this as a sole reason for why Phoenix is second only to TOAA ive just listed it as one of her feats so i fail to see your point here. LT may be able to do all of that but presumably unknown to you until now the Phoenix power has been shown in comic book form to be greater than LT, shown to be the only constant in creation. LT along with the other abstracts are all affected by the cycle of creation. Read Xmen Forever for more details. That point about the END was complete speculation i really dont know where that came from.





"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.

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He certainly could try anyway. At the end of the day LT is affected by the power of creation he is one of those surpassed and replaced by humanity he is affected by the cycle of creation he's one of its "victims"

As for your summary on their roles and positions. That is also not quite correct. Phoenix doesnt just do those things, Phoenix acts as a multiversal doctor, she/it maintains creation through avatars which perform microsurgery from inside reality. For example the M'kraan crystal incident, the sterilisation of earth from Sublime.

I havent confused purpose with power in the slightest.

That was a good post though. Credit where credits due. Its just that it was based on incomplete info and that was its downfall. With that info presented the post while logical and well presented, falls apart because its keystone was the point that LT and some other abstracts are constants or permament ink to phoenixes eraser and pencil. That was incorrect.

.

I think there in lies our misunderstanding GS, or rather, difference of opinion. TOAA created all, Phoenix just happens to be the name of the power he used (parallel to the belief in our reality of God the creator and the Holy Spirit, the energy of life). Saying "Phoenix is responsible for creating the abstracts" makes it seem like it was a personal feat. TOAA created existence using a power which has been deemed "the Phoenix Force". The beings created also use "the Phoenix Force", if you think about it, because it's the base of all creation and in all things that exists.

The Phoenix force is the self-sustaining base element of existence in the Marvel Universe.

There are beings, like Anomaly (and LT, save a retcon I'm unaware of), that are constants throughout the multiverse, and survive these 'ends' (or better, 'remodellings') of universes that the Phoenix Force brings about. When the 616 Universe gets torn down to build a new duplex with a pool, LT, Anomaly, the Time Twisters and their divergents the Time Keepers, and Anthromopomorpho will still exist. Abstracts like Eternity, Oblivion, Lord Chaos and the others..., not so much (Bye-bye Galactus. Here's a T-shirt.). They'll be replaced in the next cycle by new representative entities, just as their counterparts in alternate universes and realities will be replaced when the cycle comes to them.

Anomaly is a kind of anti embodiment. So long as there is existence there is Anomaly. It represents the unbalance and the unknown (if that makes sense, I didn't create the character. Don't blame me). Sort of like Phoenix: Life, Death, and Life Anew, while Anomaly: Known, unknown, and continued, uh, well, unknown.

There will always be life (Phoenix), and so there will always be ignorance (Anomaly).

Poetic, isn't it.

As for Phoenix's "doctor" role, LT performs the same functions.

When a universe becomes a cancer to the multiverse, LT can:

A) Cuts it out of the whole to protect the remainder.
B) Quarantines it off from the rest of creation.
C) Fix it.

But don't touch the sides or you'll get buzzed.

It's a cosmic game of Operation.
http://boilerhouseblog.com/fishcakes/wp-content/photos/operation.jpg

I believe LT could have fixed the M'Krann crystal if that had been within the bounds of his purpose, but, it's one of the sole duties and purposes of the Phoenix Force, so that's who/what got the job done.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought LT wasn't an 'abstract'. I know he has an M-Body, but the abstracts are conceptual embodiments (embodiment of order, embodiment of chaos, embodiment of love, embodiment of hate, embodiment of death, etc.). LT is the commissioned overseer of all existence, created by TOAA for that sole purpose; not for the manifestation or embodiment of a concept, but for the sole purpose of protecting creation, from the beginning. If that's changed or been retconned, could you tell me in which book?

Now , as for this thing about humanity evolving to eventually replace the abstracts, that's both interesting and puzzling. Now, as a kind of philosophy nut myself, I, personally, do believe in a possibility of thought, concept, and reality being one, though humanity (in real life, not in comics) doesn't have the mental ability currently to perceive and manipulate this part of our reality. God (if you believe he/she/it exists) can manifest thought into reality, and we, being created in his image (again, if you believe), more than likely could also pull this off, but due to our adopting the concept of 'impossible', we don't reach our full potential due to limiting ourselves. I like that idea for a storyline in a comic. It's a philosophy I've always tried to come to grips with and thrown around in my head constantly. Kind of the whole "Why are we here and what is our purpose and potential?" question that drives us on.



As far as in comics (back on topic), is this evolutionary step a multiversal or universal event? There are universes and realities within the Marvel Multiverse where humans do not exist, and others still where humans do exist, but the Celestials did not manipulate the genes of the species to create these various mutations that manifest in the 616 main Marvel universe, so I'm thinking it's more of a 616 universe exclusive event in which the humans will evolve to a state where they will replace the abstracts in the hierarchy, I don't think it's on a multiversal scale, meaning that in an alternate universe, like the one with the anti-Galactus being named Mystery (a 'female' abstract that brings life energy to dying planets rather than feeding on the life energy of living planets), this event will likely not take place. Where is this scenario examined GS?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its nice to see a fresh face and a different view point in this never ending phoenix argument. Thank you illadelph your view is valued. However i have not confused purpose with power. All my claims i have now backed up with scans or quotes with a reference to the issues they have come from. So it is not a case of me speculating and then coming to a conclusion. Im just presenting to the forum whats already there in the comics.





""""""""""""""""""""""""The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Well this much is obvious. When have i ever stated the contrary? As the supreme being of course TOAA could do that. Phoenix is his creation aspect. You've left me very confused.




""""" Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil)

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

True.LT does safeguard the multiverse Phoenix created i have not disputed his role. LT however is not a constant throughout the creation process that is where you are wrong. At the end of creation LT is shown to be one of the entities replaced and surpassed by an evolved humanity. This evolution and replacement of LT and the abstracts is is a signal to phoenix. It then consumes the multiverse

In X-Men Forever 6: Tomorrow begins Today the Stranger planned to speed up human evolution in order to collapse creation and emerge as the supreme being of the next reality using phoenix. Eternity freezes time in order to talk to Jean.He tells her that creation continually moves between life and death,order and chaos.The Phoenix is the resurrection force,the assurance of life after death.The Celestials have put in every race the potential to become greater than the abstract entities (LT was included in the comic as one of the beings affected by this process) and bring the creation to its end.Creation will plunge into Oblivion,but in time Creation will renew itself:it is a cyclical process,the natural order of things.


- The Abstract are reflections of the Universe.They can be substituted,and their slot occupied by others.Humanity has been said to have the potential to replace them,and in any case they wont last more than this version of the Universe.The Phoenix on the other hand is not an abstract,is a force.It is the very force of creation that keeps the process going on forever. Phoenix is the only constant in creation.





"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.

Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

It seems you are the confused one Ill. No offence intended. That is not and never has been my line of logic i think perhaps you have misinterpreted. Show me where you believe that i have portrayed that to be my logic and i'll set you straight. The M bodies are only required so that the abstracts can manifest themselves as a physical body within reality. Anth is just a tool for the abstracts just as the Celestials are just a tool for Eternity. He certainly does not own the abstracts i.m.o not through the role he has.





"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".
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Some people doubted that Phoenix was even beyond the likes of Galactus (despite the latest F4 handbook showing she/it is responsible for his creation) or Eternity. That scene helped to give people an idea of phoenixes standing. It is hardly inconsequential Ill. I have never once used this as a sole reason for why Phoenix is second only to TOAA ive just listed it as one of her feats so i fail to see your point here. LT may be able to do all of that but presumably unknown to you until now the Phoenix power has been shown in comic book form to be greater than LT, shown to be the only constant in creation. LT along with the other abstracts are all affected by the cycle of creation. Read Xmen Forever for more details. That point about the END was complete speculation i really dont know where that came from.





"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.

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He certainly could try anyway. At the end of the day LT is affected by the power of creation he is one of those surpassed and replaced by humanity he is affected by the cycle of creation he's one of its "victims"

As for your summary on their roles and positions. That is also not quite correct. Phoenix doesnt just do those things, Phoenix acts as a multiversal doctor, she/it maintains creation through avatars which perform microsurgery from inside reality. For example the M'kraan crystal incident, the sterilisation of earth from Sublime.

I havent confused purpose with power in the slightest.

Fanboyism to the extreme.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" I think there in lies our misunderstanding GS, or rather, difference of opinion. TOAA created all, Phoenix just happens to be the name of the power he used (parallel to the belief in our reality of God the creator and the Holy Spirit, the energy of life). Saying "Phoenix is responsible for creating the abstracts" makes it seem like it was a personal feat. TOAA created existence using a power which has been deemed "the Phoenix Force". The beings created also use "the Phoenix Force", if you think about it, because it's the base of all creation and in all things that exists.

The Phoenix force is the self-sustaining base element of existence in the Marvel Universe.

There are beings, like Anomaly (and LT, save a retcon I'm unaware of), that are constants throughout the multiverse, and survive these 'ends' (or better, 'remodellings') of universes that the Phoenix Force brings about. When the 616 Universe gets torn down to build a new duplex with a pool, LT, Anomaly, the Time Twisters and their divergents the Time Keepers, and Anthromopomorpho will still exist. Abstracts like Eternity, Oblivion, Lord Chaos and the others..., not so much (Bye-bye Galactus. Here's a T-shirt.). They'll be replaced in the next cycle by new representative entities, just as their counterparts in alternate universes and realities will be replaced when the cycle comes to them.

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Phoenix as you rightly said is Gods creation tool. It makes, maintains and destroys creation. Phoenix is the sum and substance of all that is all matter life and energy in the multiverse however it is a force it is not an entity. It is just Gods creation tool. Special individuals are born across the multiverse with phoenix potential. The power to tap into Gods creation power in order to carry out his work in the multiverse. They are the phoenixes. The ultimate mutation, the ultimate potential. Jean as the phoenix of the white crown has a special relationship with the force and as stated is second only to TOAA with this power. It is the white crown phoenix (Jean) who does the creating and the destroying of creation as she said in Xmen The End: ""Phoenix is the perfect tool for jumstarting creation however to do this it needs a human touch""

Jean was talking of her role as Phoenix. Yes the Phoenix power is just gods creation power source however all of the work is done through avatars. The multiverse, the abstracts are all created from the phoenix power, everything made by Marvels God stems from his creation power, his/its phoenix power as you rightly said. The only element you missed out was the role of the white crown avatar.




""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""There are beings, like Anomaly (and LT, save a retcon I'm unaware of), that are constants throughout the multiverse, and survive these 'ends' (or better, 'remodellings') of universes that the Phoenix Force brings about. When the 616 Universe gets torn down to build a new duplex with a pool, LT, Anomaly, the Time Twisters and their divergents the Time Keepers, and Anthromopomorpho will still exist. Abstracts like Eternity, Oblivion, Lord Chaos and the others..., not so much (Bye-bye Galactus. Here's a T-shirt.). They'll be replaced in the next cycle by new representative entities, just as their counterparts in alternate universes and realities will be replaced when the cycle comes to them.
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Well as ive already told you in Xmen Forever Eternity talks to Jean and tells her that the Phoenix is the natural beginning and end of a universe its just the natural order of things. The evolution of humanity is a signal for Phoenix to bring about this end because they surpass and replace the abstracts and LT as shown in the comic. LT is not a constant at the end of creation(the multiverse) as shown in the comic when phoenix ends everything and takes everything back to the white hot room where it all originated from LT is shown to be a victim of the process. I know what you're saying Ill and its well thought out. If it wasnt in comic book form you'd actually have a point but thats not the case.



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As for Phoenix's "doctor" role, LT performs the same functions.

When a universe becomes a cancer to the multiverse, LT can:

A) Cuts it out of the whole to protect the remainder.
B) Quarantines it off from the rest of creation.
C) Fix it.


I believe LT could have fixed the M'Krann crystal if that had been within the bounds of his purpose, but, it's one of the sole duties and purposes of the Phoenix Force, so that's who/what got the job done.
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Its just speculation whether LT could have done it or not. In A.O.A when Jean hadnt reached the ultimate potential yet due to lack of training where was LT to prevent the end of the multiverse brought about by the crystal? If bishop hadnt changed history then LT would have been out of a job. I could very well speculate that in the Secret Wars Thor could have braced the mountain just as well as the Hulk did but thats meaningless. We'll never know. At the end of the day in comic book form LT is seen as a victim of the creation process. Thats not debatable. What that suggests is that he a new LT is made at the beginning of the creation cycle.


"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""As far as in comics (back on topic), is this evolutionary step a multiversal or universal event? There are universes and realities within the Marvel Multiverse where humans do not exist, and others still where humans do exist, but the Celestials did not manipulate the genes of the species to create these various mutations that manifest in the 616 main Marvel universe, so I'm thinking it's more of a 616 universe exclusive event in which the humans will evolve to a state where they will replace the abstracts in the hierarchy, I don't think it's on a multiversal scale, meaning that in an alternate universe, like the one with the anti-Galactus being named Mystery (a 'female' abstract that brings life energy to dying planets rather than feeding on the life energy of living planets), this event will likely not take place. Where is this scenario examined GS?

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The fact that LT gets replaced suggests that its ultimately a multiversal event (each universe might not be at the same stage of evolution, so they might end at different times)

Eternity stated that this evolution is a natural part of a universes cycle.

There are many avatars of different species across the multiverse (as shown in New Xmen 154) which also supports the fact that its ultimately a multiversal event.

For info have a read of Xmen Forever 1 to 6 and New Xmen 128, and 147 to 154.

Originally posted by Maestro
Fanboyism to the extreme.

Instead of making snidey comments and then running away to your cesspit why dont you explain yourself like a man. Have you even bothered to properly read this post. Have you checked the references ive made? I dont believe you have, otherwise you wouldnt have made such a childish comment. It would be a case of fanboyism if i wasnt just referring to events and ideas straight out of the comics but i am. I can and have backed up my claims. Back under your bridge you troll.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Darth you're so outdated on your info. I suggest you read Xmen Forever and New Xmen. Phoenix is responsible for their creation.

No his not, his sane

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
No his not, his sane

Yeah ive missed you to

Whirly........... at a point everyone hates you........... but now, everyone wants you kiss you !!!


Does that sound gay ?? If it does, SORRY !!!

But the PF has never shown to be capable of being able to "beat" LT as of right now, many trillion light years later, maybe, but not at this moment.

We can't go by potential, otherwise every john doe mutant on the street is > Eternity because humans/mutants will one day take their place.

Originally posted by long pig
But the PF has never shown to be capable of being able to "beat" LT as of right now, many trillion light years later, maybe, but not at this moment.

We can't go by potential, otherwise every john doe mutant on the street is > Eternity because humans/mutants will one day take their place.
True

Originally posted by long pig
But the PF has never shown to be capable of being able to "beat" LT as of right now, many trillion light years later, maybe, but not at this moment.

We can't go by potential, otherwise every john doe mutant on the street is > Eternity because humans/mutants will one day take their place.

Its the creation power of T.O.A.A a power second only to him itself. The power is used to begin, maintain and end creation. LT is a victim of this process as shown by Xmen Forever. Theres no change in the status of the power so i find your comment puzzling. As soon as the signal is received by Phoenix then all of creation goes down and LT with it as is clearly depicted.

The thing is... how could such vast reality-ENDING powers can be putten into a body of a female..... ??
Even Beyonder (half power) cannot put his omnipotence into a human form of his creation...

And from what you have posted earlier, its clear that you are saying PF is stronger than Beyonder...

Originally posted by ImmortalOne
The thing is... how could such vast reality-ENDING powers can be putten into a body of a female..... ??
Even Beyonder (half power) cannot put his omnipotence into a human form of his creation...

And from what you have posted earlier, its clear that you are saying PF is stronger than Beyonder...

What you need to remember IO is that Jean was made to have this power. She's always been a phoenix from the moment she was born its in her genetic makeup. Its not like she has been posessed by an entity or she's just suddenly come into a huge amount of power. Its a part of her.

The pre retcon Beyonder was a sentient multiverse. He said in issue 196 of uncanny Xmen that out of all the beings he had come across she was the one who had the potential to become his equal. Bear in mind that Rachel was only a host for the power she has yet to evolve and become an avatar, a direct incarnation of phoenix as jean has. So perhaps thats what he was referring to.

Later on in uncanny xmen 203 the beyonder took back some power he had given to Rachel and as he did so he linked to Rachel and through her he got an insight into the true phoenix force and all it represented. It was too much for him and he fell to the ground humbled.

Plus you'd think the creation power of TOAA is pretty near unbeatable by anything but another god derived force wouldnt you?

O hell....... thanks GS

2guns

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Instead of making snidey comments and then running away to your cesspit why dont you explain yourself like a man. Have you even bothered to properly read this post. Have you checked the references ive made? I dont believe you have, otherwise you wouldnt have made such a childish comment. It would be a case of fanboyism if i wasnt just referring to events and ideas straight out of the comics but i am. I can and have backed up my claims. Back under your bridge you troll.

I have read all your comments and theories about the phoenix force, yet I have still not seen any proof from you that the phoenix force is above LT. You can come up with your own explanations about how phoenix force is above LT or whatever but it isn't backed up by any substantial proof that has been taken from any marvel sources that she's above. Once you actually get some reliable sources post them, then all the people who disagree with you, including me may actually take notice, until then carry on posting your own ideas.

Oh and replying with those remarks just backs up the fact that your a fanboy, if you wasn't a fanboy you wouldn't have come out with such reply to help defend your beloved phoenix. I'm truly looking forward to your 'Phoenix vs TOAA' post in the future.

Originally posted by Maestro
I have read all your comments and theories about the phoenix force, yet I have still not seen any proof from you that the phoenix force is above LT. You can come up with your own explanations about how phoenix force is above LT or whatever but it isn't backed up by any substantial proof that has been taken from any marvel sources that she's above. Once you actually get some reliable sources post them, then all the people who disagree with you, including me may actually take notice, until then carry on posting your own ideas.

Oh and replying with those remarks just backs up the fact that your a fanboy, if you wasn't a fanboy you wouldn't have come out with such reply to help defend your beloved phoenix. I'm truly looking forward to your 'Phoenix vs TOAA' post in the future.

You silly boy if you'd actually properly read this thread you would see why ultimately Phoenix is higher up on the hierarchy. Ive listed references in the past ive even posted scans which back up my claims. That is the reason the majority of people now accept my claims. The only people who disagree are those who havent seen them or havent bothered to read the threads properly. I dont need to go out of my way to convince one individual, especially when they are as rude and insignificant as yourself. You want proof, read this thread again, make note of the references ive kindly listed and then check them out.

Which is more infinite, the points on a line or the points on a sphere? There are soooooo many contradictory stories over the years that there's really no way to reconcile them short of someone writing an "Avengers Forever"-type story to resolve the conflicts. Who ya gonna believe, Thanos Quest, Endsong, Dr. Strange, Captain Marvel, Fantastic Four? These books have all given us mutually incompatable cosmologies. GS obviously considers X-Men to be the athorative text, but that's a fairly arbitrary choice to make. We can no more sort this out than we can count how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Originally posted by joesha28
Firstly Phoenix should not be there. Regular Thor could match her. She was lucky to stalemate the big G. Secondly HOTU, any tom dick harry with that could be powerful cos HOTU is power of TOAA. I'll put Galactus higher with Rune Thor on par or close.

Actully:

1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. Phoenix
4. LT
5. IG
6. Eternity
7/8/9. Infinity/Death/Oblivion (close enough to equal...)
10. Possibly Exitar and the higher Celestial

Here's my main problem with your whole theory GS:

You claim that Phoenix is the only constant (which is feasible as the Phoenix Force is TOAA's power), and that as universes are destroyed in their natural order, LT (who is not a true abstract, but was created by TOAA specifically with the sole purpose of being the caretaker of all creation) and the other 'abstracts' are destroyed and replaced, but LT himself has wiped out and/or quarantined universes, and was there before and after the destruction of universes brought about by the Phoenix (the end of Galan's home universe before he ascended to become an abstract in the then newly formed 616 universe). This cycle is on a successive universal process. You yourself stated that the Phoenix brings about the cleansing and rebirth of a universe before the inhabitants reach the evolutionary step at which they would replace the abstracts. You said:



It's also been shown that this universal 'evolution' is a gradual process, and not all universes within the multiverse reach this state of 'cleansing' at the same point. The multiverse's sum always exists, it's parts are simply cleaned and realligned by the Phoenix. Some universes (like Galactus's home universe) have already come and gone in this process, and LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho and the Time Twisters/Time Keepers were there before it (well, not the Time Keepers and Time Twisters; they were created at the end of all time to usher in the end of all time) and still there afterwards, though the other 'abstracts' cease to exist. Other untold universes have reached this event as well more than likely. Each individual universe has it's own progressive evolutionary term and point where the Phoenix will step in to enact Armageddon and restart it's process, you've hammered home that point with quotes directly from the text, even quoting the conversation between Eternity and Jean when he says that it's the natural order for each individual universe.



It's simple deductive reasoning that LT survives this process because he already has previously, surviving the destructions of prior universes brought about by Phoenix (Like Galan's, and unknown others).

Sometimes an illustration is just an illustration.

That picture of the Phoenix taking all 616 abstracts into the white hot room does not mean it's a multiversal event. The evolution of the 616 universe does not mean that all universes within creation will meet the cleansing process at the same point. That is simply your interpretation. In the Marvel Multiverse universes are constantly coming into creation and being cleansed in the life cycle, and LT's been there since the beginning, as the TOAA intended. I mean, you said yourself:



What do you consider the LT?

Is he not a 'God derived force'? I know he doesn't have a fancy name like "The Phoenix Force", but he is the commissioned overseer, judge, jury, and executioner of all creation in the Marvel Multiverse, designated by the TOAA itself. That has to count for something. He was given that role and power exclusively by TOAA. Whether or not Phoenix was used to create LT is immaterial due to the fact that technically Phoenix is used in all of TOAA's acts of creation, 'Phoenix' is the surname of this power. What is important, moreso, is TOAA's purpose of/for that creation. Who's to say that TOAA couldn't use the Phoenix (creation power) to create something immune to the Phoenix (destruction power)? TOAA can't create absolutes? Seems like a paradox, doesn't it? But when you have things like the Goblin Force and Beyonders floating around out there, who's to say?

It's all in the interpretation.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
It's simple deductive reasoning that LT survives this process because he already has previously, surviving the destructions of prior universes brought about by Phoenix (Like Galan's, and unknown others).

Sometimes an illustration is just an illustration.

That picture of the Phoenix taking all 616 abstracts into the white hot room does not mean it's a multiversal event. The evolution of the 616 universe does not mean that all universes within creation will meet the cleansing process at the same point. That is simply your interpretation. In the Marvel Multiverse universes are constantly coming into creation and being cleansed in the life cycle, and LT's been there since the beginning, as the TOAA intended. I mean, you said yourself:
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

You're not quite understanding Ill. I used the word "ultimately" for a reason when talking about this before. Of course LT will survive the destruction of a universe, but with the destruction of a multiverse LT is going to be out of a job so at the end of it it makes sense that he was depicted as one of the victims of the creation process. It wasnt once LT was depicted it was a few times in the series. I said that ultimately LT ids a victim of the process for that reason. The reason its a multiversal event is because:

Eternity said its part of a universe life cycle to be created and ended by Phoenix

LT is depicted as a victim

In New Xmen #154 the newly evolved from across the multiverse are shown in the white hot room. We know that the only truly evolved in the 616 reality is Jean and Quentin Quire.



"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Is he not a 'God derived force'? I know he doesn't have a fancy name like "The Phoenix Force", but he is the commissioned overseer, judge, jury, and executioner of all creation in the Marvel Multiverse, designated by the TOAA itself. That has to count for something. He was given that role and power exclusively by TOAA. Whether or not Phoenix was used to create LT is immaterial due to the fact that technically Phoenix is used in all of TOAA's acts of creation, 'Phoenix' is the surname of this power. What is important, moreso, is TOAA's purpose of/for that creation. Who's to say that TOAA couldn't use the Phoenix (creation power) to create something immune to the Phoenix (destruction power)? TOAA can't create absolutes? Seems like a paradox, doesn't it? But when you have things like the Goblin Force and Beyonders floating around out there, who's to say?
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

LT is a being created by God, Phoenix is the name for gods creation power, the power creation is made from, is sustained by. Thats the difference. You're missing the point, the way you're talking i slike ive said Phoenix is a match for TOAA. Of course it could create something which could defeat The White Crown Phoenix but whats your point? LT is shown as a victim of the process in comic book form and thats all we've got to go by. The only time their power or status has been compared directly and LT comes up short.

Which, again, brings me back to my point of confusing power with purpose. I'm not missing the point. You said:



The fact that TOAA's power to create and destroy and bring about the Multiversal Life Cycle 'overpowers' LT is immaterial. It does not disprove LT's power, it simply means that when there is no multiverse, there is no reason or purpose for LT to exist because he has no duty, so TOAA reclaims his substance. Just as if TOAA chose not to create and simply exist independently, there would be no purpose for the Phoenix Force (power of creation and destruction) to exist. It's not an example of Phoenix's power, it's simply a display of it enacting it's purpose. I can use a garbage can to dispose of a nuclear warhead, it doesn't make the garbage can more powerful, it simply means the garbage can's purpose is to collect things that are disposed of.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Which, again, brings me back to my point of confusing power with purpose. I'm not missing the point. You said:



The fact that TOAA's power to create and destroy and bring about the Multiversal Life Cycle 'overpowers' LT is immaterial. It does not disprove LT's power, it simply means that when there is no multiverse, there is no reason or purpose for LT to exist because he has no duty, so TOAA reclaims his substance. Just as if TOAA chose not to create and simply exist independently, there would be no purpose for the Phoenix Force (power of creation and destruction) to exist. It's not an example of Phoenix's power, it's simply a display of it enacting it's purpose. I can use a garbage can to dispose of a nuclear warhead, it doesn't make the garbage can more powerful, it simply means the garbage can's purpose is to collect things that are disposed of.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Purpose doesnt equal power however the phoenix power isnt in doubt. Phoenix has had better feats than LT and on top of that we know Phoenix is higher status than LT and that while Phoenix is always of use and importance to existence LT is at times disposable and re-absorbed by the power which spawned him.

LT's power isn't in doubt either.

So long as there's a multiverse, LT will watch over it. When the time comes and TOAA uses the Phoenix to reset creation, a new creation will come, and if TOAA sees fit, which more than like he will, he'll re-install his security system:

the Living Tribunal.

You don't need protection if there's nothing to protect.

It's very simple. The fact that TOAA always has his power of creation (Phoenix) is simply a matter that the TOAA always exists, it's not a display of Phoenix's importance. TOAA could simply choose not to create and hang Phoenix on the shelf, just as it can end creation and not need LT to protect it.

Phoenix's 'feats' aren't feats, it's simply the power of God enacting it's purpose. That 'feat' of Jean holding a universe in her hand and telekinetically remodelling it is simply a nice visual depiction. LT doesn't have his own story arcs or series to display all of his feats in his billions of years of existence, there's no telling what he's done to protect existence in the MU.

Phoenix is the power of creation, so it creates. Phoenix is the power of destruction, so it destroys. Phoenix is the power of life anew, so it thrives through the destruction it brings about, fulfilling it's purpose.

Purpose.

Living Tribunal is the judge of creation, so he judges. Living Tribubal is the executioner of creation, if need be, so he executes. Living Tribunal is the protector of creation, so he protects, fulfilling it's purpose.

Purpose.

If the TOAA did not conceive and produce creation, or if it chose to end creation, there'd be no purpose for Living Tribunal's existence, so he'd have no reason to exist.

If the TOAA did not desire to create and produce creation at all, and simply chose to exist alone as an independent omnipotent entity, there'd be no purpose or reason for the 'Phoenix Force', so it would have no reason to exist.

It's purpose, nothing more.

You use a fork more than you use a sword. It doesn't make the fork more powerful, it simply means the fork has more practical uses. When the time comes, you still reach for your sword.

Phoenix is simply a multi purpose tool, where as Living Tribunal is solely for security reasons. It doesn't make one more powerful than the other, one is simply used for more tasks.

Originally posted by illadelph12
LT's power isn't in doubt either.

So long as there's a multiverse, LT will watch over it. When the time comes and TOAA uses the Phoenix to reset creation, a new creation will come, and if TOAA sees fit, which more than like he will, he'll re-install his security system:

the Living Tribunal.

You don't need protection if there's nothing to protect.

It's very simple. The fact that TOAA always has his power of creation (Phoenix) is simply a matter that the TOAA always exists, it's not a display of Phoenix's importance. TOAA could simply choose not to create and hang Phoenix on the shelf, just as it can end creation and not need LT to protect it.

Phoenix's 'feats' aren't feats, it's simply the power of God enacting it's purpose. That 'feat' of Jean holding a universe in her hand and telekinetically remodelling it is simply a nice visual depiction. LT doesn't have his own story arcs or series to display all of his feats in his billions of years of existence, there's no telling what he's done to protect existence in the MU.

Phoenix is the power of creation, so it creates. Phoenix is the power of destruction, so it destroys. Phoenix is the power of life anew, so it thrives through the destruction it brings about, fulfilling it's purpose.

Purpose.

Living Tribunal is the judge of creation, so he judges. Living Tribubal is the executioner of creation, if need be, so he executes. Living Tribunal is the protector of creation, so he protects, fulfilling it's purpose.

Purpose.

If the TOAA did not conceive and produce creation, or if it chose to end creation, there'd be no purpose for Living Tribunal's existence, so he'd have no reason to exist.

If the TOAA did not desire to create and produce creation at all, and simply chose to exist alone as an independent omnipotent entity, there'd be no purpose or reason for the 'Phoenix Force', so it would have no reason to exist.

It's purpose, nothing more.

You use a fork more than you use a sword. It doesn't make the fork more powerful, it simply means the fork has more practical uses. When the time comes, you still reach for your sword.

Phoenix is simply a multi purpose tool, where as Living Tribunal is solely for security reasons. It doesn't make one more powerful than the other, one is simply used for more tasks. -`

Ill. The Phoenix force is literally the power of God the power he uses to make and the power he uses to destroy. The White Crown Phoenix does his will in the multiverse. As a seperate aspect from the whole that is T.O.A.A this power is said to be second only to TOAA in the comics. So whether the phoenix power is greater than LT should not be in doubt.

LT is a guardian of the multiverse which at the end of creation is absorbed. He is then it seems recreated before the beginning of creation anew. Of course Gods power is greater than something created from said same power.

Therein, again, is a difference of opinion GS.

LT is endowed with power of TOAA as well. TOAA created LT using 'Phoenix' because, well, technically, TOAA creates everything using 'Phoenix'. LT doesn't have the 'Power of Creation', but he has power endowed by the TOAA, to what degree is unknown, but his purpose is known. I think it's an assumption on your part that simply because Phoenix is God's Power of Creation it is more powerful than LT, who is "God's Power of Protection", so to speak. Phoenix's purpose simply transcends the necessity of the Living Tribunal. Phoenix is used to create that which Living Tribunal is used to protect. Without creation, Living Tribunal has no purpose, just as if TOAA chooses not to create, Phoenix has no purpose. They are both 'empowered' by God and carry out his will, they simply have different jobs, with Phoenix having more roles, not necessarily more power.



Not exactly, TOAA could create something equally endowed in power, it doesn't have to be inferior. He simply can't create something more powerful than his own power to create since it's not possible to surpass supreme, only equal. With the concept of supreme you can only be less than or equal to, there is no greater.

Phoenix isn't the supreme. It's the TOAA's power of creation, but TOAA could at a whim make it obsolete or have an equal. There's no telling how many aspects of the TOAA there are. The known aspects are Aspect 1: Power of Creation and Aspect 2: Power to Destroy Creation, with Power to Protection Creation (LT) being Aspect 3, which is not necessary without Aspect 1 being fulfilled.

And you still haven't shown when the entire multiverse will be reset at once. As it stands now there is only evidence of the universal cycles that routinely happen and that Eternity discussed with Phoenix. Are you saying that the progression of the 616 universe, the only universe which Eternity has knowledge of, brings about the necessary purge and reset of the entire Marvel Multiverse, or just that of the 616 where as Eternity, Galactus, Infinity, etc. will cease to exist an be replaced in the next go round, which has already happened before (with the destruction of Galan's/Galactus's home universe and it birthing the 616's creation)?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Therein, again, is a difference of opinion GS.

LT is endowed with power of TOAA as well. TOAA created LT using 'Phoenix' because, well, technically, TOAA creates everything using 'Phoenix'. LT doesn't have the 'Power of Creation', but he has power endowed by the TOAA, to what degree is unknown, but his purpose is known. I think it's an assumption on your part that simply because Phoenix is God's Power of Creation it is more powerful than LT, who is "God's Power of Protection", so to speak. Phoenix's purpose simply transcends the necessity of the Living Tribunal. Phoenix is used to create that which Living Tribunal is used to protect. Without creation, Living Tribunal has no purpose, just as if TOAA chooses not to create, Phoenix has no purpose. They are both 'empowered' by God and carry out his will, they simply have different jobs, with Phoenix having more roles, not necessarily more power.



Not exactly, TOAA could create something equally endowed in power, it doesn't have to be inferior. He simply can't create something more powerful than his own power to create since it's not possible to surpass supreme, only equal. With the concept of supreme you can only be less than or equal to, there is no greater.

Phoenix isn't the supreme. It's the TOAA's power of creation, but TOAA could at a whim make it obsolete or have an equal. There's no telling how many aspects of the TOAA there are. The known aspects are Aspect 1: Power of Creation and Aspect 2: Power to Destroy Creation, with Power to Protection Creation (LT) being Aspect 3, which is not necessary without Aspect 1 being fulfilled.

And you still haven't shown when the entire multiverse will be reset at once. As it stands now there is only evidence of the universal cycles that routinely happen and that Eternity discussed with Phoenix. Are you saying that the progression of the 616 universe, the only universe which Eternity has knowledge of, brings about the necessary purge and reset of the entire Marvel Multiverse, or just that of the 616 where as Eternity, Galactus, Infinity, etc. will cease to exist an be replaced in the next go round, which has already happened before (with the destruction of Galan's/Galactus's home universe and it birthing the 616's creation)?

You seem to have completely misunderstood Ill or just have got confused somewhere down the line. Phoenix is the creation power of God. It is his creation aspect. Just like in DC they have the Presence, the Word, the Source and so on. Those things are all aspects of the same being. Different facets of the whole that is TOAA. That seems to be the misunderstanding. It is literally his/its creation power. It is not a being he created seperately to do his will in the multiverse. So how pray tell is God going to create a being greater than himself. Its like me making out of my own body something greater than me. LT is not an aspect of TOAA im afraid. LT is a being created by God (therefore through the Phoenix power) to protect the multiverse. Of course the Phoenix power is greater than LT. I really dont understand why this is going on so long its quite obvious. Its even stated in the comics that the Phoenix aspect, the creation power of TOAA is second only to the whole TOAA which stands to reason. Its literally a part of him a different facet of the whole that is TOAA. LT is a bveing created by TOAA. Ok?

I'll explain the creation cycle once more. Please take this in. The natural life cycle of a universe is that its created, maintained and then consumed by The White Crown Phoenix. The evolution of a universes beings to the ultimate stage is the signal to Phoenix to end a universe. The universes are presumably not at the same stage in their cycle therefore there end will not occur at the same time. However ULTIMATELY it is a multiversal process. Presumably LT is absorbed when the last universe is consumed by Phoenix. Whether thats the point he is or not is irrelevant the crux of the matter is that he is clearly depicted on a few occassions to be a victim of the process. So what point that happens is really not important to this discussion. Are we understood now?

Nope, I'm not letting you off the hook that easily, GS.



The same has been stated about LT numerous times in the comics.

That statement is immaterial.

And I believe here you are the one that is misunderstanding. I did not say that TOAA could create something more powerful than himself, in fact, I even went out of my way to say the following:



The fact that TOAA created the Living Tribunal does not mean it is inferior to his power of creation (Phoenix) wholely, he could have made it equal in terms of power, but not equal in terms of purpose. He could bestow that level of power upon a creation if he so wished, he simply can't create something which surpasses his ability because that is a paradox, you cannot surpass supreme.

The concept that you are having a problem grasping is the fact that just because the Phoenix has this purpose of creation and destruction does not mean that TOAA could not create something immune to it or outside of it's influence (like true Beyonders who aren't part of this cycle), or that it could create something equal to it in terms of power, but not in purpose. TOAA can create absolutes. LT and Phoenix are more peers than anything else. For instance, when you say:



LT is also the power of God and carries out his will within the multiverse. It could be said that Living Tribunal is TOAA's "avatar" of protection and judgement aspect, if you will. A being posessed with the aspect of TOAA that protects creation and judges their works, but is not necessary when there is no creation.

So, when you say:



You forget the fact that unlike Phoenix, LT is only necessary so long as there is creation, TOAA only needs to protect creation until he sees fit to destroy creation and start over again, so in the time when TOAA sees fit to destroy creation and start anew, the necessity for having the Living Tribunal; the necessity for TOAA to protect creation, ceases. Just as if the TOAA chose not to create at all, the necessity for the Phoenix Force ceases.

The purpose ceases.

The fact that LT's purpose is dependent on Phoenix fulfilling it's purpose does not make Phoenix more powerful than LT. The fact Phoenix is used to create what LT protects does not make Phoenix more powerful. Both of their powers are derived from the same place, Phoenix simply comes first in purpose.

LT can't protect if Phoenix doesn't create, and when Phoenix wipes out creation, LT is no longer necessary to protect the creation, so his substance returns to TOAA, or batter yet, that aspect of TOAA is no longer necessary to act.

The only difference is that Phoenix's purpose is seemingly perpetual, where as LT is dependent on having Phoenix fulfill it's purpose in order for him to operate.

That's not to hard to comprehend, is it?

This really reminds me of nothing so much as a Lutheran and a Catholic arguing the finer points of Consubstantiation vs. Transubstantiation.

Rune King Thor, three out of five.
His newfound divine insight lets him unravel the Tyrant's vast power reserves.

Whats that Cons Trans thing again ??

A fairly fine , one might say hair-splitting, theological point regarding the nature of Holy Comunion (I'm not a theologian, but I was raised by them) about which there have been thousands upon thousands of words of heated rhetoric about how The Other Side Has It All Wrong for the past 500 years or so.

""""""""""""""""""""""Nope, I'm not letting you off the hook that easily, GS.



quote:
Its even stated in the comics that the Phoenix aspect, the creation power of TOAA is second only to the whole TOAA which stands to reason. Its literally a part of him a different facet of the whole that is TOAA. LT is a bveing created by TOAA. Ok?


The same has been stated about LT numerous times in the comics.

That statement is immaterial.

And I believe here you are the one that is misunderstanding. I did not say that TOAA could create something more powerful than himself, in fact, I even went out of my way to say the following:
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Its not about you letting me off on the subject, because what is stated or shown in the comics is the only thing that really matters. When Phoenix was the creation aspect of God when it was first created it was stated to be second only to T.O.A.A at a time when LT was around and being written by the same writer who also wrote in Strange Tales. Phoenix as the creation aspect was greater in both power and purpose.

Then the 86 retcon occurred which lowered phoenix from the creation aspect into just another cosmic being. It was then that entities such as the Infinity Being were created and LT was pushed to prominence. However in 2002 Xmen Forever began the retcon of Phoenix back into the creation aspect. In this title the abstracts were stated to be surpassed in power and scope by the evolving humanity (LT was included in this category by the comic). The Stranger hoped to upset the natural order and bring about the end prematurely. The phoenix power was depicted as being enough to humble LT in those circumstances. Eternity contacted Jean to stop Stranger from tapping into the power before it was too late. With that new info your counter is no longer valid. Maybe I should have explained myself more clearly before but i suggest you read the comic to get a better idea. In the natural scheme of things Phoenix would bring about the end after the signal from humanity and then LT along with everything else would be consumed and taken to the white hot room. However in the comic the Phoenix power was shown as being enough acting outside of those parameters to humble LT.



""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""The fact that TOAA created the Living Tribunal does not mean it is inferior to his power of creation (Phoenix) wholely, he could have made it equal in terms of power, but not equal in terms of purpose. He could bestow that level of power upon a creation if he so wished, he simply can't create something which surpasses his ability because that is a paradox, you cannot surpass supreme.

The concept that you are having a problem grasping is the fact that just because the Phoenix has this purpose of creation and destruction does not mean that TOAA could not create something immune to it or outside of it's influence (like true Beyonders who aren't part of this cycle), or that it could create something equal to it in terms of power, but not in purpose. TOAA can create absolutes. LT and Phoenix are more peers than anything else.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Its not that i have trouble with grasping what you're saying Ill. Far from it. I just dont agree with it. You still seem to be seeing the Phoenix force as a tool created by TOAA for a purpose. What im trying to get through to you is that its literally Gods creation power. It is not a seperate thing created. The White Crown Phoenix (Jean) is one with Gods power and does his will in creation. As for the True Beyonders you dont actually know whether they are a part of the cycle or not so using them as an example is a bad choice. It stands to reason that they are created by God if they are within creation (i.e not in the white hot room, outside of heaven) which they are. Theyre just not in the heroes multiverse. Does that mean that God didnt create them? No it certainly does not. LT and Jean the Phoenix of the White Crown could be seen as peers however the power she draws on is greater than him. Its what spawned him and everything else that exists. The Phoenix of the White Crown (Jean) has a greater purpose as you seem to agree with but what iim trying to get across to you is thatthe Stranger using Jean to draw on this force was shown as being enough to take out LT. It wasnt a matter of LT's purpose being fulfilled. Stranger was bringing the natural order crashing down but Eternity spoke to Jean and told her Stranger needs to be stopped.

LT is not an avatar of TOAA there is no evidence of that whatsoever. It hasnt even been hinted. He is a being created by TOAA. Thats a big difference. Jean is an avatar. A direct incarnation of Gods creation power within our plane of existence.



"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Just as if the TOAA chose not to create at all, the necessity for the Phoenix Force ceases.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

You've misunderstood. Youve made this quite apparent. In those circumstances the necessity for avatars such as Jean ceases. The Phoenix Force is creation power. If he doesnt create it doesnt mean the Phoenix force ceases to be does it. Its an aspect of TOAA see it as another personality of TOAA.

You seem to have a hard time seeing the difference between the avatars and the Phoenix Force. The avatars tap into gods power and it is they who carry out Gods will in the multiverse. It is the White Crown Phoenix who you can deem a peer of LT if you must. However the Phoenix Force Gods creation power is something beyond both. It is just a part of TOAA not a seperate tool he orders around. Thats what you dont seem to be able to grasp.

blah blah blah

<<Its even stated in the comics that the Phoenix aspect, the creation power of TOAA is second only to the whole TOAA which stands to reason.>>

you've said this a couple times. i'm curious what book makes this claim.

<<A fairly fine , one might say hair-splitting, theological point regarding the nature of Holy Comunion (I'm not a theologian, but I was raised by them) about which there have been thousands upon thousands of words of heated rhetoric about how The Other Side Has It All Wrong for the past 500 years or so.>>



lam, man, you totally crack me up. i love your posts. you really should post more often.

<<Whats that Cons Trans thing again ??>>

transubstantiation can be explained like this: gs is cool when talking about other characters, but when the PF is the topic that's a bit of a different animal. in this case, it's like the pf is called down by him, comes into him and actually CHANGES gs into a new substance which, for purposes of this example i will name the GS-FORCE (careful note to gs detractors - that is GS not BS because i am willing to admit that he has actually taught me a few things about the pf. and he usually debates in good faith with good arguments.)

consubstantiation can be viewed like this - imagine any fanboy (wolverine8888 or whoever you so choose). now, fanboy has no NEED to summon any force in a particular debate, because the fanboy COEXISTS with his character - the character is with him at all times wherever he goes.

all clear?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Its even stated in the comics that the Phoenix aspect, the creation power of TOAA is second only to the whole TOAA which stands to reason.>>

you've said this a couple times. i'm curious what book makes this claim.

<<A fairly fine , one might say hair-splitting, theological point regarding the nature of Holy Comunion (I'm not a theologian, but I was raised by them) about which there have been thousands upon thousands of words of heated rhetoric about how The Other Side Has It All Wrong for the past 500 years or so.>>



lam, man, you totally crack me up. i love your posts. you really should post more often.

<<Whats that Cons Trans thing again ??>>

transubstantiation can be explained like this: gs is cool when talking about other characters, but when the PF is the topic that's a bit of a different animal. in this case, it's like the pf is called down by him, comes into him and actually CHANGES gs into a new substance which, for purposes of this example i will name the GS-FORCE (careful note to gs detractors - that is GS not BS because i am willing to admit that he has actually taught me a few things about the pf. and he usually debates in good faith with good arguments.)

consubstantiation can be viewed like this - imagine any fanboy (wolverine8888 or whoever you so choose). now, fanboy has no NEED to summon any force in a particular debate, because the fanboy COEXISTS with his character - the character is with him at all times wherever he goes.

all clear?



Its in Uncanny Xmen 137

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt


Youre so weird

You have got me running all over the place today you b*stard

fishy fishy fishy

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
fishy fishy fishy

Indeed. I wont stop though lol

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Indeed. I wont stop though lol


I hope not

GS, all of that still doesn't prove Phoenix to be more powerful than LT. And you are still missing my point.

As has been shown many times, there are some situations that are outside of LT's jurisdiction. Stranger using the Phoenix Force to undo creation, which is the purpose of the Phoenix Force, is outside of LT's jurisdiction, seeing as to how the Phoenix Force is serving it's purpose (destruction of creation). LT has no say in the matter.

LT may not be a spoken 'avatar' of TOAA, in other words, the term "avatar" has not been used to describe the Tribunal, but his duty, his purpose (the word of the day ), is. LT represents TOAA's protection and authority, carrying out the TOAA's will within creation, just as this White Crown Phoenix you're so fond of and the other Phoenix's do.

LT and Jean, as well as all of creation, get their power from the same place:

TOAA.

Your point:



is mute.

All things created are one with Phoenix and gain power from Phoenix, from TOAA, not just Jean, she just can control a lion's share of the same feast when necessary. You've stated yourself many times that the Phoenix Force, TOAA's power, is what creates and permeates Marvel existence. TOAA's power is the base of all creation, that's not in dispute. Jean acts on the TOAA's behalf using TOAA's power. LT acts on TOAA's behalf, using TOAA's power. The Phoenix Force (TOAA) is what all things created draw power from. The only difference being the roles of the LT (representative of TOAA in Creation) and of the Phoenix Avatar (Representative of TOAA in Creation). LT is dependent on TOAA creating in order for him to serve his role as Protector of Creation. TOAA does not need to protect creation until he creates creation, and he doesn't need to protect creation when he chooses to use his power to destroy creation. If TOAA's power is used to undo creation (THOTU, Phoenix), it's not LT's purpose to stop it because that's the natural order and purpose of the power. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of the purpose superceding LT's jurisdiction, just as LT was unable to act against the Time Twisters, the beings created to bring about the end of all time, from ending time. They were fulfilling their purpose, and as such, LT had no grounds to stop them.

The Phoenix Force (TOAA) is the power supply of both Phoenix and Living Tribunal. Phoenix simply carries out the role of creator and destroyer, while Tribunal carries out the role of protector and disciplinarian. They have complimentary roles, with LT's role being dependent on Phoenix.
The father (LT) can't watch over and discipline the children (creation) until the mother (Phoenix) gives birth (creates), or if the mother (Phoenix) should choose to abort (destroy creation).

Without conception, the role of the father is not necessary.

It's the natural order.

Uncanny #137? The Dark Phoenix Saga?

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""GS, all of that still doesn't prove Phoenix to be more powerful than LT. And you are still missing my point.

As has been shown many times, there are some situations that are outside of LT's jurisdiction. Stranger using the Phoenix Force to undo creation, which is the purpose of the Phoenix Force, is outside of LT's jurisdiction, seeing as to how the Phoenix Force is serving it's purpose (destruction of creation). LT has no say in the matter.

LT may not be a spoken 'avatar' of TOAA, in other words, the term "avatar" has not been used to describe the Tribunal, but his duty, his purpose (the word of the day ), is. LT represents TOAA's protection and authority, carrying out the TOAA's will within creation, just as this White Crown Phoenix you're so fond of and the other Phoenix's do.

LT and Jean, as well as all of creation, get their power from the same place:

TOAA.
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The Stranger using the Phoenix Force to overthrow the other abstracts and end reality to leave himself as the supreme being of the next creation is not the Phoenix fullfilling its purpose. Everything is supposed to be absorbed into the white hot room, Stranger is not supposed to be the supreme being , there is an order to everything Eternity said that the Strangers plans upset this natural order. That is why LT was shown as one of the beings very much concerned with the Strangers actions. He along with the other abstracts conversed and Eternity appeared to Jean and told her that the Stranger must be stopped at all costs. Lt got involved in the matter and he was concerned because the Phoenix power would mean the end of creation. Read the comic. Dont argue based merely on what im saying. Xmen Forever 1 to 6. Your point is countered.

Lt's purpose does not mark him out as an avatar. Ill that is pure speculation and there is no evidence backing that up whatsoever. The Force is the power source of TOAA while Jean is an avatar a direct incarnation of the force within our plane of existence, carrying out the will of god. LT is a being created by God to serve him. Theres a difference.

Their power may come from the same source however Jean as the White Crown Phoenix has a special relationship with the power. She has reached the stage of ultimate mutation which makes her one with it genetically.



""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""All things created are one with Phoenix and gain power from Phoenix, from TOAA, not just Jean, she just can control a lion's share of the same feast when necessary. You've stated yourself many times that the Phoenix Force, TOAA's power, is what creates and permeates Marvel existence. TOAA's power is the base of all creation, that's not in dispute. Jean acts on the TOAA's behalf using TOAA's power. LT acts on TOAA's behalf, using TOAA's power. The Phoenix Force (TOAA) is what all things created draw power from. The only difference being the roles of the LT (representative of TOAA in Creation) and of the Phoenix Avatar (Representative of TOAA in Creation). LT is dependent on TOAA creating in order for him to serve his role as Protector of Creation. TOAA does not need to protect creation until he creates creation, and he doesn't need to protect creation when he chooses to use his power to destroy creation. If TOAA's power is used to undo creation (THOTU, Phoenix), it's not LT's purpose to stop it because that's the natural order and purpose of the power. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of the purpose superceding LT's jurisdiction, just as LT was unable to act against the Time Twisters, the beings created to bring about the end of all time, from ending time. They were fulfilling their purpose, and as such, LT had no grounds to stop them.

The Phoenix Force (TOAA) is the power supply of both Phoenix and Living Tribunal. Phoenix simply carries out the role of creator and destroyer, while Tribunal carries out the role of protector and disciplinarian. They have complimentary roles, with LT's role being dependent on Phoenix.
The father (LT) can't watch over and discipline the children (creation) until the mother (Phoenix) gives birth (creates), or if the mother (Phoenix) should choose to abort (destroy creation).

Without conception, the role of the father is not necessary.

It's the natural order.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

I liked this last part of your post. It was well thought out and it all stands to reason more or less. Just remember that LT did get involved in Xmen Forever he along with the abstracts interferred to safeguard creation from the Stranger unleashing the Phoenix power. A scene depicting what would happen if the power was unleashed was shown and LT was humbled and all of reality had been brought to a standstill with the Stranger ruling above all. That is when Eternity spoke to Jean. Apart from that one thing that was a good post.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Uncanny #137? The Dark Phoenix Saga?

Indeed what the hell is GS talking about I think he is lost now

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Indeed what the hell is GS talking about I think he is lost now

You know what bit im talking about Whirly. The Watcher says it at the beginning of the issue

I think Phoenix and the LT are both hilarious

and need Jesse to tell them where to go

hmm, what thread is this again . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, what thread is this again . . .

Something to do with a Thor upgrade and some knock off Galactus I believe Leo

- Wait a minute - why is Phoenix in here with the LT? Oh I get it the are Omniversal

Exactly, the Stranger attempted to use the Phoenix Force to wipe out creation and lord over it, just as Akhenaton/Thanos used THOTU.

LT can't stop TOAA's power from carrying out it's purpose.

In this instance, even though the Stranger was the one attempting to wield it, the Phoenix Force itself was still fulfilling it's purpose (end creation, then re-create creation). The Stranger was simply attempting to use it to re-create creation in his own image, with hisself being the supreme being. The Phoenix was still fulfilling it's duty as power of creation/destruction, which LT has no say in, it was simply that the Stranger attempted to bring this event about ahead of schedule to meet his own ends.

And guess what, by bringing about the end of creation, LT's purpose as protector of creation is obsolete, so he's not necessary anymore.

This story still does not prove Phoenix's power, just it's purpose.

And, in all honesty, it's a very weak (and played out) story line.

This story is basically Zero Hour, when Hal Jordan tries to use his the Oan powers to manipulate deformities in the fabric of the DCU left behind by the Crisis to re-start creation (destroy and cause a new big bang) in his own image and save Coast City. Just remove Hal Jordan manipulating the Crisis Energies, and insert the Stranger manipulating the Phoenix Force. It's still just a powerful character trying to use a loophole in the fabric of creation to become the supreme being by manipulating the base elements of creation. Nothing spectacular at all.

Stranger tried to bring about the restart of creation by Phoenix with himself in the driver's seat. LT can't stop the Phoenix from fulfilling it's purpose as destroyer and creator, so they had to defer to the Phoenix itself to correct the situation.

That proves Phoenix's power how?

All that proves is that you can't use a screwdriver to remove nails. You need the right tools for the job.

Phoenix was the right tool.

You're quoting The Watcher as part of your argument???

You'd better check your sources. The Watcher's a bald-headed contradiction dispenser, a victim of the "Power Retcon"; another aspect of this cycle of creation Phoenix brings about...

Originally posted by illadelph12
Exactly, the Stranger attempted to use the Phoenix Force to wipe out creation and lord over it, just as Akhenaton/Thanos used THOTU.

LT can't stop TOAA's power from carrying out it's purpose.

In this instance, even though the Stranger was the one attempting to wield it, the Phoenix Force itself was still fulfilling it's purpose (end creation, then re-create creation). The Stranger was simply attempting to use it to re-create creation in his own image, with hisself being the supreme being. The Phoenix was still fulfilling it's duty as power of creation/destruction, which LT has no say in, it was simply that the Stranger attempted to bring this event about ahead of schedule to meet his own ends.

And guess what, by bringing about the end of creation, LT's purpose as protector of creation is obsolete, so he's not necessary anymore.

This story still does not prove Phoenix's power, just it's purpose.

And, in all honesty, it's a very weak (and played out) story line.

This story is basically Zero Hour, when Hal Jordan tries to use his the Oan powers to manipulate deformities in the fabric of the DCU left behind by the Crisis to re-start creation (destroy and cause a new big bang) in his own image and save Coast City. Just remove Hal Jordan manipulating the Crisis Energies, and insert the Stranger manipulating the Phoenix Force. It's still just a powerful character trying to use a loophole in the fabric of creation to become the supreme being by manipulating the base elements of creation. Nothing spectacular at all.

Stranger tried to bring about the restart of creation by Phoenix with himself in the driver's seat. LT can't stop the Phoenix from fulfilling it's purpose as destroyer and creator, so they had to defer to the Phoenix itself to correct the situation.

That proves Phoenix's power how?

All that proves is that you can't use a screwdriver to remove nails. You need the right tools for the job.

Phoenix was the right tool.

The Phoenixes purpose is to maintain the cycle of creation. Through the power the multiverse is created maintained and then destroyed. In the end everything is absorbed back into the white hot room, its point of origin. Phoenix acts to steer evolution across the multiverse towards the realization of the Omega Point in the distant future,and they bring ever-new Universes to the eternal immortality of the White Hot Room,Big Bang after Big Crunch after Big Bang...forever. All being sand universe must be downloaded into the hyperuniversal heaven of the Omega Point/White Hot Room. The Stranger was risking this process upsetting the natural order of things phoenix avatars and LT seek to retain. This would have been an abuse of the phoenix power. Evolution would have been perverted. It was in LT's jurisdiction he did get involved a plan was made to get through to Jean before it was too late.


By tapping into the Phoenix power to bring about the end of creation as Eternity said the Stranger is upsetting the natural order hence the reason LT got involved. Thats the point you seem to be missing. Before this could happen the abstracts and LT conversed and Eternity told Jean to stop this. The fact that LT got involved shows that it is under his jurisdiction. He was clearly shown as one of those involved with stopping Stranger and he was later shown to be one of those who would be humbled by the power. Thats all that really matters You really need to read the comic Ill.

<<I think Phoenix and the LT are both hilarious
and need Jesse to tell them where to go>>



and perhaps someone should tell THESE 2 where to go? namely - the phoenix v lt thread!

Leo buddy Not even the living trib can tell GS to stop blah blah blah about Phoenix, Illadelph is reasonable usually, as is GS except for his bizarre ginger fetish

Where the Tyrant stands a chance is if he could use his world-energy drain process on Asgaurd itself. If sucessful, much of Thor's Odinpower would be lost. It's still possable that the secrets of the Runes might allow Thor to somehow undermine the Tyrant without matching power against power, but I think draining Asgaurd (if he could pull it off) is the Tyrant's best shot at a win.

I also wonder: by smashing the Norns' loom, has Thor joined the ranks of beings, like Warlock and Thanos, for whom the dominions of the various space gods and abstracts are largely irrelevant?

Thor can absorb the life force of all nine worlds and asgard into himself and become even more powerful, and b***h slapping tyrant back to daddy galactus.

Dude.......... You trully hate Tyrant do ya ??

dont matter cuss wolverine will come our of no wear and kill both thor and suprman with his new attack called super fanboy killer. he will put and end to all super heros in both marvel and dc as fortold in the great boook of wolverine. read it , honor it, worshipe it and play with it

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Leo buddy Not even the living trib can tell GS to stop blah blah blah about Phoenix, Illadelph is reasonable usually, as is GS except for his bizarre ginger fetish

Illadelph is being reasonable he just hasnt read the series so his argument is being formed from an incomplete picture. If it wasnt for the comic then Ill would be right and i would agree with him.

Yes, Stranger was upsetting the natural process, well, time table, by bringing about the end before it was scheduled to occur, but LT has no jurisdiction over the means in which he was attempting to go about doing it (though it's without saying that this is a poorly thought out plot device. Why the abstracts couldn't see what the Stranger was up to, or couldn't stop The Stranger beforehand, when some of these beings are omniscient and omnipresent, is beyond me).

The Phoenix's purpose is to destroy existence, just as the Time Twister's purpose is to usher in the end of time. So long as a thread in the tapestry of existence is fulfilling it's purpose (I like that tapestry line), LT can't step in to mend it. The fact that Phoenix was fulfilling it's purpose ahead of schedule doesn't change the fact that it was doing what the Phoenix is meant to do, destroying creation to re-create it anew (same scenario occurred with the Time Twisters).

It was in LT's jurisdiction he did get involved a plan was made to get through to Jean before it was too late.

The abstracts simply warned the Phoenix Avatar that the Stranger was plotting to use the Phoenix Force's (TOAA's) power for a scheme so it could act accordingly. You say this yourself. You're embellishing this event far too much. It doesn't prove Phoenix's power, it just shows that in this instance Phoenix's Avatar acting on it's behalf was the only option for correcting the situation.

The power "humbling" LT is a bad description, we've already come to terms with the fact that if there is no creation there is no purpose for LT (TOAA's protection of creation), and the power that ends creation is Phoenix (TOAA). Stranger using Phoenix to wipe out creation would have nullified the necessity for LT, rendering his purpose mute. That's why he's depicted as being absorbed into the White Hot Room.

Why would TOAA protect creation from TOAA's own power when TOAA's power is attempting to destroy creation as it's meant to do?

If TOAA chooses to wipe out creation, TOAA no longer has reason or need to protect creation, so he reclaims his protection aspect, Living Tribunal, until the time arises for TOAA to protect creation again, where he re-installs LT.

If you don't have a car, you don't need Onstar, Lo-Jack, or a security system (or spinner rims ).

If you don't have creation, you don't need to protect creation.

"""""""""""""""""""""" Yes, Stranger was upsetting the natural process, well, time table, by bringing about the end before it was scheduled to occur, but LT has no jurisdiction over the means in which he was attempting to go about doing it (though it's without saying that this is a poorly thought out plot device. Why the abstracts couldn't see what the Stranger was up to, or couldn't stop The Stranger beforehand, when some of these beings are omniscient and omnipresent, is beyond me).

The Phoenix's purpose is to destroy existence, just as the Time Twister's purpose is to usher in the end of time. So long as a thread in the tapestry of existence is fulfilling it's purpose (I like that tapestry line), LT can't step in to mend it. The fact that Phoenix was fulfilling it's purpose ahead of schedule doesn't change the fact that it was doing what the Phoenix is meant to do, destroying creation to re-create it anew (same scenario occurred with the Time Twisters).

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What you dont seem to be able to grasp is the fact that Stranger wasnt just speeding up the evolution process through Phoenix he was also preventing his absorption into the white hot room therefore abusing the phoenix power , preventing it from fulfilling its purpose. Stranger would have been upsetting the natural order, the balance that LT seeks to keep across the multiverse. This was very much in LT's jurisdiction. LT only gets involved when the natural order is pereverted or can potentially be perverted. He didnt get involved in the IG saga because that was just a case of survival of the fittest natural selection. LT got involved with the HOTU because the power was on a greater scale and it upset the natural order and could go on to have a multiversal effect. Strangers was planning to abuse the power to speed up evolution to bring about the end of creation whilst preventing his absorption so he could lord it over the new abstracts and LT in the new creation. That is a misuse of the power and its use would have about an imbalance in the cosmic forces something LT has jurisdiction over. Which i presume is why he was very much involved. The comic then depcted that if Stranger had this power he would be able to humble LT and all of the other abstracts hi sformer masters. Hence the scan of LT and the others bowing before the Stranger with the phoenix power.




"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""The abstracts simply warned the Phoenix Avatar that the Stranger was plotting to use the Phoenix Force's (TOAA's) power for a scheme so it could act accordingly. You say this yourself. You're embellishing this event far too much. It doesn't prove Phoenix's power, it just shows that in this instance Phoenix's Avatar acting on it's behalf was the only option for correcting the situation.

The power "humbling" LT is a bad description, we've already come to terms with the fact that if there is no creation there is no purpose for LT (TOAA's protection of creation), and the power that ends creation is Phoenix (TOAA). Stranger using Phoenix to wipe out creation would have nullified the necessity for LT, rendering his purpose mute. That's why he's depicted as being absorbed into the White Hot Room.

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LT and the abstracts warned Jean to prevent Stranger from accessing the force through her because if he did then they wouldnt be able to stop him from ending all of creation and remaking it with him as their master in a new creation. That is why the term humbling is just fine. Its not just a case of Stranger speeding up the process and LT being easily absorbed because he's out of a job. The avatars have a reason for wielding the power, they are the tools not the force. Jean must steer evolution towards the convergence with the omega point. Everything must end and be downloaded. That is TOAA's will. Stranger was planning to upset thi sprocess he wasnt merely speeding it up. LT got involved to prevent Strangers plans however if his plans came to fruition LT would have had no power over Stranger tapping into the Phoenix Force as depicted in the comic. He would have ruled in the new creation as the new supreme being of creation.

Rune King Thor or Tyrant

Rune King Thor;

though original Tyrant with his full power reserves (biospheric energy of all planets in the universe) might be able to take him. Wouldn't that really be 'normal' Tyrant, though, not the depowered version?

But anyway, now that that is out of the way...


GS, I'm not misunderstanding, you're embellishing. Stranger was trying to gain the position of Creator and Destroyer by procuring the Phoenix Force (TOAA's power) for himself, through Jean. Basically, he was trying to replace TOAA, by usurping TOAA's power over the creation cycle, and in doing so, power over the abstracts. By obtaining (or becoming one with) the Phoenix Force, Stranger would have the ability to exist outide of the cycle of creation, just as the Phoenix does (though he's not supposed to), and lord over all of creation that he'd shape in his image like a dictator.





It's friggin' Zero Hour with Marvel stand-ins and terminology.

What's not to understand?

It doesn't change the fact that by Stranger using Phoenix to end creation and re-create it, the Phoenix Force is still suiting it's purpose (creator/destroyer/re-creator), it's just being wielded by someone who's not supposed to wield it and would use it to serve his own means.

It doesn't display Phoenix's power, it displays what could happen should someone pervert the purpose of Phoenix. Stranger would have power over creation, destruction, and re-assembly of said creation. LT, as protector of creation, would basically be at a loss because Stranger, through Phoenix (TOAA's power) is out of his jurisdiction. It's the creation/destruction power of God. Lt's the protection power of God. If TOAA's power moves to destroy, it obviously doesn't want to protect, so LT isn't needed. If TOAA's power creates something perverted, LT's comissioned duty is to protect that creation. It's not his place to disapprove, he has his duty to protect. TOAA must protect whatever TOAA creates. Whatever Stranger chooses to do, LT has no say in the matter, his purpose is to protect it. Through Phoenix, Stranger could create a giant mutiversal jar of sewage as the substance of the Marvel multiverse with floating turds as the universes within it and the abstracts as a bunch of South Park characters, and LT would have to protect it because that's his purpose; he's TOAA's protection of things created by TOAA's power.

By the way, this story has gaping plot holes in it:

Why didn't the abstracts or some other beings (like Warlock, etc.) that posess clairvoyance foresee this coming and move against Stranger beforehand?

Guys talk about king thor vs tyrant, this not a phoenix thread

Originally posted by illadelph12
Rune King Thor;

though original Tyrant with his full power reserves (biospheric energy of all planets in the universe) might be able to take him. Wouldn't that really be 'normal' Tyrant, though, not the depowered version?

But anyway, now that that is out of the way...


GS, I'm not misunderstanding, you're embellishing. Stranger was trying to gain the position of Creator and Destroyer by procuring the Phoenix Force (TOAA's power) for himself, through Jean. Basically, he was trying to replace TOAA, by usurping TOAA's power over the creation cycle, and in doing so, power over the abstracts. By obtaining (or becoming one with) the Phoenix Force, Stranger would have the ability to exist outide of the cycle of creation, just as the Phoenix does (though he's not supposed to), and lord over all of creation that he'd shape in his image like a dictator.





It's friggin' Zero Hour with Marvel stand-ins and terminology.

What's not to understand?

It doesn't change the fact that by Stranger using Phoenix to end creation and re-create it, the Phoenix Force is still suiting it's purpose (creator/destroyer/re-creator), it's just being wielded by someone who's not supposed to wield it and would use it to serve his own means.

It doesn't display Phoenix's power, it displays what could happen should someone pervert the purpose of Phoenix. Stranger would have power over creation, destruction, and re-assembly of said creation. LT, as protector of creation, would basically be at a loss because Stranger, through Phoenix (TOAA's power) is out of his jurisdiction. It's the creation/destruction power of God. Lt's the protection power of God. If TOAA's power moves to destroy, it obviously doesn't want to protect, so LT isn't needed. If TOAA's power creates something perverted, LT's comissioned duty is to protect that creation. It's not his place to disapprove, he has his duty to protect. TOAA must protect whatever TOAA creates. Whatever Stranger chooses to do, LT has no say in the matter, his purpose is to protect it. Through Phoenix, Stranger could create a giant mutiversal jar of sewage as the substance of the Marvel multiverse with floating turds as the universes within it and the abstracts as a bunch of South Park characters, and LT would have to protect it because that's his purpose; he's TOAA's protection of things created by TOAA's power.

By the way, this story has gaping plot holes in it:

Why didn't the abstracts or some other beings (like Warlock, etc.) that posess clairvoyance foresee this coming and move against Stranger beforehand?

I disagree with that totally. The Stranger would have been using the phoenix power for something other than what its avatars are commissioned to do with it. By your own words this would result in LT getting involved, which he did. LT wouldnt be involved in the planning if it wasnt within his jurisdiction. Strangers plans didnt just involve creating and destroying. They involved upsetting the cycle of creation.

Thanos having the IG and usurping Eternitys role was part of the natural order, it was just survival of the fittest within the boundaries of creation therefore LT wouldnt even take part in the abstracts schemes he dismissed it and said he wouldnt help and he left. Thats the difference thats what you need to understand. Im not embellishing anything. It was within his jurisdiction because it was against TOAA's will. It wasnt in accordance to what the avatars strive to do. What they are told to do by TOAA.

Your scenario would work out fine if what the Stranger was doing went along with the creation process and therefore TOAA's will but it doesnt. What your basically saying is that LT wouldnt/couldnt move against Stranger with the Phoenix Force because its TOAA's power and the avatars are meant to use this power to create and destroy, therefore LT couldnt get involved right? Thats what you're saying isnt it? Im sorry but thats ridiculous.

Strangers use of the power would be against TOAA's will, he would be placing himself outside of the cycle of creation which virtually all beings are a part of. He would be avoiding absorption and then lording it over creation upsetting the balance the avatars and Lt strive to retain. If its not in line with TOAA's will, then LT would get involved its within his jurisdiction and he did get involved. He talked with the others and discussed a plan just like he did when he got involved when Thanos got THOTU. LT had no problem moving against him.

THIS IS NOT A DARK PHOENIX THREAD. DAMN IT !!!! IT'S KING THOR VS TYRANT, IF YOU GUYS CAN'T TALK ABOUT THE THREAD DON'T GET ON IT.

Yeah stop replying Ill!!!!! lol

Rune King Thor all the way if Tyrants at his depowered level. If he's at his Galactus rivalling levels then he takes it