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the battle takes place in the chamber of the faith zack has the buster sword and jecht has that cool sword he had

Zack; he was a first class SOLDIER ann that's no east task.

Zack totally wins. He is a bad ass SOLDIER and Jecht is a Blitz Ball player. i think it is obvious who wins. don't get me wrong, it would be a good fight but i think Zack takes this one.

i think jecth will take this one i mean he was in the fighting force that defeated sin

But he became Sin. And Zack was in the fighting force that took out Sephiroth.

id love to see this fight it would be great
and still i think jecth could pulll this off

Does Final Aeon form count? Didn't think so. Go Zack. (though both Sin and Final Aeon Jecht would beat his ass up...)

no this is strictly a humna form battle with magic

You never actually fight any form of Jecht besides the Final Aeon... I have no idea what he'd be like normally. Though Tidus would lose pretty easy to Zack, so in human forms, he takes it pretty easily.

Jecht in his final aeon form is hard as hell. He should be the last boss instead of Yu Yavin; piece of trash...phoenix down. VICTORY!

Hahaha, Yu Yevon was my b!tch! So was Jecht though, cuz I went and got all the god weapons and the Magus Sisters before doing the inside of Sin... So Tidus was hitting like 30 000 damage with Caladbolg when I got there. I actually did 2 Holy's and a few physical attacks for the win. The real trick was beating my own Magus Sisters. Which didn't turn out very hard at all.

Now if you wanna get technical, Nemesis is a billion times harder than either. As are pretty much every single one of the creature amalgams. Seriously. They're in the tens of millions of health... And dish out more damage than even the god weapons.

We're talking about the "normal" Jecht?
Zack wins.

Ahh this would be interesting, I do love Zach but ever Jecht just gives off that "badass" vibe....and since playing Dissidia ...where Mr. Jecht Throws meteors and headbutts you do death and punches you to death..and kicks you to death...and basically beats you down..and at times will use his massive sword XD...or his "since im so epic I can block any attack with my one hand" move ... I wanna say Jecht XD

BUT since this was before Dissidia I'd say Zack....

Well, I see it like this. Jecht and Auron helped their mage friend(I think it was Tidus' mom) defeat Sin, and because Sin can never truly be defeated, Jecht sacrificed himself so they could have peace until he became Sin again.

Zack was in a large group that barely defeated Sephiroth if I remember correctly.

I can actually see Jecht taking this.

Originally posted by Ban Mido
Ahh this would be interesting, I do love Zach but ever Jecht just gives off that "badass" vibe....and since playing Dissidia ...where Mr. Jecht Throws meteors and headbutts you do death and punches you to death..and kicks you to death...and basically beats you down..and at times will use his massive sword XD...or his "since im so epic I can block any attack with my one hand" move ... I wanna say Jecht XD

BUT since this was before Dissidia I'd say Zack.... Jeht is like the Juggernaut of Dissidia. Just plain awesome.

If we're talking just human Jecht Zack beats him in the stomp of the century. If Jecht can go BFA mode he has a better chance but Zack still takes it, as he didn't have much trouble with Genesis Avatar.

Originally posted by KingD19
Well, I see it like this. Jecht and Auron helped their mage friend(I think it was Tidus' mom) defeat Sin, and because Sin can never truly be defeated, Jecht sacrificed himself so they could have peace until he became Sin again.

Zack was in a large group that barely defeated Sephiroth if I remember correctly.

I can actually see Jecht taking this.

The mage friend is Lord Braska, Yuna's father.

Zack wins, 'nuff said...

Since Jecht simply has "that cool sword he got" as of the OP than there's not much he has to put him above Zack. For the record I feel people are forgetting Jecht's showings in Dissidia (which IIRC are canon) as I do remember him blitzing Tidus darn fast and one-shotting him in the gut...

Zack beating Final Aeon form of Jecht without PIS is pretty irrational I would say, but let's thank God this is not the case here.

The same reason I mention PIS is protagonists beating antagonists that are logically tens or hundreds of times more ub3r. Cloud beating Sephiroth is an example. Let's leave this out of the discussion please, and discuss only the relevant people...once again Zack since Jecht is essentially nerfed.

Originally posted by FWahMaN
Since Jecht simply has "that cool sword he got" as of the OP than there's not much he has to put him above Zack. For the record I feel people are forgetting Jecht's showings in Dissidia (which IIRC are canon) as I do remember him blitzing Tidus darn fast and one-shotting him in the gut...

Maybe, but Tidus came right back and killed him. Unless you lost the fight... but you're not suppose to.

Originally posted by KingD19
Well, I see it like this. Jecht and Auron helped their mage friend(I think it was Tidus' mom) defeat Sin, and because Sin can never truly be defeated, Jecht sacrificed himself so they could have peace until he became Sin again.

Zack was in a large group that barely defeated Sephiroth if I remember correctly.

I can actually see Jecht taking this.

Zack didn't even beat Sephiroth. He got smoked like a baby and then Cloud stabbed Sephiroth in the back.

Originally posted by Dizzle
You never actually fight any form of Jecht besides the Final Aeon... I have no idea what he'd be like normally. Though Tidus would lose pretty easy to Zack, so in human forms, he takes it pretty easily.

That's true. We never get to see what Jecht can do. And Dissidia is hardly accurate representations of the characters abilities, cannon or not. They had to make everyone on the same level for a fighting game.

This really just comes down to who you like better. No real way of knowing.

Response to your first point Davey, this is also like the type of example I mentioned, the good guys beating the bad guys. Unless it is shown in a cutscene what exactly Tidus did to Jecht, since I believe they fight only in gameplay, we can't really say Tidus is overall more powerful, but we can say canon-wise that he has the ability to overcome Jecht. Since you can beat someone does not mean you're necessarily better overall.

Originally posted by FWahMaN
Response to your first point Davey, this is also like the type of example I mentioned, the good guys beating the bad guys. Unless it is shown in a cutscene what exactly Tidus did to Jecht, since I believe they fight only in gameplay, we can't really say Tidus is overall more powerful, but we can say canon-wise that he has the ability to overcome Jecht. Since you can beat someone does not mean you're necessarily better overall.

Its a pretty good indicator. A cutscene is not required to show that someone is stronger than another.

Take, hypothetically, a character who defeats another repeatedly all throughout the game, but never does so in a cutscene. Does that mean that we can't say that character is stronger? Of course not, the simple fact is he defeated his opponent every time. I'd say that makes him stronger. A cutscene is not necessarily required to understand when one character is stronger than the other.

...Usually in KMC at least, tier is not so highly regarded, but what characters have been shown to be able to do. I've not played Dissidia since I can't say shit, but Final Aeon form of Jecht would ko-smack any FF protagonist...without even noticing.

What can normal Jecht do exactly? He wasn't really shown doing anything in X and all of his move in dissidia stem from him being a badass so they aren't really moves. We do know that along with being enhanced Zack is also a talented fighter that took on an army of Shinra troop and even took out two Soldier 1st class officers.(Genesis fight counts right)

I think Zack would do well against Braska's Final Aeon: might not solo it but seeing as how he can break the damage limit and Hp limit too why wouldn't he do well.

1. Yeah I don't care about normal Jecht as I said, never played Dissidia and anything he's done in Dissidia beats what he did in X. We don't see what he did because his journey was already over and we see vague flashbacks of his journey with Braska. X was Tidus' story.

2. The fact you brought up HP is what'll keep me out of this thread (almost...) please do not bring up health and damage points. Wakka (lol your username is wakka 3x...) deals 10 times more damage than any FF7 or 8 character, if I recall, as those games deal a max of 9,999 DP. Wakka and any X character can deal up to 10 times that much and you should kind of already know by now...what would happen in a real fight should not depend on these silly numbers. They don't mean anything. Wakka throwing a ball at you would not deal more than maybe 40 damage in real life since that'll just make you go "oww". Mechanics can say Auron's sword swipe deals less damage than Wakka throwing a ball at you...we know this is impossible.

My username is supposed to be a reference to the sound pacman makes when he goes around a board. I detest Wakka. (ironic eh) but Zack kind of beat the crap out of anything that got in his way.(except Sephiroth) Even when he was getting shot by Shinra troop, he was still kicking ass.

I was just using numbers to even the odds but I guess that was a bad idea.

Originally posted by FWahMaN
1. Yeah I don't care about normal Jecht as I said, never played Dissidia and anything he's done in Dissidia beats what he did in X. We don't see what he did because his journey was already over and we see vague flashbacks of his journey with Braska. X was Tidus' story.

That's what I was saying. We don't know what Jecht is capable of. If there wasn't a line in the game that indicated such, we wouldn't even know he used a sword.

Dissidia can't show anything because it's not an accurate representation of the characters abilities. They had to make everyone around the same strength in order for it to work as a fighting game.

There is no right answer to this question I don't think. We can't know for sure.

Well since the problem is making Jecht an actual opponent, why don't we just use his Final Aeon phase instead. Since there is knowledge of his abilities in this form it would be an actual opponent Zack could fight. However who would win is unknown at the moment.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Well since the problem is making Jecht an actual opponent, why don't we just use his Final Aeon phase instead. Since there is knowledge of his abilities in this form it would be an actual opponent Zack could fight. However who would win is unknown at the moment.

Jecht in his final Aeon form would win, hands down. I'm not sure Cloud could beat him in that form, let alone Zack.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Jecht in his final Aeon form would win, hands down. I'm not sure Cloud could beat him in that form, let alone Zack.

But in his normal form he would lose, Zack is super-human, Jecht is not. He seems pretty slow also.

Zack's had experience fighting giant planet charged mosnters, giant robots, and although not canon fighting a planet goddess. I think Zack could put up a fight. Maybe am I just fanboying I don't know.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
But in his normal form he would lose, Zack is super-human, Jecht is not. He seems pretty slow also.

Maybe, maybe not. We still don't know what he's really like outside of Dissidia, and that's not very accurate.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Maybe, maybe not. We still don't know what he's really like outside of Dissidia, and that's not very accurate.

So you are not 100% sure if Zack can defeat Jecht but you are 100% sure that Cloud can beat Squall? Why? Because at how Squall fights in the intro of his game? I saw normal people from our world performing better than Squall in the intro... Duh, that's illogical. yawn

Zack still wins against Final Aeon Jecht. The guy manhandled Genesis Avatar, also a very powerful giant enemy that was once a good guy, and defeated him without showing any exertion afterward, he even defeated a newly restored Genesis not a minute later.

The fact of the matter is that Final Aeon type enemies are nothing new or difficult for the SOLDIER legend.

So my fanboyism is legit to some extent. As mentioned before, he was strong enough to take out his mentor and beat Genesis right after beating his avatar. Go Zack! I guess.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So you are not 100% sure if Zack can defeat Jecht but you are 100% sure that Cloud can beat Squall? Why? Because at how Squall fights in the intro of his game? I saw normal people from our world performing better than Squall in the intro... Duh, that's illogical. yawn

Squall has a whole game where we see what he is capable of. Jecht has NO examples of what he can do. THAT'S why we don't know. We never see him do anything. Ever. The same cannot be said of Squall, and I gave you plenty of reasons in the Could vs Squall debate as to why I think Cloud tops Squall.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Zack still wins against Final Aeon Jecht. The guy manhandled Genesis Avatar, also a very powerful giant enemy that was once a good guy, and defeated him without showing any exertion afterward, he even defeated a newly restored Genesis not a minute later.

The fact of the matter is that Final Aeon type enemies are nothing new or difficult for the SOLDIER legend.

Indeed? Do you think Zack could beat sin? I think people are giving Zack way too much credit. He's strong to be sure, but he's not a god.

Zack could just take Yuna with him, although it wouldn't be Zack vs Jecht anymore would it. Quick question. If Zack beat Angeal and Cloud has pure jenova cells(S-cell or what not), wouldn't that make Cloud above Zack?(in terms of power anyway)

Jecht never beat Sin, seeing as how it was alive and kicking for Tidus and pals. Beating the Final Aeon is not even close to synomous with being able to fight Sin. Zack would defeat Braska's Final Aeon Jecht handily but that doesn't mean he could defeat Sin itself.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Zack could just take Yuna with him, although it wouldn't be Zack vs Jecht anymore would it. Quick question. If Zack beat Angeal and Cloud has pure jenova cells(S-cell or what not), wouldn't that make Cloud above Zack?(in terms of power anyway)

Yes, absolutely. Cloud is obviously stronger than Zack, though many fans of Zack are loath to admit it. Easy example, Zack lost to Sephiroth, Cloud beat Sephiroth.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Jecht never beat Sin, seeing as how it was alive and kicking for Tidus and pals. Beating the Final Aeon is not even close to synomous with being able to fight Sin. Zack would defeat Braska's Final Aeon Jecht handily but that doesn't mean he could defeat Sin itself.


You don't remember the game? Sin was defeated, and then comes back after ten years reincarnated by the Aeon who defeated it. Jecht was Sin, because Jecht defeated Sin.

No, Jecht was the FInal Aeon, he functioned as the heart of Sin but he wasn't Sin itself. Tidus and pals would have been completely obliberated if they tried to battle Sin the same way they battled Braska's Final Aeon, they are not the same being. That's why Sin can destroy cities and use gigagraviton but Jecht has nothing even close to this level of power.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Squall has a whole game where we see what he is capable of. Jecht has NO examples of what he can do. THAT'S why we don't know. We never see him do anything. Ever. The same cannot be said of Squall, and I gave you plenty of reasons in the Could vs Squall debate as to why I think Cloud tops Squall.

Yeah sure... His intro... I could beat Squall if I had a sword there. We're off topic. Zack wins, hands down. And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him, Zack is dead so we can't compare Cloud with him either.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, Jecht was the FInal Aeon, he functioned as the heart of Sin but he wasn't Sin itself. Tidus and pals would have been completely obliberated if they tried to battle Sin the same way they battled Braska's Final Aeon, they are not the same being. That's why Sin can destroy cities and use gigagraviton but Jecht has nothing even close to this level of power.

Fascistcrusader, I'm sorry but you are simply incorrect. It states in the game that Jecht is sin. That's why he went to the dream world and brought Tidus over. That's why singing the song of the faith calms it, because Jecht liked that song.

Tell me. If sin never died, where did it go for ten years? Was it sleeping?

The final summoning consists of one of the guardians becoming the final aeon, defeating sin, and then being reborn as sin once that evil bug looking thing takes you over.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah sure... His intro... I could beat Squall if I had a sword there. We're off topic. Zack wins, hands down. And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him, Zack is dead so we can't compare Cloud with him either.

No, not his intro, I mean his whole game.

I mist disagree, I don't think Zack fighting all by himself would be able to defeat the final aeon anymore than I think Zack fighting all by himself would beat sin.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him,

Wait, hold on. How is this relevant at all? What does Cloud vs Sephiroth have to do with Zack vs Final Aeon Jecht?

Originally posted by TacDavey
I mist disagree, I don't think Zack fighting all by himself would be able to defeat the final aeon anymore than I think Zack fighting all by himself would beat sin.

I didn't know this was Final Aeon Vs. Zack, I thought this was Jecht Vs. Zack.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, absolutely. Cloud is obviously stronger than Zack, though many fans of Zack are loath to admit it. Easy example, Zack lost to Sephiroth, Cloud beat Sephiroth.

And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him, Zack is dead so we can't compare Cloud with him either.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I didn't know this was Final Aeon Vs. Zack, I thought this was Jecht Vs. Zack.

It was originally, but I think we concluded that we couldn't know because we never see what Jecht can actually do. Then we moved on to final aeon Jecht.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him, Zack is dead so we can't compare Cloud with him either.

Just because someone is dead doesn't mean we can't debate who would win.

If you defeat someone, it usually means you are stronger than them.

Jecht wins for being the manliest mother****er in Final Fantasy's entire ****ing existence!

None can defeat t3h Drowningball supastar!

Originally posted by TacDavey
It was originally, but I think we concluded that we couldn't know because we never see what Jecht can actually do.

Just because someone is dead doesn't mean we can't debate who would win.

If you defeat someone, it usually means you are stronger than them.

What the hell? You claimed that a super-human > normal human.

We can, but that's unfair. Obviously that Cloud is stronger than Zack NOW.

No in Cloud's case.

As stated before, I think Zack could take on the Final Aeon Jecht because he's had experience taking on colossal super powered mosters before.( I'm just repeating something to stay on topic)

When I asked, "Was Cloud more powerful than Zack?", I didn't necessarily mean Cloud could beat Zack.( We all know that's not true) However since Cloud was given a mako shower and pure Jenova cells at beyond lethal levels and still lived, wouldn't that make Cloud potentially stronger than Zack?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What the hell? You claimed that a super-human > normal human.

Yes, that's right. We still don't know what Jecht can do, so we can't make an accurate assessment.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
We can, but that's unfair. Obviously that Cloud is stronger than Zack NOW.

Now is what we care about.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No in Cloud's case.

Save it for the Squall vs Cloud debate.



Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
As stated before, I think Zack could take on the Final Aeon Jecht because he's had experience taking on colossal super powered mosters before.( I'm just repeating something to stay on topic)

Maybe, but since Jecht defeated Sin, that implies that he is stronger than sin, or at least pretty close. I don't think Zack could beat sin by himself. With a team, maybe, not alone.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
When I asked, "Was Cloud more powerful than Zack?", I didn't necessarily mean Cloud could beat Zack.( We all know that's not true)

Oh here we go... Of course Cloud beats Zack.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
However since Cloud was given a mako shower and pure Jenova cells at beyond lethal levels and still lived, wouldn't that make Cloud potentially stronger than Zack?

I think Zack went through the same thing, didn't he? It failed though because he already had the soldier enhancements. Don't know if Clouds enhancements are better or not.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Jecht never beat Sin, seeing as how it was alive and kicking for Tidus and pals. Beating the Final Aeon is not even close to synomous with being able to fight Sin. Zack would defeat Braska's Final Aeon Jecht handily but that doesn't mean he could defeat Sin itself. ....

Ok, first I don't like the a>b>c logic no offense intended, and according to X, Final Aeon beat Sin, so with that route Final Aeon is > Sin, and it seems you're saying Zack won't beat Sin (...I don't think the cast of X, VIII or VII as a group can, without some kind of PIS/CIS like summoning some being to do the work...have you seen Sin's showings in the X CGI's?) so then Zack beating the Final Aeon using this method is more unlikely to happen. Besides as I mentioned earlier showings should IMO be considered first and not who beat who. There can be circumstances we're not aware of and a lot of the fights aren't really shown and are just "played out" like the X crew beating the Final Aeon...in fact some PIS/CIS was involved. Hint: Tidus' voice...and this is actually confirmed because his voice lowers the Final Aeon's stats...

Also, Sin came back, if I recall correctly. Jecht became the Aeon then killed Sin, but there was no eternal calm dude...Sin comes about every 2 years.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, that's right. We still don't know what Jecht can do, so we can't make an accurate assessment.

I don't understand. We don't know about many characters from the series such like Vaan but you dare to say that Tidus wins because we don't know what Vaan can do, and now you don't know if Zack (a super-human) can beat Jecht a human who has been defeated by Tidus because we don't know what he can do...? Sorry, I don't quite understand you.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Save it for the Squall vs Cloud debate.

For what? Everyone knows that anyway.

Sin comes back because Sin and the FInal Aeon aren't synonymous. There is always a Final Aeon within Sin, but Sin itself exists apart from these beings. This is why Sin always returns and killing the Final Aeon only stops it temporarily.

Jecht as the FInal Aeon is not infinitely larger than humans like Sin, FA Jecht cannot use devastating attacks like Giga Graviton like Sin, FA Jecht doesn't have the durability of Sin, etc. Defeating the Final Aeon in battle is possible and was done by a group of warriors much weaker than Zack, defeating Sin in a straight fight is impossible unless you're someone with godlike levels of power, it can only be killed by destroying it's true center, Yu Yevon.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I don't understand. We don't know about many characters from the series such like Vaan but you dare to say that Tidus wins because we don't know what Vaan can do, and now you don't know if Zack (a super-human) can beat Jecht a human who has been defeated by Tidus because we don't know what he can do...? Sorry, I don't quite understand you.

I said, in the Vaan debate, that if we go SOLELY on what we know of him, he would loose. I never said he would loose because we don't know about him. We actually know more about Vaan than we do Jecht anyway.



Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Sin comes back because Sin and the FInal Aeon aren't synonymous. There is always a Final Aeon within Sin, but Sin itself exists apart from these beings. This is why Sin always returns and killing the Final Aeon only stops it temporarily.

Jecht as the FInal Aeon is not infinitely larger than humans like Sin, FA Jecht cannot use devastating attacks like Giga Graviton like Sin, FA Jecht doesn't have the durability of Sin, etc. Defeating the Final Aeon in battle is possible and was done by a group of warriors much weaker than Zack, defeating Sin in a straight fight is impossible unless you're someone with godlike levels of power, it can only be killed by destroying it's true center, Yu Yevon.

I'm sorry, you are just incorrect. Jecht is sin, they state it all throughout the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1chqaabx4o

Skip ahead in this video to 9:00, and that is only one example of where they say it. Further more, singing the song of the faith calms him because it is revealed that Jecht really liked that song.

Jecht is sin, you are going to have to deal with this.

Also, you basically take down sin by yourself before going into him.

No, champ, I'm afraid Jecht is the heart of Sin, not SIn itself. Hell, Jecht isn't even really it's heart, Yu Yevon is. Let me simplify this for you:

This is Jecht as the Final Aeon:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/9/9e/Braska%27s_Final_Aeon2.png

This is Sin:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/thumb/d/de/10sin-a.jpg/400px-10sin-a.jpg

Notice how Sin is a large whale like creature that existed long before Jecht came into existence. It also continued to exist after his defeat. Notice how Jecht resides within Sin as a part of it. Notice that Sin is controlling Jecht, not the other way around.

Jecht is not Sin, he is the Final Aeon within Sin.

Jecht can exert influence over Sin and does so throughout the course of the game, usually when the "Hymn of the Fayth" is playing.

For the most part Jecht is under the control of Sin's destructive nature, his breakthroughs are the exception, not the rule. He isn't Sin itself, he's a part of Sin, but fighting Jecht is not fighting the Sin as a whole. It would be like Godzilla having a sentient heart, fighting his heart inside him is not fighting Godzilla.

The only point I'm trying to make here is that Zack is able to easily defeat Braska's Final Aeon, and that that doesn't mean he could take down SIn in a one on one battle as Tac Davey so ludicrously suggested.

What the hell does that even have to do with this thread?

When I said Zack manhandles Jecht, Final Aeon form or no, Tac Davey was saying Zack couldn't beat Sin and people gave him too much credit, which is irrelevent as BFA and Sin are not synonymous.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, champ, I'm afraid Jecht is the heart of Sin, not SIn itself. Hell, Jecht isn't even really it's heart, Yu Yevon is. Let me simplify this for you:

This is Jecht as the Final Aeon:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/9/9e/Braska%27s_Final_Aeon2.png

This is Sin:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/thumb/d/de/10sin-a.jpg/400px-10sin-a.jpg

Notice how Sin is a large whale like creature that existed long before Jecht came into existence. It also continued to exist after his defeat. Notice how Jecht resides within Sin as a part of it. Notice that Sin is controlling Jecht, not the other way around.

Jecht is not Sin, he is the Final Aeon within Sin.

fascistcrusader, this is getting old. The line from the game is "My old man is sin." How can that be any more clear? They say it IN THE GAME that once the final aeon defeats sin IT IS REBORN AS SIN. This is all taken directly from the game, deal with it. I even gave you video evidence.

On top of that, the final Aeon has to defeat sin regardless, since that's what final aeons do. So even if I do accept your idea that Jecht is not sin, and I CERTAINLY do not, final Aeon Jecht is still the thing that beat sin.

Without a team, I don't think Zack stands a chance. That means that Zack could take on the whole FFX crew by himself, and I really doubt that. Zack is nothing more than a good soldier with a few bio enhancements. He's not a god people.

Tac, you're just being ridiculous now. Sin is much greater than any FA, FF X makes that extremely clear given that everytime someone kills the FA in it comes back.

The Final Aeon is much, much weaker than the whole of Sin, that's why Summoner's have no hope of defeating Sin externally and can only destroy the Final Aeon within. They have to go inside and defeat it's heart, because the real Sin is too much to handle.

You never played X did you?

The only way to defeat Sin, other than destroying Yu Yevon from the inside, is to summon the Final Aeon.

Because the FInal Aeon is it's heart, but it isn't Sin itself. I've played through FF X twice and it's very clear that the Final Aeon is incapable of the feats Sin is. Sin can wipe out cities, Braska's Final Aeon cannot. Sin can use Giga Graviton and level mountain ranges, Braska's FInal Aeon cannot. I could keep going with this list forever, but that is unecessary.

The fact of the matter is that Zack would stomp BFA like he stomped Genesis Avatar, as Jecht in BFA form doesn't have anywhere near the full power of Sin.

I get it! Zack can't kill the 1000 year old terror that is Sin. Funny how this thread shifted from Zack fighting Jecht to Zack fighting an unkillable whale-thing. Just asking but if a villian like Kuja or Kefka ever fought Sin, couldn't they just destroy Spira.(and by extention Sin)

But back on topic. Zack beats Jecht even in his Final Aeon phase. There both cool though.

Yes, someone with the level of power of Sephiroth, Kefka, Exdeath, etc could defeat Sin rather handily, but Zack just isn't at that godlike level of power.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Because the FInal Aeon is it's heart, but it isn't Sin itself. I've played through FF X twice and it's very clear that the Final Aeon is incapable of the feats Sin is. Sin can wipe out cities, Braska's Final Aeon cannot. Sin can use Giga Graviton and level mountain ranges, Braska's FInal Aeon cannot. I could keep going with this list forever, but that is unecessary.

The fact of the matter is that Zack would stomp BFA like he stomped Genesis Avatar, as Jecht in BFA form doesn't have anywhere near the full power of Sin.

I find it hard to believe you played FFX twice, because if you did, you wouldn't be making the claims you are making. Unless you just didn't pay attention.

The Final Aeon is sin. That's just how it is. Once the FA has DEFEATED SIN, it is reborn in ten years (I think) as sin.

The Final Aeon, aka Jecht, has to defeat sin for this to happen. That's what the FA is for!

Go play the game over again, or just watch the video I posted. Either one is enough to prove that Jecht is sin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ActCN1V3HVg&feature=related

Skip to 00:50. Yunalesca explains it. For any of you who are too lazy to actually go to the video, I have her quote right here:

"Sin is eternal. Every Aeon that defeats it becomes sin in it's place. And thus is sin reborn."

If you don't believe me, watch the video. It says it right there.

Just when I thought Zack was set, another piece of evidence is put in place to bar him from victory. Yu Yevon pretty much uses the Final Aeons as a console to control Sin and as building block to make a new one should someone use a Final Aeon to beat Sin's outer shell.

From this, Zack would beat Jecht in his Final Aeon form but wouldn't kill the unkillable whale thing because he wouldn't have enough power too breach it. Even if he did, Yu Yevon would be alive and well and probably make another Sin.( or so I've heard)

Tac, stop arguing semantics, you're only looking silly. Look at your own quote for god's sake, Sin is eternal, the Final Aeon's die quite easily. That is because Sin as an entity is seperate from them. When they die it is just remade using them as a core, but the Final Aeon doesn't have nearly the power of the whole of Sin. You're arguing that you're hand is not just a part of you, but that it is you. Jecht as the Final Aeon is not Sin proper, just it's metaphorical heart. Jecht in any form has nowhere near the power of Sin, all he did was defeat the last Final Aeon, not the whole of the creature.

For the last time, no Final Aeon has anything even close to Giga Graviton or Sin's other attacks. SIn and the FA aren't synonyms, that's why the penultimate boss of FF X is called Braska's Final Aeon rather than Sin. Zack shitstomps all over Braska's Final Aeon, he doesn't need the power to defeat the actual Sin because not even Tidus and pals combined had the power of all of the Machina used to try to stop Sin proper, and they defeated Jecht.

Since its already established for the most part that Zack beats Jecht maybe a Sephiroth vs Sin thread should be made so we can test this unkillable thing's power against other villians. Well since the Final Aeons in general can be replaced by others, I'm guessing Jecht wouldn't be that powerful to begin with.

Zack all the way....but i just say that because he is a way cooler character lol imo

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Tac, stop arguing semantics, you're only looking silly. Look at your own quote for god's sake, Sin is eternal, the Final Aeon's die quite easily. That is because Sin as an entity is seperate from them. When they die it is just remade using them as a core, but the Final Aeon doesn't have nearly the power of the whole of Sin. You're arguing that you're hand is not just a part of you, but that it is you. Jecht as the Final Aeon is not Sin proper, just it's metaphorical heart. Jecht in any form has nowhere near the power of Sin, all he did was defeat the last Final Aeon, not the whole of the creature.

For the last time, no Final Aeon has anything even close to Giga Graviton or Sin's other attacks. SIn and the FA aren't synonyms, that's why the penultimate boss of FF X is called Braska's Final Aeon rather than Sin. Zack shitstomps all over Braska's Final Aeon, he doesn't need the power to defeat the actual Sin because not even Tidus and pals combined had the power of all of the Machina used to try to stop Sin proper, and they defeated Jecht.

Okay, then why does the final Aeon defeat sin if it's not stronger than it?

It doesn't say the final Aeon becomes it's heart. You are just making that up. It says the final Aeon becomes sin.

This Aeon heart theory has no basis in fact, where as Yunalesca states plain as day that the Aeon becomes sin. How can you deny this?

You are just making up your own versions of the story with no evidence to back them up. Where are you getting this Aeon heart theory, if I may ask? Where in the game does it say this?

Before finding out what Jecht can do as Sin(or the Final Aeon) we have to first investigate how the Final Aeon exactly beats Sin. If a group of guardians could beat a Final Aeon, then Zack would have no problem beating it. From what I know, the Final Aeon that beats Sin becomes it instead however the Sin that everyone is familiar with is constructed out of the Final Aeon by Yu Yevon;kind of making the Final Aeon the controller of Sin without necessarily looking like a large whale creature.

However if the Final Aeon is Sin-and Zack can most likely beat the Final Aeon-then shouldn't that mean Zack should also be able to beat down the outer Sin as well. A>B>C logic is confusing me, forgive me if that explanation is unplausable.

The Final Aeon beats Sin by beating the former Final Aeon. Nowhere is it suggested that a Final Aeon has any chance against the actual Whale Creature, they just kill it's "heart" by killing the former FA, which is much weaker than Sin proper.

Use some common sense for god's sake, any character in FF X would be slaughtered by the real Sin whether it be by Giga Graviton or another powerful city busting attack, the Final Aeon doesn't have anywhere near the power of Sin proper, so Tidus and pals beat it. Jecht as BFA does not have the ability to destroy a city block, much less a mountain range.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
The Final Aeon beats Sin by beating the former Final Aeon. Nowhere is it suggested that a Final Aeon has any chance against the actual Whale Creature, they just kill it's "heart" by killing the former FA, which is much weaker than Sin proper.

That's never specified. Nor is it backed up. They fight sin in the calm lands, or whatever that place is. Not inside sin. The FFX gang going inside sin was the first time that had been done.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Use some common sense for god's sake, any character in FF X would be slaughtered by the real Sin whether it be by Giga Graviton or another powerful city busting attack, the Final Aeon doesn't have anywhere near the power of Sin proper, so Tidus and pals beat it. Jecht as BFA does not have the ability to destroy a city block, much less a mountain range.

You seem to be weighing heavily on the Giga Graviton attack. That one attack does not cancel out all the other evidence.

The FFX gang almost beat sin by themselves, if you remember. At least they wounded it pretty bad, even with it's Giga Graviton attack. So that one attack does not guarantee victory, and the evidence is overwhelmingly staked in my favor.

Your Aeon heart theory has nothing backing it up. Yunalesca states that the FA becomes sin and she also directly states that the FA must defeat sin for this to happen.

Funny how the argument of Jecht being or not being Sin as Braska's Final Aeon actually helps Zack even more. I think I can safely say that Zack is stronger then all the good guys in X. In that case, the fight can go as the following. If the Final Aeon is aseperate entity that just become the basis and controller of Sin, then Zack can just beat it like he beat the Genesis Avatar. If the Final Aeon is the entire creature Sin, then Zack would just WTF stomp Sin all together.

So whatever's wrong or right about the creation of Sin, Zack still wins. When the Final Aeon beats Sin, does it beat the outside and the previous Final Aeon or just the Final Aeon and let the outer Sin collapse on itself?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Funny how the argument of Jecht being or not being Sin as Braska's Final Aeon actually helps Zack even more. I think I can safely say that Zack is stronger then all the good guys in X. In that case, the fight can go as the following. If the Final Aeon is aseperate entity that just become the basis and controller of Sin, then Zack can just beat it like he beat the Genesis Avatar. If the Final Aeon is the entire creature Sin, then Zack would just WTF stomp Sin all together.

So whatever's wrong or right about the creation of Sin, Zack still wins. When the Final Aeon beats Sin, does it beat the outside and the previous Final Aeon or just the Final Aeon and let the outer Sin collapse on itself?

Really? You think Zack by himself could defeat sin? Where are you getting the idea that Zack is an all powerful god? He's nothing special at all, he's just some guy with some mako enhancements.

In no way ever could Zack defeat sin by himself. I'm not sure Sephiroth beats sin and Sephiroth smokes Zack like a tiny child. You guys are giving Zack WAY too much credit.

As for the last part of your quote, the previous final aeon would die with sin if you killed sin, since they are one in the same.

Hey...Zack beat the Genesis Avatar that was using the lifestream as a power boost so beating Sin can't be far from the truth.

Wait a minute, what is Zack fighting anyway? Is he fighting Sin as a whole or just the Final Aeon? If he fights Sin up front, then yes he gets stomped. I say that Zack wins based on a comparison between the Final Aeon fight and what Zack achieved during Crisis Core(don't judge me).

However if this were a Zack vs Sin thread, it would be closed immediately. Since the Final Aeon making Sin easy theory doesn't work, then what will? Apparently Jecht gets all of Sin's feats even though he isn't fought as the creature itself. I think I made my head hurt now.

Zack is nothing special? Even if this were true his feats make him exponentially more powerful than Tidus, who defeated Jecht in two different games.

Zack was the second most powerful member of SOLDIER, he defeated Genesis Avatar, comparable to Braska's Final Aeon, and bested the goddess of thee planet, Minerva, in combat. Sin is not as powerful as all of Gaia's spirit energy, and the avatar of the whole lifestream accepted Zack as a worthy opponent. Jecht is an ant before his might.

Well at least my argument is getting some kind of help(even if your not trying). However I'm still a little unsure as to count Minerva because you don't have to really complete that mission in order to beat the game; if it is canon though, that would put Zack above Sephiroth(which I'm certainly sure isn't true)

Ever since the Final Aeon Jecht was suggested its turned into Zack vs Sin instead of Zack vs Jecht. So what if Jecht is Sin since he's the Final Aeon? We should have him fight as the Final Aeon instead of giving him all of Sin's feats and then see who wins.

Zack can't kill the outer Sin(I doubt he could even penetrate it). We've got that for the most part. Besides if Tidus and co. could do it, then what's stopping Zack from following suit?

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Zack is nothing special? Even if this were true his feats make him exponentially more powerful than Tidus, who defeated Jecht in two different games.

He did? Final Aeon Jecht? By himself? I don't remember that. What games are you talking about?

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Zack was the second most powerful member of SOLDIER, he defeated Genesis Avatar, comparable to Braska's Final Aeon,

Where do you get that? Final Aeon Jecht must have beaten the sin before him, and I don't see Zack doing that. Not by himself.


Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Well at least my argument is getting some kind of help(even if your not trying). However I'm still a little unsure as to count Minerva because you don't have to really complete that mission in order to beat the game; if it is canon though, that would put Zack above Sephiroth(which I'm certainly sure isn't true)

That's a good point. Regardless of any feat you gave give to him from Crisis Core, the plain and simple fact of the matter is Zack can't beat Sephiroth. Either that goddess of the earth isn't that strong, or it's not cannon, or it's simply a contradiction. Either way, he's not that strong. Not strong enough to pretty much accomplish what it took an entire team to do by himself.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Besides if Tidus and co. could do it, then what's stopping Zack from following suit?

The fact that he's one man, not a whole team.

I can't believe this topic is still alive.

The Final Aeon have enough power to penetrate Sin's body and then defeat it. I've played the game and I remember that it is well stated by the characters.

We don't know if Genesis Avatar is as powerful as the Final Aeon, I don't think that Genesis Avatar would defeat the whole Sin, I truly do not.

In fact, Sin is truly powerful due of his size nothing more, but 'size' it doesn't mean power.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I can't believe this topic is still alive.

The Final Aeon have enough power to penetrate Sin's body and then defeat it. I've played the game and I remember that it is well stated by the characters.

We don't know if Genesis Avatar is as powerful as the Final Aeon, I don't think that Genesis Avatar would defeat the whole Sin, I truly do not.

In fact, Sin is truly powerful due of his size nothing more, but 'size' it doesn't mean power.

Well, sin is powerful for more reasons than he's big.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Zack is nothing special? Even if this were true his feats make him exponentially more powerful than Tidus, who defeated Jecht in two different games.

Zack was the second most powerful member of SOLDIER, he defeated Genesis Avatar, comparable to Braska's Final Aeon, and bested the goddess of thee planet, Minerva, in combat. Sin is not as powerful as all of Gaia's spirit energy, and the avatar of the whole lifestream accepted Zack as a worthy opponent. Jecht is an ant before his might.

2nd most? I'm sure its stated Sephiroth and Genesis are equals in combat abilities unless you gave both of them first place ermm

Sephiroth and Genesis were equals during the flashback scene and at the beginning of the game, but Sephiroth is constantly growing stronger according to Hojo in Before Crisis. That is why Zack loses to Sephiroth at Nibelheim but defeats not only a fully healed Genesis, but also Genesis when he was drawing power from the lifestream and fused with the goddess materia.

So Final Aeon wins, right? But I still think Zack can beat the normal Jecht.

No, because Zack is greater than anyone in FF X, so if they could take him Zack could do it better. Zack makes a living beating the Aeons of his universe, as well as incredibly powerful monsters, any form of Jecht is cake for him.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, because Zack is greater than anyone in FF X, so if they could take him Zack could do it better. Zack makes a living beating the Aeons of his universe, as well as incredibly powerful monsters, any form of Jecht is cake for him.

What makes you think Zack is better than everyone in the FFX universe? That's a bold claim. And even so, what makes you think he is better than all of them at the same time?

Again, you are giving Zack far too much credit. I'm beginning to think you are doing so simply because you are a fan.

Zack's super-soldier status would put him above the norm Final Fantasy X characters. In fact Auron would be the only match for Zack should someone make that comparission(can explain if needed).

Being able to breach Sin's outer skin doesn't really give away any endurance feat;it just means that Zack would get wtf pwned in one hit. So Zack could just hack away at it like the Genesis Avatar(sorry).

C'mon Zack isn't out of luck even if he loses this fight. Besides if Wakka, Rikku, and Kimahri could survive(they pretty much jump him according to canon) then Zack should have hope.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Zack's super-soldier status would put him above the norm Final Fantasy X characters. In fact Auron would be the only match for Zack should someone make that comparission(can explain if needed.

I must agree that Auron can be the only match for Zack. But Auron could easily have more experience in battle than Zack.
Seriously... Zack can't against all the Final Fantasy X team, that's a ridiculous claim, no matter how much "super-human" he is. He can't beat an entire team by himself.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Zack's super-soldier status would put him above the norm Final Fantasy X characters. In fact Auron would be the only match for Zack should someone make that comparission(can explain if needed).

Perhaps, but not far enough above that he would be able to kill them all by himself. I don't even think Cloud could pull that one off.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
C'mon Zack isn't out of luck even if he loses this fight. Besides if Wakka, Rikku, and Kimahri could survive(they pretty much jump him according to canon) then Zack should have hope.

Wait, Rikku, Wakka, and Kimahri jump who according to cannon?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I must agree that Auron can be the only match for Zack. But Auron could easily have more experience in battle than Zack.
Seriously... Zack can't against all the Final Fantasy X team, that's a ridiculous claim, no matter how much "super-human" he is. He can't beat an entire team by himself.

Exactly.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Wait, Rikku, Wakka, and Kimahri jump who according to cannon?

I'm sorry I didn't clarify that. I meant to say the whole party jumped the Final Aeon since they all get credit for fighting Sin; even though you only can use three characters at a time they all fight him right?

I'm arguing because I'm a fan? Lol, that's great coming from the guy who thinks that an alcoholic ex athlete could defeat one of the world's best super human military fighters. Just as John Elway couldn't win a fight against a Navy SEAL, Jecht has no hope against Zack.

But this is Final Aeon Jecht Vs. Zack now.

Even so Zack takes it. He's beaten many powerful beasts before including summons and he's defeated genesis Avatar without breaking a sweat. Besides, if the Final Aeon can't kill Tidus it's a joke for any SOLDIER.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I'm sorry I didn't clarify that. I meant to say the whole party jumped the Final Aeon since they all get credit for fighting Sin; even though you only can use three characters at a time they all fight him right?

Yeah, technically they are all there. Plus, you can switch out in battle.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
I'm arguing because I'm a fan? Lol, that's great coming from the guy who thinks that an alcoholic ex athlete could defeat one of the world's best super human military fighters. Just as John Elway couldn't win a fight against a Navy SEAL, Jecht has no hope against Zack.

I'm thinking you like Zack enough to support him even when he would obviously loose. I don't usually bring this up, but when you make a claim like Zack can defeat sin by himself, or the WHOLE FFX crew by himself, I start to wonder. You are giving Zack WAY too much credit. He's not that big a deal, at all.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Even so Zack takes it. He's beaten many powerful beasts before including summons and he's defeated genesis Avatar without breaking a sweat. Besides, if the Final Aeon can't kill Tidus it's a joke for any SOLDIER.

The final Aeon would slaughter Tidus, if he was by himself. He needed his team for that fight.

Tidus team doesn't have a single member that's as powerful as Zack, he'd one shot the team one member at a time without too much trouble. Speaking the truth is never giving too much trouble, Zack defeated 3 summoned beasts on his own, defeated two other elite SOLDIER 1sts, defeated a monster that was a SOLDIER 1st fused with a huge materia and drawing power from the lifestream, and took out all but 3 infantryman and 1 helicopter out of a batallion of 1,000 troops and 3 choppers. Not a single member of the FF X party could do any of those feats, much less all of them. Zack is better trained, superhuman, and ranks higher in every category.

This shit is still going? Meh.

Without some kind of PIS and/or urine involved...

Zack > Jecht

Zack < Jecht while not nerfed for Zack to win.

Zack can't beat Sephiroth by himself though...

Zack wasn't at his peak when he fought Sephiroth, and even then Sephiroth is more powerful than any form of Jecht so the point is moot.

What do you mean he wasn't at his peak?

Well Zack isn't > Sephiroth in any way besides being a good guy/hero maybe, so why that's being brought up I'm not really sure.....oh, we PISed ourselves again I see.

I mean when he fought Sephiroth it was before Hojo gave him the copy treatment, a procedure that gave Zack double the Jenova cells and far more mako energy than any other SOLDIER.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
I mean when he fought Sephiroth it was before Hojo gave him the copy treatment, a procedure that gave Zack double the Jenova cells and far more mako energy than any other SOLDIER.

No, the process failed on Zack because he already had been enhanced.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Tidus team doesn't have a single member that's as powerful as Zack, he'd one shot the team one member at a time without too much trouble. Speaking the truth is never giving too much trouble, Zack defeated 3 summoned beasts on his own, defeated two other elite SOLDIER 1sts, defeated a monster that was a SOLDIER 1st fused with a huge materia and drawing power from the lifestream, and took out all but 3 infantryman and 1 helicopter out of a batallion of 1,000 troops and 3 choppers. Not a single member of the FF X party could do any of those feats, much less all of them. Zack is better trained, superhuman, and ranks higher in every category.

Where do you get that? Tidus and team never TRIED to take out that many troops. They DID fight sin, however, and not only made it through, they gave him a pretty good beating.

You are vastly underestimating the FFX characters. While any one of them may not be able to defeat Zack one on one, they would be more than a match for him all at the same time.

The process didn't fail, it allowed him to go from being beaten by Sephiroth to being able to defeat not only a man who was his near equal, but that same man when he was being powered by the lifestream and the goddess materia. Zack was much stronger post nibelheim.

Given that Zack killed 998 unenhaced troops supported by helicopters, less than a dozen unenhanced members of a rag tag team wouldn't be much of a challenge for him.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Zack is nothing special? Even if this were true his feats make him exponentially more powerful than Tidus

I have no doubts that Zack would defeat Tidus, but if you're insinuating that Zack can beat Tidus and his team by himself you're clearly wrong.

The Final Aeon doesn't have the destructive power of Sin, but the Final Aeon is the only being in the Final Fantasy X universe that can defeat Sin, I think that's pretty much a fact.

What makes you think than Zack would beat Braska's Final Aeon by himself, If the Final Fantasy X team did it with efforts? That's like saying that Zack would beat the entire team by himself.

Zack would beat the whole team by himself. A SOLDIER is more powerful than any member of Tidus' team, and Zack killed hundreds of SOLDIER 2nds and 3rds through the course of Crisis Core, as well as nearly a thousand MPs in a single battle. How is a rag tag team of less than a dozen going to pose a challenge to him?

What do you mean by: 'rag tag team'? What's that?

Tidus' team aren't weak as those soldiers of yours, those soldiers wouldn't last seconds against Braska's Final Aeon.

1,000 heavily armed troops with 3 attack helicopters supporting them wouldn't exactly have an issue with BFA. Then there is SOLDIER, an elite force of nothing but superhuman warriors that would make quick work of it. Zack defeated both of these groups with no trouble at all.

Given that he is much faster than anyone on team FF X he'd simply decapitate them one by one before any of them could react.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
The process didn't fail, it allowed him to go from being beaten by Sephiroth to being able to defeat not only a man who was his near equal, but that same man when he was being powered by the lifestream and the goddess materia. Zack was much stronger post nibelheim.

No, Zack was the failed experiment everyone was talking about in FFVII, not Cloud. It didn't work on him because he had already been altered with his mako enhancements where as Cloud had not. It's all in the FFVII ultimania or whatever those things are called.


Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Given that Zack killed 998 unenhaced troops supported by helicopters, less than a dozen unenhanced members of a rag tag team wouldn't be much of a challenge for him.

Some soldiers and helicopters wouldn't stand a chance against the Final Aeon. Now your giving the SOLDIERS too much credit. They are like, the weakest enemies in FFVII. Every member of Clouds team takes them out no problem, they aren't a very big threat to anyone. Tidus and his team defeated the Final Aeon, thus Tidus and his team could beat those soldiers, thus Tidus and his team could beat Zack.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
1,000 heavily armed troops with 3 attack helicopters supporting them wouldn't exactly have an issue with BFA. Then there is SOLDIER, an elite force of nothing but superhuman warriors that would make quick work of it. Zack defeated both of these groups with no trouble at all.

Are you serious? You think those soldiers could take out the Final Aeon, arguably one of the strongest creatures the FFX world has to offer? The thing that beat sin, which decimates whole armies without breaking a sweat? Stop being ridiculous.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Given that he is much faster than anyone on team FF X he'd simply decapitate them one by one before any of them could react.

What? He doesn't have super speed. His physical abilities are higher than that of a normal person, that's it. The FFX Crew are NOT push-overs. They defeated sin, which would spank Zack like a tiny poodle fighting a grizzly bear.

Remember the huge ****ing gorge in the Calm Lands? That came from an older version of Sin fighting an older Final Aeon. And since, logically, every Final Aeon would be stronger than the one that came before it (after all, the newer Final Aeon > the newer Sin because that Sin is formed from the Final Aeon that beat it), Braska's Final Aeon should be capable of even greater feats of destruction.

No way Zack could take it solo.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Besides, if the Final Aeon can't kill Tidus it's a joke for any SOLDIER.

Except for the obvious plot point that Sin and then Braska's Final Aeon never fought Tidus using all his/its power because Jecht restrained himself...

But who needs plot details and facts.

Zack can't defeat the whole Final Fantasy X by himself, simple as that.

Zack was a failed experiment because he didn't become comatose, pay attention to FF VII's plot. All Hojo was looking for were mindless drones to test his Jenova reunion theory, he didn't bother to test his subjects strength.



That's great, except for the fact that there are no canon encounters with SOLDIERs in FF VII and the FF VII party is by feats much more powerful than the FF X party even if this weren't the case.



Yes, I am serious. The FF X armies are weaker and technologically inferior to FF VII's armies. Not to mention that the real SIn is never fought, just the previous FA.



Yes he does. He was surrounded by 50 infantryman firing automatic weapons at him simultaneously, and he dodged there gun fire like it was nothing. Zack makes Matrix characters look slow, the FF X team could not hit him or react to him.

Now please, stop being a fanboy for a minute and look at this objectively. The party of FF X is one of the weakest in the series, with only XII's being weaker for sure. They aren't really anything more than normal humans with some weapons skill and a bit of magic.

Zack, on the other hand, is equal to one of the strongest protagonists in the FF series, Cloud. He's slaughtered summons solo like they were nothing, taken out armies on his own, defeated two of the top three 1st class SOLDIERs, and defeated the goddess of the lifestream.

Not a single member of team X could replicate these feats, Zack would literally just overwhelm them with his superior, bullet timing speed and have their heads on the ground in under a minute. There wouldn't even be a fight.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
That's great, except for the fact that there are no canon encounters with SOLDIERs in FF VII and the FF VII party is by feats much more powerful than the FF X party even if this weren't the case.

No cannon encounters? You mean there were no story line related encounters? You fight them as normal enemies. Does that mean we can't say Cloud would beat one of those squirrel enemies because technically there was never a story segment to go along with it? The very fact that they are treated as normal enemies shows they are nothing special.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Yes, I am serious. The FF X armies are weaker and technologically inferior to FF VII's armies.

Where do you get that? FFX technology might be weak at present because of the fallout of machina after sin came, but it wasn't so back in the war.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Not to mention that the real SIn is never fought, just the previous FA.

Yeah, we've been over this. When Tidus and the rest go inside sin, that was the first time that had been done. There is nothing at any point in the game ever, that said that the FA goes inside sin to fight the previous FA, at least not any part that I have been able to find. If you can show me the part of the game that says that, then do so, but as far as I can see, Yunalesca says the FA defeats sin. She doesn't say the FA goes inside and defeats the other FA, she uses the words "sin" and "defeats".

And anyway, that's not even important. Tidus and the rest fought sin by themselves and won. They could have killed it right there but it would just come back, so they went inside. Zack can't beat sin.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Yes he does. He was surrounded by 50 infantryman firing automatic weapons at him simultaneously, and he dodged there gun fire like it was nothing. Zack makes Matrix characters look slow, the FF X team could not hit him or react to him.

I think FF developers reserve the right to be inconsistent here. I mean, FFX has enemy soldiers who have guns too, so by that logic, FFX characters can dodge bullets as well.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Now please, stop being a fanboy for a minute

Who are you accusing me of being a fanboy of? Jecht? Sin? Right, I'm a fanboy of a giant whale monster.

"Zack would smoke the whole FFX team. Zack beats the Final Aeon no problem. Before Zack, the Final Aeon is nothing! Zack would literally just overwhelm them with his superior, bullet timing speed and have their heads on the ground in under a minute. There wouldn't even be a fight."

Now THOSE seem like fanboy statements to me.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
The party of FF X is one of the weakest in the series,

Except their villain that they go up against was one of the strongest in the series. Now that I think about it. The FFX crew might be the strongest in the series.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
They aren't really anything more than normal humans with some weapons skill and a bit of magic.

They are obviously more than that, since they went toe to toe with sin, AND Jecht FA form and came out the victor.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Zack, on the other hand, is equal to one of the strongest protagonists in the FF series, Cloud. He's slaughtered summons solo like they were nothing, taken out armies on his own, defeated two of the top three 1st class SOLDIERs, and defeated the goddess of the lifestream.

Yeah, but he couldn't beat Sephiroth. So, either that godess of the lifestream wasn't all that powerful, or its just an inconsistency. Final Fantasy makes plenty of those.

In the end, Tidus's team beat sin. That's really all I have to say.

...........................................

r_I05XKa2Dw

Originally posted by Luminatus
...........................................

r_I05XKa2Dw

That one made me laugh.

You mus have not played FF VII or you really have something against it. We know from Advent Children that Barret is an incredible fighter, yet Cloud tells him in VII that if he ever encountered a single SOLDIER he would be dead. Cloud saw him fight in the reactor, he knew what Barret could do, yet he still said a SOLDIER 3rd was much better.

Look, this is getting silly. I understand you and Tac really like FFX, but Zack would destroy any of the main characters with one well placed slash. This means he would just speed blitz and decapitate them all in under a minute.

There really isn't anything more than that, Zack stomps here, only a X fanboy would think otherwise.

Barret is incredible slow, EVEN in Advent Children, he's a good fighter in what sense? He just shoots his Gun-Arm, that's all, obviously that some of those 3rd class SOLDIERS would win. Barret is one of the weakest characters from Final Fantasy VII, if not the weakest of all.

By the way thanks to the person who posted that Sin gameplay vid. I miss the ol' X battle theme.

Someone mentioned Barret being slow. Ditto. I haven't ran county races in years and I can still outrun the f00.

Also as support for the Zack side, although Sin can wipe out armies (actually eradicate them to the point you can't see them) and destroy regions of the world, it has to get weakened, and this is why the X cast beat it. It's vulnerable to the hymm, so don't think that ordinary ship blast that broke off its limb can honestly put it down. Watch the scene where the ub3r charged electricity beams from the tower couldn't to anything but just anger it some more. You need the hymm, if you're Tidus and friends, to take that thing down.

...Actually reading that now, I don't see how this is support for the Zack side at all. haermm

Actually what I meant was, this is one possible way the Final Aeon beat it.

So, this explains why the Final Aeon, who is Jecht, may not be as uber as Sin...but then again if I recall correctly, we are told Jecht "is" Sin...so...whatever...FF is confusing as it is.

So in a way, what I was saying is supporting Zack, and kind of...not. Someone said the Final Aeon and Sin aren't synonymous...which I understand...but I still remember hearing/reading from the game "Jecht IS Sin"...so ya.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader

Look, this is getting silly. I understand you and Tac really like FFX, but Zack would destroy any of the main characters with one well placed slash. This means he would just speed blitz and decapitate them all in under a minute.

Are you listening to yourself? "Zack would destroy any of the main characters with one well placed slash. Zack stomps here." And you are calling anyone but YOURSELF a fanboy?

I find it humorous that, now that every one of your points have been refuted, the only thing left you can turn to is calling your opponents fanboys. I think this debate is over.

Originally posted by FWahMaN
So in a way, what I was saying is supporting Zack, and kind of...not. Someone said the Final Aeon and Sin aren't synonymous...which I understand...but I still remember hearing/reading from the game "Jecht IS Sin"...so ya.

Oh Jecht is sin, we have more than adequately covered that topic, rest assured.

So... Zack > Jecht.
Braska's Final Aeon > Zack.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So... Zack > Jecht.
Braska's Final Aeon > Zack.

I think more accurately it's

Zack ??? Jecht.
Braska's Final Aeon > Zack.

I'm a staunch Zack supporter. However since its pretty much impossible to prove if he can actually win, I'll just have to try and nerf Jecht some. What if we used the Final Aeon that beat Sin rather then became Sin;or the basis of it since it appears as more of a sentient heart when you actually face it.

There you have it. Part of a last ditch effort to give Zack some hope and to understand the whole Jecht being Sin thing.(for me anyway)

Originally posted by TacDavey
I think more accurately it's

Zack ??? Jecht.
Braska's Final Aeon > Zack.

Zack can beat Tidus, I'd say Tidus CAN beat his father, thus Zack would beat Jecht, it is VERY likely.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Zack can beat Tidus, I'd say Tidus CAN beat his father, thus Zack would beat Jecht, it is VERY likely.

Hmmmmmm... Maybe. But I don't know why you think Tidus can beat Jecht. He never fought him by himself.

He did in Dissidia.

Erm...Zack pwns normal Jecht. Maybe it would be cool watching, maybe not. Zack would have to goof to lose.

Zack would need PIS to beat the Final Aeon ALA Cloud vs. Sephiroth style, if any of that makes sense...

Yes, unnerfed Jecht and the Final Aeon are synonymous. Unnerfed Jecht is also synonymous with Sin.

These are true even though the Final Aeon and Sin aren't the same. I don't see why he can't represent both, when the game says it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He did in Dissidia.

Yes..... Dissidia. I don't know how to take Dissidia. The characters are obviously on a separate level than they were in their original games. Obviously the developers had to make them all equal to make it a fighting game, so I'm not sure just how accurate it is.

If it IS cannon, it's inconsistent.

Originally posted by FWahMaN
Erm...Zack pwns normal Jecht. Maybe it would be cool watching, maybe not. Zack would have to goof to lose.

Zack would need PIS to beat the Final Aeon ALA Cloud vs. Sephiroth style, if any of that makes sense...

Yes, unnerfed Jecht and the Final Aeon are synonymous. Unnerfed Jecht is also synonymous with Sin.

These are true even though the Final Aeon and Sin aren't the same. I don't see why he can't represent both, when the game says it.

How do you know if we never get to see what human Jecht would do?

That's how it is on KMC. If we've not been shown something about a dude/dudette and he's up against a dude/dudette we've seen things from, then the person without showings has 0 showings. People go by what people have done. It's one of the best ways to debate.

We saw what he can do in Dissidia, although it may not be much. I don't have the game. I saw where he blitzed Tidus though.

So I meant by feats, Zack all the way. Zack would be like an ant to Sin, only less noticeable and useless damaging (without PIS or something like the Hymn to weaken Sin. This is what was used by the FFX team. I'm sure of it. In fact, ALL of Spira were singing that, and it weakened Sin).

The situation of Jecht being Sin is still confusing me a bit. The game states that they are essentially one and the same yet you fight them as two seperate things. So does the Final Aeon that is used to make Sin still contain the power that it had to beat the previous one? Along with that I don't really know any define durability feats of the Final Aeon that put it above the regular ones you summon(I'm sorry if that sounds stupid) which could give Zack some hope of damaging it.

I know Sin is an almighty unkillable thing, however if its insides are equally as strong then there would be no hope of the party actually beating Sin(aside from the hymn of the fayth). Zack also has experience fighting summons so that would help too right? I'm not sure...but I'll just stick to this for now.

Zack > Jecht.
Braska's Final Aeon > Zack.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
The situation of Jecht being Sin is still confusing me a bit. The game states that they are essentially one and the same yet you fight them as two seperate things. So does the Final Aeon that is used to make Sin still contain the power that it had to beat the previous one? Along with that I don't really know any define durability feats of the Final Aeon that put it above the regular ones you summon(I'm sorry if that sounds stupid) which could give Zack some hope of damaging it.

I know Sin is an almighty unkillable thing, however if its insides are equally as strong then there would be no hope of the party actually beating Sin(aside from the hymn of the fayth). Zack also has experience fighting summons so that would help too right? I'm not sure...but I'll just stick to this for now. Final Aeon is durable. His body can withstand fire, because it was coming out of him. Also he can insta-petrify you with nigh instantaneous eye beams ftw. 313

He would be like, Zack! Watch out...Sephiroth's behind..you

Zack: *turns around* "ZOMG WARE!?!?!"

FA: *petrifies*

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
The situation of Jecht being Sin is still confusing me a bit. The game states that they are essentially one and the same yet you fight them as two seperate things. So does the Final Aeon that is used to make Sin still contain the power that it had to beat the previous one? Along with that I don't really know any define durability feats of the Final Aeon that put it above the regular ones you summon(I'm sorry if that sounds stupid) which could give Zack some hope of damaging it.

The regular ones can't beat sin. What do you mean?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I know Sin is an almighty unkillable thing, however if its insides are equally as strong then there would be no hope of the party actually beating Sin(aside from the hymn of the fayth). Zack also has experience fighting summons so that would help too right? I'm not sure...but I'll just stick to this for now.

Not much. Again, we are talking about an entire team going up against this enemy. Zack is just one man.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The regular ones can't beat sin. What do you mean?

I was comparing the Final Aeon to the other Aeons you summon in the game. I was questioning whether or not the Final Aeon was more durable than the others like oh say...bahamut; not to other Final Aeons used before it. Since its used to be Sin, it obviously packs more power than them but would it exactly make it more durable? I don't know.

I would try to give Zack more feats but I'd be contradicting myself a bit.

The Final Aeon has a BIIIIIIIIIG ass sword to block with if his durability is not enough. If he swung at Zack's Buster Sword and Zack blocked it, Zack would be flying out of the ring causing a ring-out. 313

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I was comparing the Final Aeon to the other Aeons you summon in the game. I was questioning whether or not the Final Aeon was more durable than the others like oh say...bahamut; not to other Final Aeons used before it. Since its used to be Sin, it obviously packs more power than them but would it exactly make it more durable? I don't know.

I would try to give Zack more feats but I'd be contradicting myself a bit.

I would think so. The Final Aeon is all around more powerful than the other Aeons. It would need to be in order to beat sin.

Trust me. Zack looses in this fight. If Zack could beat the Final Aeon by himself, he should NOT have lost to a bunch of soldiers. He should have been able to take down armies.