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Please note: This is NOT a thread asking which one of these characters you like better.

This thread is to discuss which one was greater. I don't mean in terms of character or morals. I mean, which one of these two were stronger. Once upon a time, I would have immediately said Sidious because he was the master. But now, I truly wonder.

Nai Fohl and Darth Janus are two - among many - who believe that Count Dooku simply outclasses his master in all ways. I believe Dooku owns Sidious in lightsaber skills. I think that Dooku is the best duelist - per say - of the entire PT. But I don't believe he could beat Yoda, since he is inferior in the Force and speed.

Now. Some facts we all know include:

- Sidious was the master, whereas Dooku was the apprentice.
- Count Dooku is older than Sidious, and has more experience in dueling.
- Sidious is quoted on the Star Wars official site as being "the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times."
- Count Dooku is quoted on the Star Wars official site as being "one of the most revered Jedi in the Order" (I think - I might have gotten that confused with Wikipedia, but he does get complimented).
- Sidious seems to have a superior knowledge of the Force - at least of the Sith ways - as he is able to perform feats that Dooku has not done. Such as, Sidious can cloud the minds of the Jedi masters and the entire order.
- Count Dooku beat Mace Windu before TPM - and Windu defeated Darth Sidious.

These are just some of the facts. In my personal opinion, it goes like this. This is a list of Count Dooku's advantages over his master.

Count Dooku:
----------------
Superior dueling ability
Superior dueling experience
Superior dueling tactics
Superior dueling efficiency

Darth Sidious:
----------------
Superior Force connection
Superior Force knowledge
Superior Force mastery
Superior Raw power

Tell me what you think. And try not to let favoritisms - between Sidious or Dooku - interfere with your decisions. I might not like Revan, but he would own Dooku or Sidious in a fight - and I can admit that.

So...um, tell me what ya think.

Dooku pwns shizzle, dawg.

Yeah. Just for the sake of ruining what is already a ridiculous thread, I conclude that Saruman wins.

Dooku? Pah! You're joking me.

Why the hell would anyone bow to a Master who is less powerful than thou? Dooku would have revealed Palpatine's plans and used them as his own if he had been so high and mighty. No, Palpatine was far better than him.

This is where the 'Palps faked with Mace' argument comes in, but I won't indulge in another one of those silly arguments. My views: Palps faked it. Deal with my views, you can't change 'em.

Dooku might have been a better swordsman than Mace Windu, but not better than Master Yoda. He ran from the fight with his former mentor, if you recall, for whatever reasons you deem necessary (except 'he sensed clones coming,' that's bull). Palpatine disarmed Yoda and then flung him away, though he himself was flung too, but then again, Yoda and Palps are pretty equal.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Dooku? Pah! You're joking me.

Why the hell would anyone bow to a Master who is less powerful than thou? Dooku would have revealed Palpatine's plans and used them as his own if he had been so high and mighty. No, Palpatine was far better than him.

This is where the 'Palps faked with Mace' argument comes in, but I won't indulge in another one of those silly arguments. My views: Palps faked it. Deal with my views, you can't change 'em.

Dooku might have been a better swordsman than Mace Windu, but not better than Master Yoda. He ran from the fight with his former mentor, if you recall, for whatever reasons you deem necessary (except 'he sensed clones coming,' that's bull). Palpatine disarmed Yoda and then flung him away, though he himself was flung too, but then again, Yoda and Palps are pretty equal.


Palpatine tried to run before they even fought. At least Dooku fled after, carrying the Death Star plans on him. I am sure he wanted the Jedi to figure out Sidious' plans.

If Yoda was better than Dooku, Dooku would have died. If Sidious was better than Yoda, Yoda would have died.

"Anything can happen on the battlefield"

Yes Dooku is powerful, but i think his master is far more superior, his power is uncanny sure dooku has great duelings skills but sidious is far stronger.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
- Sidious was the master, whereas Dooku was the apprentice.


How often do I have to explain that ? Read it again (you can do that too, Rex):

Dooku couldn't take Sidious position at the point they were in at the moments because of simple facts:
- Dooku didn't have Sidious political contacts
- Dooku was known to be a force user therefore he couldn't have worked the way Sidious did
- Dooku didn't have the time to take Sidious out and than continue what his master did because he was more than 80 years old, Sidious was in an public position that Dooku couldn't have taken and if he would have ever tried to do so this would have had to be done before AotC - before the Jedi knew that he "switched sides".



True.



Did anyone say that Dooku is the greater Sith ?



Seems to be true...



This is a stupid argument again. How should Dooku have done that ? The Jedi knew that he was a force user. What should he have said: "Oh...hello master Yoda. I lost my connection to the force somehow. Ups !" ? At least you have no proof that Dooku couldn't have done that.



Think about it...



The point is that we have proof for Dooku being superior in the points you listed where we have no proof of the points you say that Sidious is superior. Therefore Dooku will always defeat Sidious. Or just to make it easier for you:

Maybe Sidious is the superior force user but he can't do nothing with the force to take Dooku out (as Dooku can deflect force lightning) so a confrontration between them would end with a lightsaber duel which means that Dooku would win because he's superior to Sidious in lightsaber combat. Got it know ? I hope so...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Read it again (you can do that too, Rex):

Hey, whatever gets them to shut up, right?

But sidious's force lightning is superior, yoda almost didn't block it. Lightning would kill dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Nhilus
But sidious's force lightning is superior, yoda almost didn't block it. Lightning would kill dooku.

The same lightning Sidious used more than 30 seconds against Luke without killing him ? I don't think so...

Originally posted by Sorgo
If Yoda was better than Dooku, Dooku would have died. If Sidious was better than Yoda, Yoda would have died.

That's some bad logic right there. I mean, Dooku IS better than Obi-wan, yet Obi-wan does not die whenever they fight. You don't need to kill the other opponent to prove you're better. Another example: Darth Maul was better than Obi-wan at the time of their duel, yet Obi-wan killed Maul.

Originally posted by SnakeEyes
That's some bad logic right there. I mean, Dooku IS better than Obi-wan, yet Obi-wan does not die whenever they fight. You don't need to kill the other opponent to prove you're better. Another example: Darth Maul was better than Obi-wan at the time of their duel, yet Obi-wan killed Maul.

SnakeEyes has you here Sorgo.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The same lightning Sidious used more than 30 seconds against Luke without killing him ? I don't think so...

Although I agree Dooku is better then Sidious this argument just doesn't make any sense. It is clear that Palpatine didn't go all out on Luke, he wanted to torture him before the kill.

On the post you quoted...

What are they going to do throw lightning at lightning, hardly Dooku would block it with his lightsaber. Sidious would never take him down using the force. He's not that much more powerful with the force.

It's a f*ckin movie, the reasoning behind these scenes are three years apart in the studio. I'm pretty sure the writers just made the characters do what they did for reasons best fitting them at the time.

Dooku was a new character we don't know to much about. They couldn't have him running away from Yoda at first sight, he'd look weak, and AOTC wouldn't do as good in the box office. That's why he appeared worse off in ROTS.

Palpatine we all new would be Emperor, we knew he'd win. They had to downplay his character a bit in his fight with Yoda.

Originally posted by SnakeEyes
That's some bad logic right there. I mean, Dooku IS better than Obi-wan, yet Obi-wan does not die whenever they fight. You don't need to kill the other opponent to prove you're better. Another example: Darth Maul was better than Obi-wan at the time of their duel, yet Obi-wan killed Maul.


I have bad logic? If Darth Maul was better, he would have killed Obi Wan. If Darth Maul didn't see Obi Wan fly into the air and go behind him, then he cannot be that good, now can he?

Obi Wan and Anakin were on par at the Mustafar fight. Obi Wan never won the fight because Vader kills Obi Wan later on. Unless someone dies, you have not won, you are just better.

saruman is the bomb sids is a pruned plum

Originally posted by Captain REX
Dooku? Pah! You're joking me.

Why the hell would anyone bow to a Master who is less powerful than thou? Dooku would have revealed Palpatine's plans and used them as his own if he had been so high and mighty. No, Palpatine was far better than him.

This is where the 'Palps faked with Mace' argument comes in, but I won't indulge in another one of those silly arguments. My views: Palps faked it. Deal with my views, you can't change 'em.

Dooku might have been a better swordsman than Mace Windu, but not better than Master Yoda. He ran from the fight with his former mentor, if you recall, for whatever reasons you deem necessary (except 'he sensed clones coming,' that's bull). Palpatine disarmed Yoda and then flung him away, though he himself was flung too, but then again, Yoda and Palps are pretty equal.


I like this interpretation. Except I think Mace really did beat Palpatine because Palpatine underestimated him. Sidious really gets no praise around here.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The same lightning Sidious used more than 30 seconds against Luke without killing him ? I don't think so...

Yeah, I'd like to point out something that might testify to Dooku's Force prowess.

In AOTC, he used exclusively one handed lightning. He was able to stalemate Yoda from a decent range away. He then resorted to lightsaber combat. (Now just a personal note, it doesn't seem quote like the heated battle between these two as say, Yoda and Sidious. Also keep in mind that most of Yoda versus Sidious was CGI or a stuntman in a mask)

Sidious, using two handed lightning at point blank range, was defeated(!) by Yoda. And yes, I say defeated because Yoda was at the disadvantage, on the edge of the pod and was leaning backwards before he reversed the flow of the energy and the resulting blast blew them both away. The look on Sidious' face (Like "OMG... u fekkin n00b!" was not one of victory. Sidious merely one because Yoda's lightsaber was gone and Yoda couldn't find something to grab on to when he fell.

So how is it that Sidious is "obviously superior" in Force powers when he was obviously overpowered by Yoda, whereas Dooku never was? The only thing you have to grab on are unsupported quotes from wherever.

It wasn't that Dooku stalemated Yoda it was that Yoda took everything Dooku threw at him and deflected it.

Dooku shot him with lightning and tried to crush him, Yoda blocked it all but never attacked Dooku with the force, he just reflected Dooku's attacks.

Yoda and Dooku didn't stalemate, Yoda just wasn't going to attack with the force. Yoda then continued to best Dooku in lightsaber combat, Dooku knowing he couldn't beat Yoda ran, and I think Sidious could beat Dooku in lightsaber combat, Dooku just fights more gracefully, whereas Sidious fights to win as quickly as possible. Top lightsaber combatants of the PT Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace, and Anakin I think would be next in line.

Originally posted by Apex
It wasn't that Dooku stalemated Yoda it was that Yoda took everything Dooku threw at him and deflected it.

Dooku shot him with lightning and tried to crush him, Yoda blocked it all but never attacked Dooku with the force, he just reflected Dooku's attacks.

Yoda and Dooku didn't stalemate, Yoda just wasn't going to attack with the force. Yoda then continued to best Dooku in lightsaber combat, Dooku knowing he couldn't beat Yoda ran, and I think Sidious could beat Dooku in lightsaber combat, Dooku just fights more gracefully, whereas Sidious fights to win as quickly as possible. Top lightsaber combatants of the PT Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace, and Anakin I think would be next in line.

When it comes to the Force, Dooku stalemated Yoda, not Yoda overcame Dooku's force lightning and reflected it back enough to even budge the dark lord. Yes, Yoda didn't use any aggressive techniques. That is true. But he didn't gain any ground during the Force duelling, and he didn't gain any advantage. But against Sidious, he actually turned things against Sidious, and from quite a disadvantage, too. You must see that much.

And to say Yoda bested Dooku in saber combat is an opinion at best, and unsupported opinion at worst. There was no give on either side, and Dooku DID run, but with the clones assailing the planet he had other priorities. Obviously when the battle went on with no clear sign of a victory Dooku thought he couldn't waste his time when he had the Death Star plans in his pocket, and he ran.

And the last part is your opinion. Fair enough. You've never given me a reason to deny you even that, Apex. I disagree, but for reasons that have been gone over many many times.

Janus, I'm too tired to argue with you. I'm also sick and tired of all the namecalling and sadistic bashing you, Illustrious, and Nai give me. You, who complain about how slow the Moderators are for punishing rule breakers - and then go around and break one yourself. You're becoming a hypocrite. And that sickens me.

This is a post from Darth Faunus. He puts both Sidious and Dooku in their place. He has NO evident bias (even though he does admit he likes Dooku better). Look at this. And maybe the truth will ring loud and clear about your OWN attitudes - as well as mine.

-------------

Posted by Darth Faunus:

I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.

Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.

Political Manipulation and the Ilk

This came up in many of the arguments, and however unrelated to a duel in-and-of itself, the debate upon which it was started should be concluded.

Sidious needs no introduction, but I'll give one anyway.

He manipulated the entire Jedi Order. Cool. They'd been through a millenium of relative peace, one without the constant Sith threat. Naturally, they were unprepared for such an event. However, that does not take the steam out of his accomplishments. He DID sneak past such Jedi as Yoda, Mace Windu, among others, keeping himself undetected as a Sith Lord for more than a decade, up until the point when he revealed his secret himself. He also manipulated the entire Republic/Imperial Senate into following him in his every course of action. Now, it was a time of war, but he was remarkably successful nonetheless.

Dooku was a political idealist, and a shrewd man in his own right. He saw the coming darkness, the corruption. He saw the signs of war, of chaos, when the Jedi Council in all their wisdom could not. He alone among all the Jedi discovered the presence of the Sith, and ferreted out Sidious himself. The only reasons in my mind that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious was:

1) To make his dream of a stable, controlled, uncorrupted Galactic government true and solid.

2) After the above was established, he sought to learn the ways of the Sith, who, in his mind, had the right idea.

Now, I'm not really in my mental peak here, so I can't exactly bring up too many other supportive facts for Dooku. I'm positive that there are a couple of others, but I'm sure Janus could put in some of these.

Now, the important things. . .

Dueling Capability

The superior here is somewhat apparent. But what appalls me is the utter disregard for Sidious' skill in itself. Some of you rate Sidious' saber skills so low it's ridiculous.

People, he may not be superior to Dooku, or Yoda, or Mace, for that matter, but he in no way is a poor duelist. He killed three Council-level Jedi Masters in under ten seconds. And nobody say that they weren't ready, that's bull. They were the ones standing there, sabers ignited, ready to bring in the "Chancellor", who they now knew as Darth Sidious, through means of force, if necessary. They may have underestimated him, but no, they weren't completely unprepared.

Now, for the people who think Mace could defeat Sidious; not rwally. Possible? hell yeah, it happened. Likely? Meh. If you want to use that logic, then Sidious WOULD defeat Yoda. Vader WOULD defeat Luke, and vice-versa. Anakin WOULD defeat Dooku. The list goes on and on. . .

Mace won because Sidious, in a completely uncharacteristic turn, underestimated Mace. he believed that he could defeat him as easily as the others. How wrong he was. now, it was Windu's skill that brought him out of the duel as a victor. I will NEVER debate against Mace's skill. Ever. But to say that he would, without a doubt, defeat Sidious, is just stupidity. But, back on topic now.

I personally believe that Dooku is the superior duelist. but not by the ridiculously huge margins that some here imply.

Force Power/Mastery

This is also rather close. In terms of raw power they are probably pretty close. Dooku was, afterall, considered to contain a vast amount of potential. Both Yoda and Mace considered him a terrible loss to the Order. And Sidious is, well, Sidious, the Emperor, Dark Lord, etc., etc. Whatever.

As for mastery, I'd give this to Sidious, but not by anything much. He'd probably studided Sith lore and been under the apprenticeship of Lord Plaguies for the majority of his life, sixty-five years. Now, Dooku was a Jedi for seven decades, along with thirteen years of Sith practice. So he had a fair amount of practice.

Now, I don't know for sure who'd come out on top. I can only make an educated estimate, which at the time is not something that I can give. I'll take Illustrious' take on this.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Janus, I'm too tired to argue with you. I'm also sick and tired of all the namecalling and sadistic bashing you, Illustrious, and Nai give me. You, who complain about how slow the Moderators are for punishing rule breakers - and then go around and break one yourself. You're becoming a hypocrite. And that sickens me.

This is a post from Darth Faunus. He puts both Sidious and Dooku in their place. He has NO evident bias (even though he does admit he likes Dooku better). Look at this. And maybe the truth will ring loud and clear about your OWN attitudes - as well as mine.

-------------

Posted by Darth Faunus:

I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.

Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.

Political Manipulation and the Ilk

This came up in many of the arguments, and however unrelated to a duel in-and-of itself, the debate upon which it was started should be concluded.

Sidious needs no introduction, but I'll give one anyway.

He manipulated the entire Jedi Order. Cool. They'd been through a millenium of relative peace, one without the constant Sith threat. Naturally, they were unprepared for such an event. However, that does not take the steam out of his accomplishments. He DID sneak past such Jedi as Yoda, Mace Windu, among others, keeping himself undetected as a Sith Lord for more than a decade, up until the point when he revealed his secret himself. He also manipulated the entire Republic/Imperial Senate into following him in his every course of action. Now, it was a time of war, but he was remarkably successful nonetheless.

Dooku was a political idealist, and a shrewd man in his own right. He saw the coming darkness, the corruption. He saw the signs of war, of chaos, when the Jedi Council in all their wisdom could not. He alone among all the Jedi discovered the presence of the Sith, and ferreted out Sidious himself. The only reasons in my mind that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious was:

1) To make his dream of a stable, controlled, uncorrupted Galactic government true and solid.

2) After the above was established, he sought to learn the ways of the Sith, who, in his mind, had the right idea.

Now, I'm not really in my mental peak here, so I can't exactly bring up too many other supportive facts for Dooku. I'm positive that there are a couple of others, but I'm sure Janus could put in some of these.

Now, the important things. . .

Dueling Capability

The superior here is somewhat apparent. But what appalls me is the utter disregard for Sidious' skill in itself. Some of you rate Sidious' saber skills so low it's ridiculous.

People, he may not be superior to Dooku, or Yoda, or Mace, for that matter, but he in no way is a poor duelist. He killed three Council-level Jedi Masters in under ten seconds. And nobody say that they weren't ready, that's bull. They were the ones standing there, sabers ignited, ready to bring in the "Chancellor", who they now knew as Darth Sidious, through means of force, if necessary. They may have underestimated him, but no, they weren't completely unprepared.

Now, for the people who think Mace could defeat Sidious; not rwally. Possible? hell yeah, it happened. Likely? Meh. If you want to use that logic, then Sidious WOULD defeat Yoda. Vader WOULD defeat Luke, and vice-versa. Anakin WOULD defeat Dooku. The list goes on and on. . .

Mace won because Sidious, in a completely uncharacteristic turn, underestimated Mace. he believed that he could defeat him as easily as the others. How wrong he was. now, it was Windu's skill that brought him out of the duel as a victor. I will NEVER debate against Mace's skill. Ever. But to say that he would, without a doubt, defeat Sidious, is just stupidity. But, back on topic now.

I personally believe that Dooku is the superior duelist. but not by the ridiculously huge margins that some here imply.

Force Power/Mastery

This is also rather close. In terms of raw power they are probably pretty close. Dooku was, afterall, considered to contain a vast amount of potential. Both Yoda and Mace considered him a terrible loss to the Order. And Sidious is, well, Sidious, the Emperor, Dark Lord, etc., etc. Whatever.

As for mastery, I'd give this to Sidious, but not by anything much. He'd probably studided Sith lore and been under the apprenticeship of Lord Plaguies for the majority of his life, sixty-five years. Now, Dooku was a Jedi for seven decades, along with thirteen years of Sith practice. So he had a fair amount of practice.

Now, I don't know for sure who'd come out on top. I can only make an educated estimate, which at the time is not something that I can give. I'll take Illustrious' take on this.

Whoa, you have some problems there, buddy. I haven't called you any names last time I checked. I didn't even address you in this entire thread. And if I am "sadistically" bashing you (Which isn't the case) then perhaps you should seek counseling and not come to KMC or ignore my posts.

Jeez, no need to get all victimized over a debate, man.

You call me a fanboy who possesses no knowledge of anything outside Sidious. Really, Janus. If I need to get the exact words, I will. So don't act so ridiculous. You know what you did, you know you were wrong, and it was hypocritical. But the main point is Faunus's post, which you amazingly overlooked - considering it was 3/4s of that entire address.

So. Read it and enjoy. And even he states you're going into bias. So it's not JUST me. Deal with the fact that not even you are immune to bias, Janus.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
You call me a fanboy who possesses no knowledge of anything outside Sidious. Really, Janus. If I need to get the exact words, I will. So don't act so ridiculous. You know what you did, you know you were wrong, and it was hypocritical. But the main point is Faunus's post, which you amazingly overlooked - considering it was 3/4s of that entire address.

So. Read it and enjoy. And even he states you're going into bias. So it's not JUST me. Deal with the fact that not even you are immune to bias, Janus.

No, I already read it earlier, thanks. And if Faunus was so worried about my bias, he would not have defered to me on facts, would he?

And the point remains that you are only here to argue for Anakin and Sidious 99% of the time and it almost always involves you debating in circles with flimsy logic and you actually DID start the name calling even with Nai!

And if -God forbid- Faunus were to come back and accuse me of bias. Fine, whatever. That does not automatically negate everything I've said about you and your approach that was true. You are antagonistic, terrible to debate with, and your bias is actually your sole reasoning foundation.

We make fun of poor logic, and if you produce poor logic consistently enough, you'll simply be marked by the populace as a fanboy. One who can not reconcile that his character is not as high up as he would like.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
You call me a fanboy who possesses no knowledge of anything outside Sidious. Really, Janus. If I need to get the exact words, I will. So don't act so ridiculous. You know what you did, you know you were wrong, and it was hypocritical. But the main point is Faunus's post, which you amazingly overlooked - considering it was 3/4s of that entire address.

So. Read it and enjoy. And even he states you're going into bias. So it's not JUST me. Deal with the fact that not even you are immune to bias, Janus.


You're a Whiner. When i first came here, i got my ass ragged on and i didn't whine about it like a schoolgirl with a scrapped knee. Go home, son.

Palpatine is the Master, Dooku is the apprentice.
Nuff said.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
No, I already read it earlier, thanks. And if Faunus was so worried about my bias, he would not have defered to me on facts, would he?

And the point remains that you are only here to argue for Anakin and Sidious 99% of the time and it almost always involves you debating in circles with flimsy logic and you actually DID start the name calling even with Nai!

And if -God forbid- Faunus were to come back and accuse me of bias. Fine, whatever. That does not automatically negate everything I've said about you and your approach that was true. You are antagonistic, terrible to debate with, and your bias is actually your sole reasoning foundation.

1. Faunus did not defend you per say. You and Nai - moreso him - are insinuating Sidious is a horrible duelist and he likes to catch people off guard. Notice in his declarations regarding the Jedi Masters, they were prepared to battle Darth Sidious - but they failed. They were not taken by surprise, as you both said. So there, he did not defend you. He also didn't defend you by stating that Sidious probably has the superior Force mastery and that his dueling skills - while not on par with Dooku's - are not sub-par by any means.

2. Nai started it with me, Janus. The words goddamn fanboy ring any bell? I thought so. No, he started it. So don't try to pin the blame on me. It won't quite work.

3. As for the Anakin and Sidious comment, I suggest you return to school and learn your percentages again. I do not defend Anakin that often. Like you, I defend those whom I think would win. You go to Sidious threads 99 percent to bash him. You've only defended him once I recall. I told you, originally, Sidious would lose this fight. I continued to say that. But when you all started bashing him - notice I still continued the original perception of his inevitable defeat - I defended him stating that he would not be defeated as easily as you say. And then the comments about Dooku being able to take Sidious by himself were put into play, thereupon - I defended Sidious without insulting Count Dooku and also managing to state that Count Dooku is beyond Sidious in saber skills and so forth.

If you will kindly review my posts - and then yours - you will notice I manage to "defend" both parties without insulting or belittling the other. Notice how you do not, and like to believe Count Dooku simply outclasses his master.

Logically, I am in the clear. Review my posts again. You will not find the obvious bias and dislike for Sidious OR Count Dooku on my posts, where you can find one or the other on yours.

Thanks.

So. Sorgo, Illustrious, Nai, and Janus. I'm obviously not changing your opinion - nor are you changing mine. That wasn't my goal, and I doubt it was yours. You all four outclass me as debaters and point-makers, that much is obvious. Well, Illustrious, Nai, and Janus do. I don't know about Sorgo. He tends to just rant and fume and abuse the rules to his heart's content, but anyway.

I'm not leaving. And you insulting me just breaks the rules. And you might get caught for it one day. So. Stop doing it. That's all I ask. And in return, you'll get no comments from me. Faunus even hinted that he had seen all of this bias. If I may use a statement...

---------------------
Posted by Darth Faunus:

I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.

Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.

----------------------

Read the second paragraph. Yes, gentlemen. Even YOU all have your personal bias. And it tends to show into your statements even as it does with my own. Read Faunus's statements. He doesn't glorify Sidious. Nor does he glorify Dooku. He simply states the closest thing to the truth in this entire debate. Yes. I believe Faunus has a better opinion than you or myself. And if you will look, he even prefers Dooku! And still he says you are taking it out of context and it's getting out of hand.

So. Face the truth and see that maybe it's not just me who has the "problem" or the "bias". Maybe you have it too. Think about it.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
So. Sorgo, Illustrious, Nai, and Janus. I'm obviously not changing your opinion - nor are you changing mine. That wasn't my goal, and I doubt it was yours. You all four outclass me as debaters and point-makers, that much is obvious. Well, Illustrious, Nai, and Janus do. I don't know about Sorgo. He tends to just rant and fume and abuse the rules to his heart's content, but anyway.

I'm not leaving. And you insulting me just breaks the rules. And you might get caught for it one day. So. Stop doing it. That's all I ask. And in return, you'll get no comments from me. Faunus even hinted that he had seen all of this bias. If I may use a statement...

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Posted by Darth Faunus:

I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.

Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.

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Read the second paragraph. Yes, gentlemen. Even YOU all have your personal bias. And it tends to show into your statements even as it does with my own. Read Faunus's statements. He doesn't glorify Sidious. Nor does he glorify Dooku. He simply states the closest thing to the truth in this entire debate. Yes. I believe Faunus has a better opinion than you or myself. And if you will look, he even prefers Dooku! And still he says you are taking it out of context and it's getting out of hand.

So. Face the truth and see that maybe it's not just me who has the "problem" or the "bias". Maybe you have it too. Think about it.

Don't take this shit to heart, kid. It's gettin' sad now.

Why the hell are you debating about who started with name calling, really its pathetic, debate about the topic or stop debating... Seriously people. And if anybody says "he started it" again I'm going to kill myself.

Originally posted by Fishy
Why the hell are you debating about who started with name calling, really its pathetic, debate about the topic or stop debating... Seriously people. And if anybody says "he started it" again I'm going to kill myself.

I seriously hope that was exaggeration. If you off yourself, we'll have to live with the guilt. And then it's one less person to participate in my new ongoing thread.

Originally posted by Fishy
Why the hell are you debating about who started with name calling, really its pathetic, debate about the topic or stop debating... Seriously people. And if anybody says "he started it" again I'm going to kill myself.

He started it.



I'll arrange the rope for you, Fishy. :P

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I seriously hope that was exaggeration. If you off yourself, we'll have to live with the guilt. And then it's one less person to participate in my new ongoing thread.

Of course it was, but its a waste of a potentially good thread to argue about who started it... Its better to just ignore it Janus or post a picture and then ignore it, cause this is annoying as hell.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
When it comes to the Force, Dooku stalemated Yoda, not Yoda overcame Dooku's force lightning and reflected it back enough to even budge the dark lord. Yes, Yoda didn't use any aggressive techniques. That is true. But he didn't gain any ground during the Force duelling, and he didn't gain any advantage. But against Sidious, he actually turned things against Sidious, and from quite a disadvantage, too. You must see that much.

And to say Yoda bested Dooku in saber combat is an opinion at best, and unsupported opinion at worst. There was no give on either side, and Dooku DID run, but with the clones assailing the planet he had other priorities. Obviously when the battle went on with no clear sign of a victory Dooku thought he couldn't waste his time when he had the Death Star plans in his pocket, and he ran.

And the last part is your opinion. Fair enough. You've never given me a reason to deny you even that, Apex. I disagree, but for reasons that have been gone over many many times.

I don't think Dooku intended to harm Yoda with the lightning, just show Yoda that he had learned a few tricks, and I think Yoda in turn showed Dooku your trick is nothing new, and expected Doou to use more darkside techniques, and when Dooku didn't use anymore but went straight for his lightsaber Yoda deceided that's all he knew and he still had much to learn about the force.

My memory is not as clear on the subject of the duel as it should be, seeing as I haven't seen it in a while, but from what I can recall I thought Dooku was pushed back and looked uncomfortable whereas Yoda seemed more fluid and graceful. Yoda never had to compromise, while Dooku was left on the defensive for the majority of the fight. After the fight Yoda took one big huff, took up his cane, and continued on like nothing happened. Like I said I don't really remember what happened so I won't challenge your argument, but just state the reason for why I said what I said. Which probably shouldn't have been said since I haven't seen the duel in a while.

After I watch it again maybe we'll have this argument over.

Yoda was going to win that duel, I think.

Count Dooku - to me - is the superior duelist. Makashi isn't focused on superstunts and back-flips. It comes down to actual swordsmanship ability. Count Dooku is the greatest DUELIST - in the PT.

But could he contend with Yoda? No. Why?

Because Ataru uses the Force to engage in impossible speeds. Not to mention Yoda is less than half of Dooku's height. A hard target to hit. In pure swordsmanship ability, I don't think Yoda is on par with Dooku. But Yoda's assistance of the Force, his experience, and his pure Force power were too great for Dooku to end.

If the fight had lasted longer - as Dooku's fear and frustration at being unable to find an advantage was evident - Yoda would have beaten him.

I've done a bit of research.

I've used Google and the Star Wars databank to try and look up even more information on Sidious and Dooku. The databank is a valid source, but neither really list specifically just how powerful Dooku and Sidious are to one another. It did mention that Sidious saw Dooku as more of an equal. In the book, Labyrinth of Evil, Dooku laments that he had "finally found his true master with Sidious". He mused that Sidious didn't need to waste time trying to educate him in things he was already proficient in - unlike Yoda.

So, from what I gather, to Sidious - Dooku was a step-up from the likes of Maul. And neither the databank nor any other book I can think of goes into detail on why Dooku fears betraying Sidious so much. Labyrinth suggested that Dooku had no true ambition for himself - ala Maul. Dooku was in awe of Sidious, and had no intentions of betraying him. Even Yoda couldn't tempt him to do so. So I'd have to say Dooku and Sidious were quite the tag-team of evil.

I found a site called Wikicities - a bi-product of Wikipedia. Some of you may immediately discard this information, but Wikicities and Wikipedia are very different, surprisingly. Wikicities has a section specifically and entirely devoted to Star Wars and NOTHING else.

The entries on Wikicities seem to be amazingly accurate. They differ from the regular ones on the Wikipedia. I will post some things I found on Dooku's bio and Sidious's.

It will be:

1. Their Introduction
2. Their Powers and Traits

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Yoda was going to win that duel, I think.

Count Dooku - to me - is the superior duelist. Makashi isn't focused on superstunts and back-flips. It comes down to actual swordsmanship ability. Count Dooku is the greatest DUELIST - in the PT.

But could he contend with Yoda? No. Why?

Because Ataru uses the Force to engage in impossible speeds. Not to mention Yoda is less than half of Dooku's height. A hard target to hit. In pure swordsmanship ability, I don't think Yoda is on par with Dooku. But Yoda's assistance of the Force, his experience, and his pure Force power were too great for Dooku to end.

If the fight had lasted longer - as Dooku's fear and frustration at being unable to find an advantage was evident - Yoda would have beaten him.

Saying Yoda would have beaten Dooku further along in the fight IS an assumption. Remember this.

Count Dooku's entry in Wikicities cites him as an incredible duelist. We all know that, of course, as well as the fact that he was a shrewed man skilled in politics - akin to Sidious. Yoda, Mace, and Jocasta Nu cite him as also being an amazingly talented Jedi with loads of experience and potential. He was a practitioner of the force for eighty years. So it is obviously apparent that he was talented in it. He was intelligence and highly charismatic.

We can also deduce that it is unlikely Sidious would've accomplished his goals for the Sith as easy had Dooku not stepped into the picture. But Sidious planned this long before he met Dooku. He sent Maul into the battle with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon - betting that Maul would win. So his goal was not to replace Maul with Dooku, making it clear Sidious would have gotten his way one way or another. But Dooku's assistance clearly helped.

So, knowing what we do about Count Dooku - as well as this accurate entry in Wikicities - we can deduce that Count Dooku is the superior duelist. But like Faunus said, not by leagues and leagues.

We also see that he and Sidious have many other things in common. They both stalemated Yoda - and lost to a Jedi of a lesser calibur than Yoda. In Dooku's case, it took two Jedi Knights to defeat him. Though, Sidious was faced with a Jedi Master. But Obi-Wan and Anakin worked well as a team.

It is implied - but stated otherwise - that Dooku was faking with Anakin, being instructed by Sidious to capture him instead of killing him. But even in the book - Dooku is surprised and caught off guard by how well they had improved since they last met. So, while Dooku may not have been LOOKING to kill Anakin - I do not believe he lowered himself to a level where he was just playing. Half-ass or three-fourths-ass at best, lol.

Now. The same with Sidious. Sidious lost against Mace. I used to think otherwise, but it says so on the Star Wars site. Now here is the odd inconsistancy.

The site says that Mace Windu was "second only to Master Yoda". The wikicities entry ALSO says that. I don't recall if it said Yoda was the better duelist, but it is heavily implied that Yoda is - as well as being the greater Force user. But Mace is stated as being highly exceptional as a swordfighter.

In the Phantom Menace times, Mace was bested by Count Dooku in battle. At the time, Dooku was obviously the superior duelist. But when you consider that Mace is almost 40 years younger than Dooku, you also see that Mace had MUCH more room for improvement than Dooku did. While I'm not saying Dooku didn't advance at all from TPM to ROTS, I am saying there's no way he had as much room for improvement as Mace did, being younger and having less experience with the Force.

It isn't clear if Dooku could still best Mace during the times of ROTS, if they fought. I'm not trying to take the steam off of Dooku, because it is strongly hinted that he was owned by Dooku before TPM.

The Star Wars site doesn't say that Sidious NEEDED Anakin's help to defeat Windu. It did say he was disarmed by him, but the entry for Darth Sidious states this:

"With Anakin's help, Sidious managed to defeat Mace..."

Now. Notice. Some of you are probably thinking "Somebody just SAID that he might not have needed Anakin's help, but the site said he did." Correction. The site said "WITH Anakin's help". Not "ONLY with Anakin's help".

I could use a million dollars. That sure as hell would help anyone out. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they NEED or require it. It is also strongly believed that Mace could not have defeated Sidious in any other situation. Mace would NEVER be owned by Sidious. But I don't think he'd win any other time.

That duel is full of inconsistancy. It isn't CLEAR as day that Mace beat Sidious and Sidious was going all out. If you compare Sidious's duel with Yoda, you see Sidious battle harder, faster, and using his immense Force mastery.

He did not use the Force with Mace, similar to Dooku not using the Force against Anakin.

Sidious killed three Jedi Masters with pure ease.
Dooku disabled Windu after a short amount of time.

Dooku did not use the Force against Anakin.
Sidious did not use the Force against Mace.

Dooku was DEFEATED by Anakin.
Sidious was DEFEATED by Mace.

Do you see the level of consistancy there? Think about it.

In short, the Mace vs Sidious duel and Dooku vs Anakin duel are each very ambigious and hard to detail. It leaves many questions open.

Yoda did NOT defeat Sidious in his battle with the Sith Lord in the Senate chamber. The site says that Sidious was too powerful for Yoda to defeat, though Yoda held his own for much of the fight.

But everyone believes Mace did defeat Sidious with Sidious going all out. If that's true, then are we to believe Mace is superior to Yoda? Or did the circumstances favor Mace? Or did Sidious simply not think of Mace as a legitimate threat? Or was it all simply orchestrated by Sidious to turn Anakin?

There are strong implications of the final two possibilities. Sidious did NOT use the Force in the same mannerism that Dooku did not use the Force against Anakin. Only against Obi-Wan. Sidious didn't use the Force against ANY of his Jedi Master foes.

So. Sidious might have not registered Mace as a threat, having killed three of his Jedi compatriots in less than ten seconds. So that may explain why he did not use the Force against him.

However. Sidious DID attempt to when Mace had him on the ground. This attack obviously did not work. So this also leaves questions open for consistancy.

In my belief, Sidious did a combination of acting overconfidant and then manipulating Anakin.

Sidious killed three of the four Jedi Masters with ease. He engaged in a saber fight with Mace for a little while, sparring. No where near exerting the intensity that he did with Yoda.

Then, when Mace outmaneuvered him and kicked his weapon away (that doesn't mean, by the way, that Mace is the better duelist) did Anakin arrive. Perhaps it was purely by coincidence.

But coincidence RARELY happens in Star Wars. Especially involving Sidious.

Now. Sidious had no saber. So here he was screwed, to put it lightly. This is where the situation either escaped his control, or where it was actually in his grasp still. Here, he cunningly manipulates Anakin into a test of loyalty. What better way to forever close off the Jedi to him, by participating in the death of one of his masters?

Anakin wasn't going to KILL Mace. That became evident when he agreed Sidious ought to have a trial. He didn't want to kill Mace or then see Sidious go unpunished. But he NEEDED Sidious alive. If Anakin was looking to kill Mace, he would've pierced his heart instead of disarming him.

Sidious must've realized this, and took the liberty of killing Mace all on his own.

Another inconsistancy is that in the book, Vaapad is the source of Palpatine's disfiguration. That the bolts channeled back from the saber onto him. True, sparks did fly across his face, but I don't recall it coming from the saber. It might have.

The Star Wars site declares that Sidious "became a well of Dark Side energies" proving that Sidious was so powerful in the dark side that it prematurely aged him as well as extended his life. He and Yoda are VERY similar, there.

Yoda and Sidious act in the same manner. They pretend to be weak and feeble when in truth, they are amazingly powerful. Like Sidious, when Yoda did NOT use the Force, he was fatigued and winded. Like an old man.

Odd how similar they truly are.

Back to the Dooku and Sidious parallels...

Mace is often credited as a superior duelist to Sidious. But did we ever see him outmatch him with his blade? No. People forget - as did I myself - that Sidious was not beaten by Mace outmaneuvering him with his saber.

Mace KICKED Sidious's blade away.

If Fishy and I are having a gunfight, and by some chance I get close to him and kick his damn gun away, does that make me the better shooter? No. Even if I DID disarm him and beat him, it doesn't mean that I can outshoot him.

The same for Mace. Mace was the better FIGHTER. But never in the duel does it show Mace being the better DUELIST.

And as for Dooku.

Dooku only used the Force against Obi-Wan. This was an efficient move in many ways. If Dooku wanted to capture Anakin and lure him to the dark side, harming his master was a smart move. However, if one is in battle - one also wants to rid one's self of his or her opponents. Dooku did just that, and now only had one opponent left. In a saber lock, Dooku goaded Anakin. Telling him that "You have hate. You have fear. But you don't use them."

Anakin did, and outmaneuvered Dooku. Feigning the fight he may have been, but Anakin outmaneuvering him was a failure on Dooku's part. Again, I'm not taking the steam off of Dooku - as this was filled with many unexplained inconsistancies.

But think about this.

I'm sorry, but this is just being picky now.



This has anything to do with Sidious fighting Dooku? No. Nobody said Dooku was a better coward than Sidious, or Dooku was a better Sith than Sidious.



Did you just use wiki and accurate in the same sentence? Accurate for what? Your debating purposes?



It's a bit more than simply "implied," thank you very much. It goes from Dooku dominating Anakin to Dooku encouraging Anakin and suddenly losing, not to mention early versions of the script, and what Sidious himself says.



Then why mention it at all if it wasn't "necessary"? Watch the movie, Sidious was on all fours, shooting lightning to try keep Mace at bay, and was pleading his case with Anakin, and if Anakin did not disarm Mace, Mace would have killed Sidious. So yes, it's pretty much "only" with Anakin's help. You're wildly speculating and assuming that Sidious could have beaten Mace.



How many other situations? Sidious JUMPED out of his chair, used the dark side to cloud their force powers, and took out three Jedi in seconds, he had the advantage of location AND surprise, and couldn't beat Mace. How many "other situations" are you thinking of? Even his lightning couldn't beat Mace, who deflected it back.



WTF is this? Yoda is 2 feet tall, Mace is 6 feet tall. Yoda's got a short lightsaber, and Mace has a longer one. If you watch fights or participate in martial arts, you'd know very well that the pace of the duel doesn't necessarily indicate the individuals overall ability. A fight can be intentionally slowed down to one adversary's favor. Simply because he did more flips and more parries, which was NECESSARY against someone like Yoda, doesn't mean he was fighting a better duel.



Where'd you get this?



I didn't see Sidious egging on Mace and asking him to use his anger, did I? I didn't see Sidious taunting Mace like Dooku was taunting Anakin during his entire fight. In fact, I saw Sidious getting knocked to his ass real quick.

You're committing perfect logical fallacy, simply because the two duels have preliminary similarity doesn't mean its the same situation.

How the f*ck is this relevant to the discussion? I bet Anakin could beat Yoda in a race without the force, what does that mean for anything in a fight. Sidious didn't beat Mace, Sidious got beaten by Mace. Even with sabers Sidious didn't beat Mace, end of story.



Think about what? The horrible LACK OF LOGIC you're demonstrating?

If Sidious TOLD Dooku to lose, which is strongly implied, the entire point is moot, it doesn't show similarity, it doesn't provide food for thought, it shows you're desperately grasping for straws.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
We also see that he and Sidious have many other things in common. They both stalemated Yoda - and lost to a Jedi of a lesser calibur than Yoda. In Dooku's case, it took two Jedi Knights to defeat him. Though, Sidious was faced with a Jedi Master. But Obi-Wan and Anakin worked well as a team.

Dooko was fighting Obi-Wan (a Jedi Master) and Anakin (most powerful Jedi Knight at this time - according to Obi-Wan just about to join the Council). Still Dooku toyed with them.



Watch the movie again. Anakin couldn't defeat Dooku if Dooku would have given him his best. The point is the novel contradicts the movie here. If you watch the movie (and I think the following scene describes it best): Dooku force chokes Obi-Wan, kicks Anakin back at the same time and then throws Obi-Wan across the entire room they're fighting in. They are obviously without any chances. And Dooku lost it on purpose - 100 %



Sidious was on the ground and just hardly managed to keep Mace lightsaber away from his body. Without Anakin he would have died there.



Sidious used force powers that ravaged his mortal frame. What else should he have done ? There is no way he could have used more power.



No. Because Sidious lost to Mace because Mace was too skilled while Dooku lost to Anakin because he wanted to lose to Anakin. You can't compare those fights. If I want to lose, I lose.

Illustrious...

1. This thread is not really about who would necessarily defeat the other in combat. It is on who is superior in any possible way. I should know. I was the one who made it.

2. These are my personal musings that I am delivering to everyone.

3. I want evidence where Sidious used the Force to cloud their minds. As Faunus stated, the Jedi were going into the fight ready and prepared to take Sidious by force - and they ignited their blades. Then Sidious rose out of his chair, ignited his own blade, and uttered the line:

"So it's treason, then."

So please, do not presume that Sidious caught any of them off guard. He overpowered them. "End of story."

4. I would suggest you conduct yourself in a manner of ettiquette. If you continue, I will report you to the Moderators for bashing other users. I suggest thoroughly that you remain calm and collected instead of jumping the gun and insulting me. Fair warning. I've had enough of your remarks.

1. As I stated, Nai, Mace was the superior fighter. But not necessarily the superior duelist. Mace never outmaneuvered Sidious with his blade. He had to resort to a spinning kick that knocked Sidious's saber away from his hand. He didn't do anything with his weapon that Sidious did not counter, or vice versa.

The ability to kick an opponent's weapon out of their hand makes them the more skilled combatant - but not necessarily the superior duelist.

2. You mis-understand. I don't mean that Sidious could've salvaged the predicament he was in when he was knocked to the floor. I meant that if he had control of the situation, he lost it when Mace disarmed him and had him cornered. As we saw, Mace managed to keep Sidious's own lightning assault at bay.

What I meant, Nai, was that Sidious was more aggressive and openly used the Force against Yoda whereas he did not against Mace. Not to mention Anakin arrived just in time to see Mace towering over an unarmed and cowering Chancellor. That IF Sidious used the Force and was even more aggressive than he had been with Mace, I believe he would've beaten him. Mace stalemates him in a saber duel, but I think his Force powers are superior.

3. Like I said with Dooku. It is implied that he lost. But forgive me if I'm wrong, it doesn't state it. Like I said, I would have no problem agreeing with it if Lucas said it were true. It would explain why Dooku lost, as I have a hard time believing Anakin and Obi-Wan improved that much. I don't think he was putting his greatest effort into the fight, but Anakin did outmaneuver him at the end - and Dooku died as a result. I wish Lucas would simply EXPLAIN these things.

Oh and Illustrious...

As for my "Dooku disabled Windu in a short amount of time", I meant he disabled Obi-Wan.

The end all is that you'll tweak it so Sidious will win. What next? Who had more political power at their peak, Sidious or Dooku?



And those are my responses to said ridiculous personal musings.



What? Having a hidden lightsaber and suddenly flinging from your feet into battle isn't taking them by guard? If you were in battle, and I suddenly blindsided you, does that mean I "overpowered" you? No. The fact remains: they were not prepared to see that attack. Jedi operate on both users drawing and igniting their sabers, and then initiating battle, clearly Sidious leapt into it.



What did I say?

I'll go back and look:







Are you referring to these? Notice I'm attacking your worthless argument, not your person. So stop pretending your the victim here, end of story. You throw some unrelated, foul-logic, BS here, and I'll throw it back, citing said BS as unrelated and foul-logic.

Anyway, I remeber using this example before. Sidious is like a president. Dictator maybe.. He is a manipulator he can attract large amouns people and persuade them otherwise. He is good at leading an empire. Because of his abilities. He hasnt fought in ages, because he was leading the republic, while dooku trained as a dueler, he trained with both light and dark. He fought/sparred many others. So its clear that dooku has the advantage here.

Lets say, John Kerry was our president. And he was Sidious. And Our president now, err at least here in the U.S. George bush was Dooku.
Just because Kerry is the leader and recognized as the best mean he could kick bush's ass in a fight? NO! he would probably lose.

Wow, coming back for another round of BS?



So what are you trying to prove with this? Sidious got beat, plain and simple. Trying to play a game of semantics with duelist instead of combatant is being petty and stupid. Do you ever recall them peacefully negotiating rules to this "duel"?



Did you not notice that Sidious only used aggressive force attacks against Yoda when he was at bay? Go watch the fight again. When they were both in the pod, Sidious did not use a single force power, he and Yoda were dueling with blades much like Sidious and Mace was in the Office.

And there you go again. You produce wild speculation that "you think he would have beaten him" if he did something.

It's always shoulda, coulda, woulda with Sidious for you, isn't it? How does your speculatory crap pass in a debate?



It was in the original script, meaning it CLEARLY was in GL's mind that Dooku was asked to lose to Anakin intentionally. It was NOT in the original script where Sidious beats up Mace. There is FAR more to imply that Dooku threw the fight than Sidious: such as the fact he was TAUNTING Anakin to become stronger. And how does this support your argument in ANYWAY?

1. You again do not read all of my posts. I give Count Dooku his due. Nor do I insult him or discredit him as you do Sidious. It is clear that you do, Illustrious, whereas I don't. I try to be fair with both combatants.

2. You're still bashing. Simply agree to disagree. Or say that you do not believe that which I do. You do not have to go all the way and insult my arguments, Illustrious. You're not thinking on a level of maturity I once thought you possessed.

3. The four Jedi Masters entered the room. Sidious and Mace exchanged some banter. Then the four Jedi Masters drew and ignited their sabers. This is a clear indication that they were very much prepared to take Sidious by force. Sidious rose from his chair, jerked his wrist, and a lightsaber hilt fell into his hand. He ignited the blade and held it up for the Jedi to see. He then said: It's treason then.

He flipped over his desk and quickly dispatched the first two Jedi, before sparring with Kit and Mace - before killing Kit.

This is what happened. They were prepared to fight him. Sidious did not catch them off guard, Illustrious. They simply couldn't fight him and win. Nor did he use the Force to blind them, as you claimed.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Wow, coming back for another round of BS?



So what are you trying to prove with this? Sidious got beat, plain and simple. Trying to play a game of semantics with duelist instead of combatant is being petty and stupid. Do you ever recall them peacefully negotiating rules to this "duel"?



Did you not notice that Sidious only used aggressive force attacks against Yoda when he was at bay? Go watch the fight again. When they were both in the pod, Sidious did not use a single force power, he and Yoda were dueling with blades much like Sidious and Mace was in the Office.

And there you go again. You produce wild speculation that "you think he would have beaten him" if he did something.

It's always shoulda, coulda, woulda with Sidious for you, isn't it? How does your speculatory crap pass in a debate?



It was in the original script, meaning it CLEARLY was in GL's mind that Dooku was asked to lose to Anakin intentionally. It was NOT in the original script where Sidious beats up Mace. There is FAR more to imply that Dooku threw the fight than Sidious: such as the fact he was TAUNTING Anakin to become stronger. And how does this support your argument in ANYWAY?

1. If that is your argument, Sidious bested Yoda fair and square. The two combatants didn't sit down and discuss the rules either. Sidious won fair and square with Yoda, then, if that is your logic.

There is a difference between being the superior combatant and then the duelist. Everything Mace did with a lightsaber, Sidious countered. Sidious was also on the offensive for the majority of the fight, forcing Mace on the defensive. Mace KICKED Sidious's saber out of his hand.

By this, you're saying Mace is the better duelist. I'm saying he was the better fighter, to be sure. But no proof to indicate he was the superior duelist.

2. Again. I never said Dooku wasn't toying. I said it was, and I would very much like to believe that. But part of Dooku's plan wasn't to get his arms amputated or beheaded - like Sidious didn't want to get his face melted.

So, Illustrious. For the final time.

I advise you - when debating with me or anyone else - to remain civil. I am remaining civil with you, and it would be polite if you did the same. The next time you insult me or my argument, I will be reporting you.

No, the only thing that is clear is that you twist the parameters to give Sidious his due. I never once bashed Sidious as incompetent, I bash YOUR logical fallacy in debating him.



If your arguments do not make logical sense, I will attack them. That's what you do in debates. Either learn this, or go away.



First off, I just watched the fight, notice how Agen did not put the blade to defend himself, and how Saesee fell immediately after that. They did not even get a single attack or defense in. It's not like Sidious parried their blows or met their lightsabers, they were simply jumped.

If I menacingly loom over you, and then suckerpunch you, does that mean you were prepared? You're thinking way too closed-minded.

Point out, specifically, where I insult you? I insult your worthless argument, that is all. If you can't hold a good argument without playing the victim, don't bother trying to debate. Your incessant tattletale attitude is really annoying.

Sure he won fair and square with Yoda, did I ever say he didn't?



Again, semantics. Since there was no set rules beforehand, everything goes. PERIOD. END OF STORY. .

There were no established rules, Sidious, being unable to counter Mace's kick, showed poor prowess.



And how does this establish anything? You're trying to draw similarities with Dooku's loss to Sidious'. When it is clear you are beaten, you try to twist it around into saying "Dooku didn't plan to get his arms amputated or beheaded."

No crap, but that doesn't have much to do with their actual duel, now does it? Again, you're twisting parameters to fit your argument.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Point out, specifically, where I insult you? I insult your worthless argument, that is all. If you can't hold a good argument without playing the victim, don't bother trying to debate. Your incessant tattletale attitude is really annoying.

Read your last statement. Was that NOT bashing? There, you WERE insulting my person. So, I suppose I will have to be the tattletale, if it is to ensure the rules. Perhaps you believe that the rules shouldn't be upheld if YOU violate them, then?

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
So, Illustrious. For the final time.

I advise you - when debating with me or anyone else - to remain civil. I am remaining civil with you, and it would be polite if you did the same. The next time you insult me or my argument, I will be reporting you.

You enjoy reporting people after you initially push their buttons.

You're quite the funny one, Darth Somebody.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. If that is your argument, Sidious bested Yoda fair and square. The two combatants didn't sit down and discuss the rules either. Sidious won fair and square with Yoda, then, if that is your logic.

There is a difference between being the superior combatant and then the duelist. Everything Mace did with a lightsaber, Sidious countered. Sidious was also on the offensive for the majority of the fight, forcing Mace on the defensive. Mace KICKED Sidious's saber out of his hand.

By this, you're saying Mace is the better duelist. I'm saying he was the better fighter, to be sure. But no proof to indicate he was the superior duelist.

2. Again. I never said Dooku wasn't toying. I said it was, and I would very much like to believe that. But part of Dooku's plan wasn't to get his arms amputated or beheaded - like Sidious didn't want to get his face melted.

WHoa, hold on a sec here... Fair and Square?

Illustrious...

Mace DID disarm Sidious. Fair and square. That is true. But it's not my point - nor was I denying that. The fact that Mace KICKED Sidious's lightsaber away is perfectly fine. But that doesn't mean he is the superior duelist.

Am I pushing Illustrious's buttons? Tell me, Sorgo, where did I insult him or goad him? No where. I've remained civil throughout the entire discussion. I didn't slander nor call Illustrious's argument crappy when he said Sidious used the Force to cloud the mind of the Jedi Masters who went in to bring him in. Now did I?

Faunus, lol, I'm going by Illustrious's logic. I personally don't believe Yoda would lose. Eventually, he'd outmaneuver Sidious. He displays more confidence and courage than Sidious does.

Umm dooku disarmed mace's saber when the were sparring, so according to that, mace would have beaten him if he didnet!? No, dooku was far better than mace, if your a great duelist it doesnt matter if you pull off a cheap shot.

Now. All I would like is for you to remain simple. If you cannot argue without insulting someone else's rebuttle, you really ought not argue at all. Sorgo, the same goes for you. You tend to also insult and slander people for fun.

I debate by the rules. If you argue with me, you will do it peacefully. It's all I ask.

Did you not read MY last statement? I said, point out, specifically, where I was bashing you. Not only do you fail to do this, you simply circumvent the circumstances and play victim again. It doesn't quite have the same luster the nth time around, now does it?



So what does "superior duelist" show anything? The fact is, it was a fair fight, and the kick was perfectly inside the boundaries. Do you want to compare which of the two is a "superior farter" now too? What does superior dueling have anything to do with anything if he's not the superior fighter? Again, you're twisting around parameters.

I also like how you ignore every point made, and then respond by playing victim and arguing semantics. Real great debating there.

Admiral Ackbar, again, you're inferring.

I didn't state Sidious was the superior duelist. I said that Windu used a kick to disarm him, not any outmaneuvering of the blade. I said this is not enough to warrant Mace as the superior DUELIST. Then, like I said, Palpatine never broke through Mace's defenses either.

Hence why I did not label HIM the greater duelist, either.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Did you not read MY last statement? I said, point out, specifically, where I was bashing you. Not only do you fail to do this, you simply circumvent the circumstances and play victim again. It doesn't quite have the same luster the nth time around, now does it?



So what does "superior duelist" show anything? The fact is, it was a fair fight, and the kick was perfectly inside the boundaries. Do you want to compare which of the two is a "superior farter" now too? What does superior dueling have anything to do with anything if he's not the superior fighter? Again, you're twisting around parameters.

I also like how you ignore every point made, and then respond by playing victim and arguing semantics. Real great debating there.

1. The very last statement of your paragraph.

2. I'm not saying Mace was NOT the superior FIGHTER. I'm not saying Sidious threw the fight. I am simply musing on the multiple possibilities. Now, I did that for a reason. Most people said Mace was the better duelist. I disagree. He won the fight, but not through superior dueling skills.

I ask, no I dare you to find reason to call my argument crappy. Tell me where I use FALSE LOGIC, like you did, or CHANGE PARAMETERS, like you did, to justify my argument, please.

Point is, you use logical fallacy. Logical fallacy = bad debating. Period. It's a law of debating. If you aren't prepared to debate, don't post.



And when did Faunus post?

I didn't say Yoda didn't lose to Sidious. However, it was clear Sidious used the highground advantage, and on level terrain, WHICH THE OFFICE FIGHT WAS, Sidious may not have won. Mace beat Sidious on level ground, what do you have to say for that?



You don't know the first thing about debate, do you?

I can insult your rebuttal and your points all I bloody please. I'm not insulting your person, so stop playing victim here.

See, Illustrious.

I agree that Mace bested Sidious. I agree Mace was the superior fighter, hands down. I agree that he disarmed and outmaneuvered Sidious. But not with his blade. If we are trying to declare the superior duelist, then it wouldn't necessarily be Mace.

I disagree with you when you assume Mace is the superior duelist. What he did was NOT out of bounds. But like I said, lol, it doesn't make him the superior DUELIST.

Last paragraph, you mean this?



How is that insulting your person? You DID ignore every point I made. You DID play victim, by repeated saying you'd report me because I'm somehow "insulting you." And you DID argue semantics with the duelist vs. the combatant point.

That concludes POOR debating.



Again, if he's not the superior duelist, he still managed to win. How does that mean anything, then? If Sidious is the superior duelist and LOST, what does that do for him. Like I said, are you going to argue Sidious is a the superior farter too?

Originally posted by Illustrious
I ask, no I dare you to find reason to call my argument crappy. Tell me where I use FALSE LOGIC, like you did, or CHANGE PARAMETERS, like you did, to justify my argument, please.

Point is, you use logical fallacy. Logical fallacy = bad debating. Period. It's a law of debating. If you aren't prepared to debate, don't post.



And when did Faunus post?

I didn't say Yoda didn't lose to Sidious. However, it was clear Sidious used the highground advantage, and on level terrain, WHICH THE OFFICE FIGHT WAS, Sidious may not have won. Mace beat Sidious on level ground, what do you have to say for that?



You don't know the first thing about debate, do you?

I can insult your rebuttal and your points all I bloody please. I'm not insulting your person, so stop playing victim here.

1. I could call your argument crappy when you said that Sidious used the Force to cloud the minds of his Jedi attackers, that he sprung up on them and caught them by surprise. I've offered you proof that shows they were prepared to take him by force. They had their blades ignited first. He STOOD UP - withdrew his blade - ignited it - uttered a line of villainy - and THEN flipped over the desk.

He did NOT catch them by surprise.

2. Like I said. I'm NOT saying Mace did NOT beat Sidious fair and square. I said what he did does not label him the superior duelist. Just the superior fighter.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Point out, specifically, where I insult you? I insult your worthless argument, that is all. If you can't hold a good argument without playing the victim, don't bother trying to debate. Your incessant tattletale attitude is really annoying.

THIS is where you insulted me, lol. The rest was slanderous remarks as well. But I agree. Not specifically on myself.

Again, I countered this. Like I said, simply because they were prepared to fight does not mean they were EXPECTING said attack. You clearly don't have much martial arts experience if you believe this as true.



Again, I've answered this many times, it's a debate of semantics, and ultimately is irrelevant considering MACE BEAT SIDIOUS.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Again, I countered this. Like I said, simply because they were prepared to fight does not mean they were EXPECTING said attack. You clearly don't have much martial arts experience if you believe this as true.



Again, I've answered this many times, it's a debate of semantics, and ultimately is irrelevant considering MACE BEAT SIDIOUS.

1. No. You said he used the Force to cloud their minds. Like he used the Force on them to put them at a disadvantage. They couldn't beat him. THAT is a debate of sematics. And is ultimately irrelevant considering SIDIOUS BEAT THEM. Lol cool, ain't it?

2. No kidding. For the umpteenth time, what I wanted you to see is that while Mace defeated Sidious - he didn't do it through superior dueling ability. My goal wasn't to say or to even insinuate that Mace cheated. He didn't. But he wasn't the greater duelist by his actions, either.

Really, way to grasp at straws again. Let's break this down:



Fact. That is what I did.



Again, notice the word that says: "if". I'm telling you to STOP playing the victim and debate. If you can't, don't bother posting. Period.



Again. Fact. To me, and various others, your attitude is very annoying.

None of that is attacking you. So if (since you missed it the first time) you have the nerves of a 13 year old girl, don't bother playing victim, just stop posting unless you want more of your argument being slammed in your face (and more of the "insulting".

Illustrious, you gotta understand. I like Sidious. I do, you know that. But that doesn't mean I'm going to say he won something when he didn't. He LOST to Mace.

And yet at the same time, I'm not going to let you make assumptions that Sidious used the Force and cheated, and only wins battles through "catching people off guard".

Sidious won all of his battles. All of them. Not necessarily the DUELS, but the battles.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Really, way to grasp at straws again. Let's break this down:



Fact. That is what I did.



Again, notice the word that says: "if". I'm telling you to STOP playing the victim and debate. If you can't, don't bother posting. Period.



Again. Fact. To me, and various others, your attitude is very annoying.

None of that is attacking you. So if (since you missed it the first time) you have the nerves of a 13 year old girl, don't bother playing victim, just stop posting unless you want more of your argument being slammed in your face (and more of the "insulting".

Your last statement is where you reveal all of your arrogance. You assume because you and an assortment of people - including Sorgo - agree on something, it must be fact. It's not. You made an opinion. An insult. TO ME.

Again, different situation. I'm not trying to claim that Sidious "isn't the better duelist" and that he's the "better fighter" like you did. I never claimed those three were better than Sidious, end of discussion. You're twisting of the words means nothing.

Besides, the initial debate is of CIRCUMSTANCE, not of semantics.



Sheesh. Did you not read what I typed for the last 5 posts? It's a debate of semantics, and is irrelevant.

Mace beat Sidious. It doesn't matter if Mace is the better duelist or not. Trying to substitute wording is simply playing a game of semantics.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Your last statement is where you reveal all of your arrogance. You assume because you and an assortment of people - including Sorgo - agree on something, it must be fact. It's not. You made an opinion. An insult. TO ME.

Guess what? Annoyance is a FACT based on OPINION.

Unless you weren't aware, you can't measure annoyance, considering its an INTANGIBILITY. However, your attitude IS annoying to me, and to many others, hence force when I say it is annoying, it is a fact. It doesn't mean YOU think it's annoying. Way to circumvent the discussion again.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Guess what? Annoyance is a FACT based on OPINION.

Unless you weren't aware, you can't measure annoyance, considering its an INTANGIBILITY. However, your attitude IS annoying to me, and to many others, hence force when I say it is annoying, it is a fact. It doesn't mean YOU think it's annoying. Way to circumvent the discussion again.

Based on opinion. There you go. Which nullifies the FACT part.

So no. When you say I'm annoying, you're expressing an opinion. Nothing more.

So. Illustrious, do me a favor.

When you argue or debate - act like a professional. Or at least an adult. If you are, or acted like one, you'd see that there's a big chance you're not right. There's also a big chance I'm not right. Lucas is the only right one in this.

I treat my musings as opinions only. Which is, sadly, what yours is as well. I know it's probably hard for you to hear, but it is true. You're good. But you have absolutely no sense of etiquette or plain manners. You and Sorgo, as skilled as you are, need to learn that.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Hell. It's just all opinions. I don't have the real authority to say you're wrong. You may, in retrospect, very well be right.

But stop thinking Sidious is weak. I've never seen you ONCE defend the guy or his accomplishments. I'm beginning to believe you think Gunray could beat him.

Dooku and Sidious are good. But Sidious was the master, and Dooku's own fear and awe of Sidious are enough to warrant me that Dooku was obviously not so confident to take him on. That and just a plan lack of damn ambition.

That is my opinion. Which is on a level equal to anyone elses.

So. Have a wonderful evening/afternoon/morning everyone.

*sigh*

You guys argue in circles to often.

I have acted professional. I've insulted your arguments, and your arguments only. That is perfectly legal in the realm of debate.



I didn't add personal musings. I refuted YOUR musings.



I never once said Sidious is weak. When you say Mace is a better fighter, but not a better duelist, you're grasping... and I'm pointing it out.



Yes. Again, nobody said Dooku is the better Sith, because Dooku was ALREADY visible to the Jedi Order, Sidious was NOT. Dooku becoming Sith Lord would be next to impossible to succeed with.

I'm pointing out that you're twisting parameters to fit your case.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. If that is your argument, Sidious bested Yoda fair and square. The two combatants didn't sit down and discuss the rules either. Sidious won fair and square with Yoda, then, if that is your logic.

There is a difference between being the superior combatant and then the duelist. Everything Mace did with a lightsaber, Sidious countered. Sidious was also on the offensive for the majority of the fight, forcing Mace on the defensive. Mace KICKED Sidious's saber out of his hand.

By this, you're saying Mace is the better duelist. I'm saying he was the better fighter, to be sure. But no proof to indicate he was the superior duelist.

2. Again. I never said Dooku wasn't toying. I said it was, and I would very much like to believe that. But part of Dooku's plan wasn't to get his arms amputated or beheaded - like Sidious didn't want to get his face melted.


When will you people understand that Sidious' face did not melt from Lightning? Did Yoda melt and turn into green Yoda goop when he was fried? And i am pretty sure i didn't see Luke melt either.


Saying that Sidious' face melted from lightning is just pure absurdity.

I am guessing his eyes turned yellow from the Lightning as well, Darth Somebody?

And no, it wasn't Dooku's plan to get his shit chopped up but he was using a different Form and was going too easy on Anakin. Dooku wanted to be taken in. You think the Council would not let Dooku go if he persuaded them? Dooku was a highly respected Jedi and he is very charasmatic and persuasive. Him getting away from the council is not a large difficulty he was worried about. All i know is he had several chances to rape Anakin but resisted.

(ahem) Yoda was only hit directly without offering resistance to, Palpatine's Lightning once, and only very briefly, so no melting is going to take place.

As for Luke not melting, well, either Palpatine wasn't giving it his full effort or the Movie makers didn't have the availability to melt his face, or maybe the idea hadn't even occured to them that he might have melted.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Your last statement is where you reveal all of your arrogance. You assume because you and an assortment of people - including Sorgo - agree on something, it must be fact. It's not. You made an opinion. An insult. TO ME. Umm, it may be too late to say this but, he may only be showing arrogance and a tendancy to insult you only out of sheer frustration and irritation by your tremendous love of playing the b*tchy whiner. You've done nothing BUT acted hurt and insulted, and instead of brushing it off like most people, you try to counter it with polite understanding and what appears some type of phsyco-therapy.

You show your own arrogance by doing this and believing ppl will respect your wishes by asking them in the manner of insulting their own intelligemce.

1. I don't think that I am a b*tchy whiner. I'm simply requesting that he keep his cool and use some manners. I didn't demand that he do it. But Tangible, rules are placed for people to abide by them. I kept my cool. I was polite to Illustrious when he was not to me. He may very well be the superior debater. But I've seen that his dislike of Sidious is very much reflected in all of his statements. He constantly discredits any source that may even insinuate Sidious being powerful or a great Sith Lord. To Illustrious, it seems Sidious's many accomplishments are nothing - and that just because something has the title of Ancient Sith, they are necessarily greater to every extent. Which is, of course, not true.

2. To him, insulting one's argument is perfectly legal. Perhaps it is. It is similar to the American First Amendment - where it states that everyone has the freedom of speech. It doesn't mean you ought to necessarily practice and abuse that freedom. Illustrious was acting both arrogant and completely immature. His statements, and even you, have just admitted that. Illustrious may be more liked than myself around here. And his opinion may reflect those of the higher up debaters - such as Darth Janus and Nai Fohl - who are both admitted Dooku fans. Now. If you wish to critique my argument, then please do so. But spare me the lecture and attempt to try to make it sound like I was the one to blame for Illustrious's outbursts. Because I wasn't. His frustration and his immaturity are products of his own emotions and feelings. I do not force him to think or behave the way he does. What Illustrious did was 100 percent his fault - like everyone else.

And please. I'm not hurt. I'm simply stating that what he is doing is morally and ethically wrong. Ethics are again, based on opinion. So, as I said. And arrogance? Am I arrogant? If I demanded that Illustrious act kindly - without politely asking - then I would be arrogant to assume I had the authority to FORCE him to do anything. I didn't. Because I can't force him to do anything.

Originally posted by Sorgo
When will you people understand that Sidious' face did not melt from Lightning? Did Yoda melt and turn into green Yoda goop when he was fried? And i am pretty sure i didn't see Luke melt either.


Saying that Sidious' face melted from lightning is just pure absurdity.

I am guessing his eyes turned yellow from the Lightning as well, Darth Somebody?

And no, it wasn't Dooku's plan to get his shit chopped up but he was using a different Form and was going too easy on Anakin. Dooku wanted to be taken in. You think the Council would not let Dooku go if he persuaded them? Dooku was a highly respected Jedi and he is very charasmatic and persuasive. Him getting away from the council is not a large difficulty he was worried about. All i know is he had several chances to rape Anakin but resisted.

Lol. You're mis-understanding. I didn't say Sidious got his face melted by the lightning. I said sparks did shoot off of it, but I don't recall or seeing any reason why the lightning was to blame. I stated that other sources cite the lightning as a reason for Sidious's disfiguration. I do not believe it was.

The Star Wars databank said that when Sidious summoned the Force lightning he used against Mace, he did it suddenly and with such power that the Dark Side energies within him were so intense and so powerful that they virtually disfigured his body. Hence why the lightning crawled up his face and head without being necessarily reflected from Mace. At that moment, I think Sidious was simply the pure embodiment of the Dark Side to the extent where it just melted his face and hands.

Secondly, as I stated before - Dooku didn't go all out on Anakin. It is obvious when Dooku bested Obi-Wan with sheer ease, and Obi-Wan later went on to slay Grievous and defeat Anakin. Suddenly, Dooku is then trying to persuade Anakin to use his Dark side feelings. He did, and outmaneuvered Dooku at the very end. Had Dooku not been ordered to go easy on Anakin by Palpatine, I'm certain he would have bested him.

Illustrious.

1. Just please drop it. This argument is going in circles - and it's off topic. Simply treat people with respect that all humans deserve. It's all I ask. Whether or not I am wrong in your eyes doesn't excuse the attitude you're showing.

2. Then I suppose when people say Yoda was the better duelist with the Sidious debate, they're also grasping? Because even if Yoda could outfight Sidious, he still lost. Which is what you're saying in regards to Mace. Even if Sidious was the greater duelist, he still lost. I'm not grasping. I'm merely stating a fact. Mace won and should be attributed the victory for the battle. I never ONCE denied that, Illustrious. So no, I'm NOT grasping. I went out of my way to state that Mace did outfight and outmaneuver Sidious. But not through superior dueling ability. I am simply saying - Mace shouldn't be attributed to always beating Sidious in the versus thread and that he is the superior duelist. Because he wasn't. I'm not grasping at all, if you comprehend what my point was.

3. Dooku vanished. It was stated during Attack of the Clones. He vanished completely. The Jedi knew he was alive, but not where he was or what he was doing. He re-appeared at the head of the Separatist movement. Sidious could completely shield himself from the Jedi Order. Completely. Only at his desire did he choose to reveal himself. Which is a very talented and very skilled ability that deserves the respect.

I do not know if you're trying to undermine Sidious's ability to do as such or if you're legitimately saying Dooku was incapable of doing it. But regardless, it was a great talent that Dooku apparently never did. Like I said. I'm not slandering Dooku. But he really hasn't done anything THAT I RECALL (which I may very well be wrong) that would ever warrant me to say he had Sidious's strength in the Force - let ALONE in the Dark Side.

I have one thing to respond to this, as I have very little reason to pick apart scraps.



Err hem..



I can insult your argument all I want. In fact, that's what you DO in a debate. You destroy the other argument, especially if it makes no logical sense, period.

Your attitude, apparently thinking that you are somehow the victim, is both annoying as hell and unnecessary. It does not fuel good debate, it only shows your ignorance to what a debate really is. If you wish for me to insult your person, you can ask for me to do that anytime. But I have not yet done so. So keep your comments and whining attitude to yourself.

You said it yourself: YOU don't think you are a whiner. Others do. So drop it.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Admiral Ackbar, again, you're inferring.

I didn't state Sidious was the superior duelist. I said that Windu used a kick to disarm him, not any outmaneuvering of the blade. I said this is not enough to warrant Mace as the superior DUELIST. Then, like I said, Palpatine never broke through Mace's defenses either.

Hence why I did not label HIM the greater duelist, either.

So what? There is nothing wrong with using a kick or a punch. If mace was smart enough to figure it out(kick, disarm, destroy lightsaber) then it does make him the better fighter.

^^Very true. No matter what means are necessary, in a one-on-one duel, whoever is victorious is the better fighter.

No, because our neighborhood Somebody is attempting to argue that that makes Mace the better fighter instead of the better duelist.

Whatever, he can think what he wants, I don't feel like refuting poorly thought out arguments anymore.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I have one thing to respond to this, as I have very little reason to pick apart scraps.



Err hem..



I can insult your argument all I want. In fact, that's what you DO in a debate. You destroy the other argument, especially if it makes no logical sense, period.

Your attitude, apparently thinking that you are somehow the victim, is both annoying as hell and unnecessary. It does not fuel good debate, it only shows your ignorance to what a debate really is. If you wish for me to insult your person, you can ask for me to do that anytime. But I have not yet done so. So keep your comments and whining attitude to yourself.

You said it yourself: YOU don't think you are a whiner. Others do. So drop it.

Again. You assume to give me an order. Illustrious, you're not God. Don't talk to me as if I'm beneath you. Because generally, you'll simply receive the opposite. So do yourself a favor and request. But don't order. It's actually sort of pathetic that you'd try and do it. And then think I'd obey you.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, because our neighborhood Somebody is attempting to argue that that makes Mace the better fighter instead of the better duelist.

Whatever, he can think what he wants, I don't feel like refuting poorly thought out arguments anymore.

Good. Then we have no problem.

There is a difference, by the way. Jet Li may be a better fighter than Ewan MacGregor. But does that mean he could defeat him in a battle with swords? Now do you see my point. Jet Li would kick Ewan's ass in a physical battle - but not in a contest of who is the better duelist.

Which is again, my point.

Admiral Ackbar, I have stated continously - many, many - times that Mace outfought Palpatine, so either you intentionally didn't look or you're trying to go out of your own way to defend Mace when he doesn't need to be defended. Mace won the fight. He pulled a smart move. I'm not saying he cheated or that he won unfairly. There's no such thing as a fair fight. But he did not outDUEL Palpatine. Palpatine and Mace were very much equals. It may take you time to notice, but you'll see that Mace and Sidious never broke through one another's defenses. Mace used a spinning kick to disarm Sidious, instread of using his blade. Again, this isn't to slam Mace or take the steam off his victory. He won. But that doesn't make him the superior duelist. Chances are, if they fought again - and Sidious openly used the Force BEFORE being knocked on his ass - he would've beaten him.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Again. You assume to give me an order. Illustrious, you're not God. Don't talk to me as if I'm beneath you. Because generally, you'll simply receive the opposite. So do yourself a favor and request. But don't order. It's actually sort of pathetic that you'd try and do it. And then think I'd obey you. That's right....................I'M God!

Seriously though, I side with Illustrious on this one. Not about the Sidious thing, but about the debate thing.


Your asking us to respect your thoughts:

1. Over the internet? Are you insane? Noone respects anyone over the inernet if you don't know that person in real life. It's just not Karma.

2. Your polite. Stop being so formal, I tried it before, got me nowhere. Don't ask people (again over the internet) to treat your comments in an orderly, sincere fashion. Human nature shows us we won't.

3. Debates ARE meant to be pulled apart by the oppostion. Look at the Presidential campaigns. Tearing at each other's personal lives. We can't really do that here, so instead we pick apart each other's way of talking, and perspective of the situation.

Stop being so nice and start talking like Samuel Jackson in Pulp Fiction. (Hey! Look, it's Mace. OOOOHHHH!)

So use profanity every other word? Lol.

Every FIVE words.

You know what I mean.




Mothaf*cka