Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Would the Jedi be stronger if they where allowed to love, so that when they fought they where fighting for someone other than whats good?
For me I would say yes as you hear of so many stories of people couping with things because they kept the thought of a loved one in there heads. That image gave thm strenght so why wouldnt it of helped the jedi?

Sure, I guess.. That WAS the whole temptation of the dark side wasn't it? Fighting with agression and such to be stronger and faster, or would it be better to keep concentrating during a fight?

Nope, look at Anakin.

So take the example of a person taken hostage and touchered some times the only reason they dont say anything is because theyre feeling for loved one keep them going. Yes I can de a disadvantage but surely everyone has been in a situation where they got through it because they had loved ones?

Jedi are encouraged to love, just not obsessively upon a single person.

To phrase the question as you want it to be asked- would Jedi be stronger if they were allowed to form attachments?

NO- that is absolutely the lesson of the films. Attachment is disastrous to a Jedi and that is all there is to it.

It's not disasterous as long as the Jedi teach you to control your emotions. It's like Jolee Bindo stated in KOTOR, well I forgot what he said, but y'all know what I mean.

Power to the KotOR.

Yes, I remember Bindo spouting blatantly un-GL (and so therefore incorrect) sentiment in KOTOR.

GL is very clear at this point- such attachment will doom a Jedi. It is forbidden for VERY good reason and any EU source that makes out it is possible is simply incorrect.

I will restrain myself from making a retort to your comment, Ushgarak
because I know that when ever someone argues with your opinion you ban them. *Walks of to corner, and whistles loudly.*

I've disagreed with Ush and he hasn't banned me yet. But in this case I totally agree. GL tries to point out that attachment can lead to unhealthy developments, and when you have power such as the jedi do, you need to have a clear, focused mindpoint. You cannot be petty and act like Anakin does. Actually, I'd argue that he doesn't really love her at all. It's more passion and desire than actual love. He never listens to her opinion, he doesn't share things with her beyond a certain point. I mean, he confides more in Palpatine, the father he never had, more than he does his mentor of thirteen years and the soon-to-be mother of his children! Point being, Ush covered this one nicely in his first post. And I've argued this point -int depth- with you before, Revan.

Yes we have but I feel like it wasnt settled, I agree feels came make you cause problem but I still think that Luke only beat Vader by using his emotions so why shouldnt the jedi in short bursts as long as they keep control of it. Maybe having ckildren wand a family would help them find peace

Because that single burst of emotions showed him the dark side.

Jolee talks about how love can be good if you control. But he seems to forget that his wife joined Exar Kun but only really fell to the Dark Side when Jolee refused to join her. Thats when she got pissed and attacked him tried to kill him, tried to end his life. Thats when she really fell to the Dark Side.

An attechment can end good 1 out of a 100 times. But it will end bad the other 99 times. The Jedi are right to say it isn't allowed. If you are close to falling to the Dark Side it might save you, but it will more likely make you fall faster. It will more likely turn you then save you. The Jedi know what they are talking about here.

Luke reached for the power of the dark side when he needed to, I think all jedi fight with all they have whenever they need to fight (wich is not supposed to happen as they are keepers of peace) and the rest of the time they keep calm like monks! (cool huh?) But Anakin suddenly went stupid, but I can't understand the dark side anyway because it's fiction.

But what about Bastilla and Revan the only way to turn her back to the light is to tell her you love her and in truth are in love wuth her. That doesnt add up on my view, if the Jedi deem close personnal bond as dangerous then they never really live a full life, just imagen what your life would be like if you had no loved ones and would never have them whats the piont

Originally posted by Dark Exile
I will restrain myself from making a retort to your comment, Ushgarak
because I know that when ever someone argues with your opinion you ban them. *Walks of to corner, and whistles loudly.*

You know what? the exile tells the truth.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes, I remember Bindo spouting blatantly un-GL (and so therefore incorrect) sentiment in KOTOR.

GL is very clear at this point- such attachment will doom a Jedi. It is forbidden for VERY good reason and any EU source that makes out it is possible is simply incorrect.

that was the belief of the Jedi. There have been Plenty of sucessfull Married Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth JLRTENJAC
that was the belief of the Jedi. There have been Plenty of sucessfull Married Jedi. Who WEREN'T overly obsessive......like a certain Vader we know.

Like I said, Anakin's relationship to his wife and hsi attachment to his mother weren't healthy. That's not the norm, but it is something the jedi are trying to avoid. Obviously this isn't apparent, since it's spawned this thread.

I thought GL made this clear in the movies? While a Jedi will gain strength with his passion with that strength comes the dark side and well you know the drill...

No, people always try to find loopholes in everything. Apparently it's human nature, but some people just can't admit that some things in life are ABSOLUTE. It's like gravity. It exists. You can't change it by wishing it didn't exist. Shut up and get a parachute. Passion is dangerous. It's pretty ****ing obvious, I mean, domestic violence is more common than a 120 IQ. But there's always people who are wishing reality were different, arguing... "Well, what about there being a neutral side of the Force?" or "Why can't jedi love?" or "Can I have my cake and eat it too?" No, the Force is either good or evil. If it was neutral, it wouldn't do anything, because being a source of life and power and yet not working for either good or evil is impossible. Jedi can love, they shouldn't form unhealthy attachments. The results are BAD. As in, not good. And no, you can't have both. Give it up already. GL's story is about power, and how it must be responsibly used. Why do you think Anakinw as meant to be so powerful and yet never realized that power? Because he took it for granted and misued it, and it consumed him. Period.

Here, go read Aesop's fables. If you don't get those, then you're helpless.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
No, the Force is either good or evil. If it was neutral, it wouldn't do anything, because being a source of life and power and yet not working for either good or evil is impossible. Hence the reason to the hatred surrounding NJO.

LJ pretty much nails it there. You cannot go around trying to find general exceptions to something that GL has stated as an absolute. Any tales of married Jedi are contradicting GL and hence incorrect.

Jedi + attachment is simply wrong- and so I am sorry, but that means no marriages, and no love affairs (they should love in general, not specifically), and KOTOR has fundamentally struck out into the realm of contradicting canon in those areas- and to read Bindo's lines, it is simply because the writers did not understand GL.

They have a right to make their own interpretation, of course, but don't go thinking it is official. GL has already nailed that.

To remind people what GL said- when you have attachment, you have fear of losing that attachment. And we all know where fear leads.

Now, obviously, all Jedi would have fears of their friends being killed, or the Republic being destroyed. They aren't robots. But that's relatively ok.

But with love? Love is SO strong- as the people who like the champion its cause always say first. How can you ever actually seriously love them and NOT become seriously afraid to lose them?

And at the point you ARE seriously afraid... it becomes attachment too dangerous for a Jedi.

By the time you dilute the love enough so that it is safe for a Jedi because he would not be overly afraid... then it is no longer love any more.

That's the deal. With the true love comes the true fear of loss; that is an absolute, and Jedi must be forbidden from it.

Begin afraid to lose something can also give you strenght and saying passion is dangous is cr1p, there are no absolutes in this world even gravity has its so called loop holes. Passion can lead to angrue but it can also lead to other things. I bet even LJ has felt passion befire does that mean he is gonna bash someones head in?
Everybody happens strong emotions every day and we dont go round looping peoples heads of now do we, so why cant the jedi are they really that weak that they can't handle being in love, I strongly doubt it.

Just because some stuffy jedi a billion years ago says you shouldnt fall inlove doesnt mean it is right. Take the Catholic Church even they had to change there ways and allow there followers a choice so why would the Jedi?

No, it doesn't disagree with GL Ush, Jolee is giving his personal opinion which is different than the order, GL makes the point that the council frown eds upon love, where the individual can disagree.

Sorry Ushgarak and Janus but I have to throw some contradicition in here.

a) The Force:
The Force itself is neutral. "Good" and "evil" or "light" and "dark" are only defined by the individuals who use the force not by the force itself. It's like power in the normal world. "Power" itself is neutral and the people who use it make it look "good" or "evil".
As you see there is no "natural" dark side in the SW universe - nowhere. All places or animals who belong to the dark side where affected / created by individuals who used the dark side.
That is why the dark side is frightening as it is because it's no threat from the outside - each individual carries the potential to be good or evil within them. They decide for theirselfes.

b) Jedi and attachment:
The problem here is that most EU stories in which Jedi were married or fell in love with each other were released before the PT. In the OT there is no hint that an attachment would be bad for a Jedi as long as he doesn't forget what has to be done and it doesn't develop negative emotions. In ESB Luke thinks he has to go and rescue his friends (attachment) and Yoda didn't tell him that "the feelings for his friends will lead to the dark side" no he just says that Luke risks everything his friends have fought for by going and try to rescue them.

And for "love = bad" as an absolute. What do you think made Vader turn back to the light in ROTJ ? The love for his son. Or the love for his children as he told Luke to tell Leia that there was still something good left in him. So KotoR doesn't contradict the idea of SW or Lucas - in fact they use the same dramatical effect: Turning somebody from the dark back into the light with love as motivation.

But (from Jolees story) we also get to know that an attachment can lead to the dark side but it doesn't necessarily have to. Again it is a question how people deal with their feelings. Nomi Sunrider for example remained calm when her husband was killed - somebody like Anakin would have gone mad in the same situation. And please - you can't tell me that a Padawan won't develop an emotional connection to his Master who trained him for more than a decade again a question how you deal with it.
Imagine Anakin and Obi-Wan (both AotC) had fought against Darth Maul in TPM with Obi-Wan having Qui-Gons part and getting killed their. Anakin would again have gone mad where Obi-Wan in the same situation didn't.

So to answer the basical question:
Love or other emotional connections will make Jedi more vulnerable to the dark side so they can be considered as a problem. On the other handside they can be helpfull to turn them back if they'll ever will turn to the dark side. But there is no way love or emotional connections will make a Jedi stronger.

Fohl, you are the man.

The dark side is weird anyway, so what happens anyway? Do you get manipulated and lose a mind of your own or do you get consumed by hunger for power or something?

A little bit of both.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl


And for "love = bad" as an absolute. What do you think made Vader turn back to the light in ROTJ ? The love for his son. Or the love for his children as he told Luke to tell Leia that there was still something good left in him. So KotoR doesn't contradict the idea of SW or Lucas - in fact they use the same dramatical effect: Turning somebody from the dark back into the light with love as motivation.

No- wrong again.

ATTACHMENT equals an absolute bad, NOT just love. How many times do we need to make this distinction?

The kind of love that Anakin might have had for Luke was that of a father not a lover; he was not attached in the way you would be for a partner.

And he was redeemed by his son, but only because his son allowed him to reflect on his life. There is absolutely no indication that love for his suddenly turned him good- it certainly hadn't earlier. It was only at that last moment in ROTJ that he finally saw the truth of it all.

Yet if Vader has been attached to his son to the point of fearing to lose him... then yes, that would be just as wrong as love for a partner. Attachment would cause fear would bring the Dark Side. The logic cannot be escaped. It will bring you down, it will never help bring you up, for the Fear will still be there.

If you cannot let go of the attachment, and so the fear, you are doomed.

KOTOR absolutely contradicts Star Wars in that department. I am sorry but it simply does. It ignored what GL has to say on WHY attachment is bad for a Jedi.

It doesnt contradict, there acting on the part of individuals, and by the way, why did you shut down my topic?

Acting on the part of inidivudals? What does that even mean? It makes no difference. The base of it all is wrong.

I don't know why people are so desperate to believe that attachment can be a positve thing in a Jedi's life. GL's override on this is absolutely clear- it can NOT be.

And KOTOR flirting around with Dark Siders turning good again is one of its problemns- a tired old EU cliche that detracts from the power of the films.

Its just like the movies, even though the council frowns upon it they do it anyway, the individuals think love is good, not the council, say what you want about me, but when you bad talk KotOR the gloves come off.

Well, that is CERTAINLY fanboyism.

The talk might come from the individuals, but the message is clearly from the game designers.

Yes, I am a KotOR fan-boy and proud of it. The council didn't approve in KotOR, the didn't send you out to find the first person you might want to have a relationship with. So, in that view, KotOR does not contradict GL.

KOTOR is thematically in favour of the possibility of positivity of love for a Jedi, of which the above is a symptomn. It is incorrect (or at least uncanonical) in doing so.

And Revan Souer, this isn't just Jedi dogma. It is acquired wisdom, and GL says it is correct- that was, in fact, the lesson he wanted to giove aout the danger of attachment.

It is wrong to take this thread too serious anyway in my opinion.
The whole dark side thing is just too unreal.

And the whole fanboyism term is
If someone just can't convince then just ignore them, don't call it ffanboyism

When someone says that you can insult them and its fine but insult KOTOR and the gloves come off, that is nothing to do with convincing. That IS fanboyism. So read more carefully in future.

How do you know Ush, have you talked to GL, when asked at C3, If he would consider doing something with KotOR he said he would strongly consider it.

No, I've just read what GL says, pretty simple.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
When someone says that you can insult them and its fine but insult KOTOR and the gloves come off, that is nothing to do with convincing. That IS fanboyism. So read more carefully in future.

ieehh.. fanboyismm.. Who made that up anyway..

How do we know when someones gloves come off anyway, if someone wants to keep their opinion, fine. Maybe they just don't understand.

Well, I'll cheerfully withdraw and and just say it is silly, if you prefer.

And I'll repeat again for the record that I LIKE KotoR. I just:

a. Think the plot was better than many games, but not the genius thing people make it out to be

b. Had silly Force powers (belonging more to an arcade game than an RP)

c. Had some thematic 'issues'

That's all small change; the central part of it is just fine.

This thread is about one of those thematic issues.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
ATTACHMENT equals an absolute bad, NOT just love. How many times do we need to make this distinction?

Did you watch ROTS, Ushgarak ? "Only Sith deal in absolutes!"



He was attached to Luke, Leia, Sidious and Padme. Personal relations have a very strong influence in the SW saga and as I said before it's not always bad. Why do you think Luke stoped the attack on his father in ROTJ a second before killing him ? A rational thought like "Oh...I shouldn't kill Vader, that's not the way of the Jedi despite the fact that Yoda told me I must do that" ? No.



Do you really think that it was "reflecting on his life" enabled Vader to kill the Emperor ? He simply couldn't watch his son getting killed (because he DID love his child) and because of that he killed the Emperor.



From a moral point of view that attachment to his son was wrong but at least it did lead to the death of the Emperor and the destruction of the Sith. Vader killed the Emperor because of emotions (this WAS in fact a dark side action) but the result was overall "good".



See...THAT is the point. If you can not CONTROL your emotions and let go of the attachment you are doomed but that again is your personal decission and it's not necessesarily true that an attachment automatically leads to the dark side. Anakin for example is not attached to Padme...he is obsessed with her - so much that he can't accept the fact that she has to die like everyone has to die. He can't let go of the attachment. If somebody can...if he can accept the fact that people have to die and won't let his emotions overwhelm him than an attachment isn't automatically leading to the dark side.

See...If you can accept the fact that people have to die you don't have to fear their death any longer.



At the point where the attachment comes into the game it doesn't have an effect on a "Jedi". Bastila isn't a Jedi at this time since she has already joined the Dark Side. Same goes for Vader. Their attachments allowed them to be redeemed from the Dark Side. And here you should "think out of the box" as Lucas always says to the fans. If there are no absolutes ("Only Sith deal in absolutes." then there is no way you can say that something is only "good" or "evil". From a moralist point of view you can but from that point of view there is noone that always acts moraly right in the movies.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Did you watch ROTS, Ushgarak ? "Only Sith deal in absolutes!"



He was attached to Luke, Leia, Sidious and Padme. Personal relations have a very strong influence in the SW saga and as I said before it's not always bad. Why do you think Luke stoped the attack on his father in ROTJ a second before killing him ? A rational thought like "Oh...I shouldn't kill Vader, that's not the way of the Jedi despite the fact that Yoda told me I must do that" ? No.



Do you really think that it was "reflecting on his life" enabled Vader to kill the Emperor ? He simply couldn't watch his son getting killed (because he DID love his child) and because of that he killed the Emperor.



From a moral point of view that attachment to his son was wrong but at least it did lead to the death of the Emperor and the destruction of the Sith. Vader killed the Emperor because of emotions (this WAS in fact a dark side action) but the result was overall "good".



See...THAT is the point. If you can not CONTROL your emotions and let go of the attachment you are doomed but that again is your personal decission and it's not necessesarily true that an attachment automatically leads to the dark side. Anakin for example is not attached to Padme...he is obsessed with her - so much that he can't accept the fact that she has to die like everyone has to die. He can't let go of the attachment. If somebody can...if he can accept the fact that people have to die and won't let his emotions overwhelm him than an attachment isn't automatically leading to the dark side.

See...If you can accept the fact that people have to die you don't have to fear their death any longer.



At the point where the attachment comes into the game it doesn't have an effect on a "Jedi". Bastila isn't a Jedi at this time since she has already joined the Dark Side. Same goes for Vader. Their attachments allowed them to be redeemed from the Dark Side. And here you should "think out of the box" as Lucas always says to the fans. If there are no absolutes ("Only Sith deal in absolutes." then there is no way you can say that something is only "good" or "evil". From a moralist point of view you can but from that point of view there is noone that always acts moraly right in the movies. You have made all the points that I was to literate do put across thanks.

In the end what made Luke stronge was his love, his love for his father his sister and his friends. Maybe if all jedi did the same maybe they wouldnt go down the dark side. Take Ana if he was aloud to be with Pad he would of told Obi about his visions then he would not of gone to the extremes that he did thinking he could save her. He would of told Obi and Obi would of helped him but NO he had to keep it to himself

Originally posted by Revan Souer
You have made all the points that I was to literate do put across thanks.

In the end what made Luke stronge was his love, his love for his father his sister and his friends. Maybe if all jedi did the same maybe they wouldnt go down the dark side. Take Ana if he was aloud to be with Pad he would of told Obi about his visions then he would not of gone to the extremes that he did thinking he could save her. He would of told Obi and Obi would of helped him but NO he had to keep it to himself

Sorry...but now you are again missjudging the consequences of "love" on a Jedi.

a)
It wasn't love that made Luke strong. In fact he was either afraid of the thought that Vader and Sidious might pull Leia to the Dark Side or he was angry because Vader said he would do that. So Luke used either fear or anger to fight Vader back so he was using "dark side" emotions to win but at least stopped that emotions before killing Vader - if he had done it than he would have become the Emperors apprentice. No doubt.

b)
As I said: The consequences of love are not determined by the fact that a Jedi loves somebody. It's the Jedi's personality that leads to the dark side (being obsessed or unable to control his emoitions).

So if Anakin would have been allowed to have an relationship with Padme that wouldn't have changed his personality. He still wouldn't have been able to accept the fact that he might lose Padme at a certain point of his life. He still would have thrusted the Emperor because he is something like a father for him. He still would have turned to the dark side because he simply couldn't accept the idea of losing a beloved person.

Will people stop using 'Only Sith deal in absolutes' as a valid arguement? I don't get that, really I don't. What, is Ush a Sith? It cannot be used.

Ush is right, though Nai Fohl's 'If they can let go...' does work. Though, I highly doubt they can just 'let go.' It's very hard to do. They may accept the deaths as a future thing, but the depression and anger from the actual death would topple them.

Vader's love for Luke? I don't think Vader was afraid of losing him, he KNEW he was losing him, seeing as Palpatine was cooking him like a sausage. The sudden realization and whatever came with it caused Vader to toss Palpatine into the shaft.

Originally posted by Revan Souer
Begin afraid to lose something can also give you strenght and saying passion is dangous is cr1p, there are no absolutes in this world even gravity has its so called loop holes. Passion can lead to angrue but it can also lead to other things. I bet even LJ has felt passion befire does that mean he is gonna bash someones head in?
Everybody happens strong emotions every day and we dont go round looping peoples heads of now do we, so why cant the jedi are they really that weak that they can't handle being in love, I strongly doubt it.

Just because some stuffy jedi a billion years ago says you shouldnt fall inlove doesnt mean it is right. Take the Catholic Church even they had to change there ways and allow there followers a choice so why would the Jedi? Dude, it's the Dark Side of the FORCE. What do you think that it's actually real? We're not talking about love leading to you losing your house over divorce or anything tangible--real. No, we're talking about it leading down a path to something that doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Will people stop using 'Only Sith deal in absolutes' as a valid arguement? I don't get that, really I don't. What, is Ush a Sith? It cannot be used.


Actually it is a valid argument and if you don't like me to refer to SW on this point I can bring up Socrates ("Scio me nihil scire" - "I know that I know nothing" and have a debate with you about "absolute truth" and why it doesn't exist.

The point is that Lucas himself doesn't use attachments, relationships or love in a dogmatic way like "attachment is evil for a force user". What do you think was the reason for Lucas to read that many philosophical and spiritual / mythical books before creating Star Wars - to end up with a story where everything is simple, straight and dogmatic ?

If you have ever thought about the philosophy or spirituality behind Star Wars you might come to the conclusion that Anakin is more likely a mirror than a developed character. He doesn't fall to the dark side because of a singular act of evil - he walks down all the way because of (small) decissions and choices. And they all are based on his individual character. And thereby he mirrors the everyday life of a normal human being. You can decide - you can do right or wrong. That choice is up to you and what's right or wrong may also be determined by your personality.

And because Anakin is that "human" he isn't a real Jedi. That is told in AotC after Anakin killed the sandpeople.

Padme: "To be angry is to be human"
Anakin: "I'm a Jedi I know I'm better than this"

So he acts human but in the same situation knows that he shouldn't do that.



How many people will go mad because losing a beloved person (or just the thought that it MIGHT happen) ? How many people do think about losing somebody they love everyday ? I personally don't know anybody that wakes up in the morning with the thought "Hell...I would be totally screwed if my wife / husband / girlfriend / boyfriend will die tomorrow" because people normaly don't even think about situations like that.

And being able to "let go" is part of the Jedi philosophy. That's stated at several occassions in ROTS. When Anakin comes to talk to Yoda about his vision Yoda tells him that this is how life works - people die and you have to accept it. Later Obi-Wan and Yoda are talking about Anakin and they both say that they would sacrifice each others life if they are in need to do so and Anakin isn't able to do that.

A real Jedi would act with the same thought in mind that is mentioned for serveral times in "Heat" by Robert DeNiro: "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."

But what does that mean ? That any attachment will automatically lead to the dark side ? No. Not if you cling to the Jedi codex. And Anakin does ignore the codex when it comes to emotional issues. He isn't able to control his love for Padme since he is obsessed and not really "in love". I mean...have a look at his decissions and thoughts. In AotC when Padme fell out of that gunboat immediatly Anakin wants to land and pick her up - knowing that she wasn't hurt. How stupid is that ? You have the chance to prevent a war thereby saving millions of lives and you are willing to sacrifice that chance because you want to pick someone up despite the fact you know that he is allright - how stupid is that ? That is the situation in which you can see best what Anakins feeling are like. He is totally egoistic, obsessed and not caring about "higher means" and therefore that relation MUST lead to the dark side.

But for a "real" Jedi - somebody that has the ability to control his emotions an attachment or relationship doesn't necessarily have to be "bad" - it could, it most likely is but that isn't an "absolut" or "dogmatic" thing.



What do you think made Vader kill a person he had seen as kind of a father for 3 decades ? What made him sacrifice his own life to save Luke - somebody that he didn't really know very well ? The "realization" that he did something wrong before ? Ask yourself for which persons you would risk or sacrifice your own life - to the people you love (if any) and most likely your children.

I think we would all agree that Vaders love for his son turned him around, thasts the bottom line. If it was fear of lose him because he had feelings for him. And the same goes for Luke when he defeats Vader. Yes he is angry and afraid of what will happen to Leia if he fails to defeat the Emp but his fear is brought about because he loves his sister, if he didnt he wouldnt care. It is also love that keeps him from killing Vader and I quote "I can't kill my own Father" why because he loves him.

I still think that if Ana would of been able to talk to someone else about his feels other then Sid then things would of been different. Do you really think Yoda would of told him about the darkside and the possiblity that if he learned it he could bring her back from the dead, Im guessing no. Yoda would of helped, but Ana couldnt tell him because of the fact Jedi aren't meant to grow atachments.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Acting on the part of inidivudals? What does that even mean? It makes no difference. The base of it all is wrong.

I don't know why people are so desperate to believe that attachment can be a positve thing in a Jedi's life. GL's override on this is absolutely clear- it can NOT be.

And KOTOR flirting around with Dark Siders turning good again is one of its problemns- a tired old EU cliche that detracts from the power of the films.

It means that you can choose what to do, you have the freedom to kill or save Bastila. The whole love content is truly up to the player.

So, in KotOR, is it the developers who clash with GL, or the indivivdual player. Ponder that Ush.

Originally posted by Revan Souer
I think we would all agree that Vaders love for his son turned him around, thasts the bottom line. If it was fear of lose him because he had feelings for him. And the same goes for Luke when he defeats Vader. Yes he is angry and afraid of what will happen to Leia if he fails to defeat the Emp but his fear is brought about because he loves his sister, if he didnt he wouldnt care. It is also love that keeps him from killing Vader and I quote "I can't kill my own Father" why because he loves him.

Still that doesn't mean that love made them stronger. In fact they both used the dark side in that certain situatios and being turned to the light again after doing so.



As I said: There is no way that Anakin could have been saved because of his character. He was talking to Yoda and Yoda told him that death is a natural part of life and Anakin can't simply accept this. And even if he could have talked to thousands of people the decission is always between "letting Padme go" or "doing anything to save" her and it is his decission. In fact he knew the two options and their consequences and made his choice - and did the wrong thing. And he will always repeat that because again he was "human" where he should have been "a Jedi" (meaning: something better).

So clearly drawing on your emotions even for a brief moment make them stronger. So why dont the jedi teach to control emaotions but also to use them when needed?

Nai, I think you are mistaking love for attachment.

Loving is nothing bad and if you can love and can let go of the one you are married to and your children then there is no problem. As long as you will always put the Jedi first and love the Jedi order more there is no problem. But its only human to do not do that, its only human to be afraid to lose them.

Love leads to attachment, which leads to fear, anger hope... No love is not bad, and love is what turned Vader back to the light side. Love is what created Anakin Skywalker the second time. Love, but not attachment, he wasn't attached to Luke he didn't even know Luke. It was the love of a father for a son. Not attachment.

Love is too debatable a subject to be summarized on a SW forum. Especially when referring love to Force-users in SW. Anakin's overly-obsessive love towards Padme is what lead to his fall. But his sudden estranged love for his son at the last minute saved him.

Luke did NOT have an obsessive attachment to anybody. He didn't even realize Leia was his sister till a few days before the battle. Anakin had over half his life to dwell on Padme. In the heat of the fight, when Vader was taunting Luke about turning Leia to the Dark, it was the anxiety of having his twin sister fall to the Dark Side. Not die. To the Dark.

Love and obssesion/attachment is a big plot-hole in SW. The movies are spread over too long a time for the writers to fill in every bit.

Yes Obsession is bad but love can be a possitive thing and maybe if Jedi were aloud to love and have attacmants maybe not so many would of gone down the dark side.

No, because the fear would still exist, accepting it won't change it. This isn't like accepting Teenage drinking, or that teenagers have sex. It would be like accepting murder. You won't be able to prevent or control it just because you make it legal or inform people about it.

The is good, and evil.

Nai Fohl, I am afraid you still have it wrong.

First of all, Obi-Wan's line about absolutes does not override what GL himself has said about good and evil. It was clearly a riposte to what Anakin had just said. You could apply it to someone's interpretation over whether something is absolutely right or wrong, but the fact that good and evil as absolute entities exist in Star Wars is, I am afraid, an independant fact- it was the reason he made the Saga and goes to the core of Star War' existence.

"Why do you think Luke stoped the attack on his father in ROTJ a second before killing him ? "

Because he saw he was turning INTO Vader. Nothing to do with love. Surprised you could think otherwise.

"Do you really think that it was "reflecting on his life" enabled Vader to kill the Emperor ?"

Yes. Why? GL said so. End of argument- sorry.

"See...THAT is the point. If you can not CONTROL your emotions and let go of the attachment you are doomed but that again is your personal decission and it's not necessesarily true that an attachment automatically leads to the dark side. Anakin for example is not attached to Padme...he is obsessed with her - so much that he can't accept the fact that she has to die like everyone has to die. He can't let go of the attachment. If somebody can...if he can accept the fact that people have to die and won't let his emotions overwhelm him than an attachment isn't automatically leading to the dark side. "

I am afriad both the films and GL contradict you. Again, GL has directly said that Anakin's PROBLEM is that he forms attachment. Attachment for a Jedi is bad- again, from GL, and so irrefutable.

If you let go of the attachment, that is not having the attachment. As should be obvious. So, attachment, bad- getting rid of attachment = the solution.

"At the point where the attachment comes into the game it doesn't have an effect on a "Jedi". Bastila isn't a Jedi at this time since she has already joined the Dark Side. Same goes for Vader. Their attachments allowed them to be redeemed from the Dark Side"

That is sheer pedanticism. Very well, if you prefer- attachment is bad for a force user. It will send you to the Dark Side, and it will only strengthen that position if you have them whilst Dark, because attachment causes fear.

So sorry, but you are continually wrong here.

Hello Ush.

Originally posted by Fishy
No, because the fear would still exist, accepting it won't change it. This isn't like accepting Teenage drinking, or that teenagers have sex. It would be like accepting murder. You won't be able to prevent or control it just because you make it legal or inform people about it. Teenage drink good, Jedi having a family bad
I dont understand you point, just because someone has a family and have attactment doesnt mean they cant control there feelings. Infact it might help the jedi from not turning. If he has feelings for someone other then himself it could keep him from making stupid choices

Keyword might. Better safe than sorry.

Originally posted by Revan Souer
Teenage drink good, Jedi having a family bad
I dont understand you point, just because someone has a family and have attactment doesnt mean they cant control there feelings. Infact it might help the jedi from not turning. If he has feelings for someone other then himself it could keep him from making stupid choices

Somebody made a point about allowing things would make it better.

Allowing Teenage drinking heavily reduces the accidents caused by teenage drinking (proven fact)

Allow the Jedi to marry would not stop their attechment and would not stop them from falling to the dark side, in fact only more people would get attached and more people would fall to the Dark Side.

i know it would stop attachments but if they had them as i said previously it might give them a reason not to go to the darkside... Me i would have to turn couldnt handle never having sex

lol

Well, jedi are not meant to be like normal people. That's why they're jedi. They are guardians of the peace, not super humans who bask in human emotion.

Originally posted by Revan Souer
i know it would stop attachments but if they had them as i said previously it might give them a reason not to go to the darkside... Me i would have to turn couldnt handle never having sex

Its going to be so much easier to turn somebody when they have somebody they love. Just make them think they are going to lose that person, they are going to get angry scared, feel hatred... They are going to make mistakes and they are going to turn Dark because of that. Or are probably going to turn dark because of that.

Originally posted by Fishy
Its going to be so much easier to turn somebody when they have somebody they love. Just make them think they are going to lose that person, they are going to get angry scared, feel hatred... They are going to make mistakes and they are going to turn Dark because of that. Or are probably going to turn dark because of that.

thats what i tried to say when i first posted in this thread!!!!
but maybe in some cases it could have the oposite effect...

But then again it could work in the oppisit way, if turning to the dark side would course harm to the ones you love then maybe you wouldnt turn

The more I read this thread the more insane I get.... thumbsup

Originally posted by Revan Souer
But then again it could work in the oppisit way, if turning to the dark side would course harm to the ones you love then maybe you wouldnt turn

No becuase the dark side isn't something human its a mystic thing its either that or not that.


When you are scared of losing somebody you will turn to the Dark Side or turn more likely. Probably to protect them or something, once you have turned it consumes you it becomes the very essence of your live. The Dark Side is all you have, the one's you turned for don't matter as much anymore and when they don't follow you you will hate them even more. Give into the hatred once and you will give in forever.

Now it could help you turn back later on, but thats not really a good reason to let you love. You turn Dark because of that and then later on you might turn light again because of that. Its stupid to allow things like that. Allowing attachments in the Jedi world is nothing but foolish.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Did you watch ROTS, Ushgarak ? "Only Sith deal in absolutes!"



He was attached to Luke, Leia, Sidious and Padme. Personal relations have a very strong influence in the SW saga and as I said before it's not always bad. Why do you think Luke stoped the attack on his father in ROTJ a second before killing him ? A rational thought like "Oh...I shouldn't kill Vader, that's not the way of the Jedi despite the fact that Yoda told me I must do that" ? No.



Do you really think that it was "reflecting on his life" enabled Vader to kill the Emperor ? He simply couldn't watch his son getting killed (because he DID love his child) and because of that he killed the Emperor.



From a moral point of view that attachment to his son was wrong but at least it did lead to the death of the Emperor and the destruction of the Sith. Vader killed the Emperor because of emotions (this WAS in fact a dark side action) but the result was overall "good".



See...THAT is the point. If you can not CONTROL your emotions and let go of the attachment you are doomed but that again is your personal decission and it's not necessesarily true that an attachment automatically leads to the dark side. Anakin for example is not attached to Padme...he is obsessed with her - so much that he can't accept the fact that she has to die like everyone has to die. He can't let go of the attachment. If somebody can...if he can accept the fact that people have to die and won't let his emotions overwhelm him than an attachment isn't automatically leading to the dark side.

See...If you can accept the fact that people have to die you don't have to fear their death any longer.



At the point where the attachment comes into the game it doesn't have an effect on a "Jedi". Bastila isn't a Jedi at this time since she has already joined the Dark Side. Same goes for Vader. Their attachments allowed them to be redeemed from the Dark Side. And here you should "think out of the box" as Lucas always says to the fans. If there are no absolutes ("Only Sith deal in absolutes." then there is no way you can say that something is only "good" or "evil". From a moralist point of view you can but from that point of view there is noone that always acts moraly right in the movies.


PERFECT post. There is no arguing with this.

Ushgarak, who appointed you as personal defender of everything that is canon? You are disturbingly like a Christian fanatic. I see you feel very strongly about SW but this certainly doesn't give you the right to spout off responses that are sometimes rife with veiled flames. Chill out, hmmm? This is all fiction, after all.

Originally posted by Darth_Emodas
PERFECT post. There is no arguing with this.

Ushgarak, who appointed you as personal defender of everything that is canon? You are disturbingly like a Christian fanatic. I see you feel very strongly about SW but this certainly doesn't give you the right to spout off responses that are sometimes rife with veiled flames. Chill out, hmmm? This is all fiction, after all.

Absolutely correct! It amazes me everyday how much meaning people see in sci-fi(!) and how much speculation goes on on these forums about fiction, while it is all left for our own interpretation.
But I like to join sometimes because I have nothing to do..

It's still a topic you can't resolve. It's personal decission, and individual personality. PLus the movies and story are too far apart to keep up with themselves.

The games don't do the topic any justice.