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Who wins and why

L.T. = the servant of God

Lucifer = Favourite Angel of God (well he used to be any way)

L.T. can destroy a universe, if necessary
Lucifer can create a universe, when he wants to.

Alot easier to destroy than create (unless you have Higher D tech)

Lucifer wins

Your telling me LT can't create a Universe?

Originally posted by yahman
L.T. can destroy a universe, if necessary
L.T. can destroy a million universes, if he feels like it.

"Virtually everything the Living Tribunal sets his will to can be done". What does that mean to you when somebody has the ability to do virtually anything

tribuanl isnt anywhere cloe to lucifer in power.

Doing anything means Anything......

Originally posted by leonheartmm
tribuanl isnt anywhere cloe to lucifer in power.
I know - sort of - how powerful Lucifer is. I still disagree with you however.

Originally posted by golem370
Your telling me LT can't create a Universe?

How did one come to this conclusion ? Just interested

By your commits.Lucifer was the king of Hell from time immemorial. Recently, however, he got tired of ruling the realm and gave it all up, leaving it in the hands of the Dream King. When last seen, he was playing in a piano bar in Los Angeles. His current whereabouts and plans are not known, although he'll be certain to turn up again sometime

Now when has the Living Tribunal ever sunk that low playing Piano in a bar lol

Originally posted by who?-kid
I know - sort of - how powerful Lucifer is. I still disagree with you however.


look at what both of them have achieved and are capable of doing, n look at their defeats, weaknesses etc, im sure lt id far outclassed.

LT and Lucifer are comparable in terms of power. They are on the same level. Its certainly not as clear cut as some of you seem to think. They are both gods servants Lucifer just rebelled. Given the revelations of Lucifer #39 however where we found out just how high in Gods favour Lucifer is (he favours him over Michael to be his successor) then id go for Lucifer. It certainly wouldnt be a walk in the park though. Existing in the same creation they would be peers.

lucifer is god's son, not SERVANT, same for micheal the only SERVANT god has is the spectar, and even he can go against god's will but he isnt that powerful when he does.

Originally posted by golem370
By your commits.Lucifer was the king of Hell from time immemorial. Recently, however, he got tired of ruling the realm and gave it all up, leaving it in the hands of the Dream King. When last seen, he was playing in a piano bar in Los Angeles. His current whereabouts and plans are not known, although he'll be certain to turn up again sometime

Well read it again

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT and Lucifer are comparable in terms of power. They are on the same level. Its certainly not as clear cut as some of you seem to think. They are both gods servants Lucifer just rebelled. Given the revelations of Lucifer #39 however where we found out just how high in Gods favour Lucifer is (he favours him over Michael to be his successor) then id go for Lucifer. It certainly wouldnt be a walk in the park though. Existing in the same creation they would be peers.

Yes .... its not clear cut.... not like the phoenix debacle

Originally posted by yahman
Yes .... its not clear cut.... not like the phoenix debacle

Hush you Whirly wannabe. When im next in Oxford i'll help you find your own identity

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hush you Whirly wannabe. When im next in Oxford i'll help you find your own identity



I have no idea what you are talking about

Originally posted by who?-kid
L.T. can destroy a million universes, if he feels like it.
No. He cant do ANYTHING just because he feels like it. HE can only ever do what his master tells him to do.

Originally posted by eleveninches
No. He cant do ANYTHING just because he feels like it. HE can only ever do what his master tells him to do.
And his master says : LT son, do whatever you want, I couldn't care less.

It say Living Tribunal "Virtually everything the Living Tribunal sets his will to can be done. that is direct from Marvel so it is so.

LT.

Originally posted by golem370
It say Living Tribunal "Virtually everything the Living Tribunal sets his will to can be done. that is direct from Marvel so it is so.

Yeh the 'Virtually' applies to Lucifer and co.

I'm gonna say stalemate, or close enough to it. They're extremely close in power, I don't think either overpowers the other enough to make it one sided.

Come on, LT got spanked by Thanos...that is worse than being stuck playing pianos

I don't really care who wins though since I think it is a tie but Lucifer is a far better character than the boring Living Tribunal.

in the same space they would be the only thing that matter but lucifer would be God, as in the God, if god didndt already exist...so i grant him favor over LT

The way I see it if he can get mentally tired of doing something he is not as aw-inspiring as people think. Living Tribunal does not get tired or bored he is beyond feelings and emotions.

Originally posted by golem370
The way I see it if he can get mentally tired of doing something he is not as aw-inspiring as people think. Living Tribunal does not get tired or bored he is beyond feelings and emotions.

Or maybe it shows a lack of imagination on the tribunals part

Or maybe Lucifer is not as Omniscient as he people clam him to be

Originally posted by golem370
Or maybe Lucifer is not as Omniscient as he people clam him to be

I don't think boredomand tiredness in a task equates with lack of power, it equates with lack of interest due to the task being one the individual carrying out the task is not interested in.

Well why not. If you can't in vole yourself then does that not make unimaginative. Or weak

What so called Omnipotent being has that problem?

Originally posted by golem370
Well why not. If you can't in vole yourself then does that not make unimaginative. Or weak

Doing the same job since the beginning of time would probably bore anything with any imagination.

Omnipotent Definition Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

Originally posted by golem370
Omnipotent Definition Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

yes indeed, doesn't say they don't get bored

Lucifer got bored doing the hard work in hell, Living Tribuanal on the other hand does as his told always, he is therefore certainly less confident in his power to disagree with his God.

Well I am a atheist so I believe in no god. But I believe that being bored is a weakness. So if he gets bored he is not in-fact Omnipotent

Originally posted by golem370
Well I am a atheist so I believe in no god. But I believe that being bored is a weakness.

Not really it tells you, you can aspire to better usually. Lucifer wanted to be the top dog and was cast down for it, LT is happy as number 2.

I'm also an atheist

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Not really it tells you, you can aspire to better usually. Lucifer wanted to be the top dog and was cast down for it, LT is happy as number 2.

I'm also an atheist

Surely one could Will away thier boredom ?

His number to is still higher then playing a piano in a bar. Living Tribunal as far as Marvel is concerned is there God. Until this so-called Supreme Being arrives and says no to that . He is over all of Marvels countless Universes.

Originally posted by yahman
Surely one could Will away thier boredom ?

Lucifer aspires, aspiration nescesitates boredom

Originally posted by golem370
His number to is still higher then playing a piano in a bar. Living Tribunal as far as Marvel is concerned is there God. Until this so-called Supreme Being arrives and says no to that . He is over all of Marvels countless Universes.

you misunderstand the purpose of the Lucifer book and what it aspires to show

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Lucifer aspires, aspiration nescesitates boredom [/QUOTE

Yes i don't dount that

But you have avoided my question ? maybe not purposely. Or am i missing something ?

I never read it. But what I am trying to say is there is noway of telling who in fact is more Powerful. But from what I have seen there is no indication that Lucifer is more powerful.

Originally posted by yahman
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Lucifer aspires, aspiration nescesitates boredom

your missing he doesn't want to, he wants to be bored because it lets him know he could be more, or less - it makes him understandable and allows the exploration of his psyche and the issues explored within Lucifer. It means a character - something LT does not really have.

Originally posted by golem370
I never read it. But what I am trying to say is there is noway of telling who in fact is more Powerful. But from what I have seen there is no indication that Lucifer is more powerful. I agree and have always said comparing top cosmics is pointless for this reason, with this sort of power, who can you say is greater.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
you misunderstand the purpose of the Lucifer book and what it aspires to show

Yes but that is one of the problems i have with it... we are trying to write about characters we shouldn't have any comprehension of. The whole thing is a personfication (maybe the wrong word) of lucifer which makes it invalid.

Originally posted by yahman
Yes but that is one of the problems i have with it... we are trying to write about characters we shouldn't have any comprehension of. The whole thing is a personfication (maybe the wrong word) of lucifer which makes it invalid.

the judeo/ christian religion has always done this with Lucifer its an extension of the religion really

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
the judeo/ christian religion has always done this with Lucifer its an extension of the religion really

From what i know of the bible, there is little on the subject. Most of what generally accepted is based on Catholicisms interpretations. I know the Lucifer from the bible had very little, in the way of power. Its limited to shape shifting, and the ability to tempt all. Except for Jesus of course.

Well the way I see it is everything is part of nature even misguided beliefs in god. My brother taut me alot about Atheism and I am sad to say I forget alot of what he says. But I understand alot better now about religion and atheism

Originally posted by yahman
From what i know of the bible, there is little on the subject. Most of what generally accepted is based on Catholicisms interpretations. I know the Lucifer from the bible had very little, in the way of power. Its limited to shape shifting, and the ability to tempt all. Except for Jesus of course.

Its not all the bible Lucifer Jewish Source texts etc, are the origin of Morningstar. The Koran like the new testament explores the Devils role, revalations indicates his power This idea is just expanded into the universe rather than just the earth in comics.

ok question lucifer stood at ground zero of the demiurgic explosion, one that could destroy an entire multiverse and didnt get a tan, tribunal was utterly destroyed by the heart of the universe as it destroyed the multiverse..........tribunal is the protector of the single marvel multiverse and hence does not have enough power as the marvel multiverse{a proven fact due to his destruction with the heart of the universe} lucifer has created one multiverse single handedly, has 50%of the power to CREATE a multiverse at any given damn time without even thinking about it and can kill himself at any time to destroy and/or create an entire multiverse{and he will be reborn intantaneously because death has no domain over him} and has also created more than one multiverses,NOW wouldnt that suggest quite simply to every1 that lucifer is above even the heart of the universe let alone the puny tribunal?

Without Michale help, Lucifer can't create Universe. And you do realise that Living Tribual is also son of God.
They are equal.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ok question lucifer stood at ground zero of the demiurgic explosion, one that could destroy an entire multiverse and didnt get a tan, tribunal was utterly destroyed by the heart of the universe as it destroyed the multiverse..........tribunal is the protector of the single marvel multiverse and hence does not have enough power as the marvel multiverse{a proven fact due to his destruction with the heart of the universe} lucifer has created one multiverse single handedly, has 50%of the power to CREATE a multiverse at any given damn time without even thinking about it and can kill himself at any time to destroy and/or create an entire multiverse{and he will be reborn intantaneously because death has no domain over him} and has also created more than one multiverses,NOW wouldnt that suggest quite simply to every1 that lucifer is above even the heart of the universe let alone the puny tribunal?

Heart of the Univeres was God power, Lucifer would also go down extremely easily. Heart of the Universe only showed God power, no matter how powerful being aka. Living Triubunal, will go against God power, will be insect againt God power, so Lucifer would be also shown as insect against HOTU.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Without Michale help, Lucifer can't create Universe. And you do realise that Living Tribual is also son of God.
They are equal.



Heart of the Univeres was God power, Lucifer would also go down extremely easily. Heart of the Universe only showed God power, no matter how powerful being aka. Living Triubunal, will go against God power, will be insect againt God power, so Lucifer would be also shown as insect against HOTU.

These trinkets are the other problem I have with marvel, why does god need trinkets

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ok question lucifer stood at ground zero of the demiurgic explosion, one that could destroy an entire multiverse and didnt get a tan, tribunal was utterly destroyed by the heart of the universe as it destroyed the multiverse..........tribunal is the protector of the single marvel multiverse and hence does not have enough power as the marvel multiverse{a proven fact due to his destruction with the heart of the universe} lucifer has created one multiverse single handedly, has 50%of the power to CREATE a multiverse at any given damn time without even thinking about it and can kill himself at any time to destroy and/or create an entire multiverse{and he will be reborn intantaneously because death has no domain over him} and has also created more than one multiverses,NOW wouldnt that suggest quite simply to every1 that lucifer is above even the heart of the universe let alone the puny tribunal?

Why are you stating this rubbish once again. Leon as a fan of the Lucifer comics i have already told you this isnt true. You obviously do not read the comics and are going by hearsay and unofficial websites. Lucifer created a UNIVERSE for the Presence and for himself and both required the aid of Michael. Michael is the matter provider, Lucifer is the shaper. They simply cannot make a universe on their own.

Lucifer killing himself will not result in the creation of a universe let alone a multiverse. Killing Michael however will result in a explosion of the demiurgic energies Yahweh gave to him which of course act as the building blocks to create a universe. Lucifer has gods will as his given power.

I spent last night gathering all appropriate scans. Speak of this rubbish again and i will post them.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why are you stating this rubbish once again. Leon as a fan of the Lucifer comics i have already told you this isnt true. You obviously do not read the comics and are going by hearsay and unofficial websites. Lucifer created a UNIVERSE for the Presence and for himself and both required the aid of Michael. Michael is the matter provider, Lucifer is the shaper. They simply cannot make a universe on their own.

Lucifer killing himself will not result in the creation of a universe let alone a multiverse. Killing Michael however will result in a explosion of the demiurgic energies Yahweh gave to him which of course act as the building blocks to create a universe. Lucifer has gods will as his given power.

I spent last night gathering all appropriate scans. Speak of this rubbish again and i will post them.


are u a pathological liar galactic storm?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
are u a pathological liar galactic storm?

Says the boy who lies about having read comics in an attempt to win debates. You're no Lucifer fan Leon. Youre postst have made that quite apparrent.

no lucifer fan you say? i think he is the coolest sharacter in comics rigtht now!!!!!!!!!! both marvel or dc, i have read many lucifer comics, sandman, constantine, preacher comics among others, {its definately higher than you who after ALL HIS READINGS seems to think that lucifer can not even create a single universe without micheal, which is by far the most ridiculous thing ive heard out of ur mouth after ur definition of the pheonix force,} and btw, galactic storm, havent you been humiliated enough for one week, do you get off on humiliation or sumthin cause i can provide a lot more if you want.

and btw, i would love to see those scans{that you have apparently prepared} that show lucifer and micheal together creating nuthing more than a universe and where lucifer is god's servant and will{another ridiculous thing as lucifer is THE DEVIL the opposite of god's will and power.

The ruler of Hell isn't the opposite of God in DC.

GS is right, when Lucifer killed Michael he took him into the Void where the demiurgic power wouldn't destroy the original multiverse. Once Michael was dead (and the demiurgic power created matter) Lucifer used his own power to create a new multiverse seperate from God's.

Originally posted by Madguitarist
The ruler of Hell isn't the opposite of God in DC.

GS is right, when Lucifer killed Michael he took him into the Void where the demiurgic power wouldn't destroy the original multiverse. Once Michael was dead (and the demiurgic power created matter) Lucifer used his own power to create a new multiverse seperate from God's.

a whole multiverse "seperate from Gods", interesting........

seperate from Gods hmmmm................

I see...........

Seperate from Gods.............

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and btw, i would love to see those scans{that you have apparently prepared} that show lucifer and micheal together creating nuthing more than a universe and where lucifer is god's servant and will{another ridiculous thing as lucifer is THE DEVIL the opposite of god's will and power.

You're definition of Lucifer there shows your lack of understanding of the comics you claim to be a fan of. You seem to have comic book Lucifer mixed up with both your ideas of the real world Devil and the comics The Great Evil Beast.

Here are the scans that support Lucifer and Michael both being required for the formation of a universe:

If Lucifer could make a univeres on his own then why would he need to make to Michael a proposition? Hmmmm:

http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/3302/lucifer13p139qe.jpg

One of the host talks of how the demiurgic explosion resultant from killing Michael would destroy the worlds. Nothing is mentioned of a multiverse:

http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/5044/lucifer13p166ar.jpg

Michael talks of how Lucifer has taken him outside of Presences creation (which i will later prove to be a universe):

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7606/lucifer13p171sx.jpg

The resultant explosion leaves the Presences universe intact proving that the release of Michaels demiurgic energies is enough to destroy a universe. However it lays down the demiurgic matter which are the building blocks for a new creation:

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6367/lucifer13p18196qv.jpg

If the explosion was multiversal it would have taken out Presences universe as well. But as you can see it didnt as Michael leaves the void to fly back to it leaving Lucifer to shape the demiurgic matter left into his own universe:

http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/7673/lucifer13p203qa.jpg

Here Lucifer is shaping the demiurgic matter he required from Michael to create his own UNIVERSE. The captions state he is making his own UNIVERSE:

http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/6181/lucifer16p041wc.jpg

Lucifer refers to the gateway he made to his own creation as a "hole in the universe" . That confirms that Presences creation is a universe:

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/5404/lucifer20p165xk.jpg

He then says here that god has no authority in his UNIVERSE:

http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/3177/lucifer20p174wa.jpg

A recap in issue 21 states quite clearly only Gods demiurgic power can bring about the creation of a universe and also that those powers were bestowed by God to MICHAEL:

http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/5456/lucifer21p032mj.jpg

Here Meleos confirms that while Michael was given the demiurgic power, Lucifer was given gods will:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/8329/lucifer25p151vl.jpg

The next issue Meleos again says that God out of everything made Lucifer and Michael first and again that Michael had the demiurgic power and Lucifer gods will:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/729/lucifer26p059oy.jpg

Later in the issue in a conversation with Lucifer, Death again confirms that the Presences creation is indeed a universe:

http://img308.imageshack.us/img308/8531/lucifer26p117qt.jpg

The creation of a universe requires both Michael and Lucifer. Michael provides the matter and life essence whilst Lucifer shapes that into planets , stars, galaxies etc.

Lucifers death would not result in a demiurgic explosion because that is not the power he was given by god. His brother was.

Michaels demiurgic explosion resulted in a universe destroying blast not a multiversal one. It lays down the building blocks for a new creation.

The Presences creation is a universe as is Lucifers.

Indeed a universe created external to God, hmmmmm

External to god

Keep the faith, So much for the white Crown Phoenix is a tool Phoenix works within Gods multiverse

Lucifer is not Lucifer went outside it

Point made, again By GS for me

Stay Whirly

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Indeed a universe created external to God, hmmmmm

External to god

Keep the faith, So much for the white Crown Phoenix is a tool Phoenix works within Gods multiverse

Lucifer is not Lucifer went outside it

Point made, again By GS for me

Stay Whirly

As ive proved it was a universe made external to Dc gods universe.

In comic book battles as per forum rules the characters are both at the peak of their powers and fighting in conditions where their powers operate as normal so im sorry to dismiss your feeble attempt to make a point out of my post. You've run out of steam old man.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As ive proved it was a universe made external to Dc gods universe.

In comic book battles as per forum rules the characters are both at the peak of their powers and fighting in conditions where their powers operate as normal so im sorry to dismiss your feeble attempt to make a point out of my post. You've run out of steam old man. But then in Spectre, the latest series, you realise that Hell and Satan are actually just the way you percieve your own afterlife should be. And that each Heaven and Hell are interweaving but also personal to yourself... so in essence-- he wouldn't need Micheal, he IS Micheal, Is the Presence..

Originally posted by Juntai
But then in Spectre, the latest series, you realise that Hell and Satan are actually just the way you percieve your own afterlife should be. And that each Heaven and Hell are interweaving but also personal to yourself... so in essence-- he wouldn't need Micheal, he IS Micheal, Is the Presence..

That doesnt mean that there is no Lucifer and Michael as entities and it certainly doesnt mean that they are one and the same. That was a bit of a stretch Juntai. Have a read of Lucifer before you try to apply your theories to it. In the same way Galactus is inetrpreted differently to different races of people as shown in StormBreaker however there is still a world devouring entity behind each races interpretation of the threat.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That doesnt mean that there is no Lucifer and Michael as entities and it certainly doesnt mean that they are one and the same. That was a bit of a stretch Juntai. Have a read of Lucifer before you try to apply your theories to it. In the same way Galactus is inetrpreted differently to different races of people as shown in StormBreaker however there is still a world devouring entity behind each races interpretation of the threat. Right, just as Spectre is the face of god to all races across the universe..

However, by figuring out what I explained earlier is how Abin Sur escaped Hell's torment... by realising he wasn't in it at all, and that it and Satan are synominous with Heaven and God..and it's all interpretation of what your own soul believes it deserves. It is the Presence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The creation of a universe requires both Michael and Lucifer. Michael provides the matter and life essence whilst Lucifer shapes that into planets , stars, galaxies etc.

Lucifers death would not result in a demiurgic explosion because that is not the power he was given by god. His brother was.

Michaels demiurgic explosion resulted in a universe destroying blast not a multiversal one. It lays down the building blocks for a new creation.

The Presences creation is a universe as is Lucifers.


If Michael was killed in the Presence's multiverse then it would have destroyed all of existence everywhere, that's why Amenadiel and the rest of the angels didn't attack Lucifer and allowed him to go into the void. They knew if they killed Michael by accident then it was all over.

Michael and Lucifer were also the ones who created the first Multiverse after being created by God.

Here's something from another site that pretty much sums it up:

"Amenadiel took the armies of heaven under his command and attacked Lucifer, to close down the gate to the void. But Lucifer outsmarted them too, he put a monster he had recently hired on the other side to eat anyone who dared cross the gate to the void, and he also rescued his brother Michael from Sandalphon, another rebellious angel. Michael has the demiurgic power, if he dies, the power explodes and wipes out the entire multiverse. No angel dared to attack Lucifer while he carried Michael's body, and Lucifer had promised Michael, that he would kill him, which was the only way to heal Michael, because it would allow him to resurrect himself without all the scars Sandalphon gave him. Amenadiel had two choices, let Lucifer kill Michael in creation and destroy everything, or let Lucifer keep the gate and kill Michael in the void.

Lucifer took Michael into the void and killed him, the demiurgic power created matter in the void, like it did when it created the original multiverse. Lucifer later shaped the matter into a new multiverse, creating worlds and galaxies."

Good scans btw.

Originally posted by Juntai
Right, just as Spectre is the face of god to all races across the universe..

However, by figuring out what I explained earlier is how Abin Sur escaped Hell's torment... by realising he wasn't in it at all, and that it and Satan are synominous with Heaven and God..and it's all interpretation of what your own soul believes it deserves. It is the Presence.

That writers interpretation of hell doesnt dictate what hell is in the Dc universe. To my knowledge thats the first time that hell has been treated in that manner and until it is supported by other sources cannot be taken to represent Dc's take on hell and Satan.

In the Lucifer comics for example Lucifer and Michael are not one and the same as the Presence. They are his creations and potential successors. If they were one and the same then Yahwehs departure wouldnt be causing the problems it currently is within the Lucifer title.

Originally posted by Madguitarist
If Michael was killed in the Presence's multiverse then it would have destroyed all of existence everywhere, that's why Amenadiel and the rest of the angels didn't attack Lucifer and allowed him to go into the void. They knew if they killed Michael by accident then it was all over.

Michael and Lucifer were also the ones who created the first Multiverse after being created by God.

Here's something from another site that pretty much sums it up:

"Amenadiel took the armies of heaven under his command and attacked Lucifer, to close down the gate to the void. But Lucifer outsmarted them too, he put a monster he had recently hired on the other side to eat anyone who dared cross the gate to the void, and he also rescued his brother Michael from Sandalphon, another rebellious angel. Michael has the demiurgic power, if he dies, the power explodes and wipes out the entire multiverse. No angel dared to attack Lucifer while he carried Michael's body, and Lucifer had promised Michael, that he would kill him, which was the only way to heal Michael, because it would allow him to resurrect himself without all the scars Sandalphon gave him. Amenadiel had two choices, let Lucifer kill Michael in creation and destroy everything, or let Lucifer keep the gate and kill Michael in the void.

Lucifer took Michael into the void and killed him, the demiurgic power created matter in the void, like it did when it created the original multiverse. Lucifer later shaped the matter into a new multiverse, creating worlds and galaxies."

Good scans btw.

Thanks for your input much appreciated, but as you can see from the scans themselves there is no multiverse in terms of the Lucifer title. It is very much a universe. That was the whole point of me posting those scans as they prove that point.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thanks for your input much appreciated, but as you can see from the scans themselves there is no multiverse in terms of the Lucifer title. It is very much a universe. That was the whole point of me posting those scans as they prove that point.

again apples and oranges, by GS's reasoning the Christian god is now less powerful than his beloved Phoenix.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
again apples and oranges, by GS's reasoning the Christian god is now less powerful than his beloved Phoenix.

Not at all. Your lack of understanding makes you come to such ridiculous conclusions on my posts. As a long time comic book reader you should be able to see just why im totally correct in saying that they only created a universe without that fact having any repercussions on the hierarchy. Think about it old man.

They created a Universe external to god and gods will - Phoenix can't do that

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
They created a Universe external to god and gods will - Phoenix can't do that

Phoenix cant do that or chooses not to do that because she has no personal reasons to do so? Michael never went and made his own universe that doesnt make him any less important than Lucifer. We know she certainly has the power to do so alone. That isnt in debate. Also Jeans actions in New Xmen 154 show you whilst she works for the Crown she is certainly not a mindless puppet who is restricted to doing only what the Crown instructs her to do. Wrong again old man

Originally posted by leonheartmm
are u a pathological liar galactic storm?

Actully it's true what GalacticStorm has said.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{another ridiculous thing as lucifer is THE DEVIL the opposite of god's will and power.

No, that is like saying Lucifer is equal to GOd, which is not.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Actully it's true what GalacticStorm has said.

Im starting to like you more and more XP.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix cant do that or chooses not to do that because she has no personal reasons to do so? Michael never went and made his own universe that doesnt make him any less important than Lucifer. We know she certainly has the power to do so alone. That isnt in debate. Also Jeans actions in New Xmen 154 show you whilst she works for the Crown she is certainly not a mindless puppet who is restricted to doing only what the Crown instructs her to do. Wrong again old man

Then she doesn't weild gods power if she can go against it

I hold to the idea that if anything at all is saved in any way, it was the will of the presence. Regardless of how personal it may seem. Otherwise it would not be saved. Do you have a scan of her going against the presence's will? Because if she's an aspect of the divine, then she must adhere to it's rules.

Originally posted by Juntai
I hold to the idea that if anything at all is saved in any way, it was the will of the presence. Regardless of how personal it may seem. Otherwise it would not be saved. Do you have a scan of her going against the presence's will? Because if she's an aspect of the divine, then she must adhere to it's rules.

my point exactly phoenix is a tool, nothing on her own really

All I see Phoenix alone can do what Lucifer can't do. To create everything, something Lucifer can't. Phoenix craetion power is beyond Lucifer=fact.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Then she doesn't weild gods power if she can go against it

By saving the universe of her origin how is Jean going against gods power? The Crown instructs her to manifest in creation to carry out her phoenix work. She did that by ridding creation of Sublime and amputating that future from the timeline. However that resulted in the 616 universe becoming an orphan universe i.e it had broken away from the rest of creation as a result of that work however that happening to it wasnt the intention of the crown. It was just an unfortunate consequence.

Because that was her native universe Jean wanted to save it and therefore healed it in the crown and reversed time to prevent that future from occuring. She did that for personal reasons, however she wasnt going against the Crown because she had completed her phoenix work and her personal actions didnt interfere with it. Ok?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By saving the universe of her origin how is Jean going against gods power. The Crown instructs her to manifest in creation to carry out her phoenix work. She did that by ridding creation of Sublime and amputating that future from the timeline. However that resulted in the 616 universe becoming an orphan universe i.e it had broken away from the rest of creation as a result of that wrok however that happening to it wasnt the intention of the crown. It was just an unfortunate consequence.

Because that was her native universe Jean wanted to save it and therefore healed it in the crown and reversed time to prevent that future from occuring. She did that for personal reasons, however she wasnt going against the Crown because she had completed her phoenix work and her personal actions didnt interfere with it. Ok? Are saying that the presence is fallible?

Originally posted by Juntai
Are saying that the presence is fallible?

How you came to that conclusion from reading my post i really dont know. You obviously dont read Marvel which is fair enough but to debate Marvel you really need to give it a go. For you to understand what im going on about, try reading New Xmen.

What matters to the Crown is that the cycle of creation continues. The fate of a single universe is inconsequential as if you know anything of the omega point theory a destroyed universe can be brought back into existence in the end anyway.

However Jean for personal reasons wanted to save the 616 universe and so she did so. That didnt interfere with her Crown work however its a demonstration of how she can act outside of her instructions from the Crown, as long as her phoenix work is complete and not interfered with by her actions.

Don't try to make your bad writing seem like my neivity. It's two very different things. You said: "however that happening to it wasnt the intention of the crown. It was just an unfortunate consequence."

This to me shows you saying that the presence is fallible.
Everything is the intention of the presence.

Originally posted by Juntai
Don't try to make your bad writing seem like my neivity. It's two very different things. You said: "however that happening to it wasnt the intention of the crown. It was just an unfortunate consequence."

This to me shows you saying that the presence is fallible.
Everything is the intention of the presence.

If you'd read my post properly you'd see that by the omega point theory which Grant Morrison incorporated into the Phoenix concept, that universe would be born again at the end of creation anyway. So its end now was irrelevant. Hence the reason why the other phoenixes said to Jean they wouldnt bother. However Jean got all sentimental because it was her own universe and she decided to heal it there and then anyway. Ok?

But similar to The Spectre, she is still bound by the will of the presence, otherwise the presence would be fallible, correct?

Originally posted by Juntai
But similar to The Spectre, she is still bound by the will of the presence, otherwise the presence would be fallible, correct?

If you read Lucifer then you'll find out that despite all of his betrayals all of his actions were foreseen and were actually in accordance with the will of the Presence. Check out issues 38 to 40 for further information.

I see the point youre trying to make, in fact i saw it about half an hour ago. However in light of what i have just told you, it is irrelevant. As long as Jean doesnt interfere with the phoenix work which she is commisioned to do by the Crown then she can very act of her own volition.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you read Lucifer then you'll find out that despite all of his betrayals all of his actions were foreseen and were actually in accordance with the will of the Presence. Check out issues 38 to 40 for further information.

I see the point youre trying to make, in fact i saw it about half an hour ago. However in light of what i have just told you, it is irrelevant. As long as Jean doesnt interfere with the phoenix work which she is commisioned to do by the Crown then she can very act of her own volition. And everything is the will of the will of the presence.

You also just described The Spectre.

Originally posted by Juntai
You also just described The Spectre.

Then so be it. But as ive told you Lucifer is subject to the Presences will also. As is made quite clear in the comic. All of his actions were cool with Presence. When Lucifer did something which the Presence didnt agree with (the formation of his own universe) the presence didnt act as stated in Lucifer 21 because as foreseen by the Presence, Lucifers actions were to result in the downfall of him and his work anyway. Therefore just like Jean or the Spectre as long as Lucifer acts in accordance with the will of God everythings fine. When Lucifer strays however he is dealt with.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Then so be it. But as ive told you Lucifer is subject to the Presences will also. As is made quite clear in the comic. All of his actions were cool with Presence. When Lucifer did something which the Presence didnt agree with (the formation of his own universe) the presence didnt act as stated in Lucifer 21 because as foreseen by the Presence, Lucifers actions were to result in the downfall of him and his work anyway. Therefore just like Jean or the Spectre as long as Lucifer acts in accordance with the will of God everythings fine. When Lucifer strays however he is dealt with.

The goal posts move again more hilarious evasion

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
The goal posts move again more hilarious evasion

I accepted what Juntai was saying just not in the way he wanted me to and then i also showed that Phoenix being in such a position is not such a bad thing by demonstrating how other highly respected beings share a similar fate. No goal post moving old man. Thats your expertise.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I accepted what Juntai was saying just not in the way he wanted me to and then i also showed that Phoenix being in such a position is not such a bad thing by demonstrating how other highly respected beings share a similar fate. No goal post moving old man. Thats your expertise.


So Phoenix has operated outside its leaders multiverse, is that what your saying now

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
So Phoenix has operated outside its leaders multiverse, is that what your saying now

Follow the chain of thought old man.

Lucifer creating a universe beyond the Presences was acting outside of the Presences orders as made quite clear in issue 21 if it wasnt for the fact that Lucifers actions were going to result in his and his universes downfall anyway then the Presence would have intervened and Lucifer would have been dealt with.

Ive shown you that Jean can act outside of the Crowns instructions to do what she wishes as long as she doesnt interfere with the Crowns work. Jean as the White Crown phoenix can make universes on her own and exists outside of creation as standard. So your point falls flat on its face im afraid.

Jean, Lucifer or Michael can act outside of their masters plans and exercise their god given power for personal ends as long as their plans dont interfere with their masters great plans.

i have to say this:

whirly, you suck. purposeful misinterpretation, misdirection, and the ability to argue fallaciously and insult people without ever actually breaking rules.

by the way, LT would at worst stalemate.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
i have to say this:

whirly, you suck. purposeful misinterpretation, misdirection, and the ability to argue fallaciously and insult people without ever actually breaking rules.

by the way, LT would at worst stalemate.

prove it "peepee"

Your opinions on the Phopenix are well documented you subscribe to the cult of the Phoenix, sorry I challenge your strongly held belief

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
i have to say this:

whirly, you suck. purposeful misinterpretation, misdirection, and the ability to argue fallaciously and insult people without ever actually breaking rules.

by the way, LT would at worst stalemate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


yes another of the "enlightened" pro Phoenix posters resorts to personal abuse

The worlds not flat

frankly i don't care. if phoenix lost to galactus in some cosmic battle next month, i wouldn't call PIS or anything of the sort. i just think that the arguments that GS has made, though not concrete proof, make a helluva lot of sense. too much sense to ignore.

Thank you Hooray. Some people are just to full of pride to admit theres even a teensy weeny possibility that i could be right because of course that would mean that he is WRONG.

Let it go Whirly mate. Just a bit of fun on a comic book forum.

We are mates arent we?

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
frankly i don't care. if phoenix lost to galactus in some cosmic battle next month, i wouldn't call PIS or anything of the sort. i just think that the arguments that GS has made, though not concrete proof, make a helluva lot of sense. too much sense to ignore.

So you believe you can argue that the Phoenix is more powerful than Solar or Lucifer or the Monitor or anyone ffrom a different universe with comparable feets because GS says so, and that gives you the right to claim I "suck" etc

You stand revealed

And GS beyond a few people like peepee and Xplosive the only one you prove anything to is yourself, the unenlightened members rock on

Yes we are mates GS which is why unlike the rest of you I never resort to verbal abuse as peepee himself said whilst lowering himself to breaking forum rules

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
So you believe you can argue that the Phoenix is more powerful than Solar or Lucifer or the Monitor or anyone ffrom a different universe with comparable feets because GS says so, and that gives you the right to claim I "suck" etc

You stad revealed

Has it occurred to you that he might have actually read the comics i refer to in my posts?

I dont just make up what i say mate because that would be really silly wouldnt it

i wouldn't say that phoenix is more powerful than lucifer, but yep, i do think that you could make a strong case against monitor/anti-monitor and solar.

whirly, for somebody so into "reading between the lines" (ie hearing what you want to hear), i find it hard to believe that you need proof any more blatant that what's given in the issues GS recommends.

just because they don't say that phoenix is highest in creation blah blah blah doesn't mean it's not strongly implied.

all those negatives made my head spin.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
So you believe you can argue that the Phoenix is more powerful than Solar or Lucifer or the Monitor or anyone ffrom a different universe with comparable feets because GS says so, and that gives you the right to claim I "suck" etc

You stand revealed

And GS beyond a few people like peepee and Xplosive the only one you prove anything to is yourself, the unenlightened members rock on

The specific hierarchy thread disagrees with you im afraid. That and a pretty reliable resource called a comic

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
i wouldn't say that phoenix is more powerful than lucifer, but yep, i do think that you could make a strong case against monitor/anti-monitor and solar.

whirly, for somebody so into "reading between the lines" (ie hearing what you want to hear), i find it hard to believe that you need proof any more blatant that what's given in the issues GS recommends.

just because they don't say that phoenix is highest in creation blah blah blah doesn't mean it's not strongly implied.

all those negatives made my head spin.

thats fair, but I disagree - on another note why resort to the personal abuse stuff, its a little juvenile.

basically, i woke up on the wrong side of a vomit splattered, smoke filled, passed-out friends room this morning. normally i find you hilarious, whirly, but for some reason this thread really chapped my ass.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
thats fair, but I disagree - on another note why resort to the personal abuse stuff, its a little juvenile.

I guess your manner just brings out the best/worst in people

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The specific hierarchy thread disagrees with you im afraid. That and a pretty reliable resource called a comic

posted by the pro Phoenix lobby if you go to many other comic forums they will disagree, only a few have posted on that as most like me find marvel cosmics hilarious.

Marvel doesn't even understand Omega point yet tries to say thats what Phoenix is based on - drivel.

As many people have posted on these three threads disagreeing with it today

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I guess your manner just brings out the best/worst in people

no I could play the herd game if I wanted, but it proves nothing beyond you need others help

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
posted by the pro Phoenix lobby if you go to many other comic forums they will disagree, only a few have posted on that as most like me find marvel cosmics hilarious.

Marvel doesn't even understand Omega point yet tries to say thats what Phoenix is based on - drivel.

Doesnt matter if you dislike the concept of Phoenix or Marvels interpretation of the Omega point theory. All of that is completely irrelevant. A little objectivity would help in debates.

Ive yet to see that from you. Its not hard is it?

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
basically, i woke up on the wrong side of a vomit splattered, smoke filled, passed-out friends room this morning. normally i find you hilarious, whirly, but for some reason this thread really chapped my ass.

I see, well its a kind of excuse I suppose...........

I guess the reason is you like Phoenix, thats ok mate

I used to like Phoenix, when Marvel was written well

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
no I could play the herd game if I wanted, but it proves nothing beyond you need others help

To do what mate? I debate, lay down the facts and people pick sides. Im just happy with the people who have been objective and opened their minds to the phoenix concept

meh, like i said, i think phoenix is actually pretty boring. not even in my top 50 characters. it's just i think phoenix was intended to be top tier in power.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
meh, like i said, i think phoenix is actually pretty boring. not even in my top 50 characters. it's just i think phoenix was intended to be top tier in power.

but not LT top tier, but somehow GS got a LT v Lucifer thread onto Phoenix respect the filibustering

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
meh, like i said, i think phoenix is actually pretty boring. not even in my top 50 characters. it's just i think phoenix was intended to be top tier in power.

There you go Whirly. Fine example of objectivity. Not the biggest fan of the concept however what he's picked up from debates and comic books he uses to decide that phoenix should be at the upper reaches of the hierarchy as opposed to personal feelings on the concept and its execution.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There you go Whirly. Fine example of objectivity. Not the biggest fan of the concept however what he's picked up from debates and comic books he uses to decide that phoenix should be at the upper reaches of the hierarchy as opposed to personal feelings on the concept and its execution.

Indeed then you can accept given all the conflicting evidence not least from you

Many myself included whilst agreeing Phoenix is a cosmic do not see it as much more than a tool

being a tool (he he, he he) doesn't necessarily have an impact on your power level.

for instance, if i had the choice to have the power of a tesla coil or mister tesla himself, which do you think i'd pick? the tesla coil is but his creation, his tool, and yet it would still fry the shit out of him.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
being a tool (he he, he he) doesn't necessarily have an impact on your power level.

toolishness affects autonomy Which in turn affects power

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
but not LT top tier, but somehow GS got a LT v Lucifer thread onto Phoenix respect the filibustering

I dont seem to recall being the one to bring phoenix into this debate. Lets investigate. Hmmmmmm:

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Indeed a universe created external to God, hmmmmm

External to god

Keep the faith, So much for the white Crown Phoenix is a tool Phoenix works within Gods multiverse

Lucifer is not Lucifer went outside it

Point made, again By GS for me

Stay Whirly

Hooray saw your game and called you out for it. You're not as subtle as you'd like to believe

Xmen Forever shows that the Phoenix Power is enough to bring LT to his knees as depicted on various occassions throughout the series. New Xmen went on to confirm Chris Claremonts suggestions from the 80's that the Phoenix is linked to the Crown. Ok?

i disagree. autonomy affects initiative.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
i disagree. autonomy affects initiative.

Autonomy means you no longer need initiative as you make the rules

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont seem to recall being the one to bring phoenix into this debate. Lets investigate. Hmmmmmm:



Hooray saw your game and called you out for it. You're not as subtle as you'd like to believe

Xmen Forever shows that the Phoenix Power is enough to bring LT to his knees as depicted on various occassions throughout the series. New Xmen went on to confirm Chris Claremonts suggestions from the 80's that the Phoenix is linked to the Crown. Ok?

What game you mentioned Phoenix first

which, still, has no intrinsic effect on power

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
which, still, has no intrinsic effect on power

I'll ask you a the same thing I ask GS peepee Who has Phoenix beaten above herald level, what feet has Phoenix done which is beyond creating and repairing a universe, 2 things Solar has definately done.

you know very well that's all, though weakling rachel summers did put galactus on his ass.

how about i ask you something? who has ever beaten phoenix (excluding retcon period)?

just because phoenix hasn't gotten in to many fights doesn't mean it can't/doesn't have >than eternity power.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
you know very well that's all, though weakling rachel summers did put galactus on his ass.

how about i ask you something? who has ever beaten phoenix (excluding retcon period)?

just because phoenix hasn't gotten in to many fights doesn't mean it can't/doesn't have >than eternity power.

I agree it doesn't

but you have to concede it doesn't mean it does the rest from GS is pure supposition, as is mine, and that is the point GS does not concede.

Apples and Oranges

Galactus got straight back up by the way

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I'll ask you a the same thing I ask GS peepee Who has Phoenix beaten above herald level, what feet has Phoenix done which is beyond creating and repairing a universe, 2 things Solar has definately done.

Who has the L.T. ever beaten ?

well he has beaten THanos with IG.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I agree it doesn't

but you have to concede it doesn't mean it does the rest from GS is pure supposition, as is mine, and that is the point GS does not concede.

Apples and Oranges

Galactus got straight back up by the way

In terms of a fight the highest ranking person Phoenix has been shown beating is Galactus. However her feats both stated and shown in the comics mark her out to be a far higher being and none of it i ssupposition. Xmen Adventures 12 (which was made canon apparrently as its events were featured in Galactus' F4 Handbook 2005 bio) showed Phoenix was responsible for the creation of Galactus, Xmen Forever explicitly states and shows that Phoenix is the force responsible for the creation of the abstracts and it is the force that ends creation in the natural scheme of things. It also explicitly states that the abstracts and Galactus are merely the evolved humanity of previous universes ended by Phoenix and that our universes abstracts will in turn be surpassed and replaced as humanity evolves. The comic states that Phoenix is the only constant throughout creation and it shows that by tapping into the full power of the phoenix you will control creation and be supreme over all including LT . That is shown in the comic and that is where the Phoenix retcon of 86 was abolished. Thats what im trying to get into your head mate. Its actually shown and stated. Theres no assumption in all of what ive said. Just cold, hard comic book fact.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In terms of a fight Phoenix the highest ranking person Phoenix has been shown beating is Galactus. However her feats both stated and shown in the comics mark her out to be a far higher being and none of it i ssupposition. Xmen Adventures 12 (which was made canon apparrently as its events were featured in Galactus' F4 Handbook 2005 bio) showed Phoenix was responsible for the creation of Galactus, Xmen Forever explicitly states and shows that Phoenix is the force responsible for the creation of the abstracts and it is the force that ends creation in the natural scheme of things. It also explicitly states that the abstracts and Galactus are merely the evolved humanity of previous universes ended by Phoenix and that our universes abstracts will in turn be surpassed and replaced as humanity evolves. The comic states that Phoenix is the only constant throughout creation and it shows that by tapping into the full power of the phoenix you will control creation and be supreme over all including LT . That is shown in the comic and that is where the Phoenix retcon of 86 was abolished. Thats what im trying to get into your head mate. Its actually shown and stated. Theres no assumption in all of what ive said. Just cold, hard comic book fact.


'Xmen Adventures 12 (which was made canon apparrently as its events were featured in Galactus' F4 Handbook 2005 bio) showed Phoenix was responsible for the creation of Galactus,'

How ?

'Xmen Forever explicitly states and shows that Phoenix is the force responsible for the creation of the abstracts and it is the force that ends creation in the natural scheme of things. It also explicitly states that the abstracts and Galactus are merely the evolved humanity of previous universes ended by Phoenix and that our universes abstracts will in turn be surpassed and replaced as humanity evolves. The comic states that Phoenix is the only constant throughout creation and it shows that by tapping into the full power of the phoenix you will control creation and be supreme over all including LT .'

How .... Im really interested ? please ?

"That is shown in the comic and that is where the Phoenix retcon of 86 was abolished."

What was this ?

Originally posted by Superherovandal
well he has beaten THanos with IG.

Didn't he undo what was done by Thanos with the I.G. ?

Originally posted by yahman
'Xmen Adventures 12 (which was made canon apparrently as its events were featured in Galactus' F4 Handbook 2005 bio) showed Phoenix was responsible for the creation of Galactus,'

How ?

'Xmen Forever explicitly states and shows that Phoenix is the force responsible for the creation of the abstracts and it is the force that ends creation in the natural scheme of things. It also explicitly states that the abstracts and Galactus are merely the evolved humanity of previous universes ended by Phoenix and that our universes abstracts will in turn be surpassed and replaced as humanity evolves. The comic states that Phoenix is the only constant throughout creation and it shows that by tapping into the full power of the phoenix you will control creation and be supreme over all including LT .'

How .... Im really interested ? please ?

"That is shown in the comic and that is where the Phoenix retcon of 86 was abolished."

What was this ?

What was so hard to understand? Xmen Adventures as stated in my previous post was made canon by Marvel because its events were stated in Galactus' bio in the 2005 Handbook of the F4. Ok?

What do you mean how? Read the comic ive already told you how to download comics. It is stated explicitly in th ecomic that by tapping into the power of creation, by using phoenix you would become the supreme being and you would have power over all including LT. LT is then shown on his knees bowing before the Stranger tapping into the Phoenix power. Dont ask me how ask Marvel. Curiosity satisfied? I hope so. Check out Xmen Forever 1 to 6 for further info.

As for the retcon of 86 which Xmen Forever abolished find the details here. Read my post for full details:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7160&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=21

Let me know how you got on.

I need to learn this downloading comics thing...
Silly me, buying them.

Originally posted by Juntai
I need to learn this downloading comics thing...
Silly me, buying them.

I'll PM you the details

first off id like to congratulate galactic storm on actually posting some scans{which btw proves that u were lying when u didnt post the pheonix scans} secondly i would also like to congratulate you on the fact that by posting these scans you have proven your own point about lucifer getting his powers and being under his rule wrong,lol, that was the first universe lucifer created, u obviously havent been reading any lucifer comics{incidently if lucifer only has 50% the power to create just a universe than why did you say that he would be up their with ur version of pheonix force} n that universe was the result of micheal dying OUTSIDE CREATION, micheal has died too more times u know{if u read the comics that is,} and do u seriously believe that WORLD of the presence is a single universe?! what are you nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!{dont worry theres more to come, keep postin em scans n se how u lose without me even sayin anythyin}

oh ne yea did you notice how lucifer CREATED time, the endless time, the mega versal endless, time? out oif nuthing on his first try.

I just don't see this happening to Lucifer from a Magneto knock off from the Scarlet Witch.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Could someone explain this? I thought Phoenix was supposed to be all powerful?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/avalonofthewind/Xorneto.jpg

Originally posted by leonheartmm
first off id like to congratulate galactic storm on actually posting some scans{which btw proves that u were lying when u didnt post the pheonix scans} secondly i would also like to congratulate you on the fact that by posting these scans you have proven your own point about lucifer getting his powers and being under his rule wrong,lol, that was the first universe lucifer created, u obviously havent been reading any lucifer comics{incidently if lucifer only has 50% the power to create just a universe than why did you say that he would be up their with ur version of pheonix force} n that universe was the result of micheal dying OUTSIDE CREATION, micheal has died too more times u know{if u read the comics that is,} and do u seriously believe that WORLD of the presence is a single universe?! what are you nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!{dont worry theres more to come, keep postin em scans n se how u lose without me even sayin anythyin}

Good try Leon but allow me to set you straight once again.

A few months ago i found out just how easy it was to download comics so i started downloading all the titles i would never actually buy myself or those i missed out on because of my age. Synchro recommended Lucifer to me so i downloaded the entire series. Funnily enough mate when you download stuff its magically in digital form meaning its a simple matter to post the jpegs for all the forum to see.

As you know im a bigger fan of Marvel than i am of DC so i actually buy Marvel title which means i cant post pictures from them because i dont have access to a scanner. Ok? Good try though

My scans have supported my point. Everyone can see that but you. I suggest you take a long hard look at peoples posts before you open your mouth to judge or criticise as you only make yourself look really rather silly as well as making it quite apparrent that you cannot follow anything other than the most basic chains of thought. If it wasnt for the fact that ive actually posted scans which clearly speak for themselves, i would cater for your special needs by spelling everything out just for you.


Lucifer might need Michaels help to create a universe but it is made quite clear in Dc that he and his brother are second to Dc's God. That plus their integral roles in creation certainly make them peers of the White Crown Phoenix. We clear now?

is it gs, my love? apparently you havent been reading the comics too well then go read sandman or preacher, screw me if you dont find lucifer being able to create multiverses and currently ruling his own.{n btw, which site do u get ur comics from most require payment of 1 knind or another}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
is it gs, my love? apparently you havent been reading the comics too well then go read sandman or preacher, screw me if you dont find lucifer being able to create multiverses and currently ruling his own.{n btw, which site do u get ur comics from most require payment of 1 knind or another}

Lucifers own comic states quite clearly that he and his brother had a hand in making a universe for Presence and then again with the help of his brother he went on to make his own universe. That is not debatable. I have posted the scans so accept it like a man. You're grasping at straws here mate.