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The Living Tribunal

VS

The Beyonder (true)



WHO WINS?

Beyonder: "I'm bored now, so I'll destroy this universe."
L. Tribunal: "You are not allowed."
Beyonder: "What? I can do what I want. Who're you?"
L. Tribunal: "Too general a question. You must lay out your case to me."
Beyonder: "Do you know who I am?"
L. Tribunal: "Identity is relative and fleeting. You are your actions - define your reasoning before there is to be conflict."
Beyonder: "They have people like you on Earth; called lawyers. Were you a lawyer?"
L. Tribunal: "Define law."
Beyonder: "Uggghh...."

And on it would go...

isnt the beyonder made out of a galaxy? correct me if im wrong.

Lets just wait for Beyonder (user) and the others to get here okay ??

Beyonder seemignly killed Death, but it was only an illusion. Beyodner is no mathc for the likes of LT and abstracts.

Pre retcon Beyonder could in his day but thats irrelevant all that matters is current continuity and all that Beyonder amounts to is an incomplete cosmic cube. LT wins.

LT ...........

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT wins.

Easily

Original Beyonder : LT wins, but he would feel it.

Low budget version of Beyonder : LT very very easily.

Originally posted by who?-kid
Original Beyonder : LT wins, but he would feel it.

Low budget version of Beyonder : LT very very easily.
nope

Original Beyonder was above LT , infact he was above anyone in MU multiverse

People seem to forget that when the LT appears, it's only PART of him. It's an M body, just like the rest of the abstracts. He's in multiple dimensions as well as this one doing his thing. If one were to pit the Beyonder against the totality of the LT...well it'd be like using a bomb to kill a rat or something...

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
People seem to forget that when the LT appears, it's only PART of him. It's an M body, just like the rest of the abstracts. He's in multiple dimensions as well as this one doing his thing. If one were to pit the Beyonder against the totality of the LT...well it'd be like using a bomb to kill a rat or something...

Im not sure youre quite right. There is one LT in the multiverse and he manifests himself into a universe when his physical presence is required. However unless its been stated somewhere that he doesnt have full access to his power then its irrelevant that it was an M body. Beyonder was stated to be at the time the most powerful person in the multiverse therefore LT in his totality was included in that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im not sure youre quite right. There is one LT in the multiverse and he manifests himself into a universe when his physical presence is required. However unless its been stated somewhere that he doesnt have full access to his power then its irrelevant that it was an M body. Beyonder was stated to be at the time the most powerful person in the multiverse therefore LT in his totality was included in that.
BIG WORDS

LT is the guardian overseer of the marvel multiverse.

Pre-retcon Beyonder was the embodiment of a multiverse; also keep in mind his own multiverse is not subject to the same laws as the marvel multiverse.

so do any of you remember Thanos w/HOTU+ and what he did to the abstracts including LT...

it'd be sort of the same thing, but ive come to think true beyonder was above thanos or anyonelse w/hotu

Originally posted by Ethereal
LT is the guardian overseer of the marvel multiverse.

Pre-retcon Beyonder was the embodiment of a multiverse; also keep in mind his own multiverse is not subject to the same laws as the marvel multiverse.

so do any of you remember Thanos w/HOTU+ and what he did to the abstracts including LT...

it'd be sort of the same thing, but ive come to think true beyonder was above thanos or anyonelse w/hotu

Based on what? If H.O.T.U was truly gods power then the Beyonder would have fallen to it to.

dunno......

no thotu was not god's power, anyway any TRUE beyonder is beyond the multiverse, the preretcon beyonder could easily destroy the multiverse,{a proven fact by just how scared the celestials and reed richards got when they found out it was true}, the beyonders are second only to TOAA, and perhaps the infinite being that created the multiverse. he would own tribunal, but the cosmic cube version of the beyonder{who isnt a true beyonder anyway would die ofcourse.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no thotu was not god's power, anyway any TRUE beyonder is beyond the multiverse, the preretcon beyonder could easily destroy the multiverse,{a proven fact by just how scared the celestials and reed richards got when they found out it was true}, the beyonders are second only to TOAA, and perhaps the infinite being that created the multiverse. he would own tribunal, but the cosmic cube version of the beyonder{who isnt a true beyonder anyway would die ofcourse.

We dont know if its gods power or not conclusively as we have only Thanos' speculation to go on however the fact that he could take out LT who had previously only been shown to susceptible to Phoenix (another force linked to god) then it seems very likely that it was.

The pre retcon Beyonder while not part of the normal multiverse was a part of Marvel creation and still had to answer to Marvels supreme being. Therefore if HOTU was truly gods power as it seems then yes it would have been able to take him out.

The infinity Being as was made quite clear in the infinity series and its follow up had his form shattered into th Infinity Gems. One need only visit this link to see so:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=365666&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=4

Theres also a nice bit about it on wikipedia if you're interested.
As such it was far from second to TOAA.

Heres a link to the Inifnity Being:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nemesise.htm

no gs, if u stop thinkin about ur version of the pheonix force for one second ud know that i wasnt talkin about the infinite gem being, but the infinite being{dont really remember which comic it was, i think it was one of the old STRANGE TALES} which was one of the two creations of TOAA, one was the beyonder race living in the beyond realm and the other one was the infinite being, the infinite being died and released its energies to create the current marvel multiverse, THOTU was definately below toaa as it did not affect the beyonders or adam warlock when he was outside the multiverse. and anywauy, the true beyonders are only second to toaa, i dont see any 1 else beeing even close to there position{n dont say pheonix is}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no gs, if u stop thinkin about ur version of the pheonix force for one second ud know that i wasnt talkin about the infinite gem being, but the infinite being{dont really remember which comic it was, i think it was one of the old STRANGE TALES} which was one of the two creations of TOAA, one was the beyonder race living in the beyond realm and the other one was the infinite being, the infinite being died and released its energies to create the current marvel multiverse, THOTU was definately below toaa as it did not affect the beyonders or adam warlock when he was outside the multiverse. and anywauy, the true beyonders are only second to toaa, i dont see any 1 else beeing even close to there position{n dont say pheonix is}

We're talking about the same being Leon, you just havent caught on yet. As such he isnt even on Lt's level and he also doesnt factor in because his role doesnt exist in current continuity.

Of course HOTU is below TOAA itself because it wouldnt allow its full power to be so readily available for potential misuse. However unless we hear otherwise from Marvel we have to take it as gods power because of how it dealt with LT who is known to work for God. It all stands to reason.

As for the true beyonders. All you know of them is that they create the cosmic cubes and are from beyond our multiverse. However they are still from Marvel creation and as such are susceptible to gods power and those that wield it. So im sorry to say but LT and Phoenix are included.

no no gs, i told u STOP thinkin about the pheonix nonesense remember, ok here are sum facts, the fake beyonder{and we have to take his power as a representation of the true beyonders} could create a paradox in space time and destroy the multiverse, he talked to the tribunal and the tribunal was powerless to stop him or bring im under sontrol, he could have easiluy killed the tribunal if he wanted, the true beyonder race is said to be responsible for all the different form of life , in all universes and are said to use the celestials as workers or pawns to do the job, the beyond realm when it was visited by doom was said to be infinitely vast and powerful, even being larger than the marvel multiverse.

so u see even though TOAA could destroy the beyonder, THOTU probably couldnt, and LT and pheonix{she shouldnt even be mentioned here} sure as hell cant.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As for the true beyonders. All you know of them is that they create the cosmic cubes and are from beyond our multiverse. However they are still from Marvel creation and as such are susceptible to gods power and those that wield it. So im sorry to say but LT and Phoenix are included.

If true beyonders are from outside the Marvel Multiverse so why should LT or the lesser entity phoenix have any effect on them?

Or even enter the true beyonder's realm to ply their trade (so to speak) in that realm?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no no gs, i told u STOP thinkin about the pheonix nonesense remember, ok here are sum facts, the fake beyonder{and we have to take his power as a representation of the true beyonders} could create a paradox in space time and destroy the multiverse, he talked to the tribunal and the tribunal was powerless to stop him or bring im under sontrol, he could have easiluy killed the tribunal if he wanted, the true beyonder race is said to be responsible for all the different form of life , in all universes and are said to use the celestials as workers or pawns to do the job, the beyond realm when it was visited by doom was said to be infinitely vast and powerful, even being larger than the marvel multiverse.

so u see even though TOAA could destroy the beyonder, THOTU probably couldnt, and LT and pheonix{she shouldnt even be mentioned here} sure as hell cant.

Leon no we dont have to take the pre ret beyonders feats as an indication of the true beyonders powers as the Pre retcon beyonder was retconned and all of his feats were made out to be illusions. For all we know the true beyonders are nowhere near as powerful as the fake beyonder.

Where did you get that stuff about the celestials from? Its common knowledge that in current continuity they are the creations of eternity and are used to sow genetic potential across the universe.

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
True beyonders are from outside the Marvel Multiverse so why should LT or the lesser entity phoenix have any effect on them?

Or even enter the true beyonder's realm and please do not try to say that the PF created the beyonder's realm.

The true beyonders are from Marvel creation and as such they still have to answer to the supreme being of marvel and those that carry out his/its will be it LT or Phoenix.

As for your views of phoenix being a lesser being all you need do is follow this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Beings

or even this one:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=366709&pagenumber=13#post4998666

hmmm, it was an ILLUSION but it was also a representation of the power of TRUE BEYONDERS, other wise they wouldnt have called him a BEYONDER{i cant believe ur gonna argue on a stupid thing like this} AND PLEASE STOP WITH THE "CURRENT CONTINUITY" THING, just because u choose one comic out of the hundred's currently available doesnt mean everythin in any other comics past AND the clear present is changed, if anythin, the huge number of proofs in the other comics right now would make the new pheonix retcon unacceptable.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The true beyonders are from Marvel creation and as such they still have to answer to the supreme being of marvel and those that carry out his/its will be it LT or Phoenix.

Phoenix does not carry out the will of the TOAA in regard to matters of judgement, the LT does this.

Also if the Beyonder's realm is outside the marvel multiverse which LT safeguards but inside creation then who is to say that TOAA cannot enter the beyonder realm just because TOAA cannot enter the marvel multiverse.

Too many unknowns.

I cannot be bothered getting into the phoneix debate except to say a retcon back to its/her orginal power levels is needed badly.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
hmmm, it was an ILLUSION but it was also a representation of the power of TRUE BEYONDERS, other wise they wouldnt have called him a BEYONDER{i cant believe ur gonna argue on a stupid thing like this} AND PLEASE STOP WITH THE "CURRENT CONTINUITY" THING, just because u choose one comic out of the hundred's currently available doesnt mean everythin in any other comics past AND the clear present is changed, if anythin, the huge number of proofs in the other comics right now would make the new pheonix retcon unacceptable.

True and it is a pity that writers do not think of the worthwhile past stories that they invalidate with every silly retcon that is made in order to pander to current marketing strategies.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
hmmm, it was an ILLUSION but it was also a representation of the power of TRUE BEYONDERS, other wise they wouldnt have called him a BEYONDER{i cant believe ur gonna argue on a stupid thing like this} AND PLEASE STOP WITH THE "CURRENT CONTINUITY" THING, just because u choose one comic out of the hundred's currently available doesnt mean everythin in any other comics past AND the clear present is changed, if anythin, the huge number of proofs in the other comics right now would make the new pheonix retcon unacceptable.

You can continue to delude yourself if you wish but current continuity puts phoenix in the hierarchy exactly where i said she was. A retcon gets rid of or alters concepts and scenarios that came before.

The Beyonder was a controversial character amonst creators. Creators felt that Jim Shooter had abused his role as editor-in-chief, and forced the use of the omnipotent character upon other writers and editors. Some critics felt the crossovers didn't always mesh well with the main book. One of the most vocal critics was John Byrne.

Apparently, Steve Englehart wanted to tie in the Beyonder to older characters known as the Beyonders. According to Englehart, editor Ralph Macchio hated the character and ordered the Beyonder "removed" from the Marvel Universe. Englehart did as asked but has stated that he tried to exile the character with dignity. The character was subjected to a retcon making him less potent that originally determined, and explanations of his omnipotence have been written off as the more powerful beings "playing along" because the Beyonder's role was pre-determined.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonder"

The beyonder is no representation of the true beyonders because his power at that level didnt exist it was mere illusion.

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
Phoenix does not carry out the will of the TOAA in regard to matters of judgement, the LT does this.

Also if the Beyonder's realm is outside the marvel multiverse which LT safeguards but inside creation then who is to say that TOAA cannot enter the beyonder realm just because TOAA cannot enter the marvel multiverse.

Too many unknowns.

I cannot be bothered getting into the phoneix debate except to say a retcon back to its/her orginal power levels is needed badly.

If you were a well read comic book fan you'd know that this recent retcon has indeed returned phoenix back to its original state. The phoenix you have in your head is a retconned phoenix

Yeah, no one ever answered my q...... Is the BeyondRealm out of the LTs control ??

Ive been doing some research. It seems people have been mixing up some of the ideas behind the Fake beyonder with the true beyonders.

It was the fake beyonder who claimed to be the ebodiment of a multiverse from beyond ours, however after the retcon it seems people have been believeing that the true beyonders come from outside of our multiverse as well when instead they merely come form another dimension to our universe. They are very much a part of our multiverse it seems. Have a look:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/alienraces/beyonders.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonder

So yes Im1 LT would have power over the Beyond Realm.

Does LT have control over the Amothorpomophormo guy?

Originally posted by long pig
Does LT have control over the Amothorpomophormo guy?

Yes. Theres an agreement between him and the abstracts. As thanks for the m-bodies they give him energy which he needs to sustain himself. Its something like that anyway. I only recently found out from illadelph

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you were a well read comic book fan you'd know that this recent retcon has indeed returned phoenix back to its original state. The phoenix you have in your head is a retconned phoenix

Ha ha that reply is quite your style, that is to try create a strawman through petty insults.

Actually I have been reading comics for quite some time and remember the first appreance of the phoenix entity when there was one x title and not the plethora of sub standard x titles that exists today to pander to fanboys.

And no it is most certainly not a return to the phoenix that first appeared so stop peddling such nonsense.

wasn't HOTU just a srt of point where all the energies in the universe meet/pass whatever. so not sure about him having the power of God or a portion of it.

knowing this doesn't that mean it is the number most powerful item within the actuality and constraints of the universe.

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
Ha ha that reply is quite your style, that is to try create a strawman through petty insults.

Actually I have been reading comics for quite some time and remember the first appreance of the phoenix entity when there was one x title and not the plethora of sub standard x titles that exists today to pander to fanboys.

And no it is most certainly not a return to the phoenix that first appeared so stop peddling such nonsense.

Dont pretend to be well versed in that era of comics only to post a statement that suggests otherwise. You'll only make yourself look really silly.

Back in phoenixes original appearance Jean was phoenix it was her ultimate potential realised. It wasnt a seperate entity it was merely Jean in union with the primal force of creation due to her mutation. The energy bird was merely a physical manifestation of her power.

Marvel later wanted Jean a popular heroine in her time for X factor after her death. To do this they needed her to have a clean slate and no longer be accountable for the destruction of D'bari and its inhabitants. In order to achieve this the 86 retcon made Jeans energy signature a seperate entity unto itself and gave it a new origin. It was no longer the result of a union beween Jean and the primal force of creation (as clearly stated numerous times in uncanny 135, 137, Classic Xmen 8,42 and 43) but merely the sentient psionic energy of all things that do and ever will exist in the universe. It was a leech on life unborn and lost its status as the power behind creation.

New Xmen in 2002 reverted Phoenix to being Jeans mutation which bonded her to the power of creation. Endsong cemented this into current continuity, as have handbooks and references in titles such as F4.

You were saying?

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
wasn't HOTU just a srt of point where all the energies in the universe meet/pass whatever. so not sure about him having the power of God or a portion of it.

knowing this doesn't that mean it is the number most powerful item within the actuality and constraints of the universe.

It sounds like you might have it mixed up with the M'kraan crystal from how youre describing it. We dont know for a fact that its gods power, its just the fact that it made Thanos supreme over Living Tribunal the being said to work for Marvels God that suggests it is. That and Thanos speculated it was. As such until we hear anything different on the matter from Marvel i guess we just have to go along with it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont pretend to be well versed in that era of comics only to post a statement that suggests otherwise. You'll only make yourself look really silly.

Back in phoenixes original appearance Jean was phoenix it was her ultimate potential realised. It wasnt a seperate entity it was merely Jean in union with the primal force of creation due to her mutation. The energy bird was merely a physical manifestation of her power.

Marvel later wanted Jean a popular heroine in her time for X factor after her death. To do this they needed her to have a clean slate and no longer be accountable for the destruction of D'bari and its inhabitants. In order to achieve this the 86 retcon made Jeans energy signature a seperate entity unto itself and gave it a new origin. It was no longer the result of a union beween Jean and the primal force of creation (as clearly stated numerous times in uncanny 135, 137, Classic Xmen 8,42 and 43) but merely the sentient psionic energy of all things that do and ever will exist in the universe. It was a leech on life unborn and lost its status as the power behind creation.

New Xmen in 2002 reverted Phoenix to being Jeans mutation which bonded her to the power of creation. Endsong cemented this into current continuity, as have handbooks and references in titles such as F4.

You were saying?

Show me the text in the uncanny X-men issues where it states that Phoenix was second in power to the TOAA as you claim it was meant to be please.

GS you can fool some of the people some of the time......

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
Show me the text in the uncanny X-men issues where it states that Phoenix was second in power to the TOAA as you claim it was meant to be please.

GS you can fool some of the people some of the time......

You said you have the comics and you've read them therefore i'll point you to the issue. Uncanny Xmen 137. First page. Happy reading. No need to post the due apology

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive been doing some research. It seems people have been mixing up some of the ideas behind the Fake beyonder with the true beyonders.

It was the fake beyonder who claimed to be the ebodiment of a multiverse from beyond ours, however after the retcon it seems people have been believeing that the true beyonders come from outside of our multiverse as well when instead they merely come form another dimension to our universe. They are very much a part of our multiverse it seems. Have a look:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/alienraces/beyonders.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonder

So yes Im1 LT would have power over the Beyond Realm.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/otherdimensions/beyond.htm

Beyonder does seem to just be an entity from another universe. Like a bunch of other universes, the mainstream we're familar with is 616, the beyonders is another number . . .

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You said you have the comics and you've read them therefore i'll point you to the issue. Uncanny Xmen 137. First page. Happy reading. No need to post the due apology

Why can you not back up the statements that you make?

You made the claim but do not post the evidence.

I see no text in the original phoenix issues that state that the Phoenix entity is second to TOAA you say you do, post it then.

BTW making assumptions & snidey comments just show your age.

Until you do I am wasting no more time on you, good day sir.

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
Why can you not back up the statements that you make?

You made the claim but do not post the evidence.

I see no text in the original phoenix issues that state that the Phoenix entity is second to TOAA you say you do, post it then.

BTW making assumptions & snidey comments just show your age.

Until you do I am wasting no more time on you, good day sir. So where's your evidence?

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
BTW making assumptions & snidey comments just show your age.

Until you do I am wasting no more time on you, good day sir. Hmm . . .

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
Why can you not back up the statements that you make?

You made the claim but do not post the evidence.

I see no text in the original phoenix issues that state that the Phoenix entity is second to TOAA you say you do, post it then.

BTW making assumptions & snidey comments just show your age.

Until you do I am wasting no more time on you, good day sir.

If you cant take snidey comments dont dish em out mate. You came on here like some big shot and got dismissed.

Its common knowledge on this forum that in Uncanny Xmen 137 Phoenix was stated by the Watcher to be second only to TOAA. The issue has been discussed in depth many a month before your rather recent registration. I need post nothing.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you cant take snidey comments dont dish em out mate. You came on here like some big shot and got dismissed.

Dismissed heh.

Acting like a big shot, you must be looking in a mirror.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Its common knowledge on this forum that in Uncanny Xmen 137 Phoenix was stated by the Watcher to be second only to TOAA. The issue has been discussed in depth many a month before your rather recent registration. I need post nothing.

That is your claim to the Phoenix being second only in power that the watcher said Though Jean Grey could have lived to be a god, it
was important that she die...as a human

From that you deduce that the original intent of the character was to be second only to the TOAA.......

How many other characters have been refered to in that manner by the watcher and others?

Please.....

The dark phoenix saga was a classic and should have been left alone.

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
Dismissed heh.

Acting like a big shot, you must be looking in a mirror.

Its common knowledge on this forum that in Uncanny Xmen 137 Phoenix was stated by the Watcher to be second only to TOAA. The issue has been discussed in depth many a month before your rather recent registration. I need post nothing.

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
That is your claim to the Phoenix being second only in power that the watcher said Though Jean Grey could have lived to be a god, it
was important that she die...as a human

From that you deduce that the original intent of the character was to be second only to the TOAA.......

How many other characters have been refered to in that manner by the watcher and others?

Please.....

The dark phoenix saga was a classic and should have been left alone.



Did i or did i not point you to the first page of Uncanny Xmen 137?

So why have you quoted from the last page?

If you'd looked properly you would have witnessed this comment:

"I saw her reborn as phoenix, though she did not know it then, Jean had become one with a primal force second only to to the creator."

This was at a time when LT had already premiered as the multiversal judge in Strange Tales.

Make sure you know what you're talking about before you open your mouth. How awfully embarassing for you

It was a good attempt though. I accept your apology

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Did i or did i not point you to the first page of Uncanny Xmen 137?

So why have you quoted from the last page?

If you'd looked properly you would have witnessed this comment:

"I saw her reborn as phoenix, though she did not know it then, Jean had become one with a primal force second only to to the creator."

This was at a time when LT had already premiered as the multiversal judge in Strange Tales.

Make sure you know what you're talking about before you open your mouth. How awfully embarassing for you

It was a good attempt though. I accept your apology

Hate to say but you are right about that in reference to the Phoenix Force.

I concede and apologise.

Originally posted by 7PennyNightmare
Hate to say but you are right about that in reference to the Phoenix Force.

I concede and apologise.

Very honorable of you.