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who wins thanks.

phoenix easily

why didn't onslaught batter juggernaut and the x-man team.

Onslaugt without Franklin Richards powers lose badly

Onslaugt with FR powers turn "White Phenix" into dove or something, he stomps

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
Onslaugt without Franklin Richards powers lose badly

Onslaugt with FR powers turn "White Phenix" into dove or something, he stomps Not even if Loeb was writing it

WPOTC

The phoenix even if Onslaught gets FR's powers

Originally posted by iceman24567
Not even if Loeb was writing it with loebforce maybe WCF win against Onslaugt w/FR powers

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
with loebforce maybe WCF win against Onslaugt w/FR powers

no way in hell is FR Phoenix level..
at best hes average celestial level.
and Onslaught himself isn't worth shit compared to high-tier cosmics.

Originally posted by galactusischere
no way in hell is FR Phoenix level..
at best hes average celestial level.
and Onslaught himself isn't worth shit compared to high-tier cosmics. um Phenix cant even warp reality

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
um Phenix cant even warp reality


If it hasn't been shown doesn't mean she can't, alot of lower level cosmics can warp reality.

Originally posted by galactusischere

If it hasn't been shown doesn't mean she can't, alot of lower level cosmics can warp reality. there diferent lvls of reality warpin & Franklin is suppose to be hi-lvl & not many have that kinda power

so if PF could do it they would of shown it at least ONCE cuz it woud be her best power
like they did with big G

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
there diferent lvls of reality warpin & Franklin is suppose to be hi-lvl & not many have that kinda power

so if PF could do it they would of shown it at least ONCE cuz it woud be her best power
like they did with big G
Galactus is more powerful that FR man..
and ur saying hes not a high level eality warper?
Plus jean has held and repaired an entire UNIVERSE as the WPOTC
and im not even a fan of the Phoenix Force.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/th_onslaught_phoenixpwn1.jpg http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/th_onslaught_phoenixpwn2.jpg http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/th_onslaught_phoenixpwn3.jpg


...though i'm not sure if that trick would work on WPOTC. srug

Originally posted by Galan007
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/th_onslaught_phoenixpwn1.jpg http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/th_onslaught_phoenixpwn2.jpg http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/th_onslaught_phoenixpwn3.jpg


...though i'm not sure if that trick would work on WPOTC. srug

Probably won't work against the white phoenix.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Galactus is more powerful that FR man..
and ur saying hes not a high level eality warper?
Plus jean has held and repaired an entire UNIVERSE as the WPOTC
and im not even a fan of the Phoenix Force. no Im sayin Galactus CAN warp reality & THATS WHY they showed it

so if PF could do it then they would of showed it too
but thery dint show it, therefor she cant



and wasnt that representation of a universe she held or somethin, not a real universe

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
no Im sayin Galactus CAN warp reality & THATS WHY they showed it

so if PF could do it then they would of showed it too
but thery dint show it, therefor she cant
sorry misunderstood



and wasnt that representation of a universe she held or somethin, not a real universe
don't know about that

Phoenix has warped reality.

WCP ftw...

Originally posted by galactusischere
don't know about that your talking about that scene in the white room right?

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
your talking about that scene in the white room right?

yea and read Pr's comment

wtf when did she warp reality??

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
wtf when did she warp reality??

For Tomorrow, which tends to be forgotten by every X-Men writer since then...

Originally posted by -Pr-
For Tomorrow, which tends to be forgotten by every X-Men writer since then... ok what exacly did she do?

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
ok what exacly did she do?

She went back in time and forced Cyclops to stay with Emma, changing the future. At least imo.

but thats not reality warpin

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
but thats not reality warpin

why not? she went back in time, manipulated cyclops at a level no telepath could achieve, thus changing the future.

Originally posted by -Pr-
why not? she went back in time, manipulated cyclops at a level no telepath could achieve, thus changing the future. ok my bad u meant the cyclops thing not the time travel

i dont remeber this ep so i dunno what she did to him but yeah if she "changed" him or somethin the way u say, then i guess thats counts as warpin
not hi-lvl warp tho



or maybe its just exeptional TP skill & not real warp. got scan?

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
ok my bad u meant the cyclops thing not the time travel

i dont remeber this ep so i dunno what she did to him but yeah if she "changed" him or somethin the way u say, then i guess thats counts as warpin
not hi-lvl warp tho



or maybe its just exeptional TP skill & not real warp. got scan?

well time travel could be construed as reality warping if she didn't just travel through time but rewind time itself.

sure, i have it, one sec...

here's the timeline as it was:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_xm-151-19.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_xm-151-20.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_xm-151-21.jpg

here's what happened with jean and subsequently scott:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_NewX-Men-154-HereComesTomorrow04-21.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_NewX-Men-154-HereComesTomorrow04-22.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_NewX-Men-154-HereComesTomorrow04-23.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_NewX-Men-154-HereComesTomorrow04-24.jpg

read carefully the dialogue between the phoenix's and jean.

IMO time manip is just that, time manip. time gem coud do same thing, no need 4 reality gem



ok the emma & cyclop thing can be call reality warp BUT it can also be call (very very) hi-lvl molecular manip (in the panel it says tk control of atoms, btw it says "control" not "warp"

what i mean is she changed the timeline but she dint "warp" anythin, i mean the new universe works like the old one, its just that events are a bit different...uh dunno if u get my drift

Originally posted by -Pr-
well time travel could be construed as reality warping if she didn't just travel through time but rewind time itself.

sure, i have it, one sec...

here's the timeline as it was:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_xm-151-19.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_xm-151-20.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_xm-151-21.jpg

here's what happened with jean and subsequently scott:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_NewX-Men-154-HereComesTomorrow04-21.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_NewX-Men-154-HereComesTomorrow04-22.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_NewX-Men-154-HereComesTomorrow04-23.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_NewX-Men-154-HereComesTomorrow04-24.jpg

read carefully the dialogue between the phoenix's and jean.

awesome read

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
IMO time manip is just that, time manip. time gem coud do same thing, no need 4 reality gem



ok the emma & cyclop thing can be call reality warp BUT it can also be call (very very) hi-lvl molecular manip (in the panel it says tk control of atoms, btw it says "control" not "warp"

what i mean is she changed the timeline but she dint "warp" anythin, i mean the new universe works like the old one, its just that events are a bit different...uh dunno if u get my drift

oh, i do, i just disagree.

you say it's control and not warping, but for me, that's just semantics.

Originally posted by -Pr-

why not? she went back in time,
manipulated cyclops at a level no telepath could achieve,
thus changing the future.
I can name 5 characters (for starters), with no TP whatsoever,
that have altered a possible 616 future in the same fashion.

That is:

Travelling back in time into 616,
in order to change the future of their own reality.

Jean didn't warp 616, or any other reality,
she traveled back in time, from 15104 to 616,
she then mind raped Scott,
and that changed that alternate possible future (reality 15104)

So literally, the power behind the creation and nullification of reality 15104,
was all in Scott's decision/mind.

Originally posted by -Pr-

well time travel could be construed as reality warping
if she didn't just travel through time

but rewind time itself.

read carefully the dialogue between the phoenix's and jean.
You can't affect a concept through atoms.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I can name 5 characters (for starters), with no TP whatsoever,
that have altered a possible 616 future in the same fashion.

That is:

Travelling back in time into 616,
in order to change the future of their own reality.

Jean didn't warp 616, or any other reality,
she traveled back in time, from 15104 to 616,
she then mind raped Scott,
and that changed that alternate possible future (reality 15104)

So literally, the power behind the creation and nullification of reality 15104,
was all in Scott's decision/mind.

i disagree.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You can't affect a concept through atoms.

time? or reality?

and who says they're simply a concept?

Originally posted by -Pr-

i disagree.
Cool, I respect that,
still doesn't change the on panel depiction,
which was confirmed in the handbook (2 of them) corroborated factual truth.
Originally posted by -Pr-

time? or reality?

and who says they're simply a concept?
Time is a Conceptual idea, in the real world and definitely in Marvel comics.

Reality (in Marvel comics specifically) is Time/Space and everything in-between.

If you need on panel and yet again
(handbooks confirming the on panel facts)
let me know.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool, I respect that,
still doesn't change the on panel depiction,
which was confirmed in the handbook (2 of them) corroborated factual truth.

you never considered that your interpretation of it might be false?

question. if it is in fact an alternate timeline that has nothing to do with 616, then why print the comics? why tell the story? why would jean bother to manipulate it? she's from 616, and 616 scott is who she cares for above all. if it's not 616 scott, then why bother?



time has also been manipulated by various beings. jean isn't the first, nor will she be the last person to manipulate it. i really don't see why it's that much of an issue.

Originally posted by -Pr-

you never considered that your interpretation of it might be false?
No, since it coincides with the interpretation of the writer (Grant Morrison)
who literally wrote it, in the questionnaires to the writers in the last page next issue,
and also Marvel Comics (Handbooks)

If I'm wrong, then Morrison is wrong about his own work,
and the Handbook writers as well who corroborated said truth.
Originally posted by -Pr-

question.

if it is in fact an alternate timeline that has nothing to do with 616,
then why print the comics?


And who said it had nothing to do with 616?

Everything comes from 616,
every alternate/diverged/mirror reality comes from 616.

So, of course one has to change soemthing in 616,
in order to change something in an alternate universe.

How the hell you think all those 'What If' realities came to light?

Correct, by a decision made back in 616,
just like Scott's decision to quit,
gave rise to a global dominating Sublime in an alternate Future called Here Comes Tomorrow,
this alternate future was designated Reality 15104. (just another possible future of 616)

And just like Scott's decision to stay with the X-Men,
nullified the tragedy that was that alternate future. (here Comes Tomorrow - Reality 15104)

The only significance that Jean has in the alteration of reality 15104,
is manipulating Scott's to stay with the X-Men.
Originally posted by -Pr-

why tell the story? why would jean bother to manipulate it?
Jean manipulated Scott,
because the Phoenix of the White Crown is from Reality 15104,
there is NO WPotC in 616.

But there is a WPotC in the a possible future known as Here Comes Tomorrow,
this possible future is located in a reality designated 15104.

WPotC wanted Scott alive in her future,
so yea, she had to back into 616,
in order to give Scott life again,
and simultaneously assuring that Sublime would not rule her world in that future.
Originally posted by -Pr-

she's from 616,
and 616 scott is who she cares for above all.
if it's not 616 scott, then why bother?
All 'What If' stories originate from 616,
just like Here Comes Tomorrow.

So, if Here Comes Tomorrow is 616,
then every single 'What If' story is 616 as well.

And that's bull shit (pardon my french)
Originally posted by -Pr-

time has also been manipulated by various beings. jean isn't the first, nor will she be the last person to manipulate it. i really don't see why it's that much of an issue.
Jean never manipulated time in Here Comes Tomorrow.

She manipulated Scott's decision,
which in turn manipulated time.

The power of the divergence was always in Scott's decision.