World Forger vs. Molecule Man

AlbertoJohnAvil

Originally posted by Galan007
WF wins.

Owen helped Franklin recreate the multiverse. World Forger has done that on his own. Twice. And also created Hypertime itself. The scale of what WF has personally created is several orders of magnitude beyond what Owen+Franklin did.

Additionally, Owen was killed by Griever of all Things -- and Griever was scared shitless of Franklin's power(which was solidly capped at universal in the very same story.) For a point of reference, even in a "greatly diminished" state, WF can still create entire universes with a single swing of his hammer. So yeah...

Ewing gave Owen some great lip-service, but that's about it. Quantifiable feats are what matter, and in that regard WF dwarfs Owen, tbh...

It was literally stated that Hypertime is connecting point between Timelines so it can't be infinite since not every Timeline is intersecting at the same time. Not really impressive

Show me a scan where it implies "hypertime" is a full blown multiverse

TheHulkster

Owen supplies the power. Franklin supplies the imagination.

https://imgur.com/a/B4BUAZb

https://imgur.com/a/nGyWP62

abhilegend

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
It was literally stated that Hypertime is connecting point between Timelines so it can't be infinite since not every Timeline is intersecting at the same time. Not really impressive

Show me a scan where it implies "hypertime" is a full blown multiverse
Hypertime was established as an infinite multiverse from start.

http://i.imgur.com/33yUx0c.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0vlZb4D.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PvC0fZx.jpg

Galan007

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hypertime was established as an infinite multiverse from start.

http://i.imgur.com/33yUx0c.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0vlZb4D.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PvC0fZx.jpg thumb up

Hypertime is the fundamental concept that interweaves the infinity of DC's pasts/presents/futures, across ALL of its universes... But according to Alberto, creating something so gargantuanly all-encompassing "isn't really impressive".

Jfc...

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Owen supplies the power. Franklin supplies the imagination.

https://imgur.com/a/B4BUAZb

https://imgur.com/a/nGyWP62 Newest info states that Franklin is who conceived of, and manifested, each and every universe individually. Owen then used his molecules to bind and anchor those universes to reality, one by one:
https://i.imgur.com/BNKU0xs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sfS2kAh.jpg

IOW, restoring the multiverse was very much a shared feat that was achieved on a universe-by-universe basis, and required BOTH of them. This was further solidified in the recent issues of FF:
https://i.imgur.com/ho8AjUx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TDrA5ge.jpg

Hell, the intro page for issue #3 credits Franklin's power(and Franklin's power alone) with the feat:
https://i.imgur.com/7fqPTDg.jpg

Either way, the point is that World Forger can preform a feat like that(ie. universal creation)...by himself...in a "greatly diminished" state...with a single hammer swing:
https://i.imgur.com/RellsV9.jpg

...I don't see how you can even begin to put Owen's power on par with Forger's, without just flagrantly ignoring evidence, and/or trolling.

JBL THE GREAT

Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

Hypertime is the fundamental concept that interweaves the infinity of DC's pasts/presents/futures, across ALL of its universes... But according to Alberto, creating something so gargantuanly all-encompassing "isn't really impressive".

Jfc...

Newest info states that Franklin is who conceived of, and manifested, each and every universe individually. Owen then used his molecules to bind and anchor those universes to reality, one by one:
https://i.imgur.com/BNKU0xs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sfS2kAh.jpg

IOW, restoring the multiverse was very much a shared feat that was achieved on a universe-by-universe basis, and required BOTH of them. This was further solidified in the recent issues of FF:
https://i.imgur.com/ho8AjUx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TDrA5ge.jpg

Hell, the intro page for issue #3 credits Franklin's power(and Franklin's power alone) with the feat:
https://i.imgur.com/7fqPTDg.jpg

Either way, the point is that World Forger can preform a feat like that(ie. universal creation)...by himself...in a "greatly diminished" state...with a single hammer swing:
https://i.imgur.com/RellsV9.jpg

...I don't see how you can even begin to put Owen's power on par with Forger's, without just flagrantly ignoring evidence, and/or trolling. You do know that MM stood up to Classic Beyonder right?

MrMind

Originally posted by JBL THE GREAT
You do know that MM stood up to Classic Beyonder right?

he didn't, pre retcon beyonder never existed,neither did pre-retcon molecule man. it was an imagination. that's what retcon was for dummy.

JBL THE GREAT

Originally posted by MrMind
he didn't, pre retcon beyonder never existed,neither did pre-retcon molecule man. it was an imagination. that's what retcon was for dummy. All comics are imagination Dummy.

MrMind

Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

Hypertime is the fundamental concept that interweaves the infinity of DC's pasts/presents/futures, across ALL of its universes... But according to Alberto, creating something so gargantuanly all-encompassing "isn't really impressive".

Jfc...

Newest info states that Franklin is who conceived of, and manifested, each and every universe individually. Owen then used his molecules to bind and anchor those universes to reality, one by one:
https://i.imgur.com/BNKU0xs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sfS2kAh.jpg

IOW, restoring the multiverse was very much a shared feat that was achieved on a universe-by-universe basis, and required BOTH of them. This was further solidified in the recent issues of FF:
https://i.imgur.com/ho8AjUx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TDrA5ge.jpg

Hell, the intro page for issue #3 credits Franklin's power(and Franklin's power alone) with the feat:
https://i.imgur.com/7fqPTDg.jpg

Either way, the point is that World Forger can preform a feat like that(ie. universal creation)...by himself...in a "greatly diminished" state...with a single hammer swing:
https://i.imgur.com/RellsV9.jpg

...I don't see how you can even begin to put Owen's power on par with Forger's, without just flagrantly ignoring evidence, and/or trolling.

honestly I'm starting to question current marvel after SW has infinite numbers of universes, if you think about it, they created the multiverse one universe at a time

LordGod

The multiverse Franklin and Owen created can't be infinite IMO. Not only did they make each universe one at a time, but they also took breaks and shit in between when Franklin needed to rest. And it wasn't implied to have taken them very at all long to do this.

abhilegend

It was stated to be a few thousand universes IIRC.

MrMind

Originally posted by abhilegend
It was stated to be a few thousand universes IIRC.

damn, that's how big current marvel is?

abhilegend

I don't think so.

https://i.postimg.cc/VrLHDxNT/RCO011.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/FkYCQ03V/RCO012.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/bd5F9FfC/RCO013.jpg

But who knows?

Galan007

Originally posted by MrMind
honestly I'm starting to question current marvel after SW has infinite numbers of universes, if you think about it, they created the multiverse one universe at a time Originally posted by LordGod
The multiverse Franklin and Owen created can't be infinite IMO. Not only did they make each universe one at a time, but they also took breaks and shit in between when Franklin needed to rest. And it wasn't implied to have taken them very at all long to do this.
They were only at it for "over half a decade":
https://i.imgur.com/hfpekTt.jpg
...So more than 5 years, but less than 10.

IOW, they weren't creating individual universes for very long at all -- certainly not long enough to produce infinite universes. That's probably why Reed made the number of universes within their newly-fashioned multiverse sound extremely finite here:
https://i.imgur.com/1tVZ9ZC.jpg

LordGod

You definitely aren't creating an infinite amount of universes in under 10 years by doing it one by one. A few thousand sounds about right.

Mr Master

So, ... this is a creation contest, not a battle. Cool beans then.
Originally posted by MrMind

he didn't, pre retcon beyonder never existed,

neither did pre-retcon molecule man.

it was an imagination.
Actually they did exist, but a few details were changed.

staxamillion

would mm be able to affect the forge/hammer in anyway like erase from existence?

cdtm

Originally posted by Mr Master
So, ... this is a creation contest, not a battle. Cool beans then.

Actually they did exist, but a few details were changed.

Creating universes is a sign of overall power.

That, and no one's ever asked LT, Eternity, or even Lucifer Morningstar about their "combat feats" before. (For the latter, tanking Michael's power and crafting a multiverse from it was good enough.)

MrMind

Originally posted by JBL THE GREAT
All comics are imagination Dummy.

beyonder and molecule man were retconned, meaning they were never that powerful to begin with

MrMind

WF wins

off topic
there's a reason DC has over 13 1-A beings on vsbattles
and marvel only has 1

DC has 2 tieir-0
Marvel only has 1

or every polls in 2019 across the internet except here, have lucifer and michael over beyonder and molecule man

marvel can't compare to dc in cosmic/abstract level

funny how things changed

panthergod

Originally posted by MrMind
WF wins

off topic
there's a reason DC has over 13 1-A beings on vsbattles
and marvel only has 1

DC has 2 tieir-0
Marvel only has 1

or every polls in 2019 across the internet except here, have lucifer and michael over beyonder and molecule man

marvel can't compare to dc in cosmic/abstract level

funny how things changed

Yes, people who can actually read and interpret comics accurately have been destroying the delusional Marveltards.

TheHulkster

Originally posted by cdtm
Creating universes is a sign of overall power.

That, and no one's ever asked LT, Eternity, or even Lucifer Morningstar about their "combat feats" before. (For the latter, tanking Michael's power and crafting a multiverse from it was good enough.)

People do ask that of LT and Eternity.

Had Monitor created universes?

-K-M-

Originally posted by panthergod
Yes, people who can actually read and interpret comics accurately have been destroying the delusional Marveltards.

Unnecessary

Originally posted by TheHulkster
People do ask that of LT and Eternity.

Had Monitor created universes?

The Monitor of Earth 51 remade the universe after the Monarch/Superboy Prime fight. Happened off panel though

Galan007

Originally posted by TheHulkster
People do ask that of LT and Eternity.

Had Monitor created universes? Without needlessly going off-topic, how is this question even relevant to the battle at hand?

Current Owen and World Forger are in this thread... and it took the power of current Owen+Franklin to manifest full-scale, individual universes. As mentioned, universal creation is something that WF can do all by himself with a single swing of his hammer, while significantly weakened.

Like I said above: how can anyone seriously argue that their powers are even remotely comparable? As of now, current Owen has yet to live up to the lip-service Ewing gave him in that one issue. That's a fact.

Mr Master

Originally posted by cdtm

Creating universes is a sign of overall power.
In terms of "creating universes?" Absolutely.

But depth of power is another issue.
Originally posted by cdtm

That, and no one's ever asked LT, Eternity,

or even Lucifer Morningstar about their "combat feats" before.

(For the latter, tanking Michael's power and crafting a multiverse from it was good enough.)
DC isn't my thing, so Lucy whatevs.

Although it's not LT's function to create realities,
Yet, that aside, there's one showing where he simultaneously fashioned
the entirety of the Marvel embodiment and another equal totality.

LT also was portrayed as the embodiment of infinite universeS.

-------------------------------------------------

Eternity creates entire universeS all day, every day.
Originally posted by MrMind

beyonder and molecule man were retconned,

meaning ...they were never that powerful to begin with
... meaning ... in their Post-retcon portrayal,

they contributed in a trans-Multiversal feat. (omniversal)

So incredible was their uber performance,
that the TVA (omniversal reality mechanics)
were stacked to their max with the warped universeS that needed fixing.
Originally posted by MrMind

off topic
there's a reason DC has over 13 1-A beings on vsbattles
and marvel only has 1

DC has 2 tieir-0
Marvel only has 1

or every polls in 2019 across the internet

except here,

have lucifer and michael over beyonder and molecule man
Who gives a shit what any other run of the mill/sub-forum opinion believes.

This is KMC, where the comic book debating gods reside.

Get that nonsense out of here dogs.
Originally posted by cdtm

marvel can't compare to dc in cosmic/abstract level
Iyo ... which is respected, but disagreed with.

Mr Master

Originally posted by staxamillion

would mm be able to affect the forge/hammer in anyway like erase from existence?
If Owen can't create a bunch of universes, he can't win. no expression

Yes, I know what you're going to say:

You: But Owen possess the power of the race of BeyonderS.

Me: So?

You: But only 3 BeyonderS defeated and killed the combined power of infinite universeS fighting back,
and Owen has the power of those 3, + the entire race.

Me: This battle is about creating universes, not about shitstomping universes.

You: What the f**k?

... I guess, still don't get it.

Me: Trust me, I understand.

LordGod

What has OWEN done with that power though? Doesn't matter what the Beyonders did with it, because Owen isn't the Beyonders, and we don't share feats for obvious reasons.

Since you say creating universes isn't a sign of a character's overall power, what combat feats does this version of OWEN have that put him above World Forger? The only combat showing I can even think of is when he was killed by Griever, but like Galan said- Griever was actually worried about Franklin and didn't dare fight him directly.

In other words- Franklin=universal>Griever>current Owen. So that one definitely doesn't help your case.

DeadpoolXXX

combat feats only start mattering when it's conveinent for the marvel camp, obv.

most other rational people can look at this battle and see the massive discrepency in power.

-mm created limited multiverse with franklins help.
-wf created two infinite multiverses and hypertime by himself.

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out who has the greater display of personal power lmao.

TheHulkster

Originally posted by Galan007
Without needlessly going off-topic, how is this question even relevant to the battle at hand?

Current Owen and World Forger are in this thread... and it took the power of current Owen+Franklin to manifest full-scale, individual universes. As mentioned, universal creation is something that WF can do all by himself with a single swing of his hammer, while significantly weakened.

Like I said above: how can anyone seriously argue that their powers are even remotely comparable? As of now, current Owen has yet to live up to the lip-service Ewing gave him in that one issue. That's a fact.

Based on their origins, I'm quite sure they are viewed as equals despite only one being the one who hammers out universes routinely. Same for Antimonitor. It's an example of how one thing is not the be all/ end all.

As the scan shows, Owen provides the power and Franklin provides the imagination. Owen actually show destructive power by there being fear that he could wipe Galactus from existence with a thought. What indication is given that WF can do that?

LordGod

Originally posted by Diesldude
with the power of the beyonders he should be able to do everything they were able to do. Don't know if he has the experience or the knowledge they did to use that power but to full capacity but he should be able to do everything they did if he uses that power correctly. Feat sharing like that is faulty.

As an example- Nebula w. IG has the same power that Thanos w. IG had. That doesn't mean Nebula automatically gets all of Thanos's IG feats, though, because every character is not created equal, and Nebula was a shit IG user while Thanos was not. Their ability to use that power is going to be immensely different.

The same principal applies to LOADS of other areas. Feat sharing just doesn't work. Therefore we have to stick with OWEN'S feats here.

LordGod

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Based on their origins, I'm quite sure they are viewed as equals despite only one being the one who hammers out universes routinely. Same for Antimonitor. It's an example of how one thing is not the be all/ end all.

As the scan shows, Owen provides the power and Franklin provides the imagination. Owen actually show destructive power by there being fear that he could wipe Galactus from existence with a thought. What indication is given that WF can do that? I just told Mr Master this-

Owen was killed by Griever. Griever feared Franklin's universal power. So if Owen could have killed Lifebringer, it means he (Lifebringer) was far below universal.

What feats does OWEN have to suggest that he can kill a multiversal+++ being like WF? How far are you people willing to take this silly logic?

AlbertoJohnAvil

Originally posted by LordGod
I just told Mr Master this-

Owen was killed by Griever. Griever feared Franklin's universal power. So if Owen could have killed Lifebringer, it means he (Lifebringer) was far below universal.

What feats does OWEN have to suggest that he can kill a multiversal+++ being like WF? How far are you people willing to take this silly logic?

What are you talking about? That wasn't the real Owen, but an aspect. There's infinite Owen existing across the entire multiverse

https://i.postimg.cc/BLWzytMN/hea.jpg

LordGod

That scan is from before Owen absorbed the power of the Beyonders, genius. There is currently only ONE Owen that we know of- and that is the Owen who teamed up with Franklin to remake the multiverse. This is the SAME Owen who Lifebringer talked to, and the SAME Owen who was killed by Griever.

Mr Master

^^ Nah. I shall return with the proof.
Originally posted by Deisldude

with the power of the beyonders he should be able to do everything they were able to do.

he should be able to do everything they did if he uses that power correctly.
thumb up

Originally posted by LordGod

As an example- Nebula w. IG has the same power that Thanos w. IG had.

That doesn't mean Nebula automatically gets all of Thanos's IG feats, though,
because every character is not created equal,
and Nebula was a shit IG user while Thanos was not.
no expression

.. Wut?

Nebula curbstomped the cosmic hierarchy (minus Eternity) in one move,
and she also reverted Thanos' actions in one move likewise.

The ONLY thing she lacked that Thanos had, was full cosmic awareness.

Why? Absolutely nothing to do with "different" characters.

Nebula was literally a decaying fleshless living corpse right before acquiring the IG.
Her broken mind gave her the limitation I just highlighted.

Literally stated On Panel.
Originally posted by LordGod

Therefore we have to stick with OWEN'S feats here.
Owen's (BeyonderS empowered) appearances are extremely limited.

3 BeyonderS stomped/killed the combined power of infinite universeS.

Owen not only has the power of those 3, but the entire race as well.

--------------------------------------------------------

As for Owen, he keeps the previous omniverse around for lulz in his ex nihilo created reality.

LordGod

facepalm

3 Beyonders kill MULTIVERSAL LT and all of the hierarchy, yet Owen w. the power of ALL the Beyonders is killed by a being who feared Franklin's UNIVERSAL power.

Yet I'm to believe all of the Beyonders' feats cross-over to Owen? Do you guys even listen to yourselves?

AlbertoJohnAvil

Originally posted by LordGod
That scan is from before Owen absorbed the power of the Beyonders, genius. There is currently only ONE Owen that we know of- and that is the Owen who teamed up with Franklin to remake the multiverse. This is the SAME Owen who Lifebringer talked to, and the SAME Owen who was killed by Griever.

Show me where it was stated there's only 1 Owen now. Nothing ever retconned that scan

AlbertoJohnAvil

LordGod

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Show me where it was stated there's only 1 Owen now. Nothing ever retconned that scan Read the arc.

The previous multiverse was destroyed. One Owen remains and acts as receptacle for all the Beyonders power. Same Owen remains afterward and helps Franklin remake the multiverse.

This was one of the most fundamental plot points of the entire story lol.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Lifebringer Galan stomped Order and Chaos At a time when the current Marvel cosmos was still brand new and hadn't yet solidified. It was in a state of complete disarray, and the proper hierarchy was in flux. That's how Order and Chaos killed LT a few issues later for example.

What's your point?

AlbertoJohnAvil

Originally posted by LordGod
Read the arc.

The previous multiverse was destroyed. One Owen remains and acts as receptacle for all the Beyonders power. Same Owen remains afterward and helps Franklin remake the multiverse.

This was one of the most fundamental plot points of the entire story lol.

At a time when the current Marvel cosmos was still brand new and hadn't yet solidified. It was in a state of complete disarray, and the proper hierarchy was in flux. That's how Order and Chaos killed LT a few issues later for example.

What's your point?

...What?

The fight with Chaos and Order happened WAY BEFORE the logos saga

LordGod

Same unstable new cosmos, genius.

That was literally credited as -the- reason why Order and Chaos were able to kill LT and take over the hierarchy. So the same principal logically applies to Lifebringer beating Order and Chaos prior to that. You really need to read the issues and take a moment to let everything soak in.

AlbertoJohnAvil

Mr Master

So I just read the arc, and, the "Griever" is being grossly underestimated here.

TheHulkster

Originally posted by LordGod
facepalm

3 Beyonders kill MULTIVERSAL LT and all of the hierarchy, yet Owen w. the power of ALL the Beyonders is killed by a being who feared Franklin's UNIVERSAL power.

Yet I'm to believe all of the Beyonders' feats cross-over to Owen? Do you guys even listen to yourselves?

Bits of Owen is being sliced off with each reality. That would would have him weaker by that issue.

xJLxKing

It looks like members are back at it again with the "combat feat" dilemma

I generally always assumed the scope and depth of creating universe/multiverses is really what mattered. A being who can create a multiverse>A being who creates one universe

World Forger already stated he can redirect the energy from each swing of his hammer. He even stated that each swing in his diminished form can create a universe. We also know he has create a multiverse.

AlbertoJohnAvil

Stuff like creating universes often implies a lot of direct combat ability. It's *somewhat* circumstantial, sometimes someone can make a universe but that's it, they're, say, using a cosmic forge or such while being personally weak, but if you can wave your hand and make a universe, you can wave your hand and make an energy bolt, black hole, or whatever, so most high creator types can be assumed to be pretty much beyond anyone else who can't create/destroy universes.

xJLxKing

...what

deft

Originally posted by LordGod
Same unstable new cosmos, genius.

That was literally credited as -the- reason why Order and Chaos were able to kill LT and take over the hierarchy. So the same principal logically applies to Lifebringer beating Order and Chaos prior to that. You really need to read the issues and take a moment to let everything soak in.

Yeah, youre right, id add the scans.

"We were always yours superiors in the cosmic hierarchy"

https://imgur.com/918Hktu

Ok, this is possible because the multiverse was unstable and the cosmic entities still learning about the new reality:

https://imgur.com/VNgTDJL

Stoic

I can't wait to see how powerful WF really is. Anyone with me on this?

Mr Master

After reading some issues, I just noticed Owen is a God unto himself with BeyonderS' powers.

Heck, he may be scripting everything that has happened since, and continues to happen now.

This concept of course excludes Starlin and his private party.

But that aside, I'm diggin meticulously, and finding interesting details.

I'll return with goodies.

-----------------------------------------------------

Also, I'm trying to understand what Owen was doing helping Franky create universeS for fun,
cuz that doesn't add up at all, since Owen clearly stated in his dialogue with LBG, (pre-Griever story)
he was done with the cosmic stuff,
and wanted to remain in his private reality watching shit unfold.

So, how the phuk did he end up in the Griever story, (post-LBG conversation)
when he was done helping Franklin and had retired to his private domain?

Btw, I don't think Owen was weakened from helping Franky, at-least not in Ultimates #6.

I'll get to the bottom of this soon enough.

This is the first time I delve hard into the new shit going on in Marvel.
I'm off for the next few days, I'm absorbing everything after Secret Wars concerning cosmics.

TheHulkster

Originally posted by LordGod
facepalm

3 Beyonders kill MULTIVERSAL LT and all of the hierarchy, yet Owen w. the power of ALL the Beyonders is killed by a being who feared Franklin's UNIVERSAL power.

Yet I'm to believe all of the Beyonders' feats cross-over to Owen? Do you guys even listen to yourselves?

Where does Griever express fear of Franklin's power?

abhilegend

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MeH80iBBS_c/W5ln-V1GAeI/AAAAAAAAEUw/JvreCpafmS4w6j3yRo3C4DKaNRPA3uBJwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO008.jpg

Mr Master

facepalm ...

When you only swing for low balls, you miss the context completely. Per usual.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Entropy/Destruction is a Cosmic bi-Conceptual abstract embodiment. (unique)

It was only able to manifest, because Franky was creating universeS willie nillie for lulz.

They (Franky/FF) were adding realitieS to the Multiverse,
this, unbeknownst to them,
was "changing the shape of the Multiverse"
which forced Griever to manifest and rectify shit.

Griever (the embodiment of Entropy AND Destruction)

was erasing the universeS they had created effortlessly. (without help) thumb up

But, Griever, had to wait till they finished tinkering with the Multiverse, before it could appear.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Obviously Franklin at any stage of his life means nothing ...

because even when he reaches full potential

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/43696103_Die2.jpg

'Hey look at me, I can create freakin MultiverseS'

-----------------------------------------------------------

He still won't be able to escape Griever's touch of death:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/43696101_Die.jpg

'So wut dogs, Entropy' (Griever) 'is coming for that ass ... and there's nothing u can do lol' thumb up

abhilegend

Franklin would outlive the death of the universe schmuck. Read again.

Also lol at sidestepping the issue that Griever only attacked when Franklin was depowered.

LordGod

Originally posted by Mr Master
So I just read the arc, and, the "Griever" is being grossly underestimated here. Originally posted by Mr Master
She (Griever) is the "Heat Death" ...

... the shit that consumes MultiverseS and cats that can create MultiverseS. No she's not.

Griever being an aspect of entropy is completely irrelevant, because she was NOT a multiversal being. A multiversal being would NOT be so concerned about Franklin's UNIVERSAL power that they dare not confront him directly until his power is burned out.....And Griever specifically waited for Franklin to become depowered before she acted.

Griever was SO pathetic, in fact, that she couldn't even beat "simple life forms", like the Fantastic Four- that's why they and the other heroes were able to fight against her so well. This was specifically noted by Reed. She also was confined to a single universe and needed a goddamn space ship and Reed's teleporter to get into other universes FFS. The concept of entropy might end up being multiversal, but GRIEVER herself most certainly was not. Not in THIS story at least.

Originally posted by Mr Master
After reading some issues, I just noticed Owen is a God unto himself with BeyonderS' powers.

Heck, he may be scripting everything that has happened since, and continues to happen now.

This concept of course excludes Starlin and his private party.

But that aside, I'm diggin meticulously, and finding interesting details.

I'll return with goodies.

-----------------------------------------------------

Also, I'm trying to understand what Owen was doing helping Franky create universeS for fun,
cuz that doesn't add up at all, since Owen clearly stated in his dialogue with LBG, (pre-Griever story)
he was done with the cosmic stuff,
and wanted to remain in his private reality watching shit unfold.

So, how the phuk did he end up in the Griever story, (post-LBG conversation)
when he was done helping Franklin and had retired to his private domain?

Btw, I don't think Owen was weakened from helping Franky, at-least not in Ultimates #6.

I'll get to the bottom of this soon enough.

This is the first time I delve hard into the new shit going on in Marvel.
I'm off for the next few days, I'm absorbing everything after Secret Wars concerning cosmics. I like how this guy is so arrogant that he acts like he's the only person capable of reading a story and comprehending the truth. roll eyes (sarcastic)

LordGod

Originally posted by abhilegend
Franklin would outlive the death of the universe schmuck. Read again.

Also lol at sidestepping the issue that Griever only attacked when Franklin was depowered. thumb up

He's going to pretend like Griever is multiversal because entropy ends up being the force that kills the multiverse billions of years in the future, for the same reason he pretended like Owen gets the feats of the Beyonders just because he absorbed their powers. lol.

Illogical feat sharing is only permitted when it helps the Marvel side win I guess.

DeadpoolXXX

Originally posted by abhilegend
Franklin would outlive the death of the universe schmuck. Read again. weird how that bit gets left out, eh? but like you said franklin SURVIVES all of that.

franklin- "WE will watch as all that has been will become something new. the birth of a new universe"
https://i.postimg.cc/wBBg2YGg/2.jpg

galactus- "my energies are all that remain to create the next universe. YOUR NEW HOME"
https://i.postimg.cc/HW60vwnm/0.jpg

and lol @ griever trying to be scaled up to multiverse level now. the desperation is palpable.

Mr Master

cheerleader
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil

It's *somewhat* circumstantial, sometimes someone can make a universe but that's it
There have been several instances where depth of power supersedes scale.

Mr Master

Originally posted by deft

Ok, this is possible because the multiverse was unstable
and the cosmic entities still learning about the new reality:

They were still cosmic scale entities though.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Stoic

I can't wait to see how powerful WF really is. Anyone with me on this?
What are his feats as it stands?

Mr Master

Well, Franklin still can't stop Entropy from exercising her purpose.

So, why should she fear him?

Yall are not ingesting the plot for what it is.

Mr Master

Originally posted by abhilegend

Franklin would outlive the death of the universe schmuck. Read again.
I did troll, and you're right. Unlike you I own up when I make an error.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Also lol at sidestepping the issue that Griever only attacked when Franklin was depowered.
I know, lol, she one-shot universal reality warper Owen Reece, but needed Franky depowered. huh
Originally posted by LordGod

No she's not.

Griever being an aspect of entropy
Scans?
Originally posted by LordGod

because she was NOT a multiversal being.

A multiversal being would NOT be so concerned about Franklin's UNIVERSAL power

that they dare not confront him directly until his power is burned out.....

And Griever specifically waited for Franklin to become depowered before she acted.
"burned out?" ... he was de-powered but his powers were still "off the charts" ...

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/43696574_GR9.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Griever one-shot this Owen Reece, an at-least UNIVERSAL REALITY WARPING power.

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/43696563_GR4.jpg

"Owen ... you've had your fun ... reshaping reality."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guess her "fear" is selective lol.

Neeeext!

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordGod

Griever was SO pathetic
Ya, Griever was "SO pathetic" she was erasing entire universeS on the fly:

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/43696571_GR5.jpghttps://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/43696572_GR6.jpg

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/43696573_GR8.jpg

Originally posted by LordGod

she couldn't even beat "simple life forms", like the Fantastic Four-
that's why they and the other heroes were able to fight against her so well.

This was specifically noted by Reed.
Oh, you mean when Reed told us they were SOOO beneath her it was difficult for her to attack them?

She's accustomed to erasing entire universeS. Damn, give the girl a break, lol.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the "simple life forms" ... she was holding back and enjoying their slow demise.

Franklin, who's power was still "off the charts" ... let off his full power and ...

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/43696661_GR10.jpg

STOMPED with a flick of her finger ... LOL!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AND .... Griever was holding back:

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/43696662_GR11.jpg

"I was too easy on your firstborn the last time."

Originally posted by LordGod

She also was confined to a single universe and needed a goddamn space ship
and Reed's teleporter to get into other universes FFS.
thumb up

... I completely agree here. That was not well thought out. Real dumb.

note: The teleporter was her own. And yes, still, she shouldn't need that. Senseless.
Originally posted by LordGod

The concept of entropy might end up being multiversal,
but GRIEVER herself most certainly was not. Not in THIS story at least.
There's no evidence to suggest she isn't.
Originally posted by LordGod

I like how this guy is so arrogant
that he acts like he's the only person capable of reading a story
and comprehending the truth.
Poppycock of the highest order.

You stick to debating and leave the trolling to the other two.

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordGod

He's going to pretend like Griever is multiversal
because entropy ends up being the force that kills the multiverse billions of years in the future,

for the same reason he pretended like Owen gets the feats of the Beyonders
just because he absorbed their powers. lol.

Illogical feat sharing is only permitted when it helps the Marvel side win I guess.
Utter gibberish.

Please, we prefer your clueless opinions rather than unprovoked trolling.

Griever, is .. the "embodiment" ... ("specifically noted by Reed" wink

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/43696561_GR2.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.... of "Entropy" ...

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/43696800_GR13.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.... and "Destruction" ...

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/43696801_GR14.jpg

Sue: "Reed's right, our Multiverse has never faced a greater threat"

Spidey: "Than what, exactly?"

Sue: "Than Her. the Griever."

--------------------------------------------

Wow! ... the Multiverse's greatest threat! ("specifically noted by Reed" wink

This is after the Mad Celestials, Incursions, God Doom and the BeyonderS. thumb up

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The living embodiment of ENTROPY and DESTRUCTION!

... no different than "Eternity, Infinity," or as ("specifically noted by Reed" wink

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/43696562_GR3.jpg

"I acknowledge that these GODLIKE beings exist,,

and I believe this Griever is one of them."

"I accept what she is ... unstoppable" ...

DarkSaint85

....but didn't they then stop her?

abhilegend

Originally posted by Mr Master
I did troll, and you're right. Unlike you I own up when I make an error.

Well if you did, it would be accepting errors in every post.

I know right. Concession accepted.

TheHulkster

WF is KOed by less.

qwertyuiop1998

Been Koed by Superman never is a low showing

Mr Master

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

....but didn't they then stop her?
Not directly.

Reed, as always, found a cheese loophole in the character's built in CIS.

She can't dimension hop without tech. What the f**k?

So basically, Reed and team destroyed her dimension hopping tech,
which then forced her to not destroy them and the universe they were in,
because she would've remained stranded in that void.

So, behind her back during the commotion, they acquired a single dimension hopping cruiser,
and gave her the cruiser go she can boat out of there.

Supreme absurdity I must say.

Slott (writer) had no way to defeat her, so he was forced to make up some real dumb shit.

That's ultra PIS for ya my friend.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Well if you did, it would be accepting errors in every post.
And right back to the trolling.
Originally posted by abhilegend

I know right. Concession accepted.
Are you agreeing with the voices in your head again? ermmhappy

Diesldude

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Stuff like creating universes often implies a lot of direct combat ability. It's *somewhat* circumstantial, sometimes someone can make a universe but that's it, they're, say, using a cosmic forge or such while being personally weak, but if you can wave your hand and make a universe, you can wave your hand and make an energy bolt, black hole, or whatever, so most high creator types can be assumed to be pretty much beyond anyone else who can't create/destroy universes. laughing out loud

lowballing the the WF i see.

LordGod

Originally posted by Mr Master
Griever one-shot this Owen Reece, an at-least UNIVERSAL REALITY WARPING power.

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/43696563_GR4.jpg Actually, Owen just HELPED Franklin create the universes one at a time by anchoring the realities he came up with to reality- the scans were posted a few pages ago. So even calling him a full universal power is a stretch.

But I'm glad you now agree that current Owen isn't beyond universal. :-)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ya, Griever was "SO pathetic" she was erasing entire universeS on the fly:

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/43696571_GR5.jpghttps://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/43696572_GR6.jpg

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/43696573_GR8.jpg That "feat" is borderline unquantifiable when you examine the underlying context behind it.

Griever destroyed some universes that hadn't completely been anchored to the new multiverse they had built, and were therefore more fragile then the properly anchored realities.

This was explained on the following page, when Reed specifically traveled to reality 1,049. It was the universe "most anchored to the fabric of the multiverse" and therefore the most stable platform for their battle with Griever to take place in-
https://i.postimg.cc/Kvzr7566/0.jpg

That's why it didn't crumble like the others did.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Oh, you mean when Reed told us they were SOOO beneath her it was difficult for her to attack them?

She's accustomed to erasing entire universeS. Damn, give the girl a break, lol. Right. She's supposedly this multiversal force, but she cannot kill regular ol human beings because they're -too- basic for her to effect easily. Makes total sense, right?

.......what a powerhouse she is, lol.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Franklin, who's power was still "off the charts" ... let off his full power and ...

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/43696661_GR10.jpg

STOMPED with a flick of her finger ... LOL!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AND .... Griever was holding back:

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/43696662_GR11.jpg

"I was too easy on your firstborn the last time." Yes, Franklin's power was still above Surfer, Thor and Hulk. That means Griever needed at least trans-level power to beat him like that. Skyfather level power tops.

This kind of stuff doesn't help your case at all.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Utter gibberish.

Please, we prefer your clueless opinions rather than unprovoked trolling.

Griever, is .. the "embodiment" ... ("specifically noted by Reed" wink

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/43696561_GR2.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.... of "Entropy" ...

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/43696800_GR13.jpg Again, it literally does not matter what Griever embodies- the feats she personally preformed are what we need to go by. And the FACT is that this "multiversal" being dared not attack until Franklin was depowered. This means she was very concerned about his UNIVERSAL power.

If she were actually touting multiversal power like you're saying, then a mere universal being like Franklin would be completely beneath her notice. The fact that she also required f*cking TECH to universe hop is just icing on the cake, because most -actual- multiversal powers can do that on their own.

Originally posted by Mr Master
https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/43696801_GR14.jpg

Sue: "Reed's right, our Multiverse has never faced a greater threat"

Spidey: "Than what, exactly?"

Sue: "Than Her. the Griever."

--------------------------------------------

Wow! ... the Multiverse's greatest threat! ("specifically noted by Reed" wink

This is after the Mad Celestials, Incursions, God Doom and the BeyonderS. They're obviously referencing the NEW multiverse that THEY had just created- ergo "OUR multiverse". Why would they be talking about a previous multiverse that no longer exists?

Are you seriously trying to elevate Griever above the Beyonders now lol?

Originally posted by Mr Master
The living embodiment of ENTROPY and DESTRUCTION!

... no different than "Eternity, Infinity," or as ("specifically noted by Reed" wink

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/43696562_GR3.jpg

"I acknowledge that these GODLIKE beings exist,,

and I believe this Griever is one of them."

"I accept what she is ... unstoppable" ... Like I said, this purple prose is meaningless, because Griever WAS stopped...by laughable means.

She is apparently the most pathetic "multiversal" being in Marvel lol.

TheHulkster

WF is stopped by a punch to the face.

cdtm

Mr. Master, what's your interpretation of the Superman Punch?

So we can get a baseline of how much force it took to knock WF down. Can you see just about any abstract being knocked down from it? Are there abstracts who would simply ignore its effects?

And most importantly, is MM one of them?

Killemall

stalemate

DarkSaint85

......did MrMaster create an alt account? Below is the post before it was edited to say 'Stalemate'.....

https://i.postimg.cc/vTK73bm6/Screenshot-20191003-140819-2.png

DarkSaint85

Nah sorry, prob a red herring.

Originally posted by Killemall

@Smoki. I'm from Comicvine and I'm well known with this same name. I can vouch for Mr M's fame at my site.

Originally posted by Killemall
It feels good to be here. I have been following your work for a long time mrmaster and you are a legend on a site I am a member of called comicvine. We have had many impostors on our site copying your posts in this site and using it as their argument on our site. There is even a mrmaster in our site with your same logo but I am not sure if that is you but the way he debates is the same so I reply as if it is. We say this comic book forum is the best on the net with some of the most knowledgeable debaters and I think I am ready to talk comics with the big boys lol.

Killemall

They're different people thumb up

On a separate note, have you guys ever found it funny you never see Batman and Bruce Wayne together?

AlbertoJohnAvil

0_0

i'm so confused

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
0_0

i'm so confused

About comics, life in general or....?

AlbertoJohnAvil

What does my personal life have to do with this? lol

AlbertoJohnAvil

and confused about that killemal bit

But glad you edited it. You accuse too much tbh

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
What does my personal life have to do with this? lol

Well you generally seem confused about a lot of things...

Originally, killemall made a post which sounded a lot like Mr Master.

HOWEVER, they can't be the same person, because killemall talks about MrMaster as a different person.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
and confused about that killemal bit

But glad you edited it. You accuse too much tbh

When else have I 'accused'? You make a statement like that, be prepared to back it up, otherwise you're trolling.

LordGod

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
......did MrMaster create an alt account? Below is the post before it was edited to say 'Stalemate'.....

https://i.postimg.cc/vTK73bm6/Screenshot-20191003-140819-2.png Definitely a sock.

He even responded to cdtm's question that was directly to Mr Master: "I never read that story. I don't follow DC good friend." Aside from that, no one else here says "gobbledygook" regularly.

Mr Master forgot what account he was logged in under and outed himself as a socktroll HARD, lol. How f*cking pathetic.

Mr Master

That's hilarious! ... Where the hell's my post? I posted a few minutes ago?

How did it end up there? Is that real?

If so, can you post the whole thing, I'd have to re-write the rest of it again.

AlbertoJohnAvil

I don't mind being wrong on fictional characters, it's not exactly a life purpose that would fulfill people

I question anything and everything until proven right, You on the otherhand ride other people cocktail and seek validation. big difference between me and you buddy laughing out loud

LordGod

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I don't mind being wrong on fictional characters, it's not exactly a life purpose that would fulfill people

I question anything and everything until proven right, You on the otherhand ride other people cocktail and seek validation. big difference between me and you buddy laughing out loud

When did I accuse? And was it false?

If not, then you're just making stuff up.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's hilarious! ... Where the hell's my post? I posted a few minutes ago?

How did it end up there? Is that real?

If so, can you post the whole thing, I'd have to re-write the rest of it again.

Do you want me to? It seemed weirdly like you.

But it can't be you. Killemall talks about how amazing a poster you are in his other posts....

Galan007

Ran a sock check, and Killemall's IP matches yours, Mr M.

Explain yourself.

-K-M-

What a twist

https://media.giphy.com/media/12aW6JtfvUdcdO/giphy.gif

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordGod
Definitely a sock.

Aside from that, no one else here says "gobbledygook" regularly.

Mr Master forgot what account he was logged in under and outed himself as a socktroll HARD, lol. How f*cking pathetic.
I just noticed you're riding MY cyber schlong HARD.

Infinitely more pathetic.

Oh, here we go, so you think you got something? ... WHAT?

This has nothing to do with the thread or comics, so stop trolling, yet again.

Do you even know what a sock-troll is?

Plenty of users have separate accounts, so long as they don't use it
in secret to help defend themselves, it's all good in my book.

MrMind

that's the thing with kmc
with trashes like hulkster, jbl, alberto keep coming back
once in a while you do get a good new debator like lordgod thumb up

Originally posted by Galan007
Ran a sock check, and Killemall's IP matches yours, Mr M.

Explain yourself.

it's funny cos he once accused you of having socks in team doctor manhattan vs team molecule man thread back in 2017, when he got proven wrong he had one of the most hilarious meltdown. I don't know if you still remember that thread. It was great, pure comedy

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordGod

Stfu, trollsock.
Tell your sister, better to get rid of it, cause I ain't coming back.

DarkSaint85

Dieseldude, please stay on topic thumb up

-K-M-

Guess Alberto needs to give Detective DS an apology

celeyhyga17

Galan has all kinds of socks.

Short socks. Crew socks. Ankle socks. Thigh highs.

-K-M-

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Dieseldude, please stay on topic thumb up

His post literally just disappeared. Galan?

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by -K-M-
His post literally just disappeared. Galan?

DIESELDUDE IS ANOTHER SOCK!!!!!

OK I'm making that one up lol.

Diesldude

Originally posted by -K-M-
His post literally just disappeared. Galan? oh crap and it was good one too. I blame Darksaint for reporting my off topic post. thumb up

TheHulkster

Originally posted by MrMind
that's the thing with kmc
with trashes like hulkster, jbl, alberto keep coming back
once in a while you do get a good new debator like lordgod thumb up

it's funny cos he once accused you of having socks in team doctor manhattan vs team molecule man thread back in 2017, when he got proven wrong he had one of the most hilarious meltdown. I don't know if you still remember that thread. It was great, pure comedy

LOL at "trashes". And reported

cdtm

Originally posted by -K-M-
Guess Alberto needs to give Detective DS an apology

No idea if all this is an April Fools day prank or not.

Mainly, because I don't know what day it is. Or year.

But Darksaint knowing he's a sock, and Galan confirming it, makes me wonder if he's more then he appears..? Galan's sock? Perhaps Raz's sock?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

Ran a sock check, and Killemall's IP matches yours, Mr M.

Explain yourself.
Beats me. Let's ask Killemall.

I could ask several cats to explain themselves,
but I don't care about debating separate personalities anymore.

Perhaps I made a sock acct to pat myself on the back ... ONCE!

Oh wait, he gave me props but all of kmc as well.

Also, this cat is from Comicvine apparently.
It's a real screen name, he's evidently well known over there.

Check out his debating style, nothing like mine.

-------------------------------------------------------

You should know weird shit has been happening in kmc's interface for a while,
posts disappearing without reason,
entire threads mysteriously going up in smoke,
accts getting locked.

I replied, and my post ended up in Killemall's screen name according to Saint,
I never saw this until Saint posted what seemed like a snapshot.

Diesldude

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
DIESELDUDE IS ANOTHER SOCK!!!!!

OK I'm making that one up lol. you snap did I respond while logged in as carver. laughing out loud

Galan007

Originally posted by -K-M-
His post literally just disappeared. Galan? I didn't see his original post, but this thread hasn't been edited on our end at all:
https://i.imgur.com/ijFL5XM.jpg

*All edits we make to a thread automatically populate in the "Moderator Notes" section, as you can see with this thread:
https://i.imgur.com/zxOgNbC.jpg

Not sure what happened, but hopefully Diesel can repost. thumb up

Mr Master

Well what about me?

There's another member with my ip you said. ... wtf is that?

Or are ya phukin with me G? mad

PS: My post went into limbo as well btw.

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well what about me?

There's another member with my ip you said. ... wtf is that?

Or are ya phukin with me G? mad

PS: My post went into limbo as well btw. I'm very serious.

Surely you wouldn't have me think Killemall's post(the one DarkSaint screen-capped) + an IP address that matches yours is just some strange coincidence, right? I'm sure you can understand why that's... Pretty hard to believe.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Mr Master
Beats me. Let's ask Killemall.

I could ask several cats to explain themselves,
but I don't care about debating separate personalities anymore.

Perhaps I made a sock acct to pat myself on the back ... ONCE!

Oh wait, he gave me props but all of kmc as well.

Also, this cat is from Comicvine apparently.
It's a real screen name, he's evidently well known over there.

Check out his debating style, nothing like mine.

-------------------------------------------------------

You should know weird shit has been happening in kmc's interface for a while,
posts disappearing without reason,
entire threads mysteriously going up in smoke,
accts getting locked.

I replied, and my post ended up in Killemall's screen name according to Saint,
I never saw this until Saint posted what seemed like a snapshot.

So....You posted, but killemall (a guy who idolises you; fair enough) managed to get your post. A dude who's been round since 2013 but has 16posts to his name.

Then ..... killemall edited his post to say 'stalemate' (or was it you?) within like 2 minutes.

At this rate, I can't trust anything I read now. Maybe Carver's posts are actually Galan's.

celeyhyga17

Originally posted by Mr Master

PS: My post went into limbo as well btw.
laughing

What is that?
Like 3 or 4 times in the past few months?

Galan007

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Maybe Carver's posts are actually Galan's. I enjoy making myself want to kill myself. thumb up

cdtm

No one's concerned Darksaint just happens to have screen caps?

Do you have a macro that auto screen caps everything, just in case? smile

(Not trying to derail, but I love coincidental setups like this. I mean, what are the odds anyone would suspect they'd be getting screencapped in a sock plot?)

Galan007

For obvious reasons, I'm going to close this for now. I'll reopen once things get sorted...

Galan007

Reopening.

LordGod

Well I see Mr. Socker won't be joining us again until the new year. Justice is served lol.

That aside I still think WF has this in the bag. He is multiversal+++, while Owen isn't even universal. The outcome here is a complete no brainer.

DeadpoolXXX

The irony at play here

staxamillion

just a quick outside of the box question

since franklin effectively created the marvel multiverse as we know, (with help) but since created the multiple universes would if he can still affect those universes then be multiversal?

Diesldude

Originally posted by LordGod
Actually, Owen just HELPED Franklin create the universes one at a time by anchoring the realities he came up with to reality- the scans were posted a few pages ago. So even calling him a full universal power is a stretch.

But I'm glad you now agree that current Owen isn't beyond universal. :-)

That "feat" is borderline unquantifiable when you examine the underlying context behind it.

Griever destroyed some universes that hadn't completely been anchored to the new multiverse they had built, and were therefore more fragile then the properly anchored realities.

This was explained on the following page, when Reed specifically traveled to reality 1,049. It was the universe "most anchored to the fabric of the multiverse" and therefore the most stable platform for their battle with Griever to take place in-
https://i.postimg.cc/Kvzr7566/0.jpg

That's why it didn't crumble like the others did.

Right. She's supposedly this multiversal force, but she cannot kill regular ol human beings because they're -too- basic for her to effect easily. Makes total sense, right?

.......what a powerhouse she is, lol.

Yes, Franklin's power was still above Surfer, Thor and Hulk. That means Griever needed at least trans-level power to beat him like that. Skyfather level power tops.

This kind of stuff doesn't help your case at all.

Again, it literally does not matter what Griever embodies- the feats she personally preformed are what we need to go by. And the FACT is that this "multiversal" being dared not attack until Franklin was depowered. This means she was very concerned about his UNIVERSAL power.

If she were actually touting multiversal power like you're saying, then a mere universal being like Franklin would be completely beneath her notice. The fact that she also required f*cking TECH to universe hop is just icing on the cake, because most -actual- multiversal powers can do that on their own.

They're obviously referencing the NEW multiverse that THEY had just created- ergo "OUR multiverse". Why would they be talking about a previous multiverse that no longer exists?

Are you seriously trying to elevate Griever above the Beyonders now lol?

Like I said, this purple prose is meaningless, because Griever WAS stopped...by laughable means.

She is apparently the most pathetic "multiversal" being in Marvel lol.

I have to disagree with you. Griever is as powerful as the other side was saying so losing to her is no low showing.

It's possible that she was waiting for Franklin to finish creating uuniverses before she acted because she wanted the maximum number of universes to destroy so she waited until Franklin was done creating them. After he was done, she acted because he had served her purpose.

Here is why I think WF is beyond MM and Franklin combine.

1- Griever can destroy them because she's really powerful and what does she do, destroy universes and I think She had the power to destroy MM AND Franklin like Mr. Master was saying.

2- WF had his own Griever(barbatos). He can destroy universes and unlike the Griever he doesn't need a ship to travel between universes. So barbatos is actually more powerful than Griever, serves similar purpose but without the limitations. And We saw how WF in the 6th dimension treats him.

WF treats a being (that is similar and possibly more powerful than the Griever that slayed MM and would have killed Franklin) like a rodent he's about feed his pet snake.

With all the power that MM and Franklin had, they used it up creating universes for less than a decade but the WF has been doing the exact same thing since the beginning of time and he's still full powered. The power he has has not run out and probably never run out. This means he has more power to work with than MM and a Franklin ever did.

This is why I'm taking WF in this match.