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1. H2H combat only
2. Both can use their common gadgets

ozz! hope all's well man. this thread has been done many times if you search it. usually the first one is pretty close but i think bats takes it more often than not if they're in street clothes. bats has too much in the second. too many 'common' things for him and his typical arsenal is just more powerful than dd's.

Batman in both! He has been getting a real push lately.

batman or nightwing would win easily, i think a more even fight is daredevil vs tim drake

We can all agree on this

If it's Elektra as Daredevil I think she can take round 1. Matt maybe too, if his push has stuck.

Bruce for sure wins with gadgets though.

Bruce stalemated Val. 3 boot version but still. He can take Matt.

Batman in both scenarios.

Originally posted by Smurph
If it's Elektra as Daredevil I think she can take round 1. Matt maybe too, if his push has stuck.

Bruce for sure wins with gadgets though.

i see elektra in h2h as matt without a filter. taht's why she usually comes across as the better fighter. i think matt>elektra if he REALLY needs it though. but i agree--both can take bruce for a few if it's straight street clothes. maybe 3/10. bruce for the majority though.

I don't think that's unreasonable but I do think Elektra's (more) superhuman since Zdarsky's run

Originally posted by Smurph
Plus this stuff from the same series

https://i.ibb.co/pyg0cRW/IMG-1699.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/TcQpPjz/IMG-1697.jpg https://i.ibb.co/3MBxddp/IMG-1698.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/5TQ7dzs/IMG-1701.jpg

I know Bats has also been getting a push but I don't see him doing the same as casually.

She also took out Count Nefaria but I'm just gonna lol about that stupidity.

Originally posted by Smurph
I don't think that's unreasonable but I do think Elektra's (more) superhuman since Zdarsky's run



I know Bats has also been getting a push but I don't see him doing the same as casually.

She also took out Count Nefaria but I'm just gonna lol about that stupidity.

I see your bullet, and raise you Superman's baseball which even Jon couldn't hit.

https://imgur.com/a/kOZKa

Nonetheless, I don't see Batman moving as fast mid fight. At least, not as casually and not without PIS involved.

Originally posted by Smurph


Nonetheless, I don't see Batman moving as fast mid fight. At least, not as casually and not without PIS involved.

Sounds like what a lawyer would say sneer

Originally posted by Smurph
If it's Elektra as Daredevil I think she can take round 1. Matt maybe too, if his push has stuck.

Bruce for sure wins with gadgets though.
Bruce would win against Elektra too. Originally posted by Smurph
I don't think that's unreasonable but I do think Elektra's (more) superhuman since Zdarsky's run



I know Bats has also been getting a push but I don't see him doing the same as casually.

She also took out Count Nefaria but I'm just gonna lol about that stupidity. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I see your bullet, and raise you Superman's baseball which even Jon couldn't hit.

https://imgur.com/a/kOZKa Originally posted by Smurph


Nonetheless, I don't see Batman moving as fast mid fight. At least, not as casually and not without PIS involved.


The sheer dissonance is ****ing hilarious.

Katana slices six bullets in one swipe.

https://imgur.com/a/ym2RYpg

Five bullets

https://imgur.com/a/wbWh6yQ

Six bullets

https://imgur.com/a/6Ubb24l

Might be the fastest street level character in comics.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sounds like what a lawyer would say sneer I yam what I yam

Originally posted by abhilegend
Bruce would win against Elektra too.


The sheer dissonance is ****ing hilarious. I don't think you know what that word means

Also, lol, Katana isn't in this thread

I think he means why is it PIS for Batman and not Elektra?

Oh, is he arguing that it's PIS for Elektra?

I mean, those are three moments in as many issues. The intent and consistency both seem clear to me. And it lines up with her boost since 2021/2 or so.

As for Bruce, I don't see the showings as remotely comparable. I love a good "because Batman" moment as much as anyone though.

Originally posted by Smurph
Oh, is he arguing that it's PIS for Elektra?

I mean, those are three moments in as many issues. The intent and consistency both seem clear to me. And it lines up with her boost since 2021/2 or so.

As for Bruce, I don't see the showings as remotely comparable. I love a good "because Batman" moment as much as anyone though.

i mean, there is also him dodging HV after it's fired....which you have seen. But in Batman (2016):
https://i.imgur.com/4E4PhCa.jpeg

And:
https://i.imgur.com/Kgk2UxW.jpeg (he was bleeding before the gunfire, so its not from the bullets)

And:
https://i.imgur.com/W1Bp9LU.png

And:
https://i.imgur.com/4ngV6zb.jpeg

And there's the baseball scene above. 5 moments in as many issues, from one series alone (so not looking at Detective Comics, or Batman confidential, or Batman (1940), or any JL related titles, or any - you get the point.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
i mean, there is also him dodging HV after it's fired....which you have seen. But in Batman (2016):
https://i.imgur.com/4E4PhCa.jpeg

And:
https://i.imgur.com/Kgk2UxW.jpeg (he was bleeding before the gunfire, so its not from the bullets)

And:
https://i.imgur.com/W1Bp9LU.png

And:
https://i.imgur.com/4ngV6zb.jpeg

And there's the baseball scene above. 5 moments in as many issues, from one series alone (so not looking at Detective Comics, or Batman confidential, or Batman (1940), or any JL related titles, or any - you get the point. Those are all good, but except for the baseball scene they're not as good as Elektra moving her arm faster than the bullet fired point blank in front of her.

And the baseball scene is great, but it's one of those "impossible but possible because Batman" scenes that I see as being much more about Batman's cool factor than about the speed of his arms.

Originally posted by Smurph
Those are all good, but except for the baseball scene they're not as good as Elektra moving her arm faster than the bullet fired point blank in front of her.

And the baseball scene is great, but it's one of those "impossible but possible because Batman" scenes that I see as being much more about Batman's cool factor than about the speed of his arms.

But the point being that Batman is consistently shown as fast. And I would argue the scene where he moves his entire upper body from a bullet fired point blank at him through a door is more impressive, or him moving his head out of a point-blank girder thrown his way by Gotham (which is thrown hard enough to obliterate the Batmobile) is more impressive.

And then he is avoiding gunfire shot at his back whilst heavily injured. I take your point on the missile/Batarang, though that is more of an accuracy feat tbh.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But the point being that Batman is consistently shown as fast. And I would argue the scene where he moves his entire upper body from a bullet fired point blank at him through a door is more impressive, or him moving his head out of a point-blank girder thrown his way by Gotham (which is thrown hard enough to obliterate the Batmobile) is more impressive.

And then he is avoiding gunfire shot at his back whilst heavily injured. I take your point on the missile/Batarang, though that is more of an accuracy feat tbh. He's consistently shown as fast, sure, but those are all feats well within Matt's norm (he has a more impressive version of the avoiding-gunfire-while-injured feat from like two issues ago). And yet Matt notes that Elektra is definitely faster than him.

What sets the Elektra feat apart, in my view, is that she moves entirely after the bullet is fired, and it's point blank. Also, we have a bunch of explicit text from the Red Fist Saga confirming that both Matt and Elektra got speed and strength upgrades when they became King and Queen of The Fist. And the Fist has since disbanded but Elektra is still pushed as faster - so idk if it's the same magic upgrade or just Marvel pushing her in her new role as Daredevil. Because even prior to the Fist upgrade, she was doing similar stuff against the Bullseye clones:

https://i.postimg.cc/JsD0VPqj/IMG-2573.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/LnshvHgC/IMG-2576.jpg


Whatever the cause, now we're getting stuff like "too fast for bullets" as captioned in the fight against Punisher 2. Batman is fast but I don't think he's ever been described as too fast for bullets /shrug

And the Batman feats shown are all prior to his upgrade where all of his injuries etc are gone and he's now faster:
https://i.postimg.cc/v4517PW3/RCO004-1735185449.jpg

But even before this, I wouldn't bet against comics not saying he was too fast for bullets:

https://i.postimg.cc/Z9ZWwrHZ/rCBL3EX.jpg

But we have more bullet dodging at point blank/close range - again, this is before he gets upgraded:
https://i.imgur.com/Htg9cEK.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/opjjrQ9.jpeg

Just like Neo.

Yep, that's fast, but less impressive than the Elektra showings. Especially when we can see that she moves entirely after the trigger is pulled.

Here's the quote I was thinking about where Matt calls her the fastest.

https://i.postimg.cc/K1Xc235R/IMG-2589.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/DW67Lj3X/IMG-2590.jpg

Again, I think Matt can match all of Bruce's showings vs gunfire, and Elektra is faster than him.

That's...a bit shaky, imo.

It's like saying Angel Breaker has better bullet feats (which are far more impressive than Elektra's/Matts, btw):
https://i.postimg.cc/c6ZN6FHd/wTSqw1v.png

And yet, Batman isn't too slow to disarm her:
https://imgur.com/a/MTYkslR

Which would be the same outcome here, only Batman in round 1 would be moving faster (without 10 tons of gear and a cape etc weighing him down) and in round 2 would have all of his gear.

I never called Batman slow, I said that Elektra is faster. The Angel Breaker scans don't disprove that.

I was making the point that Batman is fast enough to disarm a character who has a much more impressive feat than Elektra's.

Whilst weighed down by all his equipment, and before he had his upgrade.

I mean for what it's worth, Elektra has similar feats to the Angel Breaker one: https://imgur.com/Xpmuvpj

But the comparison between her and AB seems neither here nor there because AB isn't in the fight and Batman's "feat" doesn't establish that he's faster than AB in any event.

Originally posted by Smurph
I mean for what it's worth, Elektra has similar feats to the Angel Breaker one: https://imgur.com/Xpmuvpj

But the comparison between her and AB seems neither here nor there because AB isn't in the fight and Batman's "feat" doesn't establish that he's faster than AB in any event.
Mathematically, blocking an object launched at a distance requires moving at only a fraction of its speed.

For example, if a bullet is fired at Elektra from 60 feet away, she would only need to move her arms about 1 foot in the time it takes the bullet to cover that distance. This means she would only need to move at roughly 1/60th of the bullet's speed to block it - still a superhuman level of perception.

I believe Superman threw that baseball at a speed far exceeding that of a bullet. However, I'm not opposed to the idea that Batman and Elektra are comparable in combat speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
Mathematically, blocking an object launched at a distance requires moving at only a fraction of its speed.

For example, if a bullet is fired at Elektra from 60 feet away, she would only need to move her arms about 1 foot in the time it takes the bullet to cover that distance. This means she would only need to move at roughly 1/60th of the bullet's speed to block it - still a superhuman level of perception.

I believe Superman threw that baseball at a speed far exceeding that of a bullet. However, I'm not opposed to the idea that Batman and Elektra are comparable in combat speed. I agree with most of this with the caveats that I disregard the baseball feat and, while Bats and Elektra are comparable, I think she has the edge.

As for your bit about the math, that's why I think this is more impressive than the other feats being discussed:

Originally posted by Smurph


https://i.ibb.co/pyg0cRW/IMG-1699.jpg
Although others like the Bullseye ones are certainly good too.

Originally posted by Smurph
I don't think you know what that word means

Also, lol, Katana isn't in this thread
Oh right, you're the wordsmith. Originally posted by Smurph
Oh, is he arguing that it's PIS for Elektra?

I mean, those are three moments in as many issues. The intent and consistency both seem clear to me. And it lines up with her boost since 2021/2 or so.

As for Bruce, I don't see the showings as remotely comparable. I love a good "because Batman" moment as much as anyone though. Originally posted by Smurph
Those are all good, but except for the baseball scene they're not as good as Elektra moving her arm faster than the bullet fired point blank in front of her.

And the baseball scene is great, but it's one of those "impossible but possible because Batman" scenes that I see as being much more about Batman's cool factor than about the speed of his arms.
You want to see which one is faster, a bullet or heat vision from Superman?

Also lulz at cool factor for Batman but speed feat for Elektra argument.

Unless you want to commit to the position that Batman moves faster than heat vision, your position collapses in on itself.

Try that on for some, uh, "dissonance"

Also, by the by

https://i.postimg.cc/7Zp21wGZ/IMG-1702.jpg

For what that's worth

Amanda Waller and her files already labeled Batman as "super human". He can take either Elektra or DD. Speed isn't THAT much of a difference to decide who will win. I feel skill is and Batman is overall more skilled, with SIMILAR stats.

Elektra has been superhuman for a long time. The Fist upgrade just made it moreso.

Same with Matt.

And I don't think Bruce is more skilled than either. They're all generally peers but she's faster.

Originally posted by Smurph
Elektra has been superhuman for a long time. The Fist upgrade just made it moreso.

Same with Matt.

And I don't think Bruce is more skilled than either. They're all generally peers but she's faster.

I'd rank Val far ahead of either and Batman stalemated him. Even surprising him in ariel combat

Originally posted by Smurph
Unless you want to commit to the position that Batman moves faster than heat vision, your position collapses in on itself.

Try that on for some, uh, "dissonance" Originally posted by Smurph
Also, by the by

https://i.postimg.cc/7Zp21wGZ/IMG-1702.jpg

For what that's worth
Elektra's feats are feats, Batman's feats are "Do you really think this happened, bro". Originally posted by Smurph
Also, by the by

https://i.postimg.cc/7Zp21wGZ/IMG-1702.jpg

For what that's worth
Ah, all energy blasts are the same tactic. Here's Batman dodging heat vision where it's specifically stated to be concentrated sunlight.

https://postimg.cc/McJRnYgY
https://postimg.cc/SXL9CMhb
https://postimg.cc/zb0RPYvd

Mind showing the speed of Nefaria's blasts?

Originally posted by Smurph
Elektra has been superhuman for a long time. The Fist upgrade just made it moreso.

Same with Matt.

And I don't think Bruce is more skilled than either. They're all generally peers but she's faster.
Daredevil and Elektra are superhuman based on feats. Batman isn't superhuman despite his feats which are better than both because "Do you really think this happened bro".

Originally posted by Smurph
Unless you want to commit to the position that Batman moves faster than heat vision, your position collapses in on itself.

Try that on for some, uh, "dissonance" ^as I said

Scaling Bruce's speed off Clark's HV is incredibly silly. The Nefaria showing just shows that everybody has silly feats, but I'm not suggesting Elektra's speed should scale off of it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Daredevil and Elektra are superhuman based on feats. Batman isn't superhuman despite his feats which are better than both because "Do you really think this happened bro". Feel free to quote where I said Batman isn't superhuman.

Otherwise stop putting words in my mouth and take a breath. Seems like your only argument is attacking a poor understanding of what I said.

Originally posted by Smurph
^as I said

Scaling Bruce's speed off Clark's HV is incredibly silly. The Nefaria showing just shows that everybody has silly feats, but I'm not suggesting Elektra's speed should scale off of it.
You'd have to provide feats for Nefaria's blasts to scale elektra from it. I'm game if you are. Originally posted by Smurph
Feel free to quote where I said Batman isn't superhuman.

Otherwise stop putting words in my mouth and take a breath. Seems like your only argument is attacking a poor understanding of what I said.
So what makes Elektra faster than Batman as you claimed? Certainly not feats.

Feats.

Do you think that Batman moves faster than Superman's heat vision?

Yes.

Originally posted by Smurph
Feats.

Do you think that Batman moves faster than Superman's heat vision?
Do you really think Elektra is faster than a bullet?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Do you really think Elektra is faster than a bullet? Yes. "I'm too quick for his bullets".

Cool. shes Cassandra level lmao

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes.

I think that's moronic, but if that's your version of Batman, there's no point in trying to discuss.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Cool. shes Cassandra level lmao You seem bothered

Originally posted by Smurph


I think that's moronic, but if that's your version of Batman, there's no point in trying to discuss.

he has the feats.

Originally posted by Smurph
You seem bothered

Huh? Cassandra is faster than bullets too. Come on, bro. Elektra feats are just basic in streets

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
he has the feats.

🤦🏿

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
he has the feats. Not under the rules

Originally posted by Smurph
Not under the rules

It's not PIS though if we have an explanation (that isn't 'no universe explanation exists').

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Huh? Cassandra is faster than bullets too. Come on, bro. Elektra feats are just basic in streets Come on, bro.

Batman has just faced a wide variety of characters, compared to Matt. When has Matt faced off against someone on Karate Kid's level??

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's not PIS though if we have an explanation (that isn't 'no universe explanation exists'). Sure it is, if the explanation doesn't account for the induced stupidity.

Originally posted by Smurph
Sure it is, if the explanation doesn't account for the induced stupidity.

Bat-Mite watches over him.

https://i.postimg.cc/kMN4FL5m/BatMite.png

Same way a normal human boy named Billy gets his superpowered feats thanks to the protection of his gods, or Hal/Guy/John/Kyle get the powers bestowed on them from Oans, Batman gets the protection of a 5D imp.

Well then he doesn't have the feats.

No outside help, after all.

Originally posted by Smurph
Well then he doesn't have the feats.

No outside help, after all.

I think I edited just as you posted - yeah, agreed, no outside help, in which case Billy Batson gets no Shazam powers, none of the Lanterns get help from Oa, Captain Britain gets no help from etc etc.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think I edited just as you posted - yeah, agreed, no outside help, in which case Billy Batson gets no Shazam powers, none of the Lanterns get help from Oa, Captain Britain gets no help from etc etc. I mean, I don't think the analogy holds, but in any event they're not in the thread.

So I return to Elektra Daredevil being faster than Bruce.

Not by feats

Originally posted by Smurph
I mean, I don't think the analogy holds, but in any event they're not in the thread.

So I return to Elektra Daredevil being faster than Bruce.

Cool. But its not PIS, as he gets his abilities in comics thanks to Bat-Mite watching over him, as shown in canon comics. Just as Guy Gardner gets his abilities thanks to the munificence of Oa.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool. But it's not PIS, as he gets his abilities in comics thanks to Bat-Mite watching over him, as shown in canon comics. Just as Guy Gardner gets his abilities thanks to the munificence of Oa. I don't agree, I do think it's PIS and I don't think there's an analogy between Guy's power source and Bat-Mite intervening as Bruce's guardian. But whether you prefer the No PIS or No Outside Help rule makes no difference here.

I respectfully disagree that it's between those two choices, as it's neither. Nor does it have to be an active intervention. I'm sure you will be able to think of an analogue, where a character gains abilities and thus feats, thanks to a 3rd source.

But we're not told that Bat-Mite created Bruce or imbued him with all of his strength and skill and intellect. We're just told that Bat-Mite watches over Bruce. He's a guardian imp but he's not Bruce's super soldier serum, is he?

Moreover the idea of Bat-Mite's intervention begs the question of whether this is even a speed feat. Seems equally possible that BM slowed the HV down or adjusted time or let Bruce get hit and then fixed him and adjusted everybody's perception.

I don't feel driven to sort through those because it seems like nothing turns on it. In any event, if the only explanation for the feat not being PIS is "an imp did it" then it still looks like inadmissible plot induced stupidity to me.

True,how the feat is performed is moot. What matters is that it happened.

Elektra could well be faster, maybe. But it wouldn't matter

I concede that if Bat-Mite was manipulating time or reality on Batman's behalf, Elektra's speed edge might not matter.

Originally posted by Smurph
Yes. "I'm too quick for his bullets".
You mean to say she can run at supersonic speed then? Because modern bullets usually travel at Mach 1 speed.

Show us Elektra running at supersonic speed then.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You mean to say she can run at supersonic speed then? Because modern bullets usually travel at Mach 1 speed.

Show us Elektra running at supersonic speed then. lol no, I don't mean to say that. Strawman harder.

he can't.

so the bat side has degenerated to needing the imp? c'mon.... whether it's canon or not it is definitely against the spirit of the thread. no one who ever puts bats in a vs thread relies on the fact that he's being watched over. i mean seriously wt actual f?

so bats reflexes>lightspeed, it's NOT pis, and he can beat anyone below an imp because well, if he's in trouble the imp would just save him. wth is happening here...? beyond the ridiculousness of falling on that, where is the proof that it was the imp helping him move that fast, as opposed to it being straight PIS? and what? we now attribute NOTHING to batman himself but rather we chalk everything up to the imp? that's....utterly ridiculous.

it's also not close to the shazam or oan analogy because we KNOW they are aided by outside sources. but more that IS the source. everything they do is a result of their 'outside' power. is superman aided by the outside because of the sun? with batman we have no clue what the imp has done in terms of his every day feats. he punched and damaged a tree. no longer a bat feat but an imp feat? crazy. you've literally just called into question every feat batman has ever performed

Originally posted by abhilegend
You mean to say she can run at supersonic speed then? Because modern bullets usually travel at Mach 1 speed.

Show us Elektra running at supersonic speed then.

The math ain't mathing

Its always PIS when it doesn't suit someone argument lol

Batman has already blitzed Katana who's way faster than Elektra is

What's to stop Batman from simply blitzing Elektra and breaking her neck? Nothing because Elektra is unimpressive

Originally posted by Smurph
lol no, I don't mean to say that. Strawman harder.
Why not? Too quick for bullets but no supersonic speed feats? Sounds PIS to me. Originally posted by leonidas
he can't.

so the bat side has degenerated to needing the imp? c'mon.... whether it's canon or not it is definitely against the spirit of the thread. no one who ever puts bats in a vs thread relies on the fact that he's being watched over. i mean seriously wt actual f?

so bats reflexes>lightspeed, it's NOT pis, and he can beat anyone below an imp because well, if he's in trouble the imp would just save him. wth is happening here...? beyond the ridiculousness of falling on that, where is the proof that it was the imp helping him move that fast, as opposed to it being straight PIS? and what? we now attribute NOTHING to batman himself but rather we chalk everything up to the imp? that's....utterly ridiculous.

it's also not close to the shazam or oan analogy because we KNOW they are aided by outside sources. but more that IS the source. everything they do is a result of their 'outside' power. is superman aided by the outside because of the sun? with batman we have no clue what the imp has done in terms of his every day feats. he punched and damaged a tree. no longer a bat feat but an imp feat? crazy. you've literally just called into question every feat batman has ever performed
By the similar vein, when has Elektra moved supersonic to be shown too quick for bullets?

Originally posted by RadZoa
Its always PIS when it doesn't suit someone argument lol

Batman has already blitzed Katana who's way faster than Elektra is

What's to stop Batman from simply blitzing Elektra and breaking her neck? Nothing because Elektra is unimpressive

Does he blitz Slade and break his neck before he could react? Bane? Bronze Tiger? Lady Shiva?

vs Bronze Tiger

https://i.ibb.co/jP9V2VdN/main-qimg-adf880f5bd13c874d28a47a4dcd65a87-lq.jpg
upload host

vs Cayman...

https://i.ibb.co/hJnM9B1C/main-qimg-36f65c5ee8b5e042fe6623613c508636-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/TBT4smXb/main-qimg-c6ccaddf6c9100ca2a7da7fa7f82ce3b-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/WW7MRXHP/main-qimg-df1e11b27b6d5f2a03088c41d0278e41-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/CKmGX6cc/main-qimg-0fbb81f88f0ba9ef814b1d64aca50dad-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/wHfzVct/main-qimg-f30917e1534ab701473532937c28d453-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/rfRNdV1Y/main-qimg-2c42c0fdfdba5e01e1ac073a3c58d59e-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/76qWCz1/main-qimg-413b825072fddae61007afd12f9bfc9e-lq.jpg
upload host

vs Lady Shiva. Where was Mxy at in these fights?


https://i.ibb.co/hFJ7H1Zt/Batman-Vs-Lady-Shiva-632bd23c4570d5-86969938.webp
https://i.ibb.co/fzcD70v1/img-1-1742615087748.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why not? Too quick for bullets but no supersonic speed feats? Sounds PIS to me.
By the similar vein, when has Elektra moved supersonic to be shown too quick for bullets? That's not how burden of proof works.

She was too quick for bullets when she moved after the bullet was fired point blank, deflected it, and said "I'm too quick for bullets". Given how often she's done it, especially recently, it's well established as her combat speed. And given that we know she's gotten magical speed and strength amps recently, there's not even a good narrative basis for your whining.

Elektra doesn't sprint around like Quicksilver. I have no notion of her sprinting speed. It doesn't matter, since combat speed and running speed have little relationship in comics.

Batman, on the other hand, cannot move at speeds nearing lightspeed in a fight... without PIS. I have no doubt that you'll cry otherwise because you can't help yourself when presented with an opportunity to double down on something stupid, but it doesn't change the obvious.

Originally posted by carver9
vs Lady Shiva. Where was Mxy at in these fights?


https://i.ibb.co/hFJ7H1Zt/Batman-Vs-Lady-Shiva-632bd23c4570d5-86969938.webp
https://i.ibb.co/fzcD70v1/img-1-1742615087748.jpg

Shiva>>Elektra, IMO.

Also, he did decently well against PC Karate Kid. He also statelated 3boot Val as well.

https://i.ibb.co/ynPcZDfy/BM.webp

Just to point out for all these supposedly 'aha gotcha' scans from Carver - BatMite knew Batman wasn't in real danger. None of them were going to kill, and Batman always (even if eventually) wins. Literally said in DC - Batman always wins.

Gotcha.

Originally posted by Smurph
That's not how burden of proof works.

It apparently did when Batman dodged heat vision on several occasions.

With all her amps and whatnot, it'd be easy to show her running or moving at supersonic speed which requires her to be faster than bullets.

No, but you can't be supersonic speed in combat and human level otherwise, that's not how speed works.



Elektra also can't move at supersonic speeds in a fight by the same logic without PIS. You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It apparently did when Batman dodged heat vision on several occasions.

With all her amps and whatnot, it'd be easy to show her running or moving at supersonic speed which requires her to be faster than bullets.

No, but you can't be supersonic speed in combat and human level otherwise, that's not how speed works.



Elektra also can't move at supersonic speeds in a fight by the same logic without PIS. You can't have it both ways. Batman can dodge heat vision, that's not PIS. Streets dodge lasers all the time.

Batman moving after the HV was fired, is another story. I've seen him do that on exactly one occasion, so I'm not sure what the "several" others are.

Conversely, I've shown you Elektra repeatedly intercepting point blank gunfire and moving after the bullet is fired. And there are other recent similar feats. The comics keep emphasizing her speed.

There's no "having it both ways". Batman cannot move at speeds comparable to heat vision. Elektra can react within the span of point blank gunfire. There's no contradiction there. Insisting otherwise just comes off as whiny.

Originally posted by Smurph
Batman can dodge heat vision, that's not PIS. Streets dodge lasers all the time.

Batman moving after the HV was fired, is another story. I've seen him do that on exactly one occasion, so I'm not sure what the "several" others are.

Here's Batman reflecting heat vision back with a mirror.

https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB7INZ

That's not dodging heat vision like street levelers dodge lasers.

Street level characters do that too. Why's Elektra so special? Also where are her supersonic speed feats to show her faster than bullets?



Of course there is. Unless you can show Elektra moving around in supersonic speed, her being faster than bullets is as much PIS.

That's cool but it's not much of a speed feat.

You're plainly wrong about how PIS and proof works. Not much more to say about that.

Originally posted by Smurph
That's cool but it's not much of a speed feat.

You're plainly wrong about how PIS and proof works. Not much more to say about that.
Of course, only deflecting bullets are, deflection of heat vision surely isn't.

You're verging on Thorbag territory where Thor is as fast as Superman because reasons and PIS. Just say you've got nothing.

no, the issue is that the HV was an ongoing attack. Batman's use of the mirror is clever but it's not a reflex feat.

I've proven my point about Elektra's feats. Your refusal to engage in good faith isn't my problem. Why would I waste my time repeating myself? All that you'll do is plug your ears and whine.

the mirror feat is no more impressive than you holding up a mirror and reflecting a laser pointer's light.... the beam was constant. he could see it. totally different if the beam is fired and in the space of time that it takes to reach him bats grabs a mirror and reflects it. those two things are universes apart. not sure how anyone can be realistically arguing that bats has legit ftl combat reflexes. moving in the space between when a bullet is fired and reaches its target and moving in the space between when a laser is fired and reaches its targets are orders of magnitude in terms of difference. street levellers do the former all the time--or do things similar to it all the time. true ftl speed feats? without pis?

Speed won't be an issue for either. If Black Widow can fight Elektra, Batman can as well. It's skill that will determine the winner.

Originally posted by Smurph
no, the issue is that the HV was an ongoing attack. Batman's use of the mirror is clever but it's not a reflex feat.

I've proven my point about Elektra's feats. Your refusal to engage in good faith isn't my problem. Why would I waste my time repeating myself? All that you'll do is plug your ears and whine.

Originally posted by leonidas
the mirror feat is no more impressive than you holding up a mirror and reflecting a laser pointer's light.... the beam was constant. he could see it. totally different if the beam is fired and in the space of time that it takes to reach him bats grabs a mirror and reflects it. those two things are universes apart. not sure how anyone can be realistically arguing that bats has legit ftl combat reflexes. moving in the space between when a bullet is fired and reaches its target and moving in the space between when a laser is fired and reaches its targets are orders of magnitude in terms of difference. street levellers do the former all the time--or do things similar to it all the time. true ftl speed feats? without pis?
I understand the point about the mirror. However,

https://postimg.cc/McJRnYgY
https://postimg.cc/SXL9CMhb
https://postimg.cc/zb0RPYvd

Batman was shown reacting and moving his entire body out of the way after the beam was already in the air - not before it fired.

We can argue PIS if needed, but the feat still stands as a light-speed movement and reaction showing.

I have been arguing PIS. Keep up.

Originally posted by Smurph
I have been arguing PIS. Keep up.

Oh ok.

Originally posted by Smurph
no, the issue is that the HV was an ongoing attack. Batman's use of the mirror is clever but it's not a reflex feat.

It wasn't?

Good faith argument? You mean I must accept you on your words but you won't accept mine because Batman can't move at lightspeed but Elektra can move at supersonic speed?

Originally posted by leonidas
the mirror feat is no more impressive than you holding up a mirror and reflecting a laser pointer's light.... the beam was constant. he could see it. totally different if the beam is fired and in the space of time that it takes to reach him bats grabs a mirror and reflects it. those two things are universes apart. not sure how anyone can be realistically arguing that bats has legit ftl combat reflexes. moving in the space between when a bullet is fired and reaches its target and moving in the space between when a laser is fired and reaches its targets are orders of magnitude in terms of difference. street levellers do the former all the time--or do things similar to it all the time. true ftl speed feats? without pis?
I don't see how anyone can argue Elektra has supersonic reflexes without showing a single supersonic speed feat for her.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It wasn't? Correct.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Good faith argument? You mean I must accept you on your words but you won't accept mine because Batman can't move at lightspeed but Elektra can move at supersonic speed? You don't have to accept me on my word. The feats speak for themselves. You're the one trying to invalidate them. Burden is on you, not me.

Batman has FTL speed reaction since he can keep up with Val Armor

When has Elektra or DD faced someone as skilled?

Originally posted by carver9
Does he blitz Slade and break his neck before he could react? Bane? Bronze Tiger? Lady Shiva?

vs Bronze Tiger

https://i.ibb.co/jP9V2VdN/main-qimg-adf880f5bd13c874d28a47a4dcd65a87-lq.jpg
upload host

vs Cayman...

https://i.ibb.co/hJnM9B1C/main-qimg-36f65c5ee8b5e042fe6623613c508636-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/TBT4smXb/main-qimg-c6ccaddf6c9100ca2a7da7fa7f82ce3b-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/WW7MRXHP/main-qimg-df1e11b27b6d5f2a03088c41d0278e41-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/CKmGX6cc/main-qimg-0fbb81f88f0ba9ef814b1d64aca50dad-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/wHfzVct/main-qimg-f30917e1534ab701473532937c28d453-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/rfRNdV1Y/main-qimg-2c42c0fdfdba5e01e1ac073a3c58d59e-lq.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/76qWCz1/main-qimg-413b825072fddae61007afd12f9bfc9e-lq.jpg
upload host

If Batman can blitz Katana who can deflect gunfire from 2 gatling guns at the same time

But can't blitz any of the above

Logic dictates that the above characters are faster than Katana

and thus faster than Elektra

I am sorry that Elektras feats are complete dog shit.

Originally posted by RadZoa
If Batman can blitz Katana who can deflect gunfire from 2 gatling guns at the same time

But can't blitz any of the above

Logic dictates that the above characters are faster than Katana

and thus faster than Elektra

I am sorry that Elektras feats are complete dog shit.

Katana >>>Elektra

https://i.ibb.co/NnLW5CTY/KA.png
https://i.ibb.co/TBNb05T8/KA2.png
https://i.ibb.co/7tPr7FvZ/KA3.png
https://i.ibb.co/PZkcXN2f/KA4.png
https://i.ibb.co/DD7p5Lfm/KA5.png

Originally posted by Smurph
Correct.

And you know this how?

I'm not invalidating shit, Elektra's lack of supersonic speed feats make her being too quick for bullets PIS. Bring the supersonic speed feats for Elektra and prove yourself.

A nonpowered human is going to have a rough time outfeating Batman.

Elektra or DD could beat Batman, he's lost to less. But, Batman for the clear majority.

Marvel's also attributed their enhanced stats to magic.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And you know this how?
I can read

Originally posted by Juntai
A nonpowered human is going to have a rough time outfeating Batman.

Elektra or DD could beat Batman, he's lost to less. But, Batman for the clear majority.



It's funny sometimes because when Batman is pissed, most fighters with enhanced whatever or super powered human will flat out lose. But on some occasions, he'll have a problem with someone who he should clearly beat. The curse of a character who has tons of appearances.

Originally posted by Smurph
Marvel's also attributed their enhanced stats to magic.

Do you base PIS on consistency (i.e., outlier feats) or on the idea that ordinary humans shouldn't be capable of certain types of feats?

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't see how anyone can argue Elektra has supersonic reflexes without showing a single supersonic speed feat for her.

i haven't really argued her reflexes are definitively super sonic. i think there is evidence to support the stance but i don't really care one way or the other. the issue i had was with the claim that bats--demonstrating ftl reflexes--was somehow NOT pis or that it can somehow be attributed to.....an invisible assist from bat mite.

i'm with jun--dd and elektra could both score wins against bats. but he's taking the clear majority over both imo.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
It's funny sometimes because when Batman is pissed, most fighters with enhanced whatever or super powered human will flat out lose. But on some occasions, he'll have a problem with someone who he should clearly beat. The curse of a character who has tons of appearances. never let anything get in the way of a good story.

Originally posted by leonidas
i haven't really argued her reflexes are definitively super sonic. i think there is evidence to support the stance but i don't really care one way or the other. the issue i had was with the claim that bats--demonstrating ftl reflexes--was somehow NOT pis or that it can somehow be attributed to.....an invisible assist from bat mite.

i'm with jun--dd and elektra could both score wins against bats. but he's taking the clear majority over both imo.

I mean, what else would the in-universe explanation for his multiple good showings be?

When WW - who poops all over these guys in terms of blocking bullets - can fail, despite amps and being bloodlusted, to even KO an injured Batman in his street clothes (so keeping in line with the thread), what's the in-universe explanation?

Same WW, despite being on the superhero equivalent of crack, was unable to take Batman out in a later fight.

You know Batman's multiple showings. I mean, you even said this:
Originally posted by leonidas


yeah, i've said this before but it could use some consideration here--if something happens over and over (ie, consistently) then it should no longer be considered PIS. imo. batman is a great example, as is logan. both have made entire careers out of battling people well above their tiers, and each does so with regularity. if it happens over and over, i don't like to label it PIS because to do so would render almost ALL their stories PIS. to me that makes no sense--how can we just discount so many showings? if it happens on a consistent basis, i think that should override the definition of pis. imo.

And:

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, batman is one of those characters that cannot be rationalized away. we either agree that everything he does is pis, or we say it all happens so often that we....redefine pis as it relates to him. despite dc's stance that he is purely human, clearly he is much more than that. other characters have similar standings (cap to an extent, supermartial artists, logan to a degree) but no one approaches the level of batman in this regard. we just take batman at what we see. the dude can be invisible to superman ffs. people will rationalize his feats however they want, but there are so many impossible ones, it creates a sense of logic-conflict no matter HOW you try and view it. he's batman and he's like no other character, really. /shrug

I mean... we can either just shrug and say 'Batman wins, because he is Batman' and make a special exemption from PIS just for him, or we rationalise it with an actual canon scan where Batmite and Mxy watch over and guard their pet guys. It isn't even as if I made that scan up.

It just seems strange:

'Batman can hide from Superman' - Yes.
'Batman can outreact HV' - No.

Originally posted by Smurph
I can read
Doesn't looks like you can.

Originally posted by h1a8
Do you base PIS on consistency (i.e., outlier feats) or on the idea that ordinary humans shouldn't be capable of certain types of feats? Both, in a sense. I primarily base it on consistency of feats but not without regard to the other information we have about the character.

Not that I think any of these characters are ordinary humans.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, what else would the in-universe explanation for his multiple good showings be?

When WW - who poops all over these guys in terms of blocking bullets - can fail, despite amps and being bloodlusted, to even KO an injured Batman in his street clothes (so keeping in line with the thread), what's the in-universe explanation?

Same WW, despite being on the superhero equivalent of crack, was unable to take Batman out in a later fight.

You know Batman's multiple showings. I mean, you even said this:


And:



I mean... we can either just shrug and say 'Batman wins, because he is Batman' and make a special exemption from PIS just for him, or we rationalise it with an actual canon scan where Batmite and Mxy watch over and guard their pet guys. It isn't even as if I made that scan up.

It just seems strange:

'Batman can hide from Superman' - Yes.
'Batman can outreact HV' - No.

i also said there are others that do similar things. and i'd MUCH rather attribute his feats to omg bat moments to some batman mystique than some outside source for which there is zero in-the-moment-proof. you've diminshed him to the point where all his feats are meaningless. congrats. i mean hiding from superman is a world away from somehow accepting he has ftl reflexes in my book. so while both are pis saying he can react as fast as flash and waving it aside and saying the imp did it is ludicrous to me since there is no evidence anywhere the imp played a role.

so every time he does something 'omg that's so batman' it's because of the imp? when he hit the baseball the imp for some reason felt he needed to chime in? congrats, you've attributed everything batman has ever done to the imp. so you think batman is actually able to beat everyone below an imp? why bother putting him in a match--he should be relegated to the high cosmic tier because if he's in danger of losing the imp saves him. doesn't even require proof beyond your fave scan lol it's a great stance you take since it can never be argued against. any time he was in trouble or shows less than ftl reflexes it's because he was never REALLY in danger to begin with or the imp would have saved him should save you time posting any more of batman's (the imp's ) feats in a thread--all you need to say is the imp saves him. the cool inventions? meaningless. imp inspired. leaps of logic? you mean leaps of imp logic?

allowing for a few cool bat moments is NOT the same as calling into question every single one of his feats because...imp. it's not even close man. c'mon.

Originally posted by Smurph
"almost feel, but"

So no, he doesn't literally feel like he could pluck them out of the air.

I'm curious about these multiple scans of him slapping and punching bullets out of the air though?

me too....

Originally posted by leonidas
i also said there are others that do similar things. and i'd MUCH rather attribute his feats to omg bat moments to some batman mystique than some outside source for which there is zero in-the-moment-proof. you've diminshed him to the point where all his feats are meaningless. congrats. i mean hiding from superman is a world away from somehow accepting he has ftl reflexes in my book. so while both are pis saying he can react as fast as flash and waving it aside and saying the imp did it is ludicrous to me since there is no evidence anywhere the imp played a role.

so every time he does something 'omg that's so batman' it's because of the imp? when he hit the baseball the imp for some reason felt he needed to chime in? congrats, you've attributed everything batman has ever done to the imp. so you think batman is actually able to beat everyone below an imp? why bother putting him in a match--he should be relegated to the high cosmic tier because if he's in danger of losing the imp saves him. doesn't even require proof beyond your fave scan lol it's a great stance you take since it can never be argued against. any time he was in trouble or shows less than ftl reflexes it's because he was never REALLY in danger to begin with or the imp would have saved him should save you time posting any more of batman's (the imp's ) feats in a thread--all you need to say is the imp saves him. the cool inventions? meaningless. imp inspired. leaps of logic? you mean leaps of imp logic?

allowing for a few cool bat moments is NOT the same as calling into question every single one of his feats because...imp. it's not even close man. c'mon.

Then it just becomes arbitrary, right? Where do we draw the line?

"This is a cool Bats moment - he snuck past Superman! So cool!"
"This is PIS - he outreacted HV! So uncool!"

It then rapidly becomes bias. Some PIS moments are cool and allowed, some PIS moments are uncool and not allowed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then it just becomes arbitrary, right? Where do we draw the line?

"This is a cool Bats moment - he snuck past Superman! So cool!"
"This is PIS - he outreacted HV! So uncool!"

It then rapidly becomes bias. Some PIS moments are cool and allowed, some PIS moments are uncool and not allowed. Those feats aren't similar at all though?

Originally posted by Smurph
There's no "having it both ways". Batman cannot move at speeds comparable to heat vision. Elektra can react within the span of point blank gunfire. There's no contradiction there. I think drawing arbitrary lines on what feats should count, and what should not is not quite the way to discuss this. Just because Batman dodging HV after it's fired is higher on a scale of absurdity than her being supersonic, it doesn't mean one gets to say that her counts while his does not. In essence, by doing this, you're creating a framework within which you can dismiss feats that surpasses hers. You could as well just say that Batman is only allowed feats sub-mach 1.5 , anything above that is PIS, and proclaim that "non PIS feats Elektra is faster", you know what I mean?

Originally posted by Smurph
Those feats aren't similar at all though?
They are if you just believe in yourself.

^ I agree that arbitrariness is not the way to go, but I don't think there's any connection between his feats and hers. His is clearly PIS, but there is no logical link that requires hers to be. We've seen her do the bullet feat multiple times, we know her stats are magically amped, and she's an entirely different character than Batman.

It's not arbitrary to look at Elektra's feats and determine what's PIS, and separately do the same with Batman. They're separate logical exercises.

Originally posted by Smurph
^ I agree that arbitrariness is not the way to go, but I don't think there's any connection between his feats and hers. His is clearly PIS, but there is no logical link that requires hers to be. We've seen her do the bullet feat multiple times, we know her stats are magically amped, and she's an entirely different character than Batman.

It's not arbitrary to look at Elektra's feats and determine what's PIS, and separately do the same with Batman. They're separate logical exercises. If she weren't magical amped, would you accept her feat?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
They are if you just believe in yourself. I mean, I don't care if the hiding-from-Superman thing is PIS or not, since it all seems beside the point at hand. But much like the Batman/Elektra speed argument, I don't think it's arbitrary that one is PIS and the other isn't.

Whenever this topic comes up the discussion quickly spirals into these slippery slope arguments, which always suffer from the slippery slope fallacy.

The answer is that each feat should be assessed separately, on the facts relevant to the feat and character. We don't need one inflexible and universally applicable rule that pre-defines PIS in all contexts, because everything really turns on the facts of each feat.

Originally posted by Smurph
It depends what I knew about the character.

If someone like Kate Bishop did the same feat once, I might have trouble swallowing it.

If someone like Shiva did it (especially at the same frequency) I think I would accept it without needing to verify that she's magically amped.

To that point, I would accept the same feats at the same frequency from Batman because it's not such an outlier for the character that it would reek of PIS to me. Ie, see all the feats DS posted establishing that Batman (within street level terms) is certainly depicted as fast.

My point has just been that outside of a couple PIS moments, Elektra seems marginally faster. The reason why I'm asking is, if you'd accept it from Shiva , then there would be no need for magical amp qualifier . And from that would come my next question, which is how high do you think a feat from Batman could go, before you consider it PIS? Because if you'd be drawing the line at bullet-timing for what is PIS and not PIS , then then there's no way for Elektra to be surpassed within that framework without stepping into the PIS territory.

I don't have an answer to that question because it seems impossible to answer in a vacuum. Like I said, I think each feat should be assessed in its own context.

Is there an on-the-line feat for a character like Bats that you're thinking of? I don't think moving at the speed of HV (or close to) is anywhere remotely near "the line".

More whining without a counter argument. I just said I would accept the same feats from Batman if he had the feats.

This isn't a Marvel/DC thing, for me at least.

Elektra is screwed. The more powerful the character is (according to Elektra fans), the more advantage Batman has. lol

It's telling how weirdly rattled you all seem to be. I honestly didn't think Batman's HV feat being PIS would be controversial? Yet, Golgo crisis management is in full swing.

Originally posted by Smurph
More whining without a counter argument. I just said I would accept the same feats from Batman if he had the feats.

This isn't a Marvel/DC thing, for me at least.


Where are all the supersonic feats for Elektra?

Originally posted by Smurph
It's telling how weirdly rattled you all seem to be. I honestly didn't think Batman's HV feat being PIS would be controversial? Yet, Golgo crisis management is in full swing.
Your double standards are laughable.

Originally posted by abhilegend


Where are all the supersonic feats for Elektra? You're the one stuck on the word supersonic, not me. I've shown you a number of bullet timing feats, and there are more.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Your double standards are laughable. You're throwing a tantrum.

Originally posted by Smurph
You're the one stuck on the word supersonic, not me. I've shown you a number of bullet timing feats, and there are more.
Without an actual supersonic speed feat from Elektra, those are PIS. Just like Batman moving faster than heat vision, I'm merely applying your logic. Originally posted by Smurph
You're throwing a tantrum.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Without an actual supersonic speed feat from Elektra, those are PIS. Just like Batman moving faster than heat vision, I'm merely applying your logic.
No, I never demanded a sprinting feat from Batman, lol.

Let me know when you've got something to say besides complaining.

Running speed is almost always the true metric of speed in comics, Flash/Superman/Sonic are true speedsters because they run fast.

Originally posted by Smurph
No, I never demanded a sprinting feat from Batman, lol.

Let me know when you've got something to say besides complaining.
That's your problem, not mine.

I'm asking you to prove your claim that Elektra is too quick for bullets by providing a supersonic speed feat from her. Not too much to ask.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Without an actual supersonic speed feat from Elektra, those are PIS. Just like Batman moving faster than heat vision, I'm merely applying your logic.

You do realize that light is over 800,000 times faster than sound, right? That's like saying that if we allow a human characters feat of lifting of a single ton as high end but allowable it should excuse the feat of a different human character lifting 8 Nimitz-class aircraft carriers since they weigh about 100,000 tons each

I've posted multiple bullet timing feats including one that says "I'm too quick for bullets"

You moving the goalposts because you don't like it is not my problem.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You do realize that light is over 800,000 times faster than light, right?

🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯

No way, light is so much faster than light.

A human being faster than a bullet is absurd, just like a human being faster than light. Just because one is more absurd doesn't mean the other is more plausible. If you want to apply PIS for one, do it for both otherwise its just double standards.

Originally posted by Smurph
I've posted multiple bullet timing feats including one that says "I'm too quick for bullets"

You moving the goalposts because you don't like it is not my problem.
Bullets are supersonic on average and if Elektra is faster than bullets that means she's supersonic in speed. If she's not supersonic in speed, that means her being faster than bullets is PIS.

It's basic logic test.

She's not merely human though.

Its like I claim Silver Surfer is equal to Superman in speed but fail to provide any feats for him at that level.

Oh wait, nevermind.

Originally posted by Smurph
She's not merely human though.
More reason for her to have supersonic speed feats then.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its like I claim Silver Surfer is equal to Superman in speed but fail to provide any feats for him at that level.

Oh wait, nevermind.

I've never claimed that, so clearly this has turned into a Marvel/DC thing for you, which it isn't for me.

Originally posted by abhilegend
🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯

No way, light is so much faster than light.

A human being faster than a bullet is absurd, just like a human being faster than light. Just because one is more absurd doesn't mean the other is more plausible. If you want to apply PIS for one, do it for both otherwise its just double standards.
If one is more absurd, then the other is inherently more plausible. That's what it means for something to be more absurd, it is less likely/realistic than the other option. And in this particular case it's a LOT less likely and realistic given the difference between the two. Anyone who can't see it would have to be suffering from something like the kid in that movie who couldn't properly process shapes

Originally posted by abhilegend
More reason for her to have supersonic speed feats then. Sure Abhi. Maybe you can write her next solo and put in a sprinting scene.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If one is more absurd, then the other is inherently more plausible. That's what it means for something to be more absurd, it is less likely/realistic than the other option. And in this particular case it's a LOT less likely and realistic given the difference between the two. Anyone who can't see it would have to be suffering from something like the kid in that movie who couldn't properly process shapes

Moving at supersonic speeds, whilst relatively more plausible, is still absurd, is what Abhi is saying.

And then as Phildo said, where does this line go? Mach 2? 3? 50?

Mach 200 is still much more plausible than FTL, Mach 500 is more plausible, 10x lightspeed is more absurd than 2x lightspeed, where does the line between 'this is TOO absurd' go?

Originally posted by Smurph
I've never claimed that, so clearly this has turned into a Marvel/DC thing for you, which it isn't for me.


Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
Well, Surfer can do damn near everything Kain seems to be able to do, as well as a truckload of other stuff, like move at speeds that put even Superman to shame, not to mention possessing very good mental resistance, and even TP of his own.

There's a ton of characters in the Mid-High who have super speed in the extreme, and most have good mental resistance.

Oh my bad.

In 2007, I was wrong.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Moving at supersonic speeds, whilst relatively more plausible, is still absurd, is what Abhi is saying.

And then as Phildo said, where does this line go? Mach 2? 3? 50?

Mach 200 is still much more plausible than FTL, Mach 500 is more plausible, 10x lightspeed is more absurd than 2x lightspeed, where does the line between 'this is TOO absurd' go? Originally posted by Smurph

Whenever this topic comes up the discussion quickly spirals into these slippery slope arguments, which always suffer from the slippery slope fallacy.

The answer is that each feat should be assessed separately, on the facts relevant to the feat and character. We don't need one inflexible and universally applicable rule that pre-defines PIS in all contexts, because everything really turns on the facts of each feat.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If one is more absurd, then the other is inherently more plausible. That's what it means for something to be more absurd, it is less likely/realistic than the other option. And in this particular case it's a LOT less likely and realistic given the difference between the two. Anyone who can't see it would have to be suffering from something like the kid in that movie who couldn't properly process shapes
It's amazing how stupid you are. I'm not saying anything like that, I'm saying Batman moving FTL AND Elektra moving supersonic are both absurd, only separated by the level of absurdness. Just because Batman can't move at FTL speeds doesn't mean Elektra can move at supersonic speeds.

Originally posted by Smurph


In the context of Batman, he always does well against metahumans. Relevant to the character, he gets to fight Zoom, Mongul, WW, Damage, Gotham etc.

I just don't think bullets are that good a metric, considering in the context of one character (Elektra) she is squishy and needs to avoid bullets, and the other (Batman) he straight up tanks bullets and uses his cape to deliberately draw fire etc. It's the same way we have Sue (of course!!) having all these amazing showings of reacting to attacks, despite her physicals being that of a normal human - she is squishy, and needs them otherwise she dies on page 1.

Logan would be a good example, I think. He doesn't slice bullets out of the air as much as Elektra (I..don't think so anyway) but would we say Elektra is THAT much faster (if at all)? Probably an imperfect analogy, so don't get too hung up on it - the point is that Elektra has the showings, because she needs them. Bulletproof characters don't.

Originally posted by Smurph
Sure Abhi. Maybe you can write her next solo and put in a sprinting scene.
Concession accepted. Originally posted by Smurph
Oh my bad.

In 2007, I was wrong.
You did say EVER.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just because Batman can't move at FTL speeds doesn't mean Elektra can move at supersonic speeds. I agree.

Nobody has said that Batman not being able to do something means that Elektra can do something.

They're separate characters with separate histories and feats. There's no "if Batman, then Elektra".