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Darkseid heals after every match. No prep for both him and the Gauntlet combatants.

Scenario: Darkseid invades the Marvel Universe... The Living Tribunal sets up a Gauntlet chock full of cosmic level powerhouses... He says to Darkseid, if you can defeat all those in the Gauntlet, I will not interfere in your conquest for the Marvel Universe...

Pre-Crisis Darkseid

The Gauntlet:

1. Pre-Crisis Jimmy Olsen and Aunt May(Warm up)

2. Green Lantern Hal Jordan

3. Silver Surfer

4. Thanos

5. Zeus

6. Odin

7. Demogorge The God Eater

8. In-Betweener

9. Dormammu(Within his realm)

10. Agamotto(Within his realm)

11. Full Powered Galactus

12. Eternity

Debate...

prolly dormammu


i reread crisis this week and precrisis darkseid was a diesel bastard

he almost destroyed a universe killer with push of a button

Stops at Zeus or Odin. He ain't passing Odin for sure.

Darkseid, back in those days, was said to be Galactus level so he goes pretty far.

odin can take him if not demogorge eats him

Originally posted by Ultimate Ion
Darkseid, back in those days, was said to be Galactus level so he goes pretty far.

Was said, never proven. Odin has feats higher than PC Darkseid.

exactly

He stops at Galactus. And for god's sake use my respect thread.

Originally posted by Draco69
He stops at Galactus. And for god's sake use my respect thread.

Did you see where he's battling Dormammu and Agamotto?

Did you see what Demogorge did to Elder Gods Chthon and Set?

All he has to do is tap into the Dimension X (think that what is called) and unleash its powers.

Contrary to popular belief Darkseid doesn't just have the Omega Beams.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Was said, never proven. Odin has feats higher than PC Darkseid.

He really doesnt. Ask Whirly about that.

Demogorge:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/atum2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/atum3.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He really doesnt. Ask Whirly about that.

Um. Respect Thread. Why is everyone ignoring like the plague?

Odin bitchslapped DC Odin who's much more powerful than Marvel Odin.

Originally posted by Draco69
Odin bitchslapped DC Odin who's much more powerful than Marvel Odin.

Unless Marvel Odin can create universes with a thought...

Originally posted by Creshosk

Set:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/seteldergod.htm

Chthon:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/chthonother.htm

Agamotto runs his own Universe/Cosmos... He's possibly older than Galactus himself.

A place where beings like Galactus dare not enter. He figured that out the hard way.

That's all nice. But Darkseid managed to defeat Pre-Crisis Spectre. And the Spectre had the permission of the Source to carry out his duties making him omnipotent...at least until Darkseid.

Originally posted by Sentry
Agamotto runs his own Universe/Cosmos... He's possibly older than Galactus himself.

A place where beings like Galactus dare not enter. He figured that out the hard way.

What issue did Galactus fight Agg? I'll download it tonight. Was it any good?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What issue did Galactus fight Agg? I'll download it tonight. Was it any good?

Ask the longpig. He should know. I got it from him. Anything that's connected to Strange, he knows. I swear, Dr. Strange is probably longpig's dad. Just kidding lp.

Or am I? shifty

You people don't seem to understand Darkseid. Darkseid isn't limited to just ONE plane of existence. He's omnipotent. In fact alot of his encounters with the JLA and such are just mere avatars.

Darkseid is the antithesis to the Source. The antithesis to God himself. He's basically declared himself the Devil.

really draco? awesome

Originally posted by Draco69
You people don't seem to understand Darkseid. Darkseid isn't limited to just ONE plane of existence. He's omnipotent. In fact alot of his encounters with the JLA and such are just mere avatars.

Darkseid is the antithesis to the Source. The antithesis to God himself. He's basically declared himself the Devil.

So he's Lucifer?

Originally posted by Sentry
So he's Lucifer?

And Superman beat this guy?

Originally posted by Sentry
So he's Lucifer?

No. It simply means that Darkseid and the Source are in eternal struggle over the "Meaning of Life"

Darkseid seeks the "Anti-Life" Equation which will remake creation in his image.

His appearances are merely avatars of of his omniprescent being.

Originally posted by Sentry
And Superman beat this guy?

Superman has NEVER beaten Pre-Crisis Darkseid. Never. Darkseid once KOed Superman with a SLAP.

Hell even his Firebits put Superman in a coma and gave him amensia.


Jeph Loeb REALLLLLLY messed up on Darkseid. Go to my Darkseid Respect Thread and you'll see what I mean.

Originally posted by Draco69
No. It simply means that Darkseid and the Source are in eternal struggle over the "Meaning of Life"

Darkseid seeks the "Anti-Life" Equation which will remake creation in his image.

His appearances are merely avatars of of his omniprescent being.

Thats not current continuity though is it?

I have NO idea what the hell the editors are doing. Darkseid would NEVER attempt to kill Superman. No way. Why? Because the secret to the Anti-Life Equation was supposedly hidden in Superman himself. So Darkseid would never kill him.

Back then Darkseid just had fun humilating him. He COULD have if he wanted to but he couldn't because he needed him.

Originally posted by Draco69
I have NO idea what the hell the editors are doing. Darkseid would NEVER attempt to kill Superman. No way. Why? Because the secret to the Anti-Life Equation was supposedly hidden in Superman himself. So Darkseid would never kill him.

Back then Darkseid just had fun humilating him. He COULD have if he wanted to but he couldn't because he needed him. Doomsday back then gave it to Darkseid, and Superman is infinitely more powerful than he was when he fought Doomsday.

Originally posted by Juntai
Doomsday back then gave it to Darkseid, and Superman is infinitely more powerful than he was when he fought Doomsday.

True. But Darkseid was INCREDIBLY weakend during that time. Not even a pale shadow of what he was. AND Darkseid defeated DD easily with couple of punches when he WAS at normal power during their first encounter.

GS I think the comic is a excalibur issue, and where do you download your comics

Originally posted by Maestro
GS I think the comic is a excalibur issue, and where do you download your comics

I use winmx. If you download the program and then PM me i'll tell you what to do. If you're nice

Kirby created Darkseid and Galactus he said they were equal. He said this obviously precrisis.

-Debate over

he would have a hard time getting past 2 and probably never get past 3. If by some chance he did he would have a 2% chance of getting past 4. Anything past 4 is utter destruction for poor, poor Darkseid.

Cant Galactus beat a skyfather?

Originally posted by Draco69
All he has to do is tap into the Dimension X (think that what is called) and unleash its powers.

Contrary to popular belief Darkseid doesn't just have the Omega Beams.



C'mon man. Please stop with this. Yeah, DC Odin did create a pocket universe. Does that mean Darkseid can too? Even at his best, what's PC Darkseid's greatest feat?

'Cause if you want, I'll bring up that incident of Odin and Seth's fight sending shockwaves throught the multiverse as a counter.



Defeated Spectre? Since when did he do that? And no, Spectre doesn't even get permission from the Source. Spectre serves the Presence; the New Gods are connected to the Source. And Spectre wasn't even powered by Presence. Darkseid survied because he was essential to the universe.

...however, being essential doesn't mean you can't get your ass kicked.



Since when is Darkseid omnipotent? Anti-monitor makes him look like a dirty rag.

And no he ain't the Devil. His title was that he was "the God the Devil prays to."

Still, that's just a title. Again, what's his greastest feat?

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Kirby created Darkseid and Galactus he said they were equal. He said this obviously precrisis.

-Debate over

He said so. But feats and times prove otherwise. I mean what is PC's greatest feat?

Other writers have amped up Galactus' feat. Odin, Dormammu, Demogorge, etc. all have high end feats as well.

Sure Kirby, their creator said that, but does it remain so? Galactus' feats are higher now. His fights with Tyrant, Agamotto, IG w/ Thanos, In-Betweener, Thanos, Hyperstorm, etc. have changed his ranking. Galaxies and dimensions have been wrecked in his more recent showings.

Compare Galactus' feats with PC Darkseid, and the more powerful is Galactus.

Big G fought Big A in Dr.Strange SS #42 & 43.

It was a decent fight, total stalemate though.

Strange and the other Vishanti did seem to worry about Galactus being killed more so than Ag' being hurt.

Originally posted by long pig
Big G fought Big A in Dr.Strange SS #42 & 43.

It was a decent fight, total stalemate though.

Strange and the other Vishanti did seem to worry about Galactus being killed more so than Ag' being hurt.

You sure about that? Galactus was treating Agamotto like an nuissance, while Agamotto couldn't careless about Galactus or his mission.

The other Vishantis were more worried the fight would wreck their dimension and others. Good fight, neither had an edge.

Originally posted by Beyonder


C'mon man. Please stop with this. Yeah, DC Odin did create a pocket universe. Does that mean Darkseid can too? Even at his best, what's PC Darkseid's greatest feat?

Um. No. Listen you obviously don't know the first thing about Darkseid. Which is readily apparent. Research first then make comments against the character.

Darkseid never made a pocket universe. What's PC Darkseid's greatest feat? Depends on opinion. In my opinion it would be defeating the Spectre powered by the Presence. Or stalemating the Highfather. Or defeating PC Valdius. Or defeating Infinity Man. Or defeating DC Odin and the entire Asgardian Race, thus completing his collection of pantheons. All done easily with so much of a wave of his hand.

'Originally posted by Beyonder
Cause if you want, I'll bring up that incident of Odin and Seth's fight sending shockwaves throught the multiverse as a counter.

So? DC Odin is much more powerful. He actually destroyed Surtur banishing his remains to universe he himself created. AND he managed to disarm and defeat the Thunderbolt himself who in PC was Skyfather-level.




Originally posted by Beyonder
Defeated Spectre? Since when did he do that?

During the Infinite Crisis. Just before Darkseid destroyed the Anti-Monitor. He let Superman finish him off to humilate him.

And you claim superior knowledge of the character?

Originally posted by Beyonder
And no, Spectre doesn't even get permission from the Source. Spectre serves the Presence; the New Gods are connected to the Source. And Spectre wasn't even powered by Presence. Darkseid survied because he was essential to the universe.

Dude. The Source is PART of the Presence. It's literally the same thing.

The Presence\Source\What ever the hell you want to call it decreeded that the Spectre destroy and wipe the DC Universe the Anti-Monitor was presently in. Which was thousands of universes comprising the Multiverse. And he was just about to accomplish it...until Darkseid kicked his ass.

A Fully-Powered Spectre at that.





Originally posted by Beyonder
Since when is Darkseid omnipotent? Anti-monitor makes him look like a dirty rag.

This sentence ALONE proves you nothing about the character. Darkseid DESTROYED the Anti-Monitor. He gave him the proverbial finger in his face and let Superman destroy him in utter humilation.

Darkseid is an omnipresecent. He is "the tiger-force at the heart of creation". His appearances in the DC Comics are merely avatars, " a small extrusion of a part of his nearly infinite energy". This was proven in his battle with Blasfemy.

Originally posted by Beyonder
And no he ain't the Devil. His title was that he was "the God the Devil prays to."

If you don't consider the anti-thesis to the Source itself not the Devil, sure.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Still, that's just a title. Again, what's his greastest feat?

See above. Oh I forgot to mention his defeating of the Time Trapper. Time Trapper was basically the Beyonder of the 1980s. Another great feat involves breaking the Source Wall and projecting his godly powers into the Presence itself causing it pain.

I continually respect your knowledge about Marvel Characters. But you're knowledge of DC characters has and is quite low. Especially when it comes to DC Cosmic Beings.

Originally posted by Draco69
Um. No. Listen you obviously don't know the first thing about Darkseid. Which is readily apparent. Research first then make comments against the character.

Darkseid never made a pocket universe. What's PC Darkseid's greatest feat? Depends on opinion. In my opinion it would be defeating the Spectre powered by the Presence. Or stalemating the Highfather. Or defeating PC Valdius. Or defeating Infinity Man. Or defeating DC Odin and the entire Asgardian Race, thus completing his collection of pantheons. All done easily with so much of a wave of his hand.

Um right. He beat Spectre w/ Presence's power. Scans if you have them.

Highfather > Spectre w/ Presence backing him up? That what your saying?



Scans anyone. If PC Darkseid was that powerful, why need the Anti-Life Equation to control the universe?



Dude, it's NOT the same thing. The Source comes from the Presence. Spectre gets it from Presence, not the Source. Lucifer and Michael talk to the Presence, they ignore the Source.



Seriously, because it makes sense.

PC Darkseid > Anti-Monitor > Spectre (who decreed and empowered Spectre to destroy Anti-Monitor)

Right. That makes so much sense. Even Presence empowering Spectre can't beat Anti-Monitor but PC Darkseid can.

...now where did it say Spectre was powered by Presence again?

loses at Zeus.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Um right. He beat Spectre w/ Presence's power. Scans if you have them.

Highfather > Spectre w/ Presence backing him up? That what your saying?



Scans anyone. If PC Darkseid was that powerful, why need the Anti-Life Equation to control the universe?



Dude, it's NOT the same thing. The Source comes from the Presence. Spectre gets it from Presence, not the Source. Lucifer and Michael talk to the Presence, they ignore the Source.



Seriously, because it makes sense.

PC Darkseid > Anti-Monitor > Spectre (who decreed and empowered Spectre to destroy Anti-Monitor)

Right. That makes so much sense. Even Presence empowering Spectre can't beat Anti-Monitor but PC Darkseid can.

...now where did it say Spectre was powered by Presence again?
where issue 3 v5

Originally posted by Beyonder
You sure about that? Galactus was treating Agamotto like an nuissance, while Agamotto couldn't careless about Galactus or his mission.

The other Vishantis were more worried the fight would wreck their dimension and others. Good fight, neither had an edge.
Very sure.

Galactus treats everyone like a nuissance, he just thought Agamatto was a large alien catapiller.

Strange was worried that Ag' would kill Galactus, and he said that G couldn't physically harm Ag' at all.

No edge to either since it was broken up, but it's kinda obvious who would have won over time.

Here ya go.
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9950/galvag16vz.th.jpghttp://img394.imageshack.us/img394/1187/galvag22bb.th.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5794/galvag35el.th.jpghttp://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1976/galvag44wf.th.jpghttp://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2484/galvag51jn.th.jpg


The new edit feature is ****ing sweet.

Hmmm Galactus would of eventually lost, he didn't seem to be hurting agamotto remotely.

Odin or Zeus would probably already stop him. And in crossover he already lost Galactus with ease.

Spectre did what his role was to do and nothing more and nothing less.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Odin or Zeus would probably already stop him. And in crossover he already lost Galactus with ease. That wasn't precrisis Darkseid.

Originally posted by long pig
Here ya go.
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9950/galvag16vz.th.jpghttp://img394.imageshack.us/img394/1187/galvag22bb.th.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5794/galvag35el.th.jpghttp://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1976/galvag44wf.th.jpghttp://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2484/galvag51jn.th.jpg


The new edit feature is ****ing sweet.

What happens next ?

Also, Hal Jordan as the Spectre killed Darkseid by waving his hand.

Originally posted by Juntai
Also, Hal Jordan as the Spectre killed Darkseid by waving his hand.

thats considerably post crisis though Juntai

Originally posted by Draco69
Um. No. Listen you obviously don't know the first thing about Darkseid. Which is readily apparent. Research first then make comments against the character.

Darkseid never made a pocket universe. What's PC Darkseid's greatest feat? Depends on opinion. In my opinion it would be defeating the Spectre powered by the Presence. Or stalemating the Highfather. Or defeating PC Valdius. Or defeating Infinity Man. Or defeating DC Odin and the entire Asgardian Race, thus completing his collection of pantheons. All done easily with so much of a wave of his hand.

'

So? DC Odin is much more powerful. He actually destroyed Surtur banishing his remains to universe he himself created. AND he managed to disarm and defeat the Thunderbolt himself who in PC was Skyfather-level.






During the Infinite Crisis. Just before Darkseid destroyed the Anti-Monitor. He let Superman finish him off to humilate him.

And you claim superior knowledge of the character?



Dude. The Source is PART of the Presence. It's literally the same thing.

The Presence\Source\What ever the hell you want to call it decreeded that the Spectre destroy and wipe the DC Universe the Anti-Monitor was presently in. Which was thousands of universes comprising the Multiverse. And he was just about to accomplish it...until Darkseid kicked his ass.

A Fully-Powered Spectre at that.







This sentence ALONE proves you nothing about the character. Darkseid DESTROYED the Anti-Monitor. He gave him the proverbial finger in his face and let Superman destroy him in utter humilation.

Darkseid is an omnipresecent. He is "the tiger-force at the heart of creation". His appearances in the DC Comics are merely avatars, " a small extrusion of a part of his nearly infinite energy". This was proven in his battle with Blasfemy.



If you don't consider the anti-thesis to the Source itself not the Devil, sure.



See above. Oh I forgot to mention his defeating of the Time Trapper. Time Trapper was basically the Beyonder of the 1980s. Another great feat involves breaking the Source Wall and projecting his godly powers into the Presence itself causing it pain.

I continually respect your knowledge about Marvel Characters. But you're knowledge of DC characters has and is quite low. Especially when it comes to DC Cosmic Beings.



He used to play with time like a toy, he created Validus, defeated pre crisis Mordru who would stomp Strange with a wave of the hand etc. Read legion of Superheroezs "The Great Darkness saga".

Probably the greatest precrisis DC run

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
thats considerably post crisis though Juntai Yah, Precrisis was insane. But before or after or at any point, Spectre only loses if it was meant to be, or if it was a learning lesson to the soul that inhabits The Spectre Force so that in this incarnation would complete it's ultimate goal of redeeming himself in the eyes of the presence.

from seeing the scans it was a stalemate...strange wasnt worried that galactus was gonna get killed per se either


he was thinking "suppose galactus died...this is what would happen"


PC darkseid would stop all over odin and make him his beer b*tch

Originally posted by yahman
What happens next ?
The other Vishanti beg Agamotto to halt his attacks, he calms down and turns back into his happy caterpillar.

Galactus and Strange leave.

i don't think ag would have been able to finish g off. g would have realized WHAT he was fighting and changed tactics. he was overconfident and didn't realize what ag was. which is pretty f'n stupid considering the cosmic awareness g should possess . . .

anyway, i don't see much difference from zeus to ag. all are considered variously omnipotent in their spheres. darkseid doesn't require being in any special place to use all his power and, in any event, his power source transcends ALL dimensions and universes. i'm not entirely sure where draco dug up some of his info (nor can i confirm or deny some of it), but pre-c darkseid never really 'lost' or was 'defeated' that i'm aware of. he simply was more powerful than anyone and everyone was afraid of him. originally, as whirly pointed out, he and darkseid were considered at least equals. imo, pre-c darkseid would reach at least galactus, and likely without much difficulty.

After Darkseid absrbed the power of so many Pantheons he killed across the universe, even Odin seemed wary of his power, stating to The Asgardian Pantheon that it was beyond their ability to reckon:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pcc284506f49c858285524d58d7741261/fa66603f.jpg
And if you think they're much weaker than Marvel's version, this Odin created a pocket universe, and Darkseid, while destroying other Pantheons wholesale, FEARED Odin up until JKFW#4, where he had gained enough power to defeat Odin. Also, DC Thor fought the Wonder Woman-level Big Barda, it being a breif stalemate with him holding the obvious edge, and Mr. Miracle states that Barda can't stand up to Thor long before her inevitable defeat (he then interferes and takes Thor out himself with his newfound God powers which gave him team-wrecking status before he gave them up). That she was even able to stand up to him as long as she did was stated as a testament to her mettle, despite being outclassed in power by Thor. Also, DC Odin banished DC Surtur to his pocket universe, where he stalemated the combined JSA, including the Skyfather-level Thunderbolt:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/pbd477189a2bb4c526e3f3b81f93d33e8/f913a49c.jpg

During The Hunger, Darkseid used his matter and energy manipulation abilities to create and empower automatons with the strength to stagger Galactus, hungry as he was, and 'Seid did it with nothing more than a thought:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p84ca5d6ac342876539f692cd6aa01810/fa6408e2.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p29c62f8a4702170c71e021243f8e0003/fa6408d9.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p2c608e03e58741795f6d446ef37f6f32/fa6408cf.jpg


Darkseid also easily defeated the Silver Surfer and flayed off some of his silver skin, prompting him to scream in agony, with one blast of The Omega Beams:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p536083384cdb87dc7a603396766dd835/fbd5e54c.jpg

During GDS, Darkseid proved capable of teleporting Apokolips and Daxam at once, holding them literally in his mind as they're switching locations and galaxies, and mind-controlling 3 billion Daxamites:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pc677ab2c0b95683cd3079854cf6f5809/fa661adf.jpg

Others who fell by Darkseid's power include The Time Trapper, who created a pocket universe: http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p43f96c55a3c80cb0fea2485461528b3f/fa661ac1.jpg

During Crisis, Darkseid sheilded The New Gods' continuum from its effects and ensured its survival by chanelling his Omega Beams through Alex Luthor, who acted as a conduit between Apokolips and the normal DC continuum, with Darkseid's tech (his "science" allowing him to shoot Omega Beams ("gaze" through Alex's eyes at The Anti-Monitor. The Anti-Monitor is dying, afterwards, y his own admission. He's also weakened to the point where Superman destroys him with one punch, when before, all of the heroes combined couldn't dent him and he defeated The Spectre:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/pf470422715f46aee1182578a39bf1983/fa8e2bd7.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/pd7a5ed683ad49a78cf5d52b7d4b3919f/fa8e2bd3.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/p9ed9a6ffd5d5e37c2753d80695d888b4/fa8e2bcc.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/p0c3572ee5010f1d2d9ae966e4c7f2cd0/fa8e25d5.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/p31135cd0ffec6366a07b0ceb61732fbf/fa8e25d2.jpg

Darkseid revives a slain Orion (right after he killed him):
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/pcb26d13040949974bd142dc1a6a06215/f913a490.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/p13d405be3f5baca810ec4d4ce5d09456/f913aa7c.jpg

Darkseid projects his dark essence into The Source, and forces it to open itself to him, as his very essence causes it agony, which, taken at base value, appears at least a skyfather-level feat:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/p50e4e9ce1cb5f7accdae4df5cc642e7a/f9143934.jpg

Here, Darkseid TKOes Doomsday, rendering him helpless and beaten for the time being, and leaves him buried under rubble, which he then turns to lava, via Omega Beams, and walks off as it dries. While DD eventually revives, after it's dried, and takes some revenge on Darkseid via a sneak attack, the writer of this scene and Doomsday's creater has stated that he had in mind that Darkseid would defeat Doomsday 15/20 when he made this scene:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid66/p03ea3d0bd0d2379ea00cf372ba835123/fbdd33c9.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid66/p4117c53963bdf3cf6086f58a40c75de9/fbdd33c6.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid71/p747fe3fc2364a4e19b26d55dc48722ff/fb9b1381.jpg

In Super Powers vol.2 #6, Darkseid, with a wave of his hand, projected his power through a hologram of himself, and effortlessly defeated Superman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, and multiple other heroes --- Jack Kirby himself collaborated on this scene:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid106/pe0fb5c86846dadf5ae802dc927a747fa/f9707780.jpg

Originally posted by Beyonder


Dude, it's NOT the same thing. The Source comes from the Presence. Spectre gets it from Presence, not the Source. Lucifer and Michael talk to the Presence, they ignore the Source

The Source and the Presence are basically aspects of Yahweh. Who is Dc's god. Many people thought the Presence to be the top being in DC when that was in fact an aspect itself, just like the Word and the Source. Presence(Father) Word(Son) Source(Holy Spirit)

As for Lucifer ignoring the Source that incident wasnt anything like how its been made out by a lot of people here. Lucifer merely flew beyond Yahwehs universe where the Source resided because from there you could see "everything in the universe at once" because he had no business with the Source and was only after a vantage point he ignored it and focused on the battle that was taking place on Earth.

So let's say he slips past Odin... How does he slip by a being who basically beaten Gods more powerful than Odin? Demogorge will stop him.

i dont think u understand who pre crisis darkseid is

Yeah, he's pretty much above all of these except Galactus.

I'd say he's just slightly below Galactus. But, he's a damned BEAST.

They royally screwed him over. Or, maybe the the new DS is just an avatar??!!

Originally posted by supremthor
After Darkseid absrbed the power of so many Pantheons he killed across the universe, even Odin seemed wary of his power, stating to The Asgardian Pantheon that it was beyond their ability to reckon:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pcc284506f49c858285524d58d7741261/fa66603f.jpg
And if you think they're much weaker than Marvel's version, this Odin created a pocket universe, and Darkseid, while destroying other Pantheons wholesale, FEARED Odin up until JKFW#4, where he had gained enough power to defeat Odin. Also, DC Thor fought the Wonder Woman-level Big Barda, it being a breif stalemate with him holding the obvious edge, and Mr. Miracle states that Barda can't stand up to Thor long before her inevitable defeat (he then interferes and takes Thor out himself with his newfound God powers which gave him team-wrecking status before he gave them up). That she was even able to stand up to him as long as she did was stated as a testament to her mettle, despite being outclassed in power by Thor. Also, DC Odin banished DC Surtur to his pocket universe, where he stalemated the combined JSA, including the Skyfather-level Thunderbolt:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/pbd477189a2bb4c526e3f3b81f93d33e8/f913a49c.jpg

During The Hunger, Darkseid used his matter and energy manipulation abilities to create and empower automatons with the strength to stagger Galactus, hungry as he was, and 'Seid did it with nothing more than a thought:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p84ca5d6ac342876539f692cd6aa01810/fa6408e2.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p29c62f8a4702170c71e021243f8e0003/fa6408d9.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p2c608e03e58741795f6d446ef37f6f32/fa6408cf.jpg


Darkseid also easily defeated the Silver Surfer and flayed off some of his silver skin, prompting him to scream in agony, with one blast of The Omega Beams:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p536083384cdb87dc7a603396766dd835/fbd5e54c.jpg

During GDS, Darkseid proved capable of teleporting Apokolips and Daxam at once, holding them literally in his mind as they're switching locations and galaxies, and mind-controlling 3 billion Daxamites:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pc677ab2c0b95683cd3079854cf6f5809/fa661adf.jpg

Others who fell by Darkseid's power include The Time Trapper, who created a pocket universe: http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p43f96c55a3c80cb0fea2485461528b3f/fa661ac1.jpg

During Crisis, Darkseid sheilded The New Gods' continuum from its effects and ensured its survival by chanelling his Omega Beams through Alex Luthor, who acted as a conduit between Apokolips and the normal DC continuum, with Darkseid's tech (his "science" allowing him to shoot Omega Beams ("gaze" through Alex's eyes at The Anti-Monitor. The Anti-Monitor is dying, afterwards, y his own admission. He's also weakened to the point where Superman destroys him with one punch, when before, all of the heroes combined couldn't dent him and he defeated The Spectre:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/pf470422715f46aee1182578a39bf1983/fa8e2bd7.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/pd7a5ed683ad49a78cf5d52b7d4b3919f/fa8e2bd3.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/p9ed9a6ffd5d5e37c2753d80695d888b4/fa8e2bcc.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/p0c3572ee5010f1d2d9ae966e4c7f2cd0/fa8e25d5.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/p31135cd0ffec6366a07b0ceb61732fbf/fa8e25d2.jpg

Darkseid revives a slain Orion (right after he killed him):
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/pcb26d13040949974bd142dc1a6a06215/f913a490.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/p13d405be3f5baca810ec4d4ce5d09456/f913aa7c.jpg

Darkseid projects his dark essence into The Source, and forces it to open itself to him, as his very essence causes it agony, which, taken at base value, appears at least a skyfather-level feat:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/p50e4e9ce1cb5f7accdae4df5cc642e7a/f9143934.jpg

Here, Darkseid TKOes Doomsday, rendering him helpless and beaten for the time being, and leaves him buried under rubble, which he then turns to lava, via Omega Beams, and walks off as it dries. While DD eventually revives, after it's dried, and takes some revenge on Darkseid via a sneak attack, the writer of this scene and Doomsday's creater has stated that he had in mind that Darkseid would defeat Doomsday 15/20 when he made this scene:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid66/p03ea3d0bd0d2379ea00cf372ba835123/fbdd33c9.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid66/p4117c53963bdf3cf6086f58a40c75de9/fbdd33c6.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid71/p747fe3fc2364a4e19b26d55dc48722ff/fb9b1381.jpg

In Super Powers vol.2 #6, Darkseid, with a wave of his hand, projected his power through a hologram of himself, and effortlessly defeated Superman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, and multiple other heroes --- Jack Kirby himself collaborated on this scene:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid106/pe0fb5c86846dadf5ae802dc927a747fa/f9707780.jpg

Originally posted by Beyonder
Um right. He beat Spectre w/ Presence's power. Scans if you have them.

I feel like a freakin' parrot. GO. TO. DARKSEID. RESPECT. THREAD. COMIC. BOOK. FORUMS.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Highfather > Spectre w/ Presence backing him up? That what your saying?

Not all. Highfather was merely channeling the Source Wall's energies. Darkseid was also weakened due to a prior battle.

The comic suggested also that Darkseid would have won. But then Orion meddled his way in...

Originally posted by Beyonder
Scans anyone. If PC Darkseid was that powerful, why need the Anti-Life Equation to control the universe?

Because he wants to be GOD. He is the antithesis to the Source. However he's not at the level to oppose GOD/Presence himself. He would need the Anti-Life Equation for that.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Dude, it's NOT the same thing. The Source comes from the Presence. Spectre gets it from Presence, not the Source. Lucifer and Michael talk to the Presence, they ignore the Source.

GalacticStorm said it better than I could have:


"The Source and the Presence are basically aspects of Yahweh. Who is Dc's god. Many people thought the Presence to be the top being in DC when that was in fact an aspect itself, just like the Word and the Source. Presence(Father) Word(Son) Source(Holy Spirit)

As for Lucifer ignoring the Source that incident wasnt anything like how its been made out by a lot of people here. Lucifer merely flew beyond Yahwehs universe where the Source resided because from there you could see "everything in the universe at once" because he had no business with the Source and was only after a vantage point he ignored it and focused on the battle that was taking place on Earth."


Originally posted by Beyonder
Seriously, because it makes sense.

PC Darkseid > Anti-Monitor > Spectre (who decreed and empowered Spectre to destroy Anti-Monitor)

Right. That makes so much sense. Even Presence empowering Spectre can't beat Anti-Monitor but PC Darkseid can.

...now where did it say Spectre was powered by Presence again?

Dear. Don't blame me. I didn't write the Infinite Crisis...which you clearly didn't bother to read.

Once again. Astonishing Marvel knowledge. Very poor DC knowledge.

Originally posted by armandovalles
loses at Zeus.

Uh. NO. PC Darkseid almost killed Zeus until he got his ass saved by the Legion of Superheroes.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Odin or Zeus would probably already stop him. And in crossover he already lost Galactus with ease.

PC Darkseid already killed Odin and absorbed the entire Asgardian Pantheon.

Zeus almost died if he wasn't saved by the Legion.

And did you even read the crossover? Darkseid and Galactus were even. Hell Darkseid even reduced Galactus to lifeless energies.

And Silver Surfer got completely owned.

Originally posted by long pig
Yeah, he's pretty much above all of these except Galactus.

I'd say he's just slightly below Galactus. But, he's a damned BEAST.

They royally screwed him over. Or, maybe the the new DS is just an avatar??!!

Longpig got it right.

DC editors have been smoking too much weed.

There is major speculation that the entire Infinite Crisis is just a plot by Darkseid himself.

People. For the love of god. Clearly some of you guys are either ignorant of the fact that the respect thread is there or you guys are refusing to even LOOK at the respect thread.

Originally posted by Sentry
So let's say he slips past Odin... How does he slip by a being who basically beaten Gods more powerful than Odin? Demogorge will stop him.

Um. Honey. Darkseid has killed pretty much every god in the DC Universe. The only ones remaining were the Greek Gods, The Roman Gods, and the Asgardians.

He killed them all. And absorbed their power into him. That means he has the power of countless pantheons inside of him.

u have some of it right Galacticstorm, but u are mistaken where The Presence and The Source are different at. The Presence is another name for The Holy Spirit, he is our helper protector, he is Gods (Yahweh) Holy Presence that proceeds from him. When someone is talking to The Presence you are indirectly talking to Yahweh. The Source is Gods Will/Power just outside of the universe. Yahweh/"The Presence" is beyond The Source.

Originally posted by kevdude
u have some of it right Galacticstorm, but u are mistaken where The Presence and The Source are different at. The Presence is another name for The Holy Spirit, he is our helper protector, he is Gods (Yahweh) Holy Presence that proceeds from him. When someone is talking to The Presence you are indirectly talking to Yahweh. The Source is Gods Will/Power just outside of the universe. Yahweh/"The Presence" is beyond The Source.

Well as Dc follows kaballah principles (i.e the involvement of the brothers in the making of creation, the function and names of the aspects) id have to disagree with that. Keter/Crown/Presence (all the same thing) are the closest creation comes to the Unknowable, Unmanifest God. However the aspects are all just emanation points for gods essence on the tree of life and as such are equal. They only differ in role and function. Dont mistake role and function for power.

Yahweh is the unknowable, unmanifest god. He/it is supreme. The Presence and the other aspects are all parts of him which touch creation and they are all equal:

Yahweh
Presence/Source/Word
Lucifer/Michael

I see what you're saying and it seems close enough for me...

It's been a while but I think Zauriel refered to the presence as the lord of heaven, in Paradise lost.. I think that was the name of his first 4 parter.. . It was the presence that gave them the power to drive back Neron, the demons and the renegade angels.
I think it's just a rose by any other name...

Originally posted by Juntai
That wasn't precrisis Darkseid.

I know, but it would be the same result anyway.

And actually about DS entering the source, only he and the spectre have been able to do that.. everyone else that's tried becomes a part of the wall.... and you notice the Source is made of beings who dared.

Originally posted by Juntai
And actually about DS entering the source, only he and the spectre have been able to do that.. everyone else that's tried becomes a part of the wall.... and you notice the Source is made of beings who dared.

swamp thing got through before.

Originally posted by long pig
Yeah, he's pretty much above all of these except Galactus.

I'd say he's just slightly below Galactus. But, he's a damned BEAST.

They royally screwed him over. Or, maybe the the new DS is just an avatar??!!

He's even more powerful than Agamotto in his realm?

Agamotto's realm I mean. That's where they battle.

If I hear it from you lp, then I'll concede.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Source and the Presence are basically aspects of Yahweh. Who is Dc's god. Many people thought the Presence to be the top being in DC when that was in fact an aspect itself, just like the Word and the Source. Presence(Father) Word(Son) Source(Holy Spirit)

As for Lucifer ignoring the Source that incident wasnt anything like how its been made out by a lot of people here. Lucifer merely flew beyond Yahwehs universe where the Source resided because from there you could see "everything in the universe at once" because he had no business with the Source and was only after a vantage point he ignored it and focused on the battle that was taking place on Earth.

one of Vertigo DC's gods lots of supreme "christian", "god", figures in DC

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
one of Vertigo DC's gods lots of supreme "christian", "god", figures in DC

and all are likely to be aspects of Dc's supreme being Yahweh or just alternate names for already existing aspects. For example Presence refers to both Keter and the Crown. The Source can be referred to as Tiphereth.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
and all are likely to be aspects of Dc's supreme being Yahweh or just alternate names for already existing aspects. For example Presence refers to both Keter and the Crown. The Source can be referred to as Tiphereth.

All supposition on your part, as usual your assumptions are amusing

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
All supposition on your part, as usual your assumptions are amusing

Its supposition on your part that theres a higher being than yahweh when theres been no reference to one whatsoever

Would you like to point out and name these other christian like supreme beings from DC so i can get back to you or are they like the backing for most of your counters immaterial?

I look forward to your inevitable reply

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its supposition on your part that theres a higher being than yahweh when theres been no reference to one whatsoever

Would you like to point out and name these other christian like supreme beings from DC so i can get back to you or are they like the backing for most of your counters immaterial?

I look forward to your inevitable reply

usually its "God" although its obvious that they are not the same god to most people who have been reading comics for a while

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
usually its "God" although its obvious that they are not the same god to most people who have been reading comics for a while

Like i thought. Immaterial.

So GS have you proven that ( with a scan) that PF created the multiverse yet?

Originally posted by kgkg
So GS have you proven that ( with a scan) that PF created the multiverse yet?

I posted scans saying that phoenix is the power of creation from which eternity and Galactus are formed. I also posted quotes from F4 calling Phoenix the greatest of the principalities and the well from which all life springs and draws its sustenance from. I then went on to post scans showing how Jean worked for the Crown as a caretaker of the multiverse. I think thats enough.

There was a nice bit on wikipedia as well about how the cosmic powers weigh up. I particularly loved the entry on LT and Phoenix:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Beings

don't tell me they've drawn YOU into their little war too, kg . . .

just be ready to duck . . .

tomato

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I posted scans saying that phoenix is the power of creation from which eternity and Galactus are formed. I also posted quotes from F4 calling Phoenix the greatest of the principalities and the well from which all life springs and draws its usstenance from. I then went on to post scans showing how Jean worked for the Crown as a caretaker of the multiverse. I think thats enough.
Ya and i have posted Scan of

PF = Big Bang = Creation = Universal

i mean do you have any reference to comic book where it says multiversal.

And ya i remember the same Reed said

Dark Pho might come close to Big G's power i can post scans for yall.

i mean ya creation etc but any facts from comic showing creation of Multiversal.

Originally posted by leonidas
don't tell me they've drawn YOU into their little war too, kg . . .

just be ready to duck . . .

tomato
I will play along

Originally posted by kgkg
Ya and i have posted Scan of

PF = Big Bang = Creation = Universal

i mean do you have any reference to comic book where it says multiversal.

And ya i remember the same Reed said

Dark Pho might come close to Big G's power i can post scans for yall.

i mean ya creation etc but any facts from comic showing creation of Multiversal.

If Eternities stem from the phoenix power then what more do you need mate? For Jean to be a caretaker of the multiverse for her phoenix work to include fixing broken universes from the Crown why do you need it to say the word multiverse when thats made quite apparrent on panel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If Eternities stem from the phoenix power then what more do you need mate? For Jean to be a caretaker of the multiverse for her phoenix work to include fixing broken universes from the Crown why do you need it to say the word multiverse when thats made quite apparrent on panel.
Stem power from Phoenix Force? can you simply that for me?

I mean Creation that you are taking about was referring to the big Bang.

as reed indicated

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If Eternities stem from the phoenix power then what more do you need mate? For Jean to be a caretaker of the multiverse for her phoenix work to include fixing broken universes from the Crown why do you need it to say the word multiverse when thats made quite apparrent on panel.

A bit off topics but whats the name of the explosion that killed St Michael

Originally posted by kgkg
Stem power from Phoenix Force? can you simply that for me?

I mean Creation that you are taking about was referring to the big Bang.

as reed indicated

"Galactus was formed from the energies of creation itself. Call it the big bang or phoenix force or what have you"

The phoenix force is the power of creation it sparks off creation by creating the big bang.

"Behold! The first level! The stars! Plasmatic geodes of concentrated cosmic life force. The source from which all other life springs. The first-- and in many ways greatest of the principalities. They are the most precious of things. Despite all their power, they are remarkably fragile. The well from which they draw their sustenance is subject to turbulance. Periodically, it ignites in the form of the Chaos-Bringer, predator of stars-- the Dark Phoenix. And yet, the Dark Phoenix merely serves evolution itself..."

Kubik in Fantastic Four Annual #23

Again the phoenix is the power of creation. It is the first level, the origin of all life and it sustains it with its energies.

Originally posted by yahman
A bit off topics but whats the name of the explosion that killed St Michael

demiurgic. It never killed Michael it was released as a result of his death. Its the creation power that god bestowed upon him.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
demiurgic. It never killed Michael it was released as a result of his death. Its the creation power that god bestowed upon him.

Do you think thats its based on Plato's Demiurge ?

Darksied was a badass in his silver ages.

Originally posted by yahman
Do you think thats its based on Plato's Demiurge ?

From reading Lucifer id say Gnosticism a safer bet.

Originally posted by Draco69
I feel like a freakin' parrot. GO. TO. DARKSEID. RESPECT. THREAD. COMIC. BOOK. FORUMS.

Calm down. Went to your thread.

At first I thought this was your scans, but c'mon your getting this from Jimmy-San? A Darkseid fanboy?

Please, I've seen this link a year ago. Some good feats, but I trust Jimmy-San as much as I trust GS. Hell, he's been banned from Superherochat.net board for his one-sided fanboyism of Darkseid.

Heck, the moderators won't even allow his name to be spoken in a post. Don't believe me? Register on that board and bring up Jimmy-San and Darkseid. They'll all tell you he's a fanboy at its worse.

No knowledgable posters there bought his take on any events.

I've read post of the guy. He writes essays like GS on the character. Heck, he even said Doomsday was Kurse level just to say Darkseid destroyed a Kurse level being and was hurt by one.



What part are you talking about?



Um no. Where are you getting this from? He wants to control every life in the universe; hence, it's called Anti-"Life" Equation. It allows you to control every living thing in the universe. However, it's STILL below the Infinity Gauntlet.

Why? The Gauntlet allowed control of the Mind, Soul, Space, Time, Power, and Reality. The IG was omnipotent (too a degree, ex: bc LT, HOTU, etc); Darkseid isn't omnipotent.

Even with the ALE, it's still not a guarantee he'd control beings like Eternity, Infinity, the Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc. They're living, but also not. Ex: the Celestials operate from hyperspace dimension, the bodies are only shells to operate in the 3rd. How does the ALE have power over them?

So even with the ALE, he isn't going to beat an IG wielder or Lucifer much less the Presence.




Um, no. The Source and the Presence are two different things. Michael speaks and acts on the Presence behalf. So does Spectre.



Write what? He weakened Anti-Monitor, Superman killed Anti-Monitor. He even used a machine and Alex to channel the OE. He didn't out right kill Anti-Monitor himself.

Nobodies denying PC Darkseid is powerful. I've always said he was powerful in post regarding him. But he ain't omnipotent. Nor is more on Galactus' level.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
From reading Lucifer id say Gnosticism a safer bet.

Sorry .... but what is that ?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well as Dc follows kaballah principles (i.e the involvement of the brothers in the making of creation, the function and names of the aspects) id have to disagree with that. Keter/Crown/Presence (all the same thing) are the closest creation comes to the Unknowable, Unmanifest God. However the aspects are all just emanation points for gods essence on the tree of life and as such are equal. They only differ in role and function. Dont mistake role and function for power.

Yahweh is the unknowable, unmanifest god. He/it is supreme. The Presence and the other aspects are all parts of him which touch creation and they are all equal:

Yahweh
Presence/Source/Word
Lucifer/Michael

What isn't Kaballah principle according to you G.S.?

I'll say it again, we're talking about the DC Universe - not the Kaballahverse?

And no, it's the Marvel Universe G.S. - not the Kaballahverse.

And no, LT isn't Metatron.

Originally posted by Beyonder
What isn't Kaballah principle according to you G.S.?

I'll say it again, we're talking about the DC Universe - not the Kaballahverse?

And no, it's the Marvel Universe G.S. - not the Kaballahverse.

And no, LT isn't Metatron.

ya am confused kaballah wtf

Originally posted by Beyonder


Um, no. The Source and the Presence are two different things. Michael speaks and acts on the Presence behalf. So does Spectre.



You've misunderstood B. Theyre both aspects of one being. Like different sides of a coin. They have different roles but theyre very much on the same level.

Originally posted by Beyonder
What isn't Kaballah principle according to you G.S.?

I'll say it again, we're talking about the DC Universe - not the Kaballahverse?

And no, it's the Marvel Universe G.S. - not the Kaballahverse.

And no, LT isn't Metatron.

If you were well read you'd be able to spot the Kaballah references in both DC and Marvel a mile off. Its there, terms, refernces, roles and functions all match up. You aint clued up on it not my problem. Dont try and talk ish about my posts because of your ignorance.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
From reading Lucifer id say Gnosticism a safer bet.

Umm what is this ?

Somehow GS gets his wacky theories everywhere

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Somehow GS gets his wacky theories everywhere

And somehow Whirly always manages to dominate threads while contributing little of value. Spam master i bow down to you.

Originally posted by yahman
Umm what is this ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

And it mentions Plato as an origin.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
personal again. I didn't mention you in a personal way, as usually you wish to make the debate personal

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Somehow GS gets his wacky theories everywhere

Hmmmmmm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And somehow Whirly always manages to dominate threads while contributing little of value. Spam master i bow down to you.

I actually find most threads reasonably boring at the moment, which is why I tend to save my good stuff for the GDF at the moment. However debunking opinion cached as fact is always fun and in my opinion has great value.

Originally posted by yahman
And it mentions Plato as an origin.

No it says the term is referred to in both Platoism and Gnosticism. However if you read Lucifer and Sandman you'll see that their usage of the demiurge is very much in accordance with Gnosticism and Kaballah.

Originally posted by Draco69
PC Darkseid already killed Odin and absorbed the entire Asgardian Pantheon.

Um, when was this? News to me.

He's said to have killed pantheons and absorbed it. When did he kill Odin?



'kay, is DC Odin = Marvel Odin? DC Zeus = Marvel Odin? Or even DC Surtur for that matter?
DC Odin created a "pocket universe"
Marvel Odin's fight with Seth sent shock waves shaking the multiverse. It was having affects on stars and galaxies.

Marvel Surtur destroyed a galaxy to forge his sword. Did DC Surtur show anything like that? And please, Thunderbolt is skyfather level? Where is this coming from?



Please where are you getting this from? Your using a cross over as reference first off.

Secondly, Darkseid wasn't even with Galactus. Galactus was hungry; Darkseid wasn't. Galactus barely noticed Darkseid and was getting on with his business. Darkseid, on the other hand, was trying to get Galactus' attention.

And all the OE did was turned Galactus white. It didn't have an affect on Galactus other than that. Galactus that blast him on his butt.

By the end, Galactus left not because of a stalemate with Darkseid; he did it because Apokolips was already dead. Darkseid didn't stalemate or beat anything.

Also, Odin knocked out Surfer with a gesture.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I actually find most threads reasonably boring at the moment, which is why I tend to save my good stuff for the GDF at the moment. However debunking opinion cached as fact is always fun and in my opinion has great value.

Indeed

Its rubbish at the moment.

(No bloody comments about how simillar we are !!!!!!!!!!1 )

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I actually find most threads reasonably boring at the moment, which is why I tend to save my good stuff for the GDF at the moment. However debunking opinion cached as fact is always fun and in my opinion has great value.

Not when you dont offer an explanation im afraid. You just end up swamping a thread with spam.

You've been running on empty for quite some time now mate. Take a time out. Its really for the best.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No it says the term is referred to in both Platoism and Gnosticism. However if you read Lucifer and Sandman you'll see that their usage of the demiurge is very much in accordance with Gnosticism and Kaballah.

I've only just started learning philosophy so you might be right. But the Demiuge described by Plato is similar to the Big Bang theory and similar to the universe creating explosion of the dying Michael . (Sorry about the unusually bad spelling ... lets just say I'm with Puff smoking the magic dragon.... not thats cool or anything. )

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not when you dont offer an explanation im afraid. You just end up swamping a thread with spam.

You've been running on empty for quite some time now mate. Take a time out. Its really for the best.

Don't forget Jggg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not when you dont offer an explanation im afraid. You just end up swamping a thread with spam.

You've been running on empty for quite some time now mate. Take a time out. Its really for the best.

again personal not really where your Phoenix theories are concerned, hollow answers come easily to empty ideas.

Originally posted by yahman
Don't forget Jggg

I must admit even i laughed for a bit.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I must admit even i laughed for a bit.

There was a hint of sarcasm B.T.W.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
again personal not really where your Phoenix theories are concerned, hollow answers come easily to empty ideas.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
personal again. I didn't mention you in a personal way, as usually you wish to make the debate personal

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Somehow GS gets his wacky theories everywhere

Hmmmmmm

Originally posted by yahman
There was a hint of sarcasm B.T.W.

Do you really think im that oblivious.

I was just being honest.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hmmmmmm

yup everytime the idea is criticised

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
yup everytime the idea is criticised

Oh well

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh well

because its very silly

Originally posted by Beyonder
Um, when was this? News to me.

He's said to have killed pantheons and absorbed it. When did he kill Odin?

In the late 80s/early 90s. Do you have an aversion to the respect thread or something. Does bite you everytime you try to click the mouse?

You not helping yourself. LOOK AND READ the respect thread. THEN argue.

Stop asking questions to which there already answers.


Originally posted by Beyonder
'kay, is DC Odin = Marvel Odin? DC Zeus = Marvel Odin? Or even DC Surtur for that matter?

What makes you automatically assume that Marvel's Odin is more powerful?

Oh because you didn't bother to read about DC Odin or anyother DC cosmic beings.

Originally posted by Beyonder
DC Odin created a "pocket universe"

Yeah. Something that Odin has never done. DC Odin on the other hand has. Easily.

That's an ENTIRE universe. Planets. Galaxies. Puppies and flowers. Etc.



Originally posted by Beyonder
Marvel Odin's fight with Seth sent shock waves shaking the multiverse. It was having affects on stars and galaxies.

That's nice. So?

Originally posted by Beyonder
Marvel Surtur destroyed a galaxy to forge his sword. Did DC Surtur show anything like that? And please, Thunderbolt is skyfather level? Where is this coming from?

So did DC Surtur.

Thunderbolt (Pre-Crisis) is from the 5th Dimension. He had the power to do ANYTHING he was ordered to. Thunderbolt was a force to be reckoned with. In one ridiculous issue he used a galaxy as friggin umbrella.

Also the imps have battled the likes of Satryne, Takion and even Spectre.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Please where are you getting this from? Your using a cross over as reference first off.

You are joking right? Right? I have said again and again go to the Darkseid Respect Thread. If I have to say it one. more. time.



Originally posted by Beyonder
Also, Odin knocked out Surfer with a gesture.

Again so?

Here's what bugs me. "Marvel Odin defeated Seth! DC Odin never did that!"

Assumptions, assumptions. Biased ones at that.

GO. TO. RESPECT. THREAD.

You're not helping yourself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Do you really think im that oblivious.

I was just being honest.

Anyway back to ...

'I've only just started learning philosophy so you might be right. But the Demiuge described by Plato is similar to the Big Bang theory and similar to the universe creating explosion of the dying Michael . (Sorry about the unusually bad spelling ... lets just say I'm with Puff smoking the magic dragon.... not thats cool or anything. )'

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
because its very silly

Come on grumpy. Im content with my work be happy for me

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Come on grumpy. Im content with my work be happy for me

Said Adolf to Eva.

Originally posted by yahman
Anyway back to ...

'I've only just started learning philosophy so you might be right. But the Demiuge described by Plato is similar to the Big Bang theory and similar to the universe creating explosion of the dying Michael . (Sorry about the unusually bad spelling ... lets just say I'm with Puff smoking the magic dragon.... not thats cool or anything. )'

Dont worry about the spelling. I dont.

Read some Lucifer. If you give me your e-mail i can send you all the issues over a few weeks. Theres only 65

After that read up on Plato and Gnosticism and then make up your own mind. This could be a fun debate in the future.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont worry about the spelling. I dont.

Read some Lucifer. If you give me your e-mail i can send you all the issues over a few weeks. Theres only 65

After that read up on Plato and Gnosticism and then make up your own mind. This could be a fun debate in the future.

My E-Mail is buggered. I need a new account. I'll get one of my bitches in my hall. to set up a new one up 4 me.

hmm, ya know, ive been reading and reading this theory of yours for quite some time now, without really commenting. i suppose it's time. i'd be a lot more willing to follow along with your theories if:

1. there wasn't an obvious 'pick-and-choose' on your part. there may indeed be a couple similarities between marvel cosmology and kabbalah, but the similarities are FAR outweighed by the dis-similarities. there is no tree of life in marvel, no sephiroths, and many of the other key kabbahlistic principles (if such a mish-mash of esoteric thoughts, conjectures and theories can truly HAVE universal principles) are left out of your comparison. you choose from several different interpretations of kabbalah, something in itself that has changed and evolved for over 2000 years. it's not impossible to find similarities to kabbalah almost ANYWHERE, if one is willing to dig. some people actually claim it served in cracking the 'bible code'! the subject is SOOOO broad and has so many existent variations/branches, that it would be more surprising if ANY cosmology DIDN'T share similarities with parts of it. aspects of kabbalah have drifted into our cultural mindset and most don't even know what it is. someone earlier mentioned kabbalah/gnosticism -- the fact is the 2 DO share many similarities (not least of which is the esoteric nature of both). the idea of dualism that kabbalah inadvertently leads to can be traced directly to gnosticism. the notion of 'metatron as lt' is essentially a gnostic assertion. so now is the comparison you make to gnosticism, or kabbalah?

2. marvel hadn't also shown a propensity for delving into, exploring and using a host of OTHER mythologies. why should similarities to ONE doctrine, be viewed anymore significantly than marvel's treatment of the various other 'religions' (norse beliefs, greek beliefs, hindu, incan, mayan . . .) the fact that certain things in marvel's (for the moment) highest level of hierarchy share a couple similarities with kabbalah, really isn't any reason to attach any more importance to your purported view than i attach to marvel's interpretation of any of the other mythologies they have plumbed. in fact, it may even ben seen as being LESS significant -- BECAUSE they have used so many other 'religious' (for lack of a better term) sources in the past, it seems almost inevitable that they would eventually set their sights on a recently reviving doctrine like kabbalah. but a couple similarities does not a doctrine make.

3. there was any value at all in accepting this theory you have been postulating and restating over and over again. even if you are right, it only allows a further understanding of the characters involved until the next retcon! and not even that with confidence. or perhaps a new writer will simply create yet another 'ultimate being'.

you've done a great deal of theorizing on this subject, and frankly i'm not sure why (other than to show everyone that you're a reasonably intelligent guy). dig deep enough and you can find similarities or conspiracies everywhere. doesn't make the similarities or conspiracies real, OR relevent.

of course, it may simply be that one of the illuminati has infiltrated marvel's upper echelons. perhaps in the grand lodge, the illuminati grand master and the writer work together to seed comics with kabbalistic terminology that if deciphered correctly, will explain to everyone just why everyone hates wolverine so much and why the little bastard is considered to be so tough . . .

another meaing for keter is Gods Will aka The Source/TOAA in creation, The Presence is Gods Holy Presence aka The Holy Spirit, galacticstorm u urself must now agree with me about TOAA being The Source, they are the same, nobody knows Yahweh but through his aspects he works through, The Living Tribunals JOB is to make sure everything in the Marvel Multiverse is working correct, he makes sure Gods will is being done, and is the Guardian of it. The Living Tribunal has never talked to Yahweh but he has talked to TOAA"The Source", even though TOAA is above everything in the marvel/dc multiverses he is not literally above Yahweh, he is above everyone and everything.

This is how it should be:
Yahweh
The Presence/The Source/The Great Evil Beast
The Word/The Voice.
Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael
The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/Archangel Gabriel/Metatron
The First of the Fallen

This is the type of shit I really dig reading.

Originally posted by kevdude
another meaing for keter is Gods Will aka The Source/TOAA in creation, The Presence is Gods Holy Presence aka The Holy Spirit, galacticstorm u urself must now agree with me about TOAA being The Source, they are the same, nobody knows Yahweh but through his aspects he works through, The Living Tribunals JOB is to make sure everything in the Marvel Multiverse is working correct, he makes sure Gods will is being done, and is the Guardian of it. The Living Tribunal has never talked to Yahweh but he has talked to TOAA"The Source", even though TOAA is above everything in the marvel/dc multiverses he is not literally above Yahweh, he is above everyone and everything.

This is how it should be:
Yahweh
The Presence/The Source/The Great Evil Beast
The Word/The Voice.
Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael
The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/Archangel Gabriel/Metatron
The First of the Fallen

Good

Yahweh/TOAA (it has never been mentioned TOAA=The Source, TOAA=Yahweh in Marvel)
The Presence/The Source/The Great Evil Beast/Phoenix Force (Pheonix Force the same as The Presnece, the same meaning between Yawheh and The Presence as is between TOAA and Phoenix Force)
The Word/The Voice.
Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael
The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/Archangel Gabriel/Metatron
The First of the Fallen

On to the DC Odin feat that is being discussed here:

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5658/sandman026152ed.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/342/sandman026164hk.jpg

"Both" Odin have crazy feats.

Now I dont seem to be able to see the scans in the Darkseid thread. What are the high end feats of DC Zeus? He never strike me as someone in that level of power.

Both on its own and with assistance if need be.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, ya know, ive been reading and reading this theory of yours for quite some time now, without really commenting. i suppose it's time. i'd be a lot more willing to follow along with your theories if:

1. there wasn't an obvious 'pick-and-choose' on your part. there may indeed be a couple similarities between marvel cosmology and kabbalah, but the similarities are FAR outweighed by the dis-similarities. there is no tree of life in marvel, no sephiroths, and many of the other key kabbahlistic principles (if such a mish-mash of esoteric thoughts, conjectures and theories can truly HAVE universal principles) are left out of your comparison. you choose from several different interpretations of kabbalah, something in itself that has changed and evolved for over 2000 years. it's not impossible to find similarities to kabbalah almost ANYWHERE, if one is willing to dig. some people actually claim it served in cracking the 'bible code'! the subject is SOOOO broad and has so many existent variations/branches, that it would be more surprising if ANY cosmology DIDN'T share similarities with parts of it. aspects of kabbalah have drifted into our cultural mindset and most don't even know what it is. someone earlier mentioned kabbalah/gnosticism -- the fact is the 2 DO share many similarities (not least of which is the esoteric nature of both). the idea of dualism that kabbalah inadvertently leads to can be traced directly to gnosticism. the notion of 'metatron as lt' is essentially a gnostic assertion. so now is the comparison you make to gnosticism, or kabbalah?

2. marvel hadn't also shown a propensity for delving into, exploring and using a host of OTHER mythologies. why should similarities to ONE doctrine, be viewed anymore significantly than marvel's treatment of the various other 'religions' (norse beliefs, greek beliefs, hindu, incan, mayan . . .) the fact that certain things in marvel's (for the moment) highest level of hierarchy share a couple similarities with kabbalah, really isn't any reason to attach any more importance to your purported view than i attach to marvel's interpretation of any of the other mythologies they have plumbed. in fact, it may even ben seen as being LESS significant -- BECAUSE they have used so many other 'religious' (for lack of a better term) sources in the past, it seems almost inevitable that they would eventually set their sights on a recently reviving doctrine like kabbalah. but a couple similarities does not a doctrine make.

3. there was any value at all in accepting this theory you have been postulating and restating over and over again. even if you are right, it only allows a further understanding of the characters involved until the next retcon! and not even that with confidence. or perhaps a new writer will simply create yet another 'ultimate being'.

you've done a great deal of theorizing on this subject, and frankly i'm not sure why (other than to show everyone that you're a reasonably intelligent guy). dig deep enough and you can find similarities or conspiracies everywhere. doesn't make the similarities or conspiracies real, OR relevent.

Stunning post Leo absolutely stunning.

If I may repost a post I made last night in a previous thread about a less esoteric flaw in GS's reasoning.

OK What you fail to understand Galactic Storm is this that the magic Vertigo titles (Hellblazer, Sandman, Tim Hunter, Lucifer) diverged from mainstream DCU continuity, though they enjoy occasionally borrowing characters. I'm also getting the feeling that the Vertigo titles are diverging from each other as well (this feels natural, for the Vertigo books are very self-empowered; about philosophy rather than iconic characters). For instance, Hellblazer doesn't seem to have noticed the changes wrought in the Lucifer series (despite Constantine's cameo in an early issue). I realise John's affairs are small fry compared to Lucifer's cosmic struggle, but surely the abdication of God and the reforms in Hell must have would have some impact.

As you say Leo it is obvious GS is relativly intelligent, unfortunately, his ideas like most religious ideas are supposition and interpretation. Evidence takes a back seat.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
As you say Leo it is obvious GS is relativly intelligent, unfortunately, his ideas like most religious ideas are supposition and interpretation. Evidence takes a back seat.

We all saw LT kneeling to Phoenix.

Originally posted by Xplosive
We all saw LT kneeling to Phoenix.

yes in the future which is not set in a frame which is not now it means nothing

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
yes in the future which is not set in a frame which is not now it means nothing

It means Phoenix is above LT, and LT knows that. Phoenix is clearly above LT, that won't except only ones who hates Pheonix.

I don't know why it's so hard to except this.

Originally posted by Xplosive
It means Phoenix is above LT, and LT knows that. Phoenix is clearly above LT, that won't except only ones who hates Pheonix.

not really a single possible future frame proves nothing. Leo's post makes much more sense. I actually don't hate Phoenix at all.

Originally posted by kevdude
another meaing for keter is Gods Will aka The Source/TOAA in creation, The Presence is Gods Holy Presence aka The Holy Spirit, galacticstorm u urself must now agree with me about TOAA being The Source, they are the same, nobody knows Yahweh but through his aspects he works through, The Living Tribunals JOB is to make sure everything in the Marvel Multiverse is working correct, he makes sure Gods will is being done, and is the Guardian of it. The Living Tribunal has never talked to Yahweh but he has talked to TOAA"The Source", even though TOAA is above everything in the marvel/dc multiverses he is not literally above Yahweh, he is above everyone and everything.

This is how it should be:
Yahweh
The Presence/The Source/The Great Evil Beast
The Word/The Voice.
Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael
The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/Archangel Gabriel/Metatron
The First of the Fallen

also more sensible than Galactic Storms ideas Kev

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, ya know, ive been reading and reading this theory of yours for quite some time now, without really commenting. i suppose it's time. i'd be a lot more willing to follow along with your theories if:

1. there wasn't an obvious 'pick-and-choose' on your part. there may indeed be a couple similarities between marvel cosmology and kabbalah, but the similarities are FAR outweighed by the dis-similarities. there is no tree of life in marvel, no sephiroths, and many of the other key kabbahlistic principles (if such a mish-mash of esoteric thoughts, conjectures and theories can truly HAVE universal principles) are left out of your comparison. you choose from several different interpretations of kabbalah, something in itself that has changed and evolved for over 2000 years. it's not impossible to find similarities to kabbalah almost ANYWHERE, if one is willing to dig. some people actually claim it served in cracking the 'bible code'! the subject is SOOOO broad and has so many existent variations/branches, that it would be more surprising if ANY cosmology DIDN'T share similarities with parts of it. aspects of kabbalah have drifted into our cultural mindset and most don't even know what it is. someone earlier mentioned kabbalah/gnosticism -- the fact is the 2 DO share many similarities (not least of which is the esoteric nature of both). the idea of dualism that kabbalah inadvertently leads to can be traced directly to gnosticism. the notion of 'metatron as lt' is essentially a gnostic assertion. so now is the comparison you make to gnosticism, or kabbalah?

2. marvel hadn't also shown a propensity for delving into, exploring and using a host of OTHER mythologies. why should similarities to ONE doctrine, be viewed anymore significantly than marvel's treatment of the various other 'religions' (norse beliefs, greek beliefs, hindu, incan, mayan . . .) the fact that certain things in marvel's (for the moment) highest level of hierarchy share a couple similarities with kabbalah, really isn't any reason to attach any more importance to your purported view than i attach to marvel's interpretation of any of the other mythologies they have plumbed. in fact, it may even ben seen as being LESS significant -- BECAUSE they have used so many other 'religious' (for lack of a better term) sources in the past, it seems almost inevitable that they would eventually set their sights on a recently reviving doctrine like kabbalah. but a couple similarities does not a doctrine make.

3. there was any value at all in accepting this theory you have been postulating and restating over and over again. even if you are right, it only allows a further understanding of the characters involved until the next retcon! and not even that with confidence. or perhaps a new writer will simply create yet another 'ultimate being'.

you've done a great deal of theorizing on this subject, and frankly i'm not sure why (other than to show everyone that you're a reasonably intelligent guy). dig deep enough and you can find similarities or conspiracies everywhere. doesn't make the similarities or conspiracies real, OR relevent.

Awesome post, it really is

Galactic Storm has been putting facts all the time. He is right about Phoenix being beyond LT and others.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Galactic Storm has been putting facts all the time. He is right about Phoenix being beyond LT and others.

Well lots of people as you can see, don't consider GS supposition as facts

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Well lots of people as you can see, don't consider GS supposition as facts

Like about Lucifer, that GS proved right with pictures, about Phoenix creating abstracts, is primal force, showin LT kneeling to Phoenix.

thanks whirly. and really, it was not meant to be insulting in anyway to gs. it's just i'm not sure why it's worth digging and digging into . . . comic books like this. as someone who has done a fair share of writing, i can see (and well relate to the notion that) certain ideas can be irresistible and can be used to add a sense of . . . realism, or a seemingly 'symbolic' facet to a fictionialized piece of writing. but just because certain ideas have been scavenged, (ie similarities in marvel cosmology to kabbalah) doesn't mean the parallels ARE real or that they are intended to be followed.

and darkeid makes it to galactus imho. i think at that point it's kind of a 50/50 thing. because darkseid's power does not fluctuate as g's does, i think it would take a high powered g to battle him. i wonder if kirby ever intended for there to be a FULL POWERED galactus. i also can't help wondering what he would think of both the evolution of darkseid and of galactus. personally, i don't think he'd be particularly overjoyed with either . . .

Originally posted by Xplosive
Like about Lucifer, that GS proved right with pictures, about Phoenix creating abstracts, is primal force, showin LT kneeling to Phoenix.
gs is a croc.....

<<Like about Lucifer, that GS proved right with pictures, about Phoenix creating abstracts, is primal force, showin LT kneeling to Phoenix.>>

this has been debated ad nauseum. AND it's in the wrong thread. amazing how every high powered thread turns into a phoenix thread . . .