Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who would win??

I think ganthet would easily win

Ganthet the guardian? Puh-lease

We've already debated that Anti-Monitor couldnt do it so im quite puzzled by this.

ganthet is more powerful than the spectre, and is billions of years old, and the greatest guardian ever.

Originally posted by eleveninches
ganthet is more powerful than the spectre, and is billions of years old, and the greatest guardian ever.

Good for him.

Jeans one with the power of creation from which all life in Marvel derives from. Oh and in a crossover with Dc Phoenix and the Source were shown to be the same thing. Is Ganthet more powerful than the Source?

he is more powerful than jean gray phoenix

she is only a mortal mutant, after all. he is immortal

Originally posted by eleveninches
he is more powerful than jean gray phoenix

Oh thats a good counter argument.

Based on what? Your love for the character?

Originally posted by eleveninches
she is only a mortal mutant, after all. he is immortal

She isnt a mortal mutant thats where you're wrong. It always helps to do a little research into the characters before a starting a versus match on them.

Or you could start off your thread by stating that you know little about one of the featured characters so can someone help you out. Id be glad to.

she got killed. by magneto. if she died, she isnt immortal.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh thats a good counter argument.

Based on what? Your love for the character? on the fact that he is more powerful than the spectre, and jean gray is just a person who managed to use the phoenix force. she isnt the same AS the phoenix force.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2369/xmes05104ci.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8959/xmes05110bi.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7494/xmes05121be.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4963/xmes05137wi.jpg

You were saying?

You have the old retcon phoenix cemented into your head. Get rid of that idea. That was not how phoenix was in its first appearance and its not how Phoenix is in current continuity.

Jean is literally phoenix. There is no seperate firebird entity. That is merely a physical manifestation of Jeans power.

Dark Phoenix was Jean. It was her phoenix essence. A shard of her.

Ganthet = no match

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You were saying?

You have the old retcon phoenix cemented into your head. Get rid of that idea. That was not how phoenix was in its first appearance and its not how Phoenix is in current continuity.

Jean is literally phoenix. There is no seperate firebird entity. That is merely a physical manifestation of Jeans power.

Dark Phoenix was Jean. It was her phoenix essence. A shard of her. so how can phoenix be the power of creation AND be jean gray at the same time? She was born less than 100 years ago, but the power of creation was around a long time before that

Jean is just the closest thing Phoenix has to a human form. She is the true avatar (direct manifestation of something on the physical plane) Theothers such as Rachel and Giraud are just hosts for this power. They wield a shard of Jean power. In Excalibur Rachel asked Phoenix to show its true form:

^true story.

Originally posted by Pointinel
^true story.

Thank you.

Originally posted by eleveninches


Whassup?

Originally posted by eleveninches


Well now you know so its cool. Thats what this is all about anyway. Just debating and finding out more about the characters from the comics we all love.

As for why she died:

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/7365/newxmen128153ml.jpg

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/8110/dsc0014518pz.jpg

http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/2919/dsc001500iz.jpg

http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/4072/dsc001551se.jpg

http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/8127/dsc0016710yl.jpg

So basically the Crown had decreed she had Phoenix work to perform in the future therefore she wasnt allowed to stay in the 616 reality. To be reborn into the future she had to die.

...GS.

Seriously need to resize ALL THOSE PICTURES.

I can't get one thing out of them because they're so big.

And these latest ones are just blurry as hell as well.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So basically the Crown had decreed she had Phoenix work to perform in the future therefore she wasnt allowed to stay in the 616 reality. To be reborn into the future she had to die. Realistically, Pheonix should beat him, and in my opinion probably should, but if it's written in comic... well, it wouldn't be the first time Ganthet had to step in and fight off an aspect of god. The Spectre and Pheonix and any characters of this type only lose when god wills it so. They are subject to it and it only.However, Ganthet is likely the next higher teir after these beings. He is crazy powerful.

edit.

Ganthet more powerful then THE SPECTRE??? WHERE Has it ever been shown he is more powerful??? The Spectre could have destroyed Parallax if he wanted to, it did not bother him so he left. Ganthet was there and he couldn't do anything to Parallax, so much for ganthet being more powerful then The Spectre . White Crown Phoenix wins..

Originally posted by kevdude
Ganthet more powerful then THE SPECTRE??? WHERE Has it ever been shown he is more powerful??? The Spectre could have destroyed Parallax if he wanted to, it did not bother him so he left. Ganthet was there and he couldn't do anything to Parallax, so much for ganthet being more powerful then The Spectre . White Crown Phoenix wins..

It was said in Green Lantern: Rebirth #3

Ganthet: "Kilowog is free from your influence. Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians'."

Parallax: "You said the spectre was nothing compared to your power Guardian and Parallax still lives"

it was a way for Parallax to say he was poking fun to Ganthet that he THINKS he is SOOOO powerful he is more powerful then The Spectre which he is NOT. if Ganthet was so powerful how could The Spectre kick him out of his body/spirit while Ganthet was having a very hard time even talking while Parallax was in HIS body??? Parallax didn't even dare LOOK at The Spectre when they was separated because he knew if he tried it The Spectre could take him out ez.

Hal Jordan said this right after they was separated from Parallax.
"w-We did it. together. Now destroy... DESTROY Parallax"
The Spectre then tells Hal
"Do NOT order me. I am Not your RING. I am The Spectre. And I have interfered ENOUGH. Your soul is free of the DISEASE".

Hal did not ask anyone else to destroy Parallax because he KNEW nobody else would be able to destroy it. The Spectre could have destroyed Parallax, and Ganthet is no way more powerful then The Spectre.

1) Ganthet is more powerful than the Spectre. They say so, and nobody disputes it in the comics. First off, Spectre seperating Parallax and Hal was not a terribly great feat. Hell, 5 Green Lanterns did the same thing to seperate Parallax from Ganthet. Second, Hal did most of the work anyway. Lastly, just because Hal asked the Spectre to destroy Parallax doesn't mean, he would, could or should have.
2) Jean = Phoenix is probably the stupidest thing I have EVER heard. I can't believe Marvel editors actually let Claremont get away with this garbage. Claremont himself stated that the Dark Phoenix saga should have been left alone and that the swap and switch to bring Jean back to life was stupid. Now, he is going back on everything and here he is bastardizing his precious baby. He thinks what writers did in bringing back Jean Grey was stupid, via an egg in the ocean? He just completely did away with all the drama and sacrifice of the Dark Phoenix when she sacrificed herself for love, with the stupidest plot device EVER. At least the explanation of the Dark Phoenix trying to mimic humans and not being able to deal with emotions like love was somewhat poetic!

AND here I am, defending the original Phoenix saga and I NEVER was a fan of that damn storyline anyway! X-Men running around fist-fighting with aliens to decide the fate of the universe was completely outside the scope of the X-Men and the premise of mutants in the first place. It belonged in an Avengers book. It was bigger, badder for the sake of being bigger and badder.

Now, it just got worse. Jean Grey's character, everything she did for mutants, her relationship with Scott, is completely cast aside for the sake of universal stakes and cosmic opera that makes Green Lantern: Rebirth look like a Pullitzer prize for comic continuity and legitimacy. No wonder the editors did away with Phoenix in their current X-books and no wonder they're doing so well now. The character is stupid and so are the explanations. They're going back to the basics of mutants. Bigotry in all its forms and consequences and heroism in the face of it. Marvel should retcon Phoenix as soon as humanely possible and leave X-Men The End as a damn What If? storyline and pelt Claremont with dog feces.

Ganthet is not more powerful then the Spectre, there is no way he is more powerful then Gods Wrath. Parallax even states when he is ready to enter Ganthets body: "without jordan's soul, without the spirit of vengeance. I have no hands holding me in PLACE.. You said the Spectre was NOTHING compared to YOUR power Gaurdian . And Parallax still LIVES. In YOU." rit there tells anyone Parallax is again POKING FUN at Ganthet for thinking he is more powerful then The Spectre.

Oh and Hal asked Spectre to help him separate from Parallax, and if u look at the picture of The Spectre separating all 3 of them it SHOWS The Spectre doing MOST OF THE WORK not Hal. Ganthet had the help of 5 of the Greatest GLs EVER getting him separated from Parallax. after he was separated he looked like he almost dead. yes Ganthet is powerful but not as powerful as the Spectre.......... Ganthet more powerful then Spectre is like saying he's as powerful as Archangel Michael and everyone knows he will never be that powerful.

Originally posted by kevdude
... Parallax even states when he is ready to enter Ganthets body: "without jordan's soul, without the spirit of vengeance. I have no hands holding me in PLACE.. You said the Spectre was NOTHING compared to YOUR power Gaurdian . And Parallax still LIVES. In YOU." rit there tells anyone Parallax is again POKING FUN at Ganthet for thinking he is more powerful then The Spectre. I can't understand how you would construe that as poking fun. The reason for his final comment is to show the reader and everybody around them, that if Parallax leeches onto Ganthet, he'd be more dangerous and more powerful than he was when he leeched himself onto Hal and the Spectre. Its called 'raising the stakes.'

It's what authors usually do when they lead up to their climax. I doubt Geoff Johns purposely 'lowered the stakes' for the final act. His and the artist's character designs even make this 'Ganthet version' of Parallax more monstrous and fearsome than the 'Hal and Spectre version' of Parallax. If you're assuming that I would believe that, now you're just plain insulting me.

Originally posted by kevdude
Oh and Hal asked Spectre to help him separate from Parallax, and if u look at the picture of The Spectre separating all 3 of them it SHOWS The Spectre doing MOST OF THE WORK not Hal. Ganthet had the help of 5 of the Greatest GLs EVER getting him separated from Parallax. after he was separated he looked like he almost dead. yes Ganthet is powerful but not as powerful as the Spectre.......... Ganthet more powerful then Spectre is like saying he's as powerful as Archangel Michael and everyone knows he will never be that powerful. You my friend, need to read Rebirth more carefully. You're miscontruing Parallax's statements with your preconceptions again. But if you want Parallax's statements to be truth, here's one humdinger for you. Earlier in the series Parallax is mocking Hal Jordan and the Spectre comparing the two within their trinity as mere hosts. Parallax > Spectre (serves as host for Parallax) > Hal Jordan (serves as host for Spectre). So what about that? In your version of how the story works out, Parallax is literally contradicting himself.

Secondly, Hal did most of the work there buddy. He remembered fear and fought against it. That was Parallax's weakness. And he weakened Parallax's leech-hold onto him so much, that the writer and artist rendered Hal Jordan as literally ripping Parallax apart with his own soul. After that, Spectre provided the final flash of power to help him finish the job. If you don't believe that, then just read what Spectre says to Hal Jordan halfway through the series! After all, Spectre says HIMSELF, he had been trying to burn the infection out by grafting his soul onto Jordan's and yet, he couldn't do it. The ENTIRE time they were grafted, Spectre didn't accomplish anything and Parallax just gained strength while inside Jordan. This escalation of power and danger only turned itself around because Jordan rose up, discovered the truth and fought it himself. In the end, for you to win your argument, it is necessary to assume that Ganthet and Parallax were lying when Ganthet said his power dwarfed the Spectre's. How in the hell is that a rational assumption? I'm sorry to point it out, but only your incorrect preconceptions are leading you to assume this.

im not insulting u at all onebumbgo we are just talking, sorry if i offended u in any way. i have read rebirth many times and again just got done reading most of it.

about Spectre/Parallax though, it does not make sense for Parallax to be more powerful then Spectre. they indeed lowered the stakes sorta in power wise but replaced it with adding more drama making Ganthet be the 1 that was infested with Parallax then Hal/Spectre. The GL's are then fighting to save Ganthet from Parallax (kinda more interesting then Parallax trying to infest The Spectre when everyone knows or should know he is no match for The Spectre).

About the host part, while Parallax is being way to over confident/contradicting in himself he says they are nothing but host's to him ( we know otherwise).. About Spectre trying to burn it up himself, it seems he was trying to get rid of Parallax for Hal by himself but the main reason he couldn't do it was because he needed help from Hal too help him, that is the hole reason in #3 while Hal/Spectre/Parallax are all talking with each other, Spectre says to Hal "You must see the truth, Hal Jordan. You must help me Fight it. The Truth about Parallax, the truth about Yourself". Once Hal was not afraid and fought against it The Spectre then stepped in and finished what Hal started. The only chance Parallax had at hurting Spectre was while he was connected with Hal, after they all was no longer connected Parallax didn't even look at The Spectre.

While the JLA and 3 GL members plus Ganthet was fighting the Parallax/Hal/Spectre they was not harming him at all. If Ganthet infected with Parallax was more powerful then Hal/Spectre w/Parallax then they would have needed more help from the JLA not just 5 GL members. Guy Guardian was amazed that The Spectre was even there and was surprised they all got ditched by him sorta saying to them "idc what happens to all of you, I have to get back to heaven God is calling me"

You ain't offending me. But, Spectre did not do most of the work. Hal was half way rid of Parallax and at that point, he asks for help. Spectre couldn't get rid of Parallax himself and since we seem to be in agreement on at least that, how can you give him more credit than Hal?

Second, the reason why the JLA, Titans, JSA and 3 Lanterns couldn't hurt Parallax-infected Spectre/Hal wasn't because he was more powerful at that time. It was because they didn't know HOW to fight it. Thats why a mere 5 Lanterns were able to take down P-infected Ganthet. They understood it and they used their rings as a conduit to trap Parallax.

For the theory of Spectre > Ganthet, you MUST assume these premises:
1) Ganthet is lying OR doesn't know what he's talking about.
2) Parallax is contradicting himself just so he can mock Ganthet.
3) The drama placed on Ganthet's possession derives from a love of the character rather than an emphasis on more danger.
4) The climax was written so that it was at its peak danger during issue #4 and lowered the stakes by #5-6.
5) The writer's and artist's designs were misleading.

For Ganthet > Spectre, those same premises are presented this way:
1) Ganthet is not lying AND knows what he's talking about.
2) Parallax never contradicts himself.
3) The drama from Ganthet's possession derives from a heightened crisis due to an increase in power.
4) The climax was written in #5 and #6 right before the resolution.
5) The writer's designs and artist's renditions were correct in making infected Ganthet much more massive and monstrous and intimidating.

Do you see where I'm getting at and why I'm getting there? Its the idea of Okham's razor. If its easier to explain it in one way, the reason is because that is the way it probably is. You're theory runs something like; Ganthet is an idiot, Parallax goes around making fun of people, the writer doesn't know basic story-telling and the depictions are flawed.

In the DC Legends 4 Part miniseries that kicked off his run as the Spectre, he stated and I'll quote...word by word the power he held as Paralax was "as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun" in comparison to The Spectre, and that was long before he unlocked The Spectre's full potential in his series.



Like I said, Ganthet is in the very highest tier in the powerful cosmics/godlikenesses, but if one of the Aspect Forces decides you need to die.. you die.. without question. This would never happen in the comic, the supreme being wouldn't allow it... but in the idea of VERSUS threads, that is what happens.

Originally posted by Juntai
In the DC Legends 4 Part miniseries that kicked off his run as the Spectre, he stated and I'll quote...word by word the power he held as Paralax was "as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun" in comparison to The Spectre, and that was long before he unlocked The Spectre's full potential in his series.



Like I said, Ganthet is in the very highest tier in the powerful cosmics/godlikenesses, but if one of the Aspect Forces decides you need to die.. you die.. without question. This would never happen in the comic, the supreme being wouldn't allow it... but in the idea of VERSUS threads, that is what happens. Funny then, how Spectre couldn't do a damn thing against Parallax in the more recent Green Lantern: Rebirth series. While I will believe every word you say, then the most logical thing to assume, is they apparently retconned it. Rebirth is more recent. They probably did it in anticipation of Day of Vengeance and Infinite Crisis. So in the idea of VERSUS threads, more recent material is regarded as more reliable as long as it doesn't involve PIS or CIS.

And I don't wanna hear comments on how Rebirth and Day of Vengeance are PIS or CIS, because these series,... like OMAC Project and Identity Crisis are setting stones for the damn revamp of DC comics. Geoff Johns, who wrote Rebirth is one of three authors who steered Infinite Crisis to where it is now and he's pretty much writing the actual series. So take those DC Legends miniseries and toss em,... apparently, they don't apply anymore.

Why all this talk? Phoenix wins unless someones disputing this?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Funny then, how Spectre couldn't do a damn thing against Parallax in the more recent Green Lantern: Rebirth series. While I will believe every word you say, then the most logical thing to assume, is they apparently retconned it. Rebirth is more recent. They probably did it in anticipation of Day of Vengeance and Infinite Crisis. So in the idea of VERSUS threads, more recent material is regarded as more reliable as long as it doesn't involve PIS or CIS.

And I don't wanna hear comments on how Rebirth and Day of Vengeance are PIS or CIS, because these series,... like OMAC Project and Identity Crisis are setting stones for the damn revamp of DC comics. Geoff Johns, who wrote Rebirth is one of three authors who steered Infinite Crisis to where it is now and he's pretty much writing the actual series. So take those DC Legends miniseries and toss em,... apparently, they don't apply anymore. But Hal's series as Spectre is what led us to this point, and you'd know that if you'd read them... God/The Logoz/Micheal.. everyone repeatedly told him the new age was coming from the very beginning in his run, and slowly led us to now. So much for throwing it out the window huh? The things Hal did in there, Ganthet would never be able to touch. Saying that Ganthet is more powerful than The Spectre is saying God is fallible, because The Spectre is only limited if DC's God wills it so, since it is a piece of the Almighty itself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why all this talk? Phoenix wins unless someones disputing this? I am agreeing, Aspects/Forces of the Almighty are only subject to it's will. No being outside of this can cause it's defeat. It one of them loses, it had a purpose to do so, but in the respect of a VERSUS thread, I'm lead to assume that this is not the way it is. And although Ganthet is in the very highest teir, he is not above the almighty in any of it's forms, be it Pheonix, Spectre or Godboy.

And just for a nail in the coffin... in the events where Hal BECAME the Spectre, Azreal had the Spectre Force power, and one of the first things he did after freezing hell and Neron, and erupting into the physical plane.. was to shut off Ganthet, Highfather, Shazam, and the rest of the quintessences' powers, and warned them not to interfere.

Just because Ganthet or other characters say things that are wrong does not mean they are lying or stupid, its just the writers are showing everyone they can be wrong sometimes.....Characters are allowed to have there own humor and it shows they are actual beings not just robots.

In #4 where the part The Spectre helps Hal separate from Parallax, it shows Spectre finishing the job Hal started and Hal not helping at all just falling away.

I don't really think of it as lowering the stakes, Ganthet was and is a very powerful being, in some ways it could be said they raised the stakes because they could have lost Ganthet to Parallax forever. Batman also says in the #1 that if Hal/Parallax get control of Spectre they will be close to unstoppable.

Hal knew The Spectre could destroy Parallax by himself, but its a GL book and how would everyone feel if Spectre took out Parallax while they have all of the GL and some members of JSA/JLA there to do it.. They made The Spectre leave because he wasn't needed no more, they also wanted to show all 5 of those GL's working together and getting rid of Parallax there own way.... Ganthet cannot be more powerful or as powerful as The Spectre, The Spectre gets his power from God/The Presence, Ganthet does not get his power from The Presence.

Originally posted by kevdude
Just because Ganthet or other characters say things that are wrong does not mean they are lying or stupid, its just the writers are showing everyone they can be wrong sometimes.....Characters are allowed to have there own humor and it shows they are actual beings not just robots.

In #4 where the part The Spectre helps Hal separate from Parallax, it shows Spectre finishing the job Hal started and Hal not helping at all just falling away.

I don't really think of it as lowering the stakes, Ganthet was and is a very powerful being, in some ways it could be said they raised the stakes because they could have lost Ganthet to Parallax forever. Batman also says in the #1 that if Hal/Parallax get control of Spectre they will be close to unstoppable.

Hal knew The Spectre could destroy Parallax by himself, but its a GL book and how would everyone feel if Spectre took out Parallax while they have all of the GL and some members of JSA/JLA there to do it.. They made The Spectre leave because he wasn't needed no more, they also wanted to show all 5 of those GL's working together and getting rid of Parallax there own way.... Ganthet cannot be more powerful or as powerful as The Spectre, The Spectre gets his power from God/The Presence, Ganthet does not get his power from The Presence. The Spectre is not a merely a creation of God/The Presence, if you've ever read them, he is actually a piece of God itself. Spectre is the old testament God, and is also the face of God in different forms to nearly all races across the multiverse.

onedumbGO, no attack intended, but why the crispy critter to you give a damn if the x-men took on something of cosmic importance instead of the avengers?

once again, no attack intended, it just always bothered me that people get their knickers in a twist when it comes to the x-men "overstepping their boundaries" in terms of power.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
why the crispy critter

I love that phrase

I agree its always bothered me as well. Why shouldnt the X-men be able to take on cosmic threats. Its not something they do all the time its just good for a bit of variety.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
... I agree its always bothered me as well. Why shouldnt the X-men be able to take on cosmic threats. Its not something they do all the time its just good for a bit of variety. Why is Batman popular? What are his roots? Vengeance and an unswerving oath/obsession to fulfill it no matter what or who gets in the way. Why are the X-Men historically popular? What are their roots? Bigotry and herosim in the face of it.

The stories that hold to this and extend from it are the essence of these characters. When you place the X-Men or Batman in a story where their roots have no place, you get somethin that ain't true to the characters themselves. Sure I could place Batman up against goon villain #521, but if its got nothing to do with his roots or what makes his character tick, what the hell's the point? This is what happened in Dark Phoenix saga and even X-Men the End. Claremont said, "Forget about bigotry, forget about inhumanity and hatred that forced these mutants to be heroes. Y'know what? It doesn't even matter that they're mutants. Let's go big and bad for the sake of cosmic opera, rather than human drama!"

If Star Wars was told where you only showed the battles and forgot about Skywalker's rise from peasant origin to hero or Vader's inner turmoil, you get a crap movie. This is how I first started thinking, "What a stupid story this Dark Phoenix saga is." I asked myself, how the hell are they going to turn this into the 3rd movie? You're gonna take Hugh Jackman & Anna Paquin into space, fist-fight aliens, and make one of your characters a cosmic entity? Do you have any idea how absurd this would appear to audiences and even to fans? People would ask, "Where the hell did that come from? It's just an excuse for fights and special effects. What happened to the war between mutants and humans? What happened to the things that made Wolvie and Rogue tick? WTF?" Take that thought and apply it to the comic and thats my problem with it.

Originally posted by Juntai
But Hal's series as Spectre is what led us to this point, and you'd know that if you'd read them... God/The Logoz/Micheal.. everyone repeatedly told him the new age was coming from the very beginning in his run, and slowly led us to now. So much for throwing it out the window huh? The things Hal did in there, Ganthet would never be able to touch. Saying that Ganthet is more powerful than The Spectre is saying God is fallible, because The Spectre is only limited if DC's God wills it so, since it is a piece of the Almighty itself. Very simple explanation then. God willed it so that Spectre is no longer as powerful as he used to be. In Day of Vengeance, the Shadowpact and Captain Marvel were about to kill him by focusing the magic of the few remaining sorcerers and magicians (few being relative in light of the fact that Spectre destroyed a lot of magic and sorcerers and cut people off from their power streams beforehand). It's not holding up anymore. If it doesn't hold up anymore, you can't cling to it. You don't bring up how Iceman sucks because he can only make snowballs because it just isn't true anymore. Just how weak do you think Ganthet wielding the power of the guardians is? Parallax wielding the power of the guardians remade the entire damn universe. I never saw Spectre do this.

This argument of Spectre can't be weaker because he's an aspect of God is ridiculous. They aren't the same thing. This is a fallacious assumption and you're missing premises. All you have to do, is insert a premise and see if this holds up. One I can think of is this. Spectre can't do anything wrong because he's an aspect of God. Well what the hell is happening now in Day of Vengeance? Spectre can't be weakened or threatened with destruction because he's an aspect of God. Spectre got spanked and says himself that they nearly destroyed him. You're argument inevitably leads to this, Spectre is the most powerful being because he's an aspect of God. And yet, that statement in itself is flawed because you exclude God. If you understand the fallacy, then you realize there are beings stronger than the Spectre. Everything in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance points to this fact. If it contradicts earlier material, scratch it up to God's will if it makes you happy.

And just FYI, I was hella surprised to find out Spectre was weaker also. I always thought he was the most powerful also. But if Geoff Johns and the rest of the DC crew are using him in this fashion, I'm not going to stick to my crumbling preconceptions in the face of new evidence that is clearly not PIS. That's the plain bottom line. Things change.

And to keep the assumption that Spectre is more powerful, you basically have to assume the 5 things that I listed up there or explain them away somehow. The fact that they are diffucult to explain away should point out to you, especially in light of Day of Vengeance that it makes more sense that Spectre isn't as powerful as you think. Is it that hard to let go?

Also the Shadowpact was tapping into several pantheons, dead gods, the heros, even individuals.. it was like the universe was fighting back at him. Your statement is irrelivent when its the universe vs Spectre.


be back, gotta work for 8

Originally posted by Juntai
Also the Shadowpact was tapping into several pantheons, dead gods, the heros, even individuals.. it was like the universe was fighting back at him. Your statement is irrelivent when its the universe vs Spectre... Incorrect because it is illogical. He destroyed many sources of magic first off and your argument is fatally flawed anyway. Why? Because if Spectre is an aspect of God and thus unstoppable as you say, how can he be stopped by God's lesser creations, no matter how many there are? Are the beings of the universe (and equating a multitude of magic beings to the universe is ridiculous in itself) coming together to fight, greater than God? Go ahead and try to explain it away, God made a mistake, God wasn't paying attention... but it's just damn easier to realize the illogical nature of it and just turn around and accept it. Spectre is not as powerful as you guys think anymore. If you assume this as fact, then it is very easy to see why Rebirth was presented like that. Its very easy to see why Shadowpact has a chance against somebody like the Spectre. In fact, it makes sense so much, I don't have to resort to disregarding or explaining things away like plot, character dialogue, artistry, storytelling and all that jazz.

The Spectre was fighting thousands upon tens of thousands of magic users in that fight anyone else would have been killed if that was them, and yes i do believe Ganthet woulda been beat by Captain Marvel if it was him. Also Parallax did not remake the universe he was using weaknesses left over from the Crisis and Anti-Monitor to rebuild a new universe manipulating everything. The Spectre has never remade the entire universe???? have u read Zero Hour???? at the end The Spectre made the new DCU pumping more and more power into Damage so he couldn't control it creating the new Big Bang.

I don't really agree with juntai about The Spectre being God, he is a fallen angel transformed by The Almighty to work for him, he was given The Spectre Force by God so he could go around bringing Divine Vengeance upon anyone who is evil. The Spectre can make mistakes and when he does he usually ends up losing because that is not how God wants things... The Spectres power was powered down by The Voice. Even though The Spectre is still the most powerful being in the DCU that we usually see.

Originally posted by kevdude
... The Spectre has never remade the entire universe???? have u read Zero Hour???? at the end The Spectre made the new DCU pumping more and more power into Damage so he couldn't control it creating the new Big Bang. >.> I thought I read the ending. Guess I have to go read it again. Regardless, Zero Hour was a mess and DC stayed as far away as possible from it and its 'supposed' ramifications. You say he's powered down, but if he's still the most powerful being the DC Universe, he ain't really powered down? I'll admit, I know some stuff about Spectre, for instance his humble origins and first appearance and several of his feats. But when I read Rebirth right now and Day of Vengeance, Spectre just ain't the same Spectre anymore. A lot of things changed after Identity Crisis that if held under past continuity and scrutiny don't hold up. One example is Maxwell Lord. The guy turned into a friggin cyborg post-Crisis after having his powers go all loony and the writers basically got together and said,"You think a lot of people are going to remember that?" "No." "Ok forget it, instead of explaining it, lets just ignore it."

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=40070

Stuff changes. Apparently Phoenix is God in MU. You just roll with the BS after a while if the story reads good. I will make a bonfire of the horsepoo that is X-Men: The End, but Rebirth was ok and I'm thoroughly enjoying Day of Vengeance. It wouldn't nearly be as good if Spectre was the strongest being in the universe. He could have just destroyed Parallax outright and if Geoff Johns let him do that, there's no way Rebirth could have worked. No way does Day of Vengeance work either. Captain Marvel should have just been blinked out of existence, or cut off from Shazam's power. Why would Spectre need to resort to fisticuffs? You guys are arguing with the wrong person, I didn't create the inconsistency, I just read it and roll with it. Go stick a burning cross on Geoff John's lawn. I'm just very surprised even given all of this and my careful premises, you guys still don't roll with it, but to each his own!

Captian Marvel was getting murdered when he was fighting Spectre by himself, Spectre didn't even know he(CM) was going to have help (thousands helping him that is). After he was getting help from them he was doing pretty good, but still CM was worn down from controlling powers he was never meant to hold... The Spectre couldn't cut off his power after he was already powered up, if he knew before hand it was going to happen he could have stopped it.

Before the fight with powered up CM, Spectre was already fighting other powerful beings, he was worn down like anyone else would be, hes been fighting constantly in almost every book of Day of Vengeance. There is no inconsistency, just read Rebirth another 10+ times and ull get it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I love that phrase

I agree its always bothered me as well. Why shouldnt the X-men be able to take on cosmic threats. Its not something they do all the time its just good for a bit of variety.
gs, the fact that you like phoenix saddens me,your a brova.....cant u get a more hip character?

Alright, there is no way I'm going to get through to you guys. So this is my last post and I'll give you the chance to get through to me instead. You guys decide what to do with it. One of you folks commented on how Spectre was so powerful he "shut off Ganthet, Shazam and Highfather from interfering with him." Well... why didn't he just shut off Captain Marvel or shut off the connection to the power of Shazam in Day of Vengeance? Oh, right... its because he doesn't feel like it, just like he didn't feel like being rid of Parallax. More excuses. My views and logic need no excuses. This is my main problem with looking at Rebirth and Day of Vengeance "your way." Too many inconsistencies and excuses. Therefore, if you counter these points logically, and they make sense with each other, without lame excuses like above, maybe I'll consider actually believing you guys.
Thus, assuming Spectre is the strongest being in the universe, stronger than Ganthet who wielded the power of the Guardians:

1) Why did Spectre say he couldn't get rid of Parallax?
2) He did it before, so why didn't Spectre forego having to 'cook the magic out' of Cap Marvel and just shut off his connection or for that matter, shut off Shazam?
3) Why did the Spectre almost die just by the combined might of a multitude of magical beings?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) If we assume he's not lying or isn't stupid, why didn't Ganthet understand he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax contradict himself?

So far, I think my explanation to all these problems are logical, right? And they don't contradict each other and they are much easier to swallow... well except for the people who apparently refuse to believe DC, :gasps: changes things! Thusly, I challenge you, if you can explain the above coherently, without contradicting your assumption that Spectre is the most powerful being, I will start to see why you assume your views. Have fun.

all ur questions have been answered already... About him shutting off Shazam/Highfather/Ganthets powers and not shutting off CM powers when he was getting help, The Spectre did not KNOW that was going to happen, if he did know he would have stopped it before it actually happened ( just like how he was stopping the young girl from taking his powers away from him again ). CM was not just powered by Shazam and a few others, he was powered by all of the magical beings powered on Earth trying to stop Spectre, its kinda of hard even for The Spectre to stop the power that CM was getting because 1. he was fighting a powerful being as powerful as him. and 2. CM was being protected probably by magic so The Spectre couldn't just take it all away from him.. He would have to fight with him and wait until 1. Spectre won and out lasted CM who was being powered by thousands of other beings or 2. lose the fight and be destroyed and probably taking CM down with him.

1. The Spectre never said he couldn't destroy Parallax, he only said he was trying to separate Hal's soul from Parallax then cast judgement on it for all the evil it has done in Gods Universe... when it finally happened that Parallax from freed from Hal's soul, The Spectre was told by Hal to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was not his ring and he had interfered enough, God was calling him home, and The Spectre had to leave because it was more important for him to serve God then to serve his own will (destroying Parallax).

2. Answered already on top .

3. Hes been fighting very powerful magical beings almost no-stop, he fought CM when he was connect with tens of thousands of magical beings, CM had magic all around him protecting him and helping him in his effort to fight The Spectre. Did u even notice The Shadowpact was complaining that they felt like they felt like crap and they wasn't even the ones physicaly fighting him???

4. Probably because Parallax was getting afraid he was going to lose (they was actually stopping him from putting fear into them so they could fight him). So he did what any villain would do and that is intimidate his rivals, he grew so big to try to make them fear him so he could win, this did not work they all worked together as a team and beat him.

5. Ganthet isn't stupid and i don't believe he was meaning to lie, he can be wrong though, anyone can be wrong even him. Parallax even said right before he infected Ganthet something about like "if you Ganthet are so powerful and more powerful then The Spectre then how am i here now and u can't get rid of me??"

6. When did Parallax contradict himself??? do u mean when he told The Spectre and Hal they was nothing but hosts to him??? if u mean that then, he was being WAY to confident in himself that he forced them to be mute and they wouldn't be a problem anymore..

The Spectre has talked to The Presence, The Word(The Logos), Archangel Michael and others in Heaven, Ganthet i don't believe has even the power to get to The Silver City so how is he going to be more powerful then The Spectre??? Well i hope you understand where we are coming from about him being more powerful then Ganthet if not then maybe well get to see them both fight one on one and see who wins then, but i still say The Spectre is more powerful.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Alright, there is no way I'm going to get through to you guys. So this is my last post and I'll give you the chance to get through to me instead. You guys decide what to do with it. One of you folks commented on how Spectre was so powerful he "shut off Ganthet, Shazam and Highfather from interfering with him." Well... why didn't he just shut off Captain Marvel or shut off the connection to the power of Shazam in Day of Vengeance? Oh, right... its because he doesn't feel like it, just like he didn't feel like being rid of Parallax. More excuses. My views and logic need no excuses. This is my main problem with looking at Rebirth and Day of Vengeance "your way." Too many inconsistencies and excuses. Therefore, if you counter these points logically, and they make sense with each other, without lame excuses like above, maybe I'll consider actually believing you guys.
Thus, assuming Spectre is the strongest being in the universe, stronger than Ganthet who wielded the power of the Guardians:

1) Why did Spectre say he couldn't get rid of Parallax?
2) He did it before, so why didn't Spectre forego having to 'cook the magic out' of Cap Marvel and just shut off his connection or for that matter, shut off Shazam?
3) Why did the Spectre almost die just by the combined might of a multitude of magical beings?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) If we assume he's not lying or isn't stupid, why didn't Ganthet understand he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax contradict himself?

So far, I think my explanation to all these problems are logical, right? And they don't contradict each other and they are much easier to swallow... well except for the people who apparently refuse to believe DC, :gasps: changes things! Thusly, I challenge you, if you can explain the above coherently, without contradicting your assumption that Spectre is the most powerful being, I will start to see why you assume your views. Have fun. He could have done it to Shazam, he did it to Black Adam in a Day of Vengeance Tie In.. Just snapped his fingers and the power went off and Black Adam almost died smashing into the ground but was saved by Atom Smasher. The Spectre hasn't almost died yet, and if you've been reading all of the tie ins, Spectre is all across the Universe squashing many of it's most powerful AT THE SAME TIME. We also need to factor in that Spectre is NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE EXISTING ON THE MORTAL PLANE WITHOUT A HOST PER THE WORD OF GOD. Where was Ganthet during Zero Hour? Right, erased with everything else. Where was Spectre? The everpresent Spectre even existed in nothingness, making Hal use all his energy up so he could be defeated, the same thing he did to the Anti-Monitor. If Ganthet was more powerful, why couldn't he override Spectre turning off his powers? Why doesnt or hasnt Spectre snapped his fingers and defeated his opposition? Good storytelling.. or maybe "God works in mysterious ways", either way, Ganthet is of the highest teir in DC for sure, but Spectre is only limited by one will-- The Presence, and one and only one thing can defeat him outside of that, the weapon that pierced the holy veil, The Spear of Destiny.

You guys are averting my lines of premises. So now I'll be more clear.

1) Why didn't Spectre seperate Parallax and Hal earlier?
2) Spectre was brawling with Capt. Marvel himself before the Shadowpact came in, why didn't he just shut off the source from Shazam at that time?
3) Why can a gathering of forces from magic users beat the almighty Spectre, the will of God (the God who is the source of everything)?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) Why did Ganthet not know he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax refer to Spectre and Jordan as mere hosts during their trinity conversation, and also repeat Ganthet's utterances that Ganthet > Spectre right before he infected him?

So far, the answers I've gotten have been: to 1) He didn't feel like it because... God works in mysterious ways 2) He could have shut off his power source, he just decided not to because... God works in mysterious ways... 3) They weren't really beating him, he was just bluffing like Parallax,... oh wait... wait... nvm... you didn't say that... umm... creations can beat that which comes from the Creator because... God works in mysterious ways... 4) It was just to make himself look more threatening,... but he really wasn't, he was just bluffing, because... the writer works in mysterious ways... 5) You can't expect Ganthet to know something like that, just because you're part of the Quintessence you can't be expected to know things like that,... maybe he was bluffing too? Or maybe he works in mysterious ways... 6) Parallax was bluffing to himself the first time... and then bluffing to Ganthet... and the image of him ripping Hal and Spectre apart like shedded skins was part of his image faking too... just to himself... cause nobody was around... cuz... he works in mysterious ways...

I thought I was reading science fiction,... not a mystery novel. Wait... I'm just bluffing... you see... I, too, work in mysterious ways...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You guys are averting my lines of premises. So now I'll be more clear.

1) Why didn't Spectre seperate Parallax and Hal earlier?
2) Spectre was brawling with Capt. Marvel himself before the Shadowpact came in, why didn't he just shut off the source from Shazam at that time?
3) Why can a gathering of forces from magic users beat the almighty Spectre, the will of God (the God who is the source of everything)?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) Why did Ganthet not know he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax refer to Spectre and Jordan as mere hosts during their trinity conversation, and also repeat Ganthet's utterances that Ganthet > Spectre right before he infected him?

So far, the answers I've gotten have been: to 1) He didn't feel like it because... God works in mysterious ways 2) He could have shut off his power source, he just decided not to because... God works in mysterious ways... 3) They weren't really beating him, he was just bluffing like Parallax,... oh wait... wait... nvm... you didn't say that... umm... creations can beat that which comes from the Creator because... God works in mysterious ways... 4) It was just to make himself look more threatening,... but he really wasn't, he was just bluffing, because... the writer works in mysterious ways... 5) You can't expect Ganthet to know something like that, just because you're part of the Quintessence you can't be expected to know things like that,... maybe he was bluffing too? Or maybe he works in mysterious ways... 6) Parallax was bluffing to himself the first time... and then bluffing to Ganthet... and the image of him ripping Hal and Spectre apart like shedded skins was part of his image faking too... just to himself... cause nobody was around... cuz... he works in mysterious ways...

I thought I was reading science fiction,... not a mystery novel. Wait... I'm just bluffing... you see... I, too, work in mysterious ways... How does Wolverine slice up half the people does? How does Batman take blows from bloodlusted Superman? It's called making a story.. but fact is, it's been proven that he CAN cut Shazam the wizards power granted to his heralds useless, as he turned off Black Adam's in Day of Vengeance tie ins, and when Azmodel turned all of the quintessence's power off when he was Spectre.

If you can get past the sarcasm in my above post, you see I address each of kevdude's explanations using the logic of the "Spectre > Ganthet" supporters and it doesn't really convince me at all. So now, I'll address some of Juntai's problems with my theories:

1) "Why didn't Ganthet override Spectre by turning off his powers?" Because he was facing Parallax and not Spectre. You may counter, "why couldn't he shut Spectre off inside of Parallax and relieve Parallax of the Spectre's power?" Maybe because Parallax wouldn't let him or Ganthet couldn't penetrate Parallax? You see, in my scheme of things, Ganthet isn't more powerful than HalSpectrellax, especially not with the immense fear he's causing worldwide. (Yes worldwide, Hal mentions that all the heroes and even normal citizens are going nuts with fear at the end of #5 and remember, fear powers Parallax)

2) "Where was Ganthet during Zero Hour? Right, erased with everything else. Where was Spectre? The everpresent Spectre even existed in nothingness, making Hal use all his energy up so he could be defeated." Yes, he was erased, he doesn't have the power of the Guardian's... cuz Hal/Parallax at that time stole them completely, remember Emerald Twilight? You say Spectre exists in nothing. He's more powerful than the power of the Guardians! Well... umm... you said yourself Hal is there too. Why is he there? Hal/Parallax back then wielded the power of the Guardian's. You said Spectre had to make Hal burn himself out... what's he burning out that is such a threat? The power of the Guardians. Well, do you see? The power of the Guardian's dwarf's even the Spectre's. After Hal/Parallax had relinquished the Guardian's power, before the reappearance of the new Guardian's,......... "Who solely wielded the power of the Guardians?"

<Please insert answer here> Check and mate.

Edit: I still can't believe you're clinging to the writer just decided not to have Spectre do all things he could have for story's sake. Fine, believe that. That decision, EVEN IF TRUE doesn't explain why Ganthet said the things he did and why Parallax said the things he did and why Parallax was even presented that way in the story. Why can't you just believe, THAT's the way the writers wanted you to see it?!

onebumbgo i gave u the answers myself , spent 10 mins putting it together o well , read rebirth another 10+ times to understand it all, it takes awhile for everything to sink in, took me awhile too

I read your answers clearly and addressed them. But instead of addressing them in a sarcastic manner, I will address them purely analytically.
Originally posted by kevdude
all ur questions have been answered already... About him shutting off Shazam/Highfather/Ganthets powers and not shutting off CM powers when he was getting help, The Spectre did not KNOW that was going to happen, if he did know he would have stopped it before it actually happened ( just like how he was stopping the young girl from taking his powers away from him again ). CM was not just powered by Shazam and a few others, he was powered by all of the magical beings powered on Earth trying to stop Spectre, its kinda of hard even for The Spectre to stop the power that CM was getting because 1. he was fighting a powerful being as powerful as him. and 2. CM was being protected probably by magic so The Spectre couldn't just take it all away from him.. He would have to fight with him and wait until 1. Spectre won and out lasted CM who was being powered by thousands of other beings or 2. lose the fight and be destroyed and probably taking CM down with him.

1. The Spectre never said he couldn't destroy Parallax, he only said he was trying to separate Hal's soul from Parallax then cast judgement on it for all the evil it has done in Gods Universe... when it finally happened that Parallax from freed from Hal's soul, The Spectre was told by Hal to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was not his ring and he had interfered enough, God was calling him home, and The Spectre had to leave because it was more important for him to serve God then to serve his own will (destroying Parallax).

2. Answered already on top .

3. Hes been fighting very powerful magical beings almost no-stop, he fought CM when he was connect with tens of thousands of magical beings, CM had magic all around him protecting him and helping him in his effort to fight The Spectre. Did u even notice The Shadowpact was complaining that they felt like they felt like crap and they wasn't even the ones physicaly fighting him???

4. Probably because Parallax was getting afraid he was going to lose (they was actually stopping him from putting fear into them so they could fight him). So he did what any villain would do and that is intimidate his rivals, he grew so big to try to make them fear him so he could win, this did not work they all worked together as a team and beat him.

5. Ganthet isn't stupid and i don't believe he was meaning to lie, he can be wrong though, anyone can be wrong even him. Parallax even said right before he infected Ganthet something about like "if you Ganthet are so powerful and more powerful then The Spectre then how am i here now and u can't get rid of me??"

6. When did Parallax contradict himself??? do u mean when he told The Spectre and Hal they was nothing but hosts to him??? if u mean that then, he was being WAY to confident in himself that he forced them to be mute and they wouldn't be a problem anymore.Your answer to #1 does not explain why Spectre didn't just seperate Parallax from Jordan. It explains WHAT happened. It does not give reason as to WHY Spectre did not seperate Parallax from Jordan.

Your answer to #2 completely bypasses my premise. You start answering by saying, "Spectre didn't expect the magicians of the world to start feeding power into Capt. Marvel." That isn't what I asked, I asked why Spectre didn't just shut off his Shazam power stream at the very beginning before Shadowpact came in.

Your answer to #3, while logical,... does not give support to 'Spectre > Ganthet w/ Guardian's power.' I thought you were going to say that Spectre was much too powerful, even for combined might of magicians. But you were smart and didn't fall into this trap. But if anything, it gives support to my assertion that Spectre isn't as powerful as you claim. The guy can be beaten and destroyed. The Guardian's power has always existed. It's never been destroyed, only subverted.

Your answer to #4 is weak. If all that presentation and writer/artist design was all just "intimidation tactics by Ganthellax," where's the proof within the story? Proof like, Parallax having an internal conversation saying, "I'll need to scare them." Or Jordan or Ganthet saying at the end, "He was just bluffing. Good job not being intimidated." There's nothing like this. You have to inject this hidden intention yourself, and that is not very reasonable to do considering the proof against it. The proof against it is; that Ganthet said he was more powerful, Parallax confirmed this, therefore he is more powerful and that is why Ganthellax looks more powerful.

Your answer to #5 subverts my premise again. You answer: a) "Ganthet can be wrong." b) "If Ganthet > Spectre, why didn't Ganthet destroy Parallax before being infected?" First off, with respect to a), there is no direct reference or proof in the story that showed Ganthet to be wrong. He didn't say, "I was wrong." Spectre didn't say, "You were wrong." BUT, Parallax confirmed Ganthet's statement twice! Specthallax said, "The Spectre is nothing but a host to me as you (Hal) are to him (Spectre)." and when he repeated to Ganthet, "You say Spectre is nothing to you? Then Parallax lives. In you!" That last comment more reasonably reads to me, that Parallax is confirming what Ganthet said, and dramatically states he is gonna raise the stakes by taking over a being more powerful than the Spectre!

As per the second part of your response b);... Ganthet couldn't destroy Parallax. That is plain to see. But just by being stronger than Spectre doesn't automatically mean he can destroy Parallax. And so, conversely, just by not being able to destroy Parallax, doesn't mean Ganthet is weaker than Spectre. You forget, NOBODY can destroy Parallax. He is a manifestation of sentient fear throughout the universe. The only thing anybody ever did to Parallax is imprison him. The GL's accomplished this because they had the rings as a conduit to send Parallax back into the Power Battery and fought him by embracing their worst fear and conquering it within themselves.

Your answer to #6 shows some confusion to my question. You clearly ask, "When did Parallax contradict himself? Understand, I DON'T think he contradicted himself. But you, with your premise that 'Parallax < Spectre' do believe that. You said it yourself, Parallax is mocking Ganthet's words. He doesn't really believe that the two of them are stronger than Spectre. But if Parallax understands that, why would he refer to Spectre as a mere host in their trinity conversation? Why did the artist render Parallax's return in #3 as ripping Spectre and Jordan as mere husks? That is the contradiction. But it is only a contradiction because of the way you think, not the way I think. Your last bit at the end of your answer was that "He was being overconfident or trying to bluff them." Come on... that is the same kind of weak answer to #4. The only one Parallax was overconfident about was Hal. Nothing in the story points to Parallax ever underestimating the Spectre or intentionally bluffing because of desperation. In fact, there is evidence in the form of actual conversation against this which I just cited above.

Now, if you still disagree with this, that is just too bad. Like I said, I gave you the oppurtunity to convince me. The weak answers above do not convince me. If you want me to take one last shot at convincing you, I'll do it by contrasting how everything in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance makes much more sense if "Ganthet > Spectre." and literally layer that analysis on top of yours and show which one is stronger. Not once, have you shown any actual words, conversation, admission of mistakes within those pages that are in direct contradiction to my premises. Again, your view is colored going into the books. So was mine! But act like you don't know anything and take it at its face value! Don't inject hidden intentions into Parallax, Ganthet or Spectre if there's no evidence for them. In fact, there's evidence against these 'hidden intentions.'

Edit: Can you at least admit, there aren't any glaring holes or inconsistencies in my responses to you? And can you at least admit, that my version of what happened in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance makes sense and has no glaring holes or inconsistencies?

Originally posted by King KAM
gs, the fact that you like phoenix saddens me,your a brova.....cant u get a more hip character?

So basically i shouldnt like Phoenix because in your eyes she aint hip?

Come on now son how superficial is that?

I like phoenix not because of how powerful she is but because of the hidden depths to the character, all of the symbology and religious parallels the writers have linked to the concept which when explored provide a deeper understanding of the character and its role. Your average hero just doesnt have as many layers to them. Thats why i like phoenix. If you dont like her thats your loss, no need to look down on me. You can stick with your spidermans and wolverines thats your choice.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I like phoenix not because of how powerful she is but because of the hidden depths to the character, all of the symbology and religious parallels the writers have linked to the concept which when explored provide a deeper understanding of the character and its role. Your average hero just doesnt have as many layers to them. Thats why i like phoenix. If you dont like her thats your loss, no need to look down on me. You can stick with your spidermans and wolverines thats your choice. If you agree Phoenix is not more interesting because she is more powerful, then the only thing interesting about Phoenix is that she gave up the man she loves because of her role. In other words, she broke up with him because of her job.

Jean Grey was a lot more layered than that. Such power in the form of a young lady just goes to show that appearances are decieving. It also shows the potency of mind over matter, mental over physical. Her heroism and compassion in the face of bigotry and inhumanity was a lot more interesting than, "My job forced me to leave my man!" She was a voice for reason more than 'force beats everything.' But even then, if it came down to force she could hold her own. Back then, she was pained with Scott and his aloofness and his affairs and her own feelings with Logan.

Now, she's nothing but an all-powerful entity who chose to protect the universe over her love for a man. It sounds poetic, but its all reverse. By her very nature she has to give up Scott. So there's no real decision to make. And the reason that is so much more disinteresting is that apparently, Phoenix force is all Jean really was the whole time. Everything she did as Jean was basically a ruse or false or it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things compared to her role as Phoenix. In that case, her love for Scott didn't really matter either. Therefore, giving up on Scott wasn't much of a sacrifice in the end. Hopefully a smart writer will come along and undo all this crap in the near future. I'll buy a copy for myself and send one to Claremont to show him how sh1t needs to be done.

Edit: I admit, there are two other things that makes Phoenix interesting. The whole Phoenix motif derived from Egyptian myth is kinda cool. And her costume is one of the best designed ever. Still, take the humanity and drama out of the character and she's just a pretty thing to look at.

2nd Edit: Bah. In the end that's my opinion. And it doesn't matter too much as to whether people should be fans or not. So I'll just shut my Claremont-hating piehole. Still... 'Ganthet > Spectre!' I'll take on all challengers to that, cause its a matter of comic book fact vs opinion! Yaaaarrrrrr!!!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I like phoenix not because of how powerful she is but because of the hidden depths to the character, all of the symbology and religious parallels the writers have linked to the concept which when explored provide a deeper understanding of the character and its role. Your average hero just doesnt have as many layers to them.

Really? I actually dislike phoenix because she's the comic equivelant of a 14 year old playing quake with a wall hack and an aim bot shouting "WTF N00B F33R MI SK8LLZ!!"

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you agree Phoenix is not more interesting because she is more powerful, then the only thing interesting about Phoenix is that she gave up the man she loves because of her role. In other words, she broke up with him because of her job.

Jean Grey was a lot more layered than that. Such power in the form of a young lady just goes to show that appearances are decieving. It also shows the potency of mind over matter, mental over physical. Her heroism and compassion in the face of bigotry and inhumanity was a lot more interesting than, "My job forced me to leave my man!" She was a voice for reason more than 'force beats everything.' But even then, if it came down to force she could hold her own. Back then, she was pained with Scott and his aloofness and his affairs and her own feelings with Logan.

Now, she's nothing but an all-powerful entity who chose to protect the universe over her love for a man. It sounds poetic, but its all reverse. By her very nature she has to give up Scott. What sacrifice is there? And the reason that is so much more disinteresting is that apparently, Phoenix force is all Jean really was the whole time. Everything she did as Jean was basically a ruse or false or it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things compared to her role as Phoenix. In that case, her love for Scott didn't really matter either. Therefore, giving up on Scott wasn't much of a sacrifice in the end. Hopefully a smart writer will come along and undo all this crap in the near future. I'll buy a copy for myself and send one to Claremont to show him how sh1t needs to be done.

Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it. However i disagree. Jean has always been this all powerful entity. Thats been the case since the 80's (thanks to the classic xmen backstories), its not some new thing which has suddenly been dropped on us. Fans just took a superficial look on the whole phoenix situation instead of taking a closer look at just what the writers had laid out for us.

Jean never chose to do anything. It was her role in creation, she couldnt avoid it. She had denied it for so long, even rejected it in the past, (one need only look at the Madelyne Pryor situation) but at the end of the day it was who she was. She held on to her Jean Grey role for so long out of love for her friends and family but at the end of the day she was forced by those on high to abandon Jean Grey and to answer a higher calling. It certainly wasnt her choice.

Just think, if Jean has always been Phoenix how many other times (perhaps in previous universes) has she been forced to give up a normal life in favour of her role, in favour of the creation cycle so that big bang after big bang generations upon generations might live whilst she herself was prevented from truly doing so, in a human sense at least. You're right in the big scheme of things her love for Cyclops didnt matter but it certainly meant something to her on a personal level. Its that love which made her save the 616 universe at the end of New Xmen. Even if she couldnt truly live she was sure as hell going to make sure her friends and family did. Even if that meant Cyclops was to be with Emma for the rest of his life. Jean once said that creation needs a human touch. It seems life in normal reality serves as a school for Phoenix. Phoenixes life as Jean Grey was no ruse, it helped shape her into the character she is. At the end of the day arent the loves and sacrifices of all mortals insignificant when you consider the bigger picture.

You were probably reading my posts before I started editing. But yeah, I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion too. But if I ever saw Claremont, I will probably knee him in the balls:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Edit: I admit, there are two other things that makes Phoenix interesting. The whole Phoenix motif derived from Egyptian myth is kinda cool. And her costume is one of the best designed ever. Still, take the humanity and drama out of the character and she's just a pretty thing to look at.

2nd Edit: Bah. In the end that's my opinion. And it doesn't matter too much as to whether people should be fans or not. So I'll just shut my Claremont-hating piehole. Still... 'Ganthet > Spectre!' I'll take on all challengers to that, cause its a matter of comic book fact vs opinion! Yaaaarrrrrr!!!!

I just like how a cosmic entity on phoenixs scale can be touched so much by life as a human. How life as a human is deemed so important for Phoenix to be able to fulfill its creation role. Its sad that she goes to creation to learn, but gets emotionally attached yet she is forced to leave by the higher powers and that perhaps that happens continually throughout her existence. Thats a sad fate despite all the benefits being phoenix brings with it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So basically i shouldnt like Phoenix because in your eyes she aint hip?

Come on now son how superficial is that?

I like phoenix not because of how powerful she is but because of the hidden depths to the character, all of the symbology and religious parallels the writers have linked to the concept which when explored provide a deeper understanding of the character and its role. Your average hero just doesnt have as many layers to them. Thats why i like phoenix. If you dont like her thats your loss, no need to look down on me. You can stick with your spidermans and wolverines thats your choice.
suuuuuuree.....

Originally posted by King KAM
suuuuuuree.....

Thats mature

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats mature
poop

Originally posted by King KAM
poop

You sure that photo in the other forum is of you? lol Your posts just dont seem to fit in with that pic. How old are you?

18, and im positive its me, i just feel like bein an ass right now.

Originally posted by King KAM
18, and im positive its me, i just feel like bein an ass right now.

You're into fashion arent you? Do you wanna go on to do something fashion related?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You're into fashion arent you? Do you wanna go on to do something fashion related?
model!!!!!

Originally posted by King KAM
model!!!!!

cool. You done any of that type of work before?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
cool. You done any of that type of work before?
when i was younger, right now im gettin in better physical shape, then i am moving to LA when im 19. prolly go to school and do my thang out therr.

Originally posted by King KAM
when i was younger, right now im gettin in better physical shape, then i am moving to LA when im 19. prolly go to school and do my thang out therr.

Well good luck to you.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well good luck to you.
always appreciated

I answered #2 on the first paragrapgh. The Spectre was shocked to see how much power/magic Captian Marvel had all around him protecting him..... . why he didn't shut off his power?? my guess he didn't feel the need or threated from Captian Marvel to do it, he just wanted to wear him down and force him to use all his magic up so he wouldn't be a problem later..... In there 2nd fight Captian Marvel was throwing punchs at Spectre and he just stood there telling him he wouldn't allow him to deter him from what he wanted to do there no longer and said "Shazam" turning CM back into Billy, then proceeding to Shazam and killing him. I agree with both of you in some ways but The Spectre is still more powerful then Ganthet. He can be destroyed just like any other being, its just he can take alot more then almost anyone else can. In your ranking Ganthet is almost as powerful as Archangel Michael or The Word which he is not. Do u think Ganthet could ever begin to fight Michael???? he would get killed very easy if he even dared lay a hand on Michael. read rebirth and dov 10 times and LOOK at the pictures they are as big as part of the comic book as the words. If ur still not sure then well have to wait and maybe well see Spectre and Ganthet fight in Infinite Crisis then see who wins.

Originally posted by kevdude
I answered #2 on the first paragrapgh. The Spectre was shocked to see how much power/magic Captian Marvel had all around him protecting him..... . why he didn't shut off his power?? my guess he didn't feel the need or threated from Captian Marvel to do it, he just wanted to wear him down and force him to use all his magic up so he wouldn't be a problem later..... In there 2nd fight Captian Marvel was throwing punchs at Spectre and he just stood there telling him he wouldn't allow him to deter him from what he wanted to do there no longer and said "Shazam" turning CM back into Billy, then proceeding to Shazam and killing him. I agree with both of you in some ways but The Spectre is still more powerful then Ganthet. He can be destroyed just like any other being, its just he can take alot more then almost anyone else can. In your ranking Ganthet is almost as powerful as Archangel Michael or The Word which he is not. Do u think Ganthet could ever begin to fight Michael???? he would get killed very easy if he even dared lay a hand on Michael. read rebirth and dov 10 times and LOOK at the pictures they are as big as part of the comic book as the words. If ur still not sure then well have to wait and maybe well see Spectre and Ganthet fight in Infinite Crisis then see who wins. Look at the pictures?! Look at the pictures?!!? That's what I've been asking you to do the whole time! During Parallax's trinity conversation Spectre and Hal are both writhing in pain! Parallax's return in #3 involves him casting aside Spectre and Hal like they were husks of skin! Gathellax is ginormously HUGE compared to Specthallax! You want ME to look at the pictures? Why don't you look at the damn words! Look at what they say, for goodness sake! Look, I'm not saying your view is completely ridiculous, we're not the only ones debating this on the internet. But if you take a Google search, you'll see that most people agree that Rebirth and Day of Vengeance are pretty clear cut, and most people have a problem with that as an inconsistency with the past, not because they believe Geoff Johns painted Parallax as a mocking, bluffing character and Ganthet as being oblivious to the truth. I'm going to post this argument in the forums and let's have some other people weigh in. Because the only thing you reply in this last post of yours is some explanation that BEFORE Shadowpact came in, Spectre didn't cut off Shazam's power source in the beginning of their first fight, simply because he didn't feel like it. He sure felt like dealing with Madame Xanadu's power by bypassing it and taking her eyes.

About spectre being a part of God.

Jim corrigan once said something to archangel michael about the spectre being an aspect of god, to which michael replied by saying that ALL things are an aspect of god.
Also, I remember reading that the spectre was actually an angel, who was punished by god for not choosing either side during the originaol war in heaven and refusing to fight. He was punished by being forced to become god's agent of vengeance.

Originally posted by eleveninches
About spectre being a part of God.

Jim corrigan once said something to archangel michael about the spectre being an aspect of god, to which michael replied by saying that ALL things are an aspect of god.
Also, I remember reading that the spectre was actually an angel, who was punished by god for not choosing either side during the originaol war in heaven and refusing to fight. He was punished by being forced to become god's agent of vengeance.

Damn you're right 11!!

Well sort of

Spectre as per current continuity is not an aspect of God

He is a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer in his rebellion against the silver city. As a way of repenting this fallen angel acts as gods spirit of vengeance throughout the universe. So while he works for god and was empowered appropriately for his role, he is not literally gods wrath, not an aspect of god in current continuity, as he was previously.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Damn you're right 11!!

Well sort of

Spectre as per current continuity is not an aspect of God

He is a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer in his rebellion against the silver city. As a way of repenting this fallen angel acts as gods spirit of vengeance throughout the universe. So while he works for god and was empowered appropriately for his role, he is not literally gods wrath, not an aspect of god in current continuity, as he was previously. In Hal Jordan's series, you find that The Spectre Force is actually The Logoz, which is a piece of God itself.

Originally posted by Juntai
In Hal Jordan's series, you find that The Spectre Force is actually The Logoz, which is a piece of God itself.

It all depends on how long ago that was revealed. That may very well have been retconned.

Can you really see the Logos struggling against all the enemies which have held their own against Spectre recently?

The Lantern Battery was created as a piece of the guardians power, it had been gone before and Ganthet supported the entire corp across the universe himself with unending power. Hal also wasn't just weilding that power, he was wielding the power of infinite universes, the power of the anti-monitor.


And also in Day of Vengeance, JSA tie-in, Spectre snapped his fingers and shut off Black Adam, then banished Thunderbolt back to the 5th dimension, then killed Atom Smasher, effortlessly. If he can do it to Black Adam, he could have easily done to Captain Marvel too, right? It's the same shit right? Good. Why didn't he? God works in mysterious ways.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It all depends on how long ago that was revealed. That may very well have been retconned.

Can you really see the Logos struggling against all the enemies which have held their own against Spectre recently? He's going against Gods initial decree that the Spectreforce cannot exist without a human host so I'm doubting he's in Gods favor right now, and also, the Spectre is infinite aspects across the entire universe, it's not just one body. And Hal's run of the series is recent and is part of what led to now, so I doubt it's retconned. Also, defeating SHAZAM is major.

Originally posted by Juntai
He's going against Gods initial decree that the Spectreforce cannot exist without a human host so I'm doubting he's in Gods favor right now, and also, the Spectre is infinite aspects across the entire universe, it's not just one body. And Hal's run of the series is recent and is part of what led to now, so I doubt it's retconned. Also, defeating SHAZAM is major.

Are you talking about the wizard or Captain Marvel? Ive only read up to number 5.

Also is the Spectre Force the Logos under a different name or is it powered by the Logos?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Are you talking about the wizard or Captain Marvel? Ive only read up to number 5.

Also is the Spectre Force the Logos under a different name or is it powered by the Logos? It IS the Logoz, but the multiverse' occupants.. for some reason have a need for the wrath to exist, and so it does. Hal Jordan for his time as the Spectre, managed enough pure willpower to change the Logoz from The Wrath to The Redemption, and went around leading souls to heaven and did a lot of soul searching himself.. And, sadly, Spectre downed the wizard apprently, though I have not read this myself, someone spoiled it for me. Also, someone else wrote it in another thread already.

up

Originally posted by Mr _Whirlysplat
up Someone's trolling.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Someone's trolling.

Who?

Originally posted by Mr _Whirlysplat
Who? Oh shoot I know this one. . um . . . it's on the tip of my tongue. . . uh. . .

Originally posted by Juntai
He's going against Gods initial decree that the Spectreforce cannot exist without a human host so I'm doubting he's in Gods favor right now, and also, the Spectre is infinite aspects across the entire universe, it's not just one body. And Hal's run of the series is recent and is part of what led to now, so I doubt it's retconned. Also, defeating SHAZAM is major. SPectre has rebelled against god on several occasions. I remember once when he did it in Corrigan's run as spectre, and michael went and kicked his @$$ for it, but said that it isnt the first time spectre had done that

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Really? I actually dislike phoenix because she's the comic equivelant of a 14 year old playing quake with a wall hack and an aim bot shouting "WTF N00B F33R MI SK8LLZ!!"