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A canonical darkside ending. Sure, in KotOR I and II, and even Star Wars: Jedi Knight, you could pick if you wanted to be light or dark... But the only "official" story, of the Star Wars universe, was the canonical lightside ending.

I want KotOR III to have a game where the darkside ending is the canonical one - how badass would that be?

Personally, I think KotOR I's ending is much, much better when Revan turns back to the darkside - it's just so perfect. Unfortunatley, that would bring about an end to the Old Republic, and thus make all of the other Star Wars movies and EU not possible.

... hm.

It wouldn't bring an end to the Republic. Wtf makes you think that. DS ending DOES seem to be the canonical one in KOTOR 1.

A.) The lightside ending is the canonical one - check StarWars.com

B.) The entire Republic fleet is destroyed, and the Sith have a huge, evergrowing fleet with which to invade and destroy the Republic with?

You know what I would like to see in KotoR 3?

Less graphics, more depth. No rapes to the computer but a good old fashioned rpg classic.

Not for everyone and thier mother to be profficent with The Force.

Less obviousnessness to the dark/lightside, cause even in KotoR2 I was like a friggin brightlight with The Force..

So Lucas did take a stand on KOTOR, eh? I wonder if he told Bioware and Obsidian?

Nop...

Bioware used to claim the Dark Side was the ending they liked more... I don't remember if they really said it was the official ending, I believe they did but i'm not quite sure and I couldn't give you a link even if I was. Still i'm pretty sure Lucas is acting alone on this.

KOTOR's graphics are already loking very clunky. Some better programming might help but it will be roundly whopped if it does not keep up.

I agree too many people are force proficient in it though.

Personally... I do not like KOTOR's morality system. These split 'turn light or dark' plots just do not work for me; clumsy and arbitrary.

I'd prefer a plotline where you can pick a Light Side or Dark Side story from the start, then everything can be calibrated around that. I hate having some petty actions of mine being used to decide my ultimate morality; Light and Dark Side 'points' simply do not do the job.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
KOTOR's graphics are already loking very clunky. Some better programming might help but it will be roundly whopped if it does not keep up.

I agree too many people are force proficient in it though.

Personally... I do not like KOTOR's morality system. These split 'turn light or dark' plots just do not work for me; clumsy and arbitrary.

I'd prefer a plotline where you can pick a Light Side or Dark Side story from the start, then everything can be calibrated around that. I hate having some petty actions of mine being used to decide my ultimate morality; Light and Dark Side 'points' simply do not do the job.

I agree. The graphics need to be kicked up a notch while still being feasible on any video card in existance.

Too many Force people are force sensitive. (I'd rather play as a gun toting mercenary myself. Or even a pilot ot something. Some kind of fringer.)

And the morality system does suck. It's too straight-forward. If they want to really nail you, they need to pile on the moral dillemmas. You should be forced to have to let one of your own die to save a planet or a group of people, or be forced to let the enemy escape and save a child or let the child die and catch the bad guy, etc. And there should be side quests that -don't- wrap up nicely. People who won't sell out to a good guy, or a hall or guild that only accepts those who have visibly proven to be evil, etc.

There should be more consequences for being good or evil in the SW universe than a change of pigment and your profile pic.

A comment about Bioware's other games in the 'Explain KOTOR' thread reminded me...

If they could make Baldur's Gate plot focussed and yet still have multiplayer, they can damn well do it in KOTOR. BG multiplay networked was one of the best experiences of my gaming life, but KOTOR does not support it.

And as an addition to my comment about the morality system above, this also ties in with my plot point. The KOTOR morality system forces a plot in which you start off dead neutral, meaning we've had one total amnesiac and one semi-amnesiac doing a not-as-good re-hash. It's forcing how the plot works and it should not. If KOTOR III starts off with an ignorant middle-road character AGAIN I shall scream.

BG was a wonderful game, especially in multiplayer, though I liked the environs of Icewind Dale II more.

And knowing your luck, they'll make the main character in KOTOR III T3, meaning you'll start off neutral again!

Make the plot better, and bring Revan, and the original Sith bacxk. Have in all out war, and new worlds.

Actually, new worlds are always a good idea. Some nods to the earlier games are always nice, but in KOTOR III it sometimes felt as if they simply couldn't be arsed to make new stuff.

And just another rant at KOTOR morality...

I note you get bonuses for maxing out either way. Why, exactly, do you do this? Why does that bring you any extra power?

You may try and justify it stylisitically. But actually I think it is a disaster stylisitcally- because if you get bonuses for reaching one end or another, you will get people becoming like that not because they think their choices reflect their personality, but because they want the kick-ass extra bonuses.

It sabotages the whole system. Doing good, especially, should bring no reward other than that... well, you did good. Which is what being a Jedi is about.

Go to Coruscant. No, I see a focus on old Sith planets in the Sith Empire. Like Ziost.

Talking of Coruscant!

Nar Shadda is virtually EMPTY! Like, devoid of life. Having Tatooine sparse is one thing, but if they are going to do city planets, you have to find SOME way to make them look alive.

It is all too sterile on these worlds right now. In the films, the worlds are full of life and character. Some very large attempts must be made to at least try and simulate that.

They should have made larger planets, period. I don't care if it was two discs or five... more -worthwhile- areas, please.

And I'm tired of having nothing to do right before the end of the game. I have all these characters and there's no where to take them but towards the finale.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
They should have made larger planets, period. I don't care if it was two discs or five... more -worthwhile- areas, please.

And I'm tired of having nothing to do right before the end of the game. I have all these characters and there's no where to take them but towards the finale.

Some really good things have been said in here and I agree, especially with the planets. I need new planets and make them look bigger more alive, who cares if it takes more resources. Its going to be worth it, make a perfect game. Don't be afraid to push the limits, I wish Lucas Arts would think like that but they won't... If they can they will make hte game as cheap as possible with as much buyers as possible.

And the extremes of the morality system don't even work. I mean, if you max out Dark Side, and gained your 'evil power bonus', what exactly have you done to justify your posotion as 'as evil as can be'?

Have you committed genocide? Have you spent years seducing someone who truly fell in love with you and then murdered her for a laugh? I don't want to get too far into the imagaination of what greatly evil acts you can conceive of, and Star Wars is more grand-scale than personal- except in Anakin's case- but let's face it, we all get the idea that Maul would kill anyone in a blink of an eye, whilst Palpatine murders millions or more with words and cares not.

In KOTOR? Ok, you probably committed a few murders, but let's face it, you probably got most of your Dark Side points by petty theft, making money, and saying to Kreia "Oooh, I'd kill people if they got in my way. Honest."

Wow, that makes you worse than Hitler and Stalin rolled into one, doesn't it?

And "I give away all my stuff to charity" is just as bad a rationale for making someone 'ultimately' good.

But what do the players care? They just want their Dark Side bonus and to pretend that they have somehow achieved the route of all evil.

It doesn't work!

Yeah, again completely agree... But making a game with real morale choices, with real things that would justify your dark or light side poitns would probably have a to high age rating. I mean the example either you are Janus gave about having to choice between killing a kid and capturing criminals or saving kid and letting criminals go is not going to make people say, oh this is a nice family game.

And ratings seem very important in the US.

Well... I think it can still be done and keep it within a Star Wars setting.

But right now... well, other than what I have outlined above, it has two fatal flaws:

1. Your actions set your morality.

That's obviously wrong- your actions are evidence of your morality, not the thing that sets it. Now, to do this truly would be nearly impossible, but it is VERY clear that in KOTOR that you see a 'good' option and you actually start to think "Right, that will get me Light Side points, so I will/will not do it", and then suddenly this whole area of subtle development has become just another stat chase. I guarantee you people were doing evil acts just to get more Dark Side points, on the idea they would grow more powerful, and it had nothing to do with the character they were playing.

It also seems that if you have become Mr. Perfect Paladin, you can still commit very evil acts. I know the game doesn't have a schizophrenia setting, but I never felt like I was a good guy, just a person with lots of Light Side points who might change his mind at any point. If you are good, or evil, you should be restricted as such.


2. It actually fails to reflect player choice

This is the killer. The morality system is meant to be the idea that your choice determines your character. In this respect... it is wasting its time.

I think less than one tenth of KOTOR players actually followed the plot through as letting the game guide you through to setting your ultimate morality. Nearly everyone who played decided form the atart "I want to play a Jedi" or "I want to play a Sith" or, in some cases, "I don't really want to be a Force user at all." You then chose the actions each time that best fitted your choice.

The choice had already ben made, from the point you started play- heck, probably the point you bought the game, or earlier.

Hence my original point- people should be free to make the character they want; Mercenary or Force user, Jedi or Sith, and the plot should be tweaked accordingly- similar things have been done before (ironically, even by Lucasarts, doing three different versions of Fate of Atlantis that depended on your style of play), and it can't be more effort than putting in the waste-of-time morality conversations they have before.

Then we would have no more neutral amnesiacs or pickpockets playing at Sith Lords.

KotOR 1'S ENIVROMENT WERE PERFECT. I think the scenario make a game, take Taris for example, I love looking up in KotOR 1 and feeling that I am in the Galaxy, the ships flying by in the sky, and the mass people in the street, that what you/they need. It sets the mood that your in that Galaxy. Add that with great characters, and an awesome story and you could have one as good as the original on your hands. And honestly, in my opinion, you can never be evil enough.

Taris was ok- certainly the most detailed environment they worked out in any of the games. But it was still fairly sparse- though nowhere near as bad as some other places, and in that respect, KOTOR is as guilty as its sequel. Though Nar Shadda was the worst.

I shudder at the thought of them doing Coruscant.

It's a shame they couldn't implement something I'd do under a tabletop rpg for Star Wars KotoR 3. I agree, the morality system needs to be alot less obvious.. Maybe still obvious, but alot more tempting..

*This is like you thinking to yourself by the way*
Say you're up against a badass boss whom even at high levels, could still kick your ass..

Your survival instincts kick in, The Force inside you gives you the strength to defeat him in one swift strike.. but something inside you, holds it back.. why?

This is the darkside tempting me, I must resist. I can defeat this man on my own merit and with honour. I don't need to take the easy road..

There is no shame in relying on what is inside me. Too many lives are at stake to be considering relative things as "honour", I am a Jedi, my job is to protect..

Give into "the self" and you deal a hefty dose of more damage. Quite possibly enough to eradicate the boss much faster.

Don't give in, and you're in for a bumpy ride. Either way it may be OBVIOUS what the right choice is, but who wants to spend several hours on one boss? And really, doesn't the darkside make a good point?

And like Ushgarak is right about the power bonuses, they just don't make sense. I beleive the oppisite should stand. Those who become "pure" darkside, who took the easy way out of everything, should become tottaly dependant on The Force to do much of anything, they become more or less a sub-human who simply holds on to life but a strand of hair, and lightside people are very full, healthy creatures, who flourish with life and prosperity both through The Force, and thier physiques. But it will hardly be obtainable by your average gamer. Perhaps even challenging sidequests would be needed to become a "Jedi Master" where as anyone willing to just say "screw it" and givein to the darkside can become a "Sith Lord".

You could certainly simulate 'quick and easy' for the Dark Side in the way SJ suggests.

However, I am inclined to agree with Fishy with this point- that if you try and make the system that good, it could very easily become too complicated to reasonably fit into a computer game (as opposed to a tabletop RP where this kind of thing is often part of the point).

So I still think- just choose at creation. Let your choices decide your personality, but not set your morality. Except possibly at certain crucial points, if the game wants that kind of character development; I wouldn't want to overdo the Anakin vibe though.

Thats probably the best possible choice... But the chances of that happening are really small

But the scenario is the key. It sets the games mood.

Not neccessarily so, Nactous. While I do love my lovely and enveloping environments the same as any other, I've played relatively primitive and graphically inferior RPGs that kept me far more entertained on that level.

For instance, in the Sega Genesis game Buck Rogers, the game is primitive enough to be mistaken for Sega Master System. But it features some very interesting devices for setting the mood. Anyone who has crept through the derelect ship in the second chapter knows the effect of a relatively simple backdrop with good dialogue and narration. The only thing that's come close to creeping me out would be the laboratory in RE 4 (shudder)...

So yeah, graphics and environment can help and in this day and age should be worked on, but don't forget the effects of proper storytelling and use.

No, I disagree, I think it puts you into the world even further.

To each his own, I suppose.

I'm not saying it makes a ame, a just mean it enhances the experience.

I totally agree. I'm just saying, you can work wonders with or without graphics, too. Companies tend to forget that nowadays.

my biggest problem with the game has to be the combat system. Its really bad, i find horrible that somone with a bootleg sowrd can stand against even weak jedi padawan. HE HAS A LIGHTSABER, is it me or am I missing something.

ok here are good improvemets in Kotor 2

the jedi robes
(monster improvment)


open doors with your lightsaber
(right idea, more effects though, somethin like what Qui Gon did)\

Darth Nihilus
(His concept was brilliant, a true sith Lord IMO)

and uhh i think thats it.



Bad things for Kotor 2

-Why is Nar Shadaa a ghost town?

-whats up with the he said, but she said?
the exile is this the exile is that, what the hell is he? is he special or average, the yoda-wannabe charcater said he was average, but Kavar said he was special?

-charcaters who dont matter: HK, mira, hanharr, disciple, GOTO,
-To Gloomy?
-Kreia is so damn obvious
-glitches
-game music
-The Exil is a chick magnet


the worlds really bothered me, they werent populated enough, not even Taris was populated enough to rival Coruscant, also not enough places to go. I was done with Korriban in like 30 mins top. Kotor 2 maybe 15 mins. We should see new worlds for sure, but i pray that they change the combat system, and for christ's sake can we get a new damn ship or somthin.

and god we need new charcacters and stuff that dont remind us of the movies:

Atton and Mission- Han Solo
Zaalbar- Chewbacca
mission and Zaalbar's relationship is just like Han and Chewie's, only difference is life debt.

Bastila- Leia
Ebon Hawk- Falcon
Malak- Vader
Vandar- Yoda
Vrook- Mace Windu
(i see horrible imitation of Windu, for some reason, might just be me.)
Admiral Karath- Tarkin
Bao-Dur- Lightside maul
Mira- Mara Jade
Selkath- Gungans except intelligent
Starforge- Death Star

and others.......

I think those connections from the game to the movies are stretches, at best. Just because a guy is black, female, a sith, an Admiral, a big space station, a wookiee... That's incredibly broad and general stuff - I think they did fine.

Dark side ending huh....I think the makers of the happy games are too much of the optimistic types

Originally posted by Tengu Man
my biggest problem with the game has to be the combat system. Its really bad, i find horrible that somone with a bootleg sowrd can stand against even weak jedi padawan. HE HAS A LIGHTSABER, is it me or am I missing something.

ok here are good improvemets in Kotor 2

the jedi robes
(monster improvment)


open doors with your lightsaber
(right idea, more effects though, somethin like what Qui Gon did)\

Darth Nihilus
(His concept was brilliant, a true sith Lord IMO)

and uhh i think thats it.

What, I loved those robes.

What.. I love the robes fro mthe first one.



Bad things for Kotor 2

-Why is Nar Shadaa a ghost town?

-whats up with the he said, but she said?
the exile is this the exile is that, what the hell is he? is he special or average, the yoda-wannabe charcater said he was average, but Kavar said he was special?

-charcaters who dont matter: HK, mira, hanharr, disciple, GOTO,
-To Gloomy?
-Kreia is so damn obvious
-glitches
-game music
-The Exil is a chick magnet


the worlds really bothered me, they werent populated enough, not even Taris was populated enough to rival Coruscant, also not enough places to go. I was done with Korriban in like 30 mins top. Kotor 2 maybe 15 mins. We should see new worlds for sure, but i pray that they change the combat system, and for christ's sake can we get a new damn ship or somthin.

and god we need new charcacters and stuff that dont remind us of the movies:

Atton and Mission- Han Solo
Zaalbar- Chewbacca
mission and Zaalbar's relationship is just like Han and Chewie's, only difference is life debt.

Bastila- Leia
Ebon Hawk- Falcon
Malak- Vader
Vandar- Yoda
Vrook- Mace Windu
(i see horrible imitation of Windu, for some reason, might just be me.)
Admiral Karath- Tarkin
Bao-Dur- Lightside maul
Mira- Mara Jade
Selkath- Gungans except intelligent
Starforge- Death Star

and others.......

What I loved those robes.

in kotor....really? i hated those, maybe they could pass for like battle robes or somthin, if the jedi even have robes like that. then I would approve of them.

Originally posted by Tengu Man
in kotor....really? i hated those, maybe they could pass for like battle robes or somthin, if the jedi even have robes like that. then I would approve of them.

Their like the robes OBI-WAN wares in E 1.