Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Name em' and if so, provide an agruement or case.

1. Mace Windu
2. Yoda
3. Obi-Wan
4. Cin Drallig
5. Luminara Unduli
6. Quinlan Vos
7. Sora Bulq
8. Kit Fisto
9. Ki-Adi-Mundi
10. Anakin

This is what I think of right now, but it's 99% subject to change.

1: Yoda
2: Mace Windu
3: Obi-Wan
4: Anakin
5: Cin Drallig
6: Kit Fisto
7: Luminara Unduli
8: Depa Bililba
9: Quinlan Vos
10: Sora Bulq


If you have any questions just ask.

1. Yoda
2. Mace
3. Kenobi
4. Anakin
5. Cin Drallig
6. Sora Bulq
7. Kit fisto
8. Depa Biliba
9. Serra Keto
10. Jett Zukassa

WTF! Serra Keto and Jett Zukassa!?

Originally posted by Lord Simus
WTF! Serra Keto and Jett Zukassa!?


Jett was a Padawan and he virtually lasted longer against the Clone Troopers than most of the Jedi Masters.


Serra is a good duelist.

Actually, Quinlan Vos will replace Fisto on my list.

Jett lasted long because he had the jump on the and probably because GL wanted to have his son look pimp. As for Serra she wasn't that good. I mean ranking her above Luminara? Not to mention we only know she was one of Cin's padawans.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Jett lasted long because he had the jump on the and probably because GL wanted to have his son look pimp. As for Serra she wasn't that good. I mean ranking her above Luminara? Not to mention we only know she was one of Cin's padawans.

He didn't have the jump. He had the same suprise the other Masters did. Regardless of whether he is Lucas' son or not, he did better.

No watch the movie again he jumps into the picture while the clones are telling Senator Organa to leave. So in other words the clones were not expecting any jedi to attack them. And the other jedi masters did not have a jump on the clones it was the other way around.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
No watch the movie again he jumps into the picture while the clones are telling Senator Organa to leave. So in other words the clones were not expecting any jedi to attack them. And the other jedi masters did not have a jump on the clones it was the other way around.

-Edited- Oops, nevermind. He did jump. And he killed several, and then they tried to shoot him and killed more. And then they tried to position and he killed more. They finally overwhelmed him after he killed a bunch while facing them directly. He still owned them better than some of the masters.

1. Yoda
2. Mace
3. Kenobi
4. Anakin
5. Cin Drallig
6. Depa Biliba
7. Luminara
8. Sora Bulq
9. Plo Koon
10. Qui-gon

Originally posted by Sorgo
Um, no.


He was walking with Bail and the Clone came and he turned around and started defending while Bail ran. There was no jump at all. He is just better than the Masters. Sorry.


Too bad he wasn't walking with Bail.

He took like 5.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Too bad he wasn't walking with Bail.


Too bad he was previously being followed by Clones when he decided to rape the group of Clones that had guns pointed an Organa. And then he went far out and still f*cked them up. He just did better than the Masters.

1. anh luke skywalker
2. c-3po
3. jar jar
4. tpm anakin
5.ewoks(not the clik)
6.jawas( not the janus clik)
7.cantina people
9.the death star guards with big helmets
10.nute gunray
that is my top 10 list of retards

Originally posted by Sorgo
-Edited- Oops, nevermind. He did jump. And he killed several, and then they tried to shoot him and killed more. And then they tried to position and he killed more. They finally overwhelmed him after he killed a bunch while facing them directly. He still owned them better than some of the masters.

Well there goes his fifteen minutes of fame.

Mace Windu
Yoda
Obi-Wan
Anakin
Cin Drallig
Plo Koon
Luminara Unduli
Sassee Tin
Shaak Ti
Ki-Adi Mundi

Where's Depa?

1. Yoda
2. Sidious
3. Anakin
4. Dooku
5. Windu
6. Obi-Wan
7. Darth maul
8. Qui-Gon

the next 2 are not relevant enough simply because we haven't seen anyone else fight (other then the jedi that were owned with windu, kit is the only one of consequence and he got owned too so...)

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
1. Yoda
2. Sidious
3. Anakin
4. Dooku
5. Windu
6. Obi-Wan
7. Darth maul
8. Qui-Gon

the next 2 are not relevant enough simply because we haven't seen anyone else fight (other then the jedi that were owned with windu, kit is the only one of consequence and he got owned too so...)

OMFG...Sidious as the best? Anakin second? Dooku third!?

...Dear God help this wayward fanboy.

1) Yoda
2) Mace Windu
3) Anakin Skywalker
4) Obi-Wan Kenobi
5) Depa Billaba
6) Cin Drallig
7) Luminara Unduli
8) Quinlan Vos
9) Sora Bulq
10) Kit Fisto

Originally posted by Veneficus
OMFG...Sidious as the best? Anakin second? Dooku third!?

...Dear God help this wayward fanboy.

errrr....actually its Yoda first, i dont know, maybe i didnt make it clear enough by putting the number one and then yoda beside it...

anyways, yes, anakin beats dooku, dooku is far better then most everyone else so...i dont see much of a problem here.

as for sidious, he was about equal to Yoda and to say that Yoda was not the best is utterly retarded...

(btw, i dont think mace actually should have/ did beat palpatine just so you know)

Not to be rude or anything, but if you disregard EU entirely, why do you hang out in an EU Forum?

Where is this craze coming from?

*Listens to 1st Infantry's "It's A Craze."

Dooku let Anakin win. He was told by Sidious to let him win. Fact. The only two people said to ever take Windu were Dooku and Yoda, and Dooku took him while Mace was a padawan/knight. Fact.

BTW I asked for top 10 JEDI duelists. Sidious shouldn't be on that list, neither should Dooku.

You're forgetting Maul.

Originally posted by Se7in
Where is this craze coming from?

*Listens to 1st Infantry's "It's A Craze."

Dooku let Anakin win. He was told by Sidious to let him win. Fact. The only two people said to ever take Windu were Dooku and Yoda, and Dooku took him while Mace was a padawan/knight. Fact.

BTW I asked for top 10 JEDI duelists. Sidious shouldn't be on that list, neither should Dooku.

ahh, true...

so then its:

1. Yoda
2. Anakin
3. Windu
4. Obi-Wan
5. Qui-Gon

as for the "dooku let anakin win" i see nothing to prove that in the movie. its hardly a 'fact' sorry...

as for the only people beating windu, sure fine. so dooku beat him. and so did yoda. if its fact as you said then thats that. (oh i know ur gonna say that but he hadent developed form 7 etc. etc.) never the less dooku surley imporoved greatly as well (and form II is made for duelling) and yoda's had 800 years saber expericnace, theres no way windu can top that. its not possible.

and i just think personally and from what i've seen that anakin would beat windu.

as for the "dooku let anakin win" i see nothing to prove that in the movie. its hardly a 'fact' sorry...

This is an EU forum. We look beyond the movies and the ignorance of traditional fans like you.

as for the only people beating windu, sure fine. so dooku beat him. and so did yoda. if its fact as you said then thats that. (oh i know ur gonna say that but he hadent developed form 7 etc. etc.) never the less dooku surley imporoved greatly as well (and form II is made for duelling) and yoda's had 800 years saber expericnace, theres no way windu can top that. its not possible.

Dooku was already ~45 years old. Mace was like 15. It doesn't matter what the form was, Dooku was far more expeinced at that time. Mace still hadn't learned much, it was the more basic Jedi powers, while Dooku had been a Master for ~20 years.

and i just think personally and from what i've seen that anakin would beat windu.

If you can't provide reasonable proof for this, then say what you think and move on until you find reasonable proof.

Why do you rate Anakin below Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan bested him?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
ahh, true...

so then its:

1. Yoda
2. Anakin
3. Windu
4. Obi-Wan
5. Qui-Gon

as for the "dooku let anakin win" i see nothing to prove that in the movie. its hardly a 'fact' sorry...

as for the only people beating windu, sure fine. so dooku beat him. and so did yoda. if its fact as you said then thats that. (oh i know ur gonna say that but he hadent developed form 7 etc. etc.) never the less dooku surley imporoved greatly as well (and form II is made for duelling) and yoda's had 800 years saber expericnace, theres no way windu can top that. its not possible.

and i just think personally and from what i've seen that anakin would beat windu.

Let's go by the movies. Okay, that means Obi should now be 2, and by your logic, since Anakin is better than Mace, Mace becomes 4th.

Anakin is the best guys. He SURVIVED it all. The force was strong enough with him that he didn't need to be the most experienced swordsman, (although naturally talented he was at it) he just predicted their moves through the force and fought better.

Obi-Wan beat Anakin because he knew him well. He was also powerful enough to predict someone's moves, plus being defensive, plus knowing his apprentice so well. Anakin was foolish enough to run into Obi-Wan's blade in the end.

And yes, I do belive that Anakin could beat Mace as well. Anakin is superior in the force, and with the right determination, he could very well take him.

Don't get me started with Yoda...I'm done for now.

1.) Yoda
2.) Mace Windu
3.) Depa Billaba (she's said to be nearly as good as Mace and the other Vaapad master)
4.) Obi-Wan Kenobi
5.) Anakin Skywalker
6.) Cin Drallig

I don't have anyone beyond it. Probably Quinlan Vos, Luminara, Zett Jukassa, Serra Keto and Qui-Gon Jinn (look for your favourites).

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
ahh, true...

so then its:

1. Yoda
2. Anakin
3. Windu
4. Obi-Wan
5. Qui-Gon

as for the "dooku let anakin win" i see nothing to prove that in the movie. its hardly a 'fact' sorry...

as for the only people beating windu, sure fine. so dooku beat him. and so did yoda. if its fact as you said then thats that. (oh i know ur gonna say that but he hadent developed form 7 etc. etc.) never the less dooku surley imporoved greatly as well (and form II is made for duelling) and yoda's had 800 years saber expericnace, theres no way windu can top that. its not possible.

and i just think personally and from what i've seen that anakin would beat windu.



OH MY F*CKING GOD!



ACK!

*Has a Seizure*

1 Anakin
2 Obi Wan
3 Mace Windy
4 Palpatine
5 Yoda (he's stupid..)
6 Depa Billaba
7 Cin Drallig
8 Qui-Gin Jinn
9 Kit Fisto
10 Darth Maul will kill you!

1. Yoda
2. Mace
3. Obi-Wan
4. Anakin
5. Plo Koon
6. Cin Drallig
7. Luminara
8. Kit Fisto
9. Saesee Tiin
10. Agen Kolar
I dont care what u say that's what i think
If u want me to go on...
11. Ki-Adi-Mundi
12. Shaak Ti
13. Qui-Gon (at the time he dueled Maul)
14. Yarael Poof
15. Bastila Shan
16. Aayla Secura (even if her clones killed her with a snap of their fingers, she still beat Aurra Sing)
Oh and i forgot to put Sora Bulq and Quinlan Vos somewhere in my lists

Actually the orders might be a bit mixed up so maybe u could rearrange....

1. Yoda
2. Emperor
3. Vader
4. Duku (Schools Obi won twice)
5. Ben Kenobi
6. Luke James Skywalker
7. Mace
8. Darth Maul
9. Qui-gon
10. Kit Fisto

Anybody who disagrees obviously knows nothing about star wars. I have viewed each movie over 59 times. Don't even think you know more than me. I actually went to school with george lucas and gave him the idea of the lightsaber...except I called it a lazer knife.

Yeah, you made up the lightsaber idea and everyone who dissagrees with you knows nothing of SW. Is your name perhaps Mickey Suttle?

yoda
mace
obi
anakin
cin
depa
luminara
quinltan
sora
kit

Yoda
Mace
Obi-wan
Anakin
Cin
Depa
Luminara
Quin-lan

that is what i said

heres what i think

yoda
dooku
mace
depa
shaak-ti
cin
obi-wan
anikin
luminara
Vos

No order

1.shaak ti
2.quinlan vos
3.obi-wan
4Dooku
5Anakin
6.Qui Gon
7.Aayla Secura
8.sora Bulq
9.yoda
10.mace windu

if you're going to revive a thread that's been dead for nearly 3 years, then you should probably at least adhere to the rules and put them in order.

1: Mace Windu
2: Yoda
3: Obi-Wan
4: Anakin
5: Kit Fisto
6: Cin Drallig
7: Luminara Unduli
8: Depa Bililba
9: Quinlan Vos
10: Sora Bulq

Cant beat SLJ :P

the dumb emperor would have died if anakin wouldnt have steeped in mace could have taken them both it is just that his concentrain was broken so the emperor had a chance but windu beats them

Originally posted by master monkey
the dumb emperor would have died if anakin wouldnt have steeped in mace could have taken them both it is just that his concentrain was broken so the emperor had a chance but windu beats them You've got a lot to learn methinks.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
if you're going to revive a thread that's been dead for nearly 3 years, then you should probably at least adhere to the rules and put them in order.


Alright than

1.Windu
2.Yoda
3.Kenobi
4.Skywalker
5.Dooku
6.Jinn
7.Drallig
8.Vos
9.Bulq
10.Ti

Mace is shit.

That whole list is shit.

Why has Mace got such high votes? His fight was sloooooooooooooooooow.

Yoda
Maul
Qui-Gon
Sidious
Anakin
Grevious
Obi-Wan
Dooku
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi-Mundi

Mace Windu
Obi-wan Kenobi
Yoda
Sora Bulq
Sidious
Dooku
Anakin
Quilan Vos
Depa Billaba
Qui-Gon

As far as the top 10 duelists go (in order):

1. Yoda/Sidious
2. Mace Windu
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Count Dooku
6. Obi-Wan Kenobi
7. Darth Maul
8. General Grievous

I'm undecided about the rest.

I am gonna add sith in their as well because everyone else is

1.Yoda
2.Sidious
3.Mace
4.Anakin
5.Dooku
6.Obi-Wan
7.General Grievous
8.Maul
9.Asaj Ventress
10.Kit Fisto

Right, I forgot about Asajj Ventress. She'll probably come one rank before Maul.

Uh, Maul almost killed Sidious. Ventress only almost killed OB1. I'd say Maul is ahead of her.

I don't think the 'he almost killed Sidious' argument is very valid, but fine. In Obsession (6 months before the events of ROTS, I believe), Ventress gave Anakin a very hard time. I'd like to see how Maul would fare against Anakin by then.

Why not valid? Just curious.

I don't know, I think Maul would be a hand full for Anakin because 1, he's just as aggressive, if not more. Now I know that aggressiveness doesn't equal skill, but I don't think that anyone would doubt the skill of "one of the deadliest Sith apprentices ever."

Actually, I think it is quite close. Both are, in my book, up there in the top 10, and only being separated by a mere rank. Another point on favour of Maul: he was worthy of being apprenticed by Sidious, while Ventress was a mere tool. But, he already had Dooku, of course. Would Sidious have still chosen Maul if in TPM Ventress was as strong as she was in Obsession? That is something we will never know.

I'd say they are almost equally matched, maybe you're right, and Maul is just slightly above her.

I don't know if she was as... "ruthless" as Maul, so to speak. I know she was a dark Jedi and all that, but from what I've read and heard about Maul, he'd kill anyone at the drop of a hat and was just filled with tenacity. But while they might be close, I'd still put Maul above her.

I would say the top 3 are yoda, obi wan and mace windu, not sure about the others.

Yea, there's this guy, maybe you've heard of him, his name is Anakin. There's this other guy named Dooku, too. He's pretty good.

Darth Subjekt, unless you didn't notice, this is a top ten JEDI duelists. So that rules "This other guy named dooku", out.
Any ways, I have finished my list.

1. Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Obi-Wan Kenobi
4. Anakin Skywalker
5. Qui-Gon Jinn
6. Cin Drallig
7. Tholme
8. Kit Fisto
9. Plo Koon
10. Saesee Tinn or Ki-Adi Mundi

Yoda
Mace Windu
Count Dooku
Anakin Skywalker
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Depa Billaba
Plo Koon
Qui-Gon Jinn
Sora Bulq
Kit Fisto

Actually, now that I think about it, in ep. 1 dooku was a jedi. So here's my new list:
1. Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Count Dooku
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Anakin Skywalker
6. Qui-Gon Jinn
7. Depa Billaba
8. Sora Bulq
9. Cin Drallig
10. Kit Fisto

Skywalker, Anakin < Dooku < Obi-Wan. Anakin is canonically stated to be superior to Obi-Wan, and I- along with many others- have explained time and time again why Anakin's defeat of Dooku was legit.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Actually, now that I think about it, in ep. 1 dooku was a jedi. So here's my new list:
1. Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Count Dooku
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Anakin Skywalker
6. Qui-Gon Jinn
7. Depa Billaba
8. Sora Bulq
9. Cin Drallig
10. Kit Fisto thank you for realizing that. I was hoping i wouldn't have to point that out.

Just because he defeated dooku while kenobi didn't doesn't mean he is better. Dooku was specifically told to deal with kenobi first. They are equals in skill, but due to experience and smarts, kenobi will win about 6/10 times .

Multiple sources stated that Anakin is better. And provide a quote that Dooku was told to specifically deal with Kenobi first.

That doesn't matter. The novel makes it clear that even after Dooku rejuvenated himself with the force, Anakin- when deciding to win- utterly decimated Dooku without fully using his power.

Oh, and Anakin > Obi-Wan in skill. He is capable of defeating or holding his own against multiple enemies stronger than what Obi-Wan is capable of dealing. Just because Obi-Wan can- and will- defeat Anakin a second time doesn't mean that he is necessarily better. Anakin is, in general, a superior swordsman and combatant.

If you read Rots, you would know that Palpatine told dooku on page 53

"Kenobi must die. Today. At your hand. His death might be the final lock that will seal skywalker to us forever."
And Dooku thought that once he killed Obi-Wan, Skywalker would turn. but that didn't happen.

Nah. Dooku, mid-combat (while fighting the duo, mind you), reasoned that, being in his situation (losing), he decided to go all-out and try to kill them. And when Anakin was owning him, Dooku realized that Sidious betrayed him and therefore logically fought for his life. He tried his best to kill Anakin, and failed. Anakin > Dooku.

Kenobi won the mustafar fight. He won. Lots of people make silly excuses as to why, but they are wrong. Sure, anakin can defeat opponents that Obi-Wan can't. Like dooku. And obi wan can defeat opponents anakin can't. like grievous. but if they fight, obi wan will win the majority of the time.

According to the novelization, Count Dooku was aware that the situation had been engineered as a test. He knew that Palpatine was testing Skywalker's combat skills and his aptitude for the dark side, and he also knew that he was being tested to see if he was skilled enough to eventually take mastery for himself. What the Count wasn't aware of was that the "test" was actually a snare that would end in Dooku's death -- he actually believed, even if he failed to subdue Skywalker, Palpatine would save him.

^ "Treachery is the way of the sith."

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
^ "Treachery is the way of the sith."

Yeah, I really don't get Dooku's mentality there. He ran that particular sentence through his mind like a veritable mantra, and was surprised when he was betrayed.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yeah, I really don't get Dooku's mentality there. He ran that particular sentence through his mind like a veritable mantra, and was surprised when he was betrayed.

Alzheimer's

Yeah, I admitted that Anakin can beat dooku while obi wan probably can't. But when anakin and obi 1 fight, obi will win the majority of the time.

That doesn't make Obi-Wan a superior fighter. He isn't (as confirmed by Nick Gillard).

Anakin may be the superior fighter, but obi 1 is wiser, therefore will exploit a weakness in anakin and win.

I know. But Anakin, being the superior fighter, deserves to be higher up on the list than Obi-Wan. I'm certain Obi-Wan will take a rematch.

Whatever. If i could I would put them as equals, but you can't.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Anakin may be the superior fighter, but obi 1 is wiser, therefore will exploit a weakness in anakin and win.

Obi-Wan held his own against Anakin. I would say they are close, but Anakin more of an edge in skill, but Obi-Wan has the wisdom so that is a major advantage.

THANKYOU for understanding my point of view!

I said that Obi-Wan can defeat Anakin in combat; still, Anakin is a more skillful fighter and duelist, and he therefore deserves a higher place on the list than Obi-Wan.

OK, just getting everything straight.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I said that Obi-Wan can defeat Anakin in combat; still, Anakin is a more skillful fighter and duelist, and he therefore deserves a higher place on the list than Obi-Wan. Not every time, and certainly not 6 out of 10 times.

There were extenuating circumstances surrounding that fight. If you don't believe so, then you're an idiot.

what are you talking about? I think you meant to quote me. And yes there were circumstances, going against both opponents. Obi 1 deserved to win that fight. And he did.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Not every time, and certainly not 6 out of 10 times.

There were extenuating circumstances surrounding that fight. If you don't believe so, then you're an idiot.

No need to use 'idiot'. I know there were many, many circumstances in that fight, but that doesn't change the fact that Obi-Wan- with his complete knowledge of Anakin's bladework (which gave him an immense advantage), and his understanding of Anakin's psyche, he can logically keep with Anakin in the necessary time for him to use a tactical advantage, or piss Anakin off enough for him to cause him to make another mistake and take advantage of it. No, I suppose not every time, but Obi-Wan does have several undeniable advantages over Anakin.

Originally posted by skywalker833
THANKYOU for understanding my point of view!

No problem. Verses things are stupid thought guys.

I mean, Obi-Wan has the wisdom and skills, Anakin may have more skills but lacks wisdom.

Thus Obi-Wan has an advantage over Anakin. If they maybe fought on perfectly flat land with perfect lighting then Anakin would seem to have an edge, but no location is really perfect, I am sure Obi-Wan would use other factors to his advantage. I mean...Obi-Wan did find a way to take out Grevious.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No need to use 'idiot'. I know there were many, many circumstances in that fight, but that doesn't change the fact that Obi-Wan- with his complete knowledge of Anakin's bladework (which gave him an immense advantage), and his understanding of Anakin's psyche, he can logically keep with Anakin in the necessary time for him to use a tactical advantage, or piss Anakin off enough for him to cause him to make another mistake and take advantage of it. No, I suppose not every time, but Obi-Wan does have several undeniable advantages over Anakin. The idiot part wasn't referring to you. Sorry.

And for the last part, yea OB1 does have certain adavantages, but Anakin does to. He's physically stronger, has a much stronger connection with the force, is a more skilled with a saber, and knows OB1 just as well as OB1 knows him. The onlyreason he lost was because he wasn't thinking. You put him in that situation 9 more times under different circumstances, and you'l have a completely different outcome. He wouldn't think he's invinceible and make that jump. If he hadn't jumped, he wouldn't have lost. And ultimately he won anyways cause he eventually killed OB1. And before you say that OB1 let himself be killed, it was only because he knew he couldn't win and did it so Luke and co could escape, a la ep 4 script.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
The idiot part wasn't referring to you. Sorry.

And for the last part, yea OB1 does have certain adavantages, but Anakin does to. He's physically stronger, has a much stronger connection with the force, is a more skilled with a saber, and knows OB1 just as well as OB1 knows him. The onlyreason he lost was because he wasn't thinking. You put him in that situation 9 more times under different circumstances, and you'l have a completely different outcome. He wouldn't think he's invinceible and make that jump. If he hadn't jumped, he wouldn't have lost. And ultimately he won anyways cause he eventually killed OB1. And before you say that OB1 let himself be killed, it was only because he knew he couldn't win and did it so Luke and co could escape, a la ep 4 script.

Obi-Wan also has a lot of experience. We can't say how many times they each would have beaten each other out of ten fights because we have only seen them fight twice, and both of the outcomes were sort of based on a technicality.

That's kind of the point of debating. We take what we know about each and make a decision on who would win, or who would win the majority of the time. And why would you try to single my post out when that's what everyone on here is doing? Whatever, its good. To each their own.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That's kind of the point of debating. We take what we know about each and make a decision on who would win, or who would win the majority of the time. And why would you try to single my post out when that's what everyone on here is doing? Whatever, its good. To each their own.

Because I wanted to reply to your post? I hope that is okay.

Debates like these never end. It is like Mac VS PC, to each his own.

The only reason they never end is because people, even when the know they're wrong, will fail to concede the argument.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
The only reason they never end is because people, even when the know they're wrong, will fail to concede the argument.

Are you ever wrong?

I believe a lot of debates go on forever is becuase people have preferences.

Yes, and if I'm wrong, I' admit it. I'm somewhat alone on this site when it comes to that.

Well, most of these debates aren't preferential, and that doesn't stop people from continuing to carry on.

Ok, we are a little off topic here.
Anakin may have more skill than kenobi, but Kenobi has his smarts which enable him to beat anakin, and that counts in duels, therefore, he should be higher on the list.

No again. He's not smarter per se, he used the situation (that ONE time) to his advantage. Advent just explained that to you in the other thread. Anakin was far from being "himself" in that fight and wasn't thinking clearly.

1) Yoda
2) Mace
3) Obi Wan Kenobi
4)Anakin
5)Kit Fisto
6)Qui Gon Jinn
7)Ki Adi Mundi
8)Cin Drallig (WTF HE WAS OWNED BY VADER USEING ONE HAND WHILE GRIPPING BENE WITH THE OTHER o.o)

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
1) Yoda
2) Mace
3) Obi Wan Kenobi
4)Anakin
5)Kit Fisto
6)Qui Gon Jinn
7)Ki Adi Mundi
8)Cin Drallig (WTF HE WAS OWNED BY VADER USEING ONE HAND WHILE GRIPPING BENE WITH THE OTHER o.o) confused1

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

o.o i thought it was a good assessment...maby Ki Adi would have been above Qui Gon but Qui Gon got my vote for the awesome dueling and just being plain cool and since being OLD Human Jedi Master being able to defend himself quite well aginst a MUCH YOUNGER ZABRAK Sith Apprentace/Lord there has been speculation that by the time of Episode I that Darth Maul had gained the Status of a Sith Lord rather then just an apprentace,,,,

um.. ya. hes like... awesome in da fact that he managed to give a sith 2 minutes of duel time before, um... dying.

What is this madness?

If this thread is based on combat effectiveness, including all PT Jedi at their peak (which would include Dooku, Sora Bulq, and Depa):

1) Yoda
2) Mace Windu
3) Anakin Skywalker
4) Dooku
5) Sora Bulq
6) Depa Billaba
7) Obi-Wan Kenobi
8) Anoon Bondara
9) Agen Kolar
10) Qui-Gon Jinn

In sheer bladework and technical skill:

1) Anoon Bondara
2) Dooku
3) Sora Bulq
4) Depa Billaba
5) Mace Windu
6) Agen Kolar
7) Cin Drallig
8) Yoda
9) Obi-Wan Kenobi
10) -Open-

I don't know that Yoda mastered any forms other than Ataru and Shii-Cho, and much of Anakin's effectiveness comes from his essentially unlimited power.

Sora and Depa above Obi-Wan?

And as for Anoon > Dooku, I think it's plausible that Dooku- during the over ten years time he had to refine his complete mastery of Makashi after Anoon's death- surpassed Anoon in terms of pure technical skill.

I believe Yoda was stated in the issue when all the forms were introduced to be a master of every form, but preferring Ataru. Not sure, though.

Otherwise, I completely agree with your list.

Sora is a master of every single lightsaber form, and is considered one of the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi (Databank). Depa's swordplay had surpassed Mace's own in TPM times (Shatterpoint), and although his numerous advantages over her physically and in the Force would allow him to handily kick her ass, it's pretty much explicitly stated by Mace himself that she's a superior duelist.

To the matter of Dooku; I believe he resigned almost immediately after the events of TPM, at which point he's no longer a Jedi. Besides, I don't know how much he could've improved his technical ability after seventy-something years in the Temple.

Originally posted by Faunus
Sora is a master of every single lightsaber form, and is considered one of the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi (Databank). Depa's swordplay had surpassed Mace's own in TPM times (Shatterpoint), and although his numerous advantages over her physically and in the Force would allow him to handily kick her ass, it's pretty much explicitly stated by Mace himself that she's a superior duelist.

To the matter of Dooku; I believe he resigned almost immediately after the events of TPM, at which point he's no longer a Jedi. Besides, I don't know how much he could've improved his technical ability after seventy-something years in the Temple.

That's all technical skill you got there. Obi-Wan was able to block up to twenty strikes per second, surprise Dooku- yes, Count Dooku- with his impressive defense, and hold his own against Anakin Skywalker. Now, I know that this was due to other advantages Obi-Wan had and Anakin is his superior in swordplay, but Obi-Wan even being able to keep up with Anakin (and stalemate him in a force contest) is highly impressive.

By the way, Mace also implied Kenobi is a greater Jedi than himself; or, well, he questioned his 'dominance' over Obi-Wan in the saber combat category.

Aside from that, both Depa and Sora are users of Vaapad, ergo they will not be able to utilizie it to its full advantage against Obi-Wan; and like you said, you either need to have truly incredible technical advantages (Dooku), or need to be considerably faster and stronger (Yoda) in order to beat Obi-Wan in a saber duel. Neither Depa nor Sora have displayed- as far as I know- sufficient skill in either one of these ones. If I'm wrong, though, please enlighten me.

And yeah. I guess Dooku could have increased somewhat in technical skill, but given the fact that Bondara was 'second to none' in the Jedi Order, well... it's really hard to gauge the true difference between him and Dooku. But I'm certain Dooku would beat him in a saber fight, anyway.

You have some points there. And yeah, Dooku would utterly tool Bondara in a duel. If Maul outclassed him, the Count would laugh in his face.

Originally posted by Faunus
You have some points there. And yeah, Dooku would utterly tool Bondara in a duel. If Maul outclassed him, the Count would laugh in his face.

I could actually imagine the Count laughing in Anoon Bondara's face. No, literally. That would be phunny.

Why would Dooku be so high up in technical skill? Has his mastery of the lightsaber even been as properly defined as some of the others? I'd personally say that any Juyo master should be placed above him, given they've all been stated to be outright high end masters of multiple forms. What has Dooku got going for him that puts him even close?

1. Anoon Bondara - Most technically skilled Jedi of the PT era as of his time.

2. Sora Bulq - Helped Mace Windu create Vaapad (requiring mastery of Juyo, which by extension, required high end mastery of multiple forms), perfecting the various classical and experimental combat techniques, and declared one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Order had ever known.

3. Depa Billaba - By Mace Windu's own admission, his technical superior in Vaapad.

4. Mace Windu - Created Vaapad, outright stated to be one of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced.

5. Agen Kolar - Outright stated to be one of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced.

6. Kit Fisto - Renowned among his Order for as much.

7. Saesee Tiin - See above.

8. Qui-Gon Jinn - "A master swordsman by anyone's standards," described as being the greatest swordsman he had ever trained in over 400 years by his lightsaber instructor, and apparently (along with Mace Windu) made Anoon Bondara doubt his status as the greatest technical swordsman amongst the Jedi of his time.

9. Obi-Wan - Had Mace Windu question his superiority over the Soresu Master, was capable of blocking up to sixteen strikes from Grievous (which were described as all coming from different angles and speed and intensity) through essentially his technical ability alone (if you read the passage, he's described as knowing exactly how to shift his wight and stance and angle his lightsaber so that Grievous' attacks either headed directly to his lightsaber or right past him).

10. Anakin Skywalker - Combined his mastery of Djem So with elements of "all known forms of combat."

Evidently, Dooku does know elements of all the forms, due to him personally training Grievous in lightsaber combat- and Grievous actually knew every single conventional lightsaber form.

In addition, Dooku's mastery of his form of choice- Makashi- has been refined during his extensive lifetime. He was called a 'legendary duelist' multiple times, Qui-Gon Jinn held him in extremely high renown, as evidenced by his quote calling Dooku a 'fencer', saying that 'leverage, position, advantage' are all as 'natural to him as breathing'.

Yeah. Dooku is, as of RotS, the most technically skilled swordsman in the galaxy (Anoon, his only possible rival, is dead). That's not to say he is the most effective overall swordsman; Anakin, Sidious, Yoda, and likely Mace can all defeat him in a saber duel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Evidently, Dooku does know elements of all the forms, due to him personally training Grievous in lightsaber combat- and Grievous actually knew every single conventional lightsaber form.

Where is it explicitly stated that he actually trained Grievous in all the forms? I know he did train him to some extent, but I was always under the impression that he had learnt all of the forms via the computers hooked to his brain that were capable of analysing and copying the moves of his opponents.

Aside from that, there's this from the RotS novelisation:

"Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him.""

This would indicate that Makashi would be the sole form he'd be capable of teaching Grievous, otherwise it would make no sense for one of his peers in the Order to conclude as much.



I'm sure many Jedi would have trained extensively with their chosen form of combat. Why would this set Dooku apart?



Which is a stamp that could be applied to many of the above (Mace Windu and Agen Kolar being outright stated to be some of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced; Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin being acknowledged as such by their peers within the Order; Depa Billaba who by Mace's own admission was his technical superior; Sora Bulq who was declared a legendary lightsaber instructor; Qui-Gon Jinn standing out amongst 400 years worth of Jedi as the greatest of them all according to the guy who trained them all).

Not to mention, you say multiple times, but you said the same thing about Mace Windu being one of the deadliest Jedi ever, only to take it back soon afterwards. Could you source where you're getting your info from?



That's great for Dooku, I still don't see how this establishes the position that you appear to give him. Amongst some of the greatest swordsmen ever, that fencing came naturally to him is a pretty worthless point.



...Yeah, you didn't even come close to proving any of that. As Mace Windu's words would indicate, he was only truly proficient with a single lightsaber form: Makashi, and as for his supposed legendary status, the same can be said for almost everyone on my list. That Qui-Gon regarded him as a "fencer" is as worthless a point as you could give, and training in his chosen form of combat extensively throughout his lifetime can be said for almost any dedicated one form Master of the Lightsaber there is. I fail to see how Dooku truly stands out.

Just realised I wasn't properly able to convey my point with the RotS excerpt.

This would indicate that Makashi would be the sole form he'd be capable of teaching Grievous, otherwise it would make no sense for one of his peers in the Order to conclude as much.

What I meant to say was that it would make little sense for Mace Windu to conclude that Grievous would undoubtedly have learnt Makashi from Dooku, and not to go out of his way to mention any other forms if Dooku truly was proficient with more than just Makashi.

Originally posted by Taven
Where is it explicitly stated that he actually trained Grievous in all the forms? I know he did train him to some extent, but I was always under the impression that he had learnt all of the forms via the computers hooked to his brain that were capable of analysing and copying the moves of his opponents.

I'm pretty sure the quote is somewhere on LoE- however, I can't find my damned copy at the moment, so, until I find more evidence, I'll concede that point.

Originally posted by Taven
I'm sure many Jedi would have trained extensively with their chosen form of combat. Why would this set Dooku apart?

Let's go by your scenario, alright? That Dooku is only truly proficient with Makashi. Now, while that seems fairly ludicrious, let's say it's true.

1. Dooku is 80 years old, older than basically any other human force-user in the saga. During his early age, he was driven towards Makashi an unconventional form at the time- why? So he could duel people better. He's a competitive guy.

2. He was called the 'Temple's greatest student', regarded as the ultimate loss and failure when he left.

3. Dooku was naturally more attracted to lightsaber combat than actual force usage.

4. Dooku was- despite his incredible prowess with the force- known to rely on the force only minimally (he is rarely seen using the same speeds of heavy force users, like Yoda, for example), yet he was still capable of handling a barrage from Grievous' four sabers.

5. Considering that Dooku, according to you, only knew one form masterfully, he would logically master it to its apex during his extensive lifetime, wouldn't you say? 75 years or so of training in a singular form, and the form best suited for dueling.

Originally posted by Taven
Which is a stamp that could be applied to many of the above (Mace Windu and Agen Kolar being outright stated to be some of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced; Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin being acknowledged as such by their peers within the Order; Depa Billaba who by Mace's own admission was his technical superior; Sora Bulq who was declared a legendary lightsaber instructor; Qui-Gon Jinn standing out amongst 400 years worth of Jedi as the greatest of them all according to the guy who trained them all).

Who was that person who instructed Qui-Gon? Prove that he encountered, and in any shape or form actually trained Dooku.

Dooku was called one of the greatest Jedi in history, and an even greater Sith Lord, mind you.


Originally posted by Taven
Not to mention, you say multiple times, but you said the same thing about Mace Windu being one of the deadliest Jedi ever, only to take it back soon afterwards. Could you source where you're getting your info from?

Dark Rendezvous, for just one source.



Originally posted by Taven
That's great for Dooku, I still don't see how this establishes the position that you appear to give him. Amongst some of the greatest swordsmen ever, that fencing came naturally to him is a pretty worthless point.

It didn't come to him naturally so much as it came to him over his extensive years of practice. Please. No one has fencing come that naturally to him; Qui-Gon, Dooku's own apprentice who would logically fence him countless times thought that Dooku's technical skill was incredible to that extent. And Qui-Gon died more than 10 years prior to RotS, during which Dooku should have increased in prowess.



Originally posted by Taven
...Yeah, you didn't even come close to proving any of that. As Mace Windu's words would indicate, he was only truly proficient with a single lightsaber form: Makashi, and as for his supposed legendary status, the same can be said for almost everyone on my list. That Qui-Gon regarded him as a "fencer" is as worthless a point as you could give, and training in his chosen form of combat extensively throughout his lifetime can be said for almost any dedicated one form Master of the Lightsaber there is. I fail to see how Dooku truly stands out.

-Dooku is old. Plenty amount of time- in fact, much more than any one you listed- to train his lightsaber prowess.

-Dooku is a saber specialist. According to you, he even only truly knows one form, so his focus- and his complete mastery of it- should be astounding.

-Dooku is one of the greatest Jedi in history.

yoda...is toilet paper

russia

O... kay...

Double posting are we?

That's ok.

I have seen a quadruple post before by that Mr. Parker kid in the conspiracy forums...

Hahaha.

Originally posted by Taven
6. Kit Fisto - Renowned among his Order for as much.

7. Saesee Tiin - See above.Yes, by Obi-Wan. The narrator only gives such praise to Kolar and Windu.
It's ironic that you consider Obi-Wan Dooku's technical superior for mastering Soresu to its highest level when the Count mastered Makashi - by all accounts a more complex and multifaceted combat form - to a higher degree than anyone else in the Order, knew every fault and flaw of Ataru thanks to his training under Yoda and his tutoring of Qui-Gon (two of the most prominent users of the style), and actively taught Grievous the seven lightsaber forms. LoE makes mention of this, as does RotS:

"I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku." -- Grievous

Not to mention that the feat you mentioned was regularly replicated by Dooku in their sparring sessions.
As the suited Darth Vader, once he had to make severe alterations to his combat style. There's no indication he had much variety as a Jedi.

Originally posted by Taven
Again, that he was 80 does not lead on to the idea that he possesses an anomalous length of time to train with his lightsaber for.

Dooku is a person who loved lightsaber dueling, training, fencing, and in general getting his skills up. He had more time to train than any of the people you listed. Really, that's completely ridiculous.

Originally posted by Taven
Well it's a double edged sword, really. The more time he spends devoting himself to one form, the smaller the familiarity he'll possess with the others. All that he possesses in his specialisation with Makashi, he lacks in versatility and completeness. As good as he may have been with Makashi, he would have only ever been a one-dimensional master of the weapon.

What is greater? Having a mastery of all forms (Kas'im), or having absolutely unparalleled mastery of one form (Dooku)? It's up for debate. But Dooku's technical skill in Makashi should be, as I've said more than once, unimaginable.

Regarding Dooku's Force powers, his feats within canon show that the Count may not be Skywalker- or Durron- or Sidious-class in raw potency, but he has displayed an alarming degree of ingenuity and precision with his techniques (i.e. Force choking Vos, pushing him backward, and disarming him at the same time). He seems to be the very pinnacle of refinement.

He WAS said to have 80% of the Emperor's strength in the force. That should be enough to qualify his raw power as one a very high scale. Obviously not Skywalker, Durron, or Sidious/Yoda in capacity, but I'd say that he can be argued to have the same amount of raw power as someone such as Mace, for example.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He WAS said to have 80% of the Emperor's strength in the force.

That was Vader, not Dooku.

Wasn't the quote about Suited Vader, Maul, and Dooku? All three of them?

No. Suited Vader is 80% of Sidious and above the other two. The quote you're thinking about is often taken out of context.

O-kay. My bad, then.

Still, Dooku- being a prodigious, skilled, and talented force user would logically have a good degree of raw power.

Undoubtedly. However, he still can't touch Vader, and comes nowhere near Anakin, well as he would have/could have been. That's why even in RoTS, Anakin turned Dooku's entire being into a mere "joke."

And did I ever argue that he was even approaching close to Anakin, who has double the raw power of the most powerful Sith in history?

Yeah. Anakin's raw power >>>>>>>>>> Dooku's raw power, but that should apply for basically everyone in the saga.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Undoubtedly. However, he still can't touch Vader,In what sense? Vader never showed an iota of the refinement and mastery demonstrated by the Count, and while he possesses the greater raw power of the two, I'd hesitate to say there's an enormously significant margin there.

A fight between Vader and Dooku could go either way, IMO.

I would lean heavily towards Vader, really, but there's no arguing that the Count completely outclasses him as far as skill and refinement are concerned.

Yeah, that's true.

I'd guess that Vader is more likely to take an all-out fight, yeah. But I think Dooku should be able to take a saber duel, at least.

Originally posted by Faunus
In what sense? Vader never showed an iota of the refinement and mastery demonstrated by the Count, and while he possesses the greater raw power of the two, I'd hesitate to say there's an enormously significant margin there. Are you talking about force or sabers?

Force. Vader isn't even close in dueling finesse.

Originally posted by Faunus
Force. Vader isn't even close in dueling finesse.

Go back and read TFU's novel, you whore.

You said it sucked. I do not observe suckage.

Edit: Correct me if you think I'm wrong on the matter.

Originally posted by Faunus
You said it sucked. I do not observe suckage.

You don't look at your mom? Because if last night was any indication, the woman is a living vacuum.

The comic is six jillion times better. The novel sucked not because of the plot because of how it was written. Like an aggrandized GameFaq walkthrough.

Originally posted by Gideon
You don't look at my mom? Because if last night was any indication, the woman is a living vacuum. Edited for TRUTH. Yeah, I take the psychos too, but only the hot ones.
Is the comic/novel still in the brutally exaggerated mold of the game as far as feats are concerned? Like, how does he bring down the SD?

Damn. Nice turnaburn. As far as the Star Destroyer, he guides it down to crash on a massive Imperial cannon. That's in both comic and novel. And go to the Battlebar thread and read the ToW excerpts.

Originally posted by Gideon
Damn. Nice turnaburn.Wait. Admission? Stop it, man, you're scaring me. I've had enough scares in the past week as it is, I DON'T NEED THEM OVER THE WEB.
Under his own power? What...

Originally posted by Faunus
Wait. Admission? Stop it, man, you're scaring me. I've had enough scares in the past week as it is, I DON'T NEED THEM OVER THE WEB.

Well, duh. You're on your A-game this week.



Yes. According to the novelization, he summons the power and weight of the Star Destroyer in "one finger" or some shit. The comic shows an awesome mini-fight between His Imperial Majesty and STARKILLAH!

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, duh. You're on your A-game this week.Truth. But please, "A-Game" talk brings back memories of Numan.
And then "Starkiller" blows himself up with Palpatine's lightning or something? Meh.

The art looks decent, though, from what I've seen.

What version of the fight do you want? The novelization's or the comic's?

I guess that means they're different.

Both, but you needn't go into excruciating detail unless you want to.

Damn, so the whole 'I brought down a Star Destroyer' feat is considered canon, after all. That certainly puts the apprentice a tier above many powerful characters, forcewise.

I heard he used the Force to manipulate an ion cannon or something to bring down the Star Destroyer.

Originally posted by Faunus
I guess that means they're different.

Both, but you needn't go into excruciating detail unless you want to.

They are different. The novelization really doesn't depict a fight between Starkiller and the Emperor; Palpatine electrocutes Kota, Starkiller interrupts by throwing debris, Palpatine drops to his knees and gives Starkiller the patented RotJ speech "strike me down." Starkiller refuses and Palpatine attacks Kota again. Starkiller steps between Palpatine and Kota, takes the lightning, and is described as going through unimaginable pain, takes two steps, grasps the Emperor, and the lightning electrocutes them both. He senses stormtroopers about too shoot at Organa, Mothma, and Bel Iblis, and so he takes on such Force power that he becomes one with it. He explodes into Force energy, disintegrates the stormtroopers, and attempts to engulf Palpatine and Vader. He succeeds in detonating the entire observation tower in what the comic depicts as a Star Destroyer sized explosion.

Palpatine and Vader survive, however.

In the comic book, Palpatine tells Starkiller to kill Vader after he defeats him in battle. Kota does the same thing in the novelization: he steals the Emperor's lightsaber with the Force, cuts down the Red Guard, and leaps at Palpatine; Palpatine fries him with Force lightning and knocks him out. The Emperor then levitates into the air and Starkiller attacks him, blaming the Emperor for everything that has gone wrong on his life, calling him Starkiller's TRUE master, the one responsible for his turn. Palpatine confirms this and blasts Starkiller across the room with Force lightning and disarms him. Starkiller retaliates by using the Force to hurl Palpatine up into the roof of the tower and then electrocutes him when he falls back down. Palpatine laughs and tells Starkiller to kill him. Starkiller is about to, but Kota tells him that if he does, the Emperor will have won. So Starkiller tells Kota to get the Senators out of here while he keeps Palpatine at bay. Palpatine jumps up and attacks Kota with Force lightning. Starkiller steps in the way and he and Palpatine have a face off with Force energy which culminates in a Star Destroyer sized explosion that leaves Starkiller dead and Palpatine left standing.

... Oh.

Kota's a jackass, then. And I thought Starkiller killed him early on.