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I'm new here, and am assuming a scenario similar to this has been established.

but anyway, who takes it?

Is there any collection of beings besides the One Above All (God) who can take on The Living Tribunal?

still curious as to whether or not any group of beings can defeat the living tribunal.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
I'm new here, and am assuming a scenario similar to this has been established.

but anyway, who takes it?

Is there any collection of beings besides the One Above All (God) who can take on The Living Tribunal? Short, short answer: No. If you don't have the Heart of the Universe with you, you're going down.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE


Is there any collection of beings besides the One Above All (God) who can take on The Living Tribunal?

The ones in this thread cant but i know a certain firebird who can

The only beings I see doing this are likely The Pheonix Force or The Spectre Force.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The ones in this thread cant but i know a certain firebird who can lol got to it right before me.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The ones in this thread cant but i know a certain firebird who can Don't you start that again. At any rate, that would only be a stalemate.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Don't you start that again. At any rate, that would only be a stalemate.

What do you mean dont start that again. Dont be fooled by Mr Splat its actually shown in X-men forever that Phoenix is the only constant and has a greater purpose in existence. They are peers though.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What do you mean dont start that again. Dont be fooled by Mr Splat its actually shown in X-men forever that Phoenix is the only constant and has a greater purpose in existence. They are peers though. Please. Phoenix fighting LT would be like Jesus fighting the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Please. Phoenix fighting LT would be like Jesus fighting the Holy Spirit.

LT isnt an aspect of God he's a being created to serve god so thats incorrect. As X-men forever states that LT is replaced every creation cycle controlled by Phoenix its a possibility that he was created by the energies of creation which is ...........PHOENIX

TOAA
THOTU
true beyonders

Originally posted by leonheartmm
TOAA
THOTU
true beyonders

The true beyonders arent as powerful as you think they are. Theres no evidence that theyre any more powerful than Eternity.

People simply got ideas about the Pre retcon Beyonder mixed up with The true beyonders who are not embodiments of a multiverse seperate from our own. They live in a dimension accessible through the negative zone. They are very much a part of our multiverse and so are under the jurisdiction of beings like LT

I'm still not convinced that THOTU can take the LT and not just an aspect of it.

Anyhow, LT is still going to come out on top.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The true beyonders arent as powerful as you think they are. Theres no evidence that theyre any more powerful than Eternity.

People simply got ideas about the Pre retcon Beyonder mixed up with The true beyonders who are not embodiments of a multiverse seperate from our own. They live in a dimension accessible through the negative zone. They are very much a part of our multiverse and so are under the jurisdiction of beings like LT

n then u say u dont start arguments, beyonders were BEYOND the multiverse, the things the preretconned beyonder did were a repreentation of the true beyonders, even reed confirmed that the beyonder could indeed destroy the multiverse.

When will you guys get it?
The only thing that beats an aspect of God is another aspect of God. -
And LT is powered by God's energies, which puts him a notch below that.
And anything inside of the multiverse.. is at least a notch below that. Depending on the character.. sometimes several notches.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
n then u say u dont start arguments, beyonders were BEYOND the multiverse, the things the preretconned beyonder did were a repreentation of the true beyonders, even reed confirmed that the beyonder could indeed destroy the multiverse.

The feats the Fake Beyonder did were all written off (RETCONNED) as illusions so how can you say that they are an indication of what the True Beyonders are capable of?

That doesnt make sense Leon cant you see that.

The true beyonders exist in the Negative Zone. The fake beyond was from beyond. Thats what you dont understand people have got the ideas mixed up.

Originally posted by Juntai
When will you guys get it?
The only thing that beats an aspect of God is another aspect of God. -
And LT is powered by God's energies, which puts him a notch below that.
And anything inside of the multiverse.. is at least a notch below that. Depending on the character.. sometimes several notches.

Exactly

Originally posted by leonheartmm
n then u say u dont start arguments, beyonders were BEYOND the multiverse, the things the preretconned beyonder did were a repreentation of the true beyonders, even reed confirmed that the beyonder could indeed destroy the multiverse.

How old are you for you to consider someone stating a different opinion to yours as grounds for an argument?

The Beyonder was a controversial character amongst creators. Creators felt that Jim Shooter had abused his role as editor-in-chief, and forced the use of the omnipotent character upon other writers and editors. Some critics felt the crossovers didn't always mesh well with the main book. One of the most vocal critics was John Byrne.

Apparently, Steve Englehart wanted to tie in the Beyonder to older characters known as the Beyonders. According to Englehart, editor Ralph Macchio hated the character and ordered the Beyonder "removed" from the Marvel Universe. Englehart did as asked but has stated that he tried to exile the character with dignity. The character was subjected to a retcon making him less potent that originally determined, and explanations of his omnipotence have been written off as the more powerful beings "playing along" because the Beyonder's role was pre-determined.


From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonder

There you have it Leon. The true beyonders were around in Marvel prior to the fake beyonder and Secret Wars. They live in a dimension accessible from the negative zone and were behind the cosmic cubes. Therefor eyou have no proof that theyre even more powerful than the abstracts and we know that theyre under the jurisdiction of LT.

A lot of the editors in Marvel didnt like the fake beyonder so they retconned him, wrote all of his feats as illusions and then linked him to the pre-existing beings called the beyonders.

Somehwere down the line a lot of people here seem to have got the ideas between them mixed them. Glad ive set you straight.

add the PF and

Lt beats all of them

Originally posted by kgkg
add the PF and

Lt beats all of them

When i saw your name pop up i knew you were gonna post

LT guards the multiverse my baby created theyre obviously peers its just that Jean has a greater purpose in creation, she also outlasts him as the only constant in creation

LT gets his ass replaced

Not this again.

Look, could we just have a moritorium on God Aspect level characters? Source, Presence, Phoenix, Tribunal, etc. are all pointless in arguing. They all encompass the same power, they just have different roles in existence, and in some instances, those roles supercede each other (i.e. Phoenix and LT).

We've debated in circles long enough.

It's time to put it to rest.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Not this again.

Look, could we just have a moritorium on God Aspect level characters? Source, Presence, Phoenix, Tribunal, etc. are all pointless in arguing. They all encompass the same power, they just have different roles in existence, and in some instances, those roles supercede each other (i.e. Phoenix and LT).

We've debated in circles long enough.

It's time to put it to rest.

But its fun

Plus Lt's a being created by god for a purpose he's not an aspect

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But its fun

Plus Lt's a being created by god for a purpose he's not an aspect This is a battle.

Not theories.
PF(ok Shard) was fighting the X-men.

If you find a issue where LT gets beat in battle holla back

And GS I have heard all your theories before

Originally posted by kgkg
This is a battle.

Not theories.
PF(ok Shard) was fighting the X-men.

If you find a issue where LT gets beat in battle holla back

And GS I have heard all your theories before




Well heres LT's best efforts getting nullified by strange Pre Sorcerer Supreme era :


http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3973/strangetales1582028xz.jpg

and again:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5593/strangetales1582120rg.jpg

Best till last lol:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/941/theend0609tato5im.jpg

Engaging in fisticuffs with Strange KG. LT's there to perform a role hes only powerful when acting inside his role. Outside of his role or when faced with the power of God he's nothing:

http://img308.imageshack.us/img308/9720/69xs.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well heres LT's best efforts getting nullified by strange Pre Sorcerer Supreme era :


http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3973/strangetales1582028xz.jpg

and again:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5593/strangetales1582120rg.jpg

Best till last lol:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/941/theend0609tato5im.jpg

Marvel Gods suck !!!!!!!!!!!!! Frinking helll, im so dissapointed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well heres LT's best efforts getting nullified by strange Pre Sorcerer Supreme era :


http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3973/strangetales1582028xz.jpg

and again:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5593/strangetales1582120rg.jpg

Best till last lol:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/941/theend0609tato5im.jpg

good examples

that was one of LT's first showing and ya Lt sure lost to Strange

but guess what Strange was also able to Use the PF use it's power.

What does this prove is beyond me

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Engaging in fisticuffs with Strange KG. LT's there to perform a role hes only powerful when acting inside his role. Outside of his role or when faced with the power of God he's nothing:

http://img308.imageshack.us/img308/9720/69xs.jpg
only one head

sure was heck of a battle

Originally posted by kgkg
only one head

sure was heck of a battle

Dont try and deny it was him KG thats cowardly. I can post better quality pics if need be. I have my phone next to me and the issue's in my bedroom. It will take all of 5 mins

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont try and deny it was him KG thats cowardly. I can post better quality pics if need be. I have my phone next to me and the issue's in my bedroom. It will take all of 5 mins

Sure was the PF tho rite.


And it was X-men forever shitty comic who didn't know how marvel system works

That comic was saying Mutants ( Humans) will replace abstract nothing more.

Pretty stupid.

And you are arguing that PF > Lt from that ingenious

Originally posted by kgkg
Sure was the PF tho rite.


And it was X-men forever shitty comic who didn't know how marvel system works

That comic was saying Mutants ( Humans) will replace abstract nothing more.

Pretty stupid.

And you are arguing that PF > Lt from that ingenious

Totally incorrect. As for humanity replacing the abstracts as for the whole X-men forever thing whereby Phoenix controls evolution and the creation cycle. That is current continuity so what happened in that still applies. You need only look in the ltest F4 handbook to see this theory still in play. Galan a humanoid from the old universe was brought by Phoenix and bonded with the cosmic egg (new eternity) it made therefore creating Galactus in the current universe.

The idea of humanity evolving into higher beings which surpass the abstracts is still continuity im afraid and while Galactus and the abstracts are victims of this process Phoenix remains constant as the controller of this process. According to X-men forever the abstracts and Galactus of 616 are merely the evolved form of humanity from the previous universe. The entry in this years F4 handbook supports that. As does the fact that theres been nothing published which contradicts that theory. I guess you'll just have to deal with it.

Im saying Phoenix has a greater role in Marvel than LT. The fact that its the origin point for all of existence and its the controller of evolution and the creation cycle pretty much says it all. LT guards the multiverse, when phoenix ends it every cycle his time is up. As aforementioned his ass gets replaced

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im saying Phoenix has a greater role in Marvel than LT. The fact that its the origin point for all of existence and its the controller of evolution and the creation cycle pretty much says it all. LT guards the multiverse, when phoenix ends it every cycle his time is up. As aforementioned his ass gets replaced

Greater role sure

That’s why she is the Protector and has saved the Universe countless time.

This is pretty simple PF vs LT in a battle no theories, no bullshit.

And u keep saying the highest feat of PF was containing the Crystal (LT beat that shit)

well LT was stronger than PF highest Showing.

keep in mind this is a battle

Originally posted by kgkg
Greater role sure

That’s why she is the Protector and has saved the Universe countless time.

This is pretty simple PF vs LT in a battle no theories, no bullshit.

And u keep saying the highest feat of PF was containing the Crystal (LT beat that shit)

well LT was stronger than PF highest Showing.

keep in mind this is a battle

Of course she has a greater role. He's just the guardian whose role gets usurped every creation cycle whilst shes the creator of said multiverse and the controller of evolution and the creation cycle. As stated in Uncanny X-men and F4 recently she is the origin point of all creation. A constant throughout existence. She doesnt get replaced she's the one who brings about his replacement hence the reason Stranger wanted to tap into her power.

Going by feats containing a multiversal ranging effect and holding realities in her hand and restructuring them is a greater feat than any LT has had on panel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Totally incorrect. As for humanity replacing the abstracts as for the whole X-men forever thing whereby Phoenix controls evolution and the creation cycle. That is current continuity so what happened in that still applies. You need only look in the ltest F4 handbook to see this theory still in play. Galan a humanoid from the old universe was brought by Phoenix and bonded with the cosmic egg (new eternity) it made therefore creating Galactus in the current universe.

The idea of humanity evolving into higher beings which surpass the abstracts is still continuity im afraid and while Galactus and the abstracts are victims of this process Phoenix remains constant as the controller of this process. According to X-men forever the abstracts and Galactus of 616 are merely the evolved form of humanity from the previous universe. The entry in this years F4 handbook supports that. As does the fact that theres been nothing published which contradicts that theory. I guess you'll just have to deal with it.
but this say PF > LT in a battle?

ya PF= Big Bang ya ya i know

Originally posted by kgkg
but this say PF > LT in a battle?

ya PF= Big Bang ya ya i know

Going by X-men forever LT himself is an evolved humanoid from the previous multiverse. Whether thats true or not i dont know but since nothings been published since the mini that contradicts that who are we to argue?

In that case id say yeah phoenix could beat LT just as soundly as Thanos did above.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Going by X-men forever LT himself is an evolved humanoid from the previous multiverse. Whether thats true or not i dont know but since nothings been published since the mini that contradicts that who are we to argue?

In that case id say yeah phoenix could beat LT just as soundly as Thanos did above.
no man here is how it is shown

FF says

She hulk issue says LT has power over all of creation>PF = Big Bang a force.


PF is the Tree, LT is the guy with the chainsaw

And stop using that forever bullshit it was saying LT is an abstract which is false.

LT is know as above the abstract and beyond such concept that book didn’t know much. (X-men book what can you expect )

And haven't we done this too many times?

lol

Originally posted by kgkg
no man here is how it is shown

FF says

She hulk issue says LT has power over all of creation>PF = Big Bang a force.


PF is the Tree, LT is the guy with the chainsaw

And stop using that forever bullshit it was saying LT is an abstract which is false.

LT is know as above the abstract and beyond such concept that book didn’t know much. (X-men book what can you expect )

You cant ignore X-men forever went its current continuity and just because it doesnt coincide with your own opinions. Its the only source in current continuity we have where there powers and roles are measured up against each other.

F4 said Phoenix was the energies of creation which is true, New X-men and recent issues of Uncanny agree with that but also add more. Phoenix is an aspect and it represents the Crown in creation. Th eCrown by definition represents union with God. The nearest thing Marvel has to god is TOAA.

Given that LT guards the creation Phoenix makes, given that LT is clearly shown to be a victim of the creation cycle creation controls one can come to the conclusion that not only does phoenix have a greater role than just a guardian against multiversal threats (LT) but also that it has greater power than LT as depicted in X-men forever very clearly.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You cant ignore X-men forever went its current continuity and just because it doesnt coincide with your own opinions. Its the only source in current continuity we have where there powers and roles are measured up against each other.

F4 said Phoenix was the energies of creation which is true, New X-men and recent issues of Uncanny agree with that but also add more. Phoenix is an aspect and it represents the Crown in creation. Th eCrown by definition represents union with God. The nearest thing Marvel has to god is TOAA.

Given that LT guards the creation Phoenix makes, given that LT is clearly shown to be a victim of the creation cycle creation controls one can come to the conclusion that not only does phoenix have a greater role than just a guardian against multiversal threats (LT) but also that it has greater power than LT as depicted in X-men forever very clearly.
Man stop Bullshitting

F4 said

Big Bang = PF you want scans no need to analyze it says it

Well here X-men Forever contradicts all of marvel Comics

No wonder they left it out in LT, or the End

Guess what I'm going to put in a repect thread!

Originally posted by kgkg
Man stop Bullshitting

F4 said

Big Bang = PF you want scans no need to analyze it says it

Well here X-men Forever contradicts all of marvel Comics

No wonder they left it out in LT, or the End

It does call Phoenix the big bang but it also calls it the energies of creation so please tell how me how im bullshitting:

http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/5969/fantasticfour522120vz.jpg



Now we have that cleared up if X-men Forever contradicts comics and then recent comics and handbooks come in and support it then guess what that situations called? RETCON!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by long pig
Guess what I'm going to put in a repect thread!

For who?

Am I missing something? Those scans don't show LT getting owned. Have people actually read what is said in the captions?

And secondly, GS, LT is an aspect of TOAA. He's TOAA's appointed guardian of all creation.
God's Protection.

Just because TOAA used the Phoenix Force to create LT does not make LT weaker than the Phoenix Force. It's simply a technicality because all things are created through God's power of creation. The Phoenix Force is simply the TOAA's will to create/power of creation, it's not the sum of TOAA's abilities, it's a embodiment of his will.

TOAA could technically use the Phoenix Force to create his own equal, as illogical as that would seem (he could never create anything greater than himself, just equal to or lesser than being that he is the supreme). Would Phoenix then be more powerful than TOAA's equal because Phoenix was used to create it?

As I've said before, the Phoenix is not an absolute. It's purpose supercedes LT's purpose, not specifically it's power. Just as Jean was created to wield the Phoenix Force in creation, Living Tribunal was created to oversee and protecct all creation wielding the power of TOAA. Only difference being that by design, Phoenix is used to create, destroy, and re-create, which makes the purpose of LT, at the times of destruction, non-essential.

But anyway, I'm tired of these God Level debates GS. They are good, and we do usually get some good intelligent debates out of them, but in the end, nothing is really accomplished.

2 weeks later a Batman 1M w/2 years prep Vs. Phoenix or Morg w/Waters & Tyrant Vs. Phoenix thread will pop up and the essay posting will begin anew.

The cycle goes on forever.

Phoenix truly is the only constant in the Marvel Universe.













Besides Wolverine.

And yo, I thought LT didn't have fingers? In that pick when he's being absorbed by Thanos he has fingers.

The almighty retcon!!!!
All hail retcon!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It does call Phoenix the big bang but it also calls it the energies of creation so please tell how me how im bullshitting:

http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/5969/fantasticfour522120vz.jpg



Now we have that cleared up if X-men Forever contradicts comics and then recent comics and handbooks come in and support it then guess what that situations called? RETCON!!!!!!!!!
it's called Retcon

energies hmmmmmmm


Power Over all of Creation vs Energies of Creation ( the big bang) hmmmmmmmmmmm

Originally posted by illadelph12


Am I missing something? Those scans don't show LT getting owned. Have people actually read what is said in the captions?

And secondly, GS, LT is an aspect of TOAA. He's TOAA's appointed guardian of all creation.
God's Protection.

You have no evidence whatsoever to say that LT is an aspect of TOAA. Is surfer an aspect of Glaactus? No he is a herald of Galactus. Phoenix is a part of TOAA. His creation aspect and that is supported by its other names on panel, Tiphereth, White Crown) which are all aspects of god and the fact that crossovers have presented it as one and the same as an aspect of God (The Source). You dont seem to acknowledge the difference between an aspect of something and a creation of something. Theres no evidence whatsoever, no reference on panel to LT being an aspect.


Originally posted by illadelph12
As I've said before, the Phoenix is not an absolute. It's purpose supercedes LT's purpose, not specifically it's power. Just as Jean was created to wield the Phoenix Force in creation, Living Tribunal was created to oversee and protecct all creation wielding the power of TOAA. Only difference being that by design, Phoenix is used to create, destroy, and re-create, which makes the purpose of LT, at the times of destruction, non-essential.

Given the fact that you fail to make a distinction between an aspect and a creation of something i cant say i agree with the above. Jean wasnt created to wield the Phoenix force in creation, she is the phoenix force in creation, a direct manifestation of it in creation. That is the distinction between her and the other host bodies who merely house some of the power.

Originally posted by illadelph12
But anyway, I'm tired of these God Level debates GS. They are good, and we do usually get some good intelligent debates out of them, but in the end, nothing is really accomplished.

2 weeks later a Batman 1M w/2 years prep Vs. Phoenix or Morg w/Waters & Tyrant Vs. Phoenix thread will pop up and the essay posting will begin anew.

I enjoy them now and again. Especially with you and KG . I knew just what to say to get KG involved and he fell for it lol.

Originally posted by kgkg
it's called Retcon

energies hmmmmmmm


Power Over all of Creation vs Energies of Creation ( the big bang) hmmmmmmmmmmm

Need i post a scan showing LT on his knees again. As featured in a comic which is CURRENT continuity?

According to X-men forever Lt's derived from creation so youre really not helping yourself mate.

Originally posted by kgkg
And haven't we done this too many times?

lol

i agree, this has been done too many times.

So Living Tribunal isn't the physical representation/manifestation of TOAA's protection and judgement in creation?

Damn you for dragging me into this debate GS!!!

Look, I'll leave it at this:

Jean Grey, the mutated human being, was created by TOAA using the Phoenix Force (she was born), and is one with the Phoenix Force, and in so being, wields God's power of creation and destruction.

Living Tribunal, is a being created by TOAA (using the Phoenix Force) with the sole purpose of protecting, judging and balancing everything that TOAA creates, and is empowered directly by TOAA to do so.

The technicality that there is no specified name for the "force" that empowers Living Tribunal, and the fact that the Phoenix Force, by design, is used to create Living Tribunal, does not make the Phoenix Force wholely superior to Living Tribunal. TOAA, through Phoenix, his "power to create", could create an avatar for his other aspects as well, like his power of protection, his power of judgement, etc., the roles Living Tribunal fulfills.

Granted, this is not written, but this can easily be deduced by simply looking at the material presented objectively.

Now, with that said, if Phoenix embodies TOAA's power of destruction, and Living Tribunal embodies TOAA's power of protection, when TOAA moves to use his power to destroy something, is he going to use his power of protection to stop the action?

No.

It is at this juncture that the purpose of the Phoenix supercedes the purpose of Living Tribunal.

Does that make Phoenix more powerful than Living Tribunal?

No.

It simply means that the purpose of the Phoenix, at times, is outside the confines of Living Tribunal's purpose. Logically when you act to destroy something, you don't mean to protect it, and you can't protect something if it doesn't exist.

They are peers, and complimentary parts of a whole.

Without Living Tribunal to protect creation, it's cycles would be unbalanced and in an endless premature purge.

Without Phoenix there'd be no creation cycle for Living Tribunal to protect at all.

Is that clearer?

Quit arguing Gods!!!

Street Level Heroes is where it's at.

Except Batman.

so wait, gs, now ur godly pheonix only has the power of the big bang of ONE universe as opposed to the infinite universes in the multiverse?

Originally posted by illadelph12
So Living Tribunal isn't the physical representation/manifestation of TOAA's protection and judgement in creation?

Damn you for dragging me into this debate GS!!!

Look, I'll leave it at this:

Jean Grey, the mutated human being, was created by TOAA using the Phoenix Force (she was born), and is one with the Phoenix Force, and in so being, wields God's power of creation and destruction.

Living Tribunal, is a being created by TOAA (using the Phoenix Force) with the sole purpose of protecting, judging and balancing everything that TOAA creates, and is empowered directly by TOAA to do so.

The technicality that there is no specified name for the "force" that empowers Living Tribunal, and the fact that the Phoenix Force, by design, is used to create Living Tribunal, does not make the Phoenix Force wholely superior to Living Tribunal. TOAA, through Phoenix, his "power to create", could create an avatar for his other aspects as well, like his power of protection, his power of judgement, etc., the roles Living Tribunal fulfills.

Granted, this is not written, but this can easily be deduced by simply looking at the material presented objectively.

Now, with that said, if Phoenix embodies TOAA's power of destruction, and Living Tribunal embodies TOAA's power of protection, when TOAA moves to use his power to destroy something, is he going to use his power of protection to stop the action?

No.

It is at this juncture that the purpose of the Phoenix supercedes the purpose of Living Tribunal.

Does that make Phoenix more powerful than Living Tribunal?

No.

It simply means that the purpose of the Phoenix, at times, is outside the confines of Living Tribunal's purpose. Logically when you act to destroy something, you don't mean to protect it, and you can't protect something if it doesn't exist.

They are peers, and complimentary parts of a whole.

Without Living Tribunal to protect creation, it's cycles would be unbalanced and in an endless premature purge.

Without Phoenix there'd be no creation cycle for Living Tribunal to protect at all.

Is that clearer?

Quit arguing Gods!!!

Street Level Heroes is where it's at.

Except Batman.

Well i wont carry it on mostly because that was one loooong post and secondly because although i dont agree with all of what youre saying its logical and you come to the same conclusion that theyre peers which is cool.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
so wait, gs, now ur godly pheonix only has the power of the big bang of ONE universe as opposed to the infinite universes in the multiverse? The 616 is Marvel's prime universe, the other universes are different vibrational frequencies of the prime universe, a different frequency for every possibility.

Originally posted by Juntai
The 616 is Marvel's prime universe, the other universes are different vibrational frequencies of the prime universe, a different frequency for every possibility.


but that means theres a different pheonix for every universe in the multiverse, ust like other abstracts and not one omnipotent one

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but that means theres a different pheonix for every universe in the multiverse, ust like other abstracts and not one omnipotent one They exist because 616 exists, and 616 exists because Pheonix created it.
She is the spark of CREATION, not the Universe.
CREATION is much more broad.

Don't forget that the rest of the realities and universes can survives the destruction of the 616 reality (as Roma pointed out a month or two ago, when she was about to destroy it).

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Don't forget that the rest of the realities and universes can survives the destruction of the 616 reality (as Roma pointed out a month or two ago, when she was about to destroy it). But that doesn't change anything I said in the context I used it in. Pheonix created creation.. primarily, 616, and the rest are just different vibrations of it.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I'm still not convinced that THOTU can take the LT

You are kidding, right. LT is joke to THOTU. THOTU also in some way showed, what would happen to anyone if would challenge TOAA.
THOTU is the only power ever shown that we could consider as absolute, almighty power.
Phoenix Force is beyond LT.
Anyway the team Death, Eternity, Thanos with Infinity would lose to LT.

Phoenix is more a Representative of the cycle of destruction than the cycle of life. She brings down upon the world in the form of knowledge the force one would use to purport that agenda. She appears to be life's vanguard but look at the representation of what she is. Arising from the ashes to be destroyed to rise again.
Being on that side of the fence; granted she has some power but it is far more powerful to be on the side of love...thus maybe why she choose Jean as her host...cause of her love for Scott...than it will or could ever be to be on the side of destruction.
Thanos learned that lesson.
Even the One above All or the living Tribunal doesn't have the authority to override love of one for another.
The beyonder tried to earn it with Dazzler giving her half of all he was and failed.
Love just a little today and be immortalized forever.
Have a nice nite.

The Starbrand

Originally posted by Xplosive
You are kidding, right. LT is joke to THOTU. THOTU also in some way showed, what would happen to anyone if would challenge TOAA.
THOTU is the only power ever shown that we could consider as absolute, almighty power.
IMO, there's a reason it's called Heart of the Universe. Thanos referred repeatedly to HIS REALITY, HIS UNIVERSE, etc. It's not power absolute across the multiversal spectrum. If so, Adam Warlock would not have appeared like he did. There was an ASPECT of the LT present, just as when there are issues elsewhere an ASPECT of the LT appears. There's nothing to suggest that the LT was completely destroyed.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
There's nothing to suggest that the LT was completely destroyed.

LT was completely destroyed. He is at a one everywhere, he chllanege THOTU andhe died as an insect, he was completely destroyed.

Originally posted by Xplosive
LT was completely destroyed. He is at a one everywhere, he chllanege THOTU andhe died as an insect, he was completely destroyed.

he wasn't destroyed rather he was absorb.

THOTU is beyond PF who hasn't done much.

Other than silly theories out here


God/ Presence ( yah)
recreated chain of power

like LT / Lucifer

who are beyond FP , and Source

Originally posted by kgkg
he wasn't destroyed rather he was absorb.

THOTU is beyond PF who hasn't done much.

Other than silly theories out here


God/ Presence ( yah)
recreated chain of power

like LT / Lucifer

who are beyond FP , and Source

LT and Lucifer are not beyond the Source as the source is an aspect of god. You are only going to beat an aspect of god with another part of god. Understand that.

You keep saying Phoenix has done much but on panel its been accredited with being the power behind all of creation, it contained the multiverse destroying power of the M'kraan crystal and Jean held the 616 reality (Eternity) in her hand like it was nothing amputated an undesirable future and restructured its matter telekinetically.

Those feats are more than LT has ever accomplished so what are you goingon about?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT and Lucifer are not beyond the Source as the source is an aspect of god. You are only going to beat an aspect of god with another part of god. Understand that.

You keep saying Phoenix has done much but on panel its been accredited with being the power behind all of creation, it contained the multiverse destroying power of the M'kraan crystal and Jean held the 616 reality (Eternity) in her hand like it was nothing amputated an undesirable future and restructured its matter telekinetically.

Those feats are more than LT has ever accomplished so what are you goingon about?
damn u are here

i have already answered those Question

contained the same PF could keep up with LT's power
held LT can destroy countless universe , there is no limit

and he is beyond fighting the X-men for a change

how many people have abused the PF in the past and used it's power.

Originally posted by kgkg
damn u are here

i have already answered those Question

contained the same PF could keep up with LT's power
held LT can destroy countless universe , there is no limit

and he is beyond fighting the X-men for a change

how many people have abused the PF in the past and used it's power.

KG thats irrelevant. I like the way you'd happily argue for Galactus against the skyfathers stating that there are circumstances behind his low showings (i.e he's weak and in need of sustenance) yet you arent willing to do that here.

Just like Phoenix LT has low showings, one of which i showed you wherer his efforts were getting nullified by Doctor Strange who himself admits hes not as powerful as Silver Surfer.

Going by the characters highest showings and their roles Phoenix wins. Look how you're saying "oh LT can destroy countless universes" but has he done that on panel? No. If it was the other way around and it was me saying that you'd dismiss my claims and say he hasnt done so on panel.

On panel Phoenix has far better feats and theres the fact that she created the multiverse LT guards. The fact that LT gets his ass replaced an idea which has yet to be contradicted since X-men forevers release.

Better feats, greater role, aspect of god.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
KG thats irrelevant. I like the way you'd happily argue for Galactus against the skyfathers stating that there are circumstances behind his low showings (i.e he's weak and in need of sustenance) yet you arent willing to do that here.

Just like Phoenix LT has low showings, one of which i showed you wherer his efforts were getting nullified by Doctor Strange who himself admits hes not as powerful as Silver Surfer.

Going by the characters highest showings and their roles Phoenix wins. Look how you're saying "oh LT can destroy countless universes" but has he done that on panel? No. If it was the other way around and it was me saying that you'd dismiss my claims and say he hasnt done so on panel.

On panel Phoenix has far better feats and theres the fact that she created the multiverse LT guards. The fact that LT gets his ass replaced an idea which has yet to be contradicted since X-men forevers release.

Better feats, greater role, aspect of god.
i haven't dimed anything you said GS

but i don't see how PF beats LT.

did you read that issue Gs strange later is begging , and even admits LT is beyond all.

so you are saying PF is like Galactus.

i mean you keep going by retcon etc

but lets look at Phoenix history nothing shows she is above LT

even now you take what it says inForever like bible which was total bullshit and contricts all of marvel like i have been saying like how many times

and please post scan of that FF shit you were talking about where you said PF creates the multiverse.

Originally posted by kgkg
i haven't dimed anything you said GS

but i don't see how PF beats LT.

did you read that issue Gs strange later is begging , and even admits LT is beyond all.

so you are saying PF is like Galactus.

i mean you keep going by retcon etc

but lets look at Phoenix history nothing shows she is above LT

even now you take what it says inForever like bible which was total bullshit and contricts all of marvel like i have been saying like how many times

and please post scan of that FF shit you were talking about where you said PF creates the multiverse.

KG do you know what a multiverse is? After a prime universe is created over time vibrational differences in that universe atoms cause alternate universes to form parallel to it. That is a multiverse. Phoenix created 616 the main marvel universe and over time alternate universes diverged from it at different points in the timestream gradually forming a multiverse whose point of origin is the phoenix.

Phoenix is the power source of creation and its heart is the Crown (as stated in Uncanny X-men 460), the White Hot room.

It seems you've been confused over what exactly a multiverse is. Now you know.

Of course ive read the issue. Thats how i posted the scan. Doesnt change the fact that it was a pre Sorcerer supreme strange who was nullifying LT's attempts. Thats a low showing however does that change what he's capable of at his best? NO!!! See my point?

No im not saying Phoenix is like Galactus where on earth are you getting that from?

Im going by X-men forever because its current continuity and the fact that it goes against every else supports my claim that a retcon has taken place.

Originally posted by kgkg
he wasn't destroyed rather he was absorb.


Which in the end equalls as the same, LT was gone, like he never existed and was shown as nothing compared to THOTU. THOTU than restored everything and make again a puppet from LT and any other when he made no one will remember anything and make a new rule. There were all beings in highest order in that battle, except PF.
Living Tribunal kneeled before Jean.

Originally posted by kgkg
held LT can destroy countless universe , there is no limit


He has limits, if he wouldnt, he would be equal to TOAA. He has limits, only THOTU showed no limits and we all know TOAA doesnt have limits, and he is the one who created HOTU.

Originally posted by kgkg
but lets look at Phoenix history nothing shows she is above LT

Living Tribunal kneeling before Phoenix is enough.
Its clear that PF is beyond LT. THOTU is beyond LT

TOAA
THOTU
PF
LT

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
KG do you know what a multiverse is? After a prime universe is created over time vibrational differences in that universe atoms cause alternate universes to form parallel to it. That is a multiverse. Phoenix created 616 the main marvel universe and over time alternate universes diverged from it at different points in the timestream gradually forming a multiverse whose point of origin is the phoenix.

Phoenix is the power source of creation and its heart is the Crown (as stated in Uncanny X-men 460), the White Hot room.

It seems you've been confused over what exactly a multiverse is. Now you know.

Of course ive read the issue. Thats how i posted the scan. Doesnt change the fact that it was a pre Sorcerer supreme strange who was nullifying LT's attempts. Thats a low showing however does that change what he's capable of at his best? NO!!! See my point?

No im not saying Phoenix is like Galactus where on earth are you getting that from?

Im going by X-men forever because its current continuity and the fact that it goes against every else supports my claim that a retcon has taken place.

So you think a retcon has happened to the everything else in marvel that's been going on for years?

And from what

Forever? Well in She-Hulk , The End Lt still seemed the main guy out there.

And you keep bring creation? So what

Galactus was part of creation ? does that chance shit? No


Think out

Lucifer and the Source

Originally posted by Xplosive
Which in the end equalls as the same, LT was gone, like he never existed and was shown as nothing compared to THOTU. THOTU than restored everything and make again a puppet from LT and any other when he made no one will remember anything and make a new rule. There were all beings in highest order in that battle, except PF.
Living Tribunal kneeled before Jean.



He has limits, if he wouldnt, he would be equal to TOAA. He has limits, only THOTU showed no limits and we all know TOAA doesnt have limits, and he is the one who created HOTU.



Living Tribunal kneeling before Phoenix is enough.
Its clear that PF is beyond LT. THOTU is beyond LT

TOAA
THOTU
PF
LT
did you read the issue my freind?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
KG do you know what a multiverse is? After a prime universe is created over time vibrational differences in that universe atoms cause alternate universes to form parallel to it. That is a multiverse. Phoenix created 616 the main marvel universe and over time alternate universes diverged from it at different points in the timestream gradually forming a multiverse whose point of origin is the phoenix.

Phoenix is the power source of creation and its heart is the Crown (as stated in Uncanny X-men 460), the White Hot room.

It seems you've been confused over what exactly a multiverse is. Now you know.
We already tried to describe this to these people multiple times.

Also with the aspect of God is the only thing beating an aspect of God, depending on which is favored in the circumstance, or which aspect is more closely following his intended role.

It's pretty much a repeat conversation now and quite useless.

Originally posted by kgkg
did you read the issue my freind?

Which? And its pretty stupid to say LT doesnt have limits.

Originally posted by kgkg
So you think a retcon has happened to the everything else in marvel that's been going on for years?

And from what

Forever? Well in She-Hulk , The End Lt still seemed the main guy out there.

And you keep bring creation? So what

Galactus was part of creation ? does that chance shit? No


Think out

Lucifer and the Source

KG you keep bringing up the same old points which at the time i answer then over a month or so you seem to forget (or stubbornly dismiss them ) and post them again.

In she hulk it basically said LT had jurisdiction over creation. Whats your point? We know that.

The 86 retcon had been in place for 17 years X-men forever and then New X-men were the first to contradict its ideas and therefore started the new phoenix interpretation. Its only this year that other sources apart from X-men (F4 and handbooks) have started to accept this which is understandable giving how long the previous ideas were in place. The latest handbooks which came out after The End supported the events of Forever, by referring to them and by changing Galactus' origin therefore showing its current continuity.

At the end of the day Forever (whose events have yet to be contradicted) showed that on the hierarchy Phoenix was above LT

This year it has been confirmed that Phoenix is indeed responsible for the creation of the multiverse (which says it all really) which it is Lt's role to guard.

New X-men and Uncanny X-men again confirmed the Crown/God link with Phoenix and as an aspect of God is beyond a creation of God who cannot act outside of his appointed role.

Originally posted by Juntai
We already tried to describe this to these people multiple times.

Also with the aspect of God is the only thing beating an aspect of God, depending on which is favored in the circumstance, or which aspect is more closely following his intended role.

It's pretty much a repeat conversation now and quite useless.

I know its frustrating. You're in the same situation in Spectre debates lol.

Its so obvious that an aspect of God a part of him is inherently beyond a creation of God who cant act outside of his role.

GalacticStorm, did LT kneel before Jean, cause I had seen that, was it him or not kneeling before Phoenix. I think he was and that is fact, and that is already enough Phoenix is beyond LT. Why is he saying did you read, I havent read whole issue, only seen picture LT kneeling before Jean.

Originally posted by Xplosive
GalacticStorm, did LT kneel before Jean, cause I had seen that, was it him or not kneeling before Phoenix. I think he was and that is fact, and that is already enough Phoenix is beyond LT. Why is he saying did you read, I havent read whole issue, only seen picture LT kneeling before Jean.

The comic was about evolution and how humanity would one day involve into beings who would surpass and replace the abstracts and LT.

The abstracts of this universe are just the evolved humanity of the last. Galactus is the best example of this, however the comic extended it to all the abstracts and LT.

The comic stated that Jean as Phoenix had already reached this potential and it showed that this process and creation were all revolved around Phoenix.

Stranger wanted to use Jean and her connection to the force (at the time she didnt know she herself was phoenix) to make himself the supreme being of creation by taking control of this process. Hence that picture i posted of Jean at the centre of creation and the abstracts bowing down before her and a phoenix enhanced Stranger.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I know its frustrating. You're in the same situation in Spectre debates lol.

Its so obvious that an aspect of God a part of him is inherently beyond a creation of God who cant act outside of his role. Except Spectre hasn't actually lost to anyone, ever that I can recall off of the top of my head , save Micheal bearing the word of god. And has feats far above anyone or anything imo. But I do see your point about people being clueless about the concept of these abstract aspects.



And if Pheonix indeed has been stated as tephireth an aspect of God, then it is indeed above all but other aspects.

Originally posted by Juntai
Except Spectre hasn't actually lost to anyone, ever, save Micheal bearing the word of god. And has feats far above anyone or anything imo. But I do see your point about people being clueless about the concept of these abstract aspects.

When you say Spectre hasnt lost to anyone what do you mean exactly?

Thanks GS. I thought so, I know its known for some time humanity will surpass abstracts. I knew Abstracts were evolved humanity of the last (like Eternity and...), but I didnt know its goes the same for LT. I just thought LT wasnt that like other abstracts.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Thanks GS. I thought so, I know its knows for some time humanity will surpass abstracts. I knew Abstracts were evolved humanity of the last (like Eternity and...), but I didnt know its goes the same for LT. I just thought LT wasnt that like other abstracts. This same principal also extends to Crossgen comics, as humanity eventually became "The First" and then completely forgot their past, which is why they were baffled when the Atlanteans, a race older than themselves awoke. I wish Crossgen was still around in force.. I think in time it could have took the #3 publisher spot as they had the highest quality art, stories, and their books HAD NO ADS.

I'm trying to stay out of this circular debate, but I can't. People still have a serious problem discerning between purpose and power around here.

A creation of God does not always have to be below an aspect of God.

That's incorrect.

A creation can be an equal in terms of power, it simply can not surpass. God could create something that had access to all of his abilities, not simply his creation aspect (like the Phoenix Force is).

Case in point being The Heart of The Universe, which was a creation.

Trying to downgrade Tribunal based soley on the fact he is a creation of God (TOAA) is faulty logic.

Jean Grey is also a creation of God (TOAA), and through her physical being she has access to the creation power of the TOAA, the "Phoenix Force".

LT is also a creation of God (TOAA), and through his physical being/M-Body, he is empowered by TOAA to have dominion over all creation until the time which TOAA deems fit to destroy creation and start anew. His power simply doesn't have a fancy name like "The Protector Force".

Both Phoenix and LT get their power from the same place. Only difference being their roles.

One creates existence and then destroys it.

The other protects the existence created until it is time for it to be destroyed.

People are reading too much into it.

And also, of that pic of LT and the other abstracts kneeling before Phoenix with the Stranger ice grillin in the back, that was not an actual event, that was simply a depiction of what could have happened if the Stranger's plans had come to fruition. If Stranger had taken control of the creation cycle through Phoenix, he could lord it over the abstracts and screw up the process to his liking. It's only a matter of interpretation that that picture somehow shows Phoenix's superiority to the other abstracts. You have to look at it in it's full context. What I see is that Stranger, by perverting Phoenix's powers, had the abstracts at his mercy because he could meddle with creation any way he sees fit. In the normal order of things, all the pieces work in harmony and fulfill their roles. This just shows what could happen if part of that cycle, albeit a MAJOR part, acted out of routine. If someone gained control of Living Tribunal's powers and went stupid with them you'd see all the abstracts kneeling before him too.

all of you need some good ol' country ass whoopin. especially that guy wit' the bird in flames. just how big of a boy are you?

Originally posted by illadelph12



Case in point being The Heart of The Universe, which was a creation.

How so?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Trying to downgrade Tribunal based soley on the fact he is a creation of God (TOAA) is faulty logic.

Not as faulty as placing LT above phoenix when they are shown to be peers at least. During the creation cycle their roles complement each other. LT intervening against multiversal threats while phoenix maintains the creation cycle as a whole. Its when the cycle draws to an end that LT's usefulness draws to a close and he is replaced in time for the next creation. As you can see from past hierarchy lists ive no problem with placing them on the same rung of the cosmic ladder. What i do have a problem with is people blindly positioning LT above when current continuity disagrees with that. Thats the point when i'll argue otherwise.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Jean Grey is also a creation of God (TOAA), and through her physical being she has access to the creation power of the TOAA, the "Phoenix Force".

Less a creation of god and more her being the form with which phoenix manifests in creation. That much at least was cleared up by New X-men and confirmed by Endsong.




Originally posted by illadelph12
And also, of that pic of LT and the other abstracts kneeling before Phoenix with the Stranger ice grillin in the back, that was not an actual event, that was simply a depiction of what could have happened if the Stranger's plans had come to fruition. If Stranger had taken control of the creation cycle through Phoenix, he could lord it over the abstracts and screw up the process to his liking. It's only a matter of interpretation that that picture somehow shows Phoenix's superiority to the other abstracts. You have to look at it in it's full context. What I see is that Stranger, by perverting Phoenix's powers, had the abstracts at his mercy because he could meddle with creation any way he sees fit. In the normal order of things, all the pieces work in harmony and fulfill their roles. This just shows what could happen if part of that cycle, albeit a MAJOR part, acted out of routine. If someone gained control of Living Tribunal's powers and went stupid with them you'd see all the abstracts kneeling before him too.

The replacement of the abstracts and Lt is a process which happens naturally anyway at the end of each creation cycle and is a process controlled and brought about by Phoenix. Stranger wanted to access Jeans power to speed up this process and bring about the end on his terms hence the picture i posted of what would happen if Stranger accessed the power. (i.e he would be supreme over all other beings in creation) With or without intervention the replacement happens anyway.

How so?

Wasn't the Heart of the Universe the device the Cellestials used to give Akhenaton his powers, and then Thanos used it and became basically one with TOAA's powers? And wasn't this basically a plot by TOAA in the first place?

Or did I interpret The End wrong?

Originally posted by illadelph12
How so?

Wasn't the Heart of the Universe the device the Cellestials used to give Akhenaton his powers, and then Thanos used it and became basically one with TOAA's powers? And wasn't this basically a plot by TOAA in the first place?

Or did I interpret The End wrong?

The HOTU was an energy source. That device helped them tap into it and distribute the power amongst the Order. Thats how i interpreted it. Anyone?

Maybe I need to read it again. I thought the device was the 'Heart', but it could be that the device simply allowed access to the power which was actually the 'Heart'.

Would that make the Heart another aspect?

Originally posted by illadelph12
with them you'd see all the abstracts kneeling before him too.

True for abstracts, but you wouldnt see Phoenix kneeling to LT. They showed Phoenix is beyond LT.

HOTU was energy source created by TOAA.

HOTU was just that, the HEART of creation, having the combined power of all the universes in the multiverse, it was beyond any abstract and beyond the tribunal himself{who is above all abstracts}, n thas why it destroyed the entire multiverse than recreated it{althought the recreation could be attributed to TOAA} anyway, it wasnt as powerful as TOAA

Question:

Is the Heart another "aspect" of TOAA like the "Phoenix Force" is supposed to be, or an energy source created by TOAA?


And:



I'm not so sure about that picture showing Phoenix is beyond LT. That picture can be interpreted many ways. You and GS see it as Phoenix being superior to everything. I see it as Stranger perverting the purpose of the Phoenix Force in creation to gain leverage over the other abstracts. Phoenix's purpose as the instrument used to create and destroy existence does not necessarily make it more powerful than something it is used to create. Logically, TOAA can never create anything greater than himself, but he can create something equal. And besides that, Phoenix is not the sum of TOAA, it's an aspect. TOAA could create something (using Phoenix) that embodies more than that one aspect of himself.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

I can use a screwdriver, power drill, a pair of pliars, 5 tons of steel, and a uranium rod to build a nuclear reactor. That doesn't make the tools I used more powerful than the creation, even if I could take the reactor apart with the same tools.

Oh, and before it's said (GS):

The premise that the abstracts are the evolved humans from the previous existence, and that when the creation cycle ends they will be "replaced" by the next evolved humanity, is really of no consequence. In the previous existence (where Galan/Galactus is from) there more than likely was a being that had the position Jean has, and after the cycle started again, the Phoenix Force connected to it's genetic avatar in this creation, which happened to be Jean Grey.

Remember, the process is cyclical.

Jean has not always existed. There were creations made and destroyed before her, and there will be creations made and destroyed after her, and some being from that creation will evolve into the mantle of the Phoenix in it and carry out the role.

It does not somehow diminish how powerful they (the Abstracts) are, or their purpose in existence. Jean simply evolves into the role of "avatar" of TOAA's power of creator and destroyer of creation, while some other being evolves into the role of "avatar" of TOAA's power of protection of this creation (Living Tribunal), and some other being evolves into the role of "avatar" of TOAA's substance of creation (Eternity), etc., etc.

Avatar, meaning incarnation, or physical manifestation, of God(s) , or an aspect of God.



(Online dictionaries rock. And avatar has way too many definitions nowadays).

With that said, I really hope Cyclops doesn't evolve into the Living Tribunal of the next creation. Having a supreme overseer that's always crying over Jean would suck.

Storm becoming Eternity would be cool, though.

Imagine living inside Halle Berry...

(Sorry, dirty joke)

Still end of day, PF=Holy Spirit, Lt=Jesus TOAA=God. PF is not stronger then LT because it cannot destroy LT because (god,father,TOAA) won't allow it. Same as LT cannot erase it from existence because of TOAA. It is crappy that x writers get to crap all over tryin to make PF move popular/powerful, FF4/silversurfer/warlock writers should have made a storyline to promote LT powers back to the top.

wasn't it speculated that franklin Richards takes over the role of galactus in the new reboot. Do you mean creations get promoted or humanity? because it would suck if only humans. Thanos would make a great new LT or PF avatar.

actually even right now franklin is way above full powered galactus, heck he even resurrected galactus

Franklin at full potential is Celestial level is definitely not as powerful as Galactus at full power.

thas bullshit, hes more than any damn celestial could ever be, he resurrected galactus when galactus had died n abraxas had emerged, he fn rid the multiverse of abraxas, do u think thas sumthin a celestial could do? hey not to mention the multiple universe creation without even realizin

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
IMO, there's a reason it's called Heart of the Universe. Thanos referred repeatedly to HIS REALITY, HIS UNIVERSE, etc. It's not power absolute across the multiversal spectrum. If so, Adam Warlock would not have appeared like he did. There was an ASPECT of the LT present, just as when there are issues elsewhere an ASPECT of the LT appears. There's nothing to suggest that the LT was completely destroyed. There is no 'aspect' of LT. LT is one entity, unlike Eternity and the other abstracts, which appear as alternate selves in other universes. So in summary, LT was destroyed.

Originally posted by Xplosive
True for abstracts, but you wouldnt see Phoenix kneeling to LT. They showed Phoenix is beyond LT. No, LT was not kneeling before the Phoenix...he and the abstracts were kneeling before the Stranger (note the cape). Don't be quick to take the pic out of context.

He created a pocket universe. There's a bit of a difference. Actually a huge difference. It's been stated over and over that he's Celestial level. Furthermore, I believe he's powerless right now anyway.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Maybe I need to read it again. I thought the device was the 'Heart', but it could be that the device simply allowed access to the power which was actually the 'Heart'.

Would that make the Heart another aspect? I believe the logical explanation behind the 'Heart' is that 'The End' was not canon.

Starlin certainly presented it as canon...but perhaps it wasn't meant to be...hence a plausible theory for Starlin's fallout with Marvel.

he created many parallel full sized universes and actually travelled through em, n he resurrected galactus too, no celestial can do that

He would not have resurrected Galactus without Valeria merging her powers with his. Eternity also played a role in this. Even after that he was left powerless. Kinda defeats your whole Franklin is currently above Galactus argument, doesn't it? His top feat is still the Heroes Reborn Universe.

Originally posted by illadelph12




I'm not so sure about that picture showing Phoenix is beyond LT. That picture can be interpreted many ways. You and GS see it as Phoenix being superior to everything. I see it as Stranger perverting the purpose of the Phoenix Force in creation to gain leverage over the other abstracts.

But surely the fact the power can be used to gain leverage over LT even when used outside of its natural purpose should tell you that it is. With the power being used to bring about the end of LT prematurely and on Strangers timetable one would think that LT would have jurisdiction to act as its against the natural order which its his job to maintain. The fact that he and the other abstracts were worried and acted to stop Stranger from gaining the power suggests that the power is beyond him. Either way while i and others believe that to be the case noone can doubt that theyre at least on the same level.


Originally posted by illadelph12

The premise that the abstracts are the evolved humans from the previous existence, and that when the creation cycle ends they will be "replaced" by the next evolved humanity, is really of no consequence. In the previous existence (where Galan/Galactus is from) there more than likely was a being that had the position Jean has, and after the cycle started again, the Phoenix Force connected to it's genetic avatar in this creation, which happened to be Jean Grey.

Remember, the process is cyclical.

Jean has not always existed. There were creations made and destroyed before her, and there will be creations made and destroyed after her, and some being from that creation will evolve into the mantle of the Phoenix in it and carry out the role.

See thats not quite right. Jean is literally Phoenix. The closest thing it has to human form. Thats what distinguishes her from the other phoenixes, the host bodies. She represents the Crown in creation and that is why she is the White Phoenix of Crown. Jean is and always has been Phoenix she just never knew it. Jean is just the form phoenix manifests itself into creation in. As such she is a constant throughout creation. For more complete information visit this thread :

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368313&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by illadelph12

It does not somehow diminish how powerful they (the Abstracts) are, or their purpose in existence. Jean simply evolves into the role of "avatar" of TOAA's power of creator and destroyer of creation, while some other being evolves into the role of "avatar" of TOAA's power of protection of this creation (Living Tribunal), and some other being evolves into the role of "avatar" of TOAA's substance of creation (Eternity), etc., etc.


True it doesnt diminish their power but it shows you that phoenix has a greater role in creation by being a constant throughout it.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Avatar, meaning incarnation, or physical manifestation, of God(s) , or an aspect of God.

Precisely. Although the difference between a primary and secondary avatar needs to be clarified. The primary being a direct phyical manifestation of the divine within creation whereas secondary refers to ones merely receiving the essence of the divine.





Originally posted by illadelph12
Imagine living inside Halle Berry...

(Sorry, dirty joke)

Whoa!! I like that thought Her or Beyonce

Originally posted by Lord S
There is no 'aspect' of LT. LT is one entity, unlike Eternity and the other abstracts, which appear as alternate selves in other universes. So in summary, LT was destroyed.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Lord S
No, LT was not kneeling before the Phoenix...he and the abstracts were kneeling before the Stranger (note the cape). Don't be quick to take the pic out of context.

Kneeling before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger with Jean as the central image highlighting her being the key to it all. So your point is?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
he created many parallel full sized universes and actually travelled through em, n he resurrected galactus too, no celestial can do that

He created pocket universes. Big difference Leon. There are some F4 fans among us so we know what you're saying hasnt been shown in the comics. Its actually stated within them and the handbooks that they were pocket universes and aslo that he has the potential to reach Celestial level so theres no debating this issue.