Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

My Lord of the Rings game- more precisely, a Middle Earth Role-Play game (Sauron, the literal LOTR, not really being the focus), is, inevitably, actually my brother's game. My brother has an encyclopaedic knowledge of things LOTR, right down to chruning out all those Sindarin spell names, which shows a certain dedication to mood that I could never be motivated to match.

A bit of a Third Age specialist (by far the most important of all of Tolkien's mythology), this knowledge of his has proven a very fertile ground for a wealth of Middle-Earth based stories that get away from the time of the films, which, after all, is a somewhat predictable time (unpike Star Wars, which leaves you a vast Galaxy in which anything can happen, Tolkien had a habit of rather nailing down what was going on in his world). In fact, the game system that this game uses has a 'past' setting by default, in fact several centuries earlier than this game is concerned with (my brother decided the 2000-ish setting was a better one).

The only problem with all this, is that whilst you have all the recognisable Lord of the Rings things- Men, Elves, Hobbits, Orcs, armies, evil things, Kingdoms concerned with their own affairs etc.- it;s still not exactly the setting that a lot of people are expecting.

Of course, some people are rather dedicated fans and also know the mythology, in which case it's not mysterious at all. Frankly, though, that wouild actially detract from your enjoyment of the game somewhat. You can spoil yourself silly if you wish but it won't actually help you play.

Nonetheless, to bridge the gap for those who, for example, thought the mvoies were neat and wantes to RP them but don't want to get bogged down in the interminable nature of LOTR's backstory to understand where they are, this thread exists to try and explain any discrepancies between the two setting, and field any questions you have.

I'll post a general Q&A first, and if anyone wants to ask questions after, feel free!

BAD GUYS


Q. Where the heck is Sauron then?

A. Dissipated and powerless. Much as Elrond moans about them not quite finishing the job, the victory of the West over Sauron at the end of the Second Age (as shown at the start of the FOTR film) was pretty much total. Not only was Sauron destroyed (almost), but pretty much the concept of darkness and evil took a slaughtering too.

In fact, the effect was so severe that for fully 1000 years after that battle, nothing that could actually be traced back to the 'powers of Darkness' actually happend at all. Oh, there were a few internal problems, and the Dunadain are periodically at war with the Easterlings, but nothing of sinister note.

Only after this time- a vast amount of time by any reckoning- did evil start to grow again. The Greenwood starts the long process of becoming the evil and twisted Mirkwood, and a few centuries later, the Witch-King turns up and begins his work, as talked about in-game. But even a thousand years after this return of 'evil', Sauron is still totally powerless. It will be five centuries yet before the Ring is found, and he starts to gain a little power, but it is still five centuries after THAT before the films begin, and even then, as we know, he never recovers full form.

Nonetheless, the return of evil coincided with the effective return of Sauron's 'will'. No-one knows it- not even the Wizards or the Elves- but the formless spirit of Sauron is slowly building up a grand plan, and his agents are at work. Ultimately, the darkness you face CAN now be tracked back to him. But for practical purposes, forget about Sauron.


Q. Well, DUH, that his agents are at work! The Witch-King is the Chief of the Nazgul! Isn't it rather obvious that Sauron is back when his Nine Best Buddies are at work?


A. Not at all. First of all, those who actually remember the Nazgul, who are few, know them as the Nine great Kings who were seduced by Sauron, became Wraiths and fought at their Master's side. They were all totalled at pretty much the same time Sauron was- without their Master they no power. It's not actually crossed anyone's mind that they might ever be seen again. Even if they were, not even Gandalf has seen one before. Only the greatest of the Elves could really make an identity like that simply be seeing him.

And the fact is, no-one HAS seen the Witch-King. He is myth and legend; Many believe he doesn't really exist, being more of a figurehead (the Arthedain royalty are fairly sure that Angmar's leadership has been consistent, however). Anyone who did see him has died, and even if they lived- a big guy in evil-looking armour twatting good guys left right and centre... he doesn't actually have "By the way, I'm a Nazgul" written on him.

It's going to be a terrible shock when Gandalf et al discover he IS a Nazgul, and it hasn't happened yet. All that is known that he is the Witch-King, and his activities in this time make him so notorious that even a thousand years after, he is still known as the Witch-King of Angmar, the only Nazgul with a true personality.

Ironically enough, the rumours he is a Black Numenorean who has learned sorcery are probably not far off- they just mistake what age he was born in. As for his eight buddies- there has never been any sign of them.


Q. So what is this plan of Sauron's then? What's the *****-Thing* up to?

A. I'll answer this purely because I can't see ho anyone would find out in-game, so it may as well be addressed here. As far as everyone is concerned, the Witch-King is a conquering tyrant- which is no bad thing for the bad guys in any case.

But actually, yes, the Witch-King does have a very simple mission- to destroy the Dunadain. The Elves are a fading people, and Sauron knows that only the power of the Dunadain will ever be able to stand against him, should he return. So he has tasked his greatest servant to wipe out that damn line of Kings descended from that bastard who took the Ring from him. Sauron knows how these things work; without the Line, there will be no threat- it's more mythical than logical, and it is how Middle-Earth works.


*Anyone remember my friend who tried to seduce Krisha and turned to the Dark Side in Star Wars, and who famously tired to escape an Agent in the Matrix by running onto the airport roof and had to be resuced by motorised ladder? That's his nickname for the Witch-King.


Q. Hang on... but there aren't any Kings by the time of the films, are there?

A. Eeek...


Q. So what happens to Arnor's throne? It's never mentioned in the films. And if there are no Kings, where does Aragorn come from?

A. Good questions. And at the heart of what this game is about. But in fact, the Arnorian throne IS obliquely referenced in the films. Well, in the TTT Extended Edition. Check it out.


Q. Ok, ok, enough of Sauron and Witch-Kings. What about the Orcs? If evil is so perished, where the heck are they coming from?

A. 'Evil' really accounts for Dark Lords, Nazguls, and stuff like the Wights who certainly should NOT be in the Barrow Downs. It also accounts for just a vague sense of 'stuff going wrong' in the world- kind of like the Force going out out of Balance in Star Wars.

Orcs, despite their evil origins, are thoroughly biological in nature and never went away. The mistake of thinking they had was made rather early, and an over-confident Isildur was killed by an Orc ambush, a number of years after he had thought them totally defeated.

However, Orcs are useless in any organisational sense- they can't lead themselves. They scattered and became disparate.

But when 'evil' returned, huge amounts of Orcs started to breed in the Misty Mountains. They form a realm known as 'Gundabad'. Its formation parallels that of Angmar, which it is right next to, and it can reasonably be assumed that the Witch-King set it all up. He is also their supreme commander. Gundabad itself, however, lasts all the way to the time of the films (and possibly beyond) and is the source of the Orcs Bilbo keeps running into in The Hobbit (the weaker breeds in the Mountains being known as Goblins).


Q. And the Dunlendings?

They are only very briefly seen in the films- being incited by Saruman- but they play a big part in the backstory. Their Homeland actually borders the south of Cardolan, and the barbarian problem they cause is a constant one all the way through the Third Age. They were a very specific problem indeed in the days of Arnor, having adopted Rhudaur as their second Kingdom. The Dunlendings are abnormal in that they are evil men, but a part of the main area of Middle Earth (unlike the Easterlings and Southrons seen in the films, who basically come from 'outisde' the important areas). They're just a good source of non-Orc bad guys, really.


Q. What the heck are the Wainriders?

A. In Tolkien's history, every so often one of the Easterling nations (who are always warring with each other for dominance) launch a huge invasion of the nations of Middle-Earth. Just before the timeframe of this game, the most recent such attack was from a faction of Easterlings called the 'Wainriders'- 'Wains' being chariots- and these Easterlings were modelled on a Hittite/Egyptian style mythology.

This invasion wiped out huge parts of Gondor and also the Eothraic tribes. But not long before the start of the campaign, Gondor finally halted them to the south and drove them out (the victorious General now the Gondorian King), and the tribes rebelled up north with such ferocity that they actually wiped out the invaders, for an encore going on to form the Eotheod.

As far as I know, you won't meet the Wainriders, they are simply a background detail for the Eotheod and Gondorians.

SETTING


Q. I am no expert, but I am pretty sure no alternative Human Kingdom, or the name 'Arnor', or anyone else that the Shire belonged too, was mentioned in the films.

A. Yup, no getting away from this one. When the Hobbits go through Bree in FOTR, there is no mention of it being a great Kingdom. Nor do the wilds Aragorn leads them through look very 'Dunadain-realmy'. Nor does Amon-Sul/Weathertop (where the Nazgul stab Frodo) look like the centre point of three mighty Realms. In fact... there doesn't seem to eb ANYTHING in that area by the time of the films.

So there is very little point in hiding the fact that Arnor does not exist by that time.


Q. So the bad guys win? Why the bloody hell am I bothering with all this then??!


A. Well, first of all, all my games here have predictable endings. The Sith are going to win in Star Wars, the truce in the war is going to happen in the Matrix, and yeah, you aren't going to destroy all evil in my LOTR game. The joy of the game comes in experiencing the setting, not messing up continuity. Setting the game in the past isn't done to make it unpredictable, but because it's just a more open setting.


But secondly- there's more to it than it looks.


Q. Actually... yeah. I mean, if the bad guys win, why is Bree still there? Why is the Shire still there? I don't remember seeing hordes of Dunlendings attacking Aragorn and co on the way to Rivendell, when that borders Rhudaur all the way! And why isn't the Witch-King still ruling from Angmar? Didn't he enjoy it?

A. Fair questions- again, at the heart of the game. But basically... as ever in all my games, despite whatever inevitable bad things may happen, there is a LOT of good work to be done.


Q. If the 'true' Dunadain throne belongs in Arnor, not Gondor, why is it the throne of Gondor they are talking about in the films?


A. Simple answer- practicality. More complex answer- it's kind of deliberate, but all this buggering around I have mentioned in-game of Arvedui trying to claim the Gondorian throne is kinda relevant- as is that bit in the extended TTT version I talked about earlier. Did you find it yet?


Q. No Sauron I can understand, but why is there no mention of Mordor? Why does Angmar get all the 'bad guy' press?

A. Again Mordor got pretty totalled at the end of the Second Age. Man and Elf alike purged as much as they could.

The one thing they couldn't seem to do, however, was to destroy the foundations of Barad-Dur itself (or Mount Doom for that matter). The whole land had the malaise of evil about it, and brought back very bad memories, so no-one ever actually did anything odd like move in there. It was abandoned, and it remains empty to this day. Probably a few unpleasant things live there, but Angmar is really the source of evil at this time.


Q. Hang on- are you saying that Sauron re-built his fortress, and several others, and formed entire armies there, without anyone noticing?


A. Ooooh, no... For a start, of course, we know by the time of the films that Gondor is mounting a 'watch' on Mordor, has an enormous fortress nearby it, and constantly works to stop it expanding. But don't think for one moment they just stopped and watched Orcs move back there and re-build in the first place.

As mentioned above, Sauron is working to a plan. This campaign focusses on Arnor- but don't think that Gondor doesn't get its turn.


Q. But through all this, the background setting for the Elves remain the same?

A. Yup- the Elves are conceptually timeless, and throughout the Third Age, their position never changes at all. What you see in the films is what you get in this time as well.

GOOD GUYS


Q. The Elves seemed pretty cool in the movies, but here they are almost heartless, perhaps even callous. Are they all different?

A. Not at all. It is easy to be distracted by the mood of the films, and watching Legolas prance around, but really, what did the Elves do? They offer sanctuary and advice, and the odd nifty item. ONE of their number goes with the Fellowship, and he's not even from one of the Havens, he's from the rather more active Elves of Mirkwood. And...

... well actually, and nothing. In the films, they send a few hundred Elves to Helm's Deep; in the books, not even that happens.

Elrond's sons actually go to help Aragorn in ROTK, along with Legolas' aid. But that was a personal decision for them- much as it is a personal decision for any Elvish players in this game to go and help others. Your rulers will by no means forbid you- but they make it very clear that they cannot get their nations involved.

And all this inactivity is in a time when Sauron is openly returned. In the time of this game, nothing is even approaching the scale of that problem- so it seems, anyway. The Elves feel even less need to get involved.

The role in this game of the Elves is the same- advice, guidance, sanctuary... but their time actually fighting Evil is past- the end of the Second Age was the 'Last' Alliance, after all. The Elves are few in number, and need to defend their own lands, and have already sacrificed much for a race of Men whi have squandered all opportunities.

However, I did have a few Elves vocalise a wish to fight during Part II of my game, just to note that the fate of Elf and Man isn't quite fully disentangled yet- and when Peter Jackson had Elves turn up at Helm's Deep, he might have been contradicting the books, but he wasn't quite contradicting the whole mythology.

Incidentally, the mysterious and alien nature of Galadriel and Lorien should not be ignored. That's a really freaky place and it has NO interest in aiding others- Galadriel didn't even come to the Last Alliance, and even Cirdan did that.


Q. Is Gondor pretty much the same? Why do they have a King? I thought Gondor had no Kings?


A. First of all, yes, Gondor had no Kings by the time of the films. But that wasn't because Isildur died- as I have explained in game, Isildur wasn't even taking Gondor's throne. The line died out much later than that, and although in-game the line has already become very much diminished, they still have Kings at this point in time.

I made a reference in-game to the Stewards. The Stewards are a hereditary line that aid the Kings of Gondor. When those Kings stop, the line of Stewards actually continue on, with a technical remit to wait for a King to return one day, but effectively actually becoming Kings themselves. Denethor, Boromir and Faramir, therefore, are descendants of the Stewards, not the Kings. This is why Boromir has that "We need no King" attitude in FOTR (and why Legloas is surprised that Boromir isn't waiting for one any more).

This relates to the TTT extended edition again, btw.

Other than that... Gondor is indeed almost identical. Minas Tirith isn't called Minas Tirith, and there are a few other cosmetic changes, but mostly the same. It used to be MUCH bigger, but since the great plague and the invasion of the Wainriders, it is now roughly the same size it is in the films.

There is nothing sinister about Gondor not helping Arnor. The Europe/America example I gave in game is valid. It's just too far and they don't care enough.


Q. And the Riders of Rohan are the 'Eotheod' are they? And live somewhere entirely different?

A. Yup. The reason why the Kingdom next to Gondor in the films is full of people so very very different is because they are in fact Northmen, of a particular horse-loving kind, that moved down from the North long ago. In fact, what happened is that they saved Gondor from another Easterling invasion (this time from an Easterling race known as the 'Balchoth', this time based on the ancient Chinese) and were basically given the land that became 'Rohan' at that point.

At this point in the game, none of that has happened yet. The Eotheod have only just stopped being scattered tribes, having rebelled against, and defeated, the Wainriders, and decided to form a nation. Their history basically starts here, but they have a big part to play in things, and much as they are tied to Gondor in LOTR, they build such ties with Arnor in the period of the game.

In fact, it's not entirely accurate to call them the 'Eotheod' at this point, as they are still in their transition point bewteen being the Eothraic Horse Tribes and the Eothian nation, but wre are so close as to make no difference, really. Just bear in mind that whenver I talk of the Eotheod, we are talking about a nation that is very much still forming- moving in, building settlements etc.

But in spirit they are the same- not great in number, but devestating warriors and horsemen.


Q. I suppose Gimli was a disproportionate view of the Dwarves like Legolas was of the Elves, was he?

A. Oddly enough, much less so. True, Dwarves appear to do bugger all in LOTR... but they do plenty in The Hobbit, which is more their story. In fact, the story of the Hobbit has Thorin trying to reclaim a lost Dwarven Kingdom. Similarly, Gimli's cousin Balin had recently tried to reclaim the lost Dwarven Kingdom of Khazad Dum (at Moria).

Basically, the difference here is that in these times... none of these Kingdoms are lost. Dwarves are VERY powerful indeed at this time! And due to Thorin's success (though dying in the process) in The Hobbit, the Dwarves fought tooth and nail against Sauron in the timescale of the books and films, it's just never seen (there are other battles going on up north, that the events in The Hobbit are a prequel to).

However, this change also affects what the Dwarves are like. Ever corrupted by the rings- don't forget that- the Dwarves are obsessed with making money and digging for gold, and if no-one bothers them they don't give a wet slap about ANYTHING else. The loss of their Kingdoms brought on a bit of humility by the time of the films- and yes, they are still pretty arrogant then, so imagine what they USED to be like!

That's the set-up here. Dwarves are very powerful but really don't give a tiny toss. Dwarvish players, of course, can be a little broader.


Q. And the Hobbits... they don't really count, do they? Wasn't the whole point of the films that they had never done anything before, so no-one had heard of them?

A. Yup... and no. Cop-out answer though that is, it's not inaccurate. Suffice to say that Hobbits do have a role worthy of actual mention in this time frame, but I won't pretend they are crucial.

That's me done. Ask any questions you like!

Alright..
This whole system of alliances and stuff is becoming more clear...

thx ush very useful

Galadriel, that *****!