Palpatine Vs. Mace - Lucas closes the debate for good!

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((The_Anomaly))
I just bought the DVD of ROTS (as im sure all of you did too)

and listing to the commentary by GL during the palpatine arrest scene he specifically says that Palpatine was faking and was not really beaten.

listen to it yourself, thanks GL for shutting up all the mace fanboys once and for all!

on another not he also ends the debate on whether or not Anakin actually beat Dooku fair and square. and he did. Anakin won because he was better then Dooku

its all there in the commentary by GL

thanks for finally putting an end to these debates! cause when it comes to SW, what GL says goes and he said it!

PVS
they forgot to ask him is palps face was melted or unmasked sad

Darth_Duffy
Happy Dance definately worthy of the dancing fruit

Sesse
We knew it all along! bunny bunny bunny bunny

Ushgarak
WRONG.

He says Palpatine was faking weakness AFTER the duel, during the Lightning part.

No-one ever disputed that. People were disputing whether Mace won the duel or not- which he clearly did. In fact, as GL says heonly put the 'Palpatine fake begging' part in afterwards as an afterthought, that clearly suggests he simply at first has Mace winning and Anakin stopping him.

So you can wipe those triumphant feelings away. I was actually waiting for the first person to come along and make a mistake by saying this.

Ast
He did end the debate about the balance of the force. big grin

DeVi| D0do
Originally posted by Ushgarak
WRONG.

He says Palpatine was faking weakness AFTER the duel, during the Lightning part.

No-one ever disputed that. People were disputing whether Mace won the duel or not- which he clearly did. In fact, as GL says heonly put the 'Palpatine fake begging' part in afterwards as an afterthought, that clearly suggests he simply at first has Mace winning and Anakin stopping him.

So you can wipe those triumphant feelings away. I was actually waiting for the first person to come along and make a mistake by saying this.
yes

But even though he didn't say it, it doesn't change what is explicitly shown on screen...

Ushgarak
Well, that argument has gone about as far as it can go. But the idea that GL has sorted it out is false.

Nactous
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I just bought the DVD of ROTS (as im sure all of you did too)

and listing to the commentary by GL during the palpatine arrest scene he specifically says that Palpatine was faking and was not really beaten.

listen to it yourself, thanks GL for shutting up all the mace fanboys once and for all!

on another not he also ends the debate on whether or not Anakin actually beat Dooku fair and square. and he did. Anakin won because he was better then Dooku

its all there in the commentary by GL

thanks for finally putting an end to these debates! cause when it comes to SW, what GL says goes and he said it!
Youve been gone for a while.

Nactous
No, this doesnt change the fact Mace could still be alive. big grin big grin

overlord
Yeah, of course Mace can just cling to something with one arm after being electrocuted and thrown into an abyss.
He's probably climbing to the surface of the city right now with his remaining arm! We'll see him again in episode 7!

Why does Lucas refuse to talk about this subject? RIGHT!! This IS proof of another trilogy! Muhahaha!! I've finally figured it out!!

Nactous
Dude, I hate you.

overlord
crybaby

JKozzy
Originally posted by Nactous
No, this doesnt change the fact Mace could still be alive. big grin big grin Mace... isn't alive. Stop trying to give everyone a hard time. You're amusing nobody but yourself messed

bobcrickett
This is why I hide in the RPG section. ninja

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Nactous
No, this doesnt change the fact Mace could still be alive. big grin big grin

You sound just like my cousin (mace=badass). www.starwars.com
I will use the argument I had prepared against him. He was dead before he even hit the ground, the lightning killed him.

He also thinks that Mace got plastic surgery and was actually Lando.

Darth Jello
one small detail i noticed in that duel on dvd...is it me? or do Mace's eyeballs explode just as he's about to be thrown out the window.

chinabing
That's why sooo many people die in Star Wars: the lack of railings. So many people fall to their deaths! Think of all the people who would have lived if not for a few safety railings:

Ep 1: Obi-Wan falls off the deck and can't get back in time to save Qui-Gon.

Ep 2: The dinosaur Jedi gets blasted over the railing, so it should have been higher.

Ep 3: Mace Windu falls out a window without a railing outside, surely against code.

Ep 4: Death Star Stormtroopers fall by Luke & Leia swing and at the hanger.

Ep 5: Bespin has railings, sure, but they lightsaber-through it, and hop over it, and finally jump!

Ep 6: They finally put some railings in, but Luke cuts through it, and then Vader throws someone over it! What good are railings if you throw people over them??

spencerspider
weird.. anyway dude Palpatine was faking. Did you see Yoda kick his ass? Do you think Mace can hop like that? Hell no! Mace is a weakling compared to Darth Vader (ep 3 before burning occurred) and Sidious and Yoda. Well not a weakling but he is weaker.

truejedi
I gotta agree with Ushgarak on this one. If Mace is so weak as to be manipulated throughout an entire fight to the death, how the heck did he get to be the #2 jedi in the galaxy anyway? If it makes me a "Mace fanboy" then it makes me one, but how can you not like a jedi with that much attitude thats still fighting for the right side? Why are so many people SOOOOOOOOo determined to prove that Windu was nothing?

SpyCspider
i agree with Ush as well...it just makes plot sense for Anakin be the one who turns the tide, thus completing his Dark Side transformation. I don't doubt Palpatine was faking when he was on the ground pleading for his life...that much is obvious. But the duel itself he was straight up doing it for real.

roughrider
For the love of God...

Palpatine was manipulating things throughout the Mace duel. He had to put himself in a position where, in front of Anakin, he appeared to be beaten and at the mercy of Mace. Palp's confidence in forseeing events was his knowledge that Anakin was on his way, he couldn't live with the thought of the Chancellor dying in a duel, taking knowledge with him to save Padme. He knew Mace wouldn't kill him while helpless - against the Jedi code - so he could force Anakin into a choice. When he finally pushes Anakin to save him by servering Mace's hand & lightsaber, it is this act for certain that pushes him to the Dark Side, after events like the Sandpeople slaughter, duel with A. Ventress, and executing Dooku were dangerous flirtations with the Dark Side. Anakin looks like a great weight is pulling him under after that, and he can't resist the Dark Side filling his being. Palpatine's plans for Anakin had finally bourne fruit; he had the weapon he wanted all along now. Mace never won the duel; he was another helpless pawn in Palp's scheme.

DeVi| D0do
Originally posted by roughrider
For the love of God...

Palpatine was manipulating things throughout the Mace duel. He had to put himself in a position where, in front of Anakin, he appeared to be beaten and at the mercy of Mace. Palp's confidence in forseeing events was his knowledge that Anakin was on his way, he couldn't live with the thought of the Chancellor dying in a duel, taking knowledge with him to save Padme. He knew Mace wouldn't kill him while helpless - against the Jedi code - so he could force Anakin into a choice. When he finally pushes Anakin to save him by servering Mace's hand & lightsaber, it is this act for certain that pushes him to the Dark Side, after events like the Sandpeople slaughter, duel with A. Ventress, and executing Dooku were dangerous flirtations with the Dark Side. Anakin looks like a great weight is pulling him under after that, and he can't resist the Dark Side filling his being. Palpatine's plans for Anakin had finally bourne fruit; he had the weapon he wanted all along now. Mace never won the duel; he was another helpless pawn in Palp's scheme.

Take out the reference to Ventress... then frame it and hang it above the welcoming mat. big grin

DiamondBullets
Why did Palpatine save Mace for last, and not one of the other 3 Jedi?

DeVi| D0do
Because we don't care about the other three Jedi, and Sammy asked for a good death...

CBright7831
Originally posted by jollyjim311
You sound just like my cousin (mace=badass). www.starwars.com
I will use the argument I had prepared against him. He was dead before he even hit the ground, the lightning killed him.

He also thinks that Mace got plastic surgery and was actually Lando.
eek!

That's a new one.

tlbauerle
Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Why did Palpatine save Mace for last, and not one of the other 3 Jedi?

Because it's Sam Jackson....

Council#13
Originally posted by Ushgarak
WRONG.

He says Palpatine was faking weakness AFTER the duel, during the Lightning part.

No-one ever disputed that. People were disputing whether Mace won the duel or not- which he clearly did. In fact, as GL says heonly put the 'Palpatine fake begging' part in afterwards as an afterthought, that clearly suggests he simply at first has Mace winning and Anakin stopping him.

So you can wipe those triumphant feelings away. I was actually waiting for the first person to come along and make a mistake by saying this.

Of course he was faking, have u ever seen a star wars character's acting so bad (and a lot of their acting skills are pretty bad e.g Hayden, Natalie, Samuel, Ewan, etc.)

Neo_Version 7
Dude, Ewan and Samuel weren't THAT bad.

BTW, Mace rocks.

Da preacher

chinabing
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
listening to the commentary by GL during the palpatine arrest scene he specifically says that Palpatine was faking and was not really beaten

I hate directors commentary. I've never listened to any of them. If a director has something to say, let him or her say it on the film. Where's the mystery? Every little thing does not have to be explained.

spencerspider
Mace could have easily been beaten but Sidious faked. End of story.

Ushgarak
No, it's not the end of the story. I don't think any rational analysis of the fight can say that it was faked- to do so would have been a risk dumb beyond belief; Sidious could easily have been killed. You can't just 'fake' losing a sabre fight- what if Windu's follow up blow to his kick had been a decapitation? It's absurd.

But that's not what this thread is about- it is about whether GL has cleared it up or not, Which he has not.

spencerspider
dude he knew what he was doing watch it again

Da preacher
Yeah, Palpatine was overconfident.
Focus only on Palpatine, u'll see.

roughrider
Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, it's not the end of the story. I don't think any rational analysis of the fight can say that it was faked- to do so would have been a risk dumb beyond belief; Sidious could easily have been killed. You can't just 'fake' losing a sabre fight- what if Windu's follow up blow to his kick had been a decapitation? It's absurd.

But that's not what this thread is about- it is about whether GL has cleared it up or not, Which he has not.


END. OF. STORY.

starwars

Da preacher
Seems the debate ain't really over.............

roughrider
Sigh...no, people will keep going in the face of logic, evidence, anything...

Da preacher
I know, it's sad.

Same with religion..............;

jollyjim311
I know what you mean, preacher, but save it for another day. Sidious faked it, it was evident to me, my brother, and my cousin (my cousin is an X-Treme Mace fanboy), there is just no way that Mace could beat Sidious.

Sesse
Sidious' first priority was to make the situation seem like the arrogant jedi master Mace was intimidating poor defenceless Palpatine who was praying for mercy. When Anakin noticed that mace was ready to bypass the jedi code to do what he felt was right, what else should Anakin have done? He felt it was right to keep Palpatine alive.

If Mace had just captured Palpatine, Anakin would have been happy and Luke would have been farmer for all his life.

palpy_666
The debate should be over. If one watches the Palp/Mace Duel with any common sense and any trace of intellect in their minds, then one would clearly see that Palpatine manipulated the entire situation to the point where he would "fake lose" his saber fight to appear vulnerable and weak to Anakin (Or else Palpatine would've slashed Mace right then and there with the other three JEDI MASTERS!!! Taking out three so quickly... Mace couldn't have been THAT much stronger than them!)

The sight of a weak old caucasian man about to be slaughtered by a bad ass Afro-American with a sweet purple saber is just heart wrenching, to say the least. Palpatine knew this and used it to his advantage. Everything was carefully and precisely planned then executed.

truejedi
Originally posted by roughrider
Sigh...no, people will keep going in the face of logic, evidence, anything...

and other people will keep making things up simply because they want to believe that Samuel Jackson was nothing. Where in the movie, i don't ask you for anything else. (if you want to listen to George's commentary it says that "Mace was always going to overpower palpatine" Not "be lulled into thinking he was beating palpatine, so he could be chopped up and fried later" He overpowered him. To use a favorite phrase from some of you Windu bashers: End of Story

roughrider
Riiigght...the number two Jedi was going to beat Palpatine, while the greatest Jedi ever could barely manage a stalemate.
Go back to the beginning of this thread and start again.

spencerspider
lol this end of story crap i made up got very far lol wow. I got one question. Did you watch episode 3? What happened when Anakin walked in. Sidious smiled. HE KNEW! It was planned. If you have any sense in your mind and you are not some Mace lover who can't except the fact that he was manipulated into thinking he had it won, you will see he could have been killed in seconds. My fav character is Anakin. I admit he could have killed Obi-Wan probably if he was not so overconfident, point is, he was and that was why he lost in the end. If you read the book Obi-Wan is saying that he is probably going to lose while he is fighting, he thinks Anakin is much stronger than him. But Obi-Wan was smarter leading to Anakin's defeat. I admit that because I am not so stupid to not see that Anakin was beaten because he was cocky.
As I like to say END OF STORY

DiamondBullets
Originally posted by tlbauerle
Because it's Sam Jackson....

Tru that. And just like in Jurassic Park, his arm got cut-off (coincidence??). Personally, I'd rather be slashed by a lightsaber than get thrown out of a fukking skyscraper.

Harrison Ford requested that Han Solo die in Return of the Jedi, but Lucas denied. So it's wierd that Lucas granted all of Jackson's requests...purple lightsaber, a memorable death, and what-not...

palpy_666
Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Tru that. And just like in Jurassic Park, his arm got cut-off (coincidence??). Personally, I'd rather be slashed by a lightsaber than get thrown out of a fukking skyscraper.

Harrison Ford requested that Han Solo die in Return of the Jedi, but Lucas denied. So it's wierd that Lucas granted all of Jackson's requests...purple lightsaber, a memorable death, and what-not...

That's because George Lucas didn't want to get sued by the NAACP or have the Black Panthers egging his zillion dollar mansion(s).

DiamondBullets
Originally posted by palpy_666
That's because George Lucas didn't want to get sued by the NAACP or have the Black Panthers egging his zillion dollar mansion(s).

Okaaay, any real explanations?

truejedi
Originally posted by spencerspider
lol this end of story crap i made up got very far lol wow. I got one question. Did you watch episode 3? What happened when Anakin walked in. Sidious smiled. HE KNEW! It was planned. If you have any sense in your mind and you are not some Mace lover who can't except the fact that he was manipulated into thinking he had it won, you will see he could have been killed in seconds. My fav character is Anakin. I admit he could have killed Obi-Wan probably if he was not so overconfident, point is, he was and that was why he lost in the end. If you read the book Obi-Wan is saying that he is probably going to lose while he is fighting, he thinks Anakin is much stronger than him. But Obi-Wan was smarter leading to Anakin's defeat. I admit that because I am not so stupid to not see that Anakin was beaten because he was cocky.
As I like to say END OF STORY
Your right. you have been right all along! I know when i'm beaten. That was so clever of Sidious to trick Mace into kicking that lightsaber out of his hand. He realized that if he held onto it much longer he was going to accidently stab Mace before he was ready. That sucker windu, falling for an old trick like that...
sorry if i'm being sarcastic, but all we have to look at is the movie, and in the movie, NOWHERE does it say that Palpatine faked losing.
Of course Sidous smiled, anakin was there to save him from being KILLED by the guy who beat him.
If you want to use the book as an example to anything, it makes it really clear that the empourer lost, and though it provides commentary on everything else, and nitty gritty details, it doesn't once mention sidious's great deception of mace. Plus, if you are going to use the book... you KNOW whats in there, and how i'm not even allowed to say the word VAPAAD without being ridiculed. Thats why you have to leave the book out of it, you can't just accept part of it.

overlord
Hello everyone.. Like Mace totally floored Sidious with Vaapad, like super duper. And our little friend Sidious used some sith version of Ataru wich is the SAME technique Yoda and Qui-Gon uses. And if someone feels the urge to ridicule this little SW concept then please waste your time here.
It's all killer cool to me. As I am an internet troll of course. thumb up

truejedi
Originally posted by overlord
Hello everyone.. Like Mace totally floored Sidious with Vaapad, like super duper. And our little friend Sidious used some sith version of Ataru wich is the SAME technique Yoda and Qui-Gon uses. And if someone feels the urge to ridicule this little SW concept then please waste your time here.
It's all killer cool to me. As I am an internet troll of course. thumb up

I like the books, i like EU, but be careful, i hear that its not considered real good to like that kind of thing around here. confused

spencerspider
um wow weird he smiled because his plan had worked, did you not see where sidious told grievous, i am about to have a far younger and more powerful apprentice on the hologram thing. HE KNEW! again. END OF STORY.

overlord

spencerspider
lol we will never settle this. I am sorry but we wont. Maybe Sidious faked maybe he was just beaten into the ground. I don't know, I am saying what I believe and so are yall. There is no fact even though we both would like one. But no one is gonna change what they think, it is what you think and will always be that way.

overlord
Originally posted by spencerspider
um wow weird he smiled because his plan had worked, did you not see where sidious told grievous, i am about to have a far younger and more powerful apprentice on the hologram thing. HE KNEW! again. END OF STORY.

Why did you quickly post? That's not fair.
Oh yeah? What plan?? He almost got killed if it wasn't for Anakin stepping in and stopping Mace.
As far as plans concerned Sidious only had his force lightning as trump card but it failed to his surpise.

darthsith19
Sadly enough I have heard no proof either way as of yet. But Anakin did beat Dooku fair and square. Sorgo will be pissed and will never buy it.

truejedi
Originally posted by overlord
Why did you quickly post? That's not fair.
Oh yeah? What plan?? He almost got killed if it wasn't for Anakin stepping in and stopping Mace.
As far as plans concerned Sidious only had his force lightning as trump card but it failed to his surpise.
I agree, but he's right you know, we aren't going to convince him if he doesn't want to hear it.

spencerspider
I am done here like my previous post stated, you will believe what you want to be truth and that is the final statement, (I have to say this one more time) END OF STORY lol

truejedi
Originally posted by darthsith19
Sadly enough I have heard no proof either way as of yet. But Anakin did beat Dooku fair and square. Sorgo will be pissed and will never buy it.
do we need proof to say that there isn't more to the movie than what the movie shows?
it would seem like some proof needs to exist in order to say that what was shown, i.e. mace pounding sidious, wasn't for real.

The book is proof if it can be accepted as evidence. Nowhere in it does it mention some master plan of sidious to lose to mace to sway anakin.
I would hate it if the book said that, but i would accept it. But IT DOESN'T
Of course Palpatine knew that he was going to get a new apprentice, anakin had already killed a helpless dooku, and the whole point of losing dooku was to turn anakin.

truejedi
Originally posted by spencerspider
I am done here like my previous post stated, you will believe what you want to be truth and that is the final statement, (I have to say this one more time) END OF STORY lol
agree to disagree, fair enough, unless someone else wants to actively debate this, i'm out too.

((The_Anomaly))
ok, Ush, I never said anything about the saber fight. I said that he was faking the whole thing.

did he lose the saber duel? possibly, but what GL says is that as soon as he loses his saber mace could have just threw mace out the window with little effort. it was all a ploy.

palpatine was NEVER in any danger he could have just force lightninged windu out the windu had anakin not showed up.

did he lose the saber fight fair and square? im inclined to believe he just underestimated mace and DID lose, but had he fought for his life (like he did against yoda) he would have been able to beat mace in a duel.

also he would have already known anakin was going to show up, so weather he lost the duel on purpose is still up for debate.

whats not up for debate is that palpatine could have wasted mace with the force at any point he wanted too.

truejedi
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
ok, Ush, I never said anything about the saber fight. I said that he was faking the whole thing.

did he lose the saber duel? possibly, but what GL says is that as soon as he loses his saber mace could have just threw mace out the window with little effort. it was all a ploy.

palpatine was NEVER in any danger he could have just force lightninged windu out the windu had anakin not showed up.

did he lose the saber fight fair and square? im inclined to believe he just underestimated mace and DID lose, but had he fought for his life (like he did against yoda) he would have been able to beat mace in a duel.

also he would have already known anakin was going to show up, so weather he lost the duel on purpose is still up for debate.

whats not up for debate is that palpatine could have wasted mace with the force at any point he wanted too.

so he was faking when the lightning melted him? its an idle question not a challenge of your entire post, i really don't feel like going there again.

Darth_Veav
Originally posted by truejedi
so he was faking when the lightning melted him? its an idle question not a challenge of your entire post, i really don't feel like going there again.

.....

Palpatine: I was attacked! Jedi are dangerous!
Senators: Your proof?
Palpatine: Well uh..uh..well...you see..uh...

He needed the lightning to melt his face to use it as evidence to convince the senators that Jedi's were taking over.

Also, I believe Sidious Faked It. If Anakin showed up seeing Sidious kicking Mace's ass, he would think Sidious is Evil. However he only saw Mace about to kill Sidious, Sidious NEEDED that to happen so Anakin will think that Jedi's are evil.

Sidious is a genius. The plan with killing all Jedi, Turning Anakin into Darth Vader, creating the empire, and the fake fight with mace Windu was one of them.

kevinmhk
this topic will never settle...
first i must say i am both Mace and Sidious' fans...

1. Sidious forsee Anakin will come
Possible, but why no one consider this:
Sidious could forsee he lose to Mace fairly and Anakin would
come and save him????
and why Sidious could not forsee his death? why cant he forsee
Yoda would fall???? etc etc

forseeing is not reliable in debate....

2. Sidious smile
this does NOT imply forseeing / faking:
Anakin come AFTER the Jedi Masters storm in =
Mace ordered Ani to stay back but he REFUSED,
I.E. Anakin actually had chosen his destiny ALREADY
Sidious is a politican, he knew how people think and act,
he knew ani would save him. but not implying he faked

((The_Anomaly))
Originally posted by truejedi
so he was faking when the lightning melted him? its an idle question not a challenge of your entire post, i really don't feel like going there again.

sorry, GL says he was faking it....its a closed case...

kevinmhk
GL said he was faking weak after the first round of Force Lightning.

GL & SLJ also said Mace is always overpowering / winning
the duel until Anakin stepped in and do wht he did do turn
the tide....

((The_Anomaly))
yes exactly, so he was faking being weak. he wasent weak, he could have at any time killed mace with his lightning, but didnt because he already knew anakin was coming etc. etc.

truejedi
Originally posted by kevinmhk
GL said he was faking weak after the first round of Force Lightning.

GL & SLJ also said Mace is always overpowering / winning
the duel until Anakin stepped in and do wht he did do turn
the tide....
I'm done with this, If you read my other posts, i have already put down exactly why i am right, and for the exact reasons i am hearing all over again. I'm not typing it all over again. Just one quick question, has there ever been a poll on if sidious was faking or not? starting one might help this debate.

((The_Anomaly))
this isn't an argument. GL says he was faking, so he was faking.

pretty sad that people try to now determine in what context palpatine WAS faking...

anything to keep arguing, even though what actually happened has been stated by the creator of the whole story.

roughrider
Originally posted by truejedi
Your right. you have been right all along! I know when i'm beaten. That was so clever of Sidious to trick Mace into kicking that lightsaber out of his hand. He realized that if he held onto it much longer he was going to accidently stab Mace before he was ready. That sucker windu, falling for an old trick like that...
sorry if i'm being sarcastic, but all we have to look at is the movie, and in the movie, NOWHERE does it say that Palpatine faked losing.
Of course Sidous smiled, anakin was there to save him from being KILLED by the guy who beat him.
If you want to use the book as an example to anything, it makes it really clear that the empourer lost, and though it provides commentary on everything else, and nitty gritty details, it doesn't once mention sidious's great deception of mace. Plus, if you are going to use the book... you KNOW whats in there, and how i'm not even allowed to say the word VAPAAD without being ridiculed. Thats why you have to leave the book out of it, you can't just accept part of it.

Like talking to a brick wall.
Did you notice how smiling and friendly Palpatine was when Mace and the other three Jedi came to arrest him, even though he knew that's exactly why they entered the room? Anakin told him he was turning him in, but Palpatine WASN'T worried. He knew he had Anakin on the line, and was slowly reeling him in. He was coming to make sure Palpatine wouldn't be killed, he could feel it; it was a game he played with Mace, an unwitting pawn, until Anakin arrived; he likely could feel how far away he was, until he allowed Mace to disarm him and appear to be at his mercy.
Too big a risk Palpatine was taking, you think? This man is a master manipulator, and has risked BIG for decades. Cloaking his Sith side right in full view of the Jedi Council for decades, manipulating events for inter-galactic civil war, to gain power. He wouldn't have revealed himself to Anakin at all unless he felt he had him, ready to turn with the right push. Goading him into attacking his master, to save what SEEMED to be a helpless man; Anakin thinking he's upholding the Jedi code but in that instant it's about his selfish desires he's killing for - Palpatine had forseen this; it was planned.

spencerspider
I'm back! lol well I see ya'll are going to continue and it is going to be one of the biggest mysteries in Star Wars ever

ArthasKnight
I think Palpatine was faking. He let Mace win the duel because he knew Anakin was coming and he needed to appear threatened by Mace so that Anakin would think that Mace was threatening a helpless opponent. Mission accomplished there; Anakin walked in at the right moment just as Palpatine knew he would. Palpatine's ability to foresee events makes him overconfident (as in ROTJ).

Now, about the lightning. What I think transpired was this. Palpatine had Anakin see what he wanted him to see, so he figured he'd finish Mace off. But it didn't work, Mace was deflecting it back onto Palpatine. He had to stop the lightning attack or he would have died; that he did not count on. He faked weakness even though he had much more power to throw at Mace, but he knew if he did he was toast (no pun intended).

Palpatine needed to appear helpless in order to move Anakin into action. Perfect opportunity here after the lightning attack. Mace is about to kill Palpatine, who supposedly has no strength left, and Anakin chops his hand off. Palpatine thinks at this moment, "I've got him!" and finishes Mace off like he intended to do before except this time Mace can't block it and is thrown out the window.

So I guess what I want to say is that the only thing Palpatine hadn't counted on was his Sith lightning not working on Mace. Everything else was under his control.

spencerspider
I got one question, how long did it take you to write that.

ArthasKnight
A couple of minutes. Why?

spencerspider
it was very long just wondering lol

JKozzy
Originally posted by ArthasKnight
I think Palpatine was faking. He let Mace win the duel because he knew Anakin was coming and he needed to appear threatened by Mace so that Anakin would think that Mace was threatening a helpless opponent. Mission accomplished there; Anakin walked in at the right moment just as Palpatine knew he would. Palpatine's ability to foresee events makes him overconfident (as in ROTJ).

Now, about the lightning. What I think transpired was this. Palpatine had Anakin see what he wanted him to see, so he figured he'd finish Mace off. But it didn't work, Mace was deflecting it back onto Palpatine. He had to stop the lightning attack or he would have died; that he did not count on. He faked weakness even though he had much more power to throw at Mace, but he knew if he did he was toast (no pun intended).

Palpatine needed to appear helpless in order to move Anakin into action. Perfect opportunity here after the lightning attack. Mace is about to kill Palpatine, who supposedly has no strength left, and Anakin chops his hand off. Palpatine thinks at this moment, "I've got him!" and finishes Mace off like he intended to do before except this time Mace can't block it and is thrown out the window.

So I guess what I want to say is that the only thing Palpatine hadn't counted on was his Sith lightning not working on Mace. Everything else was under his control. Saved me the typing. My thoughts exactly yes

roughrider
Re: Lightning deflected, melting his face? Maybe.
I still think it was his true appearence, being revealed through the lightning. See how his teeth were more old and rotten looking afterwards?
Lucas hasn't given the definitive answer on this - yet. Keep this going, he'll eventually say something.

Darth_Veav
The force lightning was needed to deform his face so he can convince the Senates that the Jedi were evil and were taking over. Otherwise, he would have no evidence that Jedi attacked.

freefly
IMHO Palpatine faked the whole thing (exept maybe losing his saber). Why? Because not only did he want to force Anakin's hand, but he had to crumple his own face as proof of the Jedi assasination attempt. Thus legitimising Order 66.

That is why he so stupidly unleashed the Sith lighting, knowing fully well it can be easily deflected. Heck his own apprentice Dooku got his lighting absorbed by Kenobi's saber and deflected by Yoda's bare hands on Geonosis. Shld'nt Palpy know better?

With the Sith lightning he managed to achieve two objectives. Make himself appear weak in Anakin's eyes and convince Mace, at that very moment, that he is "too dangerous to be kept alive". Thus changing Mace's mission from arrest to assasination. Thus the chop from Anakin.

So whether or not the ugly old frogy face is the real face, Palpy sets the whole scenario up to ensure that the majority of the Senate believes in his side of the story. Palpy FORESAW that things had to transpire in THIS FASHION and that's why things turned out THIS WAY

Council#13
Originally posted by Neo_Version 7
Dude, Ewan and Samuel weren't THAT bad.

BTW, Mace rocks.


Well, when Sam said "You have lost" that was pretty bad acting. I see you havent defended Hayden wink

Neo_Version 7
Originally posted by Council#13
Well, when Sam said "You have lost" that was pretty bad acting. I see you havent defended Hayden wink

yeah, that "You have lost" line was pretty chessy, but still. laughing out loud


Sorry, but I don't think Hayden did that good a job. Definitely better than AOTC though.

Council#13
Yeah I second that

chinabing
I thought Hayden's acting was good in AOTC, playing the lovestruck & Hamlet-esque kid whose life is torn inside out.

This thread is excellent, but I hate the posts that end with "End of Story." That's not a very good way to have a debate, and very poor form to your fellow posters.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
ok, Ush, I never said anything about the saber fight. I said that he was faking the whole thing.

did he lose the saber duel? possibly, but what GL says is that as soon as he loses his saber mace could have just threw mace out the window with little effort. it was all a ploy.

palpatine was NEVER in any danger he could have just force lightninged windu out the windu had anakin not showed up.

did he lose the saber fight fair and square? im inclined to believe he just underestimated mace and DID lose, but had he fought for his life (like he did against yoda) he would have been able to beat mace in a duel.

also he would have already known anakin was going to show up, so weather he lost the duel on purpose is still up for debate.

whats not up for debate is that palpatine could have wasted mace with the force at any point he wanted too.


If you weren't talking about the sabre fight, what the heck was the point of opening the thread? There was no other debate other than about the sabre fight.

In fact- as a thread called Palpatine vs.Mace rather suggests- you WERE talking about the fight and you are simply now trying to back out. Sad.

Anyway- having confirmed that GL has not cleared this up, and as this debate has been done to death in other threads... closed.

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