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So this is on the ballet here in California tommorow.

http://www.voterguide.ss.ca.gov/prop73/title_summary.shtml

Voting Yes on it will force minors to inform their parents before they can have an abortion. "No" will keep it as it is.

What do you guys think about this? Do you think minors should be forced to inform their parents before going through with it?

I'm kinda in the middle, myself. I can see points for and against it, though I'd probably vote no on it, just because I think if kids are forced to tell their parents then it raises the chances that the parents could talk them out of it or scare them out of it and really screw them up for life by making them have the child when they really shouldn't because of religious reasons or what have you.

Though, I won't be voting just because I'm like that. I have more important things to do like watch porn and play Counter - Strike.

I'm voting yes because we're talking about a minor. And a minor is the resposibility of the parent. So someone has to flip the bill for the abortion cost and is up to the parents to pay. Propositions are always split between yes and no. And as we all know certain issues require more than a yes or no answer.

Indeed, very true. This is one such occasion where I think the Yes or No thing is particularly difficult to generalize. There are so many circumstances that could counter either side of the issue.

I'm still against abortion. and in those rare situation when it is acceptable, I think parents should know.


and not voting. I'm not in states.

IMO no.. I think that the parents should know is their little angel has got pregnant but if the child doesn't want then to know there is nothing you can do.

even minors have privacy rights

in a perfect world i would vote "yes".

unfortunately a "yes" would certainly lead to more dangerous and illegal abortions and more newborn babies found in trashcans etc.

If parents had better communcations with their kids, it wouldn't be a problem for the daughters to go and talk to the parents....The problem is that the girls are afraid the parents would look down on them.....

YES

This is my opinion.

Hmmm I would probably vote yes. I am all for the teens having the privacy and all but thats alot of baggage to burden yourself with that MAYBE sharing with your parents might help.

Then you get those asscan parents that would berate their child and punish them even more........

I am all for healthy children however there needs to be a level of accountability as well for actions taken.

Originally posted by PVS
in a perfect world i would vote "yes".

unfortunately a "yes" would certainly lead to more dangerous and illegal abortions and more newborn babies found in trashcans etc.

what an horrific image that has left me with..

and i still vote no

I would vote "hell no!"

I would vote yes.

3 weeks ago, a 13 year old girl, all alone, gave birth to a boy, didn' t know which way to turn with her baby and dropped him from the thirteenth floor. All those months, she concealed her pregnancy from everyone and tried to hide her belly in every possible way. She laughed away questions about the increase of her weight.

Originally posted by Storm
I would vote yes.

3 weeks ago, a 13 year old girl, all alone, gave birth to a boy, didn' t know which way to turn with her baby and dropped him from the thirteenth floor. All those months, she concealed her pregnancy from everyone and tried to hide her belly in every possible way. She laughed away questions about the increase of her weight.

see now i agree with that.

If the question is Should minors tell parents about a abortion ? then i say yes.

but when the question is Should Parents know about a abortion even if it is against the childs wish's ? then i say no.

I think I would vote "yes".

It should be the Minors decision if she wants to get an abortion, but the parents should be informed.

Of course it won't work out that well since it's not a perfect world, but at least the Law should be that way.

Originally posted by jOHN_Anderton
I always knew LA LA land was called that for a reason, but it surprises me to see how you now have to wear shoes and tights just to vote! I mean, are you judged by with what style you dance over to your local precinct, how well you pirouette whilst waiting in line and with what flourish you register your vote?

Dude, it's ballot not ballet!

Dude, we got it way before that last sentence.

Originally posted by jOHN_Anderton
I always knew LA LA land was called that for a reason, but it surprises me to see how you now have to wear shoes and tights just to vote! I mean, are you judged by with what style you dance over to your local precinct, how well you pirouette whilst waiting in line and with what flourish you register your vote?

Dude, it's ballot not ballet!

Drop the chain saw (ooh, scary!) and read every once in a while eh? Esp before you f'ing vote!

*see! THIS is how the lowly likes of a bush gets into office! *

Oh yeah, I would vote "hell no!"



Try not to become an @sshole.

Parents should be informed.

But the shouldn't have any decision if the baby was kept or not. If the mother wants an abortion, she can have it.

i say no because kids will find illegal ways of doing it without telling their parents so i say keep it safe and do it the right way...

from a mothers point of view, i have to say yes. i would want to be informed if my daughter is going in for a medical procedure. no matter how sensitive the issue. unless she goes in to the emergency room and its life & death matter to remove the fetus...they should try to contact me. it would be that way in other cases of medical procedures. im responsible for my daughters well being.....and the cost of it.

Originally posted by Ms Flower
from a mothers point of view, i have to say yes. i would want to be informed if my daughter is going in for a medical procedure. no matter how sensitive the issue. unless she goes in to the emergency room and its life & death matter to remove the fetus...they should try to contact me. it would be that way in other cases of medical procedures. im responsible for my daughters well being.....and the cost of it.


Bam thats money right there!

EDIT

Off topic.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5373/owned1hy6ff.gif

In some instances, a parent or family member is responsible for the pregnancy. Victims of incest should not need parental permission to terminate such a pregnancy.

No

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In some instances, a parent or family member is responsible for the pregnancy. Victims of incest should not need parental permission to terminate such a pregnancy.

Yeah, this is one of the many examples that are cited when giving reasons against this.

Also, some parents really blow their top when told that their little girl is pregnant. My dad was telling me that he read a while back about a girl who's father beat her nearly to death after she told him that she was pregnant.

It depends on the circumstances. No issue is black and white. There are grey areas that require deep contemplation, assessment and fair action.

Originally posted by BackFire
Yeah, this is one of the many examples that are cited when giving reasons against this.

Also, some parents really blow their top when told that their little girl is pregnant. My dad was telling me that he read a while back about a girl who's father beat her nearly to death after she told him that she was pregnant.


So, she didn't need an abortion after that?

lol. Probably not.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In some instances, a parent or family member is responsible for the pregnancy. Victims of incest should not need parental permission to terminate such a pregnancy. true, I didnt think about this but there should be a way to find out...I dont know how...& maybe another family member could be contacted like a grandparent or aunt even a friend of the family...a 13, 14, 15 year old child shouldnt go through it alone...and certainly some counseling should be due afterwards.

Originally posted by Storm


3 weeks ago, a 13 year old girl, all alone, gave birth to a boy, didn' t know which way to turn with her baby and dropped him from the thirteenth floor.

That is very disturbing and horrible.

Originally posted by Storm
I would vote yes.

3 weeks ago, a 13 year old girl, all alone, gave birth to a boy, didn' t know which way to turn with her baby and dropped him from the thirteenth floor. All those months, she concealed her pregnancy from everyone and tried to hide her belly in every possible way. She laughed away questions about the increase of her weight. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation, but how would forcing a legal obligation on a minor to disclose to parents that they choose to have an abortion prevent something like this from occuring?

Though I can understand some of the abortion debate, I think some trusted relative should be informed that the girl chooses...Abortions can be dangerous...people can even die of complications...

Originally posted by Storm
I would vote yes.

3 weeks ago, a 13 year old girl, all alone, gave birth to a boy, didn' t know which way to turn with her baby and dropped him from the thirteenth floor. All those months, she concealed her pregnancy from everyone and tried to hide her belly in every possible way. She laughed away questions about the increase of her weight.

that is such a horrific story, i feel so sorry for people who think thats the only way to fix somethings is simply to get rid of them....
see now im a mother and i would never have an abortion its something i personally could never bring myself to do but if i thought that i just could not have a baby at all and there was no other way to get around it then yes i properly would........
and for people who think having a baby at a young such a young age is so bad think back into the 1800's women were married off and starting family with their much older husbands at as young of an age as 14

I say no, because if a child was too scared to tell their parents, they just might have their boyfriend bicycle-kick them in the stomach instead.

Yes that is possible, and yes it does work.

Which brings me to my little story:

Last year, in foods, I was sitting around three girls. One of them was talking about how she was pregnent and how she was too afraid to tell her parents. So she was talking about getting an aborition. But one of her friends decides to tell her "No, no, no need for an abortion, just get your boyfriend to bicycle-kick you in the stomach". After that I started laughing, because I made the assumption that this was a joke. But after awhile, I noticed that none of them were laughing along with the girl's proposal.

No, Like it has been said, People my age will do crazy shit to avoid parental approval. Not a good measure by any means...

EDIT

Off topic.

Edit

Off Topic.

omg jOHN...you need to chill. Even without banning your ass...BackFire could chew you up and spit you out like stale Lucky Charms. He made a typo, big deal. He got his point across and the thread was very clear. Your nitpicking 2 vowels...picking a fight with a well known and respected moderator....kinda silly....oh and the pretty words you put with a few pictures does not give you loyal ladies that will drop KMC should you get banned or decide to leave. I dont even know why Im saying anything...BackFire doesnt need me to stand up for him...thats just my 2 cents on this and Im a lady who wont be following you when you leave.

No, but if the girl is under the age of 16 or has injuries, the police should be informed, as they would be by any doctor.

EDIT

Off Topic.

EDIT, off topic

Originally posted by jOHN_Anderton
get my kicks pissing off Neanderthals like u and

BackFire, I never realized you were a Neanderthal! Man, you just never know about people, do ya?

wow John_Anderton you are so going to get banned

jOHN_Anderton I'm giving you a first and FINAL warning to drop it. Do not derail this thread again. Or you will be removed from the forums. Either stay on topic or stay out. Period!

Originally posted by BackFire
because I don't resort to trying to pick up girls on line that I somehow don't enjoy women


You go girl!

BackFire....are you bleeding.....*hands band aid*....OH, that's not you...It was a body snatcher.

I believe this was voted down today so no parents will not be told.

Originally posted by WindDancer
jOHN_Anderton I'm giving you a first and FINAL warning to drop it. Do not derail this thread again. Or you will be removed from the forums. Either stay on topic or stay out. Period!

*in his white lab coat, wearing a level A SCBA/SAR face mask and white PVC disposo gloves (double layered), jA walks to the incubator and carefully removes the petri dish labelled "KMC Moderators". he holds it up to the light to examine it closely then takes it to the stereo-microscope set up under the biological ventilation hood. peering through the x32 magnifier built into the face plate of his mask and using an 8 cm long, angled, thick walled glass transfer pipette w/a rubber bulb, jA locates and captures the amoeba named WindDancer, carefully transferring it and some of its broth into the deep well glass slide sitting on the temperature controlled microscope stage. removing his and finally sitting on the stool before the negative pressure hood, jA chooses the appropriate objective, adjusts the light source and peering into the eyepiece, carefully adjusts the focus to bring little WindDancer into crystal clear view*

"Oh my, it looks a little pale around the edges. Hmmm, I'll have to adjust the broth, it's looking a little anemic!"

*jA gets a chuckle out of how WindDancer has become an anemic amoeba, then pauses momentarily, repeating that term to himself and making some kind of mental note about how it has a rather surprisingly pleasant sounding ring to it. Then he hooks up the two fine wire leads coming from the output jack of the sound card of his pc, to the contacts embedded in the glass of the glass microscope slide and clips them into place. Speaking clearly and slowly into his pc's mic, jA begins. . . *

"Okay WindDancer , I'm not used to talking you amoeba's lie you, and I'm certainly not prepared to take 'orders' from your species either, but only because just now I want to be able to continue to interact with a couple of the members here I say to you "FINE" - I'll make all nicy nice and follwo your rules but just keep your own damn self in-line and don't let ME catch you being selective in the enforcement of your dumbass rules, or show favoritism to anyone, especially other "moderators" or I WILL leave this little dark nothing of a corner of a bigger nothing - and YOU and ur membership shall all be the worse for my leaving."

"I'm not doing anything wrong. you mods are just picking on me. you can't handle me because your minuscule minds just can't take it when genius enters your little world. the light i shine is intimidating and blinding and makes you cave dwellers and ur incestuous like-minded kiss ass followers scurry into the corners of this dank dungeon."

For I, am the Philosopher King, your ruler Zod and prophet Zarathustra and you, are my subjects. Bow before Zod, and He might allow you to remain in His presence for the time being.

You know it.

I know it.

And the American people know it.

Got it?

Good, not get!

btw: you have not the expertise, the sophistication nor the capability to "ban" me, even if you shut out THIS ip address, you neophyte. NOT that i would, but IF i so desired, i could resurface anytime i want, anywhere i want, as whomever i want.

in fact ~~~ the next time you find yourself nodding, maybe nearly napping, then suddenly there comes a tapping, as of someone gently rapping, rapping at your chamber door. "'tis some visitor," you may mutter, "tapping at my chamber door; Only this, and nothing more."

And the silken sad uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me---filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating,
" 'Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door,
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door.
This it is, and nothing more."

Credits: original story by jOHN Anderton; excerpts from The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe.

you are so gone

John.............NO!........you're out of line.

Hasta manana..............

Originally posted by WindDancer
jOHN_Anderton I'm giving you a first and FINAL warning to drop it. Do not derail this thread again. Or you will be removed from the forums. Either stay on topic or stay out. Period!

*in his white lab coat, wearing a level A SCBA/SAR face mask and white PVC disposo gloves (double layered), jA walks to the incubator and carefully removes the petri dish labelled "KMC Moderators". he holds it up to the light to examine it closely then takes it to the stereo-microscope set up under the biological ventilation hood. peering through the x32 magnifier built into the face plate of his mask and using an 8 cm long, angled, thick walled glass transfer pipette w/a rubber bulb, jA locates and captures the amoeba named WindDancer, carefully transferring it and some of its broth into the deep well glass slide sitting on the temperature controlled microscope stage. removing his and finally sitting on the stool before the negative pressure hood, jA chooses the appropriate objective, adjusts the light source and peering into the eyepiece, carefully adjusts the focus to bring little WindDancer into crystal clear view*

"Oh my, it looks a little pale around the edges. Hmmm, I'll have to adjust the broth, it's looking a little anemic!"

*jA gets a chuckle out of how WindDancer has become an anemic amoeba, then pauses momentarily, repeating that term to himself and making some kind of mental note about how it has a rather surprisingly pleasant sounding ring to it. Then he hooks up the two fine wire leads coming from the output jack of the sound card of his pc, to the contacts embedded in the glass of the glass microscope slide and clips them into place. Speaking clearly and slowly into his pc's mic, jA begins. . . *

"Okay WindDancer , I'm not used to talking you amoeba's lie you, and I'm certainly not prepared to take 'orders' from your species either, but only because just now I want to be able to continue to interact with a couple of the members here I say to you "FINE" - I'll make all nicy nice and follwo your rules but just keep your own damn self in-line and don't let ME catch you being selective in the enforcement of your dumbass rules, or show favoritism to anyone, especially other "moderators" or I WILL leave this little dark nothing of a corner of a bigger nothing - and YOU and ur membership shall all be the worse for my leaving."

"I'm not doing anything wrong. you mods are just picking on me. you can't handle me because your minuscule minds just can't take it when genius enters your little world. the light i shine is intimidating and blinding and makes you cave dwellers and ur incestuous like-minded kiss ass followers scurry into the corners of this dank dungeon."

For I, am the Philosopher King, your ruler Zod and prophet Zarathustra and you, are my subjects. Bow before Zod, and He might allow you to remain in His presence for the time being.

You know it.

I know it.

And the American people know it.

Got it?

Good, not get!

btw: you have not the expertise, the sophistication nor the capability to "ban" me, even if you shut out THIS ip address, you neophyte. NOT that i would, but IF i so desired, i could resurface anytime i want, anywhere i want, as whomever i want.

in fact ~~~ the next time you find yourself nodding, maybe nearly napping, then suddenly there comes a tapping, as of someone gently rapping, rapping at your chamber door. "'tis some visitor," you may mutter, "tapping at my chamber door; Only this, and nothing more."

And the silken sad uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me---filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating,
" 'Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door,
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door.
This it is, and nothing more."

Credits: original story by jOHN Anderton; excerpts from The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe.

Wow, you need sex...like RIGHT NOW!


What ever banned member you are, I wish I could say it's been a pleasure.

God another dissertation..........the only one truly impressed with you is you.........take your elitist double standard millionare arse and produce something of worth to the public that is so "beneath" you.

The only consistant thing I see from great people is their willingness to help others without degrading others to make themselves look better......how trite.

Restricted again there John......maybe you can learn from your mistakes...makes one Karma improve.....if you believe in it...

Haha, for someone who double posts after 15 minutes, misspells every second word and writes the worst stories ever to appear on the surface of this planet, you sure are a cocky person. Who actually beliefs that you are or can do what you claim, since you are banned I will tell you: No one (including yourself)...you, sir, are a poser. But since you obviously aren't as smart as you claim to be you'll probably not read that, so, whatever.

Originally posted by jOHN_Anderton
take a pill you knucklehead. and how dare u characterize me as a stalker. i'd say this is a clear cut case of abuse of power and ur responsibilities as a moderator should be immediately rescinded. as a representative of this web site u and/or those who appointed u hv certain legal responsibilities. you can't just make willy nilly accusations like u hv done, besmirching my character and assigning the worst possible motives to my activities here and expect to get away with it. what, do you think you are untouchable & unreachable? well, whatever your age it's time for you to learn something about the REAL world and the REAL responsibility one suffers when one assumes a legal title such as "Moderator" for a PUBLIC FORUM such as this! if a full, well thought out apology isn't posted here in due course, i will call for your immediate dismissal by those corporate parties who hv fiduciary responsibility for this public bulletin board. furthermore, i will hv my lawyers study whether legal precedent has been set regarding the award of compensatory monetary settlements for damages incurred wrt unjustified character assassination by those who hold a position such as yours and whether such putative damages can be attached to the proprietor's of this web site in addition to the perpetrator, or his parents or legal guardians should he not be considered liable as an adult and furthermore, whether they can be extended to anyone else who are his cohorts who post here in his defense such as is already in evidence herein.

u r a living joke that has no idea of what you've come up against and apparently suffers from the false belief that you are shielded and unreachable. WAKE UP CALL: fyi - i am not now nor hv i ever engaged in or encouraged or in any way agreed to or supported the practice of certain vicious, quasi legal tactics as may be utilized from time to time by the more unsavory among us, but do you realize that before you head hits your pillow tonight and before this day is done that your picture, your current street addy, your ss #, your police record, your high school and college grades and your most recent credit card purchases can be posted in this thread? and that there's nothing u could do to stop it should someone who is criminally predisposed and computer savvy wrt the use of proxy servers suddenly decide to do such a thing? i am saying this only because the tactics you are resorting to in your above unjustifiable name calling and character assassination reminds me of these unscrupulous kind of guys - all of which leads me to suspect perhaps YOU are one of these sorts and thus you probably wouldn't be surprised to see such a display about yourself in this way the next time you loggon, am i right?

so, wanna know why i hv so much time to waste here and for the time being anyways, get my kicks pissing off Neanderthals like u and the entourage of mindless pilot fish that suck up to you? it's because i'm bored, already made my 1st million and am working on my second and lovin every minute of it. it's because i despise mealy mouthed idiots like you and most other people in this overcrowded, dumbed down world and see it as my duty to put you in your place and remind you how you're nothing now and will be nothing when you die. you, will become a numberless statistic on a nonexistent list of nobodies who never might have existed and probably shouldn't hv been brought into this Earthly realm in the 1st place. you sir, are an aberration, an error, a mistake and a net sum gain whose equation solves to ZERO. i'm sure ur in for a rude awakening and that we may very well meet each other in court, should legal paperwork fly and take wing.

you just met your worst nightmare. so tell me killer, are you afraid?

you should be! anyways, you shall see for yourself killer diller.

*HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!*

I was undecided about abortion until i read this .... someone should have offered it to his mother

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In some instances, a parent or family member is responsible for the pregnancy. Victims of incest should not need parental permission to terminate such a pregnancy.

http://www.voterguide.ss.ca.gov/prop73/title_summary.shtml

it doesn't say that the parents permission is required for the abortion... just that they should be notified

Originally posted by Scoobless
I was undecided about abortion until i read this .... someone should have offered it to his mother

abortion might be a little strong....

now if someone informed her about the dangers of dropping acid while pregnant ....

restricted

sorry romeo

Disagreeing with abortion, Parents should be informed about their daughter's happening. A minor doesnt have the ability to rationalise as much as a parent especially in this case.

I think parents should be informed. After all, they should know what their little girl is doing behind their backs, if she's stupid enough to get herself pregnant. Way to go, bimbo-****...

Anyways, John Anderton's an idiot.

Originally posted by GCG
Disagreeing with abortion, Parents should be informed about their daughter's happening. A minor doesnt have the ability to rationalise as much as a parent especially in this case.

Considering a minor is anyone under legal age, I'd say that's a drastic call.

-AC

Originally posted by GCG
Disagreeing with abortion, Parents should be informed about their daughter's happening. A minor doesnt have the ability to rationalise as much as a parent especially in this case.

What about if a girl has a baby young, without consulting a parent.

Then during her second pregnancy she will be a parent already, and can use her new rationalisation skills to terminate the baby.

Now that would be a loophole innit ?

I meant responsable Parents against abortion who know and believe that life starts at conception not at birth.

Originally posted by GCG
Now that would be a loophole innit ?

I meant responsable Parents against abortion who know and believe that life starts at conception not at birth.

Life starts at conception?

I say we don't stop there.

Let's make masturbation a crime of genocide.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom

Let's make masturbation a crime of genocide.

Men and women ejaculate without masturbation. Is that a crime of genocide ?

But the moment an egg is fertilised, it begins its path into life.

masterbation is reckless abandonment of a child

lol

Originally posted by GCG
Men and women ejaculate without masturbation. Is that a crime of genocide ?

But the moment an egg is fertilised, it begins its path into life.

Yet it is nowhere close to being human. It's just some cells.

Originally posted by GCG
But the moment an egg is fertilised, it begins its path into life.

Keywords being path to.

A white belt karate student is beginning a path to being a black belt. They're not actually a black belt just because they could conceivably become one.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Yet it is nowhere close to being human. It's just some cells.

All humans have 46 chromosomes.

An egg has 23 and a sperm cell has 23. Once conjoined they have 46. Therofre yes I consider a human so at conception. Now thats my opinion like it or not.

Originally posted by GCG
All humans have 46 chromosomes.

An egg has 23 and a sperm cell has 23. Once conjoined they have 46. Therofre yes I consider a human so at conception. Now thats my opinion like it or not.

It being your opinion doesn't surround you in some ACME Nev-R-Rong shield. You're wrong.

You can consider it what you want, but the fact being that your considerations are false.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Keywords being path to.

A white belt karate student is beginning a path to being a black belt. They're not actually a black belt just because they could conceivably become one.

-AC

Of couurse you are right here. Now if i bring the abortion into the equation of your analogy, you dont become a black belt cause your sensei decided to amputate your leg and put you in a wheelchair for the rest of your life.

Originally posted by GCG
All humans have 46 chromosomes.

An egg has 23 and a sperm cell has 23. Once conjoined they have 46. Therofre yes I consider a human so at conception. Now thats my opinion like it or not.

That's what you call a syllogism.

All swans are white.

This bag is white.

This bag is a swan.

even after the moment of conception the heart doesnt begin to beat until day 17 into the beginning process...up till that point its just division and joining....not life....or I should say...not a baby.

Originally posted by GCG
Of couurse you are right here. Now if i bring the abortion into the equation of your analogy, you dont become a black belt cause your sensei decided to amputate your leg and put you in a wheelchair for the rest of your life.

Of course you don't. What's your point? (I know what your point is, but it's so laughably wrong that I'd like you to elaborate in the hope that you stop and go "Haha, silly me."

-AC

You tell me whats wrong with my point AC.

Originally posted by Ms Flower
even after the moment of conception the heart doesnt begin to beat until day 17 into the beginning process...up till that point its just division and joining....not life....or I should say...not a baby.

I am talking about life not heartbeats. Conception is the path to life. Once you halt the process of division you wont get a heart.

Originally posted by GCG
I am talking about life not heartbeats. Conception is the path to life. Once you halt the process of division you wont get a heart.

But you're not ending the life -- you're preventing it from beginning.

Originally posted by GCG
You tell me whats wrong with my point AC.

You took it upon yourself to change my analogy, you elaborate the point. The burden of proof is on you.

When you used the amputation analogy, what were you getting at? Oh, for excrement and laughter, let's just go with it.

There is a huge difference between a man purposefully sabotaging another man's life and career (bearing in mind he's already a human, already living, already having a life. Fact) and stopping a bunch of cells from becoming something that will become a child, for the better.

You are claiming to VALUE life but you are saying that ruining a man's life purposefully is equal to that of aborting cells to preserve another way of life.

Basically, you've cut your nose off to spite your face here.

Fact is, this whole debate is based around you CONSIDERING life to begin at conception. You are factually wrong there. So that puts an end to things.

-AC

Well anyway I thought that was a bad call, parents should be informed of the abortion that teens under their care have had done.

What is it really about your ideology on abortion ?

You want to make it look right to cease the development of life for what reasons ?

Originally posted by GCG
I am talking about life not heartbeats. Conception is the path to life. Once you halt the process of division you wont get a heart. i thought life and heartbeats go hand in hand

Originally posted by Lana
But you're not ending the life -- you're preventing it from beginning. exactly



and...the point Im making to is...back to the thread topic as there is already an abortion thread....its my right as a mom who is trying to protect her daughter. I should be notified if she is going in for an abortion which is medical procedure...hell, I would even pay to have it done considering all options and I thought it best....but as a minor Im responsible for...I should have some part in this.

Originally posted by GCG
What is it really about your ideology on abortion ?

You want to make it look right to cease the development of life for what reasons ?

What are you talking about? What do you mean why do I want to make abortion look right? It's not a matter of right and wrong, your inability to grasp this is the problem. You're too busy running around claiming "OH LIFE! LIFE!" without actually realising that the purpose of abortion is to make sure that a woman isn't forced into having a bad life by having an unwanted child and to make sure that the unwanted child isn't done the injustice of being brought into a world where it isn't wanted.

There will always be idiots who misuse abortion just like there are idiots who misuse drugs, alcohol, music, art...etc. What are we gonna do? Ban everything? If a woman wants to have an abortion, what you believe does not enter into it. If you disagree with her reasons for having it, fine. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to choose does it? No.

You personally choose to hold the belief that life begins at conception, therefore you believe that abortion is wrong. Life does not begin at conception, that is a fact. You are wrong, so therefore your views on abortion which you gained via your blinkered view, are also wrong.

More specifically on topic: There will always be mothers who have a view alike to GCG and therefore force their kids to needlessly have the children. This could be avoided if they aren't informed. Right? As long as parents are aware that it's about what's best for the person you are responsible for and not using this power to enforce your own beliefs, then yeah, inform.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What are you talking about? What do you mean why do I want to make abortion look right? It's not a matter of right and wrong, your inability to grasp this is the problem. You're too busy running around claiming "OH LIFE! LIFE!" without actually realising that the purpose of abortion is to make sure that a woman isn't forced into having a bad life by having an unwanted child and to make sure that the unwanted child isn't done the injustice of being brought into a world where it isn't wanted.

There will always be idiots who misuse abortion just like there are idiots who misuse drugs, alcohol, music, art...etc. What are we gonna do? Ban everything? If a woman wants to have an abortion, what you believe does not enter into it. If you disagree with her reasons for having it, fine. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to choose does it? No.

You personally choose to hold the belief that life begins at conception, therefore you believe that abortion is wrong. Life does not begin at conception, that is a fact. You are wrong, so therefore your views on abortion which you gained via your blinkered view, are also wrong.

More specifically on topic: There will always be mothers who have a view alike to GCG and therefore force their kids to needlessly have the children. This could be avoided if they aren't informed. Right? As long as parents are aware that it's about what's best for the person you are responsible for and not using this power to enforce your own beliefs, then yeah, inform.

-AC

WHAT THE **** are you trying to push on me ?

I am talking about careless people who first want sex and then dont take precautions to avoid pregnancy. They then want to avoid responsability with abortion.

The only way you may make it look right is if you bring RAPE into the situation ; and in that case you would have a leg to stand on siince you didnt grasp what i am aiming at.

If you forgot to put on a condom, its your fault.

If you forgot to take the pill, its your fault.

In the case of rape its not your fault.

Originally posted by Lana
But you're not ending the life -- you're preventing it from beginning.

From a genetic view, a new individual is created at fertilization. You prevent, when you use a contraceptive. How crystal could that possibly be ?

Originally posted by GCG
WHAT THE **** are you trying to push on me ?

I am talking about careless people who first want sex and then dont take precautions to avoid pregnancy. They then want to avoid responsability with abortion.

Read this part of my post, Albert:

"There will always be idiots who misuse abortion just like there are idiots who misuse drugs, alcohol, music, art...etc. What are we gonna do? Ban everything? If a woman wants to have an abortion, what you believe does not enter into it. If you disagree with her reasons for having it, fine. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to choose does it? No."

Moving on.

Originally posted by GCG
The only way you may make it look right is if you bring RAPE into the situation ; and in that case you would have a leg to stand on siince you didnt grasp what i am aiming at.

Whatever you were aiming at, clearly didn't hit the mark.

You are saying life begins at conception. You're wrong. End of story. Abortion is the woman's choice. Whether you or I agree with why she does it, it's none of our business. You are against abortion because you believe life/conception, which is false.

Originally posted by GCG
If you forgot to put on a condom, its your fault.

If you forgot to take the pill, its your fault.

Again:

"There will always be idiots who misuse abortion just like there are idiots who misuse drugs, alcohol, music, art...etc. What are we gonna do? Ban everything? If a woman wants to have an abortion, what you believe does not enter into it. If you disagree with her reasons for having it, fine. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to choose does it? No."

Third time is a charm, so they say. Don't make me repeat that again.

Originally posted by GCG
In the case of rape its not your fault.

Maybe she was wearing a short-skirt and exposing cleavage, it'd be her fault then wouldn't it? No. Why? Because why should she stop living the life she enjoys, how she enjoys it, because of assholes? She shouldn't. Just like a woman should be allowed an abortion if she chooses to. Don't stop her having one just because idiots misuse it. Even those idiots have a right to do what they want with their bodies.

Try understanding all I've said before you reply. Because I have a feeling you're one of those brick wall types.

-AC

AC, If you have a problem with me or what i am saying take it to PMs. I read what you posted and whole-heartedly disagree. Now if you dont accept it, fine with me.

You have a right to disagree. Dont try impose your 'flexibilty' upon me.

Originally posted by GCG
AC, If you have a problem with me or what i am saying take it to PMs. I read what you posted and whole-heartedly disagree. Now if you dont accept it, fine with me.

You have a right to disagree. Dont try impose your 'flexibilty' upon me.

What is it with this place? Seriously?

I'm debating with you. Don't try to debate back and then accuse me of attacking you when you can't reply. That's not cool, stop it. I'm not imposing anything on you, you're just stuck. But seeing as you won't admit it, I'll lay out my debate civilly and clearly for you.

You disagree, ok so why? You believe life is born at conception, correct? This is factually wrong. Moving on...

Your problem with abortion then, must be that people abuse that choice, right? Yes. You said so. To which I said, twice:

"There will always be idiots who misuse abortion just like there are idiots who misuse drugs, alcohol, music, art...etc. What are we gonna do? Ban everything? If a woman wants to have an abortion, what you believe does not enter into it. If you disagree with her reasons for having it, fine. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to choose does it? No."

So to reiterate, there will always be people who misuse privileges and rights. Does that mean we ban those things for all, even those who use them responsibly? Mistakes happen, rapes happen, unplanned pregnancy happens, it's not all down to being careless. IS there carelessness? Yes. Will there always be? Yes. These are not grounds for you to say abortion is wrong.

So why do you hold this stance?

-AC

You keep saying that i am wrong. Look here smart ass ; you find me some text-book stuff that says that i am wrong. The only thing you keep saying is that I am wrong. You are obviously suffering from Clue Deficit Disorder.

Can you tell what abortion means ? It means STOP.

To which you ask "Stop What" ?

*pats ac on the head*

And Teacher says to little AC "We Stop the life of a baby"

Now how crystal can that be ?

Originally posted by GCG
You keep saying that i am wrong. Look here smart ass ; you find me some text-book stuff that says that i am wrong. The only thing you keep saying is that I am wrong. You are obviously suffering from Clue Deficit Disorder.

Your claim: Life begins at conception.

You're claiming that as soon as life is an idea, it is real and justifiable. That is what you are claiming. You don't believe you are wrong? If I THINK of a foetus, it's not real is it? It's not alive. It's a concept.

If you mean life begins when the baby is conceived in womb, then you're also wrong. Anyone who went to school can tell you this. It's not my job to provide that proof, it's your school. They did a bad job evidently. There is a difference between a LIVING organism and having a LIFE/Quality of life.

Guess which one the foetus is?! A tree is alive. It doesn't have a life. A foetus may be ALIVE, it doesn't have a LIFE. It WOULD be, as you yourself stated, on the path to life. Which means, if it doesn't get there, it's not a life. Therefore, your love of life, your value of life, is inconsequential. There's no "life" involved. Do you see? Good. Let's continue...

Originally posted by GCG
Can you tell what abortion means ? It means STOP.

It actually means to end before completion. Hence the common phrase "Abort mission." Which I suggest you do.

Originally posted by GCG
To which you ask "Stop What" ?

And Teacher says to little AC "We Stop the life of a baby"

*pats ac on the head*

Now how crystal can that be ?

What life of what baby? The baby doesn't exist. For the baby to exist, the path to life (your words) has to be complete. The life isn't attained, hence why it's on the path TO.

To wrap this up, I'm gonna ask the question you keep dodging:

We've established that life doesn't begin at conception, your denial of it not included, this is fact. So, my question that I would like answered is this:

You dislike people who misuse abortion, cool. Fine. I'm not too fond of it either, just because it's lazy. However, why do you believe ALL women should have the choices taken away from what THEY do with THEIR bodies just because of:

A) Something you wrongly believe.

B) Some idiot misusing it.

Hmm?

Would you ban me from driving because a random man knocked you down?

Anything else?

-AC

Life begins at Conception. Genes Dammit ! Genes ! Once you Halt the development you stop it from growing hence you stop it from living.

What is it about the natural chain of events that you cannot grasp ?

You abort one link in the chain you automatically stop the whole process.

Originally posted by GCG
Life begins at Conception. Genes Dammit ! Genes ! Once you Halt the development you stop it from growing hence you stop it from living.

What is it about the natural chain of events that you cannot grasp ?

Life doesn't begin at conception, it doesn't. Stop it. Life does not begin at conception.

What I believe you are trying to say is, once the foetus is conceived, it is alive, correct? Fine.

A tree is alive also.

Your whole argument is that it's robbing a baby (non-existant at this point) of a life. You are confusing ALIVE with having a life.

A foetus is alive, it does not have a life. I have a life, you have a life. Every BORN human has a life. A foetus is not a born human, it's a bunch of living cells.

It is NOT robbing anything of a life. It's stopping the life from ever existing to preserve a human WITH a life already here. But as I said before, you're too busy child worshipping to notice that if you were actually pro-life, this is the stance you'd take. The preservation of lives in progress, not the deterioration of lives in favour of bringing another one in.

So my question AGAIN:

Why do you believe women should not be allowed to use abortions however they choose? It's none of your business. Why should something be banned because of idiots misusing it?

^^^ Answer this.

-AC

Just a quick piece for you AC there are 3 key periods in pregnancy.....

1st Trimester which you talk about frequently its not a fetus its an embryo till about week 12

2nd Trimester is now a fetus...weeks 13-27 now you can see it is human
but cannot live on its own

3rd Trimester still a fetus but from weeks 28 to delivery it can survive with medical attention....

anyway just a heads up for your bio there

I am not talking about being alive but about life. And I dont intend to subscribe to that. A wide spectrum of people consider it justifyable to dismiss zygotes, foetuses and any phase that YOU and ME have gone through to come into this world. I do not intent debating, as you want me to, to argue what other people want to do. Its inside them, so they do wtf they want.

My point is:

LIFE begins at Conception. Get that into your hard head. Ever heard of water being life ? Its a drop of water that doesnt have a life but IT IS LIFE. In fact that is how life on earth began in the first place.

You feel you have to touch to believe. Your views are purely materialistic. The Life is passed onto to you by your parents ; Your mother and your father gave you life when they had sex ( I hope you get a visual!)

Life gets handed over from generation to generation. If you break the link, you automatically abort life developing.

23 Chromosomes on their own dont make life. But 23 from a sperm cell and 23 from a ovary together combined and fertilised ARE THE BEGINNING of an individual.

Abortion is ultimatly the termination of an individual.

Now we can continue debating saying the same things cause you are no less of a brick wall as I am.

Originally posted by soleran30
Just a quick piece for you AC there are 3 key periods in pregnancy.....

1st Trimester which you talk about frequently its not a fetus its an embryo till about week 12

2nd Trimester is now a fetus...weeks 13-27 now you can see it is human
but cannot live on its own

3rd Trimester still a fetus but from weeks 28 to delivery it can survive with medical attention....

anyway just a heads up for your bio there

Yeah, because on ace-ing my science, I missed those. Haha, whew.

One question, because I am quite dumb. At what trimester does this foetus have a life? Not alive, a life. An actual life. Surviving without medical attention is a very anal technicality. But I am curious.

Indulge me.

-AC

Originally posted by GCG
I am not talking about being alive but about life. And I dont intend to subscribe to that. A wide spectrum of people consider it justifyable to dismiss zygotes, foetuses and any phase that YOU and ME have gone through to come into this world.

Yes I know you are talking about life. There is no life at conception. End of story. End...of...story. What are you not getting?

Originally posted by GCG
LIFE begins at Conception. Get that into your hard head. Ever heard of water being life ? Its a drop of water that doesnt have a life but IT IS LIFE. In fact that is how the earth began in the first place.

Someone's been watching a bit too much Mortal Kombat. Try paying attention to teachers rather than Robin Shou as Liu Kang.

BUT seriously, life does not begin at conception. It's seriously not up for debate. Becoming a living organism? Yes. Having a life? No. Sorry, no. It doesn't. It doesn't have what you and I have upon conception. You said it yourself, it's on the PATH to life.

Originally posted by GCG
You feel you have to touch to believe. Your views are purely materialistic. The Life is passed onto to you by your parents ; Your mother and your father gave you life when they had sex ( I hope you get a visual!)

Life gets handed over from generation to generation. If you break the link, you automatically abort life developing.

Right....sorry were you supposed to be refuting something of mine, within this?

Aborting life developing, exactly. Stopping it from becoming a life. It's alive, it's not a life. Abortion is to stop it becoming one. We agree, excellent.

Originally posted by GCG
23 Chromosomes on their own dont make life. But 23 from a sperm cell and 23 from a ovary together combined and fertilised ARE THE BEGINNING of an individual.

Abortion is ultimatly the termination of an individual.

"Abortion is ultimatly the termination of an individual".

Let me ask you something in light of that Fraggle Rock-level of naive, comment:

Do you value human lives, older and younger, equally?

Originally posted by GCG
Now we can continue debating saying the same things cause you are no less of a brick wall as I am.

The difference is that you are continuing, wrongly, spouting the same old BS out of pride whilst also dodging my questions and points with silly, unrealistic beliefs.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, because on ace-ing my science, I missed those. Haha, whew.

One question, because I am quite dumb. At what trimester does this foetus have a life? Not alive, a life. An actual life. Surviving without medical attention is a very anal technicality. But I am curious.

Indulge me.

-AC

1st save your sarcasm, thanks.

2nd I only showed you that not to argue against you merely to illustrate most abortions happen in the 1st and second trimester which means in the first trimester you shouldn't even call it a fetus but an embryo.

3rd if you REALLY want me to point out the answer to your question because you want to be a smart ass I can and ding ding the answer would be a typical preganancy of 9 months in a perfect world.

Originally posted by soleran30
2nd I only showed you that not to argue against you merely to illustrate most abortions happen in the 1st and second trimester which means in the first trimester you shouldn't even call it a fetus but an embryo.

Don't take the sarcasm to heart, it leads to all too many problems here.

True, it's an embryo. I used foetus out of force of habit. You are of course, correct.

Originally posted by soleran30
3rd if you REALLY want me to point out the answer to your question because you want to be a smart ass I can and ding ding the answer would be a typical preganancy of 9 months in a perfect world.

That would apply only to the moment of birth. Not any moment from it being conceived, to then.

Again, confusing alive with a life. An embryo does not have what you or I have. To attain this, it must be born. Without birth, it has no life.

-AC

yup and I am not really arguing about abortion I have my belief but as I have said I don't think my opinion is the end all for women......now as the topic said "underage" teens having an abortion should have a family member told.......

anyway this hole has gotten way to deep for me!

I do believe parents should be told. For the same reason abortion should be allowed.

There are some sad parents who will use their power over a minor to enforce their beliefs and make them have the kid. I don't, however, believe that the decent parents who WOULD opt for the best course of action (that obviously being abortion) regardless of their own beliefs, should be punished for the bad parents.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes I know you are talking about life. There is no life at conception. End of story. End...of...story. What are you not getting?



Life of an individual begins at conception. Get that into that thick head of yours.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Someone's been watching a bit too much Mortal Kombat. Try paying attention to teachers rather than Robin Shou as Liu Kang.

Clearly, you have lost your fingertip grip on reality and have descended into an abyss of irreversible lunacy. Dont mock me you ding-bat. I dont waste my time playing video games as you do.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


BUT seriously, life does not begin at conception. It's seriously not up for debate. Becoming a living organism? Yes. Having a life? No. Sorry, no. It doesn't. It doesn't have what you and I have upon conception. You said it yourself, it's on the PATH to life..

Jesus Mary and Jo Jo ! Finally !

We speak of Human life here. What you are saying is that preventing a tree from growing is no different from terminating life in an individual concepted at intercourse. And FYI, intercourse is there to handover life.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Right....sorry were you supposed to be refuting something of mine, within this?

Aborting life developing, exactly. Stopping it from becoming a life. It's alive, it's not a life. Abortion is to stop it becoming one. We agree, excellent...

Im not subscibing to that either. Dont come tell me we are agreeing when you feel like mocking. If you want to say something , say so clearly.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


"Abortion is ultimatly the termination of an individual".

Let me ask you something in light of that Fraggle Rock-level of naive, comment:

Do you value human lives, older and younger, equally?


Oh yeah right ; Stupid question to which i will answer NO.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


The difference is that you are continuing, wrongly, spouting the same old BS out of pride whilst also dodging my questions and points with silly, unrealistic beliefs.

-AC

Why do you even care what I think ? What is it to you ? Personal cyber pride ?

I took the liberty of cutting out the pointless insults you posted so as to focus on the topic .

Originally posted by GCG
Life of an individual begins at conception. Get that into that thick head of yours.

Excuse me sir, what seems to be your boggle?

Life does not begin at conception. Here's how it is:

When it's conceived, it's alive. It doesn't have a life, it's alive. YOU SAID YOURSELF that it's on the PATH to life. It does NOT have what you and I have, at conception. It has to be BORN for that.

Originally posted by GCG
Jesus Mary and Jo Jo ! Finally !

We speak of Human life here. What you are saying is that preventing a tree from growing is no different from terminating life in an individual concepted at intercourse. And FYI, intercourse is there to handover life.

No, we don't speak of HUMAN life. We speak of an organism being alive. To attain a "life" it must be born. Get that right before you even think of replying. Get on the path to having a clue, maybe. A few if you're being generous.

Originally posted by GCG
Im not subscibing to that either. Dont come tell me we are agreeing when you feel like mocking. If you want to say something , say so clearly.

We are agreeing though aren't we?

You: "Life gets handed over from generation to generation. If you break the link, you automatically abort life developing."

Exactly. If you break the link by aborting an embryo, you are stopping the development. If development isn't complete, it's not a life. We agree. You agree with my point. Therefore, you are agreeing that life doesn't begin at conception, because?!?!?! It doesn't, is the answer.

Originally posted by GCG
Oh yeah right ; Stupid question to which i will answer NO.

Well well well. Why is the answer no? Why do you not value human lives, adult and younger, the same?

-AC

one of the biggest arguments in the battle of pro choice vs. pro life is when life is actually created. Pro choice believe that it usually begins at birth, while pro life believes it begins at conception. There really is no right or wrong answer as far as the actual point of the beginning of life goes, because it is all based on opinion. There has never been a fact that states when life begins, and I think it will always be a debate as to when it actually does.

however in any case, it is against the law to have an abortion after the second trimester during the pregnancy... aka 6 months.

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
There really is no right or wrong answer as far as the actual point of the beginning of life goes, because it is all based on opinion. There has never been a fact that states when life begins, and I think it will always be a debate as to when it actually does.

It doesn't begin as soon as sperm hits egg. It doesn't begin at embryo level. No opinion about it really. Alive? Yes. Life? No.

Life is when you are born and live life on Earth. Not congealing in the womb. You have a life, I do, everyone else does (arguably). To put an embryo on our level is ridiculous.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It doesn't begin as soon as sperm hits egg. It doesn't begin at embryo level. No opinion about it really. Alive? Yes. Life? No.

Life is when you are born and live life on Earth. Not congealing in the womb.

-AC

I'm honestly not sure what I think about that.
But many people do believe that life begins at conception....theyre not right or wrong.... its just their opinion. I honestly think that this is a topic that will always remain opinion-based

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
I'm honestly not sure what I think about that.
But many people do believe that life begins at conception....theyre not right or wrong.... its just their opinion. I honestly think that this is a topic that will always remain opinion-based

No, they are wrong. Because what we have is a life, what an embryo has, isn't what we have, is it?

So no. It's not about opinion, and the sooner people stop hiding behind "Well it's my opinion" the sooner these issues will be resolved.

-AC

We'll as a slight wrap-up, It Did not pass here in California. No notification is required to have an abortion.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, they are wrong. Because what we have is a life, what an embryo has, isn't what we have, is it?

So no. It's not about opinion, and the sooner people stop hiding behind "Well it's my opinion" the sooner these issues will be resolved.

-AC

Honestly how you can say that is beyond me. There is no right or wrong answer, it really is all a matter of opinion, religious-based or otherwise. The sooner people stop refering to their opinion as 'right', or the only answer, the sooner these issues will be resolved

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
Honestly how you can say that is beyond me. There is no right or wrong answer, it really is all a matter of opinion, religious-based or otherwise. The sooner people stop refering to their opinion as 'right', or the only answer, the sooner these issues will be resolved

The reason why things will never be resolved is because of self-righteous people like you who think that the fastest way to resolution is agreeing with everyone. Saying that everyone isn't right or wrong doesn't make you right. It makes you wrong.

People who believe life begins at conception are wrong. There is nothing more to debate on that matter.

Stop hiding behind the cowardly opinion shield. If it was all about opinion, GCG would still have a credible argument. Given that his is in pieces due to factual info, I think you should reconsider.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The reason why things will never be resolved is because of self-righteous people like you who think that the fastest way to resolution is agreeing with everyone. Saying that everyone isn't right or wrong doesn't make you right. It makes you wrong.

People who believe life begins at conception are wrong. There is nothing more to debate on that matter.

Stop hiding behind the cowardly opinion shield. If it was all about opinion, GCG would still have a credible argument. Given that his is in pieces due to factual info, I think you should reconsider.

-AC

Honestly, look at what you just said. Youre picking out right and wrong? Who are you? Seriously. I'm glad you dont make any real decisions. I'm done arguing with you on this one, because there is no right or wrong answer, and honestly dont have the time, energy, or strength to argue with a brick wall.

Oh and by the way, those who listen to other's opinions are not cowards. Those who walk around with closed minds are cowards, because they are afraid of anything that challenges whatever 'opinion' they have of the world around them. And then they get defensive and jump down people's throats when they discuss anything otherwise. Sound familiar?

i never even stated my opinion on the matter, and you're already telling me to reconsider something you have no idea about.

Makes me wonder where does AC think opinions come from if not from literature, instruction and knowledge.

Please everyone, remember this thread is not about abortion in general, whether it's right or wrong or when life begins, the topic is more specific.

I believe there is a generalized abortion thread on the forum elsewhere, please use that to discuss abortion in general.

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
Honestly, look at what you just said. Youre picking out right and wrong? Who are you? Seriously. I'm glad you dont make any real decisions. I'm done arguing with you on this one, because there is no right or wrong answer, and honestly dont have the time, energy, or strength to argue with a brick wall.

You can continue telling yourself there is no right or wrong purely because you haven't got the salt to enter an abortion debate, but you are wrong and there's clearly no convincing you. So on we go.

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
Oh and by the way, those who listen to other's opinions are not cowards. Those who walk around with closed minds are cowards, because they are afraid of anything that challenges whatever 'opinion' they have of the world around them. And then they get defensive and jump down people's throats when they discuss anything otherwise. Sound familiar?

I'm not getting defensive because to do that I'd have to be under attack. I'm not afraid of anyone challenging my opinion. Nobody has yet, though. I challenged GCG's, yours....nothing back. You can believe what you want, however having an opinion doesn't mean you can't be wrong. In this case, you are.

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
i never even stated my opinion on the matter, and you're already telling me to reconsider something you have no idea about.

Life beginning at conception is what I was talking to you about. You are saying that there's no right or wrong for the sake of it, there clearly is a right and wrong. Not morally, but factually and scientifically. If you reply I'll copy your post and reply to the abortion thread.

Anyway, to move on with the topic:

Informing parents can be both a necessary and dangerous concept, as said before. I believe there are probably more responsible and selfless parents than there are oppressive nutcases, who would rather do what's best for their kid, not them.

It also, in my opinion, depends on the minor. If it's a really smart 17 year old, she's obviously gonna know what the best option is. He parent/s could still force her though.

-AC

If anyone should feel the need to reply to AC do so in the Official Abortion-Thread.

Yeah, backseat moderating FTW

Too bad that jOHN_Anteridiot dude can't help with the moderating.

Anderidiot.....haha...too funny..

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I'm not getting defensive because to do that I'd have to be under attack. I'm not afraid of anyone challenging my opinion. Nobody has yet, though. I challenged GCG's, yours....nothing back. You can believe what you want, however having an opinion doesn't mean you can't be wrong. In this case, you are.

-AC

So now all of sudden you u-turn on 'opinion'. Didnt you say that once we remove our opinions out of the way, we may to solve differences. You confuse me.

Originally posted by GCG
So now all of sudden you u-turn on 'opinion'. Didnt you say that once we remove our opinions out of the way, we may to solve differences. You confuse me.

I never said "When we move our opinions out of the way, we may to solve differences." No.

I said it's people like CurlUp who just agree with everyone because they can't be bothered to have an opinion of their own, who get in the way of resolution.

Either answer the question I asked earlier or don't reply to me. I'm not interested in anything else you have to say unless it concerns the topic. Thanks.

-AC

I say they should. Parents are responsible for keeping their kids safe.. and how do you expect them to keep them safe if they don't even have to be informed when their kid gets pregnant (obviously behind their back) and wants to have it terminated (also behind their back.) I don't think minors should be able to have any important medical procedures without their parents knowing about it. I mean hell.. kids can't even get a tattoo without their parents consent.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I say they should. Parents are responsible for keeping their kids safe.. and how do you expect them to keep them safe if they don't even have to be informed when their kid gets pregnant (obviously behind their back) and wants to have it terminated (also behind their back.)

To be fair, if the parents have done any kind of a decent job, these things won't happen.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Either answer the question I asked earlier or don't reply to me. I'm not interested in anything else you have to say unless it concerns the topic. Thanks.

-AC

So you want me to answer a question that has nothing to do with the topic and then you want to be on topic. How conflicting bozo.

Back-tracking ? OK.

I told you many times life of an individual begins at fertilisation. Thats called a genetic pov. Do you understand my opinion on this ? Would you like me to draw you a picture ?
You just like to Argue instead of having a decent Discussion. I suggest you learn some manners back at primary school before attempting to get intrigued into Secondary education.
How erroneous on your part when you deliberatly keep confusing the individuality on a human having rights with those individuals from a biological aspect.

If you wont understand that, i helpfully suggest that you support your local Search & Rescue Unit, and get lost.

And no. As i said before, i wont subscribe to your questions.

Originally posted by GCG
So you want me to answer a question that has nothing to do with the topic and then you want to be on topic. How conflicting bozo.

My question about value of lives, yes. Because your answer would have helped me understand your very flawed ideas.

Originally posted by GCG
Back-tracking ? OK.

Yes, backtracking to topic if you could stop insulting me for a second.

Originally posted by GCG
I told you many times life of an individual begins at fertilisation. Thats called a genetic pov. Do you understand my opinion on this ? Would you like me to draw you a picture ?
You just like to Argue instead of having a decent Discussion. I suggest you learn some manners back at primary school before attempting to get intrigued into Secondary education.

It's not even a damn individual at fertilisation, it's an egg! Jesus. I seriously, at this point, refuse to believe that you are being serious when you say that. No human aside from MAYBE Jackie Malfoy would ever say that in a serious manner, surely. "Life begins for an individual at fertilisation." It doesn't HAVE a life until it's born. Is it alive? Yes, after fertilisation. Does it HAVE a life? For the last time, NO.

YOU have a life, I have a life, every born human being has a life. Until you are born, you do not have one. You said it yourself and now YOU are the one who is back pedalling.

I'm trying to have a decent discussion but all you ever do here is go off topic by calling me names and that's just not needed is it?

Originally posted by GCG
How erroneous on your part when you deliberatly keep confusing the individuality on a human having rights with those individuals from a biological aspect.

It's not an individual because it's not a life until birth. Got it? Good. Move on.

Originally posted by GCG
If you wont understand that, i helpfully suggest that you support your local Search & Rescue Unit, and get lost.

And no. As i said before, i wont subscribe to your questions.

You don't have to "subscribe" to them. I want ONE question answered, because you didn't answer it in this post. So if you reply to one part of this post, make it this question. Unless you are afraid to look like a hypocrite:

You claim to value life (which I have since proved you have a blinkered view on) so I ask this, my friend.

Do you value human lives, both younger AND older, children AND adults, equally? Does a middle aged man matter as much as a 12 year old girl to you?

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
To be fair, if the parents have done any kind of a decent job, these things won't happen. I don't think that's really fair. Parents can do a good job and still end up with troubled kids... I'm sure there's more reasons for teen pregnancy than just the parent's incompetence. Either way, there's no use in hindering the parent's efforts even further.

Well to be fair, if you are any kind of decent parent, not only will you advise your child to have safe sex (which anyone will know, lowers the chances of pregnancy) if and when they do it, but you'll raise them to know not to go off sleeping with everyone.

-AC

Also, if you're a good parent then most likely the children will know well enough to tell you about it in the first place.

Originally posted by BackFire
Also, if you're a good parent then most likely the children will know well enough to tell you about it in the first place.

It takes a very good parent to raise a child like that.

In my opinoin i think that abortion is wrong because thats like your parents killing you

The parents should always know , but i think everybody was sick of Arnold and wanted him to look bad

Originally posted by GCG
It takes a very good parent to raise a child like that.

Doesn't the fact that you are saying "It takes a very good parent to raise a child like that" as if it's some rare or unattainable quality, bother you?

Exactly. It takes a very good parent to raise a child like that. Hence why the many pregnant, idiotic teenage mothers is a disturbing thing.

-AC

Originally posted by GCG
It takes a very good parent to raise a child like that.

When it comes to something as major as abortion and pregnancy I think children are more likely to tell their parents if they've been raised correctly.

Originally posted by BackFire
When it comes to something as major as abortion and pregnancy I think children are more likely to tell their parents if they've been raised correctly. Yeah most parents HATE hearing how awful they raised their child

well too bad for them lol

Originally posted by MMo
well too bad for them lol what do you mean by that ?????????

i mean well they should have raised their child better

Originally posted by MMo
i mean well they should have raised their child better o

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well to be fair, if you are any kind of decent parent, not only will you advise your child to have safe sex (which anyone will know, lowers the chances of pregnancy) if and when they do it, but you'll raise them to know not to go off sleeping with everyone.

-AC Of course.. but simply advising a kid to do something doesn't mean they will listen. Most of the time kids will think they know better than their parents and act foolishly even if their parents always told them to act a certain way.. I know that I did plenty of things my parents told me not to when I was younger... it's just a part of life. Plus you have to throw in the fact that a lot of teenagers have someone they feel is their "true love" and that makes it pretty likely for them to have sex with that person.. and once your having sex there's always a risk of pregnancy.

Well even the "true love" thing can be avoided if your child is smart enough.

It is just a state of mind.

-AC

Originally posted by BackFire
When it comes to something as major as abortion and pregnancy I think children are more likely to tell their parents if they've been raised correctly.

Of course. But the majority are not. Thats why there is a motion to enforce minors to have parents informed. Or why is it there in the first place ?

Well I guess.. but teaching your kid to avoid love isn't exactly the best parental advise in the world either. Pretty potentially damaging stuff.

I didn't say avoid love, I mean to be sure that it is love. Teaching your kids to think about whether it is love or just someone you like more than anyone else, as much of a long shot as it sounds, does work.

Though I do agree you can't account for a renegade kid. I think that's the point though. If you've got your parents respect and they've done a good enough job, the kid won't have any reason not to believe them.

-AC

I think that parents (or some type of guardian) should need to be informed.
Abortions are a big deal, and they're not only harmful mentally (in some cases, not all I'm sure) but also physically.

According to Cosmo, and I've no idea how reliable this article is, after every abortion, the chance of becoming pregnant once again is lowered each time,and it has some affect on your overall health.


Here's some other facts just purely about abortion (having read some of the earlier pages) I found interesting.....

When does the unborn baby's heart begin to beat?
The heartbeat begins between the eighteenth and twenty-fifth day.

When does the brain begin to function?
Electrical brain waves have been recorded as early as forty days.

How early can a baby survive outside the mother's womb?
Currently, twenty weeks is considered the accepted minimum. However, this time will be reduced as medical technology continues to improve."

Source

So then when is a baby truly alive?
Because without heart beating and brain function, it's just a mass of cells such as a cancerous tumour if you will, so by all means abortion can not be made illegal, unless you make cancer treatment illegal too

I read in a 70s Sunday Times Health book that three or more abortions significantly increase the chance of still birth and miscarriage later on, but the information was very non specific and now out of date.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I don't think that's really fair. Parents can do a good job and still end up with troubled kids... I'm sure there's more reasons for teen pregnancy than just the parent's incompetence. Either way, there's no use in hindering the parent's efforts even further.

Of course it's fair.

Troubled kids = bad job. Simple equation.

Barring some terrible unforeseen circumstances.

silver_tears, cancerous cells are responsable for deaths. I feel I am stressing long term consequences.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Of course it's fair.

Troubled kids = bad job. Simple equation.

Barring some terrible unforeseen circumstances. That sounds perfectly logical but in real life that's not the way things always work out.. good kids can come from dysfunctional families and bad kids can come from a "father of the year.." cause no matter how much you teach your kids right and wrong they are their own person and will make their own choices. Yes parents try to influence those choices but the kid is still more than just a reflection of their parent's parenting skills.. they have a mind of their own which is shaped from more than just what mom and dad tell them.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
That sounds perfectly logical but in real life that's not the way things always work out.. good kids can come from dysfunctional families and bad kids can come from a "father of the year.." cause no matter how much you teach your kids right and wrong they are their own person and will make their own choices. Yes parents try to influence those choices but the kid is still more than just a reflection of their parent's parenting skills.. they have a mind of their own which is shaped from more than just what mom and dad tell them.

Yeah but you're overlooking the fact that an extremely good parent that works to build a successful parent/child respect and relationship will more often than not, be the biggest influence on the child.

I was always free to make my own choices once I reached a certain age but I still took everything my parents said to me into consideration. Why? Because they treated me with respect, never oppressed me and as a result I have tremendous respect for them.

You're treating it as if no matter what the parents do, the kid is gonna have a clean slate again at a certain age, that's not the case.

-AC

Maybe the biggest influence on the child, but still never the only influence on the child. Even if an outside influence isn't as big as the parents, it can still be the deciding factor on certain decisions the kid makes. Plus the obvious fact that the kid does have his/her own mind and doesn't always decide based on influence.. sometimes it's just about what they want.

No I don't believe that the parenting isn't an influence to the kid at all I just don't think it's fair that if a kid makes bad choices then the only conclusion is that it's because the parents were incompetent. I think that's obviously a possibility but it's that doesn't mean it's the only conclusion. I don't know.. seems like too much of a generalization for me.