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Welcome to the Trials: Sidious and Dooku thread. Here, we will discuss which of whom is more powerful. The noble and talented Count Dooku of Serenno, or his master, the manipulating and enigmatic Sidious, aka Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine.

Throughout the versus threads, there is a schism between those who believe Sidious is stronger, such as myself, and those who disagree, such as Sorgo. I finally figured there ought to be a thread about it, as the argument has seeped into various other threads, which is partially credited to myself, unfortunately.

Now why would this not belong in the versus forum, you ask? Because, first and foremost, there are ways to defeat an opponent who is even more powerful than yourself, through the usage of 'quick thinking' or intellect. Such as Obi-Wan Kenobi against Anakin Skywalker. So, we are not comparing, necessarily, who would win in a duel, but who is more powerful.

Please, when you post, be sure to support your opinion with evidence. Do not simply state "Dooku/Sidious is more powerful than Dooku/Sidious."

Sidious -

Sidious has been identified, by the official website and Lucas himself, as the most powerful practitioner of the Dark Side in the movies. The site, even mentions him as the most powerful 'in modern times'. So, I guess it is without argument that Sidious is undoubtably the more powerful Sith. And yet even this is not enough to quell the non-believers who assume Dooku is stronger.

Many believe that Dooku is stronger simply because he bested Mace in times previous to The Phantom Menace, and Mace happened to defeat Sidious in Revenge of the Sith. Thusly, it is assumed, Dooku must be stronger. But is that really so ?

Both Dooku 'and' Mace would have had a lot of time to improve upon their skills. It isn't set in concrete that Dooku even progressed more. It is likely, considering that Dooku was already well on his way (if he had not already) mastered Makashi during this time. Now. The website isn't even specific on the terms of the defeat. As Nai or Faunus pointed out, Dooku and Windu could've sparred, and the score have been dead even, 5-5 - and the website 'still' could've worded that Dooku beat Mace, simply because he did, even in this instance. Dooku 'BEAT' Mace 5 times, and Mace beat Dooku five times as well.

Also, compare the fights. I will not argue that Mace didn't beat Sidious legitimately. But is that really how Sidious normally fights? Just with his saber ability? No. In the duel against Mace, he didn't use his Force powers until he was in a position that they could be negated by Mace's lightsaber. Would the fight have gone differently if Sidious used his Force powers (which we can assume is greater than Mace's own) ? Perhaps so.

But that is speculation.

So. We enter the only other duel that Sidious engaged in, which was the one where he fought Yoda in the Senate Arena. All of the known sources that we have, including the site and novels, indicate that the battle was a stalemate, with Sidious coming out the victor simply because his goals were realized. The website states that 'the Emperor was too powerful for Yoda to defeat'. Lucas didn't comment on the victor during the duel. He never indicated either beat the other.

But let us analyze:

Sidious is the only person in the PT to ever put Yoda significantly to the test. He is, in fact, the only enemy Yoda has faced in modern times that has actually landed an immense and significant blow to Yoda.

a) Sidious electrocuted Yoda with lightning shortly after Yoda defeated the Red Guard.

b) Sidious disarmed Yoda when they landed on the same pod.

The ROTS original script states that Yoda disarmed Sidious. Yet curiously enough, we never see it happen - and again - Lucas doesn't comment on it. The original script, of any movie, is only valid if the same scenes are depicted during the movie itself. Honestly. What good is a script that does not convey the same scenes that the movie does ? No good, in fact.

Now. Sidious simply could've de-activated the saber and switched to ranged assaults, considering that he was unable to find an advantage against Yoda in saber-to-saber battle. It is highly possible that this happened, considering that Sidious is a much more capable Force user than saber combatant.

As for the duel itself. We see Sidious flee when Yoda pushes him across the room. The blow is enough to make Sidious fear for his life, and he attempts to flee. His confidence is obviously bolstered. But 'fear' is a fickle thing. They say that dogs are at their most dangerous when they are cornered. Perhaps this is the same for Sidious. Simply because one has fear of another does not make them powerless.

When Sidious ignited his blade, Yoda flew into the air, over Sidious's head and lashed out twice. Both were blocked by Sidious. Yoda flipped against the chancellor's podium and went back over Sidious, landing in front of him. Sidious's blade was aimed at Yoda's. They both charged again. The stances of offensive and defensive past between both of them. A few times, Yoda lashed out with his blade, only to be parried or blocked by Sidious. Then, Sidious would lash out, and hit nothing but Yoda's blade, or air.

The fight proceeded to the Senate Arena. While they were on the Chancellor's pod, both moved about. Sidious started off in the seat, slashing about as Yoda avoided his blows. Yoda then landed and forced Sidious below, where he would try to strike at the Dark Lord, only to be blocked again, and the stances to be exchanged once more. As they rose, neither was besting the other. Yoda and Sidious kept exchanging the offensive and defensive positions regularly.

Sidious and Yoda also moved quicker. And, according to Lucas, it was 'designed' to be that way. Not because of a stuntman and CGI. Lucas purposely intended for this fight to be even quicker than the one against Dooku and Yoda, implying that both deeply desired to kill the other.

When we returned to the duel, Yoda was dodging pods left and right. Sidious was stationary on an activated pod, and was chucking, according to Lucas, 'handfuls' of pods at Yoda, who dodged and scrambled up all of them. Yoda had no real defense against Sidious, and tried desperately to return the battle to melee combat, igniting his saber twice. However. Sidious threw one of the pods, and Yoda caught it. He held it suspended in mid-air as Sidious cackled. Yoda then tossed it back. Sidious stood still for a moment, and inclined his head, and it finally registered that Yoda finally chucked one back. He jumped from the pod he was on, and fell to a pod several stories below.

He looked around for Yoda, who landed beside him on the pod's edge. Yoda gripped his saber and ignited it. Sidious reached an arm out and blasted the saber from his hands, sending it to the floor below. Sidious then blasted the lightning in a continuous flow. Yoda kept it at bay, but was forced to remain stationary. Sidious moved closer, only a few feet away from Yoda now. Sidious cackled evilly, and Yoda leaned back, pain and effort etched on his face.

But then, he turned back around and glared full of determination at Sidious, who saw what Yoda was going to do, and his eyes widened in fear and shock.

A blast ripped Yoda and Sidious apart. Sidious flipped over backwards, but caught the end of a pod. Yoda was sent flying down to the floor below. And as he moved to get up, he heard Sidious's devious cackle echo around the room.

Yoda knew then that he had failed. His saber was destroyed and it took immense effort to stop the lightning. He had no offensive Force powers, and no saber. In melee combat or in Force combat, the odds were stacked against him, so he fled.

Victor: A stalemate at best. But if one were to get technical, Sidious.

I really dont see how people could believe Dooku is stronger, Dooku pretty much admits it himself that Sidious is stronger in the ROTS novel and in Dark Rendevous.

Indeed. I could argue a lot on this:

a) Dooku NEVER disarmed Yoda, or even landed a blow on him, but Sidious did.

b) Dooku FEARED Sidious and was in AWE of him. Please cite the novels of Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil (both canon).

c) Dooku RARELY got the advantage during his saber duel with Yoda, even though Yoda had no desire to harm him; at least not on the level he did with Sidious.

d) Dooku is NOT the more powerful Sith.

e) Dooku tried to CONVERT Anakin to the Dark Side during the assault on Invisible Hand. Perhaps he needed Anakin to kill Sidious ?

---

In the Force, there's nothing that indicates the Count as being superior. He's not the stronger Sith. He's done nothing that Sidious hasn't done with the Force. And as for saber skills, I could see him being his slight superior or equal. But most around here deem it otherwise.

---

Conclusion: I myself believed Dooku was vastly superior to Sidious in saber dueling, and that Yoda was just the victim of bad luck. But my opinion has been changed, ever so slightly. Do I believe Sidious could beat Yoda any day of the week? HELL no. But do I believe he holds an EXCELLENT chance? Yes.

And do I believe Dooku is capable of defeating Sidious ? I sure do. Do remember. There are ways to defeat more powerful opponents. But do I think Sidious has a greater chance ? Yes.

DR and LoE are canon?

Point A through point D are all valid, though C is a little flakey, but E...well...Dooku knew that the plan was to convert Anakin, or something along those lines.

No such thing as luck, remember?

Originally posted by Escape81
Indeed. I could argue a lot on this:

a) Dooku NEVER disarmed Yoda, or even landed a blow on him, but Sidious did.

b) Dooku FEARED Sidious and was in AWE of him. Please cite the novels of Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil (both canon).

c) Dooku RARELY got the advantage during his saber duel with Yoda, even though Yoda had no desire to harm him; at least not on the level he did with Sidious.

d) Dooku is NOT the more powerful Sith.

e) Dooku tried to CONVERT Anakin to the Dark Side during the assault on Invisible Hand. Perhaps he needed Anakin to kill Sidious ?

---

In the Force, there's nothing that indicates the Count as being superior. He's not the stronger Sith. He's done nothing that Sidious hasn't done with the Force. And as for saber skills, I could see him being his slight superior or equal. But most around here deem it otherwise.

---

Conclusion: I myself believed Dooku was vastly superior to Sidious in saber dueling, and that Yoda was just the victim of bad luck. But my opinion has been changed, ever so slightly. Do I believe Sidious could beat Yoda any day of the week? HELL no. But do I believe he holds an EXCELLENT chance? Yes.

And do I believe Dooku is capable of defeating Sidious ? I sure do. Do remember. There are ways to defeat more powerful opponents. But do I think Sidious has a greater chance ? Yes.

Lol your good man, Im learning alot from your technique.

Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious -

Sidious has been identified, by the official website and Lucas himself, as the most powerful practitioner of the Dark Side in the movies. The site, even mentions him as the most powerful 'in modern times'. So, I guess it is without argument that Sidious is undoubtably the more powerful Sith. And yet even this is not enough to quell the non-believers who assume Dooku is stronger.

Although the Databank can be incorrect or misleading at times, Sidious is the most Dark side practitioner of his time, but this will not make him more powerful than Dooku.

Because: There is a divine between the most power user of the Dark side and the most power user of the Force itself.

Sure Sidious was a Dark side master, but does this truly make him stronger in the Force than Dooku? No.

Many believe that Dooku is stronger simply because he bested Mace in times previous to The Phantom Menace, and Mace happened to defeat Sidious in Revenge of the Sith. Thusly, it is assumed, Dooku must be stronger. But is that really so ?

Many believe that Sidious is stronger simply because he beholds the rank of "Master" and Dooku holds the Rank of "Apprentice". In time we have seen that the Apprentice will sooner or later pass the Master in power or try to take over, but it was somewhat different in Sidious and Dooku's situation?

Both Dooku 'and' Mace would have had a lot of time to improve upon their skills. It isn't set in concrete that Dooku even progressed more. It is likely, considering that Dooku was already well on his way (if he had not already) mastered Makashi during this time. Now. The website isn't even specific on the terms of the defeat. As Nai or Faunus pointed out, Dooku and Windu could've sparred, and the score have been dead even, 5-5 - and the website 'still' could've worded that Dooku beat Mace, simply because he did, even in this instance. Dooku 'BEAT' Mace 5 times, and Mace beat Dooku five times as well.

Hmm... Alot of people assume that because Mace was younger and more able, he may have surpassed Dooku because apparently, he is younger and has a bigger Margin to gain Experience. HUH?

Dooku still remains to have three decades of Experience over Mace, new found darkened powers and probably a deadly new Experience with Makashi, considering he does not have to hold his emotions back with the Form any longer. Why would the Database say that Dooku won if they tied during the fight? Doesn't make clear sense at all.

Also, compare the fights. I will not argue that Mace didn't beat Sidious legitimately. But is that really how Sidious normally fights? Just with his saber ability? No. In the duel against Mace, he didn't use his Force powers until he was in a position that they could be negated by Mace's lightsaber. Would the fight have gone differently if Sidious used his Force powers (which we can assume is greater than Mace's own) ? Perhaps so.


Don't need to reply. Not here to talk of Mace.

But that is speculation.

Sidious has been identified, by the official website and Lucas himself, as the most powerful practitioner of the Dark Side in the movies. The site, even mentions him as the most powerful 'in modern times'. So, I guess it is without argument that Sidious is undoubtably the more powerful Sith. And yet even this is not enough to quell the non-believers who assume Dooku is stronger.

Although the Databank can be incorrect or misleading at times, Sidious is the most Dark side practitioner of his time, but this will not make him more powerful than Dooku.

Because: There is a divine between the most power user of the Dark side and the most power user of the Force itself.

Sure Sidious was a Dark side master, but does this truly make him stronger in the Force than Dooku? No.

Many believe that Dooku is stronger simply because he bested Mace in times previous to The Phantom Menace, and Mace happened to defeat Sidious in Revenge of the Sith. Thusly, it is assumed, Dooku must be stronger. But is that really so ?

Many believe that Sidious is stronger simply because he beholds the rank of "Master" and Dooku holds the Rank of "Apprentice". In time we have seen that the Apprentice will sooner or later pass the Master in power or try to take over, but it was somewhat different in Sidious and Dooku's situation?

Both Dooku 'and' Mace would have had a lot of time to improve upon their skills. It isn't set in concrete that Dooku even progressed more. It is likely, considering that Dooku was already well on his way (if he had not already) mastered Makashi during this time. Now. The website isn't even specific on the terms of the defeat. As Nai or Faunus pointed out, Dooku and Windu could've sparred, and the score have been dead even, 5-5 - and the website 'still' could've worded that Dooku beat Mace, simply because he did, even in this instance. Dooku 'BEAT' Mace 5 times, and Mace beat Dooku five times as well.

Hmm... Alot of people assume that because Mace was younger and more able, he may have surpassed Dooku because apparently, he is younger and has a bigger Margin to gain Experience. HUH?

Dooku still remains to have three decades of Experience over Mace, new found darkened powers and probably a deadly new Experience with Makashi, considering he does not have to hold his emotions back with the Form any longer. Why would the Database say that Dooku won if they tied during the fight? Doesn't make clear sense at all.

Also, compare the fights. I will not argue that Mace didn't beat Sidious legitimately. But is that really how Sidious normally fights? Just with his saber ability? No. In the duel against Mace, he didn't use his Force powers until he was in a position that they could be negated by Mace's lightsaber. Would the fight have gone differently if Sidious used his Force powers (which we can assume is greater than Mace's own) ? Perhaps so.


Don't need to reply. Not here to talk of Mace.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I really dont see how people could believe Dooku is stronger, Dooku pretty much admits it himself that Sidious is stronger in the ROTS novel and in Dark Rendevous.

Novels? Disregarded. Especially the ROTS Novel.

a) Dooku NEVER disarmed Yoda, or even landed a blow on him, but Sidious did.

Dooku would wipe the floor with Kenobi. Anakin killed Dooku, yet Kenobi killed Anakin.

Different opponents fight differently with each other. Saying that just because Yoda beat Sidious and Dooku didn't means that Sidious could defeat Dooku is overboard with ridiculous favor. I disregard A.

b) Dooku FEARED Sidious and was in AWE of him. Please cite the novels of Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil (both canon).

Novels are not Canon. Either way, Sidious still feared Dooku snatching his position.

Dooku RARELY got the advantage during his saber duel with Yoda, even though Yoda had no desire to harm him; at least not on the level he did with Sidious.

No proof that Yoda didn't want Dooku dead. Yoda was grunting and try to get past Dooku's defense.

d) Dooku is NOT the more powerful Sith.

But he is the better Lightsaber duelist and possibly the better Force User.

e) Dooku tried to CONVERT Anakin to the Dark Side during the assault on Invisible Hand. Perhaps he needed Anakin to kill Sidious ?

Perhaps Sidious needed Anakin to kill Dooku because he could not do it on his own, hmm? Sidious is known to do things like that.

---

In the Force, there's nothing that indicates the Count as being superior. He's not the stronger Sith. He's done nothing that Sidious hasn't done with the Force. And as for saber skills, I could see him being his slight superior or equal. But most around here deem it otherwise.

Dooku virtually Mastered his Form of ONE VS ONE Dueling and was one of the best Lightsaber duelists around. Pretending to be a Politician didn't require Palpatine much Lightsaber practice. Sidious was damned good, but he was defeatable as we saw, and wasn't able to kill Yoda with his Lightsaber, let alone the force. Nor was he able to best Mace until Sidious' little helper came along to give Sidious the nudge he needed.

---

There are ways to defeat more powerful opponents.

Then Sidious could indeed defeat Dooku.

You know, the back and forth between you two spans multiple threads. Before it becomes a Dooku bashing campaign, I suggest the two of you reconsider continuing this inane discussion. There is no conclusive answer to who is more powerful, or better, or any other subjective, unproven answer you might have.

A better question would be to say which one people prefer. At least then everyone can be right and content.

I personally think that Dooku doesn't really has to be incredibly good in the force to be good in dueling with his style. Sidious however really does.. And for what? His fighting style is only speedy and unpredictable, any good jedi with a cool head can probably overpower Sidious eventually just like what happened to Qui-Gon. It's just the speed they need to watch out for.

Which is why, Ianus, I want it to end here.

---

a) So is saying that Dooku could best Sidious.

b) Either way, Dooku still feared Sidious enough not to do it when the man was 'shackled' to a chair. Kinda odd, don't you think?

c) Oh, yes. Well, lol, if that had been the case, Yoda would've chucked the debris at Count Dooku earlier in the duel. Now, say what you will, we ALL know Yoda wanted to kill Sidious. It isn't so decided with dear Count Dooku.

d) Lmao. I just gave you proof that Sidious had more times on the offensive than Dooku did against Yoda, and whereas Count Dooku struggled to rip a generator from the ceiling, Sidious managed to rip three Senate pods at a time from the moorings and chuck them like paperwads. So, please. Give me some PROOF. Dooku'd be lucky to be considered the EQUAL of Sidious in Force powers.

e) Not really. How so? Sidious could kill Vader, we've seen that. But he'd be out an apprentice if he did; so there'd be no guartentee Luke would have joined them. No. Sidious tries to turn an apprentice because it is conveniant. We 'know' that. But we do not for Dooku.

No. Yoda is better. Yoda is the best duelist. Dooku would probably be second. Or Mace. And, like I said, Sidious kept up for Yoda, so they are all much closer than you'd think.

f) Again. Dooku is weaker than Sidious in the Force, and we know he could probably keep up for him for a while in sabers. And should the fight come down to a Force battle, I don't see your beloved Count walking away.

Conclusion: Kinda feels like I'm on a Dooku smear campaign. But this is simply to combat the immense fanboyism of several people around here, though I won't point any fingers. You can accuse me of fanboyism, but it isn't true. If you'd look around the forums, I'll gladly tell you when Sidious and Yoda both get owned, defeated, or stalemated.

But this is sad. Sidious has sunk so low that Count Dooku could beat him in sabers (believable) and in the FORCE (UN-believable). Say what you will.

Lucas and the websites say he's the more powerful Sith. And if Dooku were a superior Force user, he'd have the title, not Sidious. Just as if Dooku were the more powerful Force user than Yoda, he'd have been the better Jedi. Which he wasn't.

Dooku is a big NUMBER 2 to both Sidious and Yoda in the Sith and Jedi respective departments. It's time for you all to offer some proof, Sorgo, as to why he is the BETTER Force user when clearly he's not cited as such.

Perhaps the only reason that Sidious was cornerd by mace was because Sidious wanted Anakin to be there to Betray mace and Pledge himself to Sidious. I realy do beleive that a simple Force Push could have pushed mace back enough for Sidious to get up and i beleive he could have killed both Anakin and mace if Anakin had chosen not to come or to help mace kill him. However this is all just speculation.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I really dont see how people could believe Dooku is stronger, Dooku pretty much admits it himself that Sidious is stronger in the ROTS novel and in Dark Rendevous.
You cannot refer to those novels as canon here because unless Lucas wrote them you cannot count them for Dooku and Sidious were both his creations and only Lucas has say on their strength (no one else)

Now I still don't see why people thought Dooku was stronger then Sidious but the dark lord of the sith (Sidious) is stronger (maybe by a lot or not by much) then Dooku

I think that Sidous was the more powerful Force-user. Dooku is the better swordsman and could beat him if circumstances were right, but he's not more powerful.

Consider; Kenobi easily blocked Dooku's lighening. It took considerable effort for Mace to block Sidious's (true, it was from point-blank range).

Indeed; not to mention when Kenobi blocked it, he did so with one hand and with ease. And he and Dooku were roughly ten or so feet apart. But then you compare this to Mace, who is a supremely superior Jedi when compared to Kenobi, and who may very well be on Dooku's own level. He struggled immensely to hold the lightning at bay. Not to mention that when it finally did strike - it sent him into such spasms that he was flung out the window - and far beyond anything Dooku sent Anakin to.

No. It's a supreme stretch saying Dooku is the more powerful Force user.

Dooku

1) Tyranus possesses a more powerful and dangerous lightsaber form

Sidious

1) Why didnt Dooku overthrow him when he had the chance? Was he scared?
2) He had a genius plan to seduce young Skywalker and he tricked his apprentice to die.
3) More experience with Dark Side and more powerful Sith Lightning and other Force abilities

a) So is saying that Dooku could best Sidious.

Matter of opinion on clear perspective.

b) Either way, Dooku still feared Sidious enough not to do it when the man was 'shackled' to a chair. Kinda odd, don't you think?

I refuse to repeat myself when this has been explained to you before.

Sidious feared Dooku's intentions of killing him and taking over correct? And you said that just because Sidious fears Dooku's intention doesn't mean he fears him, correct? Well, since Sidious fears Dooku may have taken over his position and killed him, Dooku feared that if he did not please his Master, he would be killed. Dooku feared Sidious' "Intention" on killing him if he did not please him, so does this mean (According to the fact from you that if you fear an Intention, you do not fear an entity) that Dooku feared Sidious' intention and not him? Or does it go the other way around because it's in Sidious' shoes now? No, I don't think it does, does it?

c) Oh, yes. Well, lol, if that had been the case, Yoda would've chucked the debris at Count Dooku earlier in the duel. Now, say what you will, we ALL know Yoda wanted to kill Sidious. It isn't so decided with dear Count Dooku.

And Count Dooku would not have able to counter the debris and he would have died. The end.


^ I do not think so.

d) Lmao. I just gave you proof that Sidious had more times on the offensive than Dooku did against Yoda, and whereas Count Dooku struggled to rip a generator from the ceiling, Sidious managed to rip three Senate pods at a time from the moorings and chuck them like paperwads. So, please. Give me some PROOF. Dooku'd be lucky to be considered the EQUAL of Sidious in Force powers.

Give me proof the Pods weighed more than the Moorings. Or is it "Obvious"?

Stop using the f*cking Criss Cross Analogies! FOR F*CKS SAKE! Just because Sidious can defeat Yoda and Yoda can defeat Dooku does not mean Sidious could waste Dooku. Besides, Sidious didn't even win the damn fight!

e) Not really. How so? Sidious could kill Vader, we've seen that. But he'd be out an apprentice if he did; so there'd be no guartentee Luke would have joined them. No. Sidious tries to turn an apprentice because it is conveniant. We 'know' that. But we do not for Dooku.

We have also seen that Vader can kill Sidious... Because he did!

You mention how Dooku didn't kill a shackled man. How come (If Sidious is more powerful)just straight up f*cking kick the shit out of Dooku? DARK SIDE POINTS FOR ANAKIN? I don't think so! He could have used any of the 200+ Jedi around, which is what he did.


No. Yoda is better. Yoda is the best duelist. Dooku would probably be second. Or Mace. And, like I said, Sidious kept up for Yoda, so they are all much closer than you'd think.

Anakin is more powerful than Kenobi, yet Kenobi dropped his ass.

AND LIKE I SAID different opponents fight differently with each other. Stop the Criss-Cross Analogies BULLSHIT!

f) Again. Dooku is weaker than Sidious in the Force, and we know he could probably keep up for him for a while in sabers. And should the fight come down to a Force battle, I don't see your beloved Count walking away.

Why the f*ck do you speak for everyone? Not everyone thinks he is the Superior Force User, because Me and a few Others (Ianus and Nai) Have seen that Dooku may actually be stronger than Sidious in the Force.

Conclusion: Kinda feels like I'm on a Dooku smear campaign. But this is simply to combat the immense fanboyism of several people around here, though I won't point any fingers. You can accuse me of fanboyism, but it isn't true. If you'd look around the forums, I'll gladly tell you when Sidious and Yoda both get owned, defeated, or stalemated.

Ah, Escape, even Fanboys know their limit. For example, I know Yoda could probably hand Dooku's ass to him. Just because you say that Sidious can be defeat doesn't mean you're not a Fanboy. I have seen in different threads your praise and approval of Sidious and how powerful and smart he is. DO NOT deny that you are not at least 10% leaning towards a Sidious fanboyism.

But this is sad. Sidious has sunk so low that Count Dooku could beat him in sabers (believable) and in the FORCE (UN-believable). Say what you will.

Why not? Apprentices have been known to be stronger than their Masters.

Lucas and the websites say he's the more powerful Sith. And if Dooku were a superior Force user, he'd have the title, not Sidious. Just as if Dooku were the more powerful Force user than Yoda, he'd have been the better Jedi. Which he wasn't.

1. Send me a link saying he is the more powerful Sith than Dooku, please.

2. That he is the more powerful "Sith", not the more powerful Force Utilizer.



Dooku is a big NUMBER 2 to both Sidious and Yoda in the Sith and Jedi respective departments. It's time for you all to offer some proof, Sorgo, as to why he is the BETTER Force user when clearly he's not cited as such.

You have no proof that Sidious is better than Dooku.

All you have is Opinions and Hypocrisy. Why do ask proof when you provide none, Escape?

Clearly not? More than one person has seen Dooku display his Force, arguing it is more powerful than Palpatine's, and these people aren't Fanboys like me.

Originally posted by Escape81
Indeed; not to mention when Kenobi blocked it, he did so with one hand and with ease. And he and Dooku were roughly ten or so feet apart. But then you compare this to Mace, who is a supremely superior Jedi when compared to Kenobi, and who may very well be on Dooku's own level. He struggled immensely to hold the lightning at bay. Not to mention that when it finally did strike - it sent him into such spasms that he was flung out the window - and far beyond anything Dooku sent Anakin to.

No. It's a supreme stretch saying Dooku is the more powerful Force user.

Akwardly, I don't remember Kenobi dodging Force Lightning. Hell, it isn't even in the goddamn script. That's weird!

I also remember Kenobi not being able to dodge Dooku lifting him up, choking him and throwing him under a gargantuan platform.

Dooku sprayed Anakin with one hand (Not two!) and sent him flying back into wall where Anakin had smoke seering off of him. Remove the wall. See how much farther he could have gone if there was no wall. Not to mention the fact that he wasn't using two handed Lightning and he didn't have to charge up.

Well, I guess that's because you forgot about a wonderful little movie called ATTACK OF THE CLONES. Might want to watch it sometime.

a) So it's your opinion? Good.

b) Dark Side points would be earned. Why don't you go around and ask anyone. 'Killing' a person, especially when it's not in self defense, is a little thing called 'murder'. Murder is a sin, no matter how hard you color it up. And, even in the Star Wars universe, repetative use of such 'sins' can draw one closer to the Dark Side. Anakin gave into his anger and hatred for Count Dooku, and executed. So yes. It was indeed for Dark Side points. Dooku was simply too scared to attack Sidious, when the man was shackled to a damn chair. Color it up the way you like.

Facts:

a) Sidious wanted to turn Anakin to the Dark Side. Killing Count Dooku helped. FACT (!)

b) If Dooku wanted to betray his master, he tried to turn Anakin, and something stopped him from laying waste to Sidious (if he even could) while he was shackled to the throne. FACT (!)

c) Perhaps he could've blocked it. Or perhaps not. Yoda was NOT looking to kill Dooku, otherwise he would've chucked the pods back. You speak of Ianus and Nai. Hop on over and ASK Nai his theories on this fight.

d) 'Moorings' are the things that connected the pods to the wall. They were also static, like Dooku's debris. Dooku struggled, and used both hands to rip the debris out. Sidious chucked pods that were THE SAME SIZE (notice I did NOT say weight) as if they were PAPERWADS. Now, at the same time. Let me ask you:

Give me proof that the debris was bigger.

And, even if they were. Let's see... Let's say that the debris WAS around 700 lbs. And the pods weighed each 500 lbs. There were three pods that Sidious chucked with ease, so 3 x 500 lbs is 1500 lbs compared to Dooku's 700 lbs debris, so Sidious not only potentially lifted MORE, but the heavier object. I have a hard time believing that his debris weighed more than ALL THREE pods put together. And again. Sidious chucked them WITH EASE.

e) Well, again. ANYONE is CAPABLE OF DEFEATING THOSE WHO ARE MORE POWERFUL THAN THEY ARE (!). Kenobi vs Anakin and Sidious vs Vader. So, even IF Dooku were stronger in the Force (which he's not), Sidious is STILL capable of killing him.

f) Then have Ianus and Nai get involved. Both are extremely capable debators and certainly beyond myself. But, in the same token, I'll still argue against it until I see evidence or an EXTREMELY well put together opinion that can convince me otherwise. And -YOU- lack both.

g) No. In fact, if I were to have any bias, I'd probably have a Kun, Ragnos, or Yoda bias before I would for Sidious. You'll find me 'cheering' for DE Sidious, who 'IS' powerful. Moreso than Yoda or Dooku (sorry if that offends you, but DE Sidious would hand Dooku's ass to him, but that's beside the point). And Sidious's intellect is among the most capable Star Wars characters. He's easily the greatest in the PT and OT.

h) This isn't always the case. Traya ? Ragnos ? Revan ? Those three are just some of the few. If the apprentices ARE stronger, they will rip the mantle of Dark Lord from their masters. Which unfortunately, Dooku never did.

i) If he were the more powerful Force user of the two, he would BE the more powerful SITH. More power does NOT mean more experience. If Dooku had more POWER, then Sidious's superior experience would be negated. Dooku does NOT have the title. So explain to me THAT.

b) Dark Side points would be earned. Why don't you go around and ask anyone. 'Killing' a person, especially when it's not in self defense, is a little thing called 'murder'. Murder is a sin, no matter how hard you color it up. And, even in the Star Wars universe, repetative use of such 'sins' can draw one closer to the Dark Side. Anakin gave into his anger and hatred for Count Dooku, and executed. So yes. It was indeed for Dark Side points. Dooku was simply too scared to attack Sidious, when the man was shackled to a damn chair. Color it up the way you like.

Facts:

a) Sidious wanted to turn Anakin to the Dark Side. Killing Count Dooku helped. FACT (!

It would look f*cking dumb on his part! He would have been alone and without no one if he killed Sidious! It isn't in Dooku's nature to kill an unarmed opponent. He isn't a True Sith! Sidious is the Sith Coward, NOT DOOKU! Dooku would not just run up to Palpatine and slash him. Then he wouldn't have Anakin as an apprentice. Anakin would have been like "WTF?!?! YOU KILLED TEH CHANCEY! CHANCEY ARE MEH FRIEND! HUZZAH!!!!!!!!"

It would have made Dooku look even worse to Anakin, whom he wanted as an apprentice. I am sure he didn't try to unlock his Anger for no reason. He was also talking of how Anakin had unatural powers in AOTC. He wanted him as an Apprentice after he tooled Palpsy.



b) If Dooku wanted to betray his master, he tried to turn Anakin, and something stopped him from laying waste to Sidious (if he even could) while he was shackled to the throne. FACT (!)

Such disgusting Arrogance! You're slapping your Opinion down as fact? I am a Fanboy and even I don't try to pull that bullshit.

c) Perhaps he could've blocked it. Or perhaps not. Yoda was NOT looking to kill Dooku, otherwise he would've chucked the pods back. You speak of Ianus and Nai. Hop on over and ASK Nai his theories on this fight.

Nai WILL come here, don't worry. And I can assure you, he will be against you on this one.

He didn't need to chuck the Pods back. But he did chuck the Lightning back! And he did grunt and scream while attempting to kill Dooku!

d) 'Moorings' are the things that connected the pods to the wall. They were also static, like Dooku's debris. Dooku struggled, and used both hands to rip the debris out. Sidious chucked pods that were THE SAME SIZE (notice I did NOT say weight) as if they were PAPERWADS. Now, at the same time. Let me ask you:

Give me proof that the debris was bigger.

No one said it was bigger. SHAZAM!

I am sure if Sidious was Dooku's age, he would have struggled too.

And, even if they were. Let's see... Let's say that the debris WAS around 700 lbs. And the pods weighed each 500 lbs. There were three pods that Sidious chucked with ease, so 3 x 500 lbs is 1500 lbs compared to Dooku's 700 lbs debris, so Sidious not only potentially lifted MORE, but the heavier object. I have a hard time believing that his debris weighed more than ALL THREE pods put together. And again. Sidious chucked them WITH EASE.

Dooku had to lift the Machinery above the arching and then aim it directly at Yoda. It was directly behind Dooku and Dooku was on a straight base. Dooku had to turn around and aim it properly without a Down slope. Sidious had his pods almost directly above his head and did not have to aim them, but instead just pivoted them out of the wall and threw them in an akwardice positioning towards Yoda. Yoda was on the down slope. Because remember: Having the High Ground always helps, and as I recall, Sids had the high ground and Dooku and Yoda were equalized.

e) Well, again. ANYONE is CAPABLE OF DEFEATING THOSE WHO ARE MORE POWERFUL THAN THEY ARE (!). Kenobi vs Anakin and Sidious vs Vader. So, even IF Dooku were stronger in the Force (which he's not), Sidious is STILL capable of killing him.

Indeed, but even if Sidious was stronger in the Force (Which he is not) Dooku is STILL capable of killing him.

f) Then have Ianus and Nai get involved. Both are extremely capable debators and certainly beyond myself. But, in the same token, I'll still argue against it until I see evidence or an EXTREMELY well put together opinion that can convince me otherwise. And -YOU- lack both.

I am not the only one Lacking things around here.

g) No. In fact, if I were to have any bias, I'd probably have a Kun, Ragnos, or Yoda bias before I would for Sidious. You'll find me 'cheering' for DE Sidious, who 'IS' powerful. Moreso than Yoda or Dooku (sorry if that offends you, but DE Sidious would hand Dooku's ass to him, but that's beside the point). And Sidious's intellect is among the most capable Star Wars characters. He's easily the greatest in the PT and OT.

That's great, but DE Sidious is just beyond comprehensible power. Besides, Dooku isn't alive in DE times. Sidious needed HELP from ancient Dark Lords ressurecting him to obtain this power. Damn, If Dooku had that same help, well.... Figure it out.



h) This isn't always the case. Traya ? Ragnos ? Revan ? Those three are just some of the few. If the apprentices ARE stronger, they will rip the mantle of Dark Lord from their masters. Which unfortunately, Dooku never did.

Traya's apprentices smashed her, Sidious' apprentice smashed him, Malak smashed Revan in the beginning, and Sidious smashed Plageius. It is a streak in the Sith to betray their Masters, more powerful or not. And as we see, all of the above succeeded. And not all of them were more powerful, but alot of them were, Like DOOKU!

i) If he were the more powerful Force user of the two, he would BE the more powerful SITH. More power does NOT mean more experience. If Dooku had more POWER, then Sidious's superior experience would be negated. Dooku does NOT have the title. So explain to me THAT.

No he wouldn't! Sidious was more intelligent and had a great Knowledge of the Dark side. Being the stronger Sith isn't "Force, Force and Force" Like you seem to think.

Lmao. Lol, alright.

Intellect and experience are all well and good. Vodo was smarter than Exar, but he was WEAKER. Sidious was smarter than Yoda and he was WEAKER. Traya is smarter than Revan, and she is supposedly WEAKER.

POWER is NOT measured by INTELLECT. IF this were the case, Sidious would be in the top THREE Sith Lords.

You're very imbecilic. Omg0zors!11!!! Malak smashed Revan! Yep, but he got wasted in the end, didn't he? And didn't Nihilius and Scion return under Traya's supervision?

Lmao! I'll wipe out your 'age' theory.

'If Sidious were as old as Dooku, I'm sure he'd have struggled too'.

a) Speculation. Sorry, Sorgo.

b) If Age has anything to do with it, Yoda would have his ass handed to him by anyone. But it doesn't. Sorry, just looks like poor Count Dooku didn't have what it took to perform the feat easily.

Originally posted by Escape81
Lmao! I'll wipe out your 'age' theory.

'If Sidious were as old as Dooku, I'm sure he'd have struggled too'.

a) Speculation. Sorry, Sorgo.

b) If Age has anything to do with it, Yoda would have his ass handed to him by anyone. But it doesn't. Sorry, just looks like poor Count Dooku didn't have what it took to perform the feat easily.

Lmao! I'll revive my age theory!

When Sidious reached Dooku's age, he limped around on a damned cane.

Originally posted by Escape81
You're very imbecilic. Omg0zors!11!!! Malak smashed Revan! Yep, but he got wasted in the end, didn't he? And didn't Nihilius and Scion return under Traya's supervision?

The only reason Revan survived is because the Jedi had to try damned hard to heal his sorry ass and wipe his memory. He got f*cked up bad.

Now. As for the 'arrogance'. You'll forgive me. But whereas you vent your frustration through anger and rage, I do so through other means. It is a bad habit, but one I am forced with - and like myself with your anger - one you'll have to endure.

a) 'Age' doesn't matter. If anything, it generally collects experience that youth does not. If age were an inability, Yoda would be very weak and very pathetic. But he's neither, despite being centuries older than Dooku or Sidious.

The debris Dooku tore was above him; not behind him. He simply had to break it away and drop it down on Yoda, who stopped it and carried it to the side.

Sidious tore three pods that were proportionately the same size, and possibly the same weight. All together, his pods surely had to have outweighed the debris, being made of metal and the fact that there were three of them. Sidious did this, my friend, with ease, whereas Dooku did not.

b) Power is not estimated by age or experience. Again, had this been the case, Vodo would've been more powerful than Kun. Traya would have been more powerful than Revan (I think she is, but that's just me). And Kenobi would've been more powerful than Anakin. But neither three were. Even though they were smarter, older, and more experienced, they were not more powerful, though you can make a case for Traya, due to her staggering innate Force powers.

So if Dooku were the more powerful FORCE-user, the title of the most powerful Sith Lord would be his. But it wasn't.

c) And Dooku's eyes were wide with fear and his teeth clenched. Yoda simply wore down Dooku's defenses, which forced the Count to flee.

In conclusion: I want to see where you can prove or at LEAST make a convincing argument where Sidious is the inferior Force user. I've given you some of mine. The website... the pods vs the debris... and so far, Sidious has been shown to be the stronger Force-user. I would like to see more 'argument' and 'evidence' from you, instead of fury.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Lmao! I'll revive my age theory!

When Sidious reached Dooku's age, he limped around on a damned cane.

We've been through this; and oddly, you've never commented on it. Be sure that you do. We've seen Sidious limp around on a cane when he was older, but also surrounded by thousands upon thousands of the Empire's soldiers.

Now. Fastforward to where he was alone, and in private. He didn't need the cane at all when he was just in Vader's presence - and Luke's. I do hope you recall this, or I shall surely remind you.

He walked down, up, back, and forth, from the steps and the throne room without the cane. Tell me, Sorgo, how can you revive this theory?

Originally posted by Sorgo
The only reason Revan survived is because the Jedi had to try damned hard to heal his sorry ass and wipe his memory. He got f*cked up bad.

Ah. But Malak did the supposed 'Sidious' thing, and attacked him with a ship while he was facing down three Jedi. Funny thing, don't you think?

Originally posted by Escape81
We've been through this; and oddly, you've never commented on it. Be sure that you do. We've seen Sidious limp around on a cane when he was older, but also surrounded by thousands upon thousands of the Empire's soldiers.

Now. Fastforward to where he was alone, and in private. He didn't need the cane at all when he was just in Vader's presence - and Luke's. I do hope you recall this, or I shall surely remind you.

He walked down, up, back, and forth, from the steps and the throne room without the cane. Tell me, Sorgo, how can you revive this theory?


He walked down the stairs without his Cane and SLOWLY preceeded towards Luke. Very Slowly. And he practically stood there as he shocked Luke and took maybe a small few steps forward. He could hardly move.

Originally posted by Escape81
Ah. But Malak did the supposed 'Sidious' thing, and attacked him with a ship while he was facing down three Jedi. Funny thing, don't you think?

Do you not understand? Malak was a Coward, but he still took over.... Until the Jedi revived him, I suppose.

And Revan was still damaged.

No. It means Malak couldn't have done it face-to-face, or even in melee battle. He had to use a damn battleship to take out Revan; and he even failed at that. That'd be like me going up to Bill Gates, clubbing him in the back of the head, or shooting him, and then state I'm the richest man on the planet. Doesn't mean jack. You've done nothing to prove it.

And, look again.

Sidious moves very quickly when Luke first arrives. After he removes his bonds, and takes his lightsaber. Sorry, Sorgo. He only used the cane to make himself appear weak. Lucas called him (I think its the ROTJ commentary) 'a wolf in sheeps clothing'.

Age theory = busted.

Originally posted by Escape81
Now. As for the 'arrogance'. You'll forgive me. But whereas you vent your frustration through anger and rage, I do so through other means. It is a bad habit, but one I am forced with - and like myself with your anger - one you'll have to endure.

a) 'Age' doesn't matter. If anything, it generally collects experience that youth does not. If age were an inability, Yoda would be very weak and very pathetic. But he's neither, despite being centuries older than Dooku or Sidious.

The debris Dooku tore was above him; not behind him. He simply had to break it away and drop it down on Yoda, who stopped it and carried it to the side.

Sidious tore three pods that were proportionately the same size, and possibly the same weight. All together, his pods surely had to have outweighed the debris, being made of metal and the fact that there were three of them. Sidious did this, my friend, with ease, whereas Dooku did not.

b) Power is not estimated by age or experience. Again, had this been the case, Vodo would've been more powerful than Kun. Traya would have been more powerful than Revan (I think she is, but that's just me). And Kenobi would've been more powerful than Anakin. But neither three were. Even though they were smarter, older, and more experienced, they were not more powerful, though you can make a case for Traya, due to her staggering innate Force powers.

So if Dooku were the more powerful FORCE-user, the title of the most powerful Sith Lord would be his. But it wasn't.

c) And Dooku's eyes were wide with fear and his teeth clenched. Yoda simply wore down Dooku's defenses, which forced the Count to flee.

In conclusion: I want to see where you can prove or at LEAST make a convincing argument where Sidious is the inferior Force user. I've given you some of mine. The website... the pods vs the debris... and so far, Sidious has been shown to be the stronger Force-user. I would like to see more 'argument' and 'evidence' from you, instead of fury.

Well, I have still requested the Evidence from Lucas' website that Sidious is the most powerful Sith, let alone most powerful force user.

Originally posted by Escape81
No. It means Malak couldn't have done it face-to-face, or even in melee battle. He had to use a damn battleship to take out Revan; and he even failed at that. That'd be like me going up to Bill Gates, clubbing him in the back of the head, or shooting him, and then state I'm the richest man on the planet. Doesn't mean jack. You've done nothing to prove it.

And, look again.

Sidious moves very quickly when Luke first arrives. After he removes his bonds, and takes his lightsaber. Sorry, Sorgo. He only used the cane to make himself appear weak. Lucas called him (I think its the ROTJ commentary) 'a wolf in sheeps clothing'.

Age theory = busted.


So... The thing you said with Malak, correct? If you take someone by surprise, It doesn't mean jack, right? Sidious is known to take his opponents by surprise, RIGHT? But you called that "Smart". So wouldn't Malak be using his "Smarts"? Or was he just cowardly like Sidious? I'll let you pick.


He means a Wolf in Sheeps clothing referring to the fact that he played a Bright Chancellor and ended up actually being a Dark Emperor. It has nothing to do with him moving around quickly.

He when took his Lightsaber, he moved his HANDS quickly and used the Force. Didn't see alot of jumping, running, walking fast or grabbing involed there.

a) What Malak did was 'smart', I never denied that. But he had to use a fricken' SHIP - as in a battleship - to take the mantle. But, Revan then proceeded to own him in battle thereafter, thus proving that Malak was not worthy.

b) Do not, for a moment, assume that you know what he's saying. Your age theory is busted, Sorgo. He didn't need the cane. He walked from his throne quite quickly and nimbly for an old man. He never used it when alone, with Vader or with Luke. But when there were potentially treacherous individuals around OR those who did not know of his power, he did not use the cane at all. Sorry, but he didn't need the cane.

c) At the same time, I didn't see that crap from Yoda, either. The jumps you speak of were few and far between from the characters of the PT. You had the occasional jumps, but lo and behold, it came from mostly Luke.

Gee... could it be that they didn't have the sophisticated stunt system that they do now, and that only the most fit and younger actors could have done it?

Now wouldn't that be a cool idea.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Well, I have still requested the Evidence from Lucas' website that Sidious is the most powerful Sith, let alone most powerful force user.

I 'never' said 'most powerful Force-user'.

And, go to the Sidious databank, under the Expanded Universe. First paragraph, I believe.

Age and experience do not measure power. So if Dooku were the more powerful Force user, he would've had the title of most powerful Sith. But he did not.

a) Malak still ripped his Memory to shreds. If it weren't for Malak, it would have been a secret forever. Malak carefully left clues around so he would figure it out, and virtually told him near the end. Revan still owned him, but Malak still owned the Galaxy for a bit of time.

b) Halt for a f*cking second here. YOU'RE Assuming he didn't need the Cane. Can you provide any god damned proof he didn't need the Cane? Or is my Age Theory busted because you said so?


Don't try to talk outside of the movie, because that doesn't matters. That's like me saying "Dooku isn't the one who ripped Anakin to shreds because he had a hernia! SKA!"

You know it's getting sad when you have to try to climb outside of the movie.

Originally posted by Escape81
I 'never' said 'most powerful Force-user'.

And, go to the Sidious databank, under the Expanded Universe. First paragraph, I believe.

Age and experience do not measure power. So if Dooku were the more powerful Force user, he would've had the title of most powerful Sith. But he did not.

I looked and saw nothing saying he was the most powerful Sith of that time. All I got was this in the form of Mastery of any kind.


and Sidious' mastery of illusion and deceit.



What title?

Originally posted by Sorgo
a) Malak still ripped his Memory to shreds. If it weren't for Malak, it would have been a secret forever. Malak carefully left clues around so he would figure it out, and virtually told him near the end. Revan still owned him, but Malak still owned the Galaxy for a bit of time.

b) Halt for a f*cking second here. YOU'RE Assuming he didn't need the Cane. Can you provide any god damned proof he didn't need the Cane? Or is my Age Theory busted because you said so?


Don't try to talk outside of the movie, because that doesn't matters. That's like me saying "Dooku isn't the one who ripped Anakin to shreds because he had a hernia! SKA!"

You know it's getting sad when you have to try to climb outside of the movie.

a) Yup. It was a clever move. But Revan owns Malak any day of the week.

b) He didn't need the cane. Again, he was seen for the latter half of the movie without it, when in Vader's presence (someone who knew his power) and Luke (someone who knew it from Vader). Now, when he's around power-hungry Moffs and Governors and advisors, he oddly has the cane. When they leave, he doesn't use it and is very quick.

He doesn't need the cane. If he did, he'd have used it all the time.

So yes, your age theory is busted.

Palpatine's.

While I pretty much like both of you for being competent debaters. Before you go on with this "Sidious vs Dooku" stuff for eternity let me give both of you (or maybe only Escape81) some different perspective with some character analysation:

Sidious:
Sidious is by any means a coward. He's a sith and his modus operandi are the rules of the Sith. He uses manipulation, betrayal, deception, stealth actions and so on to archieve his goals. His "power" is an outcome of his philosophy. Most of it (talking about political influence) was archieved through the kinds of actions I mentioned above. While being a capable force user and duellist he doesn't like to rely much on both - at least not when confronted with equal fighters (seen when he tried to escape from Yoda and he killed his own master while his master was sleeping and therefor defenceless).

Dooku:
Dooku while being a Sith completely rejects the "philosophical" part of the Sith lore. He's a political idealist which is the opposite of what Sidious is. When it comes to confrontation (be it political or duells) he always gives his opponents a fair chance. Have a look at it:
- he basically told the Jedi where the Sith Lord can be found by revealing that the Senate is under the control of the Dark Lord.
- he gave Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme a chance to survive by placing them in the arena confronting them with monster instead of simply executing them
- he never attacks people before they aren't ready for a fight

The point is: Dooku is very focused on "honorable" action and "fair play" which might come from his aristocratic heritage or from his Jedi education. Keep that point in mind when I now try to give some statements about the most important questions in your debate:

"Dooku fearing Sidious"
By any means of logic I don't see a reason why this should be the case. Dooku is a trained warrior and has experienced some wars (Stark Hyperspace War, Battle of Galindraan against the Mandalorians). He's very skilled in terms of force use and he's an exceptional duellist and he had encountered the most powerful force users and lightsaber duellist of his time (Yoda and Mace) back in times when he was a Jedi.
Now why should he fear Sidious ? In terms of personal power (Force powers, lightsaber skills) they are on a very close level. When it comes to political power: They both controlled an army while Dooku had some advantages here.
a) He's one of the richest individuals in the entire Galaxy.
b) He would have been able to reveal Palpatine as being Sidious at any time he wanted

And just to add it: When Dooku first met Asajj Ventress he tells her what is the difference between a Sith and a normal Dark Side user and this is that "Sith don't fear anything". And "anything" includes Sidious.

The point is that Dooku with his ideals and beliefs would never have seen Sidious as a personal threat because they are on the same side and "betrayal" is nothing that Dooku would even think about which makes the idea of Dooku fearing Sidious quite senseless and leads me to the next point:

"But Dooku was the apprentice"
Yes. He was. The point is: If Dooku would ever had the intention to overthrow Sidious he would have tried to do it in a "fair fight". If he had the intention to do that - and would willfully have done that at any costs he could have easily done that with betrayal.

- before AotC he simply could have told the Jedi who the Sith Lord was they were searching for. The Jedi had limitless confidence in Dooku - hell...they even thrusted him when he has revealed himself as a Dark Sider.
- in ROTS when Sidious was sitting around in this chair Dooku could have simply cut him down. Fear or not. Sidious was without a weapon and defenceless. If Sidious can kill Plagueis in such an situation (and Sidious knew that Plagueis was much more powerful than him) Dooku could have done the same to Sidious.

Fact is: Betrayal doesn't fit Dooku's character. I don't even believe that he ever had in mind to overthrow his master despite the fact that he was a dark side practicioner because being the man he is. If Dooku just had searched for power he could have used his nearly infinite amount of money to buy Senators and make himself the Emperor, he could have used the CIS and overcome the Republic with sheer force.

And he was in fact shocked when his master betrayed him. Shocked because he never thought that his master would be able to do that. Shocked because "betrayal" doesn't fit into his ideology same way "corruption" doesn't fit into it.
That basically means he could never have become the "master" because he totally lags the normal Sith "qualities" and not because he wasn't able to take Sidious out or feared Sidious.

"Sidious is more powerful"
Again we're entering the vast field of speculation.
I wouldn't doubt that Sidious is the most powerful Dark Side practioner in the movies because he simply was trained in the ways of the Dark Side for his entire life where Dooku started to train Dark Side powers at some point after TPM (so he did it for a maximum of 13 years).

But the point is "Dark Side practioner" here.

Dooku on his own was one of the most powerful people that were trained in the Jedi Order during the last centuries. He was able to overpower Mace (although Mace was younger at this point) and Mace is a force prodigy if you consider the facts that he was a Knight at the age of 13 and a Council member at the age of 28 (which means he's basically developing twice as fast as "normal" Jedi).

So Dooku might have a greater potential than Sidious (this is aided by the fact they both have shown a nearly equal mastery in Dark Side powers) and he might be the greater overall force user.

And thinking about it I must say that I my personal view is that this discussion is quite senseless since there is no proof for both opinions (Dooku stronger or Sidious stronger) and it doesn't even matter because they are both on a very equal level. If one of them has an advantage over the other that is only a marginal advantage.

Conclusion:
Dooku and Sidious can't be compared because having a completely different mindset on certain topics. Sidious is a Sith in force use and ideology while Dooku is not. Dooku doesn't see the Jedi as "worthless enemies" he threats then with respect and even helps them. There's no room in his ideology for Sith ideals.

And if they both would ever enter a real fight for the title of the Dark Lord we can't really tell who would have won. On equal ground and without any opportunity to gain advantages through the enviroment I pretty much believe that Dooku would win because they are basically equal in terms of force powers while Dooku is the better duellist.
If "anything is allowed" Sidious will most likely win this because Dooku will fight according to his philosophy which can be compressed into the idea of a "fair fight". And fighting fair against somebody who's ideology is to use "dirty tricks" will most likely result in the fair fighter losing.
Or to make it clear: In a fight like Mace vs Sidious, Sidious will most likely get defeated by Dooku (the same way Mace defeated him) while in a fight that is more like Sidious vs Yoda, Sidious will most likely defeat Dooku.

Originally posted by Escape81
Palpatine's.

He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times.

Sith Ways... Y'know... Betrayal, Deceit.... This doesn't make him the more powerful individual than Dooku. It makes him a better "SITH".

a) Yup. It was a clever move. But Revan owns Malak any day of the week.

b) He didn't need the cane. Again, he was seen for the latter half of the movie without it, when in Vader's presence (someone who knew his power) and Luke (someone who knew it from Vader). Now, when he's around power-hungry Moffs and Governors and advisors, he oddly has the cane. When they leave, he doesn't use it and is very quick.

He doesn't need the cane. If he did, he'd have used it all the time.

So yes, your age theory is busted.

The point is when he doesn't have the Cane, he isn't running around like crazy or utilizing a Lightsaber. He is SLOWLY walking around. Extremely slowly, indicating age has smashed him in the face.

His shoulders also slump to the extreme as when the didn't as much in ROTS. Age is indeed catching up to him. There isn't an Age "Theory". The fact is he was getting old. Too many obvious points, including the damned cane.

Well, it is said in the Ultimate Guide to Star Wars, the old one from '95, that Sidious really doesn't need the cane, but uses to project the image of weakness and age. Keep in mind that only a select few know of Palpatine's secret.

Anyway, I really think the two of you should cool it. Not to be rude or anything, but all this thread is going to do is create even more friction between you. And that really doesn't yield good results.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, it is said in the Ultimate Guide to Star Wars, the old one from '95, that Sidious really doesn't need the cane, but uses to project the image of weakness and age. Keep in mind that only a select few know of Palpatine's secret.

Anyway, I really think the two of you should cool it. Not to be rude or anything, but all this thread is going to do is create even more friction between you. And that really doesn't yield good results.

Actually, Sorgo and I are quite fine with eachother when we leave the thread. He and I talk to eachother via PMs seconds after the debate and we're fine. I respect the guy. He's very persistent.

And, glad to meet you. Whilst I'm not in my most 'composed' form, I still recognize the advice of a veteran around here.

Sorgo, be sure to read the first paragraph of his statement...

Originally posted by Escape81
Actually, Sorgo and I are quite fine with eachother when we leave the thread. He and I talk to eachother via PMs seconds after the debate and we're fine. I respect the guy. He's very persistent.

And, glad to meet you. Whilst I'm not in my most 'composed' form, I still recognize the advice of a veteran around here.

Sorgo, be sure to read the first paragraph of his statement...


This is true, Faunus. Me and Escape81 are perfectly fine out of debates. We know our roles and can keep them in line perfectly.


Interesting... I am going to have to check this Ultimate SW Guide out!


Escape, I never got around to that Sig. I'll do it for you now.

Likewise. Nice to have you around.

And Sorgo? persistent? Try stubborn. Kidding! Spare the Wrath of Sorgo the Cruel!

*Screams as he plummets into Oblivion*

See ? Sorgo is secretly my droid. C-3P0 is his father. Mwahahahaha.

Isn't Palpatine in his early to late 90's by the time of ROTJ?

Sorgo the Cruel? The spawn of the golden dustbucket Threepio?!

SORGO!!11!1!!!!!

No. He's 65 as of ROTS. Meaning that by ROTJ, which is 23 years later, he is 87.

Originally posted by Escape81
See ? Sorgo is secretly my droid. C-3P0 is his father. Mwahahahaha.

http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/4428/lordsidiouscopy9is.jpg

Escape... You like?

Faunus, you've yet to express your views. Tell them, if you don't mind. You won't hurt my feelings if you agree with Sorgo.

Originally posted by Sorgo
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/4428/lordsidiouscopy9is.jpg

Escape... You like?

Looks awesome. I'll use it tomorrow (about beddy-bye time for me). I have a long day ahead of me.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
No. He's 65 as of ROTS. Meaning that by ROTJ, which is 23 years later, he is 87.

Ah, alright. Well, close enough.

Originally posted by Escape81
Looks awesome. I'll use it tomorrow (about beddy-bye time for me). I have a long day ahead of me.

Check this out. I went from Paint to Photoshop.

Originally posted by Escape81
Faunus, you've yet to express your views. Tell them, if you don't mind. You won't hurt my feelings if you agree with Sorgo.

In all honesty, I have to side with Escape in this one. I don't think he's being particularly judgemental or biased in either character's favor, and his assessment of their abilities seem accurate enough.

The truth is, I myself have recently ecome somewhat irked with the level of disregard giving to certain characters. Sidious is possibly the most disrespected major character on the board. I was alright with it until somewhat said that Anakin and Obi-Wan could out-duel Palpatine. Erm, no.

Now, no one jump at me for my opinion, but whatever. Personally, I believe the Emperor to possess a greater knowledge and mastery of the Dark Side, and is also better suited to its use. Am I saying Dooku sucks? No. When he back-kicked Anakin into the air and Gripped Obi-Wan simultaneously, I was impressed. That takes concentration and skill. However, Sorgo himself said it; Dooku lives, works, and fights by a code of honor. He is governed by his ideals and morals, and would never even toe some of the lines that Sidious is willing to cross. He is not as evil, as malicious, as Sidious is, and so can never use the more advanced, the more wicked tricks of the Dark Side as well as Palpatine can. Don't get me wrong, he is formidable in terms of Force ability. And he is far from being totally outclassed here. But I think Sidious has the advantage in this department.

Dueling ability is the harder one. While Dooku has displayed amazing swordsmanship, I don't think he overwhelm Sidious with his mastery of the lightsaber here. I certainly think that he has the slight advantage here, as he is the only living master of a dueling-centric saber form. But I think it would be a decent fight.

Overall, I believe that Sidious would most likely defeat Dooku in a battle of the Force, although it would gruelling, but would fall in a classic duel setting, or your regular 'fair' fight. If he is able to find any sort of environmental advantage, however, he will use his wicked nature to turn the fight in his favor. He is, after-all, the dirtiest fighter of his time.

And Sorgo, I'm lovin' the sig. Very nice work.

Hmm, I mostly agree with what Faunus just said.

I believe Palpatine to be the stronger Sith because, well, do you think someone as high calibre as Dooku would submit to someone less powerful than he?

Originally posted by Captain REX
Hmm, I mostly agree with what Faunus just said.

I believe Palpatine to be the stronger Sith because, well, do you think someone as high calibre as Dooku would submit to someone less powerful than he?

Why not? He knew of Sidious' plans, and maybe didn't have the brains to pull it off. So he could have waited until a selective moment when his Organization reached a skyhigh climax, and then just kill Sidious.

Sidious sat.... For over twenty years as a Chancellor when he was in fact organizing a plan.... Dooku was doing the same.

I knew Dooku wished to take over, but the idea is that he is LEARNING from Palpatine, as well as partaking in his plans.

I don't think Palpatine would teach him to try to overthrow his Master, and if he did, I am sure Dooku had the intention in the first place.


Sure, Dooku was learning from Sidious but I am sure Sidious learned some things from Dooku. Dooku is quite the wise man, and he has considerable experience.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
In all honesty, I have to side with Escape in this one. I don't think he's being particularly judgemental or biased in either character's favor, and his assessment of their abilities seem accurate enough.

The truth is, I myself have recently ecome somewhat irked with the level of disregard giving to certain characters. Sidious is possibly the most disrespected major character on the board. I was alright with it until somewhat said that Anakin and Obi-Wan could out-duel Palpatine. Erm, no.

Now, no one jump at me for my opinion, but whatever. Personally, I believe the Emperor to possess a greater knowledge and mastery of the Dark Side, and is also better suited to its use. Am I saying Dooku sucks? No. When he back-kicked Anakin into the air and Gripped Obi-Wan simultaneously, I was impressed. That takes concentration and skill. However, Sorgo himself said it; Dooku lives, works, and fights by a code of honor. He is governed by his ideals and morals, and would never even toe some of the lines that Sidious is willing to cross. He is not as evil, as malicious, as Sidious is, and so can never use the more advanced, the more wicked tricks of the Dark Side as well as Palpatine can. Don't get me wrong, he is formidable in terms of Force ability. And he is far from being totally outclassed here. But I think Sidious has the advantage in this department.

Dueling ability is the harder one. While Dooku has displayed amazing swordsmanship, I don't think he overwhelm Sidious with his mastery of the lightsaber here. I certainly think that he has the slight advantage here, as he is the only living master of a dueling-centric saber form. But I think it would be a decent fight.

Overall, I believe that Sidious would most likely defeat Dooku in a battle of the Force, although it would gruelling, but would fall in a classic duel setting, or your regular 'fair' fight. If he is able to find any sort of environmental advantage, however, he will use his wicked nature to turn the fight in his favor. He is, after-all, the dirtiest fighter of his time.

And Sorgo, I'm lovin' the sig. Very nice work.

Faunus, stop reading my mind.

Faunus has a way with words. I agree with what he said as well. Very nice.

Originally posted by Ianus
Faunus has a way with words. I agree with what he said as well. Very nice.

He does. Which is why I wish his posts and comments weren't so rare on here. I never did manage to get to know the man when he was an incredibly active poster around here. Alas...

Hes busy with school now. These forums are at they're peak over the summer.

Yeah, that's true. During the summer this place was sick with activity. Even I couldn't keep up with the new posts per day, or even per hour.

Now? Quiet. It's kicked up some this week compared to the tail end of September, but still...

Faunus is part of zee crew, the NJO, and is very good at moderating views since he is pretty well even headed.

Speaking of a guy who knew his stuff, where's Dipsit? Or Emperor Revan?

Uh, Dipsit must be swamped in school because he rarely comes on.

Emperor Revan stopped coming when the entire forum began a Revan smearing campaign.

ER probably got tired of being pwnd by Janus but I don't know about Dipsit.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
In all honesty, I have to side with Escape in this one. I don't think he's being particularly judgemental or biased in either character's favor, and his assessment of their abilities seem accurate enough.

The truth is, I myself have recently ecome somewhat irked with the level of disregard giving to certain characters. Sidious is possibly the most disrespected major character on the board. I was alright with it until somewhat said that Anakin and Obi-Wan could out-duel Palpatine. Erm, no.

Now, no one jump at me for my opinion, but whatever. Personally, I believe the Emperor to possess a greater knowledge and mastery of the Dark Side, and is also better suited to its use. Am I saying Dooku sucks? No. When he back-kicked Anakin into the air and Gripped Obi-Wan simultaneously, I was impressed. That takes concentration and skill. However, Sorgo himself said it; Dooku lives, works, and fights by a code of honor. He is governed by his ideals and morals, and would never even toe some of the lines that Sidious is willing to cross. He is not as evil, as malicious, as Sidious is, and so can never use the more advanced, the more wicked tricks of the Dark Side as well as Palpatine can. Don't get me wrong, he is formidable in terms of Force ability. And he is far from being totally outclassed here. But I think Sidious has the advantage in this department.

Dueling ability is the harder one. While Dooku has displayed amazing swordsmanship, I don't think he overwhelm Sidious with his mastery of the lightsaber here. I certainly think that he has the slight advantage here, as he is the only living master of a dueling-centric saber form. But I think it would be a decent fight.

Overall, I believe that Sidious would most likely defeat Dooku in a battle of the Force, although it would gruelling, but would fall in a classic duel setting, or your regular 'fair' fight. If he is able to find any sort of environmental advantage, however, he will use his wicked nature to turn the fight in his favor. He is, after-all, the dirtiest fighter of his time.

And Sorgo, I'm lovin' the sig. Very nice work.

Very nice post Faunus, BUT...

There are times when Sidious duels and doesn't use anything cheap or to his advantage. For example, his duel with Mace. We saw a fairly good fight between them. Sidious used his Lightsaber and Mace used his. Mace kicked his ass and had Sidious begging for mercy. But you must remember: Sidious has a way of underestimating his opponents by a GREAT deal. If he got in a fight with Dooku, he may underestimate him, which could end up his demise. Sidious underestimated both Yoda and Mace, and was stomped by one of them and nearly stomped by the other.


It also depends where they are.

If they're in the middle of a field, I can see Dooku wasting Sidious. But in the Senate room, Sidious would probably turn Cheap-ass and start chucking pods at him.

Hold up now, I thought that Sids fought Mace and made it LOOK like he got owned so as to make Anakin more inclined to view Sids favourably?

I have come to a Grand conclusion:


Niether would win!


I can't see a setting in which is a proper venerable for me.


"Dooku would cut Sidious up, Sidious would fry Dooku, If they were in senate room Sids would win, if they were in a hallway, Dooku would win, Would Sidious underestimate Dooku? Would Dooku's age get to him? Would Sidious start using the force? Would Sidious and Dooku just battle it out lightsaber? Would....Blah Blah BLAH!"


^ See? It's just too hard to determine who would actually win this.

They both have so many favors on their sides that just can't honestly clash with each other properly.


I say it's a stalemate.

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
Hold up now, I thought that Sids fought Mace and made it LOOK like he got owned so as to make Anakin more inclined to view Sids favourably?


Listen to the ROTS DVD Commentary. Mace owned him.

Eh, that's open for debate last time I checked.

Meh, don't have the DVD, point conceded.

Yeah, same here. Haven't had the spare change to buy the DVD. I'd rather spend it on stuff I use in real life.

Like swords and crowbars?

Originally posted by Ianus
Yeah, same here. Haven't had the spare change to buy the DVD. I'd rather spend it on stuff I use in real life.

GL Basically says that Mace was kicking Sidious' ass fair and square until Anakin chopped his paw off.

Unless George Lucas and the Databank are BOTH wrong!

Sounds about right, Lucas has been wrong in the past.

1999
Lucas: Jar Jar Binks will be a huge hit
Rick: Yes he will!

Yes, both.

Originally posted by Sorgo
GL Basically says that Mace was kicking Sidious' ass fair and square until Anakin chopped his paw off.

Unless George Lucas and the Databank are BOTH wrong!

No. It said Mace eventually overpowered Sidious. Obi-Wan did the same with Anakin. Is that kicking his ass? Mace won, fair and square. But his ass, he did not kick. His lightsaber, he did.

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
Sounds about right, Lucas has been wrong in the past.

1999
Lucas: Jar Jar Binks will be a huge hit
Rick: Yes he will!

That's an assumption. That's the difference.

In this situation, George is TELLING you that Mace won.

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s28/smiliegenerator_test.png

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