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I sorry but it has been my belief ever since I first saw the prequels that the Jedi Order had got it wrong regarding the Force. My reason for believing this is simple. You see we know that the Force has two sides, light and dark. Now as both sides exist, then both sides need expression. Because the Jedi only use the light side, the Sith had to exist in order for the Dark Side to find expression. However when the Sith finally destroyed the Jedi Order the light side of the Force no longer had expression, hence the Return of the Jedi.

Tell me what you think.

No... their view is not flawed at all. The Balanced way to use the Force is the Light Side. The Dark Side is the corrupted, evil and incorrct way.

It all depends on how you use it. I don't believe there is two forces, just one. The Jedi were a little tight on what powers they used, and they really could have used some of the powers that the sith lords used, just for good instead of evil. Their view was a little off but not bad. It is proven to us that the whole force can be used without doing evil in ROTJ.

How, exactly?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
How, exactly?
In ROTJ Luke defeated Vader by using the Dark Side but he didn't surrender himself to it, like the Sith do. Fear of losing his sister, led to hatred of Vader which gave him anger and thus the strength to beat Vader. In essence he was using the Dark side in defeating Vader and the Light Side in showing mercy by not killing him once he was disarmed.

Both sides of the Force were used...balance.

There is an old saying: "If you walk on a dark highway. Walk on either left or the right side. If you walk in the middle, a car will strike you sooner than you realize."

Luke didn't actually give into the Dark Side.

But defeating Vader was barren road. That whole incident was very un-Jedi like UNTIL he threw away his lightsabre.

In fact, that whole scene only went to prove that the Jedi are right.

The Dark Side can NEVER be balanced- it is the force of unbalance. That is a canonical fact given by GL himself.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Luke didn't actually give into the Dark Side.

But defeating Vader was barren road. That whole incident was very un-Jedi like UNTIL he threw away his lightsabre.
I agree it was, as I said before, and he needed to be 'un-Jedi' in order to win. But yes he didn't give into the Dark Side only used it.

I don't think that the Jedi are wrong just only partially right. It's wrong to impose your will on the Force like the Sith, but it is also wrong to lose your own free will to that of the Force. You must learn to strike a balance between these two extremes.

Who said anything about Jedi losing free will to the Force? That's just not a factor.

luke DID give into the darkside. it was his reasoning and mental connection between his mech hand and vader's that allowed him to see the truth of what he was becoming. the guy was foaming at the mouth ffs. thats far beyond 'un-Jedi'.

and GL stated that balance is restored when the sith is destroyed.
do not think of it as a scale, with light and darksides on each ends.
'balance' really means a lack of turmoil and chaos in the force...a lack of control from a sith. the darkside however is still in tact. the only difference is nobody is exploiting it in order to control everything.

as far as the balance of good and evil, that will always be. even after the empire is destroyed, its safe to assume that there are still mafias and slavery, and suffering/oppression, or else why should the jedi exist?

for a thousand years the jedi were needed as guardians/diplomats/law enforcers, and without the sith as an enemy.

The Jedi does not only serve as guardians of the balance in the galaxy, but they are a path of enlightment so they would still have a purpose even in a safe galaxy.

not really. the jedi dont teach others how to use the force. they really dont seem to push anything onto the common people. all they seem to do is use their influence to keep the peace, and kick ass if they have to. i dont see any more to what they do.

They train people how to use the force, thats what they do Temple of Coruscant, and it is a "temple", and religions have temples so they are a path to enlightment. That how the Jedi are generally seem in SW, if it was in other way they would be just soldiers with supernatural powers.

no, they DONT enlighten others.
they assimilate those who can use the force,
who in turn become jedi. thats not spreading the faith,
thats recruitment.

Well, GL based the Jedi philosophy, and history in Shaolin monks own philosophy, and history, Jedi philosophy is like buddhism in many aspects, if they were soldiers why they have a philosophy like to not give himselves to hatred, to become one with the force, etc. Anyway this debate could do a nice thread.

would you compare Jedi to Shaolin, Samurai, Knights of the Round Table, etc?

I've always thought they were like feudal Samurai...protecting their own country and then turned on by the very people they want to protect. The fact they prefer sabers over guns echoes the message in the Last Samurai (yes...kinda lame movie to compare..but I actually liked that movie).

At the same time, they were like Shaolin with the whole sect, etc.....cept I don't think Shaolin were guardians.

That "Balancing of the Force" thing is out of whack to people.

When people think of balance, they think of both sides being even on a scale.

When in the movies, "Balance of the Force," means...stability. You can't be balanced without it. And the Dark always comes in and DEstabilises everything, so hence, it's unbalanced.

The Dark Side of the Force doesn't destablize, it's the people who use it for their own selfish and evil means that do that.

The Dark Side according to GL is the most powerful side however there is a belief that power corrupts. Those of you who have read Frank Herbert's God Emporer of Dune may remember Leto II saying that it's more the case that "Power attracts the corruptible" which essentially what the Sith consist of - the corruptible, and they're the ones who destablize the balance, because of who and what they are willing to sacrifice in order to get what they want.

The mistake is to confuse the Dark Side of the Force for the Sith, they are not the same thing.

Exactly, I agree with the above poster. The Sith cause imbalance, yes, but the Sith aren't the only thing on the Dark Side of the Force. In the Expanded Universe, for example, there were still Dark Jedi, whilst not Sith. While this isn't necessarily canon, it still supports my views.

Anyway, yes. "The Sith" is a belief of sorts, a way of looking at the Force, a thing to be practiced. You can be a Jedi and be evil, hence a Dark Jedi, and not follow the practitions of the Sith, see.

but luke did use the dark side of the force... he used force choke in return of the jedi... he choked 2 gamoreans on his way into jabbas palace...

And isnt a perfect balance a Grey Jedi...? Like Jolee Bindo. that guy kicks ass.

Originally posted by Dirk Jade
And isnt a perfect balance a Grey Jedi...? Like Jolee Bindo. that guy kicks ass.

nope.. Grey jedi are stupid and the people using the force for wrong purposes is the imbalance. So after the last sith were gone, the force was balanced again. This is not like Yin/Yang, grey jedi aren't the balance.

Sure they are. I still maintain there is only one force and more then that, Luke HAD to use the dark side to win. If he hadn't, he'd have died, the emperor and vader woudl have had more then enough time to escape the death star, and hunt down leia for the next sith.

No they aren't, and that is simply a fact. Balance = Jedi.

And using the Dark Side did not help Luke one tiny tiny bit. He could never have beaten the Emperor. The power that brought victory was nothing to do with the Dark Side at all; overpowering Vader had, if anything, negative value.

But technically Luke did not use the darkside. He used force choke, which is just another use of the regular force. The dark side is only dark when you use it for evil things.

The power that brought victory was nothing to do with the Light Side at all;

This is incorrect. Vader turned to the good side and defeated the Emperor. It had everything to do with the good side.

Vader picked him up off the ground.
He did it with one hand and one stub
He did it while the emperor was spewing lightning from his fingers.
He threw him up over his head.
He did it while the lightning zapped him.

I don't think anyone but a Jedi using the Force could have done such a powerful thing.

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant it had nothing to do with the Dark Side; I was refuting earlier comments that the Dark Side brought victory.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant it had nothing to do with the Dark Side; I was refuting earlier comments that the Dark Side brought victory.
I agree and disagree, sure Vader used his jedi powers to defeat the Emporer but his reasons for doing it were based on not wanting to break the emotional attachment he had towards his son.

according to the Jedi code emotional attachments (well infact all forms of attachments) are forbidden. and the use of the force that is based on emotional feelings is Dark side.

Well, I'd say that the Jedi practice the ways of the Force better and more properly than the Sith do, but there is a problem. The Sith indulge in whatever they want, and I don't see them as hypocrites, whereas the Jedi are.

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes." - Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Then how is it that the Sith are absolutely evil in the Jedi's eyes?