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Personally I don't know much about him, however, from what I've read above, he seems to be on the ball regarding the "reality" that America currently faces having gone to war with Iraq. Unfortunately as usual, someone who points the truth of the problem, is somehow labeled as "Un American", and has their credibility attacked.

The sad thing is..when the "fit" really begins to hit the "shan"...I can gaurantee many prominent Republicans and Democrats who supported the war will be MIA. I'm sure most of them already have some sort of refuge set up if the war starts to take place on American soil.

What are the expectations of the public and what is are the expectations of the gov't? Start there and everything else is kinda inbetween.

I have met with several people some reserves some political and its amazing to hear the spread on reality to those involved vs those who choose to engage this.

Originally posted by PVS
what are your opinions on murtha?

My opinion is that if Murtha is going to say all this stuff he should have joined the 3 people in the House who voted for a troop withdrawl from Iraq.

Originally posted by PVS
CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Leaders of Iraq's sharply divided Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis called Monday for a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S.-led forces in the country and said Iraq's opposition had a ``legitimate right'' of resistance.


Oooohh, ouch! WTF?! That's saying a lot more than just the words that spell it out.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oooohh, ouch! WTF?! That's saying a lot more than just the words that spell it out.

What's even worse, is...I wonder how many news channels will report this?

Originally posted by Echuu
My opinion is that if Murtha is going to say all this stuff he should have joined the 3 people in the House who voted for a troop withdrawl from Iraq.

After troops have already invaded and ****ed the infrastructure? Go it the American Way!

Originally posted by Trickster
After troops have already invaded and ****ed the infrastructure? Go it the American Way!

I think you missed my point.

Originally posted by Trickster
After troops have already invaded and ****ed the infrastructure? Go it the American Way!



um Yeah the infrastructure there is crap. Yeah know about 4 years ago I would say just bomb them to a parking lot! Now I look at pictures that haven't even been attacked and think OMG that looks like a sunny bright mining camp from Alaskan gold rush days! They have no infrastructure to speak of.

All the polls in Rep John Murtha's presentation amounts to crap unless I can look at poll data. We do need an exit strategy. Most of what is being said by the "Leadership" in Iraq best benefits themselves as schools in Iraq are almost nil and who cares about unemplyment when they have no infrastructure to speak of and education whats that supposed to amount to?

USA get out of Iraq good idea we are not going to make that a New Middle Eastern USA. ALOT of what Rep John Murtha said otherwise was crap.

Originally posted by soleran30

USA get out of Iraq good idea we are not going to make that a New Middle Eastern USA. ALOT of what Rep John Murtha said otherwise was crap.

and can you quote what you feel is 'crap'

PVS thats such a lang post I am kinda surprised I even read it all. I do agree we need an action plan to decide our role in the middle-east.

Most of what Murtha said was more politcal look what I can do B.S. for instance....

-To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces. (Please in Laymens terms and not more fluff)

-To create a quick reaction force in the region. (Once again is this with a "strike" force ie marines? Or Army they both have significantly different roles in "war" and this would give me MAYBE a better idea)

-To create an over-the-horizon presence of Marines. (Please define what over-the-horizon means)

-To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq.(Total suck arse BS....this has been done for decades supposedly and due to religious factions this is impossible so force/police are required to even attempt this)

"This war needs to be personalized. As I said before, I have visited with the severely wounded of this war. They are suffering. (This was the lamest comment I have read seriously the wounded are suffering? What does he mean personalize is he going to arms?)

"Because we in Congress are charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle, it is our responsibility, our obligation, to speak out for them. That's why I am speaking out. (I sincerly doubt many if ANY of congress has children in the front line typical of all politicians)

"Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything ( The military's job is to do what we ask of them how does he know we cannot accomplish anything?)

Sloppy but thats a few pieces alot of other open ended comments smothered in politcal BS sauce as well but not worth it right now.

I have long said that the insurgency is largly due to US occupation and would decrease greatly after troops leave. We shouldnt have gone in the first place.

Originally posted by soleran30

Most of what Murtha said was more politcal look what I can do B.S. for instance....

-To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces. (Please in Laymens terms and not more fluff)

-To create a quick reaction force in the region. (Once again is this with a "strike" force ie marines? Or Army they both have significantly different roles in "war" and this would give me MAYBE a better idea)

-To create an over-the-horizon presence of Marines. (Please define what over-the-horizon means)


the guy is just saying we should have troops ready to go in the area, in case it gets out of control. as opposed to walking the streets where everyone hates them. i think they would certainly be safe that way....everyone would be safe in fact.

Originally posted by soleran30

-To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq.(Total suck arse BS....this has been done for decades supposedly and due to religious factions this is impossible so force/police are required to even attempt this)

yes, but how exactly are we helping to solve this by being there?

Originally posted by soleran30
"This war needs to be personalized. As I said before, I have visited with the severely wounded of this war. They are suffering. (This was the lamest comment I have read seriously the wounded are suffering? What does he mean personalize is he going to arms?)

could be that he's vietnam veteran and know's a no-win war when he sees one? could just mean he visited with wounded soldiers (not too hard to find unfortunately)

Originally posted by soleran30
"Because we in Congress are charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle, it is our responsibility, our obligation, to speak out for them. That's why I am speaking out. (I sincerly doubt many if ANY of congress has children in the front line typical of all politicians)

"Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything ( The military's job is to do what we ask of them how does he know we cannot accomplish anything?)

he meant that we overthrew saddam hussein. that was their mission. their next mission was to help stabilise iraq. since our troops are now hated and seen as enemy occupiers, they are unable to help in that respect. its a stalemate and only bound to get far far worse. if you dont think in the right/left politicising mode, you can see that he only spoke the simple truth. this war is lost. you cant 'win' a war against the general population. never happened (without genocide involved) and never will

Ok well obviously I have a rather Jaded view of most politicians and their statements regardless of intent for the USA. This is simply because in my opinion the only war this guy needs to win is in congress, public speeches and announcements are fluff to me.


Some of the other things he has mentioned are insugents and things along those lines and we cannot win because of this is. Personally the longer this war continues and phrases are used more and more we will become more sensitive to them. IF we are in this war then once again in my opinion we need a clear strategy and it could take up to three years anyway

Originally posted by ESP07
I have long said that the insurgency is largly due to US occupation and would decrease greatly after troops leave. We shouldnt have gone in the first place.

And when we leave the terrorists are going to attack us in the United States of America on our soil and in our cities.

Originally posted by Echuu
And when we leave the terrorists are going to attack us in the United States of America on our soil and in our cities.

they will attack anyway.

the more we stay there, the more we will be hated, and thus more terrorists.
i dont understand the mentallity of staying there when CLEARLY we have done NOT A THING to stop global terrorism and have only managed to give it the means to spread. the world is less safe now because of this. nothing good can come out of staying. and saying "well if we get attacked its all your fault" is like saying "well if it rains its all your fault". really, we're going to face threats regardless.

for the life of me, i fail to see how turning iraq from a dictatorship into a chaotic terrorist breeding shithole was a wise choice and makes us safer.

Originally posted by PVS
they will attack anyway.

the more we stay there, the more we will be hated, and thus more terrorists.
i dont understand the mentallity of staying there when CLEARLY we have done NOT A THING to stop global terrorism and have only managed to give it the means to spread. the world is less safe now because of this. nothing good can come out of staying. and saying "well if we get attacked its all your fault" is like saying "well if it rains its all your fault". really, we're going to face threats regardless.

for the life of me, i fail to see how turning iraq from a dictatorship into a chaotic terrorist breeding shithole was a wise choice and makes us safer.

lol Iraq already was a 'terrorist breeding shithole' when we came in there. The terrorists are obviously going to try and attack us at home when we are over there but so far nothing has succeeded(though I'm sure many a Dem would have been happy if Bush was assassinated) and our troops have made a lot of progress.

Now think reasonably... if the Middle East is a breeding ground for terrorism shouldn't we take steps to change the middle east? I'm not saying invade every country and push them around. Since the Iraq/Afghan war we have seen government changes in Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria. If we can cement the work in Iraq and Afghaistan maybe even Iran will change their ways without any military involvement.

Originally posted by PVS
they will attack anyway.

the more we stay there, the more we will be hated, and thus more terrorists.
i dont understand the mentallity of staying there when CLEARLY we have done NOT A THING to stop global terrorism and have only managed to give it the means to spread. the world is less safe now because of this. nothing good can come out of staying. and saying "well if we get attacked its all your fault" is like saying "well if it rains its all your fault". really, we're going to face threats regardless.

for the life of me, i fail to see how turning iraq from a dictatorship into a chaotic terrorist breeding shithole was a wise choice and makes us safer.

Yeah know at the end of the day your comment "really, we're going to face threats regardless." can be said about having troops in that region. So if we pull out terrorism will somehow stop or diminish, I don't think this is a reasonable expectation from that course of action.

I would like to see how the polls were created and the questions were asked and basically the demographics of the polls to better understand who really hates us in the middle east. From my limited perspective (pictures taken from national guard troops in my region and shared) I haven't seen as much hate as the media portrays. So perhaps the people screaming the loudest are the leaders of the groups that want us out of there so they can regain their power and put more of their people down.

However I am for removal of US troops in my perspective to finish our "secondary" mission of taking out terrorism (isn't going to happen) its still going to take 3 years. We have MAJOR restorations going on in that country rebuilding and even building in the middle east.

Originally posted by Echuu
lol Iraq already was a 'terrorist breeding shithole' when we came in there. The terrorists are obviously going to try and attack us at home when we are over there but so far nothing has succeeded(though I'm sure many a Dem would have been happy if Bush was assassinated) and our troops have made a lot of progress.

please, can we have a discussion without the "ZOMG LOLZ" nonesense?
bush and company have openly admitted that they were wrong about ties between iraq and global terrorism when saddam was in power. yet they somehow still manage to dupe people into thinking there was a link. and as far as anyone bush or ANY president to be assassinated, what an immature and reckless comment. the troops are unable to make progress. they are in a meat grinder dying every day in a war against a general population of insurgents.


Originally posted by Echuu
Now think reasonably... if the Middle East is a breeding ground for terrorism shouldn't we take steps to change the middle east? I'm not saying invade every country and push them around. Since the Iraq/Afghan war we have seen government changes in Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria. If we can cement the work in Iraq and Afghaistan maybe even Iran will change their ways without any military involvement.

well thats such a pretty and flowery scenario, almost like communism.
we'll create a paradise for them at gunpoint and others will fall in line with joy.
in fact, we will not have to 'invade' but would rather be 'welcome as liberators'
please save the utopia theories for fairy tales.

the whole point is that we WILL NOT WIN THE WAR. thats the fact.
its not "i dont want us to win the war" or "you should not want us to win the war"
so lets just sober up from all the right/left nonesense and look at "what is happening" rather then "what we want to happen"

we are losing the war in afghanistan. the taliban are not "on the run" and we have not "smoked them outta their holes". maybe if we directed the resources where they belonged...IN AFGHANISTAN...where the guy who actually DID attack us and kill thousands of americans still relaxes in his bunker/cave sipping espresso and laughs in our faces...but that wont happen and mr. bin laden will die of old age.

thats reality

Originally posted by Echuu
And when we leave the terrorists are going to attack us in the United States of America on our soil and in our cities.

That's right, just like Iraq did on Sept. 11, 2001, right?


Look, bottom line, the quote I pointed out in my first response is saying:

"Thanks for the memories, we've had fun and all, but it's really time you pick one fundamentalist, jihad religious group over another and financially support it until we have enough experience under our belts to start gasing our own citizens, again."

This one quote, in my opinion, is the very defining expression of their opinion of our presence in their country. I hate to believe that Saddam was the twist tie on a garbage bag of shit that exists in that country. But, it seems to be true. And, when the shit in the bag wants to hit the fan, it needs it's restraints removed to do so. And that's just what we've done.

I'm not arguing the merrits of an obviously bad man. He was, but he was a bad man that we supported for many years, and then like a lamb on the alter, we scarificed him for our own agenda.*

*we/our = Bush and co.

Originally posted by PVS
WILL NOT WIN THE WAR

So be it.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I hate to believe that Saddam was the twist tie on a garbage bag of shit that exists in that country.

such an ugly metaphore...yet so true imho

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
That's right, just like Iraq did on Sept. 11, 2001, right?


Look, bottom line, the quote I pointed out in my first response is saying:

"Thanks for the memories, we've had fun and all, but it's really time you pick one fundamentalist, jihad religious group over another and financially support it until we have enough experience under our belts to start gasing our own citizens, again."

This one quote, in my opinion, is the very defining expression of their opinion of our presence in their country. I hate to believe that Saddam was the twist tie on a garbage bag of shit that exists in that country. But, it seems to be true. And, when the shit in the bag wants to hit the fan, it needs it's restraints removed to do so. And that's just what we've done.

I'm not arguing the merrits of an obviously bad man. He was, but he was a bad man that we supported for many years, and then like a lamb on the alter, we scarificed him for our own agenda.*

*we/our = Bush and co.

Sorry When did Iraq attack the US?

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Sorry When did Iraq attack the US?


Exactly...

The day they took our commercial airplanes and on crashed in Pennsylvania the other one in the Pentagon and another one flown into the New York towers. Sept 11th seems like an aggressive military action to me.

Originally posted by soleran30
The day they took our commercial airplanes and on landed in Pennsylvania the other one in the Pentagon and another one flown into the New York towers. Sept 11th

yes, the iraqis did. although everyone says they didnt, including bush/cheney...but apparently you know better.

Originally posted by PVS
yes, the iraqis did. although everyone says they didnt, including bush/cheney...but apparently you know better.

So that was the Iraqis - I don't know better but I thought it was Al Queda - Are they the Iraqis?

I guess I am no longer on ignore - If I ever was

Originally posted by PVS
yes, the iraqis did. although everyone says they didnt, including bush/cheney...but apparently you know better.

I say slap a business man in the whitehouse as president......make him write a business plan.....plain english no fluff and make it so that for all other activites involving US resources are done in the same fashion!

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Exactly...

Ahh I see.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
So that was the Iraqis - I don't know better but I thought it was Al Queda - Are they the Iraqis?


Thats a good question Sir Whirlysplat and I would like to give you the floor to answer your own question........

Originally posted by soleran30
Thats a good question Sir Whirlysplat and I would like to give you the floor to answer your own question........

I know their leader is not he is a Saudi by way of Afghanastan and his family are friends with the Bush family.

Originally posted by soleran30
The day they took our commercial airplanes and on crashed in Pennsylvania the other one in the Pentagon and another one flown into the New York towers. Sept 11th seems like an aggressive military action to me.

Most of all the terrorists that day were Saudi Arabian. No Iraqis were involved whatsoever.

Soleran30, after making such a statement I believe that the buren of proof now lays upon you to show Iraq's involvement with sept 11th or retract your statement.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Most of all the terrorists that day were Saudi Arabian. No Iraqis were involved whatsoever.

Soleran30, after making such a statement I believe that the buren of proof now lays upon you to show Iraq's involvement with sept 11th or retract your statement.


haha well since it cannot be edited I must say I was incorrect! Iraqi's didn't attack USA ........BAM and now I get my humble pie right before thanks giving......lol

Originally posted by soleran30
haha well since it cannot be edited I must say I was incorrect! Iraqi's didn't attack USA ........BAM and now I get my humble pie right before thanks giving......lol

at least you had the stones to admit you were wrong.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
at least you had the stones to admit you were wrong.

agreed respect Soleran90

and how did we punish the nation's leaders for harboring known terrorists...as bush assured everyone?