Scarlet Witch vs the Celestials?

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Crimson Phoenix
This is uber house of m wanda. How would she fair against the celestials?

the Darkone
Depends which one she fights, If she fights Exitar, One Above All, Arishem she will get murder.

demigawd
SW wins with ease. She's not a reality warper...she's a reality manipulator on a multiversal scale.

the Darkone
So are those three, Exitar alone is on the same level as a normal galactus. Exitar alone will kill her.

Maestro
In the title it says 'celestials', so i presume scarlet witch vs the whole race, which she would evidently get murdered, regenerated,murdered and so on. She still loses to a single celestial to be honest.

Dizzle
Originally posted by demigawd
SW wins with ease. She's not a reality warper...she's a reality manipulator on a multiversal scale.

Wait, she effected everything, including alternate realities and such? What the f**k? I think not. Any celestial eats her soul.

Maestro
She doesn't have power on a multiversal scale, otherwise LT would of blinked her out of existence because she would of been a threat to the multiverse due to her mental status at the time.

Dizzle
Exactly. Wanda's much more of a "universal" type. Though actually... I dunno if her control reached into cosmic type people at all. Celestials eat her soul.

Maestro
mmmmmmmm soul droolio

demigawd
You guys obviously didn't read the Uncanny issues of HoM. She threatened all existence - the entire omniverse.

Tell me....what reality warping feats do Celestials have? Name some.

SW blinks the entire Celestial race out of existence.

Maestro
Originally posted by demigawd
You guys obviously didn't read the Uncanny issues of HoM. She threatened all existence - the entire omniverse.

Tell me....what reality warping feats do Celestials have? Name some.

SW blinks the entire Celestial race out of existence.

Did you not read my post about LT?

demigawd
Originally posted by Maestro
Did you not read my post about LT?

I read it...so what? LT didn't get involved in the Phoenix Saga, where the M'Kraan Crystal was going to destroy the multiverse. He didn't get involved in AOA, where the M'Kraan Crystal was again going to destroy the omniverse, he didn't get involved in the Dark Phoenix saga, didn't get involved in the Infinity Wars. To be honest...what DOES he get involved in, aside from a failed attempt to stop Thanos with HOTU?

Roma, the OMNIVERSAL guardian took responsibility to try to solve the situation because Wanda's Chaos Wave was going to destroy ALL CREATION...including the White Hot Room - you know, where Phoenix lives.

Sorry guys, SW operates on a level far beyond the Celestials. I challenge you to name feats, because my guess is that all of you know about Celestials by reputation only.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd


Wanda's Chaos Wave was going to destroy ALL CREATION...including the White Hot Room - you know, where Phoenix lives.


Nowhere in House of M did it state that. Nowhere. Roma said that the wave could expand affecting everything perhaps up to the ascension. She then clarifies by saying all creation could possibly collapse into a blob. So no i dont see where you got the idea that the White Hot Room could have been destroyed.

Also Wanda by all accounts warps reality on a universal scale but the negative effects of her tamperings spilled over into Otherworld because she accidentally ripped a hole in the brane between 616 and Otherworld and it is well documented (The M'Kraan crystal stories) that when the doorways between realities are left open the the exchange and interaction between matter sparks off a destructive wave that if allowed to spill over into alternate realities will eventually collapse creation. The chaos wave wasnt Wandas power. It was the result of her actions (i.e the breach she caused), however it didnt derive from her it wasnt a manifestation of her power. Wanda warped 616. Impressive but certainly no indication of multiversal power.

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nowhere in House of M did it state that. Nowhere. Roma said that the wave could expand affecting everything perhaps up to the ascension. She then clarifies by saying all creation could possibly collapse into a blob. So no i dont see where you got the idea that the White Hot Room could have been destroyed.


Ascension = White Hot Room. They're both the origin point of creation. The Throne of God. EVERYTHING was threatened.



If she could accidentally rip a hole into other realities, then she could intentionally do it, meaning that her power could reach other realities and universes. The Chaos Wave was generated by Scarlet Witch. Think about it - it's called a Chaos Wave and Wanda was known for her Chaos Magic. She created it of her own power and used that chaos wave to change reality - that wave went to other realities but because she had no intent for any realities except her own, the chaos wave caused sheer destruction instead. When the breach was sealed, it sealed the effects of the chaos wave to the intended reality.

In any case, it's beyond anything the Celestials are capable of.

leonidas
i think demi's right in at least one regard: in terms of pure in-book feats, the celestials have not shown any ability to warp reality -- destroying a universe isn't really the saem thing, i don't think. they were able to eliminate all traces of the visit to earth, but i don't think that fully qualifies either. clearly they possess ENORMOUS power, but warping reality? i don't know . . .

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Ascension = White Hot Room. They're both the origin point of creation. The Throne of God. EVERYTHING was threatened.

Nope. Roma said it could expand and consume everything UP TO the ascension. She never said including the ascension which would be a bit ridiculous Demi. She then clarified by saying creation would collapse into a Blob. So no there was no indication or conclusive statement saying that the white hot room could potentially be destroyed or was even threatened



Originally posted by demigawd
If she could accidentally rip a hole into other realities, then she could intentionally do it, meaning that her power could reach other realities and universes. The Chaos Wave was generated by Scarlet Witch. Think about it - it's called a Chaos Wave and Wanda was known for her Chaos Magic. She created it of her own power and used that chaos wave to change reality - that wave went to other realities but because she had no intent for any realities except her own, the chaos wave caused sheer destruction instead. When the breach was sealed, it sealed the effects of the chaos wave to the intended reality.

I agree she could probably intentionally rip a whole in a brane however its that action which would set off the chaos wave. It wasnt stated anywhere in House of M that the Chaos wave was generated by Wanda so you're just making assumptions. However it was stated that Wandas manipulations caused a breach and that as a result a" trans temoral tsunami" has been unleashed and could possibly expand enough to collapse the multiverse. Given that the M'kraan stories document a wave being unleashed if the doors between realities are left open, given that theres no mention anywhere that the wave was generated by Wanda as opposed to just being the result of her actions you can hardly use that as a feat to support her in debate. The alteration of 616 however is very much available.

Originally posted by demigawd
In any case, it's beyond anything the Celestials are capable of.

Possibly. Cube beings can warp reality on a global scale and the Celestials as stated are exponentially more powerful than them. Young Franklin Richards can create pocket universes and at full potential can equal a Celestial in power. Given Wandas mental state and the fact that her abilities and their application had to be coordinated by her brother and Xavier i dont believe she could face a Celestial like Exitar.

GalacticStorm
Damn its against the whole race i didnt see that. In that case i really dont think she could given her mental state and the fact that she required aid to pull off House of M.

leonidas
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Possibly. Cube beings can warp reality on a global scale and the Celestials as stated are exponentially more powerful than them. Young Franklin Richards can create pocket universes and at full potential can equal a Celestial in power. Given Wandas mental state and the fact that her abilities and their application had to be coordinated by her brother and Xavier i dont believe she could face a Celestial like Exitar.

i agree celestials are supposed to be above some of these great reality warpers so clearly it would follow that they could resist the affects of reality warpers. finding PROOF they can do this is tough because of ltd appearances. come to think of it, didn't the dreaming celestial warp reality in some way? can't recall the details . . .

in any event, i agree with gs -- against the whole race i find it difficult to believe she could win.

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Roma said it could expand and consume everything UP TO the ascension. She never said including the ascension which would be a bit ridiculous Demi. She then clarified by saying creation would collapse into a Blob. So no there was no indication or conclusive statement saying that the white hot room could potentially be destroyed or was even threatened


Are you kidding me? Roma said, "The chaos wave will reach the Ascension itself". She didn't say, "It'll reach everything up to but not including the Ascension", and she didn't imply it, either. If she says the Chaos wave will reach the Ascension itself, that means, well, that it's going to reach the Ascension itself. You're reaching here, GS. When she says creation will collapse into a blob....the Phoenix and the White Hot Room are part of creation. They were created. It'll all collapse.



A breach in reality by itself doesn't cause a problem. You're incorrectly equating Japfh's statement about the M'Kraan Crystal with Roma's statement. A cracked doorway to realities within the M'Kraan Crystal will cause a blinking out of reality. But a cracked doorway between realties will not. In fact, they're quite commonplace. The Entire Man-Thing run revolved around random openings between realities that needed to be safeguarded. In Exiles, the control center was built over a fissure in realities, which is how they're able to travel through realities. So breaks exist - the problem was the chaos wave WANDA was generating that was escaping that reality. That's what makes THAT break unique.



Wanda, as proven, goes beyond a global scale. She altered the entire 616 - including its timeline. That even includes contact with beings such as Galactus and the extra-dimensional pantheon gods.

Secondly, the Celestials aren't stated as being "exponentially" more powerful. Kubik said to stay way from Celestials because their power exceeds even theirs. Don't exaggerate.

So using circumstantial evidence would, at best, but Celestials on par with Wanda....but direct evidence (actual feats) puts Wanda solidly above them.



Creating a pocket universe isn't much compared to re-creating the existing universe. And even Franklin's feat exceeds anything a Celestial has shown...remember how long it took for a Celestial to UNDO what Franklin did? They had to boil the seas to try to get rid of the Earth! They had to end of sacrificing one of their own just to maintain the pocket universe. I'd put him at full potential far beyond them, too.

Wanda's mental state is a question, but her application wasn't coordinated by her brother - he just came up with the idea. She listened. So what?

demigawd
Originally posted by leonidas
i agree celestials are supposed to be above some of these great reality warpers so clearly it would follow that they could resist the affects of reality warpers. finding PROOF they can do this is tough because of ltd appearances. come to think of it, didn't the dreaming celestial warp reality in some way? can't recall the details . . .

in any event, i agree with gs -- against the whole race i find it difficult to believe she could win.

I find it easy to believe. The celestials combat feats are all physical in nature - for all their power, in combat, it comes down to inflicting physical damage. Against the Destroyer - massive energy blasts. Against Thanos with IG? Throwing planets. No multi-plane, cross-dimensional, billion plane of existence type attacks like the abstracts did. Wanda has already shown that she's beyond physical attacks - what are the Celestials going to do among their PROVEN arsenal?

Beyonder
Celestials win.

leonidas
Originally posted by demigawd
I find it easy to believe. The celestials combat feats are all physical in nature - for all their power, in combat, it comes down to inflicting physical damage. Against the Destroyer - massive energy blasts. Against Thanos with IG? Throwing planets. No multi-plane, cross-dimensional, billion plane of existence type attacks like the abstracts did. Wanda has already shown that she's beyond physical attacks - what are the Celestials going to do among their PROVEN arsenal?

they HAVE shown indications of psionic abilities in the past -- mind-wiping earth, putting thoughts in the minds of skyfathers, creating barriers between dimensions. they are also master geneticists. i wonder if they coul psionically alter her dna to make her a non-mutant? and again, they have been shown to be beyond many reality warpers so they must have some resistance to these types of attacks.

however, i also admitted that proven feats are ltd when it comes to celestials, so i can't make TOO much of an argument on their behalf.

i am curious though about something else -- your interpretatin of HoM events would seem to indicate that you feel wanda can actually destroy/supercede a manifestation of "god's/toaa's" (ie - you seem to think she could have destroyed the pf). IS that what you are implying?

Beyonder
Celestials win.

She's still human. They step on her and she's dead. No kidding. If it comes down to anything, there's more of them then her, and so they'll more often than not kill her before she could do anything.

*Only entertaining the idea that she could hurt them and that she actually affected the universe, much less the multiverse or omniverse*

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Are you kidding me? Roma said, "The chaos wave will reach the Ascension itself". She didn't say, "It'll reach everything up to but not including the Ascension", and she didn't imply it, either. If she says the Chaos wave will reach the Ascension itself, that means, well, that it's going to reach the Ascension itself. You're reaching here, GS. When she says creation will collapse into a blob....the Phoenix and the White Hot Room are part of creation. They were created. It'll all collapse.

Roma says " The chaos wave will keep expanding along the sidereal string......perhaps to the ascension"


She doesnt conclusively say the chaos wave will consume the white hot room. She speculates that the wave will consume everything up to the white hot room. Given that as well documented the white hot room is beyond creation and given that she goes on to say that the effect of the wave will be that creation will collapse into a blob i really cant see youre interpretation as being the more likely.

The White Hot Room is beyond Creation. Theres a reason why its called the Crown Demi and thats because it sits above and beyond creation. On top of it. We witnessed this in New X-men 154 and we saw in Uncanny 462 how everything was just fine in the white hot room. Phoenix was not created Demi. It is the power of creation its a level of consciousness that brings about union with God. It manifests into creation as the Big Bang or via the minds of sentient beings.


Originally posted by demigawd
A breach in reality by itself doesn't cause a problem. You're incorrectly equating Japfh's statement about the M'Kraan Crystal with Roma's statement. A cracked doorway to realities within the M'Kraan Crystal will cause a blinking out of reality. But a cracked doorway between realties will not. In fact, they're quite commonplace. The Entire Man-Thing run revolved around random openings between realities that needed to be safeguarded. In Exiles, the control center was built over a fissure in realities, which is how they're able to travel through realities. So breaks exist - the problem was the chaos wave WANDA was generating that was escaping that reality. That's what makes THAT break unique.

It wasnt stated anywhere in any way shape or form that Wanda generated the Wave herself. It was just stated that her manipulations breached the walls between realities and as a result a chaos wave expanded through the multiverse.

In Gambit and the Xternals it was stated that the M'kraan keeps the doors between realities shut and that if one were to be breached a draft effect would pass through collapsing creation. Thats too similar to discount and given that there was no mention of the wave being generated by Wanda you cant use it as a feat of hers. All we know conclusively is that her actions triggered it.


Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda, as proven, goes beyond a global scale. She altered the entire 616 - including its timeline. That even includes contact with beings such as Galactus and the extra-dimensional pantheon gods.

I agree she affected reality on a universal scale. Thats her feat

Originally posted by demigawd
Secondly, the Celestials aren't stated as being "exponentially" more powerful. Kubik said to stay way from Celestials because their power exceeds even theirs. Don't exaggerate.

Who's exaggerating?:

http://img492.imageshack.us/img492/3746/cels5lx.th.jpg

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/1443/1cels3pw.th.jpg


They are stated to be as nothing to the Celestials. Then its made clear that a Celestial could crush a cube being.

Originally posted by demigawd
So using circumstantial evidence would, at best, but Celestials on par with Wanda....but direct evidence (actual feats) puts Wanda solidly above them.

We're talking about the race of Celestials Demi who gathered together are without a doubt beyond Wanda if young Franklin Richard at full potential is stated to equal a Celestial in power. Just look at what he's done at such a young age.



Originally posted by demigawd
Creating a pocket universe isn't much compared to re-creating the existing universe. And even Franklin's feat exceed anything a Celestial has shown...I'd him at full potential beyond them, too.

It doesnt match Wandas feat but given that he was only about 7 its completely feasible that he will at the very least be equal to her in power. Given that his potential is actually stated to be Celestial level we have to accept that. Forget the speculation.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda's mental state is a question, but her application wasn't coordinated by her brother - he just came up with the idea. She listened. So what?


Incorrect Wanda says in House of M 7 when Pietro suggests the warping that she wouldnt be able to control it. He then offers his help and as we know she got Xavier to help as well. Therefore house of M was only possible with the aid of Xavier and QS to guide and coordinate her abilities. Against a race of Celestials each one beyond a young Franklin Richards in power i really dont think she stands a chance. Its common sense.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Beyonder
Celestials win.

Agreed. Id understand the counter argument if it was a single Celestial but not against their entire race. With each one beyond a young Franklin Richards in power. confused

demigawd
Originally posted by leonidas
they HAVE shown indications of psionic abilities in the past -- mind-wiping earth, putting thoughts in the minds of skyfathers, creating barriers between dimensions. they are also master geneticists. i wonder if they coul psionically alter her dna to make her a non-mutant? and again, they have been shown to be beyond many reality warpers so they must have some resistance to these types of attacks.

however, i also admitted that proven feats are ltd when it comes to celestials, so i can't make TOO much of an argument on their behalf.

i am curious though about something else -- your interpretatin of HoM events would seem to indicate that you feel wanda can actually destroy/supercede a manifestation of "god's/toaa's" (ie - you seem to think she could have destroyed the pf). IS that what you are implying?

I don't doubt that Celestials have psionic powers....but that's still a "physical" power. It's not, for example, an assault on the soul, or by twisting fundamental universal concepts. They haven't shown powers beyond that at all.

To answer your question - I don't see the PF the way GS does. If the PF IS in fact the equivalent of the "Big Bang" or whatever, then could Wanda unmake the Big Bang? Yes. Would that constitute defeating the PF? I guess so. Could she beat Dark Phoenix, or the Phoenix who lost to Magneto, or the Phoenix who fought Galactus or the "jgg" Phoenix? Absolutely.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Celestials win.

She's still human. They step on her and she's dead. No kidding. If it comes down to anything, there's more of them then her, and so they'll more often than not kill her before she could do anything.

*Only entertaining the idea that she could hurt them and that she actually affected the universe, much less the multiverse or omniverse*

They step on her and she comes back. She then proceeds to unmake them. She showed in HoM #8 that she's beyond physical death. Unless they do something they've never shown the ability to do - unmake her - there's no way they can win. Meanwhile, they've shown a considerable vulnerability to physical harm. Wanda can simply flood them with hyperspace energies ala Sue Storm and demolish them all at once.

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Roma says " The chaos wave will keep expanding along the sidereal string......perhaps to the ascension"


She doesnt conclusively say the chaos wave will consume the white hot room. She speculates that the wave will consume everything up to the white hot room. Given that as well documented the white hot room is beyond creation and given that she goes on to say that the effect of the wave will be that creation will collapse into a blob i really cant see youre interpretation as being the more likely.


She said "to the ascension itself". Why would she bother mentioning that if she didn't mean to imply that the very Ascension was threatened??? When Hitler said he's going to conquer people from London to Moscow, he didn't mean he was going to stop just before getting to Moscow - that means INCLUDING Moscow. How can you see it any differently??



The Crown was created by TOAA, as was the Phoenix Force. It was willed into existence by TOAA. So yes, it's very much a part of creation. It sits on top of it, yes, but it's still been created at some point. And that means, like everything else, it's vulnerable to Wanda's Chaos Wave. Roma said it was going to spread to the Ascension itself. They were in the White Hot Room because the wave hadn't reached it yet. That doesn't mean it was safe if Roma's words were any indication.




Wanda generates chaos energy - it's well known. It was called Chaos Magic during Busiek's run, and Chaos Energy by Lord Templar prior to that. the nature of that energy creates unlikely scenarios (eg - CHAOS) with Wanda, in the past, having limited control. She learned to control her chaos energy by dictating the scenarios, as Strange indicated when he revealed that it's NOT Magic at all. So it's a huge stretch to suggest that Claremont, being very familiar with Wanda, would choose the term "Chaos Wave" as a coincidence. It's clear, looking at the history of reality doorways, that what's different is Wanda's chaos wave...because she's generating it.



But we also know that there are multiple doorways between realities that are independent of the M'Kraan Crystal...these doorways are always open. They tend to appear in swamps, and in the arctic (Man-Thing and Hulk). So clearly the "doorways must stay shut" thing is unique to the doorways within the M'Kraan Crystal, otherwise every open doorway would lead to destruction, and we know from Man-Thing, Exiles and Hulk that it's not the case.




Cube being powers are limited, so like I said, it makes sense that Celestials are beyond them. So what?



IIRC, the Celestials wanted to raise Franklin as one of their own....that doesn't mean that he's their equal in power, it just means that they believe they are best qualified to show Franklin his potential. the Celestials proved unable to undo what Franklin did - he's actually beyond them. Look at how many hassles they had to go through - they had to try to boil the seas of ONE PLANET AT A TIME - and it took sacrificng Asheima to maintain the planet. Why, if Franklin is considered an "equal"? The only logical answer is that Franklin is actually more powerful.

Also, just because Franklin did this at a young age doesn't at all imply that he's capable of going beyond that. Nothing at all indicates that he can become more powerful - nothing. What can improve with age is his CONTROL over his power, but not the level. There's no evidence to show otherwise.

So we have someone who has a feat beyond anything the Celestials were able to duplicate or even undo still falling short of what Wanda has done.



It's speculation to suggest that Franklin could grow more powerful than that. To think otherwise ignores the history of most mutant powers, GS. Most of the time, you're born with total access to all your powers, you just learn to control it over time. that is to say, Storm at 25 being transported to the body of Storm at 15, would have the same power level. the only difference would be in stamina. But that only applies to powers where energy projection is involved.



Untrue. Wanda was worried that she couldn't be able to do it, but QS offered his support in the form of encouragement - he told her to tap into Xavier's powers and read everybody's mind and give them what they want. Xavier wasn't consciously a part of it and QS didn't contribute anything beyond, "You can do it! I believe in you!". Re-read the issue.

So my points stand:

1)Franklin has accomplished a feat that the Celestials couldn't duplicate without working together and rendering one of their own comatose, and couldn't undo it without destroying (using lame tactics like boiling the seas) one planet after another.

2)That feat still doesn't match Wanda

3) There's no evidence that Franklin's power would grow, as opposed to his control.

Wanda still wins. Handily.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
I don't doubt that Celestials have psionic powers....but that's still a "physical" power. It's not, for example, an assault on the soul, or by twisting fundamental universal concepts. They haven't shown powers beyond that at all.

Most cosmic beings from Skyfather level up can warp reality, each Celestial is more powerful than young Franklin Richards. Youre claiming Wanda can singlehandedly defeat their entire race which would be hard to believe even if she was sane. But shes not and she cant control her powers. Acknowledge that.

Originally posted by demigawd
To answer your question - I don't see the PF the way GS does. If the PF IS in fact the equivalent of the "Big Bang" or whatever, then could Wanda unmake the Big Bang? Yes. Would that constitute defeating the PF? I guess so. Could she beat Dark Phoenix, or the Phoenix who lost to Magneto, or the Phoenix who fought Galactus or the "jgg" Phoenix? Absolutely.

For evidence on how and why i see the Phoenix the way i do visit these threads on the other forums where the issue is talked about in-depth

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t364141.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368313&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

In the likely event that you cant be bothered then you'll just accept the fact that Wanda wouldnt stand a chance against Phoenix if its intentions are to kill her. By the the terms of this forum that would be the case therefore you wouldnt have any sort of plot device to give SW much needed support. Therefore NO SW could NOT defeat Phoenix. The infos waiting for you.

Phoenix manifests as the Big Bang, the Big Bang isnt the be all and end all of what Phoenix is. If you knew about the origins behind the likes of Eternity, Galactus and so on you'd see that undoing the Big Bang (not that she could) wouldnt effect Phoenix in the slightest. It would however wipe Wanda herself from existence. Plus if Wanda tried to interfere with something like the Big Bang, Phoenix work, then she would get taken down.


Originally posted by demigawd
They step on her and she comes back. She then proceeds to unmake them. She showed in HoM #8 that she's beyond physical death. Unless they do something they've never shown the ability to do - unmake her - there's no way they can win. Meanwhile, they've shown a considerable vulnerability to physical harm. Wanda can simply flood them with hyperspace energies ala Sue Storm and demolish them all at once.

How has Wanda shown she is beyond physical death? She has shown no such thing. You do NOT have conclusive evidence to make such claims. If you do then please by all means present it Oh and the issues House of M 7:

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/1573/scan00145kv.th.jpg

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/3333/scan00151yn.th.jpg

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/935/scan001600176jm.th.jpg

Where in these scans do you see conclusively that Wanda is beyond a physical death? I certainly cant. Hawkeyes arrow disables her temporarily. It never visibly hit any vital organs and as you can see from the back view it wasnt embedded that far. Adding further support to my case Hawkeye didnt seem the least bit surprised when Wanda raised her head and talked to him. Why? Because it wasnt a shot intended to kill it was a disabling shot, a flesh wound. Wanda was alive to negate the effects of the arrow upon herself. Theres no evidence whatsoever that would stop anyone from believing that if a Celestial or all of the Celestials unleashed a planet destroying blast on her that she wouldnt be annihilated. I look forward to your evidence.

Also how have the Celestials shown considerable vulnerability to harm? Thats the exaggeration my friend. The entire Asgardians comibined energies couldnt scratch a single member of the third host and plus one only has to look at Galactus' shock during "The End" to see that destroying a Celestial is no easy task.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
She said "to the ascension itself". Why would she bother mentioning that if she didn't mean to imply that the very Ascension was threatened??? When Hitler said he's going to conquer people from London to Moscow, he didn't mean he was going to stop just before getting to Moscow - that means INCLUDING Moscow. How can you see it any differently??

The fact that we know the Crown is beyond creation and the fact that Roma clarified by saying that creation would collapse suggests that it wouldnt reach the White Hot Room. By all accounts its beyond creation both on panel and by definition and until you have evidence that shows that is not the case, until you have evidence beyond Romas speculation that it could "perhaps reach the ascension" then you cant assume or make out that it definitely could. So we'll leave it at that.



Originally posted by demigawd
The Crown was created by TOAA, as was the Phoenix Force. It was willed into existence by TOAA. So yes, it's very much a part of creation. It sits on top of it, yes, but it's still been created at some point. And that means, like everything else, it's vulnerable to Wanda's Chaos Wave. Roma said it was going to spread to the Ascension itself. They were in the White Hot Room because the wave hadn't reached it yet. That doesn't mean it was safe if Roma's words were any indication.

Nope. The Phoenix Force is Gods power. Its not something he created. The name Phoenix Force was created and the firebird image was created (by the minds of the hosts symbolic of their life and death struggles) but no Gods power was not created Demi. The Crown is an emanation point for Gods essence and is where creation begins from and where it ends. The Crown however is beyond creation by on panel evidence and by definition. Roma never said the wave would spread and engulf the White Hot Room. She speculated that its range could extend as far as the ascension. It was speculation. Nothing definitive. That is fact. So for all we know it would not have. Therefore you cant try and hype up the wave by saying that it could have destroyed the Crown and Phoenix. That is unfounded and hilarious in light of the fact that the Chaos wave got stopped by Meggan.




Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda generates chaos energy - it's well known. It was called Chaos Magic during Busiek's run, and Chaos Energy by Lord Templar prior to that. the nature of that energy creates unlikely scenarios (eg - CHAOS) with Wanda, in the past, having limited control. She learned to control her chaos energy by dictating the scenarios, as Strange indicated when he revealed that it's NOT Magic at all. So it's a huge stretch to suggest that Claremont, being very familiar with Wanda, would choose the term "Chaos Wave" as a coincidence. It's clear, looking at the history of reality doorways, that what's different is Wanda's chaos wave...because she's generating it.


Wanda was said to control chaos magic. Dr Stranges comments then retconned that and we found out that Wanda actually warps reality. He never said no chaos magic doesnt exist but yes Wanda controls chaos energy. Come on Demi you gootta be kidding me? She warps reality. Roma went on to describe what effects the chaos wave would have which goes some way into explaining why it was referred to in that manner:

"""""""Left unchecked all creation would morph into a single, formless,amorphous , conceptual blob. The very concepts of order and chaos will simply cease. It will be the end of rational existence as we know it. """""""

That is why it is referred to as a Chaos wave Demi. Not because it is supposedly generated by Wanda. You have no evidence whatsoever to conclusively say it was generated by Wanda as opposed to her actions triggering it. Thats a fact. You dont have conclusive evidence, you just have your interpretation which isnt supported very well. Therefore lets leave it at that. Wanda warped 616.



Originally posted by demigawd
But we also know that there are multiple doorways between realities that are independent of the M'Kraan Crystal...these doorways are always open. They tend to appear in swamps, and in the arctic (Man-Thing and Hulk). So clearly the "doorways must stay shut" thing is unique to the doorways within the M'Kraan Crystal, otherwise every open doorway would lead to destruction, and we know from Man-Thing, Exiles and Hulk that it's not the case.

Not at all. Theres a difference between dimensional portals and breaches in the walls between realities. One hints at careful intended construction, the other a forceful more careless aperture which affects the structural of the brane. Either way a portal and the breaches are obviously different in nature to both the M'kraan crystal case and the House of M chaos wave. Those two are too similar for you to discount merely because it doesnt suit your case.

On top of that. So what? The breach was temporarily sealed by Blobs backside and the chaos wave got stopped by Meggan. Left unchecked it wouldve done untold damage but it wasnt given the chance. If Meggan can stop the wave then a variety of beings could do the same quite easily. That at least gives a reason for the non interference from LT or Phoenix. Plus can i please remind you that you have NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE that shows the wave was genrated by Wanda so continually posting your unsupported opinion on why it was isnt going to change anything.




Originally posted by demigawd
Cube being powers are limited, so like I said, it makes sense that Celestials are beyond them. So what?

All beings this side of TOAA are limited so whats your point? I like how you didnt acknowledge you were wrong on that point but you instead dismissed my evidence. Cool.



Originally posted by demigawd
IIRC, the Celestials wanted to raise Franklin as one of their own....that doesn't mean that he's their equal in power, it just means that they believe they are best qualified to show Franklin his potential. the Celestials proved unable to undo what Franklin did - he's actually beyond them. Look at how many hassles they had to go through - they had to try to boil the seas of ONE PLANET AT A TIME - and it took sacrificng Asheima to maintain the planet. Why, if Franklin is considered an "equal"? The only logical answer is that Franklin is actually more powerful.

Well for them to be best qualified as you state their words suggest wouldnt that itself tell you that they themselves have vast reality warping powers themselves? Given their ranking and the fact that most beings from skyfather level upwards do possess such powers it seems that would indeed be the case. Given :

Wandas mental state

No conclusive evidence to say she couldnt die physically

The fact that she stated as ive shown that she couldnt control her powers without the aid of Pietro and Xavier

I really dont see how she'd stand up to an entire race of millenia old reality warpers. A RACE Demi. Please acknowledge that.

"Celestials?" It was the dreaming Celestial who was wrecking havoc on Franklins reality anyway and Ashema who as stated in Official HBook of Alternate Universes 2005 was severely depowered by the Dreaming C anyway. So bit of a moot point really.


Originally posted by demigawd
Also, just because Franklin did this at a young age doesn't at all imply that he's capable of going beyond that. Nothing at all indicates that he can become more powerful - nothing. What can improve with age is his CONTROL over his power, but not the level. There's no evidence to show otherwise.

Thats absolute rubbish Demi and you know it. In virtually all cases what has improved with age in mutants is both power and control. When mutants reach their prime , when theyre fully grown they are not only more powerful but with experience they can control their powers better. For example look at how much more powerful Magneto became when he was reverted to his prime, an age where his metabolsim and fitness allowed him to employ his powers at their fullest extent with less need for worry about burning out and tiring from being too young or too old.

Colossus and Namor have increased in strength as theyve become men and Namors gained additional abilities.

Jean Greys telekinesis (Prior to the recent phoenix retcon i might add and even before Phoenixes introduction) grew in strength as she got older.



Originally posted by demigawd
So we have someone who has a feat beyond anything the Celestials were able to duplicate or even undo still falling short of what Wanda has done.

You have no evidence that the Celestials were unable/incapable of undoing what Franklin did. Ashema as documented was depowered by the Dreaming Celestial.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
It's speculation to suggest that Franklin could grow more powerful than that. To think otherwise ignores the history of most mutant powers, GS. Most of the time, you're born with total access to all your powers, you just learn to control it over time. that is to say, Storm at 25 being transported to the body of Storm at 15, would have the same power level. the only difference would be in stamina. But that only applies to powers where energy projection is involved.

I think its down to our differing definitions of what more powerful is.

Being in his prime will allow him to exert his power at higher levels without fear of his body burning and not being able to cope therefore he would be more powerful. He would be able to project and employ a lot more power and thats really not down to more control.

Plus Franklin created that pocket universe subconsciously with no visible strain and he manifested it as a blue ball whoch he kept in his pocket. That imo is more impressive than a full grown adult with the aid of two mutants warping 616. As actually stated on panel without their aid she wouldnt have been able to keep it together. Ive shown you the scan. That woman was a mess. Given Franklins age when he pulled that off, the fact that it was subconscious and the fact that his deployment of power was enough to get the Celestials involved id say that was more impressive all things considered.

The Celstials by all likelihood also have vast reality warping power if they themselves as you stated consider themselves best qualified to tutor Franklin in the use of his abilities, if they think they can help him reach his full potential. The cube beings can warp reality on a planetary scale, th eCelestials are exponentially more powerful than them. I really cant see Wanda taking down a race of them.




Originally posted by demigawd
Untrue. Wanda was worried that she couldn't be able to do it, but QS offered his support in the form of encouragement - he told her to tap into Xavier's powers and read everybody's mind and give them what they want. Xavier wasn't consciously a part of it and QS didn't contribute anything beyond, "You can do it! I believe in you!". Re-read the issue.

So my points stand:

1)Franklin has accomplished a feat that the Celestials couldn't duplicate without working together and rendering one of their own comatose, and couldn't undo it without destroying (using lame tactics like boiling the seas) one planet after another.

2)That feat still doesn't match Wanda

3) There's no evidence that Franklin's power would grow, as opposed to his control.

Wanda still wins. Handily.

Dealt with previously.

Wanda loses without a doubt. wink

Xplosive
Look, in short, as I see it, already young Fanklin showed power at least equal to Celestial. Celestials know, he hasnt close live up to the potential he has (and he already created pocket universe, so his potentail is beyond of what he showed). I see Wanda being above one Celestial, but against all, come one, she would be less than antz, its ridicoluos. Question, could she even beat Exitar, maybe, probably.
But by no means can Wanda even challenge Phoenix, come on! Jean was created, yes, but not Phoenix Force, PF wasnt created.
Wanda could never be even a little threat to Phoenix. Wanda is certainly one of the most powerful being ever shown in MU, but ceratinly not even a threat to the Phoenix.

leonheartmm
ughhhh, isee everyone's caught gs's essay writing syndrome where they cant seem to be able to get a point through, {and yes gs, every thread u post in does seem to be to save pheonix's ass or bash a pheonix hater}

just like "some"{cough GS} people on these forums, people in these threads have started to take any and every wanda feat at face value and interpret it in the highest possible way. wanda is nowhere near that powerful in reality. affecting the multiverse stuff she did is what PIS is all about, lets think about it for a second shall we. wanda is a mutant, a very powerful one, but not quiyte on par with the likes of hyperstorm, nate, cable and franklin. suddenly writers think up of ways in which she can affect the multiverse{or OMNIVERSE!} u know damn well that sumthing is incosistant/wrong here. odin, who is only a skyfather SHOOK the whole multiverse with a single punch once. now think about it, how many sky fathers are there, and how many beings ABOVE skyfathers there are in EVERY universe, are all of them potential universal affectors/destroyers?! hell if that was te case then LT would have quite a job on his hands wont he? u have to look at the AVERAGE power level that the writer gae to a character, and many factors that come into play like art, style, cannon/non cannon, low level feats of a character that contradict such power and most of all, PIS or even more what the writer/artist was trying to SHOW in those feats of the character and whether it was just a fanatic writer or whether the character was not supposed to be taken as above abstracts{the same idea in the second last pheonix retcon, dr strange, some silver surfer and x men/fantastic four comics{i.e. invisible woman single handedly killing a celestial} what ive seen is that most people just bring up the low end feats of the opposotion and high end feats of their characters {manipulated mostly in favour of their character} and wont listen to anythin else. this is not really the way to go.

now for this matcheup there are two very probable oputcomes depoending on the writer. 1st : wanda goes up against one celestial and gets her ass SO sorely beaten down that it leaves a permanent mark and puts her in her place
2: the celestials think theyr supreme and try to attack her to show their superiority by killing her with a single raise of a finger, but suddenly wanda says some impressive one liners and kills a few and proves to them{rather menacingly} that the INHABITANTS of a UNIVERSE are nuthin compared to one who can destroy the entire MULTIVERSE{in bolds just like they do it in marvel and dc}

both are very logical outcomes , if its an x men or house of m xomic the 2nd scenario is probably true, if its a cosmic one like silver surfer/dr stange or sumthin than the first one is probably whats gonna happen, {see too much inconsisntency} and thas that.

{oh btw, ALL of franklins feats are FAR above what any celestial/ abstract has been shown to be able to do}

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
ughhhh, isee everyone's caught gs's essay writing syndrome where they cant seem to be able to get a point through, {and yes gs, every thread u post in does seem to be to save pheonix's ass or bash a pheonix hater}

just like "some"{cough GS} people on these forums, people in these threads have started to take any and every wanda feat at face value and interpret it in the highest possible way. wanda is nowhere near that powerful in reality. affecting the multiverse stuff she did is what PIS is all about, lets think about it for a second shall we. wanda is a mutant, a very powerful one, but not quiyte on par with the likes of hyperstorm, nate, cable and franklin. suddenly writers think up of ways in which she can affect the multiverse{or OMNIVERSE!} u know damn well that sumthing is incosistant/wrong here. odin, who is only a skyfather SHOOK the whole multiverse with a single punch once. now think about it, how many sky fathers are there, and how many beings ABOVE skyfathers there are in EVERY universe, are all of them potential universal affectors/destroyers?! hell if that was te case then LT would have quite a job on his hands wont he? u have to look at the AVERAGE power level that the writer gae to a character, and many factors that come into play like art, style, cannon/non cannon, low level feats of a character that contradict such power and most of all, PIS or even more what the writer/artist was trying to SHOW in those feats of the character and whether it was just a fanatic writer or whether the character was not supposed to be taken as above abstracts{the same idea in the second last pheonix retcon, dr strange, some silver surfer and x men/fantastic four comics{i.e. invisible woman single handedly killing a celestial} what ive seen is that most people just bring up the low end feats of the opposotion and high end feats of their characters {manipulated mostly in favour of their character} and wont listen to anythin else. this is not really the way to go.

now for this matcheup there are two very probable oputcomes depoending on the writer. 1st : wanda goes up against one celestial and gets her ass SO sorely beaten down that it leaves a permanent mark and puts her in her place
2: the celestials think theyr supreme and try to attack her to show their superiority by killing her with a single raise of a finger, but suddenly wanda says some impressive one liners and kills a few and proves to them{rather menacingly} that the INHABITANTS of a UNIVERSE are nuthin compared to one who can destroy the entire MULTIVERSE{in bolds just like they do it in marvel and dc}

both are very logical outcomes , if its an x men or house of m xomic the 2nd scenario is probably true, if its a cosmic one like silver surfer/dr stange or sumthin than the first one is probably whats gonna happen, {see too much inconsisntency} and thas that.

{oh btw, ALL of franklins feats are FAR above what any celestial/ abstract has been shown to be able to do}

eek! laughing out loud Have you read your post? laughing out loud

Xplosive
Originally posted by leonheartmm
hyperstorm, nate, cable and franklin.

Yeah roll eyes (sarcastic) . Maybe only Franklin, others cant even compete.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{oh btw, ALL of Franklins feats are above what any Celestial

True

Crimson Phoenix
Oh dear, looks like i made a big boo boo. I was inteding to write celestial, as in not celestials, as in not their entire race. Sorry for my stupid typing error. (against a whole race of celestials!!! wanda would be crushed)

In my opinion, Wanda would take it. She has shown that she is capable of universal reality manipulation, (omniversal reality manipulation still up for debate). If it was said franlin was on par with a celestial- wanda has shown that at the moment she has outdone franlkin in terms of power, so i'm gonna give this to wanda.

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Most cosmic beings from Skyfather level up can warp reality, each Celestial is more powerful than young Franklin Richards. Youre claiming Wanda can singlehandedly defeat their entire race which would be hard to believe even if she was sane. But shes not and she cant control her powers. Acknowledge that.


She's NOT sane, but she doesn't have to be in order to beat Celestials. Sanity is a necessary component to exercise good judgment in things like...choosing who should remain a mutant and who shouldn't. It's not necessary to kick somebody's ass.

Equating skyfather reality warping to Wanda reality warping is about as effective as equating Galactus' eyeblasts with Cyclops. That is to say, NOT effective. Take a better angle, GS.



I read it - it's your usual bunch of crap combined with scans that don't show anything. Face facts, GS, EVERY manifestation of Phoenix has shown vulnerability. Dark Phoenix was beaten by a laser, Phoenix I was beaten by Magneto, and later by a Magneto clone (who may very well be a creation of....ta daaa...WANDA), and later still had her "crown" disconnected and later still was in a terribly weakened state. Phoenix II was beaten by the Beyonder and unable to defeat Galactus. As a "force of creation" her role in combat is unseen and likely non-existent. As an avatar, her record is less-than-impressive. Wanda would simply "jgg" Jean and that would be the end of that. Wanda wins handily, regardless of your unsupported "tipareth" mumbo jumbo. laughing



I know about the origins of Eternity, Galactus, etc. And I know it has nothing to do with Phoenix laughing. You're trying to cast the Phoenix Force as an aspect of God, making her essentially untouchable. That whole bizarre theory aside, Jean is NOT the Phoenix Force, Jean is an avatar - and she's shown limited power and even more limited knowledge of how to use it. Look at those same scans you like to shove in people's faces - she wasn't even the wisest avatar there. It took someone else to explain things to her. You'd think if she were an aspect of God, she'd be a bit wiser. You'd think if she were an aspect of God, she wouldn't have to listen to a "they" all the time.

Fact - Jean is NOT the Phoenix Force. "They" are.

Fact - Jean gets her power and her orders from "They".

Fact - by extension, those powers are limited to something less than "they"

Fact - those powers have not been enough to put her solidly over Galactus, or even the Beyonder

Fact - Jean is NOT all powerful, even if the Phoenix Force is.

Fact - Wanda kicks the crap out of Jean any day of the week and Jean will use the excuse that "they" won't let her win. laughing




Are you kidding me, GS? Clint's an expert marksman - that was a deathblow. You can tell because Wanda is spewing blood....that means it punctured her lungs. He was TRYING to kill her. In fact, read the quote, "I was hoping if I couldn't kill you for all the $&%* you've done I thought at least I'd maybe snap you out of your crazy". And this was AFTER declaring in the previous issue that he was going to kill her. He was TRYING to kill her and figured that if it didn't work (her being a god and all) that it would at least snap her out of it. Neither worked...when he shot her, she was OUT. DEAD. Then she just got up like everything was cool. Look at her speech pattern. It's not the usual "Clint....Barton....why?" speech pattern that dying people have. She was absolutely fine...just undid everything. She's clearly beyond physical death.

On the other hand "jgg".



And yet Sue Storm completely destroyed one with her own meager energies, Thor blasted a hole in one, and Jean destroyed the hand of one. Physical damage.

Like I said before - Wanda just needs to blast them with hyperspatial energies and they're all done. Simple task. But I acknowledge that it'll be harder to beat them than it would be for her to beat, say, Wolverine. Or Phoenix. laughing

Fishy 500
Originally posted by demigawd
You guys obviously didn't read the Uncanny issues of HoM. She threatened all existence - the entire omniverse.

Tell me....what reality warping feats do Celestials have? Name some.

SW blinks the entire Celestial race out of existence.

As in the title with Juggernaught and co ?

Aren't the celestials responsible for the Mutant mutations, how the hell did they make one of their own creations more powerful than them selves ?

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The fact that we know the Crown is beyond creation and the fact that Roma clarified by saying that creation would collapse suggests that it wouldnt reach the White Hot Room. By all accounts its beyond creation both on panel and by definition and until you have evidence that shows that is not the case, until you have evidence beyond Romas speculation that it could "perhaps reach the ascension" then you cant assume or make out that it definitely could. So we'll leave it at that.


that doesn't make any sense. Roma said it could reach the Ascension itself. There's no two ways to interpret that - that means the White Hot Room itself is threatened. The White Hot room was stated to be beyond the universe....not beyond creation. Nothing except TOAA is beyond creation. You're stretching A LOT to say otherwise just to save your precious White Hot Home.



Meggan never stopped the Chaos Wave - she sealed the breach. Big difference. Also, the Phoenix Force MAY be God's power, but the White Hot Rooom is part of creation. You have no evidence whatsoever to support a position to the contrary. Therefore, Roma's statement that the Chaos Wave could reach the Ascension is accurate. You can't spin it any other way, no matter how much you'd like to. "Reaching to Ascension" is reaching the very throne of god....it means the Chaos Wave theatens EVERYTHING.



I kid you not...read up on Avengers. Lord Templar and Pagan are both chaos beings and Wanda's powers were compatible with theirs, which is why she also got strange effects whenever battling them. They are both said to generate chaos energy. This was before it was considered "magical". In fact, it was referred to as Chaos Energy in Galactus: The Devourer and in Avengers #59.

Not all reality warpers are the same, just like not all energy projectors are the same. Wanda's powers work by generating chaos energy (which, as Dr. Strange said, is not magical). This chaos energy, when unchecked, causes random effects (as we've seen in within Roma's citadel where there are multiple versions of characters changing throughout the multiverse). Wanda learned how to harness that power so that SHE dictated the changes made by the chaos energy. In the process, she unmakes reality reality via the chaos wave, then re-makes it in her own image.

So yes, Wanda very much created the Chaos Wave, being that Chaos Energy is the source of her power.



That's what chaos energy does. Wanda generates chaos energy. That's ALWAYS been her thing. Chaos energy is real - both Templar and Pagan are chaos beings.



A chaos wave is comprised of chaos energy, GS. Wanda generates chaos energy! You're reaching....AGAIN.




Who said anything about dimensional portals? You can traverse dimensions without leaving the universe. Those doorways in Man-Thing and Exiles are doorways to REALITIES, not dimensions. And they're left open and they're just fine. The "don't leave the doors open" concept is unique to the M'Kraan Crystal, nothing else, otherwise reality would always be threatened by open doorways...and that's simply not the case. Post up that AOA Gambit scan again - read what it says - it's specifically the M'Kraan Crystal's doorways that cause the blinking out of reality.



Meggan didn't stop the wave - she sealed the breach. Wanda's chaos energy was fine and dandy. The abstracts didn't get involved because they don't care about a single universe - Wanda only INTENDED for her effects to reach throughout the universe. That doesn't mean that lacks the ability to go beyond that, as tearing a hole in the multiverse proves.




Will it make you feel better if I say that Celestials are a lot more powerful than Cube beings? There there. You're right! Does that further any of your points whatsoever? Nope. Wanda is STILL beyond them, and any suggestion to the contrary is pure speculation on your part.




Like I said before, it's totally invalid to compare skyfather reality warping powers (which are extremely limited) to Wanda's, so don't even bother trying to draw a parallel. And if Celestials don't show reality warping powers...they don't have it. to suggest otherwise is speculation. They said that they want to raise Franklin as one of their own....they never actually said anything about his power being the same as theirs.

And, like I said - there's NOTHING to suggest that Franklin is supposed to be even more powerful than his pocket universe feat. Nada.

demigawd
Not at all - Exitar himself was there boiling the seas. Ashema was racing against the clock to save the planet before Exitar destroyed it. So yes, multiple Celestials were involved, and together couldn't match Franklin's single feat.




Using his power taxes Magneto's body - of course when he's an old man he can't process those energies the same way, just like Quicksilver will become slower when he's 80 than he is now. Reality warping is an entirely mental exercise - it's subject entirely to control and has nothing to do with physical maturity. C'mon GS, you know better. Xavier isn't more powerful now than when he first got his powers - his control is better.



Their powers are physical. Namor didn't gain additional abilities.



No it hasn't - her ability to use it grew. The power itself was the same.



You have no evidence that they were capable of doing what Franklin did. If they were capable, they would have had to go through that big long, multi-issue mess. They would have blinked away the pocket universe and been done with it. The fact is, they COULDN'T blink it away...they didn't have the power. And until you show they do...they don't

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I think its down to our differing definitions of what more powerful is.

Being in his prime will allow him to exert his power at higher levels without fear of his body burning and not being able to cope therefore he would be more powerful. He would be able to project and employ a lot more power and thats really not down to more control.

Plus Franklin created that pocket universe subconsciously with no visible strain and he manifested it as a blue ball whoch he kept in his pocket. That imo is more impressive than a full grown adult with the aid of two mutants warping 616. As actually stated on panel without their aid she wouldnt have been able to keep it together. Ive shown you the scan. That woman was a mess. Given Franklins age when he pulled that off, the fact that it was subconscious and the fact that his deployment of power was enough to get the Celestials involved id say that was more impressive all things considered.

The Celstials by all likelihood also have vast reality warping power if they themselves as you stated consider themselves best qualified to tutor Franklin in the use of his abilities, if they think they can help him reach his full potential. The cube beings can warp reality on a planetary scale, th eCelestials are exponentially more powerful than them. I really cant see Wanda taking down a race of them.


reality warping doesn't really require much of the physical body. It's NOT the same thing as magnetism, or super strength, or optic blasts. It's a finesse ability, not a brute force ability. You never see reality warpers straining to do something....either they can warp something or they can't. So Franklin's age has nothing to do with his level of power, just how much he can consciously do. There's nothing to suggest that Franklin is capable of doing anything greater than creating a pocket universe. Nobody said he could, nothing has shown he could. Nobody has said his potential is higher than that, nobody said he'll become even more powerful as he gets older. You have nothing to go on.

And just because the Celestials feel they're best equipped to train Franklin doesn't mean they have the same powers. I'm bigger and stronger than my sifu in Kung Fu class, but he's wiser and understands the concepts and principles of fighting better - so he's well equipped to train me, even though I'm actually more powerful than he is. It's the same thing here. Franklin may well be greater than all the Celestials, but their training is top notch and necessary to help Franklin learn to use his powers in a conscious way.



Actually, I'm afraid none of the points were dealt with. sad

So my points stand:

1)Franklin has accomplished a feat that the Celestials couldn't duplicate without working together and rendering one of their own comatose, and couldn't undo it without destroying (using lame tactics like boiling the seas) one planet after another.

2)That feat still doesn't match Wanda

3) There's no evidence that Franklin's power would grow, as opposed to his control.

Wanda still wins. Handily. But A for effort! Happy Dance

demigawd
Originally posted by leonheartmm
ughhhh, isee everyone's caught gs's essay writing syndrome where they cant seem to be able to get a point through, {and yes gs, every thread u post in does seem to be to save pheonix's ass or bash a pheonix hater}

just like "some"{cough GS} people on these forums, people in these threads have started to take any and every wanda feat at face value and interpret it in the highest possible way. wanda is nowhere near that powerful in reality. affecting the multiverse stuff she did is what PIS is all about, lets think about it for a second shall we. wanda is a mutant, a very powerful one, but not quiyte on par with the likes of hyperstorm, nate, cable and franklin. suddenly writers think up of ways in which she can affect the multiverse{or OMNIVERSE!} u know damn well that sumthing is incosistant/wrong here. odin, who is only a skyfather SHOOK the whole multiverse with a single punch once. now think about it, how many sky fathers are there, and how many beings ABOVE skyfathers there are in EVERY universe, are all of them potential universal affectors/destroyers?! hell if that was te case then LT would have quite a job on his hands wont he? u have to look at the AVERAGE power level that the writer gae to a character, and many factors that come into play like art, style, cannon/non cannon, low level feats of a character that contradict such power and most of all, PIS or even more what the writer/artist was trying to SHOW in those feats of the character and whether it was just a fanatic writer or whether the character was not supposed to be taken as above abstracts{the same idea in the second last pheonix retcon, dr strange, some silver surfer and x men/fantastic four comics{i.e. invisible woman single handedly killing a celestial} what ive seen is that most people just bring up the low end feats of the opposotion and high end feats of their characters {manipulated mostly in favour of their character} and wont listen to anythin else. this is not really the way to go.

now for this matcheup there are two very probable oputcomes depoending on the writer. 1st : wanda goes up against one celestial and gets her ass SO sorely beaten down that it leaves a permanent mark and puts her in her place
2: the celestials think theyr supreme and try to attack her to show their superiority by killing her with a single raise of a finger, but suddenly wanda says some impressive one liners and kills a few and proves to them{rather menacingly} that the INHABITANTS of a UNIVERSE are nuthin compared to one who can destroy the entire MULTIVERSE{in bolds just like they do it in marvel and dc}

both are very logical outcomes , if its an x men or house of m xomic the 2nd scenario is probably true, if its a cosmic one like silver surfer/dr stange or sumthin than the first one is probably whats gonna happen, {see too much inconsisntency} and thas that.

{oh btw, ALL of franklins feats are FAR above what any celestial/ abstract has been shown to be able to do}

The idea of taking averages is a wise one, but you also have to take into account powerups. You CAN'T use Wanda's averages when she's been specifically powered up - you have to reset the bar and use the new measurements for averages. That means any Wanda feats from Disassembled on become the new averages for current Wanda.

It has nothing to do with PIS.

demigawd
Originally posted by Xplosive
Look, in short, as I see it, already young Fanklin showed power at least equal to Celestial. Celestials know, he hasnt close live up to the potential he has (and he already created pocket universe, so his potentail is beyond of what he showed). I see Wanda being above one Celestial, but against all, come one, she would be less than antz, its ridicoluos. Question, could she even beat Exitar, maybe, probably.
But by no means can Wanda even challenge Phoenix, come on! Jean was created, yes, but not Phoenix Force, PF wasnt created.
Wanda could never be even a little threat to Phoenix. Wanda is certainly one of the most powerful being ever shown in MU, but ceratinly not even a threat to the Phoenix.

Ah, so Jean was created by not PF, eh? GS might take issue with that.

Wanda beats Jean Grey the psionic
Wanda beats Jean Grey as a Phoenix Avatar ("jgg!"wink
Wanda beats Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix ("laser!"wink
Wanda goes back in time and kills Xavier a la AOA (Jean Grey never becomes Phoenix)
Wanda stops the Big Bang from happening - no manifestation of the PF
Wanda destroys the White Hot Room - no more Phoenix Force

Tell me, is there any of the million or so versions of GS's Phoenix bullshit that I've left out? Wanda is eager to destroy! laughing

Xplosive
Look, Phoenix Force is asepct of God, so therefore all powerful it is and beyond creation. Jean is practicaly the one with the Phoenix Force, therefor Wanda is joke to Phoenix and Wanda doenst have the slightest chance of even threatening Phoenix.

Originally posted by demigawd
I read it - it's your usual bunch of crap combined with scans that don't show anything. Face facts, GS, EVERY manifestation of Phoenix has shown vulnerability. Dark Phoenix was beaten by a laser, Phoenix I was beaten by Magneto, and later by a Magneto clone (who may very well be a creation of....ta daaa...WANDA), and later still had her "crown" disconnected and later still was in a terribly weakened state.

Uou, Magneto is more powerful than Phoenix, yes. Come on, you always keep mentioning that, Magneto defeating Phoenix doesnt mean shit and it means absolutely nohting.

demigawd
Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Oh dear, looks like i made a big boo boo. I was inteding to write celestial, as in not celestials, as in not their entire race. Sorry for my stupid typing error. (against a whole race of celestials!!! wanda would be crushed)

In my opinion, Wanda would take it. She has shown that she is capable of universal reality manipulation, (omniversal reality manipulation still up for debate). If it was said franlin was on par with a celestial- wanda has shown that at the moment she has outdone franlkin in terms of power, so i'm gonna give this to wanda.

Since the author has updated this...are we all agreed that Wanda beats one Celestial? Sounds like we are.

Xplosive
Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, so Jean was created by not PF, eh? GS might take issue with that.

Wanda beats Jean Grey the psionic
Wanda beats Jean Grey as a Phoenix Avatar ("jgg!"wink
Wanda beats Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix ("laser!"wink
Wanda goes back in time and kills Xavier a la AOA (Jean Grey never becomes Phoenix)
Wanda stops the Big Bang from happening - no manifestation of the PF
Wanda destroys the White Hot Room - no more Phoenix Force

Tell me, is there any of the million or so versions of GS's Phoenix bullshit that I've left out? Wanda is eager to destroy! laughing

Hahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhaha laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing .

demigawd
Originally posted by Xplosive
Look, Phoenix Force is asepct of God, so therefore all powerful it is and beyond creation. Jean is practicaly the one with the Phoenix Force, therefor Wanda is joke to Phoenix and Wanda doenst have the slightest chance of even threatening Phoenix.


Jean Grey Phoenix does NOT equal Phoenix Force. Otherwise, if she were all powerful, would "jgg" have happened? Would she have needed to "let herself die" *cough*bullshit*cough* in order to bring herself back in the future? She's NOT all powerful, and if you acknowledge that the PF is all power, then you have to acknowledge that Jean isn't the Phoenix Force.



Except it happened. Twice. So what do you make of that?

Xplosive
Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, so Jean was created by not PF, eh? GS might take issue with that.


Sad, sad.

Originally posted by demigawd
Since the author has updated this...are we all agreed that Wanda beats one Celestial? Sounds like we are.

Go and count post, you will see that not everyone agree.

Xplosive
Originally posted by demigawd
Jean Grey Phoenix does NOT equal Phoenix Force. Otherwise, if she were all powerful, would "jgg" have happened? Would she have needed to "let herself die" *cough*bullshit*cough* in order to bring herself back in the future? She's NOT all powerful, and if you acknowledge that the PF is all power, then you have to acknowledge that Jean isn't the Phoenix Force.

She wields the power of Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by demigawd
Except it happened. Twice. So what do you make of that?

No one is taking that seriously, cause it means nothing.

demigawd
Originally posted by Xplosive
She wields the power of Phoenix Force.


But is capable of being beaten, as has been shown. She wields the power of "creation" but without the wisdom and capacity to use it, she falls short of its full power. She couldn't even fix the M'Kraan Crystal on her own. As long as Jean is a human wielding the Phoenix Force, she's not the Supergod GS makes her out to be.



So you're saying that it's happened, but you just choose to ignore it? Both times? What if it happens again? You'll ignore it again? What if it happens five more times?

Xplosive
Originally posted by demigawd
So you're saying that it's happened, but you just choose to ignore it? Both times? What if it happens again? You'll ignore it again? What if it happens five more times?

I would alwys ignore it, cause its just means nothing. Magneto is not 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000...........1 of Phoenix powers, so who how to take it seriosuly.

demigawd
Originally posted by Xplosive
I would alwys ignore it, cause its just means nothing. Magneto is not 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000...........1 of Phoenix powers, so who how to take it seriosuly.

Because Phoenix is overrated and not all-powerful. And because power is nothing when there's not enough wisdom or control to use it. Phoenix's combat feats are less impressive than you believe. Look at the history of them. Fought Galactus to a draw, lost to Beyonder, "jgg", killed by laser, beaten by Proteus, etc. Yawn.

Xplosive
Originally posted by demigawd
Because Phoenix is overrated and not all-powerful. And because power is nothing when there's not enough wisdom or control to use it. Phoenix's combat feats are less impressive than you believe. Look at the history of them. Fought Galactus to a draw, lost to Beyonder, "jgg", killed by laser, beaten by Proteus, etc. Yawn.

Defeating Galactus, holding the universe in her hand, saving multiverse before McKryan Crystal, seeing every major cosmic kneeling before Phoenix, even Living Tribunal.
Tell me Demigawd, would Wanda defeat LT?

demigawd
Originally posted by Xplosive
Defeating Galactus, holding the universe in her hand, saving multiverse before McKryan Crystal, seeing every major cosmic kneeling before Phoenix, even Living Tribunal.
Tell me Demigawd, would Wanda defeat LT?

She didn't defeat Galactus...he ran out of energy and said it was because she draws on potential energy - life, which is a bigger store than his. That's all. If she were all powerful, she'd blink Galactus away, or turn him in Galan for fun, then turn him back as a stern lesson. It wasn't decisive like that. Holding the universe in her hand isn't much of a combat feat, is it? It's just fun to look at. And seeing every cosmic kneeling before her was a dramatization of what the Stranger was AFRAID could happen....it didn't happen.

What else you got?

Would she beat LT? Probably not. And neither could Phoenix.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by demigawd
Because Phoenix is overrated and not all-powerful. And because power is nothing when there's not enough wisdom or control to use it. Phoenix's combat feats are less impressive than you believe. Look at the history of them. Fought Galactus to a draw, lost to Beyonder, "jgg", killed by laser, beaten by Proteus, etc. Yawn.

Agreed smile

Excellent argument

Keep the faith smile

Stay Whirly rock

ps: lest we forget jgg

Xplosive
No had such high feat as every cosmic powerhouse kneeling before Phoenix (except Thanos with HOTU). It was clearly shown tha Pheonix is beyond anyone and Strange knows that and everyone else.

demigawd
That NEVER happened. NOBODY kneeled before her. That was a visualization describing what Stranger was afraid could happen. That doesn't count as a feat in the slightest! C'mon now!

Xplosive
Originally posted by demigawd
That NEVER happened. NOBODY kneeled before her. That was a visualization describing what Stranger was afraid could happen. That doesn't count as a feat in the slightest! C'mon now!

The point was that Marvel still clearly showed that Phoenix is the most powerful. Strange knew that no one could stop her, no one, everyone would be antz (that is why he was affraid, everyone could be stopped, even LT, but not Phoenix and he was affraid of that), even LT. Marvel clearly showed Phoenix is the most powerful.

Fishy 500
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Agreed smile

Excellent argument

Keep the faith smile

Stay Whirly rock

ps: lest we forget jgg

What the hell is going on !!!!!!!!! I like the old days when it was LT and then Eternity !!!!!!!!!!

Now its The Bunny, The Witch and the White Rooms Wardrobe !

WTF !!!!!!!!

Fishy 500
Originally posted by demigawd
The idea of taking averages is a wise one, but you also have to take into account powerups. You CAN'T use Wanda's averages when she's been specifically powered up - you have to reset the bar and use the new measurements for averages. That means any Wanda feats from Disassembled on become the new averages for current Wanda.

It has nothing to do with PIS.

Has she really had a power up ? I am yet to read Avengers disassembled, but i was under the impression thats she has realised the full potential of her powers ?

demigawd
Originally posted by Xplosive
The point was that Marvel still clearly showed that Phoenix is the most powerful. Strange knew that no one could stop her, no one, everyone would be antz (that is why he was affraid, everyone could be stopped, even LT, but not Phoenix and he was affraid of that), even LT. Marvel clearly showed Phoenix is the most powerful.

Marvel didn't show any such thing. It was the Stranger's theory that it could happen. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Fishy 500
Has she really had a power up ? I am yet to read Avengers disassembled, but i was under the impression thats she has realised the full potential of her powers ?

It was a powerup in the sense that she did realize her full potential, yes. It had been in the making for a long time.

Xplosive
Originally posted by demigawd
Marvel didn't show any such thing. It was the Stranger's theory that it could happen. Nothing more.


Yes and showed he is affraid of Pheonix than of anyone else.

Fishy 500
Originally posted by demigawd
Marvel didn't show any such thing. It was the Stranger's theory that it could happen. Nothing more.



It was a powerup in the sense that she did realize her full potential, yes. It had been in the making for a long time.

Its a bit much to think she's gone from being a lower level Avenger to some one who could threaten God !IMO

grey fox
I know scarlet witch is uber powered know , but were talking about a group of people that have killed gods regularly.

demigawd
Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes and showed he is affraid of Pheonix than of anyone else.

Wrong. He's afraid of the potential of humankind - he's afraid of a RACE of Phoenices.

Originally posted by Fishy 500
Its a bit much to think she's gone from being a lower level Avenger to some one who could threaten God !IMO

it's the nature of the business. But it wasn't sudden. She was always hinted at having the potential back when she created her children. During Busiek's run, she became second only to Thor in power....and growing. Her alternation of 616 and her Chaos Wave that destroyed several UNIVERSES show the level of power she has reached. She threatens all of creation....including the Ascension (seat of God).

Don't shoot the messenger...I'm just telling it like it is. smile

Originally posted by grey fox
I know scarlet witch is uber powered know , but were talking about a group of people that have killed gods regularly.

Really? Regularly now? Name some.

Xplosive
Look Demigawd, Phoenix is ultimate mutation and not Scarlet Witch, so therefor Wanda would die horribly and easily and is not even a challenge to the one who wields the Phoenix Force.

DarkCrawler
Originally posted by Xplosive
Look Demigawd, Phoenix is ultiamte mutaiotn and not Scarlet Witch, so therefor Wanda would die horribly and easily.

I can't do anything else then just stand and admire your amazing debating skills...

illadelph12
This fight is a catch 22.

I'm actually leaning towards Scarlet Witch.

She's not just a reality warper, she can consciously control causality and it's off shoot concepts; probability and possibility. She could cause all of the Cellestials' powers to overload causing spontaneous combustion of their skulls by them simply being in her presence, or nullify their abilities altogether and have them all suffer from a mass bout of amnesia and forget what they were doing and what their powers were.

As powerful as Cellestials are, they're not above the concept of causality.

Numbers are on the Cellestial's side, but SW has an enormous ace up her sleave. She's a walking retcon.

demigawd
Originally posted by Xplosive
Look Demigawd, Phoenix is ultimate mutation and not Scarlet Witch, so therefor Wanda would die horribly and easily and is not even a challenge to the one who wields the Phoenix Force.

Oh, well, in that case....what was *I* thinking?

demigawd
Originally posted by illadelph12
This fight is a catch 22.

I'm actually leaning towards Scarlet Witch.

She's not just a reality warper, she can consciously control causality and it's off shoot concepts; probability and possibility. She could cause all of the Cellestials' powers to overload causing spontaneous combustion of their skulls by them simply being in her presence, or nullify their abilities altogether and have them all suffer from a mass bout of amnesia and forget what they were doing and what their powers were.

As powerful as Cellestials are, they're not above the concept of causality.

Numbers are on the Cellestial's side, but SW has an enormous ace up her sleave. She's a walking retcon.

Doesn't even have to be that fancy.

Hyperspace energy = Dead Celestials. The whole lot of them.

illadelph12
laughing

demi, what's with the sig homie?

demigawd
haha...GS said he might take my woman. When I didn't understand how based on that pic Whirly parades around, he said it's an old pic and he's far beyond that. Then he dropped that priceless line, hahaha.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Fishy 500
What the hell is going on !!!!!!!!! I like the old days when it was LT and then Eternity !!!!!!!!!!

Now its The Bunny, The Witch and the White Rooms Wardrobe !

WTF !!!!!!!!

laughing


Yahman, you, Demi, Rage, leonheartmm have done what even the Goblin confused I mean troll confused I mean Whirlyforce could not.


The bunny will manifest soon shifty trust me

till then........


Keep the faith smile


Stay Whirly rock

Fishy 500
Originally posted by demigawd
haha...GS said he might take my woman. When I didn't understand how based on that pic Whirly parades around, he said it's an old pic and he's far beyond that. Then he dropped that priceless line, hahaha.

eek!

laughing out loud laughing out loud

That is the single most funny thing EVER !!!!!!!!! laughing out loud

leonidas
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
laughing


Yahman, you, Demi, Rage, leonheartmm have done what even the Goblin confused I mean troll confused I mean Whirlyforce could not.


The bunny will manifest soon shifty trust me

till then........


Keep the faith smile


Stay Whirly rock

don't sell yourself short whirly -- it was you who kept my eyes open to gs's theories! having not personally kept current the last couple years, it was hard to know WHAT was fact and what was speculation as regards the pf. frankly, i STILL don't know exactly what is true and what isn't, but be proud my friend that you forced me to keep an open mind!!

stay whirly! wink

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by leonidas
don't sell yourself short whirly -- it was you who kept my eyes open to gs's theories! having not personally kept current the last couple years, it was hard to know WHAT was fact and what was speculation as regards the pf. frankly, i STILL don't know exactly what is true and what isn't, but be proud my friend that you forced me to keep an open mind!!

stay whirly! wink

thanks Leo, you also argued the point against it a number of times extremely well.

smile

demigawd
Don't worry dear warriors...Phoenix gets buried here TODAY. I'll handle it MYSELF! HAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait...this is about Scarlet Witch vs. a Celestial, right? Where did Phoenix come from?

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by demigawd
Don't worry dear warriors...Phoenix gets buried here TODAY. I'll handle it MYSELF! HAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait...this is about Scarlet Witch vs. a Celestial, right? Where did Phoenix come from?

Who knows please bury her anyway fearless one, thats the thing about Phoenix - she feckin pops up everywhere.

Xplosive
Phoenix Vs. Celestial Race & Wanda & Franklin, Phoenix still comes easily on top.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Fishy 500
eek!

laughing out loud laughing out loud

That is the single most funny thing EVER !!!!!!!!! laughing out loud

agreed smile

illadelph12
Originally posted by demigawd
haha...GS said he might take my woman. When I didn't understand how based on that pic Whirly parades around, he said it's an old pic and he's far beyond that. Then he dropped that priceless line, hahaha.

laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

leonidas
now i wonder who would have pitted demi v gs by mentioning the pf . . .? shifty

leonidas
Originally posted by demigawd
I don't doubt that Celestials have psionic powers....but that's still a "physical" power. It's not, for example, an assault on the soul, or by twisting fundamental universal concepts. They haven't shown powers beyond that at all.

To answer your question - I don't see the PF the way GS does. If the PF IS in fact the equivalent of the "Big Bang" or whatever, then could Wanda unmake the Big Bang? Yes. Would that constitute defeating the PF? I guess so. Could she beat Dark Phoenix, or the Phoenix who lost to Magneto, or the Phoenix who fought Galactus or the "jgg" Phoenix? Absolutely.



They step on her and she comes back. She then proceeds to unmake them. She showed in HoM #8 that she's beyond physical death. Unless they do something they've never shown the ability to do - unmake her - there's no way they can win. Meanwhile, they've shown a considerable vulnerability to physical harm. Wanda can simply flood them with hyperspace energies ala Sue Storm and demolish them all at once.

anyway, back to the actual debate . . .

perhaps it's not so cut and dried as you assume, demi. these scans are from ff 400 -- the issue where we learn about the watcher/celestial conflict that has been going on forever. the exitar has felled the ONE -- greatest/wisest/repository-of-all-knowledge watcher.

leonidas
. . .

leonidas
the celestials were going to eradicate them from reality. not kill them all. the previous scan says they have struggled against each other 'on every level of existence'. both of those would seem to indicate both an ability to affect OUR reality (eradicating watchers from it), as well as the ability to traverse other realities (battling watchers on other planes).

and YES, sue does use her power to pierce the armor, but why would you assume sw could generate the same vibratory power as iw? btw, that it was hyperspatial energy was just speculation in the book. but it did seem -- whatever the energy -- that sue's powers worked in some special way to upset whatever energy the celestials are comprised of/use.

demigawd
Cool scans. Didn't help your argument much, though without feats by The One to prove beating him is truly impressive. I put SW above Watchers, too. stick out tongue

Originally posted by leonidas
the celestials were going to eradicate them from reality. not kill them all. the previous scan says they have struggled against each other 'on every level of existence'. both of those would seem to indicate both an ability to affect OUR reality (eradicating watchers from it), as well as the ability to traverse other realities (battling watchers on other planes).


Except it specifically said, "Erase us from this particular reality", showing that we're dealing with a single reality - and it took thousands of years to gather even that much energy. SW certainly didn't need thousands of years to alter reality.



Because she's a reality manipulator, maybe?



In Avengers Disassembled, Wanda showed the ability to summon or create people, no matter how powerful, and use them to her own purposes. If she can summon DORMAMMU and use his powers, something tells me it won't be too hard to summon a hyperspatial energy source and do away with the lot of them.

leonidas
<<Cool scans. Didn't help your argument much, though without feats by The One to prove beating him is truly impressive. I put SW above Watchers, too. >>

depends on what you think my argument is. i'm simply that it is possible the celestials CAN alter reality on some scale. in that same issue uatu and aaron battled and their battle occurred on multiple planes of reality and all around them things were . . . warped. if those 2 could do that, and it's clear the celestials are the more powerful entities seeing as how THEY were going to wipe out the watchers, it's not much of a leap to say the celestials possess similar abilities.

and its true it took 1000s of years to summon the power, but that would seem to me to be more an indication of the power of the one -- who incidentally was never in any other issues and so HAS no 'feats'. but again, it is pretty clear he is seen as the watchers' head honcho so i feel safe in assuming he is likely the most powerful of the watchers. i had this discussion a couple times recently -- not everything needs to be proven. some things can be logially discerned by context.

i'm not arguing that sw could or couldn't take them -- i never read disassembled or hom and so don't know her well enough to fairly comment. i'm just saying it seems logical to assume the celestials can indeed alter reality at least on some scale.

btw -- an interesting aside -- it seems the celestials were gonna eradicate the watchers via the implementation of some sort of genetic code that once unleashed would erase them from existence. i mentioned this before, but perhaps as master geneticists (possibly responsible for seeding the earth with the possibility of mutations?) they might be able to . . . erase sw by the same means. she's powerful, but she's still human, even if she is a mutant.

demigawd
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Cool scans. Didn't help your argument much, though without feats by The One to prove beating him is truly impressive. I put SW above Watchers, too. >>

depends on what you think my argument is. i'm simply that it is possible the celestials CAN alter reality on some scale. in that same issue uatu and aaron battled and their battle occurred on multiple planes of reality and all around them things were . . . warped. if those 2 could do that, and it's clear the celestials are the more powerful entities seeing as how THEY were going to wipe out the watchers, it's not much of a leap to say the celestials possess similar abilities.


Hmm...things around them were warped while they were fighting. ok, that's definitely a reality warping feat. That definitely proves that they're at least in the....Proteus range. confused



True. And in context we know:

Celestials are unable to alter reality on a universal or pocket universal scale - they have to burn off one planet at a time - a lengthy process

Watchers have altered reality in the immediate vicinity

So has Proteus

Which puts Watcher reality altering feats on par with Proteus

The One is the greatest of Watchers

Which puts his reality altering above Proteus level

We don't know how far above because he has no feats.

So we can conclude that The One is more powerful than Proteus. Not much else.



I don't have a problem with that, even if it's a sloppy conclusion to make. But there's a huge range of reality warping - Proteus, Jamie Braddock, Cube Beings, Jim Jaspers, etc. There's no real solid conclusion you can make just by *inferring* that Celestials *may* have reality warping powers.



Ah, now we're talking prep. smile

leonidas
<<Hmm...things around them were warped while they were fighting. ok, that's definitely a reality warping feat. That definitely proves that they're at least in the....Proteus range.>>

now you're being ridiculous. does proteus battle across multiple planes of reality? seriously demi, the complarison is silly. you clearly don't think proteus is more powerful than a watcher. if you DO think proteus is more powerful or capable than a watcher, well . . . roll eyes (sarcastic)

and the beauty of context is you can infer from it and extrapolate.

watcher>>>>>>>proteus
celestial>watcher

how far above watchers? i don't know. but if you're above a watcher you are in heady company. the conclusion that the celestials can alter reality is hardly a sloppy conclusion (though the evidence itself in book form may not be the strongest), rather it's one that can be reached quite easily and follows logically from what we know and have seen.

anyway, i still don't kow if sw could wipe out a celestial. if she can copy powers like you say, perhaps she could -- but sue's attack didn't destroy the celestial in any event. it just pushed him off our plane for a little while. she'd need to do more.

<<Ah, now we're talking prep.>>

why prep? they've already experimented with humans in the past. the attack is just speculation, but i don't see why they couldn't easily affect her genetically (make her human, maybe?), or even take her out psionically before she can muster an attack. they did that to thor.

demigawd
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Hmm...things around them were warped while they were fighting. ok, that's definitely a reality warping feat. That definitely proves that they're at least in the....Proteus range.>>

now you're being ridiculous. does proteus battle across multiple planes of reality? seriously demi, the complarison is silly. you clearly don't think proteus is more powerful than a watcher. if you DO think proteus is more powerful or capable than a watcher, well . . . roll eyes (sarcastic)


Ah, but now you're talking overall power. I'm comparing reality warping feats, as were you when trying to prove that Celestials can warp reality, despite never showing it. So since we're sticking to that theme here, in terms of reality warping feats, Watcher = Proteus. Are you saying I'm wrong? Can you prove it?



In overall power...but you were talking about reality warping, weren't you?



Why? Based on what? Extrapolate.



How? We know that a Watcher warped his surroundings, which isn't the same as changing reality, and certainly not on a scale to suggest that he's on the level with SW, which is what this whole exercise is about in the first place. Being able to fight on multiple planes and dimensions isn't proof of reality warping. That's an entirely separate power. Reality warping is pretty specific - it's changing reality from one thing to something else. Wanda changed the past, the present, brought back the dead, retroactively killed other characters, creating LIFE out of thin air. Show me one bit of evidence that either Celestials OR Watchers have or can do such any of the above.

I can accept assuming that Celestials can do things Watchers can do if it's stated in the comics that they share powersets AND Watchers have shown it. But Watchers haven't shown it, and it wasn't stated that they share powersets. So there's nothing to extrapolate from there.



I guess it depends on what constitutes a defeat.



Assuming Wanda is even just a mutant anymore. She seems beyond having or needing a physical form since she's all over the place.

kgkg
is SW above the concept of time? Now?

demigawd
Originally posted by kgkg
is SW above the concept of time? Now?

Considering she was able to alter not just the universe, but its history and timeline, I'd say so.

Beyonder
What the hell does it matter? Even if the Celestials can't alter reality, most reality warpers have yet match up to a Celestial, nor do they dare battle them.

The Rogue Watcher took over an entire galaxy and serperated it from the main universe. Heck that was right after the FF ran into Watcher's V. Celestials. Protues means what now? He, Cube Beings, and Watchers are still below a Celestial.

Cube Beings messing with reality and the universe:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=374152&perpage=20&highlight=Sharper+of+Worlds&pagenumber=2

After Beyonder lost and became Kosmos:
http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cels5lx.jpg
http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1cels3pw.jpg

kgkg
Originally posted by demigawd
Considering she was able to alter not just the universe, but its history and timeline, I'd say so.
Ya but that doesn't mean you can't be effected by Timelines does it?

just look at Pho.

Say Celestal go back in time and ...........................

demigawd
Originally posted by kgkg
Ya but that doesn't mean you can't be effected by Timelines does it?

just look at Pho.

Say Celestal go back in time and ...........................

Oh, so you're asking if she's vulnerable to going back in time and killing her? Well, time travel is always a tricky thing. By going back in time and killing her, you're actually just creating an alternate reality - I dunno, call it the Age of Not House of M (AONHM ), where Wanda never came into her powers. Is Wanda capable of going beyond that? Possibly, but she'd have to consciously make it happen. She wanted to keep the effects of the HoM to that core universe, so you'd be safe from her in that new timeline. Unless she wanted to get you.

The same principle worked in preventing the birth of the Phoenix in AOA. big grin



Those scans show Beyonder being blasted by a "sub-particle resonance disruptor effect" - and seeing as though he comprised the universe they were in, it blinked out temporarily as a side effect of the damage he took. That's not evidence of universal-scale reality manipulation. Sorry.

Beyonder
Originally posted by demigawd

Those scans show Beyonder being blasted by a "sub-particle resonance disruptor effect" - and seeing as though he comprised the universe they were in, it blinked out temporarily as a side effect of the damage he took. That's not evidence of universal-scale reality manipulation. Sorry.

laughing He left to another universe where he could be free to reign supreme and became part of it. That's evidence of universal-scale reality manipulation. Kubik and Shaper of Worlds come to that reality to find Beyonder. stick out tongue

demigawd
Originally posted by Beyonder
laughing He left to another universe where he could be free to reign supreme and became part of it. That's evidence of universal-scale reality manipulation. Kubik and Shaper of Worlds come to that reality to find Beyonder. stick out tongue

Nah, it was a pocket universe that Kubik held in his hand afterwards. It's evidence of the far less impressive Franklin-scale reality manipulation. *yawn*

kgkg
Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, so you're asking if she's vulnerable to going back in time and killing her? Well, time travel is always a tricky thing. By going back in time and killing her, you're actually just creating an alternate reality - I dunno, call it the Age of Not House of M (AONHM ), where Wanda never came into her powers. Is Wanda capable of going beyond that? Possibly, but she'd have to consciously make it happen. She wanted to keep the effects of the HoM to that core universe, so you'd be safe from her in that new timeline. Unless she wanted to get you.

Effecting one reality would change all the other Wandas(lol) would it not?

Because the others are byproducts of one reality, and change one thing And different realities might not occur.

ya similar to the ALL MIGHTHY Phoenix

demigawd
Originally posted by kgkg
Effecting one reality would change all the other Wandas(lol) would it not?

Because the others are byproducts of one reality, and change one thing And different realities might not occur.

ya similar to the ALL MIGHTHY Phoenix

What?

Oh wait, I know what you're talking about. Well, Wanda isn't an omniversal being or anything, so there's nothing to stop you from killing alternate less powerful Wandas. But killing a Wanda in one reality doesn't do squat to 616 reality's Wanda. Remember, AOA was an alternate timeline - it didn't affect 616. That's why they currently exist and continue on independently. It would be the same thing here. You've killed Wanda before she was born, which would create an alternate reality where there's no all-powerful Wanda. But HoM and 616 Wanda would remain. See what I'm saying?

Xplosive
Originally posted by demigawd
Considering she was able to alter not just the universe, but its history and timeline, I'd say so.

Never. She is not beyond that. Far from that.

King KAM
scarlet witch is a crock, to tell you the truth mutants are kinda a crock......but anywho.....i feel that the celestials win, scarlet with is OVERRATED!

demigawd
Originally posted by King KAM
scarlet witch is a crock, to tell you the truth mutants are kinda a crock......but anywho.....i feel that the celestials win, scarlet with is OVERRATED!

Thank you for your valuable input.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Never. She is not beyond that. Far from that.

You too. Pleasure as always.

King KAM
Originally posted by demigawd
Thank you for your valuable input.



You too. Pleasure as always.

No prob man....i help when i can.....














b*tch

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
She's NOT sane, but she doesn't have to be in order to beat Celestials. Sanity is a necessary component to exercise good judgment in things like...choosing who should remain a mutant and who shouldn't. It's not necessary to kick somebody's ass.

To effectively employ her reality warping powers to the level she'd need to defeat a Celestial let alone the entire race Wanda herself would need to have a firm grip on reality or she would get lost in her powers as she has done as stated by Dr Strange in Disassembled and that was the reason he was able to take her out. Her level of sanity effects her decision making and reactions etc and against the race of Celestials she would need to be on top form. Wanda as stated in a flashback in House of M 7 could not have created or caused House of M without the aid of her brother and Xavier. Therefore she is NOT.In her deranged state she is far more vulnerable to assault especially from vast reality manipulators. Against the race of Celestials she would fall apart.

Originally posted by demigawd
Equating skyfather reality warping to Wanda reality warping is about as effective as equating Galactus' eyeblasts with Cyclops. That is to say, NOT effective. Take a better angle, GS.

I never did that. You misread/misunderstood select whatevers applicable either way you got it wrong.


Originally posted by demigawd
I read it - it's your usual bunch of crap combined with scans that don't show anything. Face facts, GS, EVERY manifestation of Phoenix has shown vulnerability. Dark Phoenix was beaten by a laser, Phoenix I was beaten by Magneto, and later by a Magneto clone (who may very well be a creation of....ta daaa...WANDA), and later still had her "crown" disconnected and later still was in a terribly weakened state. Phoenix II was beaten by the Beyonder and unable to defeat Galactus. As a "force of creation" her role in combat is unseen and likely non-existent. As an avatar, her record is less-than-impressive. Wanda would simply "jgg" Jean and that would be the end of that. Wanda wins handily, regardless of your unsupported "tipareth" mumbo jumbo. laughing

Phoenix after the M'kraan crystal incident right up until her suicide in the DP Saga as stated on panel many times (and as ive posted in various threads over the last month) had self-imposed psychic circuit breakers placed around her power cutting it off to powerful mutant level. Jason Wyngardes manipulations gave her a hunger for power which resulted in the slow degradation of those breakers (and therefore a slow increase in power as ive also shown in threads recently). When Phoenix faced Magneto in hi sbase as stated on panel she was winning and pouring on the power until she reached that self imposed limit at which point he got the better of her. Prior to the battle on the moon Xavier had helped Jean erect her psychic circuit breakers again as is (or at least should be) common knowledge. The assault on Cyclops shattered some of those limitations and her power started to return. Jean as stated on panel killed herself prior to this happening.

As for the Magneto clone thing (Jggg lol) you've already stated on these forums that its obvious that it was a plot device and that when Whirly was trying to use the same argument against us that we (me and Cresh) should ignore him and that he was trolling and had nothing to fall back on. So why are you now doing the same? Desperate measures and all i guess.

Phoenix 2 as stated on panel was nowhere near he mothers level in power. She drew on the Phoenix Force in limited amounts to boost her own abilities. That was her full extent. Her getting defeated by Beyonder makes sense and is of no issue to myself. However when the Beyonder got an insight into Jeans perceptions via Rachel (as she gave him his loaned power back) he dropped to his knees and was humbled. Sensory overload. So yeah im happy with that.

As for Phoenix 2's battles against Galactus:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4189/excalibur025030be.th.jpg

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1647/excalibur025044hl.th.jpg

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2973/excalibur025158sk.th.jpg

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/496/excalibur025168df.th.jpg

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3672/excalibur025183qk.th.jpg

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/8514/excalibur025197pm.th.jpg

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3240/excalibur025209py.th.jpg

Whatever are you going on about?

Originally posted by demigawd
I know about the origins of Eternity, Galactus, etc. And I know it has nothing to do with Phoenix laughing. You're trying to cast the Phoenix Force as an aspect of God, making her essentially untouchable. That whole bizarre theory aside, Jean is NOT the Phoenix Force, Jean is an avatar - and she's shown limited power and even more limited knowledge of how to use it. Look at those same scans you like to shove in people's faces - she wasn't even the wisest avatar there. It took someone else to explain things to her. You'd think if she were an aspect of God, she'd be a bit wiser. You'd think if she were an aspect of God, she wouldn't have to listen to a "they" all the time.

Ive already posted conclusive evidence showing that Phoenix is responsible for the creation of both Eternity and Galactus so i dont need to go to the effort again. Most here are satisfied with that point at least. Good try.

As for the God connection. Ive posted a bit about that on this thread. Read at your leisure:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=364141&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

Jean Grey is the human face of Phoenix/the Crown Consciousness. The essence of the supreme being given human form. Your ideas your views on what such a being should or shouldnt be like are not law. Theyre just your personal views. Either way the connection is established like it or lump it. By all accounts Jesus wasnt omniscient and he was very much vulnerable and had doubts and sought advice. I guess that means he wasnt an aspect of God either?

Originally posted by demigawd
Fact - Jean is NOT the Phoenix Force. "They" are.

Fact - Jean gets her power and her orders from "They".

Fact - by extension, those powers are limited to something less than "they"

Fact - those powers have not been enough to put her solidly over Galactus, or even the Beyonder

Fact - Jean is NOT all powerful, even if the Phoenix Force is.

Fact - Wanda kicks the crap out of Jean any day of the week and Jean will use the excuse that "they" won't let her win. laughing

Jean is the human face of the Force. Just a human shell which the power manifests into creation as. Thats stated in New X-men 128 and shown in New X-men 152. Your opinions on the matter in face of comic book statements and on panel evidence are irrelevant.

The likes of Classic X-men, New X-men and Endsong conclusively showed that Jean and Phoenix are one, that Jean is and always was Phoenix in human form. Phoenix is a level of consciousness that manifests through the minds of sentient being so in human form the power would manifest in the same way. That is why Jean is the White Phoenix of Crown as opposed to the other avatars. The issue is talked about in-depth in this very long thread. Read it or dont its up to you:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368313&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Are you kidding me, GS? Clint's an expert marksman - that was a deathblow. You can tell because Wanda is spewing blood....that means it punctured her lungs. He was TRYING to kill her. In fact, read the quote, "I was hoping if I couldn't kill you for all the $&%* you've done I thought at least I'd maybe snap you out of your crazy". And this was AFTER declaring in the previous issue that he was going to kill her. He was TRYING to kill her and figured that if it didn't work (her being a god and all) that it would at least snap her out of it. Neither worked...when he shot her, she was OUT. DEAD. Then she just got up like everything was cool. Look at her speech pattern. It's not the usual "Clint....Barton....why?" speech pattern that dying people have. She was absolutely fine...just undid everything. She's clearly beyond physical death.

Not at all Demi. Having an arrow partially pierce your lungs will not kill you instantly. For all we know she negated the effects of the arrow on her body which she could do because she wasnt killed instantly. That is still NOT CONCLUSIVE proof that she is beyond physical death. When you have some then you can make such claims but until then we can assume that she can very well be killed.



Originally posted by demigawd
And yet Sue Storm completely destroyed one with her own meager energies, Thor blasted a hole in one, and Jean destroyed the hand of one. Physical damage.

Like I said before - Wanda just needs to blast them with hyperspatial energies and they're all done. Simple task. But I acknowledge that it'll be harder to beat them than it would be for her to beat, say, Wolverine. Or Phoenix. laughing

Yes very funny. Sue could hurt them because she applied the same energies which the Celestials power stems from.

With Thor as shown the Celestial wanted Thor to enter its body

With Jean she used the last remaining part of the Phoenix within in her to destroy its hand (pre-retcon please note) so of course it was going to happen.


Originally posted by demigawd
that doesn't make any sense. Roma said it could reach the Ascension itself. There's no two ways to interpret that - that means the White Hot Room itself is threatened. The White Hot room was stated to be beyond the universe....not beyond creation. Nothing except TOAA is beyond creation. You're stretching A LOT to say otherwise just to save your precious White Hot Home.

Whatever. Im not going to argue this point anymore because its irrelevant anyway. Meggan stopped the chaos wave which explains why none of the higher powers got involved. There services would have been overkill.



Originally posted by demigawd
Meggan never stopped the Chaos Wave - she sealed the breach. Big difference. Also, the Phoenix Force MAY be God's power, but the White Hot Rooom is part of creation. You have no evidence whatsoever to support a position to the contrary. Therefore, Roma's statement that the Chaos Wave could reach the Ascension is accurate. You can't spin it any other way, no matter how much you'd like to. "Reaching to Ascension" is reaching the very throne of god....it means the Chaos Wave theatens EVERYTHING.


As aforementioned irrelevant because

a) Meggan did indeed stop the Chaos Wave singlehandedly

b) Chaos Wave isnt conclusively generated by Wanda


Meggan stopping the Chaos Wave:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8326/uncannyxmen465page209yw.th.jpg

Shhhhh!!!


Originally posted by demigawd
I kid you not...read up on Avengers. Lord Templar and Pagan are both chaos beings and Wanda's powers were compatible with theirs, which is why she also got strange effects whenever battling them. They are both said to generate chaos energy. This was before it was considered "magical". In fact, it was referred to as Chaos Energy in Galactus: The Devourer and in Avengers #59.

Not all reality warpers are the same, just like not all energy projectors are the same. Wanda's powers work by generating chaos energy (which, as Dr. Strange said, is not magical). This chaos energy, when unchecked, causes random effects (as we've seen in within Roma's citadel where there are multiple versions of characters changing throughout the multiverse). Wanda learned how to harness that power so that SHE dictated the changes made by the chaos energy. In the process, she unmakes reality reality via the chaos wave, then re-makes it in her own image.

Nice speculated explanation of the nature of Wandas powers but thats all it is. After Dissassembled Chaos magic was retconned out of Marvel. Therefore Wandas connection to chaos magic was dismissed. On top of that its stated in that same issue that instead she is a reality warper. Theres no getting around that. Chaos magic does not exist, Wanda is a reality warper, the Chaos wave isnt conclusively generated by Wanda, chaos wave is just a reference to the fact that it causes a collapse of reality and the concept of order. Romas description detailed its effects and nowhere was it stated or even made out that Wanda generated the wave. It was however inferred that the wave was triggered off by Wandas tampering with reality. Either way until you can prove conclusively (or at least give better support to your opinion) that Wanda generated the chaos wave then you just cant make such claims.

Originally posted by demigawd
So yes, Wanda very much created the Chaos Wave, being that Chaos Energy is the source of her power

Nuh-uh im sorry to say. WAS the source of her power prior to chaos magic being retconned and then Wanda being deemed a reality warper.



Originally posted by demigawd
Who said anything about dimensional portals? You can traverse dimensions without leaving the universe. Those doorways in Man-Thing and Exiles are doorways to REALITIES, not dimensions. And they're left open and they're just fine. The "don't leave the doors open" concept is unique to the M'Kraan Crystal, nothing else, otherwise reality would always be threatened by open doorways...and that's simply not the case. Post up that AOA Gambit scan again - read what it says - it's specifically the M'Kraan Crystal's doorways that cause the blinking out of reality.

Im not gonna argue on this point any longer. It really doesnt matter anymore. You have no proof that Wanda generates the chaos waves and we know that a vast assortment of beings can halt their progress if Meggan can. So whatever you say mate.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Meggan didn't stop the wave - she sealed the breach. Wanda's chaos energy was fine and dandy. The abstracts didn't get involved because they don't care about a single universe -

Incorrect on both accounts. Ive proved above that you were just presenting your opinion as fact. Nothing short of garbage. Meggan stopped the chaos wave. A handful of Excalibur sealed the breach. Universe saved big deal.

As for the abstracts thing how do you account for the IG saga or Marvel: The End? You appear somewhat confused my friend. Its the likes of LT and Phoenix who dont care for the fate of a single universe. The abstracts as universal beings would very much give a damn.


Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda only INTENDED for her effects to reach throughout the universe. That doesn't mean that lacks the ability to go beyond that, as tearing a hole in the multiverse proves.

She did only intend for that however you have no evidence whatsoever to prove that she has multiversal power. You have no proof she generated the chaos wave. Thats not stated or depicted. What is stated is that a trans temporal tsunami has occurred as a result of an alteration to 616. Wandas tamperings ripped a hole in the walls of reality. That does not prove she has multiversal level power. Could she open a door into another reality and apply her power there? Yeah im sure she could but thats not multiversal, not if she cant do it simulatneously. You dont know for a fact that she could warp reality over more than one universe simultaneously.





Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda is STILL beyond them, and any suggestion to the contrary is pure speculation on your part

Agreed. Just like its speculation your part that she cant be killed physically or that she generated the chaos wave herself.


Originally posted by demigawd
Like I said before, it's totally invalid to compare skyfather reality warping powers (which are extremely limited) to Wanda's,

I never did that for the last time. I merely said that beings from that level up tend to have reality warping powers and you yourself stated that they said they were best qualified to tutor Franklin in the use of his reality warping talents so what does that suggest to you. Either way if you want to discount that point i can discount Wandas immortality and generation of the chaos wave. Look what you're left with. Certainly not someone who could beat the entire race of Celestials let alone Phoenix.



Originally posted by demigawd
And, like I said - there's NOTHING to suggest that Franklin is supposed to be even more powerful than his pocket universe feat. Nada.

I really dont care anymore i dont require that point to support my case. Yours however minus all speculation is looking very shaky indeed.

Originally posted by demigawd

Using his power taxes Magneto's body - of course when he's an old man he can't process those energies the same way, just like Quicksilver will become slower when he's 80 than he is now. Reality warping is an entirely mental exercise - it's subject entirely to control and has nothing to do with physical maturity. C'mon GS, you know better. Xavier isn't more powerful now than when he first got his powers - his control is better.

Generating reality warping powers and the act of applying them still takes it toll physically. Being in your prime means you can apply such powers at higher levels than you could as a child and for longer so yes most people would consider that to be more powerful. Are you trying to suggest that using reality warping powers takes no physical toll on the body whatsoever?



Originally posted by demigawd
Their powers are physical. Namor didn't gain additional abilities.

Yes he did, just ask DarkCrawler.



Originally posted by demigawd
No it hasn't - her ability to use it grew. The power itself was the same.

More opinion dressed as fact as i will no show:

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/2253/dsc0001310rx.th.jpg

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/4315/dsc0001414ln.th.jpg

Dont grow do they? SHHHHH!!!

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
You have no evidence that they were capable of doing what Franklin did. If they were capable, they would have had to go through that big long, multi-issue mess. They would have blinked away the pocket universe and been done with it. The fact is, they COULDN'T blink it away...they didn't have the power. And until you show they do...they don't

Cool. As previously mentioned not worth arguing over because the point is not required. Prove Wanda is beyond physical death, prove she herself generated the chaos wave and then i'll get back to you. Listen i dont want more insufficiently supported opinion trying to persuade me to acknowledge this BS. Come up with the goods Demi or bow out the thread. eek!

Originally posted by demigawd
reality warping doesn't really require much of the physical body. It's NOT the same thing as magnetism, or super strength, or optic blasts. It's a finesse ability, not a brute force ability. You never see reality warpers straining to do something....either they can warp something or they can't. So Franklin's age has nothing to do with his level of power, just how much he can consciously do. There's nothing to suggest that Franklin is capable of doing anything greater than creating a pocket universe. Nobody said he could, nothing has shown he could. Nobody has said his potential is higher than that, nobody said he'll become even more powerful as he gets older. You have nothing to go on.

So youre trying to say that reality warping power doesnt tax the person physically? Is that really what youre trying to tell me? Absurd laughing out loud

Originally posted by demigawd
And just because the Celestials feel they're best equipped to train Franklin doesn't mean they have the same powers. I'm bigger and stronger than my sifu in Kung Fu class, but he's wiser and understands the concepts and principles of fighting better - so he's well equipped to train me, even though I'm actually more powerful than he is. It's the same thing here. Franklin may well be greater than all the Celestials, but their training is top notch and necessary to help Franklin learn to use his powers in a conscious way.

So you do think that theyre likely to have reality warping powers then. Well you're analogy certainly suggests that as does the fact that as aforementioned most beings skyfather and above have reality warping powers. And for the last time me saying that does not mean im equating skyfather father abilities to Wanda. How you interpreted that in the first place is beyond me. LOL.



Originally posted by demigawd
Actually, I'm afraid none of the points were dealt with. sad

So my points stand:

1)Franklin has accomplished a feat that the Celestials couldn't duplicate without working together and rendering one of their own comatose, and couldn't undo it without destroying (using lame tactics like boiling the seas) one planet after another.

2)That feat still doesn't match Wanda

3) There's no evidence that Franklin's power would grow, as opposed to his control.

Wanda still wins. Handily. But A for effort! Happy Dance

Please acknowledge that Asema was depowered by the Dreaming Celestial and for all we know just destroying Franklins universe would have had a negative affect on the 616 reality. So they could have been using careful measures. Either way its a race of vastly powerful beings, you have no sufficent proof that Wanda is beyond physical death, Wanda is insane and required aid to perform the house of m feat, so with all that in mind i really cant see the poor dear lasting a round. sad

It was a wasted effort mate and for that im really sorry. sad

Really. eek! laughing out loud

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Jean Grey Phoenix does NOT equal Phoenix Force. Otherwise, if she were all powerful, would "jgg" have happened? Would she have needed to "let herself die" *cough*bullshit*cough* in order to bring herself back in the future? She's NOT all powerful, and if you acknowledge that the PF is all power, then you have to acknowledge that Jean isn't the Phoenix Force.





She didnt have to die to appear in the future . Where did you get that from? Her existence in 616 wasnt necessary for her to carry out her Phoenix work so she allowed herself to die. When her work was needed she manifested back into creation via a Phoenix egg.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, so Jean was created by not PF, eh? GS might take issue with that.

Wanda beats Jean Grey the psionic
Wanda beats Jean Grey as a Phoenix Avatar ("jgg!"wink
Wanda beats Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix ("laser!"wink
Wanda goes back in time and kills Xavier a la AOA (Jean Grey never becomes Phoenix)
Wanda stops the Big Bang from happening - no manifestation of the PF
Wanda destroys the White Hot Room - no more Phoenix Force

Tell me, is there any of the million or so versions of GS's Phoenix bullshit that I've left out? Wanda is eager to destroy! laughing

Lame reasoning and all of those encounters have been explained previously, especially the Jgg one which you discounted yourself.

Jean Grey is the human face of Phoenix. How Phoenix manifests into creation in person to carry out micro0surgery from within reality. All of that was revealed in New X-men and confirmed in Endsong. They are indeed one.

Jean actually did become Phoenix in AOA. If you'd rea the One Shot you'd know that. Shhh!! eek!

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
She didn't defeat Galactus...he ran out of energy and said it was because she draws on potential energy - life, which is a bigger store than his. That's all. If she were all powerful, she'd blink Galactus away, or turn him in Galan for fun, then turn him back as a stern lesson. It wasn't decisive like that. Holding the universe in her hand isn't much of a combat feat, is it? It's just fun to look at. And seeing every cosmic kneeling before her was a dramatization of what the Stranger was AFRAID could happen....it didn't happen.

What else you got?

Would she beat LT? Probably not. And neither could Phoenix.

Phoenix wasnt there to fight Galactus and wasnt there to kill Galactus. She asked him to stop destroying the planet and then destroyed his machinery. The resultant explosion hurt Galactus and flung him miles. She apologised and then he attacked her. While his attacks did nothing hers had him on the ropes and then he gave up after he had run out of energy. If Phoenix was out to kill him then she would have done so. Youre an intelligent lad so why the superficial analysis? embarrasment

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
That NEVER happened. NOBODY kneeled before her. That was a visualization describing what Stranger was afraid could happen. That doesn't count as a feat in the slightest! C'mon now!

Incorrect Demi. Once again. It was a visualization. One that was supported by Eternity who confirmed that the power of Phoenix does indeed bring about the replacement of Lt and the abstracts every creation cycle. The Stranger however wanted to do it on his own timetable and use the power to help him survive that process Phoenix brings about naturally. Therefore leaving himself the supreme being of reality hence the pic of LT and the abstracts bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger.

We clear on that now? confused

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Marvel didn't show any such thing. It was the Stranger's theory that it could happen. Nothing more.





As previously mentioned incorrect. The replacement was a process that occurs naturally, a process brought about by Phoenix. Stranger wanted to speed up the process and use the power to survive it.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Wrong. He's afraid of the potential of humankind - he's afraid of a RACE of Phoenices.

There is one Phoenix Force and many avatars. He feared being replaced in the creation cycle which Phoenix controls and so hoped to access the power via Jean to help himself. Jean is Phoenixes human face she has a special relationship with the power that makes her the White Crown Phoenix. The closest thing Phoenix has to a human form.



Originally posted by demigawd
it's the nature of the business. But it wasn't sudden. She was always hinted at having the potential back when she created her children. During Busiek's run, she became second only to Thor in power....and growing. Her alternation of 616 and her Chaos Wave that destroyed several UNIVERSES show the level of power she has reached. She threatens all of creation....including the Ascension (seat of God).

Don't shoot the messenger...I'm just telling it like it is. smile

Far from it Demi. She altered 616 and triggered a chaos wave. Nowhere does it state she generated it only states it was the result of the alteration of 616. When you have some proof you can use the chaos wave as a feat. No the chaos wave didnt destroy universes. Where did you get that from? It reached Otherworld mate but thats it. You think differently then come up wit the goods. Either way its irrelevant the chaos wave was topped by Meggan so truthfully the ascension was never in any danger.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by illadelph12
This fight is a catch 22.

I'm actually leaning towards Scarlet Witch.

She's not just a reality warper, she can consciously control causality and it's off shoot concepts; probability and possibility. She could cause all of the Cellestials' powers to overload causing spontaneous combustion of their skulls by them simply being in her presence, or nullify their abilities altogether and have them all suffer from a mass bout of amnesia and forget what they were doing and what their powers were.

As powerful as Cellestials are, they're not above the concept of causality.

Numbers are on the Cellestial's side, but SW has an enormous ace up her sleave. She's a walking retcon.

She can indeed do all those things however she is not exempt from a physical death until thats been stated/ shown conclusively on panel and she is also insane which would affect her decision making abilities and reactions in battle. To top it off to pull off a feat as high level as house of M she required mental support and direction from Xavier and Pietro. Against a Celestial she'll probably win against their entire race NO WAY!! stick out tongue

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, well, in that case....what was *I* thinking?

Indeed. wink

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Don't worry dear warriors...Phoenix gets buried here TODAY. I'll handle it MYSELF! HAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait...this is about Scarlet Witch vs. a Celestial, right? Where did Phoenix come from?

Not gonna happen. eek!

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, so you're asking if she's vulnerable to going back in time and killing her? Well, time travel is always a tricky thing. By going back in time and killing her, you're actually just creating an alternate reality - I dunno, call it the Age of Not House of M (AONHM ), where Wanda never came into her powers. Is Wanda capable of going beyond that? Possibly, but she'd have to consciously make it happen. She wanted to keep the effects of the HoM to that core universe, so you'd be safe from her in that new timeline. Unless she wanted to get you.

The same principle worked in preventing the birth of the Phoenix in AOA. big grin





Not so sure about that timeline thing. That wasnt the case in Young Avengers. By travelling to the past and making alterations 616 present was altered. AOA's a strange case i dunno to be honest but either way no proof that she is beyond physical death so what does it matter.

Phoenix existed in AOA so what are you going on about?

leonidas
<<in terms of reality warping feats, Watcher = Proteus. Are you saying I'm wrong?>>

in terms of reality warping feats as shown in book, you are correct. at the saem time proteus could not alter reality in anyway that would bother a watcher. at the least (until i find some visual evidence of a watcher altering reality) a watcher and other cosmics have some undefined ability to negate/be unaffected by reality altering powers.

it seems logical to assume the celestials have:

(A) some form of reality power (undefined/unknown extent)
(B) a form of protection against reality altering power (which is again undefined but clearly well above cube beings or a cube could wipe out a celestial easily)

you'll say sw is above cubes and maybe she is. but is she so far above that she could overcome whatever defense the celestials have against it? any answer, yes or no is speculatory. remember i'm only playing devil's advocate and trying to show that celestials MAY be able to withstand her reality attacks.

<<Assuming Wanda is even just a mutant anymore. She seems beyond having or needing a physical form since she's all over the place.>>

seems more logical than assuming she isn't. but i STILL don't know why they couldn't just psionically wupe her mind to make her forget her powers BEFORE she even has a chance to use them . . ..

golem370
Exitar is far beyond any type of Galactus. Galactus was compared to kubik and Marvel said Exitar was definitely more power then Kubik.

demigawd
*sigh*

As tempting as it is to finally end this Phoenix nonsense once and for all by battling to the very end, I don't have the time or the patience to wade through your filibustering tactics. Some of us have jobs, haha.

So let's cut through the details and look at the bigger picture of our disagreements.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Her level of sanity effects her decision making and reactions etc and against the race of Celestials she would need to be on top form. Wanda as stated in a flashback in House of M 7 could not have created or caused House of M without the aid of her brother and Xavier. Therefore she is NOT.In her deranged state she is far more vulnerable to assault especially from vast reality manipulators. Against the race of Celestials she would fall apart.


The assumption is that when fighting them she IS in top form. Her instability is the result of being confused about where she is, what she wants, and where to go. She was quite calm and happy in HoM 8. Made irrational decisions, yes. But there's a difference between being confused about what decisions to make with your power and the very singular goal of "destroy those celestials".

The support of Quicksilver helped encourage and stabilize her because of lack of confidence - not lack of power. That doesn't apply here.




Yes yes, I know. The point is that as a human host, there are limits to her power that MUST be taken into consideration. While she has full access to the omnipotence of the Phoenix Force, she doesn't appear to have access to any of the omniscence of it....both components are vital against the likes of Eternity, LT, Chaos and Order, any of the DC gods, etc. You're not taking that into consideration. You never take that into consideration, and that's what I take issue with.

My point is that in the case with Phoenix I AND Phoenix II, her undoing has always come from her humanity. She's not as powerful as you portray her to be for that very reason. And everything I referenced that you tried to debunk is evidence of that. You can cite circuit breakers and holding back and psychic blocks and corruption and granting limited powers all you want....it all bolsters my point - she's a human and will always be limited because of it.



I accused Whirly of trolling, not of that being a plot device. The feat is valid and real. You can't pick and choose what to disregard, especially if it's WITHIN THE SAME STORY. laughing




She was confident she could beat him eventually, but the amount of damage would be huge. Do you think, say, Eternity would have that kind of trouble? That puts Phoenix squarely between Thor and Dr. Strange in power! eek!



No...the Phoenix Force sparked the creation of the manifestations of those entities in any given universe. That's not to say that Jean Grey popped up and made them, then went on to have a planetary stroke by Magneto. You attempt to strike a delicate balance by IMPLYING that because the Phoenix Force kicks off the creation of all the abstracts in a given universe that Jean Grey can somehow hope to defeat them all in combat. She cannot.



Does anyone else find the humor in GS saying this?



An excellent point, actually. An aspect of God, yes. But he got taken down by a spear, nails and some wood.

Likewise, the Phoenix Force may be an aspect of God, but that doesn't mean that Jean Grey could defeat, say, Lucifer just because of it. Her human frailties and judgment prevent her from making the decisions necessary to defeat someone who has both the power of creation AND the wisdom to use it.



Also a funny statement from you considering that neither of these really support anything you're saying at all. I turned your own scans against you....you think the Jean Grey who let her emotions get in the way of making a truly godly decision is a match for abstract concepts that exist beyond emotion? Do you think Jean Grey could have stood up to the assault Thanos took from the Abstracts? Her mind would break in two. SCOTT SUMMERS fuks her head up, and you're telling me she's beyond the control of LOVE AND HATE?

If you tell me "yes", our busness here is concluded because you're beyond hope.



You're saying the same thing and not getting the point....or maybe you just don't want to get the point. Jean is one with the power....but she is NOT one with the Phoenix Force. If she were, she wouldn't be confused about what's happening, and what should she be doing, and she certainly wouldn't be told by another avatar what "they" want her to do. To be at the level of power YOU want her to be, she'd have to be one with Phoenix consciousness....she isn't, and frankly, I don't think she's even capable.

For all your scans, all your essays, you have yet to realize that singular truth.

Sir Whirlysplat
Well Demi!!!

You have convinced me!!! eek!

Keep the faith smile


Stay Whirly rock

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all Demi. Having an arrow partially pierce your lungs will not kill you instantly. For all we know she negated the effects of the arrow on her body which she could do because she wasnt killed instantly. That is still NOT CONCLUSIVE proof that she is beyond physical death. When you have some then you can make such claims but until then we can assume that she can very well be killed.


Hm, let's see:

Hawkeye is an expert marksman
Hawkeye says in HoM 6, "I'm going to kill her"
Hawkeye shoots her THROUGH THE HEART with an arrow
Wanda is completely still in a pool of blood
Wanda asks without a hint of pain in her voice, "Why did you do that?"
Wanda pops back up, the arrow goes away and she's in a totally different position one panel later
Hawkeyes SAYS he was trying to kill her, or at least get her to come to her senses - hence the deathblow

I don't know how much more proof you need. You remind me of Dave Chappelle at the R. Kelly trial

"He needs to be singing while peeing on the girl, while holding up his ID, with his mother standing there and a police officer present to positively identify him. Otherwise...that ain't him!"



Wanda summoned DORMAMMU and used his power. You don't think she can summon hyperspatial energy?

Fight over. Discussion over, really.



No, she sealed the breach. See that crack in the background? That's the breach. She stemmed the tide of the chaos wave long enough to seal the breach...but as we know, she was vulnerable to Wanda's Chaos power



"He needs to be singing while peeing on the girl, while holding up his ID, with his mother standing there and a police officer present to positively identify him. Otherwise...that ain't him!"




Chaos MAGIC was dismissed by Strange as not existing...but the fact that chaos energy was magical in nature was always speculation anyway. What IS real is chaos energy, as Templar and Pagan proved. The belief was that Wanda's chaos power was magical in nature. Strange dismissed it...it's causal in nature. But that doesn't mean that there's no chaos energy, just that it's not magical. You're reading too much into that line. So the point still stands...Wanda created the CHAOS wave with CHAOS energy that she's always had at her command since the time she created HEXES that caused....CHAOS.



A vast assortment of beings can seal the breach she accidentally opened. Bully for them! See what happens if she decides to PURPOSELY rip the whole thing open.

kgkg
i am wayne brady b*tch

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect on both accounts. Ive proved above that you were just presenting your opinion as fact. Nothing short of garbage.


Again with the irony!



So are you telling me that Wanda's power poses no treat to the universe? Are you saying Roma was exaggerating? Is that what you're saying? Because if you're not saying it...then what ARE you saying? Abstracts get involved sometimes, but Roma is the OMNIVERSAL guardian for a reason...she guards the omniverse. If she's worried about Wanda, it's because the omniverse is threatened. It couldn't possibly be more straightforward than that.

Where was Phoenix when Thanos had the HOTU? He's less of a threat than cosmic bacteria?



You mean the images of an alternate reality Rogue changing and intersecting with other alternate reality Rogues isn't evidence of multiversal effects? Pah!





Dealt with previously.

"Hawkeye. Why did you do that?" > "Jgg!"




Area at worst. Planetary at best. Nothing special.



That they understand the nature of the universe well enough to teach him how to apply his powers. You don't have to have the same abilities as someone to teach how they to use their powers well. Last I checked, Xavier didn't have wings, couldn't fire optic blasts, didn't create ice and isn't super agile. But he was best qualified to show them how to use their powers correctly and responsibly.



Correct. It's a mentally based power. The point is moot anyway - there are no quotes or anything to show that he is capable of greater feats. And more importantly....nothing to show that the Celestials are capable of doing the same thing. They STRUGGLED to undo it! If they were remotely capable of even pocket universal power, they wouldn't have to resort to such lame tactics as throwing planets to fight Thanos.



She was touched by the Phoenix. We know this already. So...what?

illadelph12
Hmm...

Demi's formed a very sound and compelling argument.

Part of the reason I back Scarlet Witch over the Cellestials in this thread (and over Phoenix in the other thread) is because for all their powers and feats, neither are above choice or probability, which Scarlet Witch controls.

People are confused by thinking Wanda is simply a reality warper. It's not so much the results as much as how she meets those ends. You really need to grasp the concept that she consciously controls causality, which is so far, fundamentally, beyond mere reality warping, it's not even funny.

She literally controls possibility and probabilty.

If it's possible, she can make it so, and literally, anything is possible.

Impossible is simply an excuse for human failings. A false precept we buy into that limits our perception, and influence, upon our reality.

But anyway, not to get too philosophical:

Unless you are beyond these concepts, Wanda has you by the nuts.

And considering that all sentient beings in creation are not above choice, Wanda has an ace up her sleave in combat.

Unless you're God/TOAA itself, LT (who is bound by purpose and not of free will) or the abstract being Anamoly, your fu*ked fighting Wanda, regardless of your "purpose".

So long as you have free will and exist, you're a variable in a possibility.

Her abilities are a literary loophole.

She can be written to do literally anything save being the Creator, and it would be well within the realms of her abilities.

kgkg
Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

Demi's formed a very sound and compelling argument.

Part of the reason I back Scarlet Witch over the Cellestials in this thread (and over Phoenix in the other thread) is because for all their powers and feats, neither are above choice or probability, which Scarlet Witch controls.

People are confused by thinking Wanda is simply a reality warper. It's not so much the results as much as how she meets those ends. You really need to grasp the concept that she consciously controls causality, which is so far, fundamentally, beyond mere reality warping, it's not even funny.

She literally controls possibility and probabilty.

If it's possible, she can make it so, and literally, anything is possible.

Impossible is simply an excuse for human failings. A false precept we buy into that limits our perception, and influence, upon our reality.

But anyway, not to get too philosophical:

Unless you are beyond these concepts, Wanda has you by the nuts.

And considering that all sentient beings in creation are not above choice, Wanda has an ace up her sleave in combat.

Unless you're God/TOAA itself, LT (who is bound by purpose and not of free will) or the abstract being Anamoly, your fu*ked fighting Wanda, regardless of your "purpose".

So long as you have free will and exist, you're a variable in a possibility.

Her abilities are a literary loophole.

She can be written to do literally anything save being the Creator, and it would be well within the realms of her abilities.
WOW good stuff

smart

demigawd
Most of your other posts are just rehashes of the same stuff, but some miscellaneous points:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
She didnt have to die to appear in the future . Where did you get that from? Her existence in 616 wasnt necessary for her to carry out her Phoenix work so she allowed herself to die. When her work was needed she manifested back into creation via a Phoenix egg.
YOU said she did. You said she was needed elsewhere, so she "let" herself die. Otherwise, there's no way Magneto could have killed her, right? Or are you changing your story....again?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lame reasoning and all of those encounters have been explained previously, especially the Jgg one which you discounted yourself.

Jean Grey is the human face of Phoenix. How Phoenix manifests into creation in person to carry out micro0surgery from within reality. All of that was revealed in New X-men and confirmed in Endsong. They are indeed one.

Jean actually did become Phoenix in AOA. If you'd rea the One Shot you'd know that. Shhh!! eek!

Because Sinister MADE it happen. And because the timeline for already fixed. Remember Jafph's (I can NEVER spell his name right) words - unless the timeline is fixed, Phoenix can never repair the Crystal. The recurring theme here is that Phoenix always needs a catalyst. If you want to beat Phoenix, prevent that catalyst.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix wasnt there to fight Galactus and wasnt there to kill Galactus. She asked him to stop destroying the planet and then destroyed his machinery. The resultant explosion hurt Galactus and flung him miles. She apologised and then he attacked her. While his attacks did nothing hers had him on the ropes and then he gave up after he had run out of energy. If Phoenix was out to kill him then she would have done so. Youre an intelligent lad so why the superficial analysis? embarrasment

Wow...that's quite a twist on facts. She won ONLY because he exausted his energy supplies, as he proceeded to explain to her, which of course freaked her out and caused her to flee. It was basically a stalemate until that point.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect Demi. Once again. It was a visualization. One that was supported by Eternity who confirmed that the power of Phoenix does indeed bring about the replacement of Lt and the abstracts every creation cycle. The Stranger however wanted to do it on his own timetable and use the power to help him survive that process Phoenix brings about naturally. Therefore leaving himself the supreme being of reality hence the pic of LT and the abstracts bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger.

We clear on that now? confused

No shit! The only problem with your post is that it doesn't in any way, shape or form address my point - that the kneeling was visualization only, and nothing that actually happened.

the Darkone
Celestials wins, dude they will gang rape her.

demigawd
Almost done!


Originally posted by leonidas
<<in terms of reality warping feats, Watcher = Proteus. Are you saying I'm wrong?>>

in terms of reality warping feats as shown in book, you are correct. at the saem time proteus could not alter reality in anyway that would bother a watcher. at the least (until i find some visual evidence of a watcher altering reality) a watcher and other cosmics have some undefined ability to negate/be unaffected by reality altering powers.


If it's undefined, and they've never shown the ability to resist reality-altering powers....how do you know they have that ability?



Just so that I'm clear - you're basing this ONLY off of the fact that Cube Beings, who are only planetary scale reality warpers, say that Celestials are more powerful, right?



Given the Cube beings fights, it doesn't appear that they even apply reality warping technique to each other. The only named attack is some kind of sub-particle disruptor something or other. It could be that they are unable to apply reality warping directly to beings. Are there any instances of them successfully deleting ANYBODY from reality? Or any direct reality manipulation feats that directly affect a living being?



And what's your gut tell you is most likely?

Besides, who says she needs to warp THEM out of reality. Like I said - summon a Sue attack and blow them all up.



At some point, that actually could have worked. But she's since shown an irrepressable mind.

Creshosk
Originally posted by demigawd
Wow...that's quite a twist on facts. She won ONLY because he exausted his energy supplies, as he proceeded to explain to her, which of course freaked her out and caused her to flee. It was basically a stalemate until that point. Had their fight comtinued without her freaking out . . . ?

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Creshosk
Had their fight comtinued without her freaking out . . . ?

Creshosk the misdirectionist laughing watch this thread move away from the salient points demi had produced into a World of -

Where did it say that
So you saying
What I think you mean is etc laughing out loud

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Creshosk
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Creshosk the misdirectionist laughing watch this thread move away from the salient points demi had produced into a World of -

Where did it say that
So you saying
What I think you mean is etc laughing out loud

roll eyes (sarcastic) This coming from the person who never fights his own battles and . . actually never even debates in the comic forums? roll eyes (sarcastic)

leonidas
<<Part of the reason I back Scarlet Witch over the Cellestials in this thread (and over Phoenix in the other thread) is because for all their powers and feats, neither are above choice or probability, which Scarlet Witch controls.>>

and if she doesn't GET the chance to apply her powers because they psionically disable her or make her forget she even HAS powers? at best you can argue it comes down to who gets first attack unless it's been proven somewhere that wanda is immune in someway to psychic attacks. celestials have ripped info out of sue's mind and ko'd thor almost instantaneously. they also places thoughts in the minds of the skyfathers when they showed them their realms burning and destroyed.

demi has yet to say why they couldn't do the same to wanda, ill: maybe YOU can clarify?

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Creshosk
This coming from the person who never fights his own battles and . . actually never even debates in the comic forums? roll eyes (sarcastic)


You say that like its a bad thing smile

Creshosk
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
You say that like its a bad thing smile If you're going to be attacking someone on their style, you should probably expect the same in return.

So you admit to it then? confused

demigawd
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Creshosk the misdirectionist laughing watch this thread move away from the salient points demi had produced into a World of -

Where did it say that
So you saying
What I think you mean is etc laughing out loud

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Not at all.

Behold:

Originally posted by Creshosk
Had their fight comtinued without her freaking out . . . ?

She would have beaten him. Simple enough.

Creshosk
Originally posted by demigawd
Not at all.

Behold:



She would have beaten him. Simple enough. Okay

demigawd
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Part of the reason I back Scarlet Witch over the Cellestials in this thread (and over Phoenix in the other thread) is because for all their powers and feats, neither are above choice or probability, which Scarlet Witch controls.>>

and if she doesn't GET the chance to apply her powers because they psionically disable her or make her forget she even HAS powers? at best you can argue it comes down to who gets first attack unless it's been proven somewhere that wanda is immune in someway to psychic attacks. celestials have ripped info out of sue's mind and ko'd thor almost instantaneously. they also places thoughts in the minds of the skyfathers when they showed them their realms burning and destroyed.

demi has yet to say why they couldn't do the same to wanda, ill: maybe YOU can clarify?

I already addressed this point....she's shown the ability to grow beyond psychic circuitbreakers and controls placed inside of her, which is why it was effective at first, but Xavier lost complete control...AND couldn't do it again. She actually broke through the circuitbreakers FASTER than Jean did when she was Phoenix. More food for thought.

So to answer your question - it's actually a conceivable way to win. But looking at the overall options, and Wanda's evolutionary abilities, I'd say she has more options for victory than they do.

leonidas
<<demi has yet to say why they couldn't do the same to wanda, ill: maybe YOU can clarify?>>

hmm, seems demi HAS replied. curious: how has she shown this irrepressible mind?

<<Just so that I'm clear - you're basing this ONLY off of the fact that Cube Beings, who are only planetary scale reality warpers, say that Celestials are more powerful, right?>>

yes. again, it seems logical enough to assume. i mean, if any old reality warper could walk up and expunge them, well . . . they wouldn't be considered among the most powerful of all beings, would they?

<<Given the Cube beings fights, it doesn't appear that they even apply reality warping technique to each other. The only named attack is some kind of sub-particle disruptor something or other. It could be that they are unable to apply reality warping directly to beings. Are there any instances of them successfully deleting ANYBODY from reality? Or any direct reality manipulation feats that directly affect a living being?>>

you're getting rather nit-picky with this, demi. they can alter reality but NOT affect living beings? hmmm . . . if you REALLY want to get nit-picky, i suppose i could accuse wanda of not ACTUALLY being able to alter reality, but rather she can reset parts of it by variously affecting the probably of things happening and not happening. could wanda say, change the silver surfer into a daisy? i would doubt it (but again i'm open to changing my mind because it bears repeating, i've not read hom and so don't fully know her abilities) because the chance of ss suddenly becoming a daisy is zero and hence impossible.

<<And what's your gut tell you is most likely?
Besides, who says she needs to warp THEM out of reality. Like I said - summon a Sue attack and blow them all up.>>

my gut says if she bumped into them in hom she probably could affect them because it would be a 'dramatic demonstration of power'. i'm not sure i'd buy it though and i would actually HOPE her power was UNABLE to affect them because i really hate all these absurd power-ups! big grin

always an interesting discussion when you're around, demi. wink

leonidas
damn, stop typing at the same time as me! mad

big grin

and i might buy she is immune to mental attacks (marvel really does cover all its bases when it comes to power-ups, doesn't it? :rolleyessmile but it's still possible she might be affected by a being as powerful as a celestial.

as it stands, i don't know WHO the hell would win! edge to wanda, maybe. blink

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Creshosk
If you're going to be attacking someone on their style, you should probably expect the same in return.

So you admit to it then? confused

Of course not - I never admit anything smile M-O-O-N spells moon Cresh smile

Creshosk
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Of course not - I never admit anything smile M-O-O-N spells moon Cresh smile big grin

Stephen king is great, and I liked the movie adaptation too. Well . . the devils bride was always kinda weird to me. blink

I love how he cameos in the movies though.

Sir Whirlysplat
Originally posted by Creshosk
big grin

Stephen king is great, and I liked the movie adaptation too. Well . . the devils bride was always kinda weird to me. blink

I love how he cameos in the movies though.
I met him at a book signing 20 years ago, he signed a copy of the Talisman for me smile

All things serve the beam smile

demigawd
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, seems demi HAS replied. curious: how has she shown this irrepressible mind?


I think I mentioned this while you were typing, so you probably saw it already.



Reality warping is like energy projection - it's a category of power, and they're not all the same, or even similar. Proteus I is a reality warper, who was limited to line of sight. His warping consisted mainly of a type of matter twisting, as opposed to changing the nature of reality itself. Jim Jaspers, Jamie Braddock, Cube Beings and Wanda all have differents reality warping power, but they all go about it differently. Braddock sees reality as a series of strings that he can pull to change. Wanda generates chaos energy that allows her to make the impossible certain. Their powers actually have nothing in common with each other, aside from the net result - which is reality being different than what it was before. And with that, comes different limitations, different scales, and different levels of effectiveness.

So just because one being has shown reality warping powers doesn't mean that its success or failure can be applied any more to any other reality warping powers. That would be like equating Galactus' eye blast with Cyclops', just because they're energy and come out their eyes. You have to go by scale - Galactus has destroyed planets with his eyeblasts. Cyclops has destroyed mountains. Therefore more authority and power must be accorded to G's eyeblasts. Likewise, Wanda changed the universe - past and present. it's on a scale beyond what any other reality warper has done. If Proteus is the Jubilee of reality warping (COME AND GIT IT, CRESH!), then Kubik is Cyclops and Wanda is Galactus. Do you agree?




Actually, I'd agree with that description almost 100%. Not sure if that's what you intended, though, haha.



Chaos energy makes all things possible. Can SS become a daisy suddenly? Actually any number of matter transmuters could turn him into a daisy....making it possible for SS to turn into a daisy...making it possible for SW to make him a daisy.

Now...can Scarlet Witch make 2+2=5? Hmmmm.....



Likewise! And less essay intense, too! smile

Creshosk
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I met him at a book signing 20 years ago, he signed a copy of the Talisman for me smile

All things serve the beam smile You lucky . . . big grin

Originally posted by demigawd
If Proteus is the Jubilee of reality warping (COME AND GIT IT, CRESH!), laughing out loud

Originally posted by demigawd
Chaos energy makes all things possible. Can SS become a daisy suddenly? Actually any number of matter transmuters could turn him into a daisy....making it possible for SS to turn into a daisy...making it possible for SW to make him a daisy.

Now...can Scarlet Witch make 2+2=5? Hmmmm..... Now that is an entirely different discussion. smile

leonidas
<<Now...can Scarlet Witch make 2+2=5? Hmmmm.....>>

actually a much better example than my own. however, it's impossible for ss to become a daisy spontaneously. by your exaplanation she would need to have a transmuter change him to have him change. neither here nor there. you got my point as shown by your example. and i would say no, she couldn't make 2+2=5 because it IS impossible. for her powers to work it seems there must be a CHANCE (ie non-zero probability) of something happening.

<<Actually, I'd agree with that description almost 100%. Not sure if that's what you intended, though, haha.>>

actually, i DID intend for you to agree. just not sure what i wanted to prove bby the point! heheh

last point and this is all i've got in the proverbial celestial arsenal:

in this issue of ff#340 read what the dreaming celestial did WHILE ASLEEP. sounds like alter reality to me . . .

leonidas
. . .

so, what do you think? pretty DAMN powerful to be able to dream galactus 'back to life' and alter his hunger, no?

illadelph12
I don't think comparing Wanda to a Cube being is a good idea. Their powers work in completely different ways.

Cube beings reshape reality along the material lines of physics by re-arranging matter (molecules, atomic structure of matter, redefining energy signatures, etc.). Silver Surfer can effect reality the same way, just not quite to the same scope.

Wanda, on the other hand, effects reality by making quantum variants into actual outcomes. She doesn't rely on material precursors like matter and reshaping thereof, she relies solely on the underlying concepts of causality; possibility and probabilities; which are near limitless in scope. At any given point in time there are literally countless variant courses of action and reaction, and Wanda can consciously pick and choose which variant happens on a local or universal scale that would serve her purposes.

Saying that Cellestials are beyond the abilities of a Cube Being is simply saying that they can't have their material substance re-arranged in the manner of which a Cube Being does it. Cellestials themselves are high end matter manipulators and geneticists.

It does not make them immune to causality, however, just matter manipulation.

These are not Wanda's abilities.

There are very few things that are above the concepts of causality, possibility, and probability.

Basically, there are few absolutes.

Simply existing puts you under the lines of possibility, which makes you a quantum variable.

Wanda, through her own will, can make any possible outcome become reality. It's not a matter of rearranging molecules, it's a matter of altering the course of reality on a quantum level.

demigawd
Originally posted by leonidas
actually a much better example than my own. however, it's impossible for ss to become a daisy spontaneously. by your exaplanation she would need to have a transmuter change him to have him change. neither here nor there. you got my point as shown by your example. and i would say no, she couldn't make 2+2=5 because it IS impossible. for her powers to work it seems there must be a CHANCE (ie non-zero probability) of something happening.


2+2=5 IS impossible. I'd say she couldn't do it.

Silver Surfer spontaneously turning into a daisy is about as unlikely as Apocalypse being brought back to life, or her having twins, or creating Layla out of thin air, all of which she did, so...



It was explained later as a psionic alteration of a weakened Galactus' physiology, who was prone to it because he was weakened. It wasn't a shift in reality.

leonidas
<<It was explained later as a psionic alteration of a weakened Galactus' physiology, who was prone to it because he was weakened. It wasn't a shift in reality.>>

really? where was this explained?

<<Simply existing puts you under the lines of possibility, which makes you a quantum variable.

Wanda, through her own will, can make any possible outcome become reality. It's not a matter of rearranging molecules, it's a matter of altering the course of reality on a quantum level.>>

that's all true, ill, but she has ALWAYS been her power. the thing that has changed is the SCOPE of her power. and that is what is in question here. has her power grown to the level where she can affect a celestial? maybe. based on all i've read here, i'd even have to say . . . probably. big grin

demigawd
Originally posted by leonidas
<<It was explained later as a psionic alteration of a weakened Galactus' physiology, who was prone to it because he was weakened. It wasn't a shift in reality.>>

really? where was this explained?


An issue of Silver Surfer some years later had Galactus recounting the event, and talking about how while he was recovering these ideas were planted in his head and he awoke with the need to feed on everything. He made it clear that it was more of a psyiological change than some kind of reality warping.




Probably works for me. big grin

So it sounds like most of the major parties here agree that SW would (probably) win. Even GS agrees she could win against one Celestial, which was the revised stipulation anyway, though I personally believe that if you can summon the energies to beat one Celestial, it's not all that much more difficult to beat them all. So my guess is that the rest of this thread is going to be taken up discussing Phoenix crap. What fun.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>