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Okay, with today's issue of The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe, let's see if we can put these "Phoenix" questions to bed once and for all (or at least till the next re-con).

To make things easier, I will post this in two parts. This first post will list powers/abilities. The second will list the history.

Superhuman Powers:
The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life, dirived from the psyches of all living beings. In it's natural state, this life-cycle is enough to sustain the Force. However, in order to manifest itself on the physical plane, the Force must tap into the near limitless source of energy provided by life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existance. The Force can wield this energy to project beams of immense concussive force, as well as transmigrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole, then it reforms itself upon reaching it's destination, like the Phoenix of Earth legend.

While possessing a human host, the Force is able to augment any super-powers they have to vastly higher levels.

POWER GRID
Intelligence = 7 (Omniscient)

Strength = 7 (Incalculable: In excess of 100 tons)

Speed = 7 (Warp Speed: Transcending light speed)

Durability = 7 (Virtually indestructible)

Energy Projection = 7 (Vitually unlimited command of all forms of energy)

Fighting Skills = 1 (Poor)


Now, for the history...

REAL NAME: Inapplicable

KNOWN ALIASES: Chaos-Bringer, Starchilde, Phalkon, formerly Dark Phoenix, Black Queen, Phoenix, Jean Grey

IDENTITY: Secret

OCCUPATION: Celestial elemental; (while possessing a host) adventurer

CITIZENSHIP: Inapplicable

PLACE OF BIRTH: Big Bang

KNOWN RELATIVES: Inapplicable

GROUP AFFILIATION: None; (as Phoenix) formerly X-Men, New Your Hellfire Club (Inner Circle)

EDUCATION: Inapplicable

FIRST APPEARANCE: X-Men #101 (1976)

(Okay, now for the history.)

If this is right......................




God Loves Whirly

Can you say Kabbalah

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Can you say Kabbalah I know you can:

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix

Never put much stock in these handbooks.

You know Namor only going 40 mph top speed.
Doc oc's tenticles only moving at 60 mph

etc . . . etc . . .

What does it say about Xorn and Mags?

Originally posted by The Ion
What does it say about Xorn and Mags? I'll put it in the "The Magneto/Xorn/Xorneto Debacle..." thread in a few.

BTW, this thread was for you Whirly! You never gave up the fight.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
BTW, this thread was for you Whirly! You never gave up the fight.

thank you BlaqChaos and respect to you my friend

and Cresh because I said Morrisin was trying to link Phoenix to Kabbalistic rituals it doesn't mean he suceeded as I have always said the attempt was incredibly flawed. The handbook is Cannon by the way.

Keep the faith



Lots of you did

The entry makes perfect sense....far more sense than GS made. And as you can see, the PF has shown a history of being confused, tricked, injured and having to flee. It reconciles everything in the Phoenix history nicely....and it doesn't have to ignore a bunch of stuff, like GS's theories have to do in order to work.

Nobody agrees with GS anyway, but I'd like to think that THIS is the final nail in the coffin of anybody who was even on the fence, like Xplosive.

I imagine GS will come in and immediately dismiss it because it's a Handbook, but the only things that are ever questionable about the handbooks are the power ratings, which are subjective and can vary by writer. When Marvel explains HISTORY in these books, it's to be taken as canon. It's the OFFICIAL history of a character. So when Marvel says that the PF is a separate entity that Jean is just able to channel....it is. And there's nothing in anybody's run that challenges that. Not Morrison, not X-men Forever, not Phoenix Endsong. It all fits in to Marvel's explanation.

Originally posted by demigawd
The entry makes perfect sense....far more sense than GS made. And as you can see, the PF has shown a history of being confused, tricked, injured and having to flee. It reconciles everything in the Phoenix history nicely....and it doesn't have to ignore a bunch of stuff, like GS's theories have to do in order to work.

Nobody agrees with GS anyway, but I'd like to think that THIS is the final nail in the coffin of anybody who was even on the fence, like Xplosive.

I imagine GS will come in and immediately dismiss it because it's a Handbook, but the only things that are ever questionable about the handbooks are the power ratings, which are subjective and can vary by writer. When Marvel explains HISTORY in these books, it's to be taken as canon. It's the OFFICIAL history of a character. So when Marvel says that the PF is a separate entity that Jean is just able to channel....it is. And there's nothing in anybody's run that challenges that. Not Morrison, not X-men Forever, not Phoenix Endsong. It all fits in to Marvel's explanation.

and not god with a small g or large G

What are the strength levels of the following ?

Cable
Colossus
Xorn
Captain Britain
Apocalypse ?

Originally posted by demigawd
The entry makes perfect sense....far more sense than GS made. And as you can see, the PF has shown a history of being confused, tricked, injured and having to flee. It reconciles everything in the Phoenix history nicely....and it doesn't have to ignore a bunch of stuff, like GS's theories have to do in order to work.

Nobody agrees with GS anyway, but I'd like to think that THIS is the final nail in the coffin of anybody who was even on the fence, like Xplosive.

I imagine GS will come in and immediately dismiss it because it's a Handbook, but the only things that are ever questionable about the handbooks are the power ratings, which are subjective and can vary by writer. When Marvel explains HISTORY in these books, it's to be taken as canon. It's the OFFICIAL history of a character. So when Marvel says that the PF is a separate entity that Jean is just able to channel....it is. And there's nothing in anybody's run that challenges that. Not Morrison, not X-men Forever, not Phoenix Endsong. It all fits in to Marvel's explanation.

Guys i dont know .... I don't think this confirms anything

Originally posted by Fishy 500
Guys i dont know .... I don't think this confirms anything

Why do you say that?

Originally posted by demigawd
Why do you say that?


Its so ambiguous !!!!!!!! I'll admit I'm not as much on an expert as you cresh, whirly leon, or xplosive but this line is causing me a lot of grief ...

"The Force realized that Jean was one of its missing pieces, its prime host, and so it merged with her fully."

i read it as jean and the pf were once seperate entities but now the merged into one being.

What's vague about that? The Phoenix Force is the power of creation, and yet it didn't understand what it created. It needed a human form, so it picked Jean. Jean was really its first avatar (Feron doesn't count), so it has a special relationship with her...its prime host. It can't really interact with the universe unless it has its host:

She's essential to it being more than an energy source, so it bonded with her so it could act and went on its way to healing in the White Hot Room.

It shows that its a limited being, with a limited understanding of the minute nature of the universe, despite its immense power. It shows it capable of pain, capable of being destroyed, capable of confusion and manipulation. And it certainly puts it a level or two below what GS would have us believe.

Does that make more sense?

Originally posted by demigawd
What's vague about that? The Phoenix Force is the power of creation, and yet it didn't understand what it created. It needed a human form, so it picked Jean. Jean was really its first avatar (Feron doesn't count), so it has a special relationship with her...its prime host. It can't really interact with the universe unless it has its host:

She's essential to it being more than an energy source, so it bonded with her so it could act and went on its way to healing in the White Hot Room.

It shows that its a limited being, with a limited understanding of the minute nature of the universe, despite its immense power. It shows it capable of pain, capable of being destroyed, capable of confusion and manipulation. And it certainly puts it a level or two below what GS would have us believe.

Does that make more sense?

Indeed a combo of you and whirly. 'The Hands' return will be ever more so sweet !

The Hands? Is that what you call GS? lol

(Yahman whispers ) The 'helping hand' !!!!! scared

Originally posted by Fishy 500
What are the strength levels of the following ?

Cable
Colossus
Xorn
Captain Britain
Apocalypse ?

I left the book at home and I'm at work now. I will bring it tomorrow.

BTW, I do remember that Apocalypse's strength was level 7 and his intelligence was level 6.

you should just post everyone's bio in the new handbook...i'd love to see it!

(yes...that's alot of work.)

i actually found the bit about the pf's visit to the ultraverse interesting. i'd thought (for some reason) that NOT to be canon. the force itself didn't seem all-powerful in that particular arc, to be sure . . .

Now. . in Marvel 616 is the main universe that we follow. and anything outside of 616 that doesn't intersect 616 isn't cannon correct?

Then these multiversal entities that can exist outside of 616 . . . would not be cannon . . . Then would that mean that there are NO multiversal entities as leaving 616 makes you not cannon?

Or is there an error with my logic here that I've left for you to find?

jggg - life force of the unborn

God - No




Tust

Whirly

Faith

Rock

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
jggg - life force of the unborn

God - No




Tust

Whirly

Faith

Rock



Bonjour my friend !

Originally posted by Fishy 500
Bonjour my friend !

Bonjour my friend - I am going to be minimalist in posting for a while.

Kind of anti essayist.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Bonjour my friend - I am going to be minimalist in posting for a while.

Kind of anti essayist.



One

Originally posted by Fishy 500
One

Liners you

Originally posted by Fishy 500
Liners you

mean ?

Absolutely

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Absolutely

He's breaking !

"Not properly. Yahman believes ive contradicted myself and i need to address that. Plus i need to show you why they are indeed one.

You dont seem to make a distinction between Phoenix and the Phoenix Force/Consciousness. So when i say Jean is Phoenix your ideas behind it lead to you misinterpreting my posts, which leads to accusations of contradictions and so on. Then Yahman jumps in and i end up confusing myself more than anything because im not entirely sure what his perspective on the comic is or even if he's read it.

Basically i need to take a break and come back to settle this. Right now im all over the place."

Originally posted by Fishy 500
He's breaking !

perhaps

Originally posted by Fishy 500
What are the strength levels of the following ?

Cable
Colossus
Xorn
Captain Britain
Apocalypse ? Here is Colossus' power grid.

He has a 3 in speed and a 4 in fighting skills. Not bad.

<<and anything outside of 616 that doesn't intersect 616 isn't cannon correct?>>

i'd have chosen interacts rather than intersects. in either case, both are broad terms. what ifs are not canon because they take place solely outside 616 --no interaction. avengers/jla (thor buster away!! ) is canon because it interacts with 616. but so do other x-overs and they are NOT canon. not sure there is really a set rule. basically if the story (wherever it took place) is followed up in the 616 THEN i'd say it was canon.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<and anything outside of 616 that doesn't intersect 616 isn't cannon correct?>>

i'd have chosen interacts rather than intersects. in either case, both are broad terms. what ifs are not canon because they take place solely outside 616 --no interaction. avengers/jla (thor buster away!! ) is canon because it interacts with 616. but so do other x-overs and they are NOT canon. not sure there is really a set rule. basically if the story (wherever it took place) is followed up in the 616 THEN i'd say it was canon. I meant interacts, but I typed intersects . . I'm not sure why. . . So multiversal entities feats outside of 616 would not be cannon.

All they're really doing is intereacting with non-616 beings. is "non-canon" cover all the characters involved or just those that are not multiversal entities?

<<I meant interacts, but I typed intersects . . I'm not sure why. . . So multiversal entities feats outside of 616 would not be cannon.>>

depends i think. if they are discussed or brought up by someone IN the 616 (maybe strange senses them or something) then i'd say they become canon.

<<All they're really doing is intereacting with non-616 beings. is "non-canon" cover all the characters involved or just those that are not multiversal entities?>>

you've lost me with this. who is 'they'? are you speaking of someone/something specific . . .

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule for what is and what isn't canon. From my experience on the boards, it seems the generally accepted rule is that alternate realities and other universes where there are alternate versions of characters are not canon. However, for multiversal beings such as LT and Phoenix, ALL appearances are canon...even What Ifs.

I don't really agree with that, because What If's are really hacked plots sometimes with ridiculously high and low feats for even abstracts - like the time LT was unable to defeat Korvac and had to seal off the entire universe to put him away. And there are several What If's featuring really low showings for Phoenix...although it's easy enough to blame it on the host, rather than a problem with the Force itself.

Either way, that seems to be the generally accepted way of handling alternate realities and such. take it for what it's worth...

I'm sorry.

I apoligise to everyone. I was suppose to post the stats for everyone else today, but I have aq bad cold right now and when I got home I took some NyQuil and passed out (forgetting about the handbook). But, I will bring it next time.

bump

ord is prettybad ass too...6 in fighting ability, 6 in durability, 4 or 5 in strength...i dont like the way he looks though....captain britain and colossus both have a 6 in strength and durabilty. of course we all know that colossus and capt.britain can lift more than 100 tons