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Flash vs Superman (today) we all know both have increase there powers from say 10 yrs ago

Discuss

Depends.

Sometimes in comics, Supes is depicted as able to see Flash and nearly move as fast.

Sometimes he's shown to not be anywhere near as fast.

Flash could do some damage.

But I think Supes still takes it due to his multiple varied powers.

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
Depends.

Sometimes in comics, Supes is depicted as able to see Flash and nearly move as fast.

Sometimes he's shown to not be anywhere near as fast.

Flash could do some damage.

But I think Supes still takes it due to his multiple varied powers. This is as close as it gets to an answer.

I have an argument Flash steal Superman Speed making him slower than a Human

Then beats him to death

Ok guys counter that.

Originally posted by kgkg
I have an argument Flash steal Superman Speed making him slower than a Human

Then beats him to death

Ok guys counter that. Superman collapses his lungs by breathing in as the fights starts, like he did to the guy in Manchester Black's team The Elite. In issue 775.

Your turn.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman collapses his lungs by breathing in as the fights starts, like he did to the guy in Manchester Black's team The Elite. In issue 775.

Your turn.
by the time Superman collapses his lungs Superman whould be have his energy jacked.

Your turn.

Originally posted by kgkg
by the time Superman collapses his lungs Superman whould be have his energy jacked.

Your turn.

Not quite, Superman while unable to time travel, can bend and slow time he moves so fast just like Wally. For all intensive purposes, he's as fast as Flash is. Many many times light speed. Even in combat.

Superman even mentions this while he was fighting the JLA under Max Lord's power that Flash is indeed not fast enought to defeat him.

Characters say a lot of shit.

Originally posted by The Ion
Characters say a lot of shit.

Actually, it was a thought bubble.

He kinda proved it though. . ?
You'll notice, Flash didn't stop Superman.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not quite, Superman while unable to time travel, can bend and slow time he moves so fast just like Wally. For all intensive purposes, he's as fast as Flash is. Many many times light speed. Even in combat.

Superman even mentions this while he was fighting the JLA under Max Lord's power that Flash is indeed not fast enought to defeat him.

I believe it was "Flash is fast enough to see it coming, but not fast enough to do anything about it" or something similar.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I believe it was "Flash is fast enough to see it coming, but not fast enough to do anything about it" or something similar. Yep, that's almost it word for word.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not quite, Superman while unable to time travel, can bend and slow time he moves so fast just like Wally. For all intensive purposes, he's as fast as Flash is. Many many times light speed. Even in combat.

Superman even mentions this while he was fighting the JLA under Max Lord's power that Flash is indeed not fast enought to defeat him.
False

Superman is no where near Flash’s speed. ( at least on earth)

Superman is close to Flash speed (at normal levels) when Flash absorb kinetic energy Superman will look like he is frozen in time.

and you are not really countering anything here.

here is what am saying

Fight start Flash instantly absorbs Superman Speed , make him Frozen.

He caught everyone there off guard considering they thought he had his head on straight and was docile. He beat the entire league save for Wonder Woman and Batman. He couldn't pull that off under normal circumstances.

I know Superman says a lot about his speed compared to Wally but it's still just hearsay. It's like the time Kyle claimed the entire JLA was weaksauce compared to him.

Originally posted by kgkg
False

Superman is no where near Flash’s speed. ( at least on earth)

Superman is close to Flash speed (at normal levels) when Flash absorb kinetic energy Superman will look like he is frozen in time.

and you are not really countering anything here.

here is what am saying

Fight start Flash instantly absorbs Superman Speed , make him Frozen. And what I'm saying, is that in combat, Superman is faster than Flash. And it's been proven time and time again. The example I gave is RECENT, where's your example?

Flash needs to touch Superman to win in your scenario.
Superman can win the fight before that's done.

Originally posted by Juntai
And what I'm saying, is that in combat, Superman is faster than Flash. And it's been proven time and time again. The example I gave is RECENT, where's your example?

Flash needs to touch Superman to win in your scenario.
Superman can win the fight before that's done.
Touch you say?

Flash wins

Originally posted by The Ion
He caught everyone there off guard considering they thought he had his head on straight and was docile. He beat the entire league save for Wonder Woman and Batman. He couldn't pull that off under normal circumstances.

I know Superman says a lot about his speed compared to Wally but it's still just hearsay. It's like the time Kyle claimed the entire JLA was weaksauce compared to him. He took out Martian Manhunter, and Wally sprung into Action to fight him, then he handled it.. How wasn't Wally ready?

And, he did beat Batman too. Chokeslammed into the console and put him in critical condition remember?

Originally posted by kgkg
Touch you say?

Flash wins What comic is it from? That doesn't look like normal Flash's costume.

I know he beat Bats. The argument isn't whether he could beat Bats since he obviously can. The argument was that Superman could beat the majority of the JLA on his own to which I would say "Hell, no!" He didn't even beat J'onn straight up. He tossed him in a teleporter.

Does look mean as hell though, doesn't he lol?

Originally posted by Juntai
What comic is it from? That doesn't look like normal Flash's costume.
It’s from Flash comics


He doesn’t look like normal Flash? Say what

In the Speed Kills storlyine, Superman had to let Flash beat him in their race.

Time and time again Superman has proven to be faster, but without time travel capabilities like Wally.

Originally posted by kgkg
It’s from Flash comics


He doesn’t look like normal Flash? Say what What ISSUE is it from?
Look at his legs man.

Originally posted by The Ion
I know he beat Bats. The argument isn't whether he could beat Bats since he obviously can. The argument was that Superman could beat the majority of the JLA on his own to which I would say "Hell, no!" He didn't even beat J'onn straight up. He tossed him in a teleporter. By an inch or a mile, right?
Besides, heat vision should drop Jonn either way, an Omac held him under a flame coming from his arm.

I don't think Normal Flash can do what was done in that pic, eg; shoot lightning out of his eyes and absorb kinetic energy. And the yellow thing wrapped around his leg leads me to think it's not regular Flash.

In the Flash/Wonder Woman comic right before the Crisis for example where Zoom helped get Cheeta super-speed powers, he had to wait for her to touch him to take her speed.

Originally posted by Juntai
What ISSUE is it from?
Look at his legs man.
shit man i gotta look hold up

Originally posted by kgkg
shit man i gotta look hold up Eh, I'm not really that worried about it. I'm just saying, he's got a contraption of some sort on his legs, that doesn't look like normal Flash.

But as seen time and time again in comics, Superman is equal to Wally , but he's still leagues ahead in combat and reaction time.


So I say.
Go back to that first post I cosigned and read it again.

Originally posted by Juntai
In the Speed Kills storlyine, Superman had to let Flash beat him in their race.

Time and time again Superman has proven to be faster, but without time travel capabilities like Wally.
that's 1989-90 comic

flash was mach speeds back then.

Flash in a much recent race says he can easily steal Supes kinetic energy.

and that was a "Slow" flash

Originally posted by kgkg
that's 1989-90 comic

flash was mach speeds back then.

Flash in a much recent race says he can easily steal Supes kinetic energy.

and that was a "Slow" flash Superman's energy can be stolen, that's not what's in consideration. Even Jay Garrick took Superman's speed, but he had to touch him to do it. Wally west had to touch Cheeta to take her speed, and that's just a couple months ago.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman's energy can be stolen, that's not what's in consideration. Even Jay Garrick took Superman's speed, but he had to touch him to do it. Wally west had to touch Cheeta to take her speed, and that's just a couple months ago.
touch????

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2864/jla075455rb.jpg

Originally posted by The Ion
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2864/jla075455rb.jpg But he's also touching the planet he's on and it took time and concentration to do so.

Originally posted by kgkg
touch???? Yeah, notice him touching him?

Superman is just as fast as Wally is, even in the moment when Wally was outracing his heat vision you'll notice Superman kept gaining on him. And in their race i mentioned earlier, Superman had LET Wally win.


This battle can go either way.
I'm just giving it to Superman, because he has many of Wally's powers, and then a whole entire host of other ones to boot.

You've yet to show me anything conclusive that gives Wally the easy win.

Matter of fact, I'd even give Wally 4/10, nearly half..
But Superman gets the majority to me.

Superman used to be near Flash speed not anymore

lol Flash is augmented by things beyond physics even in the world of comics supposedly Superman has some real world physics to overcome. Flash 4 the win

Originally posted by kgkg
Superman used to be near Flash speed not anymore Recent events, like in Sacrifice, prove differently. Where it was narrated that Flash wasn't fast enough to stop Superman.

Also, Wonder Woman chased and saved Jessie Quick from disolving into the speed force. Superman is faster than she is.

Originally posted by Juntai
Recent events, like in Sacrifice, prove differently. Where it was narrated that Flash wasn't fast enough to stop Superman.

Also, Wonder Woman chased and saved Jessie Quick from disolving into the speed force. Superman is faster than she is.
What issue are you referring to?

Originally posted by kgkg
What issue are you referring to? Which comic?

Originally posted by Juntai
Which comic? Recent events, like in Sacrifice..........

what issue

Originally posted by kgkg
Recent events, like in Sacrifice..........

what issue Why going to go download it?
Someone already gave the quote earlier, but hold on I'll ruffle through some comics and grab the number for you.

Superman 642.
Superman is even standing still, watching Wally, and waiting.

"I hesistate, just long enough to let them each finish their moves. I hear Dinah inhaling, readying a scream. Carter comes high, preparing bruce force. Wall crosses low, moving to flank. When they're all where I want them. I move. Wally is fast enough to see it coming-- but not fast enough to do anything about it. "


By the time Superman leaves, Wally is the only one standing however, but I'm guessing he got BACK up after being dropped once already. Since he was right in Superman's face for a few panels, then not there and everyone else that was standing is scattered across the ground, but you can't see all of them. In one possible scenario there, Wally got wholloped, in another, he just wasn't fast enough to catch him. Either one kinda proves it right?


Not to mention he was punching through GL constructs while this was going on.

One hit from heat vision and wally goes down...

Originally posted by Juntai
Why going to go download it?
Someone already gave the quote earlier, but hold on I'll ruffle through some comics and grab the number for you.
I don't remember anything like that.

But you keep saying recent comics.

In recent comics superman couldn't catch bullets.

Flash was trying to absorb Zooms energy he didn't touch him either.

Flash doesn't need to touch to absorb energy.

For superman to win he would need to be faster than flash because Flash only need to get close.

Originally posted by kgkg
I don't remember anything like that.

But you keep saying recent comics.

In recent comics superman couldn't catch bullets.

Flash was trying to absorb Zooms energy he didn't touch him either.

Flash doesn't need to touch to absorb energy.

For superman to win he would need to be faster than flash because Flash only need to get close. And Superman doesn't even need to be close. He can win from any distance with any number of powers. He has far more at his disposal, even many of Wally's abilities are also in Superman's repitoir.
I still say Superman 6/10.
Wally will get a few, Superman is still the far more dangerous combatant.

Originally posted by grey fox
One hit from heat vision and wally goes down... Like this.. . ?

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman 642.
Superman is even standing still, watching Wally, and waiting.

"I hesistate, just long enough to let them each finish their moves. I hear Dinah inhaling, readying a scream. Carter comes high, preparing bruce force. Wall crosses low, moving to flank. When they're all where I want them. I move. Wally is fast enough to see it coming-- but not fast enough to do anything about it. "


By the time Superman leaves, Wally is the only one standing however, but I'm guessing he got BACK up after being dropped once already. Since he was right in Superman's face for a few panels, then not there and everyone else that was standing is scattered across the ground, but you can't see all of them. In one possible scenario there, Wally got wholloped, in another, he just wasn't fast enough to catch him. Either one kinda proves it right?


Not to mention he was punching through GL constructs while this was going on.
you got scans??????

"Wally is fast enough to see it but not fast enough to do anything about it"

Was he trying to go after Superman.........

Originally posted by kgkg
you got scans??????

"Wally is fast enough to see it but not fast enough to do anything about it"

Was he trying to go after Superman......... No, I don't have a scanner sadly. If you want to see it, I'd recommend picking the 3 Superman issues up, and the couple of WW comics that go with it. They're real good, and lead into the Crisis, as well as the JLA being disolved.

And yes, they were trying to subdue him , and all he was trying to do was get away because he thought they were under Max Lord's power.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, I don't have a scanner sadly. If you want to see it, I'd recommend picking the 3 Superman issues up, and the couple of WW comics that go with it. They're real good, and lead into the Crisis, as well as the JLA being disolved.

And yes, they were trying to subdue him , and all he was trying to do was get away because he thought they were under Max Lord's power.
You can download it?

From where?

I mean if he is in space etc Wally isn't going be doing much............. well I will be at the comic store today so we will se thx tho

i will try bareshare

While not my favorite character I understand that Superman is the smartest/craftiest/strongest/most durable whirlwind of an opponent that anyone's ever faced. And thats' been a lot of the focus of a large portion of Superman's appearances in the last couple of years and especially during this Infinite Crisis.

Originally posted by kgkg
You can download it?

From where?

I mean if he is in space etc Wally isn't going be doing much............. well I will be at the comic store today so we will se thx tho

i will try bareshare Not sure where to look for it for download, but I know it's possible. I recommend purchasing though. Would you like to know the numbers for the Sacrifice issues, or are you just worried about that particular one?

Originally posted by Juntai
No, I don't have a scanner sadly. If you want to see it, I'd recommend picking the 3 Superman issues up, and the couple of WW comics that go with it. They're real good, and lead into the Crisis, as well as the JLA being disolved.

And yes, they were trying to subdue him , and all he was trying to do was get away because he thought they were under Max Lord's power.

I can help with that.

http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/2055/12052005010716pm9yc.th.jpg

http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/447/12052005010809pm7hj.th.jpg

Originally posted by dvampire
I can help with that.

http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/2055/12052005010716pm9yc.th.jpg

http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/447/12052005010809pm7hj.th.jpg that show Superman > Flash ????????

is that the issue Jun?

Originally posted by kgkg
You can download it?

From where?

I mean if he is in space etc Wally isn't going be doing much............. well I will be at the comic store today so we will se thx tho

i will try bareshare

Superman is quit fast on Earth too now, he just holds back because of the damage he'll cause with his speed.

Originally posted by dvampire
Superman is quit fast on Earth too now, he just holds back because of the damage he'll cause with his speed.
ya he said > mach will damage environment and yet.............

Originally posted by kgkg
that show Superman > Flash ????????

is that the issue Jun? Those are pics from the issue, go another couple pages.

dvampire can you post couple pages after that?

Originally posted by kgkg
that show Superman > Flash ????????

is that the issue Jun?

I wasn't trying to show Superman being better than the Flash, the scans was to show that Superman could see Flash in speed that's all.

Here's the rest.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4434/12052005011813pm4dw.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9913/12052005011903pm8lq.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5395/12052005011958pm4oh.jpg

Originally posted by dvampire
I wasn't trying to show Superman being better than the Flash, the scans was to show that Superman could see Flash in speed that's all.

Not only sees, but outmanuevers and outreacts.

Originally posted by kgkg
ya he said > mach will damage environment and yet.............

Again Superman holds back on Earth.

Here's Superman calculating how fast to go on Earths Surface in populated areas. He also plug Lois them ears with cotton while he flew through.

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/9101/0869a916yt.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/704/08222005052719pm2ys.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/8281/08222005052832pm2wo.jpg

Originally posted by Juntai
Not only sees, but outmanuevers and outreacts.

Indeed!

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/...011958pm4oh.jpg

that explains it

Superman is not faster than Wally

Originally posted by dvampire
Indeed! You have a lot of handy scans on hand, ever think of compiling a Superman respect thread?
I think one is long overdo.
And I know a lot of people have lots of good scans of him doing insane things to contribute.

Originally posted by kgkg
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/...011958pm4oh.jpg

that explains it

Superman is not faster than Wally Uhh, nothing there?
Is it more recent than Sacrifice ?

Originally posted by Juntai
Uhh, nothing there?
Is it more recent than Sacrifice ?
no 3rd scan of dvampire

shows why Flash couldn't stop Superman.

look before superman got out he did all that.

still doesn't show Superman > Flash

Originally posted by Juntai
And Superman doesn't even need to be close. He can win from any distance with any number of powers. He has far more at his disposal, even many of Wally's abilities are also in Superman's repitoir.
I still say Superman 6/10.
Wally will get a few, Superman is still the far more dangerous combatant.
I agree with this. It seemed you were saying Flash had no chance at all which would be wrong.

Originally posted by kgkg
no 3rd scan of dvampire

shows why Flash couldn't stop Superman.

look before superman got out he did all that.

still doesn't show Superman > Flash But where was Wally... first he was right on top of Superman, then he started swinging and Wally is nowhere to be found, and the rest of them scattered all over the floor and John flying through space. Where'd he go? Either he got knocked down and out or just plain got outmanuevered and Superman escaped.. which is it?

The third scan shows Superman standing in the hole he created looking down at the Earth knowing Wally is too busy saving lives to even bother with him at this point. Doesn't really prove anything.

Originally posted by The Ion
I agree with this. It seemed you were saying Flash had no chance at all which would be wrong.

Originally posted by Juntai
The third scan shows Superman standing in the hole he created looking down at the Earth knowing Wally is too busy saving lives to even bother with him at this point. Doesn't really prove anything.
Notice before Superman escaped he already got the "mask"

hmmmmmmmm that’s why superman says he is "busy" and won’t have enough time to get to him in time because it takes 2-3 sec etc.


If you notice superman just ripped while Wally did all this.

Nothing shows Superman > Flash in speed

Even your average flash > Superman in term of speed

Flash amped with energy >>>>>> Superman

...............

Originally posted by snoopdogg
............... ya same comic Flash says he can easily absorb Supes energy.

and that's a "Slow" flash no where near the level of Zoom that he can become.

Originally posted by kgkg
ya same comic Flash says he can easily absorb Supes energy.

and that's a "Slow" flash no where near the level of Zoom that he can become. Dude that was like 15 issues ago. How can it be "slow" Flash?

You can also argue Superman is faster also if you want to play that card.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Dude that was like 15 issues ago. How can it be "slow" Flash?

You can also argue Superman is faster also if you want to play that card.
how because it took him 2 sec to do what he did.

He did 10000000 times more in one second in the past

have you heard of Zoom?

Originally posted by kgkg


have you heard of Zoom? Yea he's the guy who barely beat Bizarro in a race in Superman #221.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Yea he's the guy who barely beat Bizarro in a race in Superman #221.
221? you mean Action comics 831 hardly trying

Zoom is beyond time.

Originally posted by kgkg
221? you mean Action comics 831 hardly trying

Zoom is beyond time. Can you prove he wasn't trying? Or just assume it?

Heck Bizarro wasn't trying. He stopped in France to eat some grapes. LOL.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Can you prove this? Or just assume it?

Heck Bizarro wasn't trying. He stopped in France to eat some grapes. LOL.
nope

he is beyond speed.

that's why when the "flash" tried to steal his energy it didn't work. He might be slower now , but the original was.

much faster than any flash

heck no one on earth could see the guy ( including superman)


it took Flash with the speed of all other flash to stop him.

read his first battle with flash it explain it pretty good.

Obviously who's faster changes issue to issue, one is left with the obvious conclusion they're pretty much the same speed. And that's held true for several decades.

Originally posted by Juntai
Obviously who's faster changes issue to issue, one is left with the obvious conclusion they're pretty much the same speed. And that's held true for several decades.
Superman is close to Flash at normal speed.

But we all know Flash can his amp his speed .....................

Originally posted by kgkg
Superman is close to Flash at normal speed.

But we all know Flash can his amp his speed ..................... And so can Superman, remember? His powers amplify as he stresses/needs them to.
Flash CAN do more with speed, but even a numerous amount of his abilities he's done are also abilities Superman has done.

Originally posted by Juntai
And so can Superman, remember? His powers amplify as he stresses/needs them to.
How will he get stresses over nothing???? And that will take tooo long

Flash needs to get close and it does over even your average flash can get close to Superman.

Originally posted by kgkg
How will he get stresses over nothing???? And that will take tooo long

Flash needs to get close and it does over even your average flash can get close to Superman. Eh, that's not what I'm arguing, I've already given my opinion on the outcome. I was just saying, he's every bit as fast, and it's proven COUNTLESS times in comics. Like I said, even Wonder Woman was running fast enough to catch Jessie Quick dissapearing into the speed force barrier which is known to the Flashes as Ultimate Speed, and we all know Superman is faster than her.

Originally posted by Juntai
Eh, that's not what I'm arguing, I've already given my opinion on the outcome. I was just saying, he's every bit as fast, and it's proven COUNTLESS times in comics. Like I said, even Wonder Woman was running fast enough to catch Jessie Quick dissapearing into the speed force barrier which is known to the Flashes as Ultimate Speed, and we all know Superman is faster than her.
Jessie Quick is no where near flash level

So you think Flash can get close Superman at least? Right

That should end the battle

Originally posted by kgkg
Jessie Quick is no where near flash level

So you think Flash can get close Superman at least? Right

That should end the battle And that's why I gave Flash a couple of wins, however, Superman still has more at his disposal. And he's a far more dangerous fighter.

Originally posted by kgkg
Jessie Quick is no where near flash level

So you think Flash can get close Superman at least? Right

That should end the battle Ultimate speed is ultimate speed. There's a point in the speedforce that you CEASE TO BE. That is what Jessie Quick was going, and on that Flash respect page, you'll see a comic of a Flash almost doing the same thing.
Wonder Woman, chased her down, and dragged her back.

Originally posted by Juntai
Ultimate speed is ultimate speed. There's a point in the speedforce that you CEASE TO BE. That is what Jessie Quick was going, and on that Flash respect page, you'll see a comic of a Flash almost doing the same thing.
Wonder Woman, chased her down, and dragged her back.
WW did you see what Zoom did to her?

Again in the battle btz zoom and flash.

Flash was >>>>>>>>>>> his normal self

The way I see superman winning is by heading right into the air and destroying the planet or something to that effect.

There are a lot of PIS in flash comics like every issue there is one.

Heck human hit Flash, Flash been grabbed by WW, etc the list goes on and on.

But that's not what is arguing here all am saying Flash is faster than Superman even at normal level.

Have his amp that by absorbing energy etc.

Superman only option is to head to the sky and try something from there.

Originally posted by kgkg
WW did you see what Zoom did to her?

Again in the battle btz zoom and flash.

Flash was >>>>>>>>>>> his normal self

The way I see superman winning is by heading right into the air and destroying the planet or something to that effect.

There are a lot of PIS in flash comics like every issue there is one.

Heck human hit Flash, Flash been grabbed by WW, etc the list goes on and on.

But that's not what is arguing here all am saying Flash is faster than Superman even at normal level.

Have his amp that by absorbing energy etc.

Superman only option is to head to the sky and try something from there. And luckily that's an option he has. Just like the removing air from Wally's lungs option and rendering him unconscious. Or lobotomizing him with heat vision. He just has so much more at his disposal, plus a lot of Flash's powers, plus he's a quicker thinker. This is why I gave Superman a bit over half the wins.

I see you're unwavering in your faith in Flash.
However, I'm unwavering in that Superman will beat Flash in more confrontations than Flash would beat Superman. And no amount of evidence has proven differently. Especially when the most recent confrontations between the two have Flash unable to handle Superman's speed/strength/cleverness, such as what happened in Sacrifice when that whole team got dismantled.

Originally posted by Juntai
And luckily that's an option he has. Just like the removing air from Wally's lungs option and rendering him unconscious. Or lobotomizing him with heat vision. He just has so much more at his disposal, plus a lot of Flash's powers, plus he's a quicker thinker. This is why I gave Superman a bit over half the wins.

I see you're unwavering in your faith in Flash.
However, I'm unwavering in that Superman will beat Flash in more confrontations than Flash would beat Superman. And no amount of evidence has proven differently. Especially when the most recent confrontations between the two have Flash unable to handle Superman's speed/strength/cleverness, such as what happened in Sacrifice when that whole team got dismantled.
i guess

superman can win

Originally posted by kgkg
i guess

superman can win So you're saying Superman can win, but you still give Flash more of the confrontations in your opinion?
Sounds a lot more reasonable in light of the evidence.

Originally posted by Juntai
So you're saying Superman can win, but you still give Flash more of the confrontations in your opinion?
Sounds a lot more reasonable in light of the evidence.
i always knew superman could win

here is how i see it

Superman tries "heat vision" punching etc = Superman gets his energy jacked

Superman goes in the air ------------ now ever little flash can do here.

First off, Superman is my favorite hero hands down... but I'm well read in Flash and he's a distant 2nd favorite. For these types of matches, Flash is built to win... that's mostly inapplicable to their comic book lives though. (Flash and Supes are very similar characters - both married, conseratively raised, mostly well-adjusted optimists, family ties, mentors, operate with public approval, etc.)

Anyways, this fight is Flash's 8/10... again the context is a bloodlusted fight where they both know it's coming at "Fight!"

Flash is not only faster that Supes, but has faster acceleration, faster operating speed, and speed-force aura tricks (environment, perception, etc). Flash's high end speed feats, the ones he'd use in this battle, are impossible for Superman because of environmental destruction, acceleration rate, and perception rate. We will never see Superman evac an entire city or build a bridge through super-speed alone. Supes will never time travel or exceed the speed of light to the multitudes Flash did.

Sacrifice is as poor an example as Blitz is. In Sacrifice, Wally didn't know he'd need to ramp up his perceptions, but still was the only one quick enough to catch on... meanwhile the same is true in Blitz, Superman appears as an unaware statue to the devestation caused by Wally and Zoom... but arguably the same excuse, no foreknowledge his perceptions need to be ramped... not so in this battle, where they both know they're fighting.

In Flash #209, Supes KNOWS he has to keep up with Flash and even there speaks to his need to ramp up his perceptions, likewise, Flash speaks to the confidence he has in his superior speed. In The Human Race, the ultimate speedster is necessary to save the planet, but Flash is selected over Supes. In Superman/Flash DC Firsts, Superman admits Wally would leave both him and Jay in the dust if not held back by Abracadabra.

When Supes hears Lois is shot- arguably the most important person to him in the world, where he would never hold back his speed- it takes him several thousand times longer to get to her than it did for Flash to find, carry, and evac 500,000 people. These are totally different magnitudes of operating speed.

Personally, to me there is no question who is faster.

For a victory, Flash has a couple options...

- Vibrations - Already prove he can phase through Supes, but the question is whether it would harm him. Supes has been phased into the JLA table and while he was certainly incapacitated and in great pain... it didn't kill him. So while this attack will work on Supes, it's not the instant-kill it would be for a lot of other heroes.

- IMP - Supes has proven he can "die" to blunt trauma as with Doomsday... and that fight clearly wasn't taking place at Flash-level superspeed (though probably quite fast). Flash could probably get in quite a few serious blows before Supes' perceptions caught up.

- Speed Steal/Boost - Taking Supes' speed and adding it to his own. Probably something he should be doing while doing the other attacks. One poster joked that he could turn Superman into a statue, cover him with a blanket, and come back to kill him after the power drained from his cells. Historically, Wally has be able to do this reliably time and time again... the ONLY place Wally says there's an issue is #209, arguably an excuse to justify a "race"... and technically speaking it's not an issue if this is a bloodlusted fight.

- Speed Force/Time Dump - I don't think the gap in speed is enough that Wally could catch Supes with this... the only possibility is if Supes tries to chase Wally and then he does it ala Savitar/Black Flash... but I like to think that Superman is smarter than that. Then again, if Supes isn't chasing Wally... how can he fight him?

- Time Travel - Ultimately this is Flash's trump card. Flash has been shown to be immune to paradox- meaning, he could go back in time and kill himself, but he'd still exist- however, Superman's recent travels through time as well as the Superman/Batman arc show that he is not. That means Wally can go back and erase Superman.

- Kryptonite - Pop into Bat's cave, take the ring, and come back to rumble.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman collapses his lungs by breathing in as the fights starts, like he did to the guy in Manchester Black's team The Elite. In issue 775.

Your turn.


This wouldn't work. Part of Flash's arsenal is circling a person to create a vacuum and take the air out of their lungs... yet the pressure difference has no effect on Flash. Heck, simply running at the speeds Flash does should tear the air from his lungs... but the Speed Force prevents it from being an issue.

Originally posted by Demas
First off, Superman is my favorite hero hands down... but I'm well read in Flash and he's a distant 2nd favorite. For these types of matches, Flash is built to win... that's mostly inapplicable to their comic book lives though. (Flash and Supes are very similar characters - both married, conseratively raised, mostly well-adjusted optimists, family ties, mentors, operate with public approval, etc.)

Anyways, this fight is Flash's 8/10... again the context is a bloodlusted fight where they both know it's coming at "Fight!"

Flash is not only faster that Supes, but has faster acceleration, faster operating speed, and speed-force aura tricks (environment, perception, etc). Flash's high end speed feats, the ones he'd use in this battle, are impossible for Superman because of environmental destruction, acceleration rate, and perception rate. We will never see Superman evac an entire city or build a bridge through super-speed alone. Supes will never time travel or exceed the speed of light to the multitudes Flash did.

Sacrifice is as poor an example as Blitz is. In Sacrifice, Wally didn't know he'd need to ramp up his perceptions, but still was the only one quick enough to catch on... meanwhile the same is true in Blitz, Superman appears as an unaware statue to the devestation caused by Wally and Zoom... but arguably the same excuse, no foreknowledge his perceptions need to be ramped... not so in this battle, where they both know they're fighting.

In Flash #209, Supes KNOWS he has to keep up with Flash and even there speaks to his need to ramp up his perceptions, likewise, Flash speaks to the confidence he has in his superior speed. In The Human Race, the ultimate speedster is necessary to save the planet, but Flash is selected over Supes. In Superman/Flash DC Firsts, Superman admits Wally would leave both him and Jay in the dust if not held back by Abracadabra.

When Supes hears Lois is shot- arguably the most important person to him in the world, where he would never hold back his speed- it takes him several thousand times longer to get to her than it did for Flash to find, carry, and evac 500,000 people. These are totally different magnitudes of operating speed.

Personally, to me there is no question who is faster.

For a victory, Flash has a couple options...

- Vibrations - Already prove he can phase through Supes, but the question is whether it would harm him. Supes has been phased into the JLA table and while he was certainly incapacitated and in great pain... it didn't kill him. So while this attack will work on Supes, it's not the instant-kill it would be for a lot of other heroes.

- IMP - Supes has proven he can "die" to blunt trauma as with Doomsday... and that fight clearly wasn't taking place at Flash-level superspeed (though probably quite fast). Flash could probably get in quite a few serious blows before Supes' perceptions caught up.

- Speed Steal/Boost - Taking Supes' speed and adding it to his own. Probably something he should be doing while doing the other attacks. One poster joked that he could turn Superman into a statue, cover him with a blanket, and come back to kill him after the power drained from his cells. Historically, Wally has be able to do this reliably time and time again... the ONLY place Wally says there's an issue is #209, arguably an excuse to justify a "race"... and technically speaking it's not an issue if this is a bloodlusted fight.

- Speed Force/Time Dump - I don't think the gap in speed is enough that Wally could catch Supes with this... the only possibility is if Supes tries to chase Wally and then he does it ala Savitar/Black Flash... but I like to think that Superman is smarter than that. Then again, if Supes isn't chasing Wally... how can he fight him?

- Time Travel - Ultimately this is Flash's trump card. Flash has been shown to be immune to paradox- meaning, he could go back in time and kill himself, but he'd still exist- however, Superman's recent travels through time as well as the Superman/Batman arc show that he is not. That means Wally can go back and erase Superman.

- Kryptonite - Pop into Bat's cave, take the ring, and come back to rumble.

Yay! We have a Flash fan. Now I can pass the responsiblity on to you, Demas. Swear to god, there was 200 page plus thread that went on and on because alot people thought Spider-Man could beat the Flash...

Originally posted by Juntai
He just has so much more at his disposal, plus a lot of Flash's powers, plus he's a quicker thinker. This is why I gave Superman a bit over half the wins.

This is also untrue.

Batman: "Our enemy is capable of studying, analyzing, planning and responding at speeds millions of times beyond anything in the 20th century. On the other hand...we have the Flash."

From DC One Million, they use Flash as the ultimate super-computer to out-tactical a space fleet from the 853rd (or some odd) Century. He's also defeated a Cyber-version of the Thinker through speed of thought.

Superman is better at EVERYTHING over ANYONE!

Originally posted by Demas
This is also untrue.

Batman: "Our enemy is capable of studying, analyzing, planning and responding at speeds millions of times beyond anything in the 20th century. On the other hand...we have the Flash."

From DC One Million, they use Flash as the ultimate super-computer to out-tactical a space fleet from the 853rd (or some odd) Century. He's also defeated a Cyber-version of the Thinker through speed of thought. Superman invents things and understands far beyond the human capacity. He also likewise thinks in Super-speed. In Sacrifice, he instantly outclassed the the entire JLA, and even let ready their attack first, and he had already formulated a plan around it. Flash was nearly on top of him while he did it, closing in at Superspeed.

It's all relative.. I just notice him doing it more often than I notice Flash.
He does it nearly every enemy he runs into, analyses and then hits them with neccisary force to take them down and not kill them.

Originally posted by Demas
First off, Superman is my favorite hero hands down... but I'm well read in Flash and he's a distant 2nd favorite. For these types of matches, Flash is built to win... that's mostly inapplicable to their comic book lives though. (Flash and Supes are very similar characters - both married, conseratively raised, mostly well-adjusted optimists, family ties, mentors, operate with public approval, etc.)

Anyways, this fight is Flash's 8/10... again the context is a bloodlusted fight where they both know it's coming at "Fight!"

Flash is not only faster that Supes, but has faster acceleration, faster operating speed, and speed-force aura tricks (environment, perception, etc). Flash's high end speed feats, the ones he'd use in this battle, are impossible for Superman because of environmental destruction, acceleration rate, and perception rate. We will never see Superman evac an entire city or build a bridge through super-speed alone. Supes will never time travel or exceed the speed of light to the multitudes Flash did.

Sacrifice is as poor an example as Blitz is. In Sacrifice, Wally didn't know he'd need to ramp up his perceptions, but still was the only one quick enough to catch on... meanwhile the same is true in Blitz, Superman appears as an unaware statue to the devestation caused by Wally and Zoom... but arguably the same excuse, no foreknowledge his perceptions need to be ramped... not so in this battle, where they both know they're fighting.

In Flash #209, Supes KNOWS he has to keep up with Flash and even there speaks to his need to ramp up his perceptions, likewise, Flash speaks to the confidence he has in his superior speed. In The Human Race, the ultimate speedster is necessary to save the planet, but Flash is selected over Supes. In Superman/Flash DC Firsts, Superman admits Wally would leave both him and Jay in the dust if not held back by Abracadabra.

When Supes hears Lois is shot- arguably the most important person to him in the world, where he would never hold back his speed- it takes him several thousand times longer to get to her than it did for Flash to find, carry, and evac 500,000 people. These are totally different magnitudes of operating speed.

Personally, to me there is no question who is faster.

For a victory, Flash has a couple options...

- Vibrations - Already prove he can phase through Supes, but the question is whether it would harm him. Supes has been phased into the JLA table and while he was certainly incapacitated and in great pain... it didn't kill him. So while this attack will work on Supes, it's not the instant-kill it would be for a lot of other heroes.

- IMP - Supes has proven he can "die" to blunt trauma as with Doomsday... and that fight clearly wasn't taking place at Flash-level superspeed (though probably quite fast). Flash could probably get in quite a few serious blows before Supes' perceptions caught up.

- Speed Steal/Boost - Taking Supes' speed and adding it to his own. Probably something he should be doing while doing the other attacks. One poster joked that he could turn Superman into a statue, cover him with a blanket, and come back to kill him after the power drained from his cells. Historically, Wally has be able to do this reliably time and time again... the ONLY place Wally says there's an issue is #209, arguably an excuse to justify a "race"... and technically speaking it's not an issue if this is a bloodlusted fight.

- Speed Force/Time Dump - I don't think the gap in speed is enough that Wally could catch Supes with this... the only possibility is if Supes tries to chase Wally and then he does it ala Savitar/Black Flash... but I like to think that Superman is smarter than that. Then again, if Supes isn't chasing Wally... how can he fight him?

- Time Travel - Ultimately this is Flash's trump card. Flash has been shown to be immune to paradox- meaning, he could go back in time and kill himself, but he'd still exist- however, Superman's recent travels through time as well as the Superman/Batman arc show that he is not. That means Wally can go back and erase Superman.

- Kryptonite - Pop into Bat's cave, take the ring, and come back to rumble.


Superman is great
Flash is cool

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman invents things and understands far beyond the human capacity. He also likewise thinks in Super-speed. In Sacrifice, he instantly outclassed the the entire JLA, and even let ready their attack first, and he had already formulated a plan around it. Flash was nearly on top of him while he did it, closing in at Superspeed.

It's all relative.. I just notice him doing it more often than I notice Flash.
He does it nearly every enemy he runs into, analyses and then hits them with neccisary force to take them down and not kill them.

You can't really use comic-book situational VS. and apply them to forum bouts since plot and character popularity interferes. Superman is central to the DCU so there are clearly going to be more stories about him taking on the world, rogue or not.

Sacrifice is again a poor example to continually cite because 1. The story demands the outcome no matter how contrived. 2. All intents and purposes it was a surprise attack.

Neither of these conditions apply to a forum match where the combatants are free from plot contraints and attack each other from the get go with everything they have.

We have repeated precedent that Superman is operationally significantly slower than Flash (for example, outracing the Zeta Beam in JLA) and we have Flash with a sufficiently damaging arsenal to affect Superman before he can completely respond.

You'll never see this happen in the books because it runs as contrary to the nature of comics as it is to have Iceman and Emma take out every single x-threat through telepathy and instafreeze... or for Flash/Superman to conclude all their business in 3 panels, for that matter.

We've seen Wally and Bart exercise exceptional levels of thinking and strategy... if you think about it, Flash relies on clever application of his single specialized power on a far more regular basis than Superman, a generalist, who often relies on strength first (if the plot hadn't demanded it, couldn't Superman have fetched a boom tube generator and taken Doomsday off planet in a blink of an eye, rather than laying down his life?).

But regardless, their tendancies are irrelevant to this battle otherwise lobotomy wouldn't even be on the table (frankly I doubt he can do it anyways, considering Flash outran his heat vision)... these are characters using their peak abilities from "Go!" not holding back, dueling, and wrestling for the advantage.

Flash wins 10 times out of 10.

wow...demas knows his stuff. I was thinking Flash wins in the first place, but he just made me absolutely certain of that fact....

Awesometastic guys, Wally is god!!!

Flash wins this.

The match could go either way, but Superman could turn the whole area into lava or Ice, making it difficult for Flash to get around.

As long as Superman stay off the ground (it whould be best to attack from space where Flash whould never be able to reach him, this whould be easy for Superman too since he has Xray/Microscope Vision) he'll be safe from Flash attacks.

Unless Superman starts in the air, he won't be making it airborne as soon as the fight starts.

Flash will have already KOed him before Supes takes off.

Even if he is in the air, I'm under the impression that Flash can indeed fly, just chooses not to because it's not as reliable or as fast I'm sure.

Anyway, Flash wins.

FLash

Bloodlusted Superman is faster than Wally, apperently, as seen in Sacrifice. That is...until he reaches time travel speed, and Superman has many times been portrayed -- even during his holding back time -- as faster than Wally on the jump. And whoever gets the jump in this fight, is pretty much going to win. It can go either way really.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Unless Superman starts in the air, he won't be making it airborne as soon as the fight starts.

Flash will have already KOed him before Supes takes off.

Even if he is in the air, I'm under the impression that Flash can indeed fly, just chooses not to because it's not as reliable or as fast I'm sure.

Anyway, Flash wins.


Happened in Kingdom Come, something about vibrating his molcules in one direction (to be able to go up) and stuff......but Wally hasnt done that himself, so maybe he just doesnt know he can....

Originally posted by Juntai
Bloodlusted Superman is faster than Wally, apperently, as seen in Sacrifice. That is...until he reaches time travel speed, and Superman has many times been portrayed -- even during his holding back time -- as faster than Wally on the jump. And whoever gets the jump in this fight, is pretty much going to win. It can go either way really.

Where do people get that Superman was faster then Wally from Sacrifice? 1. Superman was on the offensive and it was a surprise offensive. That automatically gives him the advantage. 2. Superman basically said himself that he really only got away because Flash was busy saving everyone else's lives lol 3. Wally was obviously holding back more. If you read Sacrifice (the whole story) you know Wally was one of the people that was like "Its Superman, he couldnt have done it" and "Are you sure we should be doing it, come on its Superman." Superman on the other hand wasnt trying to kill or seriously hurt anyone, but he was super parinoid and thought the whole league was being mind controlled and against him. Wally's powers are highly psychological, he was clearly at a disadvantage through out the whole thing.

In what issue did this happen?

Adventures of Supeman #642

Originally posted by 3.14
Where do people get that Superman was faster then Wally from Sacrifice? 1. Superman was on the offensive and it was a surprise offensive. That automatically gives him the advantage. 2. Superman basically said himself that he really only got away because Flash was busy saving everyone else's lives lol 3. Wally was obviously holding back more. If you read Sacrifice (the whole story) you know Wally was one of the people that was like "Its Superman, he couldnt have done it" and "Are you sure we should be doing it, come on its Superman." Superman on the other hand wasnt trying to kill or seriously hurt anyone, but he was super parinoid and thought the whole league was being mind controlled and against him. Wally's powers are highly psychological, he was clearly at a disadvantage through out the whole thing.

From the scans I have been shown, Id have to agree......plus you never actually see him and supes in one on one confrontation.....

Originally posted by 3.14
Adventures of Supeman #642

Thanks.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Unless Superman starts in the air, he won't be making it airborne as soon as the fight starts.

Flash will have already KOed him before Supes takes off.

Even if he is in the air, I'm under the impression that Flash can indeed fly, just chooses not to because it's not as reliable or as fast I'm sure.

Anyway, Flash wins.

Superman is fast enough to get off into the air, Superman I think whould be able to fly away from Wally faster than he can run. Every time they had a race Superman is always running, not flying.


Flash can't fly, he can run in the for a short time, but that's it. Superman is going to be attacking from space too.

Originally posted by 3.14
Where do people get that Superman was faster then Wally from Sacrifice? 1. Superman was on the offensive and it was a surprise offensive. That automatically gives him the advantage. 2. Superman basically said himself that he really only got away because Flash was busy saving everyone else's lives lol 3. Wally was obviously holding back more. If you read Sacrifice (the whole story) you know Wally was one of the people that was like "Its Superman, he couldnt have done it" and "Are you sure we should be doing it, come on its Superman." Superman on the other hand wasnt trying to kill or seriously hurt anyone, but he was super parinoid and thought the whole league was being mind controlled and against him. Wally's powers are highly psychological, he was clearly at a disadvantage through out the whole thing. Superman surprised attacked Martian Manhunter, then the team jumped him Wally specifically was right on top of him, he stood there and waited for their attacks. Read it again. "Wally is fast enough to see the attack coming, but not fast enough to do anything about it." In the next scenes, every JLAer is strewn about across the ground, although you don't see Wally's, he WAS the closest man to Superman when he started attacking, within arms reach.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman surprised attacked Martian Manhunter, then the team jumped him Wally specifically was right on top of him, he stood there and waited for their attacks. Read it again. "Wally is fast enough to see the attack coming, but not fast enough to do anything about it." In the next scenes, every JLAer is strewn about across the ground, although you don't see Wally's, he WAS the closest man to Superman when he started attacking, within arms reach.

Actually if you read the comic you can clearly see what happens.

img505.imageshack.us/img505/8577/adventuresofsuperman642p179se.jpg
Superman quickly takes out MM and then goes for Wally which you can clearly see that Wally dodged/moved out of the way so that Superman didnt grab him. Then Green lantern captures Supes in a contruct.

img505.imageshack.us/img505/2443/adventuresofsuperman642p18and1.jpg
Here you can clearly see what happens. Superman is in the contruct, he is directly facing Hawkman and GL while Canary is to his left and Wally is to his right. Superman punches so hard that he rips a hole through the construct and the hule of the station knocking Hawkman and GL back (notice how Black Canary is completly unhit by the blast and supes is still in the now broken construct, you dont see wally but you can clearly see from before that he was not in the path of the blast.)

img505.imageshack.us/img505/6319/adventuresofsuperman642p209xs.jpg
Here is the aftermath. GL and Hawkman were the only ones physically hit by Superman and Flash is to busy saving everyone's lives to stop Superman (Superman was counting on Flash being to busy to worry about him for a few seconds.)

Superman ment that Flash wasnt fast enough to stop him from destroying the hule (notice how Supes was in a construct and Flash really couldnt get to him). Once the hule of the station was destroyed Superman knew Flash would forget about him. Nothing about this proves anything about Superman being faster then Flash in any situation.