Sidious owns the Confederacy?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Sorgo
For those of you who think Sidious owned the Confederacy and Dooku didn't.

Here is proof. Dooku FOUNDED the damned Confederacy, and I am sure Sidious had no intention of taking it over, considering there was no water-held proof that he did.


Databank sez:

It was Dooku who founded the Confederacy by uniting the most powerful commerce barons in the galaxy to his cause.



Databank sez:

Darth Tyranus led a Separatist movement


Databank sez:
Count Dooku emerged as the leader of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, a militarized force of dissidents challenging the Republic for autonomy.

Captain REX
As the war went on, I'm sure Sidious took control as well. Otherwise, Grievous probably wouldn't give a shit about anything he says, nor would the Separatist Council.

But Dooku was pretty much the owner of everything, yes.

Sorgo
Sidious took over after Dooku's death.

Sorgo
And Sidious did have Secondary say when Dooku was alive.

Out of Rex's mouth:

Dooku probably said "Listen to Sidious or he or I will kill you.

Captain REX
Yup!

Darth Jello
read the novilization of episode III and you'll realize that the confederacy would eventually be merged with the republic in a sith empire protected by an order of Sith knights, at least in Dooku's mind...

Ushgarak
Well, are you talking proximate or ultimate?

Because ultimately, as Dooku and Grievous did whatever Sidious said, then effectively it WAS under the control of Sidious; he just delegated a lot.

henniestevens
yes dooku owned the confederacy, sidious owned dooku and therefore sidious owned the confederacy.

exanda kane
Originally posted by henniestevens
yes dooku owned the confederacy, sidious owned dooku and therefore sidious owned the confederacy.

Owned isnt the right word, I hope its just a generalisation on your behalf.

Dooku was the Count of Sereeno (Hence the name Count Dooku) and with that money he first founded the Confederacy, the political movement side of it, and then more money was put up by the Trade Federation, Techno Union etc., yet Count Dooku was the one in charge by the orders of Sidious...

Escape81
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, are you talking proximate or ultimate?

Because ultimately, as Dooku and Grievous did whatever Sidious said, then effectively it WAS under the control of Sidious; he just delegated a lot.

This about sums it up. Dooku founded the Confederacy, that was stated. But he was just a puppet of Sidious, Sorgo. When the Council and Grievous came along, if Dooku's orders disputed with Sidious's, who'd you think they'd obey? Sidious. He was the ultimate leader of the Separatists. But not to the public.

overlord
Hey, a thread about how much Dooku r0xx00rz! Killer cool!

Captain REX
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, are you talking proximate or ultimate?

Because ultimately, as Dooku and Grievous did whatever Sidious said, then effectively it WAS under the control of Sidious; he just delegated a lot.

Hmm, didn't think about that. My first answer was more ultimate minded, then.

Sorgo
Originally posted by Escape81
This about sums it up. Dooku founded the Confederacy, that was stated. But he was just a puppet of Sidious, Sorgo. When the Council and Grievous came along, if Dooku's orders disputed with Sidious's, who'd you think they'd obey? Sidious. He was the ultimate leader of the Separatists. But not to the public.

Sidious did not "Own" Dooku. Dooku was "Working" for Sidious.

The Army WAS NOT Sidious' Army whatsoever. Dooku GAVE Sidious the power of being a voice of the Confederacy probably after he became his apprentice.

Escape81
Originally posted by Sorgo
Sidious did not "Own" Dooku. Dooku was "Working" for Sidious.

The Army WAS NOT Sidious' Army whatsoever. Dooku GAVE Sidious the power of being a voice of the Confederacy probably after he became his apprentice.

Really? So he was getting paid? A salary? Dental?

Escape81
Sorgo, you're going to have to face the facts. Dooku is uber-cool. But so were Maul, Vader, and Grievous. Dooku was Palpatine's puppet. His little b!tch. Sidious gave Dooku orders and Dooku executed them. The CIS was founded by Dooku, but Sidious was the one who gave him the orders to do it. During the war, the Separatist Council and Grievous learned of the true power behind the Confederacy, and thus - they obeyed Sidious.

In authority: Sidious > Dooku.

Shadow x 20
Actually no. Sidious didn't do a thing for the Confederacy expect destroy them. If the Republic won the war Sidious won, if the Confederacy won the war Sidious won. Sidious just wanted the stronger army so he allowed Dooku to do whatever he wanted in order to learn which side was stronger. The only thing Sidious did was destroy the Confederacy in Revenge of the Sith.

Escape81
Originally posted by Shadow x 20
Actually no. Sidious didn't do a thing for the Confederacy expect destroy them. If the Republic won the war Sidious won, if the Confederacy won the war Sidious won. Sidious just wanted the stronger army so he allowed Dooku to do whatever he wanted in order to learn which side was stronger. The only thing Sidious did was destroy the Confederacy in Revenge of the Sith.

I don't think so.

Sidious's plan was to initiate a civil war. Thus, he used Count Dooku to create and form the Confederacy. He could not act as its public leader, so he had to create it through the Count. When the war started, the Separatist Council was notified that it was not Count Dooku who truly led the Confederacy, but that he answered to a superior, which was Darth Sidious.

General Grievous (the military commander), Count Dooku (political head of state) and the Separatist Council (the representatives of the Confederate membership) all obeyed Darth Sidious. All were in active communication with him, though Sidious allowed Dooku to give most of the orders for the Confederacy. Sidious's authority in the Confederacy superceded Dooku's own. So, if Dooku ever had a falling out or disagreed, the Separatist Council (governing body) and General Grievous (military commander) still obeyed Sidious. In all of the Expanded Universe works, it has shown that they both fear Sidious more.

Count Dooku was allowed to lead the Confederacy. But I'd imagine that Sidious made his presence known to the Council and to Grievous for a reason. That reason probably was that if Dooku succumbed to temptation, idealism, or vision - and decided to betray Sidious, that the majority of the leadership understood that the true power came from their de facto leader and benefactor, Sidious himself.

So. In authority with the Confederacy, Sidious is superior to Dooku. Dooku's underlings were more of Sidious's underlings. At a snap of his fingers, Sidious could instruct Grievous to have the army stand down. If that didn't work, he could do the same for the Separatist Council.

Sidious > Dooku.

Sorgo
Originally posted by Escape81
Sorgo, you're going to have to face the facts. Dooku is uber-cool. But so were Maul, Vader, and Grievous. Dooku was Palpatine's puppet. His little b!tch. Sidious gave Dooku orders and Dooku executed them. The CIS was founded by Dooku, but Sidious was the one who gave him the orders to do it. During the war, the Separatist Council and Grievous learned of the true power behind the Confederacy, and thus - they obeyed Sidious.

In authority: Sidious > Dooku.

You think just because they obeyed Sidious this means Dooku was automatically in second charge? And I take it you obviously think that because Sidious is the Master he also controls "Dooku's" Army? No... I don't think so. Dooku controlled his Army to his extent. Dooku was Sidious' Apprentice. Not a b!tch, His Apprentice.

Sidious was secondary in charge of the CIS. When Dooku's death came to be, Sidious took full charge. Grievous was also inlisted in Sidious' command. Reason? Dooku's death. If Dooku didn't die, Grievous would still be listening to Dooku. And I am sure Dooku commanded that Grievous listen to Sidious if anything were to happen.

Sorgo
I have provided more direct proof that Dooku controlled the CIS and Sidious did NOT.

Even when Sidious tells Grievous to move it, he says:

DARTH SlDIOUS: General Grievous, I suggest you move the Separatist leaders to Mustafar.

^ A suggestion? Yes.

It says NOWHERE in the Databank or from Lucas that Sidious had any control whatsoever of the CIS. Nor was it obvious.

Shadow x 20
I don't know. The Trade Federation had its bad times with Sidious and I'm sure they would support Dooku more then Sidious. Not to mention they were all worried in ROTS after Dooku's death.

overlord
Dooku lead it, period..

Sidious was just a manipulative factor.

Escape81
Originally posted by Sorgo
I have provided more direct proof that Dooku controlled the CIS and Sidious did NOT.

Even when Sidious tells Grievous to move it, he says:

DARTH SlDIOUS: General Grievous, I suggest you move the Separatist leaders to Mustafar.

^ A suggestion? Yes.

It says NOWHERE in the Databank or from Lucas that Sidious had any control whatsoever of the CIS. Nor was it obvious.

Lmao. Ah, yes. Need I remind you that General Grievous had bowed on one knee and addressed the Dark Lord as: Lord Sidious? Oddly enough, Grievous immediately agreed. That suggestion may have Sidious just pretending that he valued Grievous's opinion.

As for the Trade Federation, Gunray and his lackeys came to Dooku because Sidious betrayed them. Then, when the Clone Wars had begun, Sidious was revealed to be Dooku's master. But by that time, of course, Gunray had no choice but to continue. Dooku wouldn't let him waltz out of the Confederacy with that information.

Dooku, Grievous, Gunray, and the other Separatist Leaders knew of Sidious and addressed him as my lord. Dooku led the Confederacy in a sense, and he did form it. But it was Sidious who had the higher authority.

overlord
Yeah, Sidious gets his way but he doesn't own or lead trade federation. (going back on the actual topic)

Escape81
Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, Sidious gets his way but he doesn't own or lead trade federation. (going back on the actual topic)

It was never said that he led, formed, or owned the Trade Federation. Gunray and Haako led the Federation. But when they all joined the CIS, they put themselves back under Sidious's rule.

Sorgo
Lmao. Ah, yes. Need I remind you that General Grievous had bowed on one knee and addressed the Dark Lord as: Lord Sidious? Oddly enough, Grievous immediately agreed. That suggestion may have Sidious just pretending that he valued Grievous opinion.

Lmao. Grievous began to obey Sidious after the Death of Dooku. I am sure Dooku would insure that if Dooku passed, his Master would be in charge.

It states nowhere and has not been said by Lucas that Sidious had any direct or overhanded authority to Dooku before his Death. And there sure as hell isn't proof in the movies.

As for the Trade Federation, Gunray and his lackeys came to Dooku because Sidious betrayed them. Then, when the Clone Wars had begun, Sidious was revealed to be Dooku's master. But by that time, of course, Gunray had no choice but to continue. Dooku wouldn't let him waltz out of the Confederacy with that information.

He did betray them. This doesn't signify his ownership to the Army. Especially on Episode I: He was helping the army out, he wasn't the Master. He didn't own them whatsoever, they were partners.

Dooku, Grievous, Gunray, and the other Separatist Leaders knew of Sidious and addressed him as my lord. Dooku led the Confederacy in a sense, and he did form it. But it was Sidious who had the higher authority.

Of course they addressed him as Milord. Dooku was in charge and obviously wanted them to be completely respectful to his Master. This shows no proof that Sidious was fully in charge or had higher authority.

Escape81
1. To my knowledge, Labyrinth of Evil is canon, because it detailed the events leading up to the capture of Palpatine. It has not been cited as wrong or non-canon by Lucas, and has displayed the events in continuity to be accurate. In that scene, Grievous takes orders specifically from Sidious, as does Dooku. Dooku gives orders to Grievous, which were given to Dooku to relay.

2. He doesn't own the Trade Federation. He doesn't own any of the commerce guilds. But he does control the CIS, because he controlled Dooku. He controlled Grievous. He controlled the Council. Notice a pattern?

3. Obviously? The way I see it, there is no proof to indicate that it was just Dooku asking the Separatist council to be polite to Sidious.

Shadow x 20
1. True

2. False. He had no real power in controlling the council. The council was formed to assist Dooku/Sidious with the Confederacy and not Sidious bossing around the council.

3. True

Sorgo
1. To my knowledge, Labyrinth of Evil is canon, because it detailed the events leading up to the capture of Palpatine. It has not been cited as wrong or non-canon by Lucas, and has displayed the events in continuity to be accurate. In that scene, Grievous takes orders specifically from Sidious, as does Dooku. Dooku gives orders to Grievous, which were given to Dooku to relay.

Books aren't Canon. They have no association with Lucas or Lucasfilm. If the Databank isn't considered Canon, why should the Books be? They have no relation to Lucas, have been known to clash with movie fact and artists that create the book have admitted to the favortism of a Character in the book.

2. He doesn't own the Trade Federation. He doesn't own any of the commerce guilds. But he does control the CIS, because he controlled Dooku. He controlled Grievous. He controlled the Council. Notice a pattern?

Sidious didn't own the CIS. He DOES NOT own everything and he didn't own the CIS and no proof has been given forth to this theory. Dooku has stone-clad proof that he was the Leader of the CIS. There is proof. I haven't seen any proof from the Movies, the Databank or anything else except Sidious' control of the CIS after Dooku's death. He started giving Grievous orders after Dooku's death but Grievous was Dooku's Toy, not Sidious'. Obviously, Dooku told Grievous to listen to Sidious. I mean come on, man! Sidious was Dooku's Master! Of course he is gonna tell people to listen to his Master!

3. Obviously? The way I see it, there is no proof to indicate that it was just Dooku asking the Separatist council to be polite to Sidious.

No, Of course not. That is just a Theory. But there is proof that Dooku completely leads and owns the CIS and Sidious has no proof of being Higher Authority or even having a secondary say during Dooku's lifetime.

Shadow x 20
Actually after the death of Count Dooku General Grievous became leader of the CIS.

Sorgo
Originally posted by Shadow x 20
Actually after the death of Count Dooku General Grievous became leader of the CIS.


You're completely wrong. Grievous was a Military Commander, not a Leader.

Notice how he was still titled General after the death of Dooku?

Escape81
Shadow -

The Council was formed to assist with the governing of the CIS with Grievous and Dooku. But the fact of the matter is this. Sidious was the one who gave Dooku, Grievous, and the Council their orders. As Ush and the others have put it: ultimately, the CIS was controlled by Sidious.

Sorgo -

You use the adjective obviously far too much. If it were obvious, we would not be debating right now. Grievous was actually brought to Sidious's attention before Dooku's. Sidious instructed Dooku to do whatever he could to bring the General to the CIS. So, San Hill and Dooku had Grievous's body destroyed. Grievious is Sidious's toy. Hell, Sorgo. Everyone in the PT and OT were Sidious's toy.

The fact is this. Dooku obeyed Sidious. Grievous obeyed Sidious. The Council obeyed Sidious. Sidious was the benefactor, the de facto leader, and the mastermind behind it all. They obeyed Sidious. All of them. Sidious controlled the CIS.

Sorgo
Show me proof Sidious controlled the CIS, not just theories. Do you really think Sidious controlled everything? He didn't.

And I didn't see him owning everyone in the OT. Especially when Vader chucked him into a Shaft.

Shadow x 20
Originally posted by Escape81
Shadow -

The Council was formed to assist with the governing of the CIS with Grievous and Dooku. But the fact of the matter is this. Sidious was the one who gave Dooku, Grievous, and the Council their orders. As Ush and the others have put it: ultimately, the CIS was controlled by Sidious.

Sorgo -

You use the adjective obviously far too much. If it were obvious, we would not be debating right now. Grievous was actually brought to Sidious's attention before Dooku's. Sidious instructed Dooku to do whatever he could to bring the General to the CIS. So, San Hill and Dooku had Grievous's body destroyed. Grievious is Sidious's toy. Hell, Sorgo. Everyone in the PT and OT were Sidious's toy.

The fact is this. Dooku obeyed Sidious. Grievous obeyed Sidious. The Council obeyed Sidious. Sidious was the benefactor, the de facto leader, and the mastermind behind it all. They obeyed Sidious. All of them. Sidious controlled the CIS.

Shadow-
No that's like saying Bush owns the senate.

Escape81
Originally posted by Sorgo
Show me proof Sidious controlled the CIS, not just theories. Do you really think Sidious controlled everything? He didn't.

And I didn't see him owning everyone in the OT. Especially when Vader chucked him into a Shaft.

Okay. Just to clarify this, as this same attitude has been argued with before. What you're doing, Sorgo, is playing on words and events. You also spouted that Sidious must be weak because he was chucked down a reactor shaft by a guy in a respirator. Oddly enough, that guy in the respirator had the strength of three men. But like several others before you, you leave out that detail.

So, let me reiterate. Everyone in the PT. Dooku, Maul, Anakin, Padme, Yoda, Mace, Jango, Gunray, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and all the others were used and manipulated by Sidious. Sidious outsmarted, outwitted, outdid them all. Like every other person in literature, he had faults. He failed, in the end. All villains do. But as far as control or manipulative power, Sidious has no equal. You do this to undermine his achievements. As I said, he failed. But for the most part, Sidious used them all as toys. Dooku included.

Secondly... It has been established that Dooku, Grievous, and the Separatist Council led, created, and governed the CIS. It has also been established that Sidious controlled them. So, he controlled the leaders of the CIS, thus making him the ultimate authority in it.

Escape81
Originally posted by Shadow x 20
Shadow-
No that's like saying Bush owns the senate.

No. The United States government has a formal system of checks and balances. President Bush does not control the Senate. You see, the Senate was established to make the laws, whereas the President executes them. It is the reverse. Sidious makes the laws and commands, and Dooku, Grievous, and Gunray all obey, and thus execute.

Shadow x 20
The council was made to assist Dooku/Sidious. It was like Gunray and Sidious during TPM. Sidious gave them the commands but they were free to fulfill them anyway they wanted to.

Captain REX
*doesn't read anything because of pointless bickering*

Sidious ultimately gave all the orders, whether it was Dooku or Grievous or Gunray or Poggle or Genghis Khan who executed them. Dooku may have started it and owns it, blah blah blah, but Sidious essentially led it, even if it wasn't publicly.

Sorgo
Okay. Just to clarify this, as this same attitude has been argued with before. What you're doing, Sorgo, is playing on words and events. You also spouted that Sidious must be weak because he was chucked down a reactor shaft by a guy in a respirator. Oddly enough, that guy in the respirator had the strength of three men. But like several others before you, you leave out that detail.


Sidious was never a Direct fighter. He was never good at physically defending himself or doing so in Lightsaber combat. I mean... Damn he was good. Killed three Jedi and was on par with Yoda.

It's Ironic..... Sidious could foresee alot of things, but the one thing he could not foresee was his quick death. He was smashed in the face by his own arrogance and couldn't even sense the fact that Vader was to save his son and that Vader had feelings for his son. Such a Mastermind. He owned the Galaxy, basically played the PT Characters like chess pieces... Until he was destroyed by Vader.

Wait.... Sidious' Cane is a cover-up, according to you. Why didn't Sidious just move fast like you claim he did with Luke? Or why not just quickly Force push Vader? Or counterattack? Couldn't he foresee it? Didn't he have that power?


Yeah, Vader had the strength of three men but Sidious had the Force power of Four men and he had a very capable Foresight ability... apparently....


Like I said before... Just because Sidious was Dooku's Master or Higher level to Grievous doesn't mean he owned Dooku's army. Show me proof he owned the army or that he was even in lead command. I continuously ask you for proof that Sidious was in lead of the CIS before Dooku's death.

What do I receive?

THEORIES

^ And only those. Until I see proof, I will not buy it.

I am a Realist. That is just the way I am.

Escape81
Sorgo, here is where you disappoint me.

1. Sidious was good enough to where he had Mace on the defensive, killed three Jedi Masters, and none of Yoda's blows broke through his defense. Oh, he's very skilled at it.

2. Sidious's foresight was superior to anyone else's in the PT. I defy anyone who says otherwise. His only competition is Yoda. Sidious is, and I'll put emphasis on it: NOT PERFECT!!. No one, not even in Star Wars, is. Not Sidious, not Mace, not Yoda, and not Dooku. Sidious made mistakes! His foresight, like the Jedi before him, waned! It was still good enough to make him (and I'll put emphasis on this, as well) EMPEROR of the GALAXY.

3. Sidious's cane IS a cover-up! I've told you, and so has Faunus. He discarded the damn thing in his throne room, where he was under the eyes of only VADER and LUKE. Next thing you're going to come up with is that the cane was secretly in his hand all along, or that Vader somehow used the Force to make him walk without it. Sidious USED the cane to APPEAR weak. Does the scene in ROTS not ring a damn bell when he FAKED weakness to Mace? He likes to pretend that he is weak. Damn, Sorgo...

4. Read point two. You know, I grow tired of this. Go read all of the Star Wars works. Go to the site. Go ask any other debator on here, and they will all tell you the same. Sidious had outstanding foresight ability, but, like everything else - it faded. Also, Sidious was so intent on torturing Luke that he didn't even spare Vader a passing glance.

5. Grievous took orders from Sidious. Gunray and the council took orders from Sidious. Dooku took orders from Sidious. All of the leaders of the CIS took orders from someone else... that someone is technically the leader. Also, it isn't Dooku's army. It belongs to the commerce guilds. So go prove to me that it belonged to Dooku. :P

Tangible God
Like hell I'm reading those two pages.

Dooku had total control of the Confederacy, but he was acting under Sidious's orders. Sidious himself did not lead them, but he was the mastermind of it, and the master of Dooku.

Also, if what Dooku said was true, about "The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this, Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed, ten years ago, by the Dark Lord." If that was true, then do you really think Gunray would AGAIN be allying with, and taking orders from Sidious?

Escape81
Originally posted by Tangible God
Like hell I'm reading those two pages.

Dooku had total control of the Confederacy, but he was acting under Sidious's orders. Sidious himself did not lead them, but he was the mastermind of it, and the master of Dooku.

Also, if what Dooku said was true, about "The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this, Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed, ten years ago, by the Dark Lord." If that was true, then do you really think Gunray would AGAIN be allying with, and taking orders from Sidious?

Gunray found out two months after the battle of Geonosis, Tangible. He had no choice. Dooku or Sidious would've killed him if he tried to leave.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Escape81
Gunray found out two months after the battle of Geonosis, Tangible. He had no choice. Dooku or Sidious would've killed him if he tried to leave. True enough, he always was someone else's b*tch. But if he knew from the start do you think he would've?

Escape81
Originally posted by Tangible God
True enough, he always was someone else's b*tch. But if he knew from the start do you think he would've?

Fear is an excellent motivator. Gunray probably would, if simply out of fear. Sidious may not be all-powerful, but he can sure as hell adapt the image to his underlings. When you have Vader, Maul, Gunray, Dooku, and Grievous all bowing down at your damn feet, you must appear to be powerful. If the fear didn't get to Gunray first, the lust of power would.

Tangible God
Yeah, like Dooku, he probably figured that he'd have Sid's undieing favour if they won the war.

Escape81
Indeed. But regarding the Confederacy, it was indeed under Sidious's command. Count Dooku led the political factions of the CIS, Grievous led the military, and the Separatist Council did a mix of both, and led the commerce guilds that built the Confederacy's army. They all obeyed Sidious. I doubt it was just Count Dooku saying:

"Well, listen, you gotta obey my master or else..."

Sidious was in contact with the Separatist leaders two months after the Battle of Geonosis. Grievous took orders from Dooku, but directly obeyed Sidious. As in Labyrinth of Evil, Dooku was dishing out orders to Grievous when Sidious's hologram popped up. Dooku shut up. So did Grievous. Both didn't acknowledge eachother while their master was there. They both were rigidly controlled by him.

So, when you control the leaders of an organization, you are the true leader. The true power. Which is what Sidious was.

overlord
Why go so deep into it? We all know Sorgo's vision to Dooku and Escapes vision to Sidious but let's just keep it at Dooku officially leading the whole crap organisation.

Escape81
Originally posted by overlord
Why go so deep into it? We all know Sorgo's vision to Dooku and Escapes vision to Sidious but let's just keep it at Dooku officially leading the whole crap organisation.

This is not about my opinions of Sidious or Dooku. This is about who led the Confederacy. Dooku led it to the public. But the power behind it was Sidious. He controlled the leaders. It's a fact.

overlord
Your 'controlling' is called manipulation and I'm talking about officially ruling.
But this thread only contributes to the global Sidious vs Dooku battle that is going on. It's in every thread and it is making me hate those characters.

Escape81
Originally posted by overlord
Your 'controlling' is called manipulation and I'm talking about officially ruling.
But this thread only contributes to the global Sidious vs Dooku battle that is going on. It's in every thread and it is making me hate those characters.

It's not on every thread. That argument pertained to Dooku and Sidious in the Force and in saber skills. This involves who has the higher authority.

Oh, and officially? Officially it is the Separatist Council who leads the CIS. But we know that sure as hell isn't true. Sidious was the power behind the CIS. Dooku, Grievous, Gunray, Argente, Poggle, and all the others took orders from Sidious.

Sidious ruled the Confederacy, just like he ruled the Republic. Not officially, but in actuality.

overlord
So Dooku rules it with others, Sidious is the manipulating factor and convinces them to do stuff for him and all that crap. Just get over it that Sidious doesn't control it.

But Jesus Christ, the constant defence for Sidious everywhere, it is making me hate him even though he's my favorite character.
You must admit that both your fanboy mentalities are shining through like crazy.

Escape81
Originally posted by overlord
So Dooku rules it with others, Sidious is the manipulating factor and convinces them to do stuff for him and all that crap. Just get over it that Sidious doesn't control it.

But Jesus Christ, the constant defence for Sidious everywhere, it is making me hate him even though he's my favorite character.
You must admit that both your fanboy mentalities are shining through like crazy.

I'm not a Sidious-fanboy. If I had an inclination to be anything, it would be a Yoda fanboy. The reason you see me defend Sidious so often is that you have some people who undermine his skills as a Force-user and so forth. When I am told that Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber skills may be equal to Sidious's, I tend to get a little. . . drastic.

Now. The point is...

1. Sidious ordered Dooku to construct the Confederacy.

2. Dooku obeys Sidious.

3. Grievous obeys Sidious.

4. Council obeys Sidious.

Holy crap! Look what that means! Oh yeah. . . it means Sidious rules the Confederacy.

Sorgo
1. Sidious was good enough to where he had Mace on the defensive, killed three Jedi Masters, and none of Yoda's blows broke through his defense. Oh, he's very skilled at it.

^ Didn't I JUST point that out? Damn, Escape.

2. Sidious's foresight was superior to anyone else's in the PT. I defy anyone who says otherwise. His only competition is Yoda. Sidious is, and I'll put emphasis on it: NOT PERFECT!!. No one, not even in Star Wars, is. Not Sidious, not Mace, not Yoda, and not Dooku. Sidious made mistakes! His foresight, like the Jedi before him, waned! It was still good enough to make him (and I'll put emphasis on this, as well) EMPEROR of the GALAXY.

Sure it was good enough. But the one thing he could not forsee was his own demise? That's something to laugh at.

3. Sidious's cane IS a cover-up! I've told you, and so has Faunus. He discarded the damn thing in his throne room, where he was under the eyes of only VADER and LUKE. Next thing you're going to come up with is that the cane was secretly in his hand all along, or that Vader somehow used the Force to make him walk without it. Sidious USED the cane to APPEAR weak. Does the scene in ROTS not ring a damn bell when he FAKED weakness to Mace? He likes to pretend that he is weak. Damn, Sorgo...

^ Thank you for nicely pointing that out. Unfortunately, I have no idea why you would point that out..... WHEN I AGREE WITH YOU! But like I said... If Sidious wasn't weak, why didn't he find a way out of Vader's grip? Wasn't he EMPEROR of the GALAXY and more powerful than Vader?

4. Read point two. You know, I grow tired of this. Go read all of the Star Wars works. Go to the site. Go ask any other debator on here, and they will all tell you the same. Sidious had outstanding foresight ability, but, like everything else - it faded. Also, Sidious was so intent on torturing Luke that he didn't even spare Vader a passing glance.

Sidious made a Fatal Error. Here's another thing he didn't sense: The true love Vader had for his Son. Sidious' Arrogance slapped his Intelligence and whipped into full gear. Sidious is always sensing people's emotions, but he could not sense that the man beside him had feelings for his son and that the man beside him would be his final demise? Sidious likes to underestimate his opponents... Alot...

5. Grievous took orders from Sidious. Gunray and the council took orders from Sidious. Dooku took orders from Sidious. All of the leaders of the CIS took orders from someone else... that someone is technically the leader. Also, it isn't Dooku's army. It belongs to the commerce guilds. So go prove to me that it belonged to Dooku. :P

Sidious WAS Dooku's MASTER. Dooku LED the CIS. SIDIOUS tells DOOKU what to do with the army because he is DOOKU'S MASTER. This does not mean he owns the army. Dooku made alot of his own decisions with the Army.... More than Sidious ever did before his Death.


Actually.... Do you remember Sidious giving the CIS orders to do something when Dooku was alive? No.... BUT I do remember Sidious giving orders to DOOKU on what to do. Dooku owned the Army, Not Sidious. But Sidious owned Dooku.

My point is if somehow Sidious let Dooku off to go f*ck off and be some Politican and no longer be his Master, Sidious would have ZERO say over the CIS.

And no... He is NOT Technically the Leader, because he is NOT the Leader of the CIS..... COUNT DOOKU is the LEADER of the CIS.

overlord
Originally posted by Escape81
I'm not a Sidious-fanboy. If I had an inclination to be anything, it would be a Yoda fanboy. The reason you see me defend Sidious so often is that you have some people who undermine his skills as a Force-user and so forth. When I am told that Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber skills may be equal to Sidious's, I tend to get a little. . . drastic.

Now. The point is...

1. Sidious ordered Dooku to construct the Confederacy.

2. Dooku obeys Sidious.

3. Grievous obeys Sidious.

4. Council obeys Sidious.

Holy crap! Look what that means! Oh yeah. . . it means Sidious rules the Confederacy. You certainly get drastic when it comes to Sidious and a fanboy is clearly gleaming through on this and not just because his name is repeated in more than 70% of your posts.

As for Sidious ruling, this means nothing. Sidious doesn't have the actual power, Dooku has it in this case. Sorry, you can't win every little Sidious thing. Sidious is clearly working through and Dooku happens to comply.
Dooku doesn't obey like some tool, he has a will of his own.
Dooku is still the one in position and he does as his mentor advices him to do. If Dooku actually dissagreed with something, then he would probably act out his own will.
But since this is not even the point..

Then it's safe to say that Sidious is the manipulative factor and not the actual ruler.

Compare this to George Bush being influenced by companies for example or worse. It's still he who rules the country.

But why did you dedicate so much time to this thread anyway?
Just let this little battle be handed over to Dooku as it is futile and obvious.. Don't worry, the Dooku/Sidious fanwar still is far from over.

darthsith19
Sidious does onw it. He basically owns Dooku so he owns the Confederacy.

Escape81
Sorgo, Sidious - despite his Force mastery - is still, physically, an old man. He couldn't have broken out of Vader's grip, considering Vader is (I reiterate) incredibly strong.

Overlord, Count Dooku does have a will. But he obeys his master. Sidious is his master. Not his mentor. Not his pal. Not his chum. Sidious is boss, and Dooku does what the boss says. It isn't like Dooku is taking requests. He's taking orders.

Call me a fanboy. That's fine. I'd have the guts to admit it if I were. There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy, in my opinion, other than the horrendous reputation they get. At least Sorgo has moments where he listens to logic. But I will continue to defend Sidious until he is placed on the exact level he should be. Just like if Yoda or Dooku or Mace had the public opinion that Sidious gets, I'd be out there defending them too. Fortunately, all three are held in high esteem around here.

Escape81
Also, Overlord. If you'd like me to get some quotes made by myself that prove that I state when Sidious is owned, I'll do it. You'll be eating your words if you accuse me of being a fanboy. I perceive things fairly. The fact of the matter is that Palpatine is vastly underrated here. Most people confess that they underrate him simply because they dislike him. So, I do my best to bring that public image up to the level where it belongs. Thus, I will defend him, and thus you, unfortunately, are going to have to get over it.

Let me put it to you like this. I am just as much of a fanboy as Nai Fohl, Ianus, Illustrious, or IKC. If you categorize them as fanboys, you're deluded.

overlord
You are obviously offended, I guess you fear that I'm right or something. Just read through this thread. You say his name so many times (even when not needed to state your point) that one could think you were in love with him or something.
Not to mention why this thread is just so damn important to you.

As for the topic: Sidious can order a federation, hell.. He can even select the council in question. But the council is the one that makes the actual decisions. Sidious can rock and rule all you want but it is still the leaders of the actual confederacy who are in power.
You respond to this thread as if you believe that Dooku does every little thing Sidious asks of him. Dooku has a free will. Just because Sidious can convince him, advice him or boss him around it is still Dooku who is in charge.

I'll give an example: Dooku can just decide to have nothing to do with Sidious anymore and just lead the confederacy on his own. No matter how angry Sidious gets. Dooku is granted official power and can do what ever the hell he wants.
Sidious doesn't own his apprentice as some slave who wil even kill himself for his master. Nay, Sidious is strictly a manipulative power.

If you still can't see this.. Then fill in the blanks..

Escape81
Originally posted by overlord
You are obviously offended, I guess you fear that I'm right or something. Just read through this thread. You say his name so many times (even when not needed to state your point) that one could think you were in love with him or something.
Not to mention why this thread is just so damn important to you.

As for the topic: Sidious can order a federation, hell.. He can even select the council in question. But the council is the one that makes the actual decisions. Sidious can rock and rule all you want but it is still the leaders of the actual confederacy who are in power.
You respond to this thread as if you believe that Dooku does every little thing Sidious asks of him. Dooku has a free will. Just because Sidious can convince him, advice him or boss him around it is still Dooku who is in charge.

I'll give an example: Dooku can just decide to have nothing to do with Sidious anymore and just lead the confederacy on his own. No matter how angry Sidious gets. Dooku is granted official power and can do what ever the hell he wants.
Sidious doesn't own his apprentice as some slave who wil even kill himself for his master. Nay, Sidious is strictly a manipulative power.

If you still can't see this.. Then fill in the blanks..

Erm, firstly, it would seem that it is important to you as well, as you've posted here quite a bit yourself. Ups. Also, I'm not easily offended at all. But then again, your accusations of fanboyism will be crushed if I so choose to bring out some of my evidence. Fanboyism, on the general scale, means the absence of logic. Sorgo is a god amongst fanboys, because he listens to logic more than most fanboys. I can tell you when Sidious will be owned. In fact, Faunus has a higher standard of Sidious's power than I do. So . . . might as well not bring up this point again, because I've lamented on various threads that Sidious is far from being all powerful or an uber-god. So, keep it up, and you'll eat your words. Kinda make you look like an idiot, kk? laughing out loud

Secondly, Dooku can't do whatever he wants because Sidious is his master. Sorry, but Dooku doesn't even labor under the delusion that Sidious treats him as an equal. Granted, the Count is far too clever and too skilled to be treated like a mindless minion such as Maul, but Sidious is his master. Master. Now, my point again takes the forefront, unless you're going to argue that by being a master, you mean partner and friend. wink

overlord
Yeah, sure it is important to me.. You see that only because it is the case with yourself. Don't deny that you are taking this small topic incredibly serious.

And don't worry about your fanboyism. Remember: I only said your constant Sidious talk was beginning to get annoying, yet you immediately take it to another level.

And you can stop using the exact same argument you have been using in this entire thread. You are implying that Sidious has Dooku as a slave with your definition of master. Dooku is an age old veteran and tutor himself, he is willing to accept training from Sidious all because of his own greed. Do you think Sidious disciplined Dooku? I don't think so. This Dooku's pride is too much on his own as he himself has been a tutor and 'master' of Makashi. He only goes and study under Sidious through greed.
As for ruling the confederacy.. Officially he rules it and even in his own right does he rule it. Just because Sidious is a threatening presence and a man who Dooku would consider equal doesn't mean that Sidious owns him. I still believe Sidious is just an adviser and manipulative power in ruling the confederacy. Your single repeated argument doesn't convince me otherwise.

Now I can understand that you still can't understand where I am coming from but heck, cut the Sidious owning Dooku crap.. We know this opinion of yours now and it isn't very constructive in my opinion.
Just because Sidious outwitted Dooku and manipulated him in more than Dooku could have ever known doesn't mean that Sidious automatically own Dooku as some puppet.
It may seem like this but it is logical to say that it isn't.

Oh yeah.. And just cut the arrogant nonsense with "I'll make you eat your words", just because you actually have a mind doesn't mean I'm impressed.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Escape81
Indeed. But regarding the Confederacy, it was indeed under Sidious's command. Count Dooku led the political factions of the CIS, Grievous led the military, and the Separatist Council did a mix of both, and led the commerce guilds that built the Confederacy's army. They all obeyed Sidious. I doubt it was just Count Dooku saying:

"Well, listen, you gotta obey my master or else..."

Sidious was in contact with the Separatist leaders two months after the Battle of Geonosis. Grievous took orders from Dooku, but directly obeyed Sidious. As in Labyrinth of Evil, Dooku was dishing out orders to Grievous when Sidious's hologram popped up. Dooku shut up. So did Grievous. Both didn't acknowledge eachother while their master was there. They both were rigidly controlled by him.

So, when you control the leaders of an organization, you are the true leader. The true power. Which is what Sidious was. Dead on.

Escape81
Originally posted by Tangible God
Dead on.

Thanks. Anyways, Overlord. I could take the time for my rebuttle. But considering how it would only urge you further in your accusations, just let me end it with this.

This isn't about the superiority of Count Dooku or the Emperor. This is about who leads what. Sidious had an iron grip over the Republic and the CIS. He operated through Count Dooku. It was on Sidious's orders that the Confederacy was ever established anyway. If I recall, two months after the Battle of Geonosis, Dooku revealed to the Council that he answered to a superior, and introduced them to Darth Sidious, and said that he was the true power behind the Confederacy. The important information is that Count Dooku, General Grievous, Nute Gunray, and the others all obeyed Sidious. The chain of command was Dooku, then Grievous, then Gunray and the others. But they all obeyed Sidious. If this is the case, they are simply following the chain of command. The Secretary of Defense is still beneath the Vice President in the American Chain of Command, and will take orders from him, but the Vice President's authority is superceded by the President himself, whom both take orders from. A real life analogy to compare this sort of situation to. Sidious, ultimately, controlled and directed the movements of the Confederacy.

Count Dooku was powerful, we know. We also know he has an immensely strong will and was very intelligent. But the point is this: he served Sidious. He addressed the Emperor as his "master". Furthermore, Sidious wasn't just Dooku's mentor. This relationship was a subserviant one. Dooku was a placeholder. He was a minion, in essence. Despite all of his wealth, power, and prestige, he served the Emperor. Not took advice and suggestions. You ought to know it. Even Sorgo admits that Count Dooku did indeed serve and obey Sidious.

Sorgo
Sorgo, Sidious - despite his Force mastery - is still, physically, an old man. He couldn't have broken out of Vader's grip, considering Vader is (I reiterate) incredibly strong.

Indeed, but he was one of the most powerful Force Users around... Actually, in the OT, he was the most powerful Force User around. He could have improvised something.

Overlord, Count Dooku does have a will. But he obeys his master. Sidious is his master. Not his mentor. Not his pal. Not his chum. Sidious is boss, and Dooku does what the boss says. It isn't like Dooku is taking requests. He's taking orders.

^ Wrong. I realize the Irony of the following statement: Sidious had friendships with his Apprentices. Even in ROTJ, when he is walking with Vader:

The Emperor: Rise my friend.
Darth Vader: The Death Star will be completed on schedule.
The Emperor: You've done well, Lord Vader. And now I sense you wish to continue your search for young Skywalker.
Darth Vader: Yes, my Master.
The Emperor: Patience my friend. In time he will seek *you* out, and when he does, you must bring him before me. He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force.
Darth Vader: As you wish.
The Emperor: Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.

Here is what happens if Sidious were to not be his friend or pal, but just throw orders.

The Emperor: Rise.
Darth Vader: The Death Star will be completed on schedule.
The Emperor: Good. Are you still looking for your Kid?
Darth Vader: Yes, my Master.
The Emperor: Patience. He will seek you out and you WILL bring him to me and then together we will turn him. Understand?
Darth Vader: As you wish.
The Emperor: Everything is going as I have foreseen except for the fact i'm gonna die fairly soon.
Darth Vader: What was the last bit?
The Emperor: Nothing of importance....



He calls him a friend. Of course he has to hand out Orders as the boss but i'm fairly sure they had a fine relationship that wasn't too linear in being strictly orderary.

Call me a fanboy. That's fine. I'd have the guts to admit it if I were. There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy, in my opinion, other than the horrendous reputation they get. At least Sorgo has moments where he listens to logic. But I will continue to defend Sidious until he is placed on the exact level he should be. Just like if Yoda or Dooku or Mace had the public opinion that Sidious gets, I'd be out there defending them too. Fortunately, all three are held in high esteem around here.

Yoda? Held in high esteem?


He is the most powerful entity in the PT Series and possibly in the OT series as well.

Not to mention he possibly had a winning side on their fight, But that's arguable.

Sorgo
Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, sure it is important to me.. You see that only because it is the case with yourself. Don't deny that you are taking this small topic incredibly serious.

And don't worry about your fanboyism. Remember: I only said your constant Sidious talk was beginning to get annoying, yet you immediately take it to another level.

And you can stop using the exact same argument you have been using in this entire thread. You are implying that Sidious has Dooku as a slave with your definition of master. Dooku is an age old veteran and tutor himself, he is willing to accept training from Sidious all because of his own greed. Do you think Sidious disciplined Dooku? I don't think so. This Dooku's pride is too much on his own as he himself has been a tutor and 'master' of Makashi. He only goes and study under Sidious through greed.
As for ruling the confederacy.. Officially he rules it and even in his own right does he rule it. Just because Sidious is a threatening presence and a man who Dooku would consider equal doesn't mean that Sidious owns him. I still believe Sidious is just an adviser and manipulative power in ruling the confederacy. Your single repeated argument doesn't convince me otherwise.

Now I can understand that you still can't understand where I am coming from but heck, cut the Sidious owning Dooku crap.. We know this opinion of yours now and it isn't very constructive in my opinion.
Just because Sidious outwitted Dooku and manipulated him in more than Dooku could have ever known doesn't mean that Sidious automatically own Dooku as some puppet.
It may seem like this but it is logical to say that it isn't.

Oh yeah.. And just cut the arrogant nonsense with "I'll make you eat your words", just because you actually have a mind doesn't mean I'm impressed.


Sidious didn't own Dooku? Proposterous!

Sidious OWNED Dooku. Dooku WAS Sidious' puppet. Dooku was expendable, and got expended on Episode III. He didn't expect to be expendable or manipulated OR betrayed by Sidious. Just as Sidious didn't expect Vader to kill him. Dooku honestly didn't care. He loved where he was. He was Richer than a mother f*cker, he owned the Confederacy, he could have tooled people left and right, he was a POWERFUL man and he had a f*ckin' Job working for Sidious. He liked where he was. He didn't care that he had a Master. I am sure he was happy to have someone around to give him a Job and teach him the Dark and powerful ways of the dark side. But the direct point is that Sidious did indeed own Dooku. He owned everyone in the damned PT... And in the OT, he literally owned everyone because he was the Owner of...

Drum roll


THE DAMN GALAXY!

Dooku loved his position and didn't have a problem working for Sidious but whether he knew it or not: Sidious owned him and everyone else.

overlord
I'll just leave this in the hands of Sorgo if Escape will only focus on me being annoyed by his Sidious obsessing.

Escape has already said it: "Sidious works through Dooku" but instead of Dooku being a mindless puppet, Sidious just decieved and manipulated to work out his plans. Dooku still did what he thought was right but Sidious influenced him in a way he couldn't have predicted.
I think the Dooku vs Sidious battle is very cute but we can't go to the extreme that Sidious has Dooku as slave.

Sidious manipulated Anakin to the dark side and he manipulated Dooku to work out his other plans and to even go as far as killing Dooku for them.
Dooku just didn't know about all factors of Sidious' plans and agreed unknowingly.. That's it.
Sidious actually isn't the master to Dooku, only the mentor.

Sorry, Escape.. But this little aspect of the Sidious/Dooku war is leaning towards Dooku. erm
But not to worry because I am sure the war is still far from over..

And if you still don't understand then just ask yourself to why this little aspect is just so important to you.
Because I sure as hell am not biased in this thread as you actually insinuated previously.

Escape81
Originally posted by overlord
I'll just leave this in the hands of Sorgo if Escape will only focus on me being annoyed by his Sidious obsessing.

Escape has already said it: "Sidious works through Dooku" but instead of Dooku being a mindless puppet, Sidious just decieved and manipulated to work out his plans. Dooku still did what he thought was right but Sidious influenced him in a way he couldn't have predicted.
I think the Dooku vs Sidious battle is very cute but we can't go to the extreme that Sidious has Dooku as slave.

Sidious manipulated Anakin to the dark side and he manipulated Dooku to work out his other plans and to even go as far as killing Dooku for them.
Dooku just didn't know about all factors of Sidious' plans and agreed unknowingly.. That's it.
Sidious actually isn't the master to Dooku, only the mentor.

Sorry, Escape.. But this little aspect of the Sidious/Dooku war is leaning towards Dooku. erm
But not to worry because I am sure the war is still far from over..

And if you still don't understand then just ask yourself to why this little aspect is just so important to you.
Because I sure as hell am not biased in this thread as you actually insinuated previously.

Lmfao. I think every time I counter your arguments, you claim that I have an obsession with the Emperor. So, lol. I'll just direct you to the post above, to Sorgo.

If you wanna go toe-to-toe with me, Overlord, you're going to have to have more skill in your arsenal. No offense, but each and every time, I use logic that negates all of your points - so then you say I have a Sidious obsession. Notice a pattern? When you think you can have a mature debate with me, lol, we'll talk. But until then, just go on and ramble whatever you want. wink

overlord
All I see from you is some bluffing and focusing on my 'being annoyed' with your Sidious obsession. But don't worry.. I see you have bettered yourself with that.
Though you may use your Sids avathar again instead of some default one.
I guess I influenced you or something with your sudden anti Sidious posts too.. OMG! That must mean that I rule your too!

To add something to the thread again: (couldn't resist) I think that if Sidious already bossed his apprentices around without logic instead of discipline them that that would be more with Anakin than Dooku. Anakin really obeys at times but Dooku himself is already a proud and respectable man. Dooku really did lead the confederacy as he was a politically minded person and he actually really did dissagree with the way the universe was ruled. I don't get why you can't understand that he isn't somebody who just sits around passing around orders from Sidious.

But you can just keep posting stubbornly by making arrogant statements and keep using one single argument wich has been replied to for more than fifty times but ignored every time by you.

Don't accuse me of what you are doing now.

Shadow x 20
I can't believe people are agruing about who owned the Confederacy when it was only around for 3 years.

Escape81
Originally posted by Shadow x 20
I can't believe people are agruing about who owned the Confederacy when it was only around for 3 years.

Lmao. Each time I make a counter to Overlord's little posts, he calls me a Sidious fanboy.

Oh, and Overlord. As I said, I've been honest about Sidious's level of power for quite some time. You've actually influenced nothing. Only in your little mind.

One could easily accuse you of arrogance, as well. wink

Escape81
Oh, but simply because I know how you're going to respond, I'll do the mature thing and I hope you can compensate.

So let us begin.

1. Firstly, Count Dooku was not a mindless slave. I never, once, accused him of being that way. Dooku is exceptionally clever, and was a gifted political idealist. But he was Sidious's apprentice. You know how certain words (ie: "my friend"wink identify a relationship? It does the same here. Dooku, on various occasions, addressed Sidious as "Master". I don't know about you, but I don't address my mentor as "master". I don't take orders from my mentor. Sidious was more than a mentor to Dooku. He was his master, else he would not address the Dark Lord as such. Deal with it. Sidious was his master. Dooku was the apprentice and he obeyed all of Sidious's commands.

2. Secondly, Vader has proven to be more rebellious than Dooku. Vader has strong will himself, and disobeyed Sidious before, but was berated and punished. It is in Vader's nature to be the rebel. Dooku had the rebellious nature, but to a far lesser degree. Like Maul before him, Dooku was a subordinate. He did not work for Sidious. He didn't receive pay. Dooku was Sidious's apprentice, and though he wasn't a slave - he did not disobey his master's orders. Thus, Sidious reigned over Dooku.

3. Count Dooku disagreed with the way the Republic ruled. Not with the way Sidious ruled. Only when he was embraced by the Dark Side, was he made aware of Sidious's intent. So he agreed. But he did not disagree with his master, much. Only respectfully.

4. I reiterate. Publicly, Count Dooku led the Confederacy. But ultimately, the orders came from Sidious. As Ush said. All of the leaders obeyed Sidious, thus the true command was with Sidious. Sorry, if you can't accept that.

overlord
Originally posted by Escape81
Oh, but simply because I know how you're going to respond, I'll do the mature thing and I hope you can compensate.

So let us begin.

1. Firstly, Count Dooku was not a mindless slave. I never, once, accused him of being that way. Dooku is exceptionally clever, and was a gifted political idealist. But he was Sidious's apprentice. You know how certain words (ie: "my friend"wink identify a relationship? It does the same here. Dooku, on various occasions, addressed Sidious as "Master". I don't know about you, but I don't address my mentor as "master". I don't take orders from my mentor. Sidious was more than a mentor to Dooku. He was his master, else he would not address the Dark Lord as such. Deal with it. Sidious was his master. Dooku was the apprentice and he obeyed all of Sidious's commands.Yes, you only have the word master as argument. Well, I call my painting tutor master but that doesn't mean he can boss me around in everything I do.
On the political part; Sidious gave advice and manipulated.

Let's not stray off topic shall we? As for Dooku not dissobeying Sidious.. Maybe he did at some times. It's irrelevent nonetheless.
We are talking Dooku's ruling the confederacy.

Yes, he didn't agree with the republic and he still didn't just sit on his ass passing around Sidious' orders. Dooku had control over the confederacy and ruled politically and as for the plans of Sidious wich included the confederacy he agreed with most of the time of course because he thought it was in his interest as well. He did not know that Sidious wasn't telling him all.
No, the true command is Dooku and it doesn't matter if Sidious worked through him as Dooku agreed with Sidious' advice and plans for the universe. And I can accept anything as I am not part of your forum wide battle with Sorgo but you just don't convince me here whether you like it or not.

But if everything would have worked out then Sidious would have definately ruled the universe with Dooku below him. But Dooku would have had a lot more political influence than Anakin would have ever had and therefor Dooku agreed with the grand plot.
But at the time being; it was still Sidious who held the republic and Dooku who owned the confederacy.

Now overall.. You may think that my answers are simple. But just consider that you may indeed be wrong and that the answer is just plain simple.

Escape81
I have considered the possibility.

Sidious didn't give advice. He issued commands.

overlord
You would like to assume that he commanded Dooku don't you?

As for your incredible discussing skills.. I think you are just being stubborn to win this little battle hence why you change discussion style and ignore almost every point again. I should probably let Sorgo continue this as I am not really impressed by the few points stated once in a while.

Tangible God
When a Private takes orders from a Corporal, that means the Corporal is in command.

When the Corporal takes orders from a Sargeant, that means the Sargeant is in command.

When the Sargeant takes orders from Colonel, that means the Colonel is in command.

When Dooku, Grievous, and the Separtist Council takes orders from Sidious, that means Sidious is in command.

overlord
Yeah, well you obvious haven't read any arguments to the contrary so your post will just be ignored.

Tangible God
Like hell I'm reading all those.

Escape81
Interesting that everyone, aside from Sorgo, has agreed with me, Overlord. Maybe I'm not the one who's wrong after all . . . roll eyes (sarcastic)

Escape81
Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, well you obvious haven't read any arguments to the contrary so your post will just be ignored.

Oh, and who are you to decide what posts shall be ignored and what posts shall not be ignored? Lol, it would seem that my arrogance has rubbed off on you.

Hypocrite. Lmao.

Sorgo
Dooku was the Leader of the Army. Sidious was not. Sidious owned the Leader of that army so he had say. If Sidious did not have power over Dooku, it would be Dooku's Army, do you understand?

I have heard in no Book, No movie, not from Lucas or from a Databank that Sidious is an OFFICIAL LEADER of the CIS.

Sidious OWNED Dooku who OWNED the Army. Get it? So Sidious had say, but it was Dooku's bloody army.

SnakeEyes
Yeah, I understand what you're saying Sorgo, but does that really matter? I mean, I think everyone knows (as you stated) that Sidious owned the leader of the army (Dooku). So what signifigance does the fact that Dooku held control over the army have, when Sidious indirectly had control of it AND Dooku.

Don't get me wrong, I fully know that Dooku was the leader of the army, but if Sidious wanted anything done with that army, it would happen. Dooku, in my opinion, merely a pawn in Palpatine's plan. Him owning the army doesn't really have any relevance, considering that he would mostly do just what Sidious wanted. Again, I don't want to be misunderstood though; Dooku is an awesome character and I like him a lot, but does this topic merit a thread?

If you were just trying to point out to the noobs, however, that Dooku did, in fact, own the CIS, then I guess I see the point.

Captain REX
*reads through*

Sorgo, you seemed to have completely changed your point. blink

Tangible God
Hitler technically OWNED Rommel, but it was Rommel's damn army, right?

Doesn't matter, Hitler was still the master, the ruler, the controller. The only difference is that Hitler couldn't use the Force to sense or punish Rommel for doing something against his orders.

Sorgo
The bottom line is: You people continue you to say Sidious technically owned the Army when the fact is that he Technically didn't!

Of course... He somewhat subliminally owned the Army through Dooku, but fact being it was Dooku's Army OFFICIALLY.

overlord
Originally posted by Tangible God
Hitler technically OWNED Rommel, but it was Rommel's damn army, right?

Doesn't matter, Hitler was still the master, the ruler, the controller. The only difference is that Hitler couldn't use the Force to sense or punish Rommel for doing something against his orders. You can't compare it with that. Hitler was the ruler of government Rommel was part of.

And to continue for the thread: Sidious was Dooku's tutor in the ways of the dark side and also his chum although he eventually decieved him (this was the manipulation) and Sidious always held respect and a friend like relationship with both Dooku and Anakin.
Sidious ruled the republic and had to focus his political ruling there. Dooku ruled the confederacy wich wasn't part of the republic. When Dooku came in command; he ruled it till his death no matter whether he agreed with the plan Sidious had deviced or not. Dooku didn't sit on his butt just taking orders.

Think about it. What would Dooku's motivation be to just let Sidious boss him around while he was himself indeed politically minded.
Dooku agreed with the plans of Sidious wich had a role in his leading the confederacy and Dooku learned the ways of the dark side under Sidious. Sidious didn't in fact rule Dooku's whole life. Is this so weird?

Captain REX
Originally posted by Sorgo
Of course... He somewhat subliminally owned the Army through Dooku, but fact being it was Dooku's Army OFFICIALLY.

Well, duh. We established that in Ush and my first posts. Ultimately, the army belonged to Sidious, officially, it belonged to Dooku.

Tangible God
By title, and "officiality," Dooku was the leader. But if that leader is under the command of someone else, then that Someone Else is the mastermind, and LEADER behind it all.

SnakeEyes
Originally posted by Sorgo
Of course... He somewhat subliminally owned the Army through Dooku, but fact being it was Dooku's Army OFFICIALLY.

Somewhat? wink

He completely subliminally owned the Army through Dooku. Dooku DID own the army officially, but who cares? He still did whatever Palpy wanted him to do. As far as I can tell, the only reason Sidious didn't "officially" own the army, is because he didn't want to be revealed to the public, yet. Either way, he still controlled Dooku, who in turn did what Sidious wanted him to do with that army.

MC_GG
To summariz it, Sidious used Dooku to create an army for The Republic (Which becomes the Empire at the end of Episode III). He knew that Dooku would die while battling with Anakin. So basically Sidious wanted Anakin to join him because he knew that Anakin would one day take over Sidious' place after Sidious dies. Sidious had planned this all along ever since TPM.

Sorgo
Originally posted by MC_GG
To summariz it, Sidious used Dooku to create an army for The Republic (Which becomes the Empire at the end of Episode III). He knew that Dooku would die while battling with Anakin. So basically Sidious wanted Anakin to join him because he knew that Anakin would one day take over Sidious' place after Sidious dies. Sidious had planned this all along ever since TPM.

He didn't know that Anakin would kill Dooku. He was testing Anakin. He had alot of worried looks on his face during that fight.

overlord
Yeah, seriously people, be a bit more open minded.
Sidious and Dooku probably had a good friendship and equal respect towards another. Dooku didn't sit on his ass taking orders, he agreed as with Sidious because he trusted him and could gain much himself. C'mon, he even thought they were going to get little Anakin with all their plans.
To just say; "Sidious gives orders!!!" What does the thread need with that? Sidious betrayed Dooku but Dooku thought the plans were to his best interest aswell!

But let's put it like this: What would the confederacy do if they got contradicting orders from Dooku and Sidious?
I'm just saying that Dooku ruled it officially + with a mind of his own.

To just say that Sidious rules all because he manipulated Dooku is just narrow-minded and useless.

Escape81
You use the term probably a lot, thus signifying that you have no proof. It is confirmed, Overlord. Dooku was Sidious's apprentice, and Sidious was Dooku's master. He is master by title - and Dooku addresses him as such. There is no 'probably' about it. The facts overwhelm your speculation. Dooku took orders, and yes - he did have a mind of his own - no one has ever denied that. But the fact is he still took orders and did not conflict with his master's wishes - thus he was the subordinate.

Sorry, Overlord.

Dooku took orders from Sidious. PERIOD.

overlord
I use that term a lot because I don't state things like facts like most, as it all doesn't exist anyway. Just look at the versus Forum; it's one big bunch of speculation but somehow all discussions were stopped due to people's aggression when it comes to their views of SW.
It even came to such a rediculous point that actually the majority of the people here believed that Darth Vader as master duellist could be beaten by a younger less experienced and hot headed Vader.

But you don't discuss right in this thread. First you bluf around about how great you are at discussing and then when I am drawn into this pointless battle you suddenly try to evade every argument given to support my views or to debunk your arguments.
Suddenly you only focus on the fanboy comment I made and get extremely upset about it and then after a while of ignoring me you return with the same single argument you have constantly used wich is that Sidious orders Dooku.
I have tried to discuss this but you only return with that same line.

I conclude by this that you don't want to discuss but only want to have the last word because why else would it be so important that you say the same thing over and over again?
Point is: you don't come across convincing with these poor arguing skills and you don't want to see my points.

Now this may look harsh but it is what I conclude about your comments.

Escape81
Originally posted by overlord
I use that term a lot because I don't state things like facts like most, as it all doesn't exist anyway. Just look at the versus Forum; it's one big bunch of speculation but somehow all discussions were stopped due to people's aggression when it comes to their views of SW.
It even came to such a rediculous point that actually the majority of the people here believed that Darth Vader as master duellist could be beaten by a younger less experienced and hot headed Vader.

But you don't discuss right in this thread. First you bluf around about how great you are at discussing and then when I am drawn into this pointless battle you suddenly try to evade every argument given to support my views or to debunk your arguments.
Suddenly you only focus on the fanboy comment I made and get extremely upset about it and then after a while of ignoring me you return with the same single argument you have constantly used wich is that Sidious orders Dooku.
I have tried to discuss this but you only return with that same line.

I conclude by this that you don't want to discuss but only want to have the last word because why else would it be so important that you say the same thing over and over again?
Point is: you don't come across convincing with these poor arguing skills and you don't want to see my points.

Now this may look harsh but it is what I conclude about your comments.

Then why, may I ask, O Great Lord of Debating, that everyone here other than Sorgo has agreed with me, and not with you? Kinda funny. big grin

Escape81
So.

a) I never said I was 'great' at debating. I merely implied that in this instance, you were failing to provide proof whereas I wasn't.

b) You called me a fanboy, and I refuted it with the fact that I have proof against your claims. I merely wished to put an end to that unruly accusation, and I did.

c) You claim that Sidious and Dooku were friends and Sidious was only his mentor. You also failed to provide proof on this theory, whereas it specifically states - in all Lucasfilm works - that Sidious is Dooku's master (I suggest that you familiarize yourself with that term), and Dooku takes orders (familarize yourself with that one, too) from Sidious. Thus, I have proof where you fail to provide it.

d) Count Dooku was the political head of the Confederacy. General Grievous was its military commander. The Separatist Council consisted of the leaders of the commerce guilds bound to the Confederacy. This represented the leadership of the CIS. All of it. Now, all of them take orders from Sidious. All have been in contact with Sidious. He worked through Dooku, Grievous, and the others. Ultimately, the CIS was completely in Sidious's control.

e) This isn't about Count Dooku and Darth Sidious and which one was better. It has nothing to do with it. But, Dooku took orders from Sidious. He and Sidious were more equal to one another on the intellect and experience level than Sidious and Maul, but it doesn't change the facts. First and foremost, Dooku was Sidious's apprentice, and he took orders.

f) You and Sorgo are also the only two who agree. So, clearly, my poor debating skills must've got the point across somewhere.


And they all lived happily ever after.

overlord
a) Yes, you implied it but what were the motives anyway?
Bluffing me out of a discussion?

b) Well, I see that these days you act like anything but a fanboy so consider the comment withdrawn. You still took it a little to seriously though. It's like you felt attacked by that petty word.

c) Your proof is just the word master and claiming that Dooku takes orders wich I dissagreed with and I had to repeat my arguments constantly without any response. Do remember that you are allowed to go into your view much deeply than just saying "He has been called master thus he rules and owns all"
Because if I would change my opinion it certainly wouldn't be by your petty posts.

d) I have been stuck to repeating my arguments constantly when it comes to Dooku following orders, you have ignored them. Should I go type them all again or should I quote them? (omg, check below for yet another summary)

e) You say they had mutual respect but you see this as the same relationship as with Maul. I dissagree with this. Dooku had his own political ambitions and would never let Sidious run all aspects of his life therefor I say that Sidious manipulated Dooku greatly and made him think that all these plans were in Dooku's best interest too as wich would be able to happen in friendly relations with mutual respect.
Dooku's pride was enormous and he is a swordsmaster in his own right but he still let Sidious teach him in the arts of the dark side because it was in his own best interest, so in that case he put his pride away.

f) That is a delusion of grandeur. stick out tongue
They already had set their minds and you don't have anything to do with that, sorry.

Escape81
a) Merely proving a point.

b) Thought so.

c) You 'disagree' with the fact that Dooku took orders? Lmao! I guess that whole master-apprentice relationship was just a show. This is funny. Lol, you have the petty arguements:

"[email protected]!! Doku calls Sids his MASTER but he [email protected] isn1 becuz I sed so becuz I don1 like 2 beleve that Sidz gave ub3r-c00l Doku orderz becuz Doku wuz a strong willed [email protected]!

That's all you are saying. Doesn't matter. Gunray was a businessman. Despite being a coward, he still took orders from Sidious. Grievous was a strong willed man, and he also took orders from Sidious. So please shut the hell up. Doesn't matter if Dooku has strong will or not. The point is, he's Sidious's b!tch. I didn't ever state that Dooku was ruled completely by Sidious, but he is governed and obeys him. He is his MASTER.

So let me emphasis:

Sidious (Sith Master) was the BOSS/MASTER of Dooku (Apprentice)!

d) You have no arguement. All you say is that Sidious and Dooku were partners. Then why does Dooku call Sidious 'MASTER'? Is logic a foreign concept to you?

e) He 'let' Sidious teach him? Dooku bowed down to Sidious and accepted his tutelage, but also accepted the fact that Sidious was his master. Hello.... MASTER.

f) Lmao. Well, Overlord. Apparently, everyone agrees with me. This needs to be a little message. You're wrong. If anyone has the petty arguement, it's YOU.

overlord
Wow, did I anger you or something?

okay.. Here we go:
a) Answer my question again. Do you intend on bluffing me out of it so your ego can be stroked?

b) So, why did you only respond to that then?

c) "Lmao!" Learned a new word or something?
And the response with sarcasm makes you seem scared again. Do you think I'll chicken out of this because you try to degrade me?

The rest is just the same again but this time you include "so shut the hell up" and you make your one argument larger.

d) You obviously don't want to get it, you are merely a stubborn guy who needs to win at all costs. To you Master seems to mean that Dooku is indeed a slave who let's Sidious control his whole life. Do not compare the world of SW to this world though, if they had mutual respect as you admitted then Dooku ever saying "master" would that he expresses his respect towards him.
But do not forget that Dooku was an apprentice on the field of the dark side. I call my painting master also "master." This doesn't mean that he rules my life.
Sidious just had a close friendship with Dooku aswell as he had with all others and manipulated Dooku by not telling all with his advice.
Dooku was actually politically minded and ruled the confederacy as what is the topic of this thread, he agreed with plans because he thought it was also in his best interest.
Apperantly he was wrong. Hence why I say he was manipulated and decieved.

e) Hello master? You place such value on one word. Your whole view of Star Wars depends on it.. Please elaborate instead of discussing this poorly.

f) The whole world could say that Water consists out of blood. It wouldn't make it a fact though. Of course the world of SW isn't real but my point is that you just don't convince me with one little argument.
And if you don't feel the need to convince me of your opinion, then why repeat it for ever? Is it a pride thing?

Tangible God
Oh, Shit...another argument about the skills and requirements of debates.

overlord
Originally posted by Tangible God
Oh, Shit...another argument about the skills and requirements of debates. Maybe you could debate with me?
Because I love this kind of stuff! Especially when people get all angry.

Oh, wait.. You are just prejudiced towards me..
You don't even have any arguments for your opinions.

Tangible God
Originally posted by overlord
Maybe you could debate with me?
Because I love this kind of stuff! Especially when people get all angry.

Oh, wait.. You are just prejudiced towards me.. You don't even have any arguments for your opinions. I'm leaving that to Escape.

And I would only NOW be prejudiced towards you for this comment.

overlord
Originally posted by Tangible God
I'm leaving that to Escape.

And I would only NOW be prejudiced towards you for this comment. C'mon.. If you guys are so sure about this topic you should be able to question my arguments hence turning into a probable debate.

Tangible God
Originally posted by overlord
C'mon.. If you guys are so sure about this topic you should be able to question my arguments hence turning into a probable debate. Ah I already have a few pages back, I'm not gonna repeat myself, Escape seems fine with it though.

overlord
You really think so? huh

But I would still like some better competition..
I could just as well create a sock and argue better in your place but the point is that I believe otherwise and at least I have elaborated.

Why else would Sorgo have opened this topic anyway? To get owned?
I don't think so.


I think Dooku and Sidious both had a fair share in decieving the whole galaxy without Dooku just following orders. Sidious just ended up being the more intelligent one.

Tangible God
Oh definetley it was a fair share. And I doubt very much that Sidious made every decision. But he had least had to approve of the major ones. I'm not talking about battles or invasions either.

The whole fake kidnapping, I don't know whose idea it was, but Palpatine had to agree with it.

Palpatine approaced Dooku though, to become a Sith, but who's to say that Dooku didn't come up with the Confederacy idea? He MAY even have come up with the Clone idea.

By title, and public knowledge, yes, Dooku DID own the CIS. Yet Dooku took orders, no matter how erroneous they may be, from Palpatine, though without the masses' knowledge. If Palpatine demanded something of the CIS, or Dooku, or Grievous, they did it.

That makes Palpatine, the unofficial, the secretive, the unknown to all except the Jedi, yet absolute, leader of the Confederacy.

overlord
Some good points in contribution to the thread indeed.

But IMO, the commands are more like favors and agreements out of mutual interests and mostly due to their respect for one another and Dooku's pride.

Sidious did indeed have friendly relationships with his apprentices and I think that with Dooku this was most of all the case because of both being veteran tutors.

But as Dooku was a political guy, I believe that he wasn't bossed around on that part of his life. Of course when it comes to the actual sith part he was disciplined by Sidious because that is what one needs when being an apprentice.

I just believe that for the rest they just were equal conspirators with Sidious just being the most devious although it's usually the apprentice who succeeds the master.

Tangible God
In MY opinion, I just can't see these two collaborating like Ike and Montgomery.

I don't dispute their obvious friendship. I'm great friends with my boss at work, yet if he tells me to do something, I have to do it.

Though for Dooku, the punishment for insubordination wouldn't be being let go...he'd die. Sidious would kill him if Dooku refused to listen to Sidious, that's why Palpatine is the master.

I can't, however, see Palpatine ordering Dooku around like a common grunt.

In a nutshell, I see the two associating like business partners. They listen to each other's ideas and comments. But when it comes to the final word, Palpatine will have his way, whether it was his idea or Dooku's he wants executed.

overlord
Yes, exactly but it's probable that Dooku ruled the confederacy in his own right with his own manipulation of worlds and people (like what he tried with Obi Wan in AotC) and that Dooku and Sidious both kept their attention to their own political manipulation whilst actually collaborating and having an even higher aim.

I do agree however that Sidious had more skills in convincing and such but that Dooku just trusted Sidious too much in their grand scheme like what would have happened with the whole kidnapping of Palpatine and such.

And Sidious was of course the tutor of Dooku in the ways of the sith but I believe that Dooku's pride only let Sidious discipline him at that but would not accept commands in the ruling of the confederacy. In that part they were more like devious allies.

Tangible God
You don't know that Dooku refused Sidious's orders.

overlord
Well actually the SW database even states that the neimodians were even just adviced by Sidious to go to Mustafar..
And on the case of Dooku building the confederacy they don't grant Sidious any input at all! But I'm not that official in this topic.. I view it as though Sidious had a major influence on Dooku with their friendship.

Tangible God
Originally posted by overlord
I view it as though Sidious had a major influence on Dooku with their friendship. That's actually pretty much how I feel. Just also, if Sidious gave a direct order, it was executed.

Ezekiel
How could an argument like this expand so many pages when the concept is quite simple to grasp.

Dooku had complete and utter Leadership over the Confederacy. Sidious downright owned Dooku, so that means that Sidious could tell THE LEADER OF THE CONFEDERACY to do whatever he wanted him to do.

Sidious didn't lead the Army technically. Although he did lead it through Dooku and took full throttle control after Sidious' death.

Lightsnake
Dooku in name ruled the Confederacy, but Sidious controlled Dooku...Grievous had the military, Dooku had Grievous, Sidious had Dooku....a lot of planning was Dooku, but Sidious did a hell of a lot more...the comics show this greatly.

overlord
Well.. According to various database sources, Dooku first lead the separatists movement while being a dark jedi and then became a follower of the sith cult.
The database somehow doesn't give Sidious any credit at all for the actions of the confederacy. It only states Dooku forming the confederacy of independant planets with various political parties and him plotting attacks while nobody expected it.

And since Sidious being a decieving bastard and still having to lure Dooku in to following the sith religion, I think it's highly probable that Sidious didn't actually rule Dooku on the political part because of Dooku's pride and the supposed friendship but that he just adviced and plotted with.

Lightsnake
Oh, in the comic series Republic which depicts the Clone Wars, Dooku is shown to report directly to Sidious...didn't Dooku only start the CIS after he joined the Sith?

overlord
Yeah, but the sepetarists already were threatening to split up the galaxy according to the database but before the actual meeting on Geonosis with all the other parties, Dooku was suddenly a follower of the sith cult.
I don't think Dooku would've needed Sidious to become so influencial since the jedi already didn't expect him to gear up for war.

But what Dooku imagined to be the role of the sepetarists in the grand plot is uncertain to me. I don't know if he actually believed that Sidious would let himself be captured just to let them take over the universe.

Lightsnake
Right, but even before Geonosis, years before, Dooku was Sidious's man

overlord
He did leave the jedi to form the sepetarists because of being unsatisfied with the corrupt way's of how the universe was run.
It is stated that he became the leader before being lured in to following the ways of the dark side.

But yeah, I've actually debated Dooku's pride and loyalty already for a good number of pages. I think I must just keep it at my opinion that Sidious only disciplined him at the ways of the sith and being chums at the rest..
erm

Lightsnake
Well, Dooku was a very strong Sith...one of the best we've seen. As a duelist, he was nearly unmatched and it's been a longstanding debate of him vs. Exar Kun in a duel match. The guy was as proud as they come...as for loyalty....when Sidious was vulnerable he didn't finish him off, that'd take a bit of loyalty, or foresight...in Dark Rendevous he does know it'll be him or Sidious one day, hence his attempted recruition of Obi-wan

overlord
Yeah, he could've killed Sidious when he had the chance because most sith eventually do that but because of strong signs of friendship between pupils I am lead to believe that it was just an agreement to get captured by Grievous.
Only Maul was a typical weapon of Sidious' disposal and when it comes to Vader, he did befriended him but Palpatine became official leader over everything by then so Vader had to comply.
But Vader was never as politically minded as Dooku and Dooku was a proud tutor himself. I figure he only let Sidious train him for his own greed in becoming stronger but wouldn't allow Sidious to order him around at what has been his life; namely the political ambitions.

Lightsnake
IMO, Dooku needed Sidious for the whole 'Dark Order' thing....yes, it is confirmed Sidious planned his Grievous capture....and Dooku referred to Sidious as his master numerous times. He was definitely the apprentice and he knew it.

overlord
Yeah, but the word master is taken much too serious in English. I call my painting instructor master for example and I compare it to Dooku calling him that out of respect and because he studies under him.
But I wouldn't let my teacher order me around at my whole life, neither would Dooku.. But they were indeed close just like Anakin was so that Sidious indeed had some influence but not in a master/slave relationship.
I wouldn't be able to see his motives to becoming student again anyway to just be slave like and let Sidious rule him at everything he lived for. Dooku's pride wouldn't let him become a student again just so easily after so many years of being a teacher and certainly not with Sidious controlling him. But it has clearly been shown that Sidious treats his apprentices with very much respect and Dooku's greed would have allowed him to begin training again.

Lightsnake
Sidious didn't exactly treat Maul very well...then again, he was a special case...and I believe Dooku thought of himself as the student in a new art...at least for4 the time being

overlord
Yeah, I think we should conclude this thread with that..

Every aspect has been thoroughly discussed by now and I can't make up a new contribution for probably a long time being.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.